Episode Transcript
Transcripts are displayed as originally observed. Some content, including advertisements may have changed.
Use Ctrl + F to search
0:00
WondruPlus subscribers can listen to
0:02
Red Handed early and ad-free. Join
0:04
WondruPlus in the Wondru app or
0:07
on Apple Podcasts. Have
0:09
you got to the other side of 30 and thought, I
0:11
wish I'd taken better care of my skin? Suddenly
0:14
all those days at the beach with
0:16
a rather too little SPF and not
0:18
enough water seem like they might
0:20
have been a bad idea. If
0:22
so, you've probably started looking at
0:25
some serious skincare. That's why
0:27
my friends in the US are hooked
0:29
on Curology. Firstly, it's actually personalized and
0:31
prescribed for your skin. So it's not
0:33
just some guessing game trying to pick
0:35
what works, wasting a bunch of time
0:37
and money and then ending up with
0:39
loads and loads of bottles of something
0:41
that you'll never use. But
0:44
do you know what really stood out
0:46
to them and made me super jealous
0:48
when they told me? All of Curology's
0:50
products have no fragrances or parabens. Nothing
0:52
puts me off skincare like a brand that goes
0:54
on about the smell. It just
0:56
irritates your skin and it is not good for
0:59
it. I do not need my face to smell
1:01
nice. I just want to look bangin'. So
1:03
if you want to give it
1:05
a try, visit curology.com/redhanded today for
1:07
a special offer. That's Curology.
1:10
curology.com/redhanded. Offer applies
1:12
only to your
1:14
first box, subject
1:16
to consultation. New
1:18
subscribers only. Summer
1:21
is right around the corner. And whether
1:24
you plan on spending it lounging on
1:26
the beach, parting your way at festivals,
1:28
playing sports, traveling, or climbing mountains, you
1:30
have to stay hydrated more than ever.
1:32
I insist. That's where Liquid IV
1:34
has you covered. With their easy-to-use
1:36
delicious sachets full of electrolytes,
1:39
essential vitamins, and clinically tested
1:41
nutrients. Their science-backed formula has
1:43
three times the electrolytes of the
1:45
leading sports drink, plus eight
1:48
vitamins and nutrients in a single stick.
1:50
It's clear why Liquid IV is the
1:53
number one powdered hydration rant in America.
1:56
And They have zero sugar and,
1:58
very importantly, zero... The artificial
2:00
sweeteners. I don't know how
2:03
it's done, but honestly, it's a credible
2:05
and incredibly delicious and incredibly hydrated. I
2:07
can't stress enough how many times Liquid
2:09
I The has saved me on long
2:11
haul flights of sweaty underground train journeys
2:14
in the middle of summer. The.
2:16
Twenty percent of your first order
2:18
of liquid I the only go
2:20
to liquidivy.com a new code red
2:22
handed attacker as twenty percent off
2:24
your first order. When. You
2:26
shop better Hydration today using
2:28
promo code red handed at
2:30
Liquid ivy.com. We.
2:33
Are so excited to get our latest
2:35
parcel in from his house! I
2:37
picked out the ancient kit and matching
2:40
Scott and I'm posing to try them
2:42
on and I just say my word
2:44
for it. Everyone from Olivia Rodriguez to
2:46
Taylor Swift herself have been floated wearing
2:48
his house. but what's I have? Loads
2:50
of cute clothes. But. What's really
2:52
help heal how to land their
2:54
name on social media of addresses?
2:56
Hill House has the ultimate lanes
2:58
summer dresses perfect for holidays, weddings,
3:00
part hangs, and everything in between.
3:03
Hill House home invented the viral
3:05
map. Which. Has the
3:07
most flustering and most comfortable fit. Your
3:09
is a Tennessee and that's the real
3:11
secret sauce with a hill sister. The.
3:13
So comfy and acetone. he can throw one
3:16
on, run errands through the day and then
3:18
turn up at a party later. Still looking
3:20
that stuff, but walk in the day but
3:22
go to that or fancy bar in the
3:24
evening. nurses and definitely no sweat because now
3:27
you can get sixteen percent of your order
3:29
of hundred dollars or more and he'll have
3:31
some.com. With. Code Red Fifteen.
3:34
Again, as code red, fifteen sixteen
3:36
percent of. Your Orders. On
3:50
Hundred and Thirty and welcome to read
3:53
Her which is the first time I've
3:55
ever read a script with contact lenses.
3:58
Out Loud. Yeah, we
4:00
go gonna be honest. It's pretty blurry. I think
4:02
one of them is inside out. Oh So
4:06
good luck. Well, maybe
4:08
it's inside out upside down because we're
4:10
done In
4:15
2003 a 13 year old boy
4:17
vanished in broad daylight while
4:19
waiting for a bus in the
4:21
sunshine in or on I checked
4:23
It's in Wow. Mmm, Australia you
4:25
crazy. Yeah, no Alright, so
4:27
he was waiting for a bus in the
4:30
Sunshine Coast of Australia What
4:33
followed was the largest criminal investigation in
4:35
the history of Queensland in
4:37
a case where nothing and nobody is as it seems
4:40
It took seven years before the case concluded
4:42
in one of the most controversial elaborate
4:45
and lengthy covert police operations ever
4:47
carried out in Australia This
4:50
is the story that you've asked for so it's your
4:53
fault of Daniel Morcom
4:56
and the unbelievable investigation to
4:58
find the truth On
5:01
the 1st of April 2011 Brett
5:03
Peter Cowan sat down in seat
5:05
42d for the long flight from
5:08
Brisbane to As
5:16
Joe Emory By the
5:18
time the six-hour flight was over the pair had
5:20
formed a budding bromance even swapping
5:22
members Who
5:25
had had a rough day of things recently didn't
5:27
waste any time getting in touch with you He
5:30
was keen for a new mate and the pair
5:32
hung out regularly over the following weeks Going
5:34
car shopping smoking weed and generally
5:37
shooting the shit and
5:39
from Brett's side of things. It really did seem
5:41
like shit He told Joe
5:43
that he'd been in and out of prison He
5:45
wasn't very close to his family and they
5:48
he'd even had a couple of failed marriages and
5:50
also a few kids that he wasn't allowed Red
5:53
flags But
5:59
it seemed like Brett could possibly just be
6:01
a guy whose life hadn't worked out
6:04
and in many ways that was true. But
6:07
Brett was also a man with
6:09
many a dark secret. Secrets
6:12
that he knew would only push his newfound
6:14
friend away. So Brett tried
6:16
his very best to put the past
6:18
behind him and present himself as
6:21
a regular guy to regular Joe. There
6:25
were peculiarities about Brett
6:27
that slipped through. For
6:29
example, on one occasion
6:31
Brett excitedly showed Joe a letter saying
6:33
that he had legally changed his name
6:36
from Brett Peter Cowan to
6:40
Shadow Nunya Hunter. The
6:43
man formerly known as Brett proudly explained that
6:46
Shadow was his old dog's name and
6:49
that Nunya was for Nunya. It's a
6:51
Nunya business. Yeah, why not?
6:54
Brett didn't explain why he had changed
6:56
his name and Joe, although
6:58
a little bit confused, did just brush
7:00
it off as a bit of a weird quirk. A
7:03
few weeks passed and one day Brett told
7:05
Joe that he just lost his job and
7:08
that he was really struggling. So
7:10
Joe, being the good friend that he was, said
7:12
that he might be able to help. Joe
7:15
told Brett in confidence that he
7:17
worked for a secretive criminal organisation
7:19
that operated across Australia
7:22
and that if his boss gave the green light he
7:24
might be able to get Brett some jobs and
7:27
soon on the 5th of May 2011 Joe handed Brett
7:29
a photo
7:32
of a man and told him to call
7:34
him as soon as he spotted this
7:36
man getting off a plane at the airport.
7:39
It was the easiest $150 Brett
7:41
had ever made. After that
7:43
the shady jobs just kept coming.
7:47
The following Monday all Brett needed to do
7:49
was go and sit in a car while
7:51
Joe collected a $6,000 gambling
7:53
debt for the boss. Brett
7:56
counted the cash and Joe handed
7:58
him his day's pay of another $150. And
8:01
asked him if he was interested in more
8:03
work. That. Was
8:05
very interested. On
8:08
the next job Brett with going to be
8:10
working with a colleague of Jay's a man
8:12
called Poor Fit see Sit Simmons. Britain
8:14
fit see drove to the city of
8:16
Freemantle together to pick up five thousand
8:19
dollars from a brothel that their organization
8:21
ram. During. The forty five
8:23
minute drive Brett talk incessantly about his
8:25
theory on how hormones and chicken meat
8:27
would giving young girls big place. He.
8:30
Also has to be introduced as shut.
8:39
Shut. Eye without that and if anyone's
8:41
got to questions like a my middle name
8:43
make a. Over
8:46
the following month, the jobs came
8:48
in thick and fast, involving everything
8:51
from extortion, blackmail, tastes. And.
8:53
Gun running. On occasion
8:55
with sits by black possible
8:57
for the man who worked
8:59
at the Immigration department. Citizens
9:01
of The. Hook
9:04
Mackey seconds it must send since
9:06
ah no, no, it's what they
9:09
should be. Many, many, many things
9:11
are going on. And it
9:13
goes on for months And months and
9:15
months. All of these jobs, all of
9:17
this kind of dodgy dealing with. Guy
9:20
decides to tell with a real fucking deal
9:22
and he wanted him. During
9:25
their time together, city explain the ins
9:27
and outs of the organization because right
9:29
now brats not like in the organization.
9:31
He's very. Much on the periphery. He's
9:33
like. Kind. Of as a
9:35
handyman said. Agree pithy well. He's
9:38
not like in the crew. But.
9:40
Since he made it obvious to him that it was a very
9:42
hush hush and that they were like. A tight knit
9:44
family. Has He also
9:46
explained that above all else, the
9:48
group valued honesty, trust, and loyalty.
9:51
Is Brett looked after them and was one
9:53
hundred percent honest? are all times. There
9:56
was nothing the organization wouldn't do for
9:58
him. Is. He
10:00
were able to, you know, really get
10:02
his feet under the table. Pretty
10:05
soon, Fitzy introduced Brett to his
10:07
boss, a man called Jeff. Jeff
10:10
was the leader of the Western Australian Arm
10:12
of the organisation. After the
10:15
meet, Brett was excited to learn that Jeff had
10:17
liked him, which Fitzy said was a
10:19
rare thing. The jobs
10:21
and the pay got bigger and bigger.
10:24
And then one day, Fitzy told Brett, You're
10:26
one of us now. Every man in
10:28
the organisation is a brother to me, and
10:30
now you are too. Brett,
10:33
whose three real brothers absolutely
10:35
hated his guts, was overjoyed.
10:38
Everything was finally going right for Brett,
10:41
and he knew the only thing that could fuck it
10:43
all up was if they
10:45
found out his horrible secret. He
10:49
just couldn't let that happen. Soon
10:52
after his inauguration into the group,
10:54
Fitzy and boss man Jeff explained
10:57
to Brett that he shouldn't try
10:59
and contact Joe anymore, as
11:02
Joe had gotten into some trouble, but he
11:04
was being looked after. Jeff
11:06
explained that they were sending Joe to
11:08
London with a new identity and
11:11
$10,000 while they made his problems go
11:13
away. Brett
11:15
was sad to hear about Joe. After all, he was
11:17
the one who had shown him so much kindness and
11:19
brought him into the group. But if anyone
11:22
could sort out whatever trouble Joe was in, it
11:24
was easy. And
11:26
with Joe now out of the picture, it
11:29
looked like there might be a spot opening up
11:31
for blobs. It
11:33
was finally time for Brett to meet the Big
11:36
Boos, the guy who
11:38
headed up the entire organisation, Arnold.
11:41
Fitzy and Brett flew out to Melbourne for the meeting on
11:43
12 July 2011. Brett,
11:47
during this trip, was thrilled about three things.
11:50
He was finally stepping up in life. He
11:52
was going to Melbourne for the first time, and
11:55
his plane ticket said Shadow
11:57
Hunter on it. He was
11:59
done. with the wet carvings.
12:03
On the day of the face-to-face, the men
12:05
headed to a fancy hotel in the city.
12:08
As they made their way inside, Brett said
12:10
it was the first time he'd ever walked
12:12
through a revolving door. Yeah,
12:14
he is very much a
12:17
tragic, tragic character
12:20
of the highest regard, but also
12:23
bad guy. He's got a secret. Have
12:25
we not made that clear? No, I don't think so. And
12:29
I've seen pictures of Brett, even though
12:31
I know what he actually looks like. When I'm
12:34
talking about this case, when we're talking about this script, I
12:37
just picture Alfie Allen. I'm
12:42
sorry Alfie. Alfie Allen from
12:44
Game of Thrones, like when he looks
12:46
really like, gross and haggard. When
12:49
he's like, you know, being health captive. That
12:51
is who I imagine as
12:53
Brett Petercomb. Interesting.
12:57
I also hate revolving doors. They
13:00
are a nightmare. They make me extremely anxious.
13:02
But because the world doesn't owe me an anxiety-free
13:05
life, I have to use the revolving door.
13:07
Oh, you have done it. Yeah, not like
13:10
Brett. Who is going to meet
13:12
Arnold for the first time and is like, oh my
13:14
God, a revolving door. What else
13:16
have they got in Melbourne? And
13:19
just like us, Fitzy laughed and reminded the
13:21
starry-eyed Brett once again that Arnold needed to
13:23
know that he could trust Brett if he
13:25
was going to keep moving on up in
13:27
those ranks. And
13:29
also, he warned that a background check would be
13:31
done. But it was all standard stuff
13:34
and that as long as Brett was being honest
13:36
and didn't have some sort of massive secret they
13:38
had been hiding, then he just had nothing
13:40
to worry about.
13:42
A month later and a load more jobs later,
13:45
including a diamond smuggling operation out of
13:47
Melbourne. The background check results
13:49
were in. A
13:52
policeman that the group worked with Warned
13:55
Brett that he was about to
13:57
be subpoenaed in Queensland. Explain
14:00
to a confused looking fit the. The
14:02
He'd been living in an area where a
14:05
boy had gone missing seven years before and
14:07
two thousand and three. Hundred.
14:09
He'd been wrongly accused of being
14:11
responsible. And. Fact. When.
14:14
He met yet he had been on
14:16
the plane back from being subpoenaed by
14:18
the coroner's court. Brett. Claimed
14:20
that it will notice a big misunderstanding.
14:23
And assured that see. The he
14:25
was one hundred percent innocent and the his
14:27
alibi with at. The.
14:29
Boy that brat was referring to. Was
14:32
Daniel Mocha. The. Thirteen year
14:34
old who had vanished waiting for a
14:36
bus. Daniel
14:39
and his twin brother Bradley were born
14:41
on the nineteenth of December, Nineteen Eighty
14:43
Nine to Bruce and any smoking. When.
14:46
Bradley and Daniel turn to. Bruce.
14:48
Potter franchise of a lawn mowing company in
14:50
Melbourne, the Eastern Suburbs. Meanwhile.
14:53
The Nice had a handful lucky also Daniel
14:55
Bradley and the Balkans eldest. Son He's who.
14:57
Dean. As. Their business gray
14:59
them all. Can the sport themselves? A hobby
15:01
farm? And. Built a family home on
15:03
the land and the picturesque suburb. Of
15:06
merge she door in Queensland. And.
15:08
If you are wondering, just like we
15:11
are all Be Farm is a small
15:13
farm that's maintained without the expectation of
15:15
it being. A primary source of income. It's
15:17
like not quite an allotment let bigger than
15:20
and a lot. Yeah, But. You're
15:22
like. A. Knife Betty to make any
15:24
money. Just a bit of much.
15:26
I can see some until it's. Not
15:30
like a hobby horse which is just like
15:32
a horse with the steaks that doesn't is
15:34
not an actual was. It. Is a farm.
15:37
Does not one that's gonna an you any money.
15:41
And. It was actually perfect for little Daniel who was
15:43
obsessed with animals and wanted to be a vet
15:45
when he grew up. which like that's what they.
15:47
Can say it's really hard A K.
15:50
And also people who love animals won't become.
15:52
That's until they realize that will you do
15:54
with basically go around like a shooting horses
15:57
yeah and that's why that's have an incredibly
15:59
high seas. side rate. Also
16:01
I know that that's not true horses but you
16:03
know what I mean, putting animals down basically becomes
16:05
a big part of your day. Anyway,
16:08
Daniel didn't know that yet because he hadn't been
16:10
jaded by the weight of existence. He actually just
16:12
rode ponies on the farm, played with the family
16:14
dog, which was a German shepherd called Chief, and
16:16
brought a straight hat home basically every single night.
16:19
By the time the twins were 11, they
16:21
had jobs picking fruit for their next-door
16:24
neighbour. The brothers saved their wages
16:26
with dreams of buying a small motorbike that they
16:28
could one day share, and life was
16:30
generally going really well for the Morcoms. But
16:33
all that changed on Friday the 7th of December
16:35
2003. It
16:38
was the start of the school holidays, and
16:40
with Christmas and the twins' 14th birthdays
16:42
fast approaching, it was a busy
16:44
day in the Morcom house. The
16:46
twins had a 6am fruit picking shift
16:49
which I was just like, are you fucking kidding?
16:51
They're 13 years old and they're getting up at
16:53
6am. We're not even getting up at 6am. They're
16:55
on the farm at 6am to pick fruit. Yes,
16:58
too hot otherwise. I
17:00
like their work ethic and they've certainly got a lot of it
17:02
because they were doing this regularly. And
17:05
that day, Bruce and Denise were throwing
17:07
a big Christmas party for all their
17:09
employees. And with it
17:11
being Australia, that Christmas party was of
17:13
course a picnic in probably the blazing
17:15
heat. Upside down Christmas. Exactly. Or
17:18
at least that's what everyone thought until
17:20
it started absolutely pissing it down with me.
17:23
So, Bruce and Denise left the boys at home and
17:26
went off and tried to do a
17:28
last minute staff Christmas party salvage mission. The
17:31
teenagers mooched about at home that
17:33
morning when Daniel suddenly realised that
17:36
he hadn't bought anyone any presents yet. He
17:39
asked Bradley to go to the Sunshine Plaza with him,
17:41
which was a nearby shopping centre, but
17:43
both Bradley and the older brother Dean couldn't
17:45
really be asked. So Daniel decided
17:48
to go on his own. It
17:50
was only a short bus ride away and
17:52
he'd been countless times before. Daniel
17:55
Left the house at 1pm wearing blue
17:58
shorts and a red t-shirt. With.
18:00
A hundred dollars in cash. A.
18:02
Phone. And the huskies
18:04
his pockets. He woke
18:06
to an underpass about kilometer from his home. Where.
18:09
He knew just like all of the locals, there
18:11
was an unofficial bus stop. The.
18:13
Next buses to at one thirty five but
18:16
it didn't pump. What?
18:18
Can you didn't know? Was
18:20
that that boss had broken down a
18:22
few stops? The thought. To
18:24
replacement buses the center. thirty minutes later.
18:27
The. First one picked up all of the
18:29
annoyed passengers. From the broken down boss. And
18:32
the driver was told to take them
18:34
straight to married pseudo. Without.
18:36
Stopping. And that's what he did.
18:39
This. Rather record going straight poster boy in
18:41
blue shorts and or a decent who waved
18:43
him to stay. As he
18:45
went ballistic confused looking boy the dry
18:47
them out the words there's another one
18:50
coming on pointed behind him. Today.
18:52
That then picked up his radio. And even.
18:54
Cool the other bus driver saying.
18:57
There's. A young team in a red t shirt that
18:59
needs picking. That. When the second
19:01
bus arrived just two minutes later, There
19:04
was nobody there. The boy was
19:06
gone. Bruce. Antony returned
19:08
home from Brisbane at around four pm
19:11
that day. I was surprised to
19:13
find that Bradley was the only one at home.
19:16
He. Told them that team without. And.
19:18
That Daniel had gone to the shopping center. After
19:21
about an hour to nice to the underpass
19:23
bus stop to find Daniel. Burst.
19:26
Into Nice had been letting the twins catch the bus on their
19:28
own for a couple of years. By this stage. And
19:31
avoid new to make sure that they caught the
19:33
last bus home at five pm. Daniel.
19:36
Her only missed the last bus home
19:38
once before. And he phoned his parents
19:40
to let them know not to worry. That.
19:43
This time. There. Was no sign
19:45
of Daniel at the bus stop. And.
19:48
Know cool to explain what had happened. And
19:52
a nice remember having seen a broken down son
19:54
bus on the side of the road when they've.
19:56
Been driving home from the Christmas party. Maybe.
20:00
What does? stranded at The Plaza? Sudanese
20:02
headed straight there. But.
20:05
At six pm, the entire. Shopping center
20:07
with completely and. And
20:09
Daniel still wasn't answering his. After.
20:11
Checking out a few more likely places
20:13
where there's some might be, Denise and
20:15
Bruce went straight to the police station.
20:18
That. They were also the standard question. Was.
20:21
Done, You're depressed. Was it usual for him to
20:24
be late to the A? runaway? Bruce.
20:26
Assured the officer that the answer. To all of
20:29
those questions was not. Daniel.
20:31
With happy. After all had gone
20:33
to the shopping center to buy presents
20:35
for an environment. And
20:37
he was very responsible. I.
20:40
Mean, he was thirteen years old and had a weekly
20:42
six a m fruit picking shift that he never missed.
20:44
I think messiness. The. Officer
20:46
told them or comes that he wasn't
20:48
going to log Daniel as officially missing.
20:50
just it. And said that
20:53
they should come to the station eighty and the next morning
20:55
as he still hadn't turned up. Two
20:57
thousand And Three. This. Is Not like
20:59
Nineteen Seventy Three? Just. Two thousand
21:01
And Three. And that site. Now.
21:04
Even though the child it's been
21:07
reported missing had no history of
21:09
this know past running away, Know.
21:12
Past like anything in his behavior. Only
21:14
do you have a job more low risk
21:16
get having been somebody who's run off. Why?
21:18
But you know look into this is. Just
21:21
mind boggling the mistakes the believe me.
21:24
Of course it was a sleepless night and the
21:26
more can house. Bruce. And
21:28
Denise continue to search every place like a thing
21:30
cause. And they found every one
21:32
of Daniels friends. Denise.
21:36
Checked Daniels room. And. The front
21:38
driveway every ten minutes until four thirty
21:40
am. But. Annual never
21:42
came. And. Unity. It.
21:46
The next morning at the station. The
21:48
officer off Daniels parent. Whether.
21:50
He had been wearing a red shirt and blue
21:52
shorts. The. Officer spoken with a
21:54
driver from the Sun Bus Company to record
21:56
seeing a boy wearing the same thing waiting
21:59
at that on. The show best not
22:01
hinder the underpass. Can.
22:03
Or will come. After this was
22:05
originally looked into the system is
22:08
a missing person. And
22:11
a single. The. Officer didn't seem to
22:13
feel the need to tell person. To
22:15
nice mowjcamp. About the suspicious
22:17
looking man. That. The bus
22:20
driver had also reported seeing. Standing.
22:23
Near annual. I
22:25
hate that I feel like. You
22:27
know when you see in know out of your grand those
22:29
pictures. In it will be like. As
22:32
a one famous picture. Was like a
22:34
picture of a little boy who goes missing.
22:36
National Parks. And if you look really closely
22:38
at it. You can kind of like
22:40
a man and among non gaap can you
22:42
him? And you know how much of it is like?
22:51
An eyewitness testimony of Aperture.
22:54
And it was weird enough for him to see as
22:56
he was driving past with a boston of angry people.
22:59
To. Notice that that was a strange man
23:01
who might have. That
23:05
notice Alfie Allen the bus driver did
23:07
he described the man is looking dirty
23:09
with stringy go see some can and
23:12
cheeks and a sunburn face. I.
23:14
Cannot wait for your
23:17
Spf anxieties that are
23:19
to come. At the
23:21
end of this year. Now
23:24
that I have a clerk.
23:27
Were. Even coming. In October
23:29
which I I've heard it's not the
23:31
hot is it? I like it. Saw
23:34
it. As a hole in the ozone
23:36
layer january February I thought. May.
23:38
Look. I'm gonna have to
23:40
buy like could use the repellent packs.
23:42
I just get your be keeping costs
23:44
would be outstanding with fans and athletes.
23:46
As such a place for the love
23:49
of God. I'm also getting my
23:51
face like him, microneedle to shit. I definitely.
23:53
Can't go endless on his regular. Be
23:55
a bloody disaster. So. yeah lots
23:57
of hearts the umbrella my have to make a
23:59
real parents, the cuba umbrella, go
24:02
peak Asian, bad
24:05
times, bad bad times. I
24:08
like it all. This
24:12
episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We
24:14
all carry stress around day to day in a
24:16
big backpack of doom, whether it's
24:19
something really big like a life change or
24:21
something really small like a change of clothes, anything
24:23
can feel like it's really dragging you down. But
24:26
you know what can drag you right back up
24:28
there again? Therapy. For me, therapy has been a
24:30
really great way to create some positive coping strategies
24:32
for my day to day life. The
24:34
most important thing I found is giving myself permission to
24:37
have 10 minutes where I just stop thinking about everything
24:39
that I need to accomplish and just sit still, and
24:41
it's made an unbelievable difference to my overall
24:44
mental health. If you want to talk
24:46
to someone about how to take control of what's going on
24:48
in your head, why not think about giving BetterHelp a go?
24:51
BetterHelp is entirely online and designed
24:53
to make accessing therapy as easy and
24:55
convenient as possible. You just fill
24:57
out a questionnaire and get matched with a licensed
24:59
therapist. If you want to switch therapists at
25:02
any time, you can for no additional charge. Get
25:04
it off your chest with BetterHelp. Visit
25:06
betterhelp.com/redhanded today to get 10% off
25:08
your first month. That's Better,
25:12
help.com/redhanded. When
25:15
you travel, do you start worrying about whether you
25:17
remember to lock the door or perhaps you left
25:20
a window open? I do. That's
25:22
why I recommend investing in Simply
25:24
Safe Home Security today for award-winning
25:26
security and peace of mind wherever
25:28
your Fummer plans take you. I
25:30
remember when I was visiting family in India one summer,
25:32
our neighbours got in touch to tell us that our
25:34
house had been broken into. My dad had to fly
25:37
home early and it kind of ruined the rest of
25:39
our Fummer. If we had had Simply
25:41
Safe Security System, however, installed in our home,
25:43
none of that would have happened. The
25:45
Simply Safe Home Security System offers
25:48
indoor and outdoor cameras 24-7 professional
25:50
monitoring and sensors to detect break-ins,
25:52
fires, floods and more. And
25:55
you can take control of the entire system from
25:57
an app on your phone and even integrate it
25:59
with smart phones. home technology. Newsweek
26:01
even ranked Simply Safe as having the
26:03
best customer service in home security. There
26:06
are no contracts and a 60-day money
26:08
back guarantee. Simply Safe has given so
26:10
many of our listeners real peace of mind and
26:12
I want you to have it too. Get
26:15
20% off any new Simply
26:17
Safe system when you sign
26:19
up for fast protect monitoring.
26:22
Just visit simplysafe.com/redhanded. That's simplysafe.com/redhanded.
26:24
There's no safe like Simply
26:27
Safe. Investigators
26:33
in Queensland quickly contacted
26:35
Task Force Argos, which
26:38
you should know about if you
26:40
listen to anything we say or tell you to
26:42
do. Task Force
26:45
Argos is Australia's rockstar child
26:47
sex offender investigative team and
26:50
they are of course the heroes that
26:52
brought down Warhead and Child's Play. Go and
26:54
listen to Hunting Warhead if you haven't already.
26:57
They also have been involved with the demise
26:59
of numerous other nonce
27:01
networks. Argos were
27:03
also asked to review any intelligence that
27:06
they had on convicted paedophiles known to
27:08
operate in the area where Daniel had
27:10
vanished. Meanwhile, alerts to
27:13
look out for Daniel were broadcast across
27:15
Australia media stations. Forensic teams
27:17
combed every surface of the buses that
27:19
ran that day. Security footage
27:21
from every camera within a five-mile
27:24
radius was analysed. Investigators
27:26
examined the Morecambe family's computers. They called
27:28
every taxi company to see who they
27:30
picked up and dropped off. They checked
27:33
all 71 pawn shops in the area
27:35
to check for any of Daniel's belongings
27:38
and diving teams checked every waterway in
27:40
the area. But for
27:42
all of their efforts, the police
27:45
had nothing, not one
27:47
single lead. By
27:49
Tuesday morning, Daniel Morecambe had been missing
27:52
for 48 hours and his case
27:54
was being investigated by 50 police
27:56
officers and four homicide detectives.
27:59
All over me. I think they dropped the ball
28:01
on the initial reaction when Denise
28:03
and Bruce go and report their
28:05
son missing. But after that, the
28:08
police do everything they can to try
28:10
and find Daniel. And it is just
28:12
that thing of like, the sooner you
28:14
act, the more chance there is. And although
28:17
they have this mammoth team working on the
28:19
case within 48 hours, it
28:21
already feels too late. Yeah, I
28:23
know what you mean. I think like children it's different.
28:26
But I do think you have to factor
28:28
in how many
28:30
times that police station will have
28:32
been approached. This person is missing and
28:35
then they show up. I know. I've been that
28:37
person. Yes. I've been reported missing. I showed up.
28:39
You have. And the
28:41
police were very unbothered by my absence.
28:44
I know. Because I, so yes, it is like, you
28:47
know, with the gift of hindsight and it is a child's
28:49
heart is different. But I do think you do have to
28:51
factor in just how much Oh, yeah, this happens. No,
28:53
that's definitely true. And I think it comes back
28:55
to the children and the
28:58
history of not having disappeared
29:00
in the past. And yes, of course, with
29:02
hindsight, you can blame them. But I
29:04
do have to give them credit where credit is
29:07
due afterwards, after they open the
29:09
investigation and properly treat Daniel walk over as
29:11
a missing person. I do think the police do
29:13
everything they feasibly can. And you're going
29:15
to find out all about that.
29:18
I witness accounts obviously flooded in
29:21
once the police describing the same tall, skinny,
29:26
gaunt man with a weathered face and
29:28
unkempt hair standing near the bus stop
29:30
where Daniel had last been. Then
29:33
taskforce Argos provided
29:35
the police with a list of
29:37
known pedophiles they could confirm were
29:39
in the area that day. And
29:42
one of the names that stood out to the officers was
29:45
Brett Peter Cowan, aka
29:47
shadow Nanya. Born
29:50
in 1969. Brett was the third of four
29:53
boys born to Peter and Marlene Cowan.
29:57
Peter was a military man and Marlene was a
29:59
stay at home mum and pillar. the local community
30:01
in Kepperer in Brisbane, which is where the cowens
30:03
eventually settled down. And
30:05
from the very beginning, Brett was the
30:08
black sheep of the family. He
30:10
struggled academically and his behaviour outside of
30:12
school was troubling, to say
30:14
the least. By
30:17
the age of just 10, Brett's
30:19
sexual deviance was already starting
30:21
to show. He'd approach
30:23
younger boys in the local swimming pool and
30:26
fondle them under the water and
30:28
occasionally he'd even lure them into the changing
30:30
room, which is very similar
30:33
actually to Warhead and
30:35
what he starts off doing. Brett
30:38
began molesting a younger
30:40
female relative as well that same year and
30:43
would continue to do so for close to
30:45
a decade. He'd
30:47
later say that it hadn't occurred to him that
30:49
what he'd been doing was wrong until he was
30:51
much older. While his
30:53
three older brothers were excelling in school, Brett
30:56
dropped out in year 10. And
30:59
this is when Brett's delinquent behaviour really
31:01
began to ramble. By the
31:03
time he was 18, Brett had been
31:05
in court multiple times for petty crimes.
31:08
His quiet, church-going parents didn't know how to
31:10
deal with any of it. But
31:12
it wasn't until the 5th of
31:14
December 1987 that they'd find out
31:16
just how depraved their son truly
31:19
was. 18-year-old
31:21
Brett was carrying out some court-ordered
31:23
community service doing maintenance work at
31:25
a child care centre, which seems
31:28
like the worst possible place to
31:30
put someone like that. As
31:32
he worked digging around some pipes, Brett's attention
31:34
was focused on a group of boys playing
31:36
nearby. He was specifically
31:39
taken with one blond-haired, seven-year-old
31:41
boy. When
31:43
nobody was watching, Brett took the
31:45
child to a nearby toilet and
31:47
raped him. That
31:50
night, the little boy went home and told
31:52
his mum everything. The
31:55
arresting officer would later comment on how shocked he
31:57
was at Brett's nonchalant behaviour as they placed him
31:59
in cuffs. Brett was
32:01
charged with sodomy and with child abuse but, for
32:04
some reason, he was allowed out
32:06
on bail. And
32:08
of course, Brett had absolutely no intention
32:10
of returning for his trial. He
32:13
vanished, successfully for over a
32:15
year, until the police finally caught
32:17
up with him in Sydney. Eventually
32:20
Brett pleaded not guilty, forcing
32:23
his young victim to have to
32:25
face him at trial. The
32:28
little boy pointed straight at Brett
32:30
when asked in court who had
32:32
abused him. And
32:34
Brett, again very similarly to
32:37
Warhead, just smiled.
32:40
Somehow the jury concluded that Brett was
32:42
guilty of abuse but that the charges
32:45
of sodomy hadn't been proven. As
32:48
a result, Brett was sentenced to two years
32:50
in prison, of which he only
32:52
served one. When
32:55
Brett was released, his parents sent him to
32:57
live with his grandmother, in
32:59
Murachida. But before long, Brett
33:02
moved out and went back to his old
33:04
ways, stealing and breaking
33:06
into houses. In
33:08
1991, while living in Namboor, Queensland,
33:11
Brett met an 18-year-old girl
33:13
called Tracy Hanval and dug
33:15
his hooks in. Before
33:18
long, Tracy moved in with Brett at the
33:20
BP Palms Caravan Park in Darwin. And
33:23
for a while, life was actually quite good
33:25
in the trailer park. A
33:27
lot of other residents were Tracy's age and the
33:29
couple would spend their evenings barbecuing and drinking beers
33:31
with their new mates. Brett
33:33
even seemed to have sorted himself out a bit by
33:35
landing a job. But soon
33:38
enough, Brett began using it again and
33:41
started disappearing every night. Then
33:44
came the night that changed everything, on
33:47
the 23rd of September 1993. Tracy
33:50
had come home to find the trailer locked up and
33:53
no sign of Brett. She'd
33:55
long suspected that he'd started cheating again
33:57
and thought that maybe it was to do with that. While
34:00
Tracy was running around looking for her shitty
34:02
boyfriend, she found out that
34:04
Brett wasn't the only one missing. One
34:07
of the little boys from the trailer park had
34:09
also vanished. Later that night,
34:12
Brett suddenly turned up, walking
34:14
back from the showers without a care in
34:16
the world. He
34:18
told Tracy that he'd gotten dirty trying to steal
34:20
some sprinklers or something. How does one steal a
34:23
sprinkler? I don't know. I mean, if anyone is
34:25
going to steal a sprinkler, it's him. And
34:28
before Tracy even got a chance to question him,
34:31
the sound of sirens filled the air. Emergency
34:35
vehicles were headed for the BP petrol station down
34:37
the road. The missing boy had
34:39
just stumbled in there looking for help. He
34:41
was naked, bleeding, covered in mud and barely
34:44
breathing. His injuries were
34:46
so bad that the paramedics weren't certain that
34:48
he was going to survive. As
34:51
he was taken off to the nearest hospital, detectives
34:53
locked down the entire trailer park. Nobody
34:56
was going to go in or
34:58
out until everyone had
35:01
been interviewed. At
35:03
the hospital, doctors discovered that the boy
35:06
had been beaten and strangled, which
35:08
is why his face was covered
35:10
in blood blisters and bruises. He
35:13
had a collapsed lung, a deep wound in
35:15
the back of his head, lacerations all
35:17
over his legs and around his
35:19
scrotum. The little boy had
35:21
also been raped with something that had
35:24
caused serious internal bleeding. It
35:27
was a miracle that he was still alive, and
35:29
even more of a miracle that he'd mustered up the
35:32
strength to give the officers
35:34
some vital information. The
35:36
boy said the man who had attacked him was
35:38
from the trailer park. He
35:40
was tall, skinny and had mousy brown
35:42
hair. According to the
35:44
boy, the man lived in the trailer opposite
35:47
the toilets and kept a bike out front.
35:50
Brett claimed that he'd been in his trailer the
35:52
entire time and that his girlfriend Tracy
35:54
could back him up. But Tracy
35:57
did not back him up. Good for you, Tracy.
36:00
And so, when officers checked Bette
36:02
Cowan's records and saw that
36:04
he'd previously been convicted of assaulting a child,
36:07
they arrested him faster than you can say Macey
36:09
Brown-Hare. During his
36:11
interrogation, Brett went from flat-out denying
36:14
everything to saying, I wish I'd
36:16
never done it, I wish it had never happened, I'm
36:18
sorry. Brett was
36:20
sentenced on the 14th of June
36:22
1994 on charges of gross indecency,
36:24
grievous harm and deprivation of liberty.
36:27
Because he pleaded guilty to these charges, the
36:30
attempted murder charge was dropped. And
36:33
the judge also decided to give Brett the benefit
36:35
of the doubt due to his apparent remorse
36:38
and promises to seek help. What
36:40
the judge didn't know, however, was that Brett
36:43
had been abusing children since the age of
36:45
10 and he was never
36:47
going to stop. In
36:50
the end, Brett, and now
36:52
twice convicted child rapist, let
36:54
that sink in, was
36:56
sentenced to just seven years in prison. And
36:59
he was released after just
37:02
three and a half. It's
37:04
honesty so, so dark.
37:08
He served one year for the first
37:10
incident and now three and a half
37:12
for this. It's mind-boggling, like
37:15
how he just manages not even to slip through
37:17
the net because he's arrested and
37:19
convicted, but how minimal
37:22
these jail terms seem. And
37:24
again, look, we got in a lot of
37:26
like shit when we did the Peter Phar Hunters episode.
37:29
But what I'm going to say is again, it also shows
37:31
you how just imprisoning people
37:33
who do this, it
37:36
doesn't solve anything anyway. Even if
37:38
he had got a longer sentence, there's
37:40
no conversation that happens anywhere about what you
37:42
do with people that are like Brett Peter
37:44
Cowan. It was something I couldn't stop thinking
37:46
about when we were doing the research for
37:48
this episode. I'm like, the parents are like,
37:50
he's a wrong one. He's molested children.
37:52
He's raped his own cousin
37:55
from the age of 10 for a decade afterwards.
37:57
And when confronted with it, all he says later is
37:59
like, I didn't say that it was a wrong thing to
38:01
be doing. If your child does something like
38:04
that and you're presented with it, what
38:06
do you do? Like, what do
38:08
you actually do? It's
38:10
just this whole thing of like, what do
38:12
you do with somebody like Brett Peter Cowan,
38:14
who is a relentless and persistent and committed
38:17
abuser? Like, what do you actually do? But
38:19
he's been doing it since he was 10.
38:22
At what point do you intervene? What is
38:24
the process? What's the procedure? It all
38:26
just feels so futile, and it
38:28
obviously just ends in tragedy. So
38:31
during his time in prison, Brett attended
38:34
a sex offenders course, and
38:36
like many before him, he found
38:38
Jesus. When he
38:40
was released, his mother's sister, Jennifer, and her
38:42
husband agreed to take Brett in, which I'm
38:45
just like, are you serious?
38:48
But they do, they agree. And they
38:50
probably did it because Keith and Jennifer Philbrook
38:52
were pastors at the Suncoast Christian Church. And
38:54
look, I'm not gonna slack them off. I think
38:56
they genuinely see met two people that were like,
38:59
we can help him. He found Jesus, we can
39:01
help him get him on the straight and namely. This
39:04
church that Keith and Jennifer
39:06
ran was just a few roads
39:08
away from where Daniel Morco would
39:11
go missing in 2003. I
39:14
think you can all see that. Brett
39:17
moved him to his aunt and uncle's granny fort
39:19
in Bly Bly, which
39:22
is the name of the place. I can look
39:24
it up. It reads like it's Bly Bly, but
39:26
it's Bly Bly. And the way she got.
39:30
However, living here, there would
39:32
be strict conditions. Brett would have to
39:34
pay $65 a week for rent. He'd
39:36
have to attend their church. And he
39:39
had to absolutely get a job. I
39:42
just think that's so
39:44
astonishingly noble. And
39:46
one of the major reasons that
39:49
there is such a lack of resource
39:51
for like rehabilitating sex offenders is that
39:53
nobody wants to fucking do it because
39:55
it's horrible. Yep, yep. And really,
39:58
really difficult. a tool
40:00
ever successful. So
40:03
yes, I understand why there's
40:05
all those problems with resources and also because nobody wants
40:07
to be the politician that comes out and says, this
40:09
is what we're going to do. Because everyone will be
40:11
like, oh, you're a non-sympathizer. Yeah. And you're going
40:13
to spend my tax money on rehabilitating
40:16
people that I would rather kill myself if
40:18
I got my hands on them. Exactly.
40:21
And look, I really have
40:24
no sympathy for Brett Peter Cowan. It's
40:26
the ramifications and the effects and
40:28
the lives that people like him destroy
40:30
and what we should and could do as
40:33
a society to stop that happening. I don't
40:35
know what that is. There will always be
40:37
predators and predators will always exist in places
40:40
where they can abuse their power.
40:42
And typically they will go after children,
40:44
the elderly, etc. What do you do about that? I
40:46
don't know, but this case is so
40:48
infuriating. So for a
40:50
while, Brett was living with his
40:52
aunt and uncle and he seemed
40:55
to have reformed. But then
40:57
his parents gave him a car and
41:00
this car gave Brett his freedom back. Freedom
41:03
that he used to stay out all night
41:05
doing drugs. I
41:07
think there are people that blame his parents for
41:10
giving him a car. But I'm like, Brett
41:12
was going to do this regardless.
41:15
You think a car was the only thing slipping him
41:17
from doing what he goes on to do? I
41:20
think it's incredibly hard. I have all the sympathy
41:22
in the world for his parents because what the
41:24
fuck do you do? Probably
41:26
not enable him. But there
41:28
we go. The
41:31
car gave Brett his freedom back. Freedom that he
41:33
used to stay out all night doing drugs. And
41:36
very strangely, despite being
41:38
on parole, Brett was never
41:40
once visited by a parole officer who
41:43
should have been drug testing him. In
41:47
the summer of 1998, Brett met
41:49
another young woman named Tracey
41:51
Moncrief and just like
41:53
he had with Tracey Hanvold, Brett
41:55
immediately dug his grubby little hooks into her.
42:00
In he saw the good in everyone. And.
42:02
This is why when Brett reveal to
42:04
have some of the details of his
42:06
criminal history and told her I for
42:09
formed I sound god. She.
42:11
Believed him. Pretty. Soon
42:13
the power dating and once again Brett seem
42:15
to turn himself around. He. Stopped guy
42:18
house at night and doing drugs and even told
42:20
Tracy that he wanted to wait until they were
42:22
married to have sex. Just.
42:24
A few days later, Brett rate Tracy.
42:27
In. The ground isn't. But
42:29
he apologized and promise never to do
42:31
it again. And the
42:33
peg got married in September the following year. Before
42:36
the wedding, a pasta had pulled Tracy aside.
42:38
Have a word. He tells her that a
42:41
fifteen year old girl from the church had
42:43
accused Brett of attempting to rape her. But.
42:46
Tracy refuse. To believe it. And
42:48
she married Brett anyway. I'd
42:51
miss one of those cases way or like it's
42:54
definitely not the everyone was like, oh, my God,
42:56
I never saw it coming guess where. Ever
42:58
one Zurich coming. And look
43:01
again, at what point do you stop
43:03
blaming people because his pasta. Knows
43:05
that a sixteen year old girl has told
43:07
him. That. Brett has. He
43:11
told casey. He. Can he
43:14
He He. He
43:16
didn't He told the police is it again this
43:18
they have like I don't wanna you know, bring
43:20
drama to our door. We don't need that but
43:23
how Born Tracy. You
43:25
do to the police. And you
43:27
you can say that maybe he doesn't wanna put
43:29
Tracy in a position where she's been confronted. Him
43:32
in confident. I don't know how that
43:34
relationship works I guess of thousands. Of
43:37
confidentiality. But. Then also I know that teaches
43:39
if a child comes to you as as can I
43:41
tell you something. And they're about to make a disclosure
43:43
of the peace in this country and I know in
43:45
Australia and last to they have mandatory reporting. And.
43:50
You will keep a secret you cannot say. Please tell
43:52
me I won't tell anybody. You're not allowed to say
43:54
that because you have a duty to report in Australia
43:56
for have managed to put in. Which means that if
43:59
you find out something. That jogging abuse or you
44:01
should reasonably have suspected and you didn't report
44:03
it. You can go to jail. Now
44:06
of the see the same amount of because that makes people
44:08
think. He just
44:10
collapsed everything. One thousand hot water
44:12
lakes on the like, This
44:15
past it doesn't report that. Is
44:18
a kinda. Shocking. To me.
44:25
Okay, I have to talk to you about audible.
44:27
This is very serious. I use it
44:29
every single day. Audible isn't all in
44:31
one Oduya entertainment and you'll always find
44:33
the best of what you love or
44:35
something new to discover. Audible is
44:38
a home a storytelling. They have started
44:40
wellness programs, theatrical performances, comedy and exclusive
44:42
Audible. Originals from top celebrities. Renowned,
44:44
expert and exciting new voices in audience.
44:47
and I completely recommend Lisa to Als.
44:49
None of this is true. It's such
44:51
a great mystery thriller set inaudible member
44:53
you can choose one title Palmer. To
44:56
keep from their entire catalogue new members
44:58
contrite would whoop the free for thirty
45:00
days this it audible.com/red handed or text
45:03
red handed to five hundred Five hundred.
45:05
That's audible.com/red handed or text right handed
45:08
to Five Hundred Five Hundred. When
45:11
you're venting it, conceal back to just watching
45:13
your money disappear into a big black hole.
45:16
But what if you want just burning cash?
45:18
What is your rent look? a little more
45:20
rewarding with Built For was your rent money.
45:23
Isn't just paying the landlord? It secretly
45:25
plotting to fund your future dream home.
45:28
Built. Is breaking ground as the
45:30
Spurs To Rewards program. To hook
45:32
you up with points on your rent even
45:34
if you're paying by check. Every
45:36
month pay your rent and what's the built.
45:39
Points role in. Use points
45:41
to jess off when your dream
45:43
vacation put your points towards a
45:45
flight will hotel stay with over
45:47
five hundred and lines and over
45:49
seven hundred thousand hotels and properties
45:51
or even used to points towards
45:53
a future rent payment. Pay.
45:55
Rent hassle free through the Built Rewards.
45:58
Your. Rent game just got. major
46:00
upgrade. Built points have been consistently
46:02
ranked the highest value point currency
46:04
by the points guy and bank
46:06
rate. Earn points by paying rent right
46:08
now when you go
46:11
to joinboth.com/redhanded. That's
46:14
join both.com slash
46:16
redhanded. Now
46:23
let's fast forward a year. The married
46:25
couple, Tracy and Brett, were
46:27
living together in a cottage in
46:29
Beowar. While Tracy did all
46:31
the housework cooking and cleaning, Brett
46:33
was busy growing weed under the house, doing
46:35
drugs all night and watching porn in the
46:37
living room. And it all
46:40
comes as absolutely no surprise that he wasn't
46:42
watching any regular porn. Brett
46:44
enjoyed watching bestiality and hardcore
46:46
violent amputee sex seems to
46:49
have been his particular flavour.
46:53
He'd even show it to his wife hoping
46:55
that she'd like it. She
46:57
didn't. Then came
46:59
the point of no return for Tracy. She
47:02
got pregnant and gave birth in July
47:04
2008. Later
47:07
that same year just before Christmas Day, a detective
47:10
from taskforce Argos knocked
47:12
on their door. He
47:15
was there to speak to Brett about his
47:17
whereabouts on the 7th of December, the day
47:19
that Daniel Morecambe had vanished from that bus stop.
47:23
Brett very calmly explained that he'd picked up
47:25
a mulcher from a man called Keith Davis so
47:27
he could get rid of some tree branches in
47:29
his garden. He
47:31
explained he'd left around 1.30pm,
47:35
picked up the mulcher at 2 and was
47:37
home by 2.30 at the latest. To
47:40
the detective shock, Brett
47:42
had just placed himself in
47:45
the area of Daniel Morecambe's
47:47
disappearance. At the
47:49
exact time Daniel Morecambe disappeared.
47:53
When asked whether he'd seen a boy in
47:55
red waiting for a bus, Brett
47:58
said he hadn't. His wife... Tracy
48:00
then confirmed Brett's story, and
48:02
so did the man that Brett said he'd borrowed the
48:04
Moultra from. The neighbours also
48:07
confirmed that they'd helped Brett get rid
48:09
of the tree branches that afternoon at
48:11
the time he'd claimed. So
48:14
how could Brett have had time to lure
48:16
Daniel away, murder him, hide his body and
48:18
make it home in time to do the
48:20
gardening within that tight time frame?
48:24
But then again, what were the odds
48:26
that a convicted paedophile who was known to kidnap
48:28
and rape children just so happened to be in
48:30
the right place at the right time and
48:33
not have had anything to do with
48:35
Daniel's disappearance? A
48:39
few months after this visit, Tracy got pregnant
48:42
with a second child. By
48:45
which point Brett was away for weeks at
48:47
a time, supposedly mining in north Queensland. It
48:50
would be months before Tracy found out that
48:52
he had actually been living with another woman.
48:55
And when Tracy confronted him about it, Brett
48:57
decided to walk out on his wife, his
48:59
young son and the unborn child and move
49:01
in with his new boyfriend. But
49:04
that relationship ended quickly when this new
49:06
girlfriend found out that Brett was what
49:08
he was, a paedophile,
49:11
or, as apparently they say
49:14
in Australia, a rock spider.
49:18
So with nowhere to go, Brett turned
49:20
to the only people in his life who
49:22
refused to give up on him. His
49:25
parents. In
49:28
2005, two years after Daniel
49:30
had gone missing, detectives
49:33
decided to re-analyse Brett's alibi
49:35
by retracing his route with a
49:38
step-lage. Speaking with Tracy
49:40
again and checking his
49:42
phone records. What
49:44
they learned was that there was at least 40 minutes
49:47
unaccounted for. And
49:49
considering the fact that Brett had carried out his
49:51
last two attacks in mere minutes, 40 minutes
49:54
was plenty of time for him to have taken Daniel.
49:58
So in July 2005. Brett
50:00
was called in for another interview to go
50:02
over his alibi. The
50:04
police got nowhere though and detectives
50:06
finished by asking him one last question.
50:10
If you had abducted Daniel would you tell me? To
50:13
which Brett simply responded, probably
50:16
not. In
50:18
2008 Brett moved into a house share
50:20
in the Brisbane suburb of Durrock with
50:23
an 18 year old girl called Claire
50:25
and her father David. Brett,
50:29
who was now 38 years old, asked
50:32
his father Peter to help him move in and
50:35
look again hindsight all that. Are
50:38
you going to live with your 18 year old daughter
50:40
and move a 38 year old man into the
50:42
house? Don't do
50:44
that. The Parenting
50:46
Book podcast once again just
50:48
don't do that David.
50:52
Why? Desperate times I
50:54
suppose. Find a granny, find
50:56
anyone else, not him. Within
51:00
just three months Brett was sharing a bed
51:02
with the teenage Claire and he
51:04
managed to manipulate her into taking part
51:06
in his twisted sexual fantasies. These
51:09
fantasies often ended with Brett choking
51:11
Claire until she passed out. Just
51:14
to remind everybody he's 38 years 18 years old. When
51:19
they weren't together Brett was out having sex
51:21
with men that he met online. In
51:24
2009 Brett and Claire had moved into a
51:27
caravan on Briby Island. It
51:29
was here that one day Brett suggested that
51:32
they try a kidnapping rope. He
51:35
told Claire to pretend to be a teenage runaway
51:38
and he'd be a stranger offering her a lift
51:41
and then she'd pretend that he was raping her
51:43
when they got to the cave. Claire
51:47
didn't need to pretend because Brett actually
51:49
did violently rape Claire that day. When
51:52
he finished he asked his crying girlfriend
51:55
was it good for you too? Claire
51:57
would go on to give birth to Brett's third.
52:00
child in December 2009. Following
52:03
this, Brett hung out for a while but eventually
52:06
decided to cut all ties with Claire and
52:08
start afresh in Western Australia and
52:11
his ever-supportive parents gave
52:13
him $5,000 to get on his feet. On
52:18
11 October 2010, an inquest into
52:20
the disappearance of Daniel Morcombe began. During
52:23
the second half of the inquest in January 2011,
52:27
Brett was summoned for a public cross-examination
52:29
in front of a courtroom full of people, including
52:32
Daniel's family. Brett
52:34
spoke freely about his early life, the two
52:36
convictions that he had for abusing children sexually,
52:38
let's remember, and the fact that he
52:41
started abusing children when he was just ten years old.
52:44
And then came the topic of the day that
52:46
Daniel disappeared. Brett
52:48
immediately denied any responsibility and
52:51
then the prosecutor tore him apart.
52:54
The prosecutor began by asking Brett if he
52:56
knew how rare a crime it was for
52:59
a boy under the age of 18 to be
53:01
kidnapped in public and for the perpetrator
53:03
never to be found. He then
53:05
answered his own question by stating that
53:07
in Brett's lifetime, such a
53:10
crime had never ever occurred in
53:12
the state of Queensland apart from
53:14
in Daniel Morcombe's case.
53:17
He went on to point out that as
53:19
of December 2003, Brett was
53:21
one of the very few people in Queensland, if
53:24
not the whole of Australia, who
53:26
had a proven history of kidnapping and
53:28
raping young boys after snatching them in
53:30
public. Here's what he
53:32
said. So, if
53:34
you didn't have anything to do with Daniel's disappearance,
53:37
have you considered how unlikely a scenario
53:39
it is that you, with the extensive
53:42
history of having kidnapped boys and assaulting
53:44
them in a way that might lead
53:46
to their death, happen to be
53:48
in the very place at the very time
53:50
that this once in a decade, once in
53:52
20, 30 year event occurs? Have
53:56
you thought about how incredibly unlikely
53:58
that is? The
54:01
prosecutor was making a very interesting
54:03
point as to the statistical impossibility
54:05
of Brett not having been guilty.
54:08
But Brett Peterstone, Shavadon
54:11
and your hunter, knew that
54:13
they didn't have shit on him. So
54:17
he kept his logic. And he
54:19
boarded his plane back to Perth the following day,
54:22
assured that nothing would come of it. And
54:25
that was when he met the handsome
54:27
stranger who changed his life. Joe
54:30
Emery. What
54:33
Brett didn't know was
54:35
that Joe Emery was
54:37
an undercover police officer. In
54:40
fact, every single
54:42
person in the secretive criminal
54:45
organisation that Brett had joined, thanks to
54:47
Joe Emery, was also an
54:49
undercover police officer. And
54:52
every single quote-unquote crime that Brett
54:54
had committed with the gang had
54:57
actually been a carefully scripted and
55:00
planned fictitious scenario
55:02
written by police. Okay. I
55:05
know. They literally go
55:07
to brothels, they go to different
55:09
places, various different businesses to collect
55:12
gambling, debts, extortion, money, whatever. There's
55:14
so many actors involved in this.
55:17
And it went on for months.
55:21
So this is what's known as a Mr
55:23
Big Operation. It's not
55:25
something we've come across before in those hands.
55:27
No, it hasn't. And it's very interesting. Apart
55:29
from being known as a Mr Big Operation,
55:31
it's also known as the Canadian Technique.
55:34
It's the opposite, basically, of the usual
55:37
sort of police undercover operation, where an
55:39
officer poses as a criminal in order
55:41
to infiltrate a gang of real criminals.
55:45
In a Mr Big Operation, the
55:47
police pose as the criminal organisation
55:49
themselves and seduce their suspect
55:51
into joining them. Then
55:53
they gain the suspect's trust, carry out
55:55
crimes together, and pay them until
55:57
their target feels like he's part of the family.
56:01
That's when their target meets the big
56:03
boss, or Mr Big, who
56:05
is actually a skilled police interrogator.
56:09
This Mr Big tells the suspect
56:11
a prerequisite to joining the gang
56:13
is to reveal their entire criminal
56:16
history to him. This
56:19
controversial technique was first used in Canada way
56:22
back in 1899 and it has since been
56:26
used over there 350 times and it
56:28
has an incredibly high conviction rate. Mr
56:32
Big was first used in Australia in
56:34
the 1990s and over the years it
56:37
has worked to varying degrees of success.
56:41
And successful or not, it is
56:43
controversial. For one
56:45
it involves deception and manipulation, which
56:48
has led to false confessions from vulnerable
56:50
suspects in the past, particularly
56:52
those with low intelligence or mental
56:54
health issues. Defence
56:56
lawyers have also challenged the admissibility of
56:58
evidence obtained through Mr Big operations, arguing
57:01
that the techniques used constitute entrapment and
57:03
coercion. Which like
57:06
they do. There
57:08
have also been cases where individuals have
57:10
been wrongfully convicted based on evidence obtained
57:13
through Mr Big operations. Some
57:16
argue that the pressure and incentives used
57:18
during these operations can lead innocent people
57:21
to confess to crimes they didn't commit.
57:24
This is why Mr Big operations are actually
57:26
totally prohibited in a bunch of countries, including
57:29
the UK and the US, due
57:31
to high standards for what constitutes
57:33
a voluntary confession. So
57:36
right or wrong, it's a total
57:38
murky mess. I know different people who
57:40
have different opinions on this, especially because the
57:42
Daniel Walker case is a very, very,
57:44
very big case. Very very poor
57:46
case in Australia. And there are
57:48
a lot of people who feel like the ends justify
57:51
the means. And sure, in cases where it's
57:53
successful you can be like, what's the
57:55
harm? But there
57:57
are so many problems and this
58:00
type of investigation is
58:02
absolutely riddled with ethical concerns.
58:05
So now, let's get back to where we left off earlier.
58:08
Brett had just admitted to Fitzy that he
58:10
was the prime suspect in the
58:12
disappearance of Daniel Morcom. Fitzy
58:15
once again reassured Brett that all he
58:17
needed to do was to be completely
58:19
honest and the organisation would fix everything
58:22
because they were his family after all. Brett
58:25
had no idea every single
58:27
car he entered and every person in
58:29
the quote unquote gang that he spoke
58:31
to was wired
58:34
with recording devices. A
58:37
few days later, on the 9th of
58:39
August, Fitzy told Brett that Arnold, Mr
58:41
Big, wanted to see him. It
58:44
was the day that Brett had been treading
58:46
for so long. But then
58:48
Brett remembered how the organisation had helped Joe.
58:51
Remember, they told him that Joe was in some trouble. They'd
58:53
given him some money, sent him off to London with a new
58:55
identity. So surely they could do the same for him.
58:59
Fitzy took Brett to the Perth Hyatt Hotel,
59:01
where Arnold was waiting for him in a
59:03
room rigged with microphones and a camera. A
59:06
group of detectives were in the room next
59:08
door, listening to and watching everything.
59:12
Brett sat down on the sofa opposite Arnold
59:14
and Arnold explained what the problem
59:16
was. They had a huge
59:19
job coming up and they all stood to
59:21
make a lot of money. But
59:23
Brett's situation made him a liability
59:26
to everyone involved. Arnold
59:29
asked Brett to be totally honest with him. And
59:31
if he was honest, Arnold could fix everything
59:33
just like he had for Joe. What
59:36
he meant by that was that he
59:38
could make the entire case against
59:41
Brett go away. All
59:43
Brett had to do was tell him the
59:45
truth. Everything
59:47
hinged on this singular moment.
59:51
Months of tireless efforts from over 50 undercover
59:54
officers. All that planning,
59:56
all that work and an incredibly
59:58
costly operation that stretched. across the
1:00:00
entirety of Australia. This
1:00:02
was it. Now
1:00:05
what you're about to hear is a clip from the
1:00:07
40 minute recording of the
1:00:09
conversation between Arnold and Brett that
1:00:12
day. Now
1:00:30
I can sort things out. I can buy
1:00:32
alibis. I can get rid of all that kind
1:00:34
of things that need to be done. I can do. So
1:00:37
I need to know what I need
1:00:39
to do. And like I said, I can't
1:00:41
sort out what
1:00:44
I don't know. So look,
1:00:47
what happened? It happened I sorted
1:00:49
out honesty, trust, respect. Because
1:00:52
I'm told that you're pretty loyal. You
1:00:55
build up a good relationship with some of
1:00:57
the board and and they speak
1:00:59
very highly of me. So what do I need to
1:01:01
fix? Yeah,
1:01:03
okay. No.
1:01:07
Okay, I did it. Oh,
1:01:09
okay. So you did it? Well, I'm saying,
1:01:11
leave me for the whole fucking thing. The
1:01:14
jaws of every detective in the
1:01:16
next room who was listening in
1:01:18
were on the floor. But
1:01:21
they couldn't celebrate just yet. And
1:01:23
Arnold knew that. The job wasn't
1:01:26
done and he didn't miss a beat. With
1:01:28
Brett having just confessed to the murder of
1:01:30
Daniel Morco, Arnold told him that
1:01:33
he needed to take him through everything that
1:01:36
took place that day. Brett
1:01:38
told Arnold that he just picked up a
1:01:40
vulture from his friend and was driving home
1:01:43
when he spotted Daniel standing alone waiting for
1:01:45
the bus. So
1:01:47
he parked up his car and walked up
1:01:49
to Daniel. He pretended
1:01:51
to wait for the bus. And
1:01:53
when the bus drove past, Brett told
1:01:55
Daniel he was going to the shopping centre and asked
1:01:57
if he wanted a lift. Daniel
1:02:01
said yes. Daniel
1:02:03
got into the car willingly thinking he was
1:02:05
getting dropped off at the plaza just 10
1:02:07
minutes away, but Brett took
1:02:09
him to a secluded spot by an abandoned
1:02:12
house in the Glass House Mountains
1:02:14
in Biwa, 30 minutes
1:02:16
away. Daniel had
1:02:18
freaked out when Brett tried to pull his
1:02:20
pants down, so Brett said that
1:02:23
he panicked and choked him. And
1:02:26
before he knew it, Daniel Morecambe
1:02:28
was dead. He
1:02:30
never got to my room or anything quite
1:02:33
about. He panicked, and I panicked and grabbed
1:02:35
him around the side and just fought on
1:02:37
the order of his death. Alright, how long did
1:02:39
it take you to put your family out, you know?
1:02:42
Didn't seem long. Alright. Brett
1:02:45
then put Daniel's body in the boot of
1:02:47
his car, drove about
1:02:49
100 metres away to some thick
1:02:51
bushland, and threw
1:02:53
the boy's body down an embankment.
1:02:57
He then climbed down after Daniel, dragged
1:02:59
him further through the trees, stripped him
1:03:01
of his clothes, and left
1:03:04
Daniel's naked body into some branches. Brett
1:03:07
then threw his clothes into a fast flowing creek,
1:03:10
went home to his wife, and carried
1:03:12
on as though nothing had happened. Brett
1:03:16
told Arnold he went back to try and bury the
1:03:18
body a few days later, but that
1:03:20
it was gone. All
1:03:22
that was left was a single bone fragment
1:03:25
that he crushed with his shovel and then buried.
1:03:29
Even after this damning confession, Arnold
1:03:31
didn't break character. To
1:03:34
make sure that Brett would go away
1:03:37
forever, Arnold needed him to take them
1:03:39
to the scene of the crime. So
1:03:42
Arnold reassured Brett once again
1:03:44
that he would take care of it, and
1:03:47
the group would get rid of any evidence that
1:03:50
Brett may have left behind. The
1:03:53
following day, Brett was sent back to Brisbane on
1:03:55
a plane with Fitzy and another gang
1:03:57
member to show them where he had
1:03:59
come. killed Daniel and
1:04:02
where he'd left the body. By
1:04:05
this point it had been over seven years since the
1:04:07
murder and the abandoned house
1:04:09
that Brett had taken Daniel to was
1:04:12
no longer there. At
1:04:14
the site Brett told Fitzy I
1:04:16
didn't mean to kill him, I just wanted to have
1:04:18
some fun with him. He
1:04:21
added that he hadn't left the house planning on
1:04:23
molesting a child that day but said
1:04:25
that he was just an opportunistic
1:04:27
offender. Brett also revealed
1:04:30
the reason he changed his name to Shadow and
1:04:33
that it was to make it harder for the police to subpoena
1:04:35
him. It's hardly lame.
1:04:37
No. They know who you
1:04:40
are. Like even when
1:04:42
he's telling Fitzy these things it's like he knows
1:04:45
or suspects that the people in this gang won't be
1:04:47
okay with him being a child molester and a murderer.
1:04:49
He's just unable to like really explain exactly what he's
1:04:51
doing. He's just like I didn't mean to kill him,
1:04:53
I was just having fun with him. Oh is that
1:04:56
too much? I didn't leave the house planning on molesting
1:04:58
a child that day. I'm just an opportunistic offender. What
1:05:00
does that mean? That's such
1:05:02
like legal pointless talk. He's
1:05:05
such a strange person. But
1:05:09
Fitzy would later recall a brief moment
1:05:11
where he saw Brett showing some real
1:05:13
emotion for the first time. They
1:05:16
were discussing how Daniel's body could have disappeared
1:05:18
after just a few days when
1:05:20
they spotted a pack of wild dogs walking past. Brett
1:05:23
started shivering and chanting under his breath. I'm
1:05:26
sorry Daniel, I'm sorry Daniel, I'm sorry Daniel.
1:05:29
But then just as quickly he snapped out of it,
1:05:32
looking at it with a smile. Yes, I mean
1:05:34
you can never land on whether he actually feels
1:05:37
any remorse for anything he's done or
1:05:39
whether he's kind of taking the piss or whether it's a
1:05:41
bit of an act. Yeah. Three
1:05:44
days later Brett Peter Cowan was placed
1:05:46
under arrest and charged with murder, interfering
1:05:48
with the corpse and indecent treatment
1:05:50
of a child under 16. There's
1:05:54
a video online of the exact moment
1:05:56
that Brett Cowan is placed under arrest
1:05:59
and the exact moment that he learned that everybody
1:06:01
in the gang that he had loved
1:06:03
so much for all those months had
1:06:06
actually been an undercover officer all along. And
1:06:10
another weird thing about Brett is
1:06:12
how nonchalantly he reacts to everything because
1:06:14
that's exactly what he does here. Like
1:06:16
he did every single time he'd been arrested for hurting
1:06:18
a child. It's completely unbelievable.
1:06:22
Over the following weeks police recovered some of
1:06:25
Daniel's remains and clothes in the area that
1:06:27
Brett had led them to, in
1:06:29
the Glasshouse Mountains. So
1:06:31
his guilt really became beyond
1:06:33
question at this point. Brett's
1:06:37
trial began on the 10th of February 2014. Over
1:06:41
the months-long proceedings, 116 witnesses
1:06:44
gave evidence. Over
1:06:46
200 pieces of evidence were
1:06:48
exhibited and Brett's parents and
1:06:50
brothers gave victim impact statements. Brett,
1:06:53
however, pleaded not guilty, declined
1:06:56
to give evidence and stated that he
1:06:58
had no remorse. He
1:07:01
was found guilty on all charges and sentenced
1:07:03
to life with the possibility of parole after
1:07:05
20 years. Today
1:07:08
Brett Cowan is still serving his
1:07:10
sentence in Brisbane and
1:07:13
has been assaulted multiple times by other inmates.
1:07:17
If you google him at any point there's
1:07:19
just countless articles about how
1:07:21
he's been attacked. Now the devastated Morcombe
1:07:23
family have since started the Daniel Morcombe
1:07:25
Foundation in an
1:07:35
effort to educate children across Australia about
1:07:38
personal safety and to raise
1:07:40
awareness about the dangers of predatory criminals. Daniel
1:07:44
was born the same year I was
1:07:46
so he would be 35 this year
1:07:50
and although the man who killed him is
1:07:52
finally behind bars, the
1:07:54
Morcombe's grief over the past few
1:07:56
years has seemed never-ending. Thanks
1:07:59
in most to Brett. Cowan and his
1:08:01
pleas to appeal his conviction.
1:08:04
So as of March 2024, Brett
1:08:07
Cowan has now exhausted all legal
1:08:09
avenues open to him to challenge
1:08:12
his conviction at long last.
1:08:15
To which Daniel's mother Denise tweeted, throw
1:08:19
the keys away. I never want to
1:08:21
hear that name again. RIP
1:08:23
Dan. And
1:08:26
that is just the ongoing pain and suffering
1:08:28
of families who become victims like this. Not
1:08:31
only did they get the conviction, in
1:08:33
2011 it has
1:08:36
taken another 13 years
1:08:39
for the appeals to stop. Of
1:08:41
which they would have had to go to every single one. It's
1:08:44
just mind boggling. And that's the danger
1:08:46
of operations like Mr Big. There
1:08:49
were grounds for something to be questioned. And
1:08:53
it's so hard because obviously you will
1:08:56
always want a watertight case. And
1:08:59
when you do an operation like that, they are
1:09:01
open to challenge. This one got, this one made
1:09:03
it, which you know must have been incredibly
1:09:05
difficult to pull off. But false
1:09:08
confessions do happen. And yes, I'm glad to
1:09:10
hear that the Canadian model is banned in
1:09:12
the UK and the US. But I will
1:09:14
add that the standards for interrogation
1:09:17
manipulation in the UK are much higher than they
1:09:19
are in the US. It's illegal for
1:09:21
the police to lie to you here. So
1:09:24
yeah, I think you know, a happy ending in
1:09:26
as much as it's possible to have one here
1:09:28
that at least Brett Peter Cowan is in prison.
1:09:30
I don't think he will be released ever on
1:09:32
parole. I'm sure he will die behind bars. And
1:09:35
it's prevented any other children that would have
1:09:37
crossed his path from being abused again. The
1:09:40
way in which this happened, although
1:09:43
feels very impressive and very Hollywood
1:09:45
and like, actually they have made
1:09:47
an entire film about this
1:09:49
case, it's called The Stranger. I think
1:09:52
it came out like last year, this year, very,
1:09:54
very recently. And Daniel Morghulme's
1:09:56
parents have obviously been like, it's a disgusting
1:09:59
cash grab. But it's got some
1:10:01
very, very big name stars in it. And
1:10:04
again, it's all because it's like, oh, so dramatic and
1:10:06
so Hollywood, and like they do this whole undercover Mr.
1:10:08
Big operation, and everybody's in on it, and look at
1:10:10
how they pulled it off and they got the result.
1:10:12
But I'm like, so dangerous.
1:10:14
It could have been the reason
1:10:16
that Brett got out. Yeah. Or
1:10:19
never went down in the first place.
1:10:21
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it also could
1:10:23
have even gone further than that. Imagine they had
1:10:25
been found to do something really unethical here. What
1:10:28
could have been the other ramifications of like that?
1:10:30
Could that then have been used by other criminals
1:10:32
who had been convicted using the same technique to
1:10:34
open up appeals and then get their convictions overturned?
1:10:37
It's so dangerous. Yeah. But
1:10:40
that's the story. Yeah, this
1:10:42
time it worked. That's the
1:10:44
best you can say about the Mr. Big operations
1:10:46
is, phew, this time it worked. And phew,
1:10:48
he's not getting out. But
1:10:51
the toll it must have taken on the more poems for
1:10:54
over two decades. It's just heartbreaking.
1:10:58
So that's it, guys. That is the story of
1:11:00
Daniel Morcomb. You did ask for it.
1:11:03
I did put the question out on my Instagram.
1:11:06
And we wanted to see what people would say because
1:11:08
we also wanted to pull you all in. Ozzy's listened
1:11:10
to this episode and you chose it. And
1:11:13
don't worry, New Zealanders. There is a New
1:11:15
Zealand episode coming very soon. We
1:11:17
haven't forgotten about you. We love you
1:11:19
too. Good, good bye. Bye. Audible
1:11:39
is the destination for thrilling audio entertainment.
1:11:42
Allow your imagination to be peaked by
1:11:44
stories that are brought to life through
1:11:46
captivating sound design, eerie soundscapes, and dynamic
1:11:49
performances. As an Audible member, you'll be
1:11:51
able to keep your heart rate up
1:11:53
month after month because you can choose
1:11:56
one title a month to keep from
1:11:58
the entire catalog. the latest
1:12:00
bestsellers and new releases. If you're
1:12:02
in the mood for a shocking
1:12:05
psychological thriller, check out None of
1:12:07
This is True by Lisa Jewell.
1:12:09
Embrace brand new exclusive thrillers from
1:12:11
bestselling authors who are guaranteed to
1:12:13
keep you gripped. New members can
1:12:15
try Audible free for 30 days.
1:12:17
Visit audible.com/thrill or text thrill to
1:12:19
500 500. That's audible.com/thrill
1:12:23
or text thrill to 500
1:12:25
500. A new true crime
1:12:27
podcast from the team
1:12:30
behind up and vanished. In
1:12:32
2016, Justin Alexander, an
1:12:34
adventurer was invited on a trek by
1:12:36
an Indian holy man. They
1:12:39
headed to a spiritual ground in the Himalayan mountains,
1:12:42
a place beyond civilization. The
1:12:45
holy man returned and said nothing. But
1:12:47
Justin was never seen again. What
1:12:50
happened to him? Dive deep
1:12:52
into our investigation and uncover the
1:12:55
strange events surrounding Justin's disappearance in
1:12:57
status untraced. Check
1:12:59
out this sneak preview. And
1:13:02
this last experience he had with
1:13:04
reward. You didn't see it. It sounds strange.
1:13:13
By the chest in my mother's heart. Something
1:13:15
was not okay. I felt
1:13:17
that he was a nefarious character.
1:13:20
Status Untraced is available now. Listen
1:13:23
for free on Apple podcasts, or
1:13:25
wherever you get your podcasts.
Podchaser is the ultimate destination for podcast data, search, and discovery. Learn More