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Hey everybody. Welcome to the Soapy Box. I'm Denaee Bell, Nicole Hrenick and Tyler Bell joining me remotely in Arizona to discuss the story of Gypsy Rose Blanchard. I became interested in a story a couple years ago when I watched the movie, the Act on Hulu, and we just finished watching the documentary called The Prison Confessions of Gypsy Rose Blanchard on Lifetime. Um, I watched it through Amazon Prime, but I think there's a variety of ways you could watch it. And I suggest you watch, either if you're not familiar with the story before watching this, or we we're gonna ruin it for you, for those of you who just need an update, gypsy Rose Blanchard's, this young woman who had been abused her entire life by numerous people, but primarily her mother. And I would argue that her mother was probably a psychopath. And her story is just this tragic true crime story that took over the nation when it was happening. And again, now the reason is she's just being released from prison and going on a, i I would say a media tour, right? Nicole. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So anyway, the story is her and her boyfriend Nicholas Godejohn, orchestrated this murder of her mother, Dee Dee Blanchard. Deedee, the mom had manipulated and abused Gypsy her entire life. She convinced family members, members of the public, medical professionals that Gypsy had these severe illnesses. And in reality, I think Gypsy was just a form of Munchausen syndrome by proxy, which is when a caregiver induces or fabricates illness in usually a child, I would guess, or somebody that, you know, somebody they take care of. It could be an elderly person as well, I guess, right? Mm-Hmm. . So, um, and it, through the stories, it seems like she did actually make gypsy sick sometimes. Right. And by poisoning her doing different things, it sounded like she had some roundup and, uh, deedee might have possibly even killed her mother-in-law or stepmother. And so the documentary, it seems like Gypsy might have had some illnesses early on, and that possibly mom liked the attention or maybe some of the financial incentives that came from that. But it seems later on in her life, there was definitely financial incentives that Mom couldn't let go of. And so Gypsy really wanted to escape her mom's control. And her and this Nicholas Gaja went down a pretty dark road to plan, uh, the killing of Didi . So, , the good news is, from all of this is it really shed some light on the Munch Hasen by proxy syndrome. And, you know, as we have discussed privately and now here on a podcast, it's, it's important to know 'cause maybe somebody in your life is doing this to one of your loved ones. So we're gonna take off and dive right in and start our discussion. And I want to start with Gypsy's abuse. I thought we would start with Dee dee Blanchard, the mom, since she was her primary abuser. What was your guys' take on her? Well, I think you covered it pretty well. I would say she was mentally ill, potentially psychopathic, and, um, yeah, just really troubled human being that took advantage of her daughter in a pretty horrible way. Mm-Hmm. agreed And eventually reached her demise, from said Kid . Yes. She was depicted pretty horribly, I guess I would say, on both shows. Mm-Hmm. , I just recently watched the, the documentary, the Lifetime documentary, so I'm, you know, that's more in my mind. But she was really abusive and it seemed to grow in time. And as the financial need, grew. So did she, I know the Hulu series, the Act, um, definitely tamed down who Didi was based on the actual documentary. And I think that it was a little bit harsher in reality than it was on the show. Yeah. The Act was mostly based on the court records. It wasn't actually made by the family, like the documentary Was. Yeah. Yeah. So Gypsy was abused in every way imaginable. Is there any other abuses you guys picked up on? I would say every, yeah. Everyone imaginable, emotionally, physically, spiritually. Mm-Hmm. , um, especially spiritually, I feel like. Yeah. Spiritually, which was a strange one that wasn't mentioned. Yeah. On Hulu. Um, the act, it was, uh, that her mom Deedee put a hex on Gypsy, which was really strange and said that nobody's gonna love her. And I so strange, like, from a Christian valued family to have a mom do that to her daughter. I wonder if mom did have Christian values though, because she was kind of in the voodoo stuff. She did other voodoo hexes too. This was, and you know, that's not really part of Christianity. , in fact, I think they call that witchcraft, right? . But she, she, she did tell Gypsy that she'd never find love and she'd never be happy. And can you imagine telling a child that, like what does that do to a child, like spiritually and emotionally, right? That, yeah. Just another form of emotional abuse as well. I think the emotional abuse from her mom started really early. I think one of the first things I remembered was that she blamed Gypsy for her parents' divorce because she wasn't a boy, which was an obvious lie. Yeah, for sure. I think, I think it was, she had like no shot Gypsy did by the manipulation that her mom was giving her. Like, there was no chance besides what actually happened for her to, you know, understand what was happening. You know, I think it was just a manipulation to alienate her from her father. And, you know, the dad clearly did say that he left, 'cause they met when he was 17, and she said she was 21, but she was actually 23. mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . So, I mean, mom has a history of lying and manipulating. Yeah. So she did get pregnant on purpose too. Did I understand that properly? Um, I didn't know that. Sure. I'm not sure about That. Oh, maybe I made that up. Might not have done . So, um, another way that I noticed that she was constantly manipulating and controlling her was she would be telling her throughout the, her life that her life expectancy was shortened. So she was gonna be only live to be seven or 13 or 20, depending on how old she was. Yeah. And then she'd go change her age too crazy. And others as well. I think the goal there was financial remuneration, right. So she could continue to collect and do all the crazy things she was doing to get attention. But also, you know, they got a house built for them by Habitat for Humanity because of gypsy's illnesses. Yeah. I mean, they deceived a whole community of people. Isn't that crazy? And I mean, it is, you know, uh, we don't know how much Gypsy knew about herself at that time, how aware she was of herself. Mm-Hmm. . And what was actually wrong with her, even if she did know, like all she knew was to please her mom. Like the only person in her life. Yes. I mean, she was the main character in her life, and so pleasing her would be of utmost importance. , she grows up, she has this wheelchair, doesn't really need it. Family sees this on occasion, right? Mm-Hmm. , different people are seeing different things. I think Gypsy was abandoned by many people who could have helped her along the way. Many of knew who, what was going on from doctors to relatives. Why do you think nobody said anything? I think it's really hard and really sensitive of a thing to call somebody out for and holds somebody accountable to, especially mom that has devoted and framed herself to look so, um, like the best mom in the entire world. I think it would be hard to challenge somebody like that who prides themself on that. And specifically for people that have maybe a hint or an inkling of it, it would be such a strange thing to call somebody out for, you know what I mean? Um, because I think a lot of people do put a lot of pride in their parent ship. I think it would be too, on some level, because people are kinda protective of their parenting, whether they're good or not. and people can be volatile. And I see that, you know, she was manipulative and moved from city to city, I think, to hide a lot of this manipulation. But there were some constants in our life that I saw. I think he was a cousin and he, you know, they talked about she'd show up in a wheelchair, but then they'd go jump on a trampoline and she didn't need the wheelchair anymore. I mean, there were adults who saw this. There were people who saw this and did nothing. I mean, if you, if you look at the family and kind of like assess what that, how that family operates, I would imagine that they're not the most emotionally mature people, you know, and know how to hit, like, um, be involved in like really tough, controversial, rugged family, uh, dynamics. You know what I mean? You know, they don't seem like the type that would speak up about it. Would we speak up about it? You know? Yeah. I, I really thought about this a lot, thinking how nobody spoke up. Like nobody said anything. And people were obviously aware, but nobody really said anything. Nobody kicked down doors. I think they might've been afraid of her. I'm thinking of a similar situation in somebody that I, um, had suspected would poss was possibly abusing their children in maybe even a similar way. Mm-Hmm. . And it's really a weird thing to think somebody would poison their children on purpose. Right? It's a really hard thing to like stand up to Mm-Hmm. to a parent that frames themself to the whole world and manipulated everybody around them to think that they're a good parent. I mean, imagine telling, like, if you weren't like a, like didn't have like concrete hard evidence of it happening, it would be really hard to be like to, to tell them like, oh, you're, you're hurting or poisoning your kid when there's no like, evidence. And they like, you know what I mean? Even if you knew, I, I agree with you. It's the, the part that I have a problem with, like with the cousins and, and maybe even the grandparents, and we'll get to granddad in a minute, but the problem I have is it was so obvious they Yeah. She, they knew Mm-Hmm. . Like, they knew. They, they came out and said, we knew, you know, she showed up on in a wheelchair and then she could jump, you know, they knew and she would be really sick, but when she came over, she was fine. Mm-Hmm. . And so that's bothersome to me. Yeah. And then we, we have the granddad who even maybe confirmed some of those thoughts, , but he may have had a vested interest too, in keeping quiet. I wonder if they just didn't even know what steps to take next, or if they just thought that they had to deal with it as like a family dynamic. Or maybe grandpa didn't want his secret coming out. Yeah. That he was molesting gypsy. Anybody that watched the documentary saw how suspicious that man looked, and Yes. Could see that he was lying through his teeth. You know, Gypsy did accuse grandpa of sexually abusing her. And that was not mentioned in the Hulu. No, no, it wasn't. But it was in the act and he did deny the accusation. Mm-Hmm. . But I found really interesting about it was he's denying it, but the interviewer's asking him some questions and saying, Hey, gypsy said that she was abused by you. She didn't say what kind of abuse and grandpa jumps to defending sexual abuse, which I thought was interesting. Yeah. He, what did he say? Mm-Hmm. He's like, she was touching me. Yeah. Yes. Sounded very Deedee of him. Yes. She touched me and I just didn't know what to do. Yeah, right. Um, yeah, it was highly suspicious. I'm gonna, I'm going with Gypsy on this one Kind of points, an arrow to why Gypsy was so sexually charged in a interesting way. Yeah, that is interesting. I mean, obviously she's like, at the time she was like a 20-year-old kid. Like, I get it. You know? But I think that there were some areas that made like her sexual understanding a bit twisted. Mm-Hmm. . And I could see that how, you know, the way she grew up, obviously, um, in this like, false innocence of her mom as well as, um, a really traumatic event with her grandpa. Yeah. 'cause there's this dichotomy where she's like very naive. Mm-Hmm. . And maybe that's when I watched the, the Hulu, the act, she seemed just very naive and into princesses and fairytales and even in the documentary, you know, it kind of conveys that this was the type of person she was. She was into to a fairytale and she seems to have based her whole life and what life should look like on a Disney fairytale. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I think what I found most surprising about this documentary was how articulate she was. I wasn't expecting that she, She seemed like a, like a grownup, like . She's talking. Well, I thought, well, I Definitely think prison helped her. Yeah. That would be fair. She was, yeah. I guess she is in her thirties now, right? Yeah. Yeah. She's 31. So let's start with dad now. So dad, Gypsy's dad wasn't really a big part of her life. It seems like he left and was just gone. I mean, he went through a, a 12 year stretch of not seeing her, didn't show up for parole hearings, didn't give her her advice on a lot of things that she was asking for. He just really didn't show up for her in a very strong way. Mm-Hmm. . And I think he suspected things were wrong as well. And what do you guys think about that? I, I don't know. Like, there's a part of me that understands his route of decision making, um, but it's not an excuse for what it actually was like. I don't think that he did what he was supposed to, but I understand why he did it. You know? Um, I, I definitely think he contributed a lot, but it was more through phone calls and then him getting shut down by Deedee. Right? Mm-Hmm. like, I think he did want to participate, but even in the documentary or the Hulu Mm-Hmm. show, it showed him calling her trying to say, wish Happy birthday to Gypsy. And she's like, well, gypsy's asleep. She doesn't want to talk to you right now. I think he was just pushed away and taught to stay out of, you know, their own personal family dynamic and basically taught him that he wasn't a part of it. So I think after a while there's only so much you could do. Yeah. Specifically as like, you know, you're a 17-year-old guy that's having a kid. You, it's interesting. Well, And I could see, I could see the first few years not really understanding. And he's a teenager still. Yeah. I, I can see that. What I have a really hard time with is as she's growing older and he's seeing that something's wrong. So the birthday, one of the birthday examples was he called for her birthday. And I think this actually did wake him up a little bit, that something was even worse than he was thinking. Um, he called to tell her happy birthday 'cause it was her 18th birthday and it was a special day and it was a special birthday. And Deedee told him, she doesn't know how old she is, don't tell her. And I, you know, of course there's a red flag there. But he did say that there were many red flags throughout the years. The problem I have as a parent in seeing this, I can give bystanders, , I can give a lot of people a lot of latitude on, you know, maybe you don't wanna falsely accuse somebody, but this is her dad. He should have been knocking down doors. He should have been breaking down doors to make sure she was okay. Yeah. I just like, I don't think he knew where they were at. Did he like the location of where they were living? They did move around a lot. Yeah. I think it was just, he was just pushed away from it. I think think he put in the effort the way he knew, or he tried his best to, um, especially as someone that wasn't, he was a dad, but just didn't have the training of being a father. Right. Yeah. He, I think he tried his best in seeing that he was pushed away and that they kept moving away farther and farther to where it was they were basically unreachable. It's hard. Or What he justified as himself was the best that he could do. I don't know, like, obviously he could've done something, obviously he could've kicked down doors and whatever, but he, I mean, we don't know the perspective in which he saw things. Um, well, here's my perspective is as a parent, you make sure your kids are okay. Yeah, I Agree. Like you, yeah. So I, you know, I think the stepmom is really being, I'm impressed with her and even the stepsister or the half-sister that they're really looking out for Gypsy now and they've created this tight relationship. But even Gypsy showing up in prison and saying, I, Hey, I'm gonna get married after she's had weird relationship after weird relationship. Right. And he doesn't give her great advice. He just says, oh, whatever you think if you're in love. And, and my problem with that is, you know, gypsy has went from weird relationship to weird relationship to word relationship. She went from the frying pan to the frying pan. She went from moving from her mom to Nick. Right. Who killed her mom and was extremely disturbed. Yeah. So he was clearly troubled. Right. And she didn't really even detect the danger. I guess I'm, because she, you know, she was socially Stunted. I I would say maybe awkward and stunted and didn't understand that there's weird things . So like, one of the things he said when they were planning the murder is that he wanted to rape her mother and make her watch. 'cause that was a fantasy he wanted to play up. That's when Gypsy offered that he could rape her instead. Mm-Hmm. . Okay. So she broke up with him, and then he said, Hey, I'm sorry, this is just this vampire ego of mine. , What was his name? Victor. Victor? Mm-Hmm. , yes. Victor. This alternate personality. And, you know, he had to be excused for that. So she was okay that one, she getting back together with him, that he want to rape her mother. And two, that he had an alternate personality, which was a 500 year old vampire. So we see this path of gypsy just going from one frying pan to another. Mm-Hmm. . And then she kind of picked a boyfriend like mom. Yeah. Someone that controlled her. Yep. They ran her life, told her what to do. Yes. That's kind of what happened. Right. When, what, after they killed Deedee, they ended up going to his home. Right. Telling her what to wear, uh, what to eat. Strange stuff. And it, it is kind of, you know, a codependent would attract somebody like that. So That makes sense. . It does given that she's kind of went from bad relationship to bad relationship. And dad knows all of this now, right. He said he's upset that Gypsy didn't come to him, but confided in a neck. Mm-Hmm. . Why would she confide in her dad? Yeah. I don't think that she had a good understanding of who her dad was to her. And she was told a lot by her mom as well. Mm-Hmm. of how horrible he was. And that's one thing that she did say in the documentaries. Um, now that she's building relationship with her dad, she really wants to focus on, um, bringing up all the things that she learned about him growing up, because most of them are really negative and painting him as a horrible person, which is why she just chose not to reach out to him. Mm-Hmm. . So I'm sure there was some brainwashing, some alienation going on so they wouldn't have a relationship so they wouldn't get caught. Um, and dad fell for it. And I guess that's my problem is he's still kind of fallen for it a little bit. . Well, he, he, I mean, no offense to him, but he does seem more of a simple kind of guy, you know? And I think that his response to her getting married was a simple man response, you know? That's true. And Gypsy's mom did say he abused her. Right. Though. Mom did tell her though. She couldn't remember that when she was a baby. Like he picked her up and threw her across the room or something. So her and Nick orchestrate the murder. Crazy. And Nick rapes Gypsy, gypsy apparently allows it, This might sound weird, but is that actually rape then in that case? Like, if, if, if you're like giving permission for someone to rape you? Um, Well, he said he, um, was interested in things like BDSM. So I think, yeah, it was more like a fancy, you can go outside of my comfort zone and even if I tell you to stop, don't listen. Yeah. Type Situation. Oh, okay. Yikes. So, . Yeah, . Geez. So they go through this, they get arrested, they go to Nick's, she finds out she's just moved from one frying pan to the other because he's so controlling. He tells her what to wear, what movie she's gonna watch. It's, it's the same thing as living with mom. Mm-Hmm. , I'm sure she saw this as a way out and it still wasn't a way out. I also don't think she ever considered a possibility that her Nick would get caught. It was, it was really strange how, like, confident, but I think it could be due to her like naivete, you know? Like, I don't think she understood how easy it was to get caught by cops for doing something as big as that, You know? Yeah. And I think she did express that too, that she didn't know that they were gonna get caught so easily. Yeah. Because I mean, I think, I don't remember whose idea it was to post on Facebook. Mm-Hmm. . But clearly neither of them thought that there would be a location attached to social medias. Yeah. Well, and it almost seems like she wanted to get caught by posting on Facebook, that crazy stuff. So she went on Facebook and posted some crazy stuff, pretending like she was the killer. Right. I think, I think her motive was to be like, to have her mom be found. Yeah. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Because she didn't like the idea of her mom just laying there, you know? That's when her remorse started kicking in. Yeah. The adrenaline high probably started to slow up a little bit. , What do you guys think this was? Self-defense or murder? I did see an article, and I don't know if this is accurate or not, but in the, in the actual prison interview that they had with Nick, Nick said that he stabbed her four times. And, uh, but they found about like 13 or 14 stab wounds on Didi. So there's a whole story going on right now on social media that Nick actually stabbed her four times and then Gypsy went and stabbed her another few times after. So because she put in so much effort to plan out the murderer, and there's a possibility that, that she did stab her afterwards as well. I think she is a murderer, right? Yeah. Like, even if she didn't stab her, I think just because she put in so much effort to plan it out, basically. I definitely think she's a lot worse than people pain her ass. Yeah. And I think, I think it might be a little, I, I understand why it would be seen partially as self-defense, um, because like she didn't really feel like she had another way out, and psychologically she was stunted, so she didn't really see, like, understand different options that she could've had. Yeah, that's true. Because even with Nick, he had such a, like a glorified mentality on killing and Mm-Hmm. raping and all these dark things that I think she didn't even think of just running away because it didn't work for her the first time. Mm-Hmm. , I think she just heard Nick talking about it. Mm-Hmm. . And she's like, this is a great idea. Let's plot plotted. Yeah. But, but honestly, like, I don't know. I think even if like you're ignorant of the law, like that is still like dangerous behavior. Mm-Hmm. , you know? And especially to like, have gone through that sort of trauma and to have, I don't know, like a, a, an odd understanding of life and death and murder at that point. I don't know if she was safe to the public at that point. So I, I think it was self-defense, even if she knew it was illegal, even if she planned it out. It's, I, and I'm not, I I'm not saying this as, you know, a member of a jury or the judge. I'm saying this in my world, this would be self-defense. I think there, as you follow the story, there didn't seem to be a way for her to escape. So she was kind of a prisoner or held hostage emotionally. Mm-Hmm. and physically by this mother emotionally most of the years. But after she did try to escape, then mom chained her up and chained her to the bed for two weeks. The one time she did try to escape. And then mom also became more than emotionally abusive. She became very physically abusive after the, the first failed escape attempt. And mom did lie to get her to come home after she found her after that first attempt at Escape. Right. And Gypsy believed her, which is fascinating how she could believe her mom. 'cause she knew her mom was lying all of these years. And that anything that came outta her mouth was probably a lie. But it's just interesting. You just, you, you don't wanna believe anything bad about your mom. And I do believe Gypsy knew and planned it and also knew it was wrong. I I do know that, but I don't see any other way for her to have gotten out of this. Like, even if she went and told somebody, you're right, mom had everyone so manipulated, would they have believed her? Even when one of the ladies on there said, I don't know if I would've believed her if she'd came to me, because Mama had also painted Gypsy as being mentally incompetent. Yeah. Yeah. And incapable of making any kind of decisions. So, Uh, I mean, she was over the age of 18 and I'm, I I I She knew that at that point, didn't she? When she made the murder. Like she, she was a free human being that was able to make her own decisions to leave The house. No, she wasn't, wasn't she chained her to the home? Yeah. But she also had a power of attorney over her. Oh. So she Gypsy didn't know the power in that. Mm-Hmm. . And she didn't know that she could really actually still Mm-Hmm. be 18 and have her own. Yeah. You know? That's right. I forgot. So, in her mind, she is a hostage. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. for all intents and purposes. Like she is a hostage in her mind and there's no way out of this. Yeah. 'cause her mom's just gonna find her. She's going to mentally hold her, like legally hold her. The abuse was getting stronger. Yes. And we know why Mom was losing a grip of her control on her, which also meant losing finances and losing her only companion. Yeah. So I think her grip got stronger and she got more abusive. And that probably intensified gypsy's need to escape as well. I think it's, it's super gray and it's like, for me, for me it's feels really gray and it's like a hard thing to like decipher, you know what I mean? Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. It's, it is a hard thing to be like, was this like a hundred percent self-defense or was this maybe even a mixture of self-defense and, I don't know, murder like . I mean, I think it's fair 'cause you know, even she thought she should go to jail . Yeah. I think I, I think I'm the only one who doesn't think she should have went to jail. I think she needed some, um, mental health care. I think she should have probably went to a facility to get some deep counseling. Because I get, she didn't have like a psychotic break. But was she mentally capable of making a good decision? I don't think so. I don't think after that many years of being held hostage, I don't even know if you can make a good choice. Yeah. And even the medical doctors, I mean, if you think about it, even the medical doctors that saw her weren't sure this was happening. She was that manipulative. And I was a little irritated 'cause it seemed like the one, there's a, there's Dr. Nice hair and then there's Dr. Bald guy in the documentary, we don't know their names, but Dr. Nice Hair did actually call CPS 'cause he knew something was wrong. And, but he hadn't seen her her entire childhood. He had only seen her at a certain point on and picked up on it because they were doctor hopping. But there was a doctor who looked a little guilty . Yeah. And I think he knew how guilty he was. And, um, yeah. It didn't strike me as empathetic as Dr. Nicer. So , Yeah. I think he just had a fear of instead of, uh, you know, calling CPS and everything works out for Gypsy, I think he was just scared that he would end up losing his own license or something. Yeah. And you don't know with a volatile person like that. So there's a person that I suspected of this and I had to outweigh what would happen to my family. Mm-Hmm. . I, I, I mean those thoughts kind of went through my head like, what would ha what would happen if I'm wrong and did this? How Far would this person go? Yes. I mean, it was a crazy person. So , you're, it, it is a lot that goes through your mind. Um, you know, this was quite a long time ago. Would I do it different now at this age in my life? Would I, if I saw this or suspected this, I'd probably investigate further at this point in my life. And I, you know, I don't, I don't have small children at home anymore, so I might say something . Um, but you know, that, that's what makes it so hard in society. It's easy to look at these people and go, why didn't you help? Well, it's hard to know. It is just hard to know unless you've been in that situation. Or what if you're wrong or, you know, I, we have a family member who is in foster care as a young person. And her point to me when we had talked about it before was, you know, foster care isn't always better and you don't really imagine somebody dying or that being the outcome. You don't imagine. I don't think I imagined the lengths that somebody would hurt their own child to keep control. Yeah. It's crazy sad. It is. So in the documentary, okay, so where Gypsy's been arrested, she goes to prison. And it's really interesting, Nicole, what she says about freedom. The first day of prison was the free day she's ever had her favorite day. Yeah. That was pretty cute, huh? It was, it was sweet and like really sad. So so I know another person, like we just did, um, a podcast on a gentleman who went to prison. Right. And he talked about how scared he was his first day and how horrifying it was. And you know, it, it was really a contrast to see her saying it was like one of the best freeing, most freeing days of her life to be in prison. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's just because she had the freedom to actually, you know, walk around and have her own space and not have somebody really telling her what to do because Mm-Hmm. , I feel like when you first join prison, you're not necessarily surrounded as around as many guards. It's mostly just the prisoners and trying to understand how to navigate them. And I think, I feel like at first she was probably accepted with open arms. Mm-Hmm. since it's a women's prison. Mm-Hmm. . I don't think it would be that hard. And she has a Famous story, like yeah, they probably knew about it, But I feel like when they know that you're, it's your first time in prison, everybody's trying to help you, you know? Mm-Hmm. . Everybody's trying to help you kind of like get used to the life or, Mm-Hmm. . So I, that's probably why she had such a good day. Yeah. Talk about learning how to talk about learning how to drive on a rocky road, huh? . Yeah. Learn social cues in prison. . Uh, well, I mean, she did miss growing up and growing to school where you do learn a lot where you, where peers kind of put you in alignment when you step out, when you do something weird. Everyone lets, you know in school, right. . And so I think there was a quick growing up time for her in prison. Like I think she grew up fast, but I do, I did find it so crazy that it was so freeing to her when you're under locking key and you're still told when you are supposed to go to bed and when you eat and all of these things. But there was still freedom in that for her, which I found really fascinating and sad at the same time. And, and I feel like that might've not been like the worst place for her to go. 'cause I mean, coming from like extreme restriction to like no restriction might've ended up badly for her, you know what I mean? Yeah. Agreed. And I think, I mean, I think things probably turned out how they were supposed to. I felt like she got too much time in there. That's just my personal opinion. Mm-Hmm. . Um, I do think it was probably a good place for her to go too, to learn, I mean, to grow up fast , you know what I mean? And, and still kind of understand like what rules are important, you know what I mean? Because There is, you know, that podcast we did where Josh went to prison, there is a hierarchy. There is really social cues that you have to follow in norms. So, I mean, I think it's probably, it feels a little exaggerated than our real world, but it also feels more real in a way if you hear Josh talk about it. Yeah. So it's, it's interesting. , there's like, it's more authentic it feels like in prison. Yeah. You know where people stand, you know what their thoughts are, you know what the expectations are. I think I'm gonna talk about dating in prison next . Mm-Hmm. . So how do you start dating someone in prison Through write a prisoner.com ? Do you think that's how she meant them? I think so. Yeah. Well actually I think, I don't think she used something like write a prisoner because the prisoners have to sign up for it and pay a membership for it. I think it was more her case was famous and people started kind of getting curious about speaking to her. Mm-Hmm. . And they would just look up their, her information themselves. Mm-Hmm. . So anyone can write anyone in prison. Yes. I am also curious about why you guys think somebody would wanna date somebody who is in prison who had just been down this road. Well, you'd probably get an array of folks With different, um, attractions and desires and maybe opportunities to talk to women. I feel like there has to be some weird underlying motives. Right? Like, thank you. You know, a lot of, a lot of the guys that she said, like, she's gotten a lot of letters from people even in South America or overseas. So it's kind of like, you know, if you look at it in a more twisted way, they probably think like, okay, she's vulnerable, let's get married and then, and then I can move to America. Right? Mm-Hmm. or, Or this looks like somebody I could control. Yeah. This looks like somebody I could control or I could profit off of this because her case is so famous, she probably is gonna have a lot of money. You know, I might as well just try to coerce her a little bit. Um, yeah. I just don't see a lot of like, great reasons to, I would say one that you guys didn't mention is, um, we haven't brought up Ryan yet, but I think if you're maybe not the most conventionally attractive man with, um, good social skills, I think it might be, uh, an option. You know? Well, I know that her current husband, he was dared to message her. Yeah. So him and his coworker, um, he messaged Gypsy Rose and his coworker messaged Tiger King. Mm-Hmm. . And he just didn't expect to get a response from Gypsy and he sent her a selfie. And um, she actually ended up responding back within a few weeks. That's interesting. That's interesting. I'd imagine if you didn't have like, social skills with women. I like that would be like the worst place to, I don't actually might be the worst, but I dunno, It, it just, uh, it just sounds like you have this woman who just killed her mom who has been abused her entire life and hasn't had tr any kind of treatment yet. And I, I can't imagine being on the other side of that pen thinking, okay, this is the girl for me. I mean, I'm not saying that Gypsy shouldn't have life and happiness and those things. I want her to heal. If I'm gonna run her life, I would love to see her heal and mend herself. I am a little concerned like why somebody would want to be with somebody who who does need help. She does need additional help, but I mean, it's just a red flag for me. And so you just said his name Ryan. Ryan is the guy who went one of the men who she was dating in prison and ended up marrying. And while he seems like a nice enough guy, there's definitely some red flags for me. And one is, you know, like we just discussed, do do you really wanna date someone in prison? Mm-Hmm. or what do you think he's up to? I, I think he did something on a dare and ended up liking her. Like, I, I think that, you know, it is, it is strange and I think that he kind of has some odd behavior here and there, but I actually do think he has like her best interest to some degree. Um, and I, I like, I might be one of the only ones defending him, . Oh no, I defend him too. Yeah. They, I, they did move extremely Fast. They moved too fast. They did move too fast. But I, I do, I do kind like the guy and I think that he, but one thing I do really appreciate about him and their relationship is that they're both doing therapy together. Mm-Hmm. . And they're willing to work on the relationship and do something and make it work. I do appreciate that because, you know, I do tell you this, often people meet each other where they're at. Mm-Hmm. . Right. We, if I'm broken, I'm probably not gonna attract a super healthy person. Or if I'm super healthy, I'm probably not gonna be really attracted to somebody who needs, you know, some time to work life out. Right. So I I think it's cool that they probably did meet each other where they're at because that, that happens. And there's some, there's some signs there for sure that maybe things are not all perfect for him. Um, there is an extreme weight issue, which can be indicative of other issues. There's a, um, I mean he was still living with his mom. Mm-Hmm. , Which they, you know, gypsy treaded very lightly over. 'cause that was her thing with the previous boyfriend Nick, is that she couldn't believe he was still living with his parents and didn't realize what she was getting into. And now she's in the next frying pan with Ryan, who I'm not completely sold on, but I'm not completely, you know, writing him off yet. . But also I noticed he mentioned the word fame many times. Yeah. Yeah. Like he was a little enamored by that and that was a big red flag for me. Yeah. He's posting a lot on Instagram. They've gone on a few red carpets together, kind of like for their little interviews and he's posted a lot of pictures of himself on these red carpets. I could see him not understanding what it's like to have things That could be a social cue Thing. Right. Like a social thing that he might just not understand well and he's letting it go inappropriately, but I don't know. Yeah. They need a good publicist. They or someone to media train them. I think they need somebody who cares about them to help guide them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like they could have like a, like a life coach. I feel like Mm-Hmm. would be awesome for them. So Nicole, you've been watching some of the media. How, how is that going? Um, It's interesting. I've watched, there was actually a video that popped up on my TikTok the other day. It was, um, Ryan and Gypsy were doing a live stream together. And he, a question was brought up, but I don't remember what the question was. And Ryan started answering for her and she kicked him and like whispered like, shut up to him. 'cause I think she was scared that he was gonna over spill about something. Oh, Wow. Mm-Hmm. . That is interesting. Interesting. I've definitely seen how the tides have turned, um, maybe a little bit more against Gypsy Mm-Hmm. , um, on social media. Like a lot of people are starting to kind of change their opinion and have more of a negative view of her because of some of the information Yeah. That has been intellectualized about the case and about how innocent she was. Well, I think too, she did explain even to her parents who she hasn't, you know, at the time of, she just got out December 28th and so the documentary was just a week or two ago, right? Mm-Hmm. . And I think at the time she hadn't had a chance to completely explain this to her parents and she had withholds withheld information and was forthcoming about that and they knew it, but I also knew where it was coming from. She did know what was wrong. Right. She knew it was wrong what she did. Like she didn't even want them to know she was part of the murder to, at, to begin with. Yeah. Because I think she was afraid of losing their love or their approval or their relationship. Mm-Hmm. because they were getting closer throughout this whole process. And I, I get why she would hold that back, but I also get why she would stab her mom. I mean, , you know what I mean? I'm not thrown off by that. That doesn't Yeah. This, to me, there was no way out for her. Not that we need to go around killing people, folks. I don't think we need to kill people. I can just see how it happened. I think there's a lot of gray area and a lot of stuff we don't know. And it's really hard to pick like a concrete opinion on something. I Know. It makes me wonder how much we're gonna find out in the next upcoming months. Like if she spills too much or something comes out. I know that Nick was interviewed, um, Mm-Hmm. at one point a few weeks ago. Someone did a, like a video visitation with him and he said that she had a lot of, um, she participated a lot more than people think she Did. I think she probably did. Mm-Hmm. . I mean, if there's 13 stabs and there was only four that Nick claimed. And he, you know, that was interesting too, is when he was arrested, it seemed like it was pretty quick that he just Oh Yeah. He just, he just spilled it. Yeah. Yeah. And he was very confident that it was four mm-Hmm. . But it also, I think there was, I think like the documentary, um, kind of exaggerated it. I think that he did hold onto the lie a little bit longer than he actually did. Okay. But he did break first before Gypsy. It did seem, yeah. It seemed fast, but you're right. We probably don't know the time span on that. Mm-Hmm. , he kind of seemed excited about it. Like, yeah, I did this, this is what I did. He wasn't like ashamed or remorseful. Yeah. That was strange. Well, the cop that was interviewing him said that Gypsy already spilled everything. Mm-Hmm. . Right. So that's why he was pretty confident to talk about it. And I think for him it was just almost like a weight off his shoulders to finally tell someone. Mm-Hmm. . You know, that's why he was so confident and comfortable. , or a weird excitement. 'cause he is really weird. Yeah. Strange, Strange man. Yeah. He was a strange kid. So we got Gypsy going from mom to the killer to prison to a couple boyfriends in prison, right? Mm-Hmm. now to Ryan who she's married, and then she goes to dad who she's building this relationship with and asks him what he thinks. And it sounded like she would've taken his advice. And again, dad doesn't show up. And this just made me angry. I was like, I was, I, I kept forgiving dad along the way because I, you just don't know. Right. You don't know what somebody's going through. You don't know their story. And then when she had the opportunity, her dad had the opportunity to say, Hey, why don't you slow this down? What is the hurry? Why do you need to get married right now? Why not Take your time? He says, whatever makes you happy. I was just angry. I know. I don't know why none of my business. I think it's just hard knowing that she wasn't under control of her mom her whole life. It's kind of like he's just trying to be a good dad and show her support instead of um Mm-Hmm. like controlling her the way her mom controlled her And everybody's trying to tell her not to do it and she Yeah. You know, and so he knows, he's like, okay, well she killed her mom for her mom telling her what to do constantly. So let's just let her be her and make her own wrong decisions. Right. Mm-Hmm. . That's fair. That's fair. Or he's afraid of getting killed. . I was joking. . . That was a joke. Geez. Maybe not appropriate. Is that inappropriate humor? ? I Don't know. I thought it was fun. Probably a little bit. All right. Sorry folks for my inappropriate humor. , I don't know. She she did kill her mom. Um, . She did. Yeah, she did. And, and I'm not advocating anyone, kill anyone. I'm all, but I'm, I just, I don't see any way out. I don't think she had another way outta that. Yeah, no, I get ya. Yeah. I don't know. I, it's hard like with her dad because like a part of me kind of sees how simple of a guy he is and just like, doesn't really like, understand like emotions and you can just kinda read it off him. Just simple dude, you know, does hard blue collar work and goes home. You know? So I did. I mean, he did take care of them financially. Like that was, and I think that happens with a lot of men. I think even your dad would say, you know, you get wrapped up in your work taking care of your family to pride provide for them financially that some stuff gets lost in the mix. Right. And Especially him, his job was, you know, he would be gone for about a month at sea. Yeah. It was really demanding. That is a long time to be away from your family. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . But I think the stepmom really stood up for her in a really great way. What did you guys think of her? I thought she was awesome. Yeah, she's really cool. She's cool. Yeah. I, I liked how, I, like how involved she is and, and her sister too about taking care of her and standing up for her and making and helping her make like decisions and teaching her things about how to be an adult human in society. Mm-Hmm. . So they showed up really well, I thought. Yeah. What I loved is they saw that they probably could have done more and should have done more and now they're really stepping up. I like that her stepmom's trying to like, give her a motherly role too, you know? Mm-Hmm. . And show her like, well what a healthy maternal figure Is. Yes. I did like that. And, and to get the dad props, you know, him supporting that and his, him supporting his wife doing that is him supporting Gypsy as well. And I like that they prayed before, uh, the, the hearing. Yes. I thought that was really sweet. Yeah. And, and they said Jesus and it was cool. . That was cool. That was cool. So I did like that. So I, you know, I'm, I might be being a little bit hard on dad. I did forget about that. Like, she called and you know, this, this costs money to travel and do these things. Mm-Hmm. and they were gonna open up their home for Gypsy, but she did get married while in prison. So that didn't happen. I think that would've been a really great plan for her to grow and see how a normal healthy family is. Because when you grow up in, I mean, even dysfunction, right? So I grew up in some dysfunction. You don't know how to do healthy family, so you learn and make it up along the way. And it's funny, I thought about myself even during this, not that I was gonna kill anyone , but how she was really attracted to the fantasy world, to the princess world. Mm-Hmm. . I was really attracted to a sitcom world. Oh, interesting. Because, yeah. So, um, there was the Bill Cosby show, and I know I'm gonna get flamed for this because Bill Cosby turned out to be not a great guy. But when I was a kid I watched this and I kind of fantasized that this is how a family was supposed to be. Mm-Hmm. , you have two professionals. You got the funny witty dad, you got the supportive mom who's no nonsense. And these kids were really cool and interesting. Mm-Hmm. . And I just thought, okay, this is what a family's supposed to look like. And I kind of thought about that throughout my years and that was kind of the idealized life. And you can see where somebody, if you don't have a good picture of something, you can take somebody else's picture and romanticize it and create some insane things. Yeah. I think everybody does that, I think to, to some degree, you know, as like an escape. But I think it is interesting how like much harder you might clinging to it when you are in a dysfunctional state. Yes. And so her clinging to this fantasy brings me back to her meeting this nick guy. Mm-Hmm. . And she's trying to introduce him to mom artificially, like on accident at a movie theater. Silly. The the Act did such a good job with that scene. I thought it was so funny. Yeah. They really showed how awkward it was And weird man. It was. Yeah. I, I don't know if it was extremely accurate, but it was really funny to watch And so she, did she show up in the princess outfit? Yes. Or a Cinderella outfit? Mm-Hmm. . And she's 18 ish wearing a Cinderella outfit to the movie with her mom. But She was like, what, 21 or something. She was in her twenties, I think she thought she was 18. Yeah. Oh, that's right. So she's older wearing a princess outfit to the movie theater in her twenties. Mm-Hmm. legally able to drink. But see she is really tiny too. She's four 11 and she is extremely skinny. Yeah. So people passed her as a child. Yeah. Yes. But you see why they might think she was mentally incompetent too. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And then she has her first sexual experience in the bathroom. That Was a hard watch on the act. Oh, was it? I can't remember it. I must have blocked it out. I Was like, uh, . So did they show, like in the documentary where they said he wasn't unable to, um, finish 'cause of some erectile dysfunction? I think They tried to and they just didn't know how to proceed with it and Oh Yeah. It was weird. And she was very upset about it because she didn't enjoy it as much as she thought she would. So it seemed like in the documentary he wasn't able to finish and she seemed disappointed as well, that it wasn't what she thought it was gonna be because you know how Snow White or Little Mermaid probably was gonna get married and have that experience I'm sure in her head. Um, but yes, I can't imagine it turning into a good plan in the movie theater bathroom. Yeah. And I couldn't imagine him being quite graceful at the job. No. And this could possibly have been his first time as well. So I am, it's interesting because rape is about power, right? It's not about love that he has these rape fantasies and if the documentary is correct and he did have the dysfunction and wasn't able to really complete or follow through with it, um, I, I kept thinking about this rape fantasy. Like that's what he needs. He needs that power, this craziness to be able to sexually function. Which can you imagine if they didn't get caught what her life could have been like with this guy? Oh my gosh. Horrible Dude. Yeah. Like I don't foresee anything good. Yeah. I, I mean honestly, like I said it earlier, but I feel like prison might've been the best option for her. It was the best option for her for Sure. Yeah, I agree too. Even though I didn't want her to go there, if she was gonna get caught, I, I'm glad she got caught. 'cause Yeah, I do feel like that was a dark, dark person that she was with. Um, and there's, there's just nothing good that would've happened with his crazy fantasies Mm-Hmm. And what he wanted to do. Um, I I don't see that working out Well, . So if you could give gypsy advice, what would it be? You know, we're, we're a Christian on this show. Um, I would say pursue God, um, and focus on your healing, uh, spiritually, emotionally, and um, learn to take care of yourself and build discipline. Um, and I know like, 'cause 'cause she didn't really have to do anything for herself growing up, and she had to do it automatically in prison. And I don't know how that translated in her everyday life now, but, you know, um, understand your independence as a person, you know? Yeah. That was well put. Thanks. Read the Bible . I, I, I hope Gypsy learns to love herself and learns to separate truth. And I feel like the way we do that is through God and through the Holy Spirit who can discern for us. And I think that's gonna be tricky for her. So it doesn't have to be because God's a miracle worker and a way maker. I hope that she does like you seek God and a relationship with him and heal as well. Mm-Hmm. . I'd like to see her surround herself with people who really, truly care about her. And that probably could be Ryan. I'm not saying that can't be Ryan. Um, I hope she gives herself time to learn, to love herself and to learn to love others. Like true, true authentic. Yeah, true authentic relationships and love And learn what healthy ones look like. They are going to counseling. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. I also have another piece, uh, voodoo Hexes Don't Work On You if you know your authority. They do not. But those voodoo hexes that her mom spoke over, I hope she knows that she doesn't have to accept that and or receive that. I think that's the problem with something like that. Even if you are a believer or not a believer, if you believe it, it becomes true. Words are powerful. Your agreement matters. Your agreement matters. So I wish them well. I hope I am completely wrong about Ryan and he is a fabulous man who gives her a fabulous life and they can love each other and grow and have a, an amazing marriage with all the ups and downs that they're supposed to so they can learn and grow and they have children and a lovely life. Amen. I hope that for them, . All right. Well thank you everybody for joining us again on the soapy box, talking about Gypsy Rose Blanchard. Please leave your comments in this section. We'd love to hear what you guys think about it and remember to like and subscribe. It helps us.