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49. How Sunlight Helps you Lose Weight with Zaid K. Dahhaj

49. How Sunlight Helps you Lose Weight with Zaid K. Dahhaj

Released Thursday, 21st December 2023
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49. How Sunlight Helps you Lose Weight with Zaid K. Dahhaj

49. How Sunlight Helps you Lose Weight with Zaid K. Dahhaj

49. How Sunlight Helps you Lose Weight with Zaid K. Dahhaj

49. How Sunlight Helps you Lose Weight with Zaid K. Dahhaj

Thursday, 21st December 2023
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0:00

Today I am speaking with Zaid Dahaj

0:02

. He is a men's health coach who

0:04

has had extensive self-education into

0:06

the underlying drivers of chronic diseases and

0:09

has similarly arrived at circadian

0:11

biology as a fundamental pillar

0:13

of optimal health . In

0:15

this podcast , we discuss the non-visual

0:18

photoreceptor system , particularly

0:20

melanopsin . We also talk about

0:22

why sunlight helps you lose weight . Pro-opioam

0:25

, lanocortin or pom-C , by building

0:27

melanin is an important health strategy

0:29

, and much more . I hope you

0:31

enjoy this conversation with Zaid

0:33

. Okay

0:44

, zaid Dahaj , thanks for coming onto

0:46

the Regenerative Health podcast .

0:49

Thank you for having me , Max . I'm very excited .

0:51

So you have been posting some very

0:53

, very interesting threads on Twitter

0:55

recently that are approaching

0:58

a bunch of topics , particularly

1:00

around circadian biology sunlight

1:02

, with a very interesting

1:05

bent . I think

1:07

what you've been posting about is very similar

1:09

to what I have been talking . That

1:13

is , this idea that we

1:15

are fundamentally beings

1:17

of light . So

1:19

there's deeply encoded physiological

1:23

adaptions and pathways

1:26

in our body that speak to our

1:28

physiology's use

1:30

of light in health . So

1:32

I'm really excited to do

1:35

a deep dive with you on around these topics

1:37

, but maybe we could just start by

1:39

giving the listener a bit of background

1:41

about yourself .

1:45

Yeah , so I come from a more unconventional

1:47

background . Let's say I

1:50

don't have any conventional certifications or

1:52

degrees to my name . I've been

1:54

purely driven by obsession ever since around

1:56

2015 , when my father

1:58

passed of heart disease . So

2:01

, considering that heart disease is the

2:03

leading global killer , that's something

2:05

that really pushed me into an area

2:07

of health , an area of obsession , to

2:09

really figure this stuff out at the fundamental

2:11

level , and I've been very grateful

2:14

because it's allowed me to follow this path of

2:16

helping people through my coaching , whether

2:20

it's online , whether it's in person , and

2:22

really I guess I just have the

2:25

bug bit me , so to speak . I just have the obsession

2:28

to go as deep as possible , and really I do

2:30

think it's a lifelong journey for me

2:32

, as I'm sure it is for you as well .

2:35

Yeah , and that curiosity is something that I

2:37

respect immensely . And I think

2:39

, in this modern day where

2:41

we have got so many competing

2:43

narratives and there's so many interpretations

2:46

of the scientific literature by different

2:48

people , by different organizations that might

2:50

all have different interests , I

2:53

respect anyone who really applies

2:55

their knowledge and their

2:57

intellectual horsepower to

2:59

really try and work out what's going on , and

3:02

that's what I think you've done and you

3:04

continue to do . So it's great to see . So

3:07

let's dive in and talk about this

3:09

idea of a non-visual

3:12

photoreceptor system . It's

3:14

a bit of a mouthful , it sounds quite

3:17

a obscure or esoteric

3:19

concept , but why don't you

3:21

give us an overview of how you think about

3:23

this system ?

3:26

Sure . So I like to think about it in a very simplistic

3:28

manner . These are so non-visual

3:31

photoreceptors are just

3:33

light sensitive proteins that absorb

3:36

specific wavelengths of light . So a

3:38

few I think three of the most important ones that

3:40

come to mind are melanopsin , which is inherently

3:43

a blue light detector . You

3:45

have neuropsin , which is inherently a UVA

3:47

light detector , and then you have

3:49

rhodopsin , which I

3:51

believe detects green and is more oriented

3:54

around low light environments . So

3:56

just the very fact that we

3:58

have these options within our

4:00

system that are designed to take in natural

4:03

light from the sun , I think

4:05

that has huge implications for not

4:07

only centralized but decentralized medicine and

4:09

really how we approach chronic disease , because

4:12

in my opinion , the eye is the gateway to

4:15

not only the brain but the entire

4:17

system as a whole , and once we

4:19

can figure out how to orient our light

4:21

environment in a way that is fundamentally

4:24

aligned with that non-visual photoreceptor

4:27

system , then I think we can see some very

4:29

excellent results in terms of metabolic health

4:31

and just remission of chronic disease as well

4:33

.

4:34

Yeah , and the way

4:36

I also like to frame it for people is everyone

4:39

can understand this idea of

4:42

proteins that help us form images

4:44

, and everyone knows that , because

4:46

that's obviously what the eye is for . It can show

4:48

us that you've got a tiger about

4:50

to rip your head off , you've got

4:52

, you can see the tree , you can see your child

4:55

. But people , I don't think

4:57

, realize that these

4:59

photoreceptors are also present and

5:01

to simply detect the specific

5:04

wavelengths of light , as

5:06

you've talked about , and

5:09

the Melanopsin one . I think that's a

5:11

good place to start , because people

5:13

, it was the first one that was discovered and

5:16

what I like to remind people

5:18

is that the way it was discovered , or

5:20

one of the kind of interesting scientific

5:23

prompts for its discovery , was that

5:25

people , who certain

5:28

blind people , were still able to

5:30

sleep at the right times . So

5:32

it basically raised this question

5:35

about so what was able , what

5:37

was allowing them to respond to circadian

5:39

cues so that they go to sleep at

5:41

the right time if they couldn't see anything , so

5:45

that I guess maybe we could go into that and talk

5:47

about the history of the Melanopsin and then maybe

5:50

why it's so important . Yeah

5:52

.

5:54

Well , as I mentioned , just the very fact that you shared

5:56

right there is astonishing the idea that blind

5:58

people can can entrain

6:00

their circadian systems in a proper way even though they

6:02

can't see visually . Melanopsin

6:05

is , you know . It's found all throughout

6:08

the body , but a few of the places , of course the

6:10

eye , the subcutaneous fat , which

6:12

which Uncle Jack has shown recently

6:14

through his research , I

6:17

believe some other places as well , the skin . So

6:20

you find this blood vessels

6:22

, which is has huge implications for cardiovascular

6:25

disease in all sorts of other conditions

6:27

. But the

6:29

mirror nature of Melanopsin

6:32

sensing blue light from the sun

6:34

, is a very key point , because I always

6:36

like to make this distinction between artificial

6:38

blue light , that's inherently toxic , and

6:40

natural blue light from the sun . That's

6:43

, I think , a big area of confusion for people . But

6:47

you know , once you understand that it is a blue light detector

6:49

, then you can . You can create a lifestyle

6:51

around protecting yourself from artificial light and

6:54

then making sure that you maximize

6:56

natural blue light within the day as well .

6:59

Yeah , and and that distinction I don't

7:02

think many people are making and not

7:04

they're not realizing that what we're getting

7:06

from LED downlights

7:08

, from screens , is fundamentally

7:10

different to the blue

7:13

light that's present naturally

7:15

. So maybe talk about how

7:17

you think about that distinction .

7:19

Yeah

7:22

, Well , I mean that distinction

7:24

. I think , like

7:26

I said , it's one of the most misunderstood ones . But

7:28

it really

7:30

does come down to the fact that we just have to get more natural

7:32

light from the sun . And what a lot of people don't

7:34

think about is that the sun is a perfectly

7:37

balanced package

7:39

of light wavelengths , so every single

7:41

light wavelength is meant to balance the others

7:43

. And that's what I find

7:45

kind of disingenuous , when people refer to studies

7:47

that show that UVA or UVB causes

7:50

skin cancer in nocturnal

7:53

animals , things of that nature . But

7:56

really it's just about maximizing sunlight and

7:58

protecting yourself from artificial light , and that's something

8:00

that I go great length , go

8:02

to a great length for , especially

8:05

when it comes to things like building melanin . I mean , there's

8:07

a lot to the conversation , but that's

8:10

that's really how I think about it . And

8:12

UVA , because the way I translate

8:14

that to clients is in a simple manner

8:16

, like all the scientific jargon and

8:18

you know the intricacies , that

8:21

stuff doesn't really appeal to the masses , in my opinion

8:23

, and it doesn't work because most

8:25

people just throw it out .

8:27

If you give them the practical action steps , I think that's

8:29

more helpful and from my perspective

8:31

at least , yeah , one

8:33

way I like I've described it in the past is

8:35

you know , imagine the blue light that you're getting

8:38

from your LED as the , the meth

8:40

, the methamphetamine of light . And

8:42

I say that because it's essentially distilled

8:45

and refined and highly highly processed

8:47

, and whereas the blue light

8:49

you're getting from the sun is balanced by

8:51

UV during the day , at

8:53

certain times it's balanced by red

8:55

and infrared . When you , when you're simply

8:58

under those blue lights , you're

9:00

only getting , you know , a

9:02

pure kind of meth hit of blue

9:05

, and it's it's highly stimulatory and and

9:07

highly , highly destructive

9:09

to to these Melanopsin receptors

9:12

.

9:15

Yeah , yeah , highly , highly destructive . And

9:17

also on a fundamental , like cellular

9:20

level , the way it interacts with the mitochondria

9:22

, the way it destroys the , the

9:24

ATPase , biological nanomotors

9:26

, I mean . This is , these are not

9:28

small matters , and I

9:30

think it's on

9:32

the education part , in terms of what we have

9:34

to do is just explain this in a simple manner

9:37

for people who are not aware , because when

9:39

when the average person hears that you know , artificial

9:41

light is toxic , it's abstract

9:44

, they don't really understand what they , what that means

9:46

, because they don't have a fundamental grasp

9:48

of physiology or biology

9:51

, especially when it comes to mitochondrial

9:53

function as well .

9:54

Yeah , and maybe let's talk about these specific

9:56

functions of melanopsin , and maybe I'll start

9:58

with one that people can really relate

10:01

to , and that is the pupillary light reflex

10:03

. So if you , you know you hit your head , unfortunately

10:05

, or you've , and you go into the emergency

10:07

department and the

10:09

, the doctor , the eye doctor , is shining a light in

10:12

your eye , the it's actually melanopsin

10:14

that are present in those specific retinal

10:16

ganglion cells . That is

10:19

transferring , is being received

10:21

the message and then is transferring

10:23

that message to to

10:25

the rest of your , your brain , to

10:28

enable that reflex . So

10:30

so what else is melanopsin doing , maybe

10:33

in the eye and then in the other sites that we talked

10:35

about ?

10:37

Well , I I believe that melanopsin has

10:39

a really key function . I mean , of course

10:41

, you can't separate all of the options within

10:43

the eye , they're all one system , so they , they

10:46

play a multi

10:48

, you know they , they run

10:50

along the same lines typically , but it

10:52

definitely has a stimulatory effect with blue

10:54

light , as you mentioned . So that's

10:56

why getting up and exposing yourself to early

10:58

AM sunlight is so important , along

11:01

with the other light wavelengths , so

11:03

it allows you to kickstart your , your circadian

11:05

biological system and just get ready for the day

11:08

so that other hormones , other

11:10

neurotransmitters , they're

11:12

able to function properly and you

11:14

get benefit out of that In

11:16

terms of the the blood vessels . I

11:19

think you know this is something I haven't I've dived

11:21

too deep on , but I would assume

11:23

that blue light has a

11:25

. It does penetrate the skin to some degree

11:27

and the impact that that has on the blood vessels

11:29

is just a positive one in terms

11:31

of making sure that blood flow runs

11:34

more efficiently . I've

11:36

done more research on cardiovascular

11:38

function and easy water and how

11:40

easy water might potentially coat and

11:42

protect the blood vessels . So

11:44

those are just a few things that come to mind .

11:47

Yeah , no , that's good . And yeah

11:49

, I read that recent paper , or was it in 2017

11:52

, when they discovered that the melanopsin was in

11:54

the the in these blood

11:56

vessels , and it was . It's mediating

11:58

what's known as photo relaxation . So what

12:01

that sounds like to me is that when we're outside

12:03

, when we're getting a natural sunlight

12:06

in the form of blue light , then it's

12:08

allowing those blood vessels to dilate . It's allowing

12:10

, you know , optimal blood flow

12:13

to occur . And you

12:15

could just imagine that when you're under

12:17

an artificial light and I'm not

12:19

sure exactly , maybe you know , say , if

12:22

you're constantly stim , stimulating those

12:24

melanopsin receptors or you're destroying

12:26

them with artificial blue light , then what is that

12:28

doing to to the body's

12:30

ability to to vaso

12:33

vaso dilate ? I'm not sure

12:35

that's that's kind of open for

12:37

for debate .

12:40

Yeah , it's an interesting question . So I

12:42

think you know blue light , natural

12:44

blue light from the sun , in combination with UV light . We

12:46

know that that that combination stimulates

12:48

nitric oxide within the skin . That

12:51

leads to the blood vessels . So

12:53

my hunch is that toxic

12:55

artificial light not only , not

12:58

only causes a vasoconstriction

13:00

of the blood vessels , so it it

13:03

doesn't allow for efficient blood flow . I

13:06

think it also destroys the function

13:08

of easy water , structured water , so to speak

13:10

, within those blood vessels . And so

13:13

you know , once you , once you destroy that

13:15

and then you get into glycolcalix dysfunction

13:17

, endothelium dysfunction , that's

13:20

. I think that's just a recipe for disaster

13:22

. And considering that most people are under blue

13:25

, artificial blue light 24 seven , now

13:27

we can start to see one of the big reasons why cardiovascular

13:30

disease is the leading global killer .

13:33

Yeah , no , that that's a great point . And

13:35

the there's so many ways

13:37

that sunlight is regulating end of vascular

13:40

health and endothelial health . And you've mentioned

13:42

the promotion of that exclusion zone

13:44

water . That is something that most doctors

13:48

, most cardiologists have no concept of and

13:50

I think one of the and I

13:53

tweeted about this recently , so the , the , the

13:55

idea for it to really summarize it

13:57

for the listener is that along

13:59

hydrophilic surfaces and along biological

14:02

surfaces we formed this exclusion zone

14:04

water , which is a change

14:06

in the physical property of water that essentially

14:09

excludes all , all solutes

14:11

, and and work by Stephen Hussie he did an

14:13

excellent presentation about this showed

14:16

that basically anything bigger than a potassium

14:18

ion is not able to penetrate exclusion

14:21

zone water . So the idea that

14:23

you know lipoproteins like LDL

14:25

can somehow magically teleport

14:28

from the lumen of the vessel

14:30

into the , into

14:33

the sub endothelial space in a healthy person

14:35

, it just doesn't make sense at

14:37

all to me .

14:39

Yeah , I mean , and and to think

14:41

about , like to think about cardiovascular disease

14:43

from that perspective is really

14:45

game changer , because it

14:47

really throws out a lot of the centralized

14:49

ideas in regards to what causes

14:52

cardiovascular disease . Of course they have some things

14:54

right , but I do really

14:56

think it's . It's enlightened me to

14:58

view cardiovascular disease from that perspective

15:00

, because my father passed from it , so I've

15:03

always been on the hunt for , you know

15:05

, that , that fundamental function , that once

15:08

it goes AWOL , once it becomes dysfunctional

15:10

, then that leads to a whole cascade which which

15:12

leads to , like heart attacks and strokes and

15:14

all those sort of sort of things .

15:17

Yeah , I'll make a couple more points just

15:19

on on the Melanofcin before we move on

15:21

. And I guess the

15:23

way I want people to think about it and I

15:25

mentioned this in my optimal skating health course is

15:28

that these , these

15:30

proteins , these light sensitive proteins

15:32

, are there for circadian

15:34

entrainment , meaning they're there to help

15:36

inform your body about

15:39

time of day . And just like we've

15:41

got that , that central clock in

15:43

the hypothalamus , you've got all

15:45

these other clocks that exist in

15:47

in all your other organs . You've got 70%

15:49

of your genome is is regulated by

15:52

circadian timing

15:54

mechanisms . So I really feel

15:56

like the one way of thinking about

15:58

this is the body has evolved this

16:00

spectacular way of gathering

16:02

light information so

16:04

it can time this exquisitely

16:07

complicated mechanism and

16:09

organism within the most fidelity

16:12

as possible . And when

16:14

you confuse those signals by

16:17

essentially spamming the melanopsin

16:19

In your skin and your eyes , you

16:21

know 18 hours a day with isolated

16:23

blue light and you know that that is

16:25

a problem on a very , very fundamental cellular

16:28

, subcellular love .

16:30

Yeah , yeah , purely because it just dysregulates

16:33

circadian biology . I mean , once you

16:35

go against that , that

16:38

evolutionary fundamental , then you

16:40

know everything is on the table in terms of chronic disease

16:42

and dysfunction . So I

16:44

think that's a very important point to mention

16:46

. And then Also one thing that

16:48

I do want to mention with all of the options

16:50

in general is that they're tied directly

16:53

to the vitamin a cycle . So they're tied

16:55

to 11 cis retinol and you

16:59

know , once you , once you destroy the vitamin

17:01

a cycle through artificial light , which is very

17:03

common through throughout society , I mean

17:05

, you can lead to some some serious downstream

17:08

effects there .

17:10

Yeah , and look that that is kind of the

17:12

one reason why Dr

17:15

Jack cruise is talking about the harm of

17:17

blue light . Is this idea that we're

17:19

destroying melanopsin , it's basically

17:21

liberating vitamin

17:24

a From this retinol , from

17:26

its binding to

17:28

, to to these vote non-visual photoreceptors

17:30

, and that that is having down a downstream

17:32

cascade and and

17:35

generating Meta

17:37

mitochondrial dysfunction so that

17:39

that kind of gets a big technical but that's

17:41

. That is a it's very

17:43

interesting and groundbreaking concept

17:45

that you know , no one I believe no

17:47

one else is really addressing .

17:52

Yeah , I actually have a question for you . Do

17:54

you know of course , a lot of

17:56

parts within the body are able to regenerate

17:58

Do you know if non-visual photoreceptors , specifically

18:00

, are able to regenerate if you , if you take a circadian

18:03

friendly approach ?

18:04

Well , I think that's that's the key point about

18:06

why this whole

18:09

whole system is is derailing

18:11

so badly is because it's a longer wavelength

18:13

, like the infrared and the red

18:15

, that regenerates the

18:18

, the Melanopsin and other non-visual

18:20

photoreceptors . So if we

18:22

take a holistic view and we imagine

18:24

that with on the savannah or you know , in

18:27

our ancestral past , we would have had

18:29

that early morning red and infrared , as

18:31

you know , we would have hit all the different

18:33

wavelengths of UV and then that would have faded

18:36

. So you know , we've stimulated melanopsin

18:38

during the middle of the day and obviously

18:40

when , when red , when blue

18:43

light is its brightest , but then later in

18:45

the day . That whole process is

18:47

that is , enabling the

18:50

, these non-visual photoreceptors , to to repair

18:52

and regenerate . And then

18:54

I think that the clincher is is the

18:57

light at night , because if

18:59

we're not getting any Darkness

19:01

, any true darkness , because of light pollution , and

19:04

we're continuing to stimulate them , then

19:06

I think that's a kind of another whammy

19:08

in terms of preventing them from

19:10

regenerating them and damaging them .

19:13

Yeah , and I assume melatonin

19:15

definitely has a big part to play in terms of its antioxidant

19:18

capabilities with that regeneration

19:20

correct .

19:21

Yeah , yeah , I believe so and so

19:24

. So that's that's . That's talking about Melanopsin

19:27

, really , and that's good . And in terms of

19:29

the actionable advice , I you

19:31

know , in my course I say you basically have to cover up

19:33

and I post a photo of a I

19:36

don't for the last Star Wars fans out there . It's

19:38

a photo of the sand people in

19:41

in the in the first Star Wars

19:43

movie and they basically covered up completely

19:45

and essentially that's what we want to be doing

19:47

, because Not only

19:49

is that Melanopsin in

19:52

our skin , in our Blood vessels

19:54

, as we talked about , in our eyes , but it's also in

19:56

the fat tissue and and that was that other

19:58

Paper when they discovered that there

20:00

was Melanopsin in the adipocyte , in those subcutaneous

20:03

white Fat tissue . That

20:05

is another reason how metabolic health

20:07

can be implicated if we're constantly under

20:09

, could be deranged if we're constantly

20:11

under artificial blue light .

20:14

Yeah , and I'd also like to cover

20:16

the opposite end of the spectrum as well with natural

20:18

blue light . So a while back I wrote

20:20

a thread . I found some research showing

20:23

that , I believe natural , natural

20:25

blue light actually makes your

20:27

adipocytes , your fat cells , smaller in

20:30

size and it actually increases the

20:32

rate of Fat burning within

20:34

those adipocytes . So that's

20:36

another reason why I've come across a lot of people

20:39

who have reported that you know , after sunbathing

20:41

, consistently , not only do they look

20:43

leaner , but from a physiological standpoint

20:45

, they actually are leaner . So it's interesting

20:47

to see this dichotomy between toxic , artificial

20:50

blue light and natural blue light from the sun .

20:52

Yeah , look , I love you that you brought that up because

20:54

it gets to this idea about personal

20:56

fat threshold and Within kind

20:58

of metabolic medicine within low carb medicine

21:00

. It's this this idea is

21:02

that when we reach this arbitrary Personal

21:05

fat threshold , then we

21:07

start depositing fat ectopically

21:09

, yeah , you know , within the abdominal

21:12

cavity , in in visceral white adipose

21:14

, but then also within organs

21:16

like within the liver , within within the

21:19

muscle . So so what

21:22

? I think the limitation of this approach

21:24

is that it doesn't give

21:26

us enough clarity about the

21:28

factors that are influencing this personal fat threshold

21:30

. And you know , researchers like Tucker

21:32

Goodrich have done a great job at showing

21:34

that some of the the linoleic acid

21:37

breakdown products can Can

21:39

influence that personal fat threshold . And

21:41

, and obviously I've talked to Blazor Boris recently

21:44

and he Really makes a strong case

21:46

that it's actually the deuterium in

21:48

the sea dolls that are really causing

21:50

basically a butch known as a Macro

21:53

molecular crowding in the cell and you

21:55

basically get an energy excess and

21:57

the mitochondria start failing . But the the

21:59

reason why what you've talked about is important is because

22:02

it speaks to this idea that light

22:04

is influencing our fat , our personal

22:06

fat threshold , and Light

22:08

is influencing the adipocyte pathophysiology

22:11

. So not only you

22:14

know these inherent , inherent

22:16

personal genetic factors , not only

22:18

dietary factors , but our light environment

22:21

is going to dictate whether those cells are

22:23

simply Developing

22:27

larger size or or

22:29

, and then potentially spilling

22:31

over or in inflammatory compounds , or

22:34

if they're able to Replicate

22:36

or maintain a more healthy size . So

22:38

yeah , I'm really glad you

22:41

brought that up . Have you noticed that you've

22:43

empirically noticed that when you put your clients in

22:45

the sun , that their weight loss improves ?

22:50

Oh , substantially . It's not something

22:52

that I was particularly looking for as well , until

22:54

after I started getting reports from some of my clients

22:56

Not even people who were clients , just people

22:58

who followed some of my advice on sunbathing

23:01

and doing that properly . But

23:03

that led me down that rabbit hole and I'm very grateful for

23:05

it , because to me that was

23:08

an astonishing fact . Just the idea that you could get leaner

23:10

and

23:13

reduce body fat to a certain degree just

23:15

with sunbathing and light that's

23:18

just astonishing from my perspective , which

23:20

is why I also put light above

23:23

nutrition , because I think there are other factors

23:25

involved . I still think nutrition is important

23:27

, but that goes to show that , in my

23:29

opinion , I think light is just the most fundamental aspect

23:31

of this game .

23:33

Yeah , let's riff on this for a moment , because

23:35

what we're discussing is why

23:38

Dr Jack Cruz has

23:42

put sun before food , why you've just mentioned

23:44

the same . I

23:46

will mention a quick mouth study

23:49

that basically shows the opposite of what you

23:51

talked about . That was a

23:53

study where they had a six-month period

23:55

of two groups of mice One

24:00

were fed the same diet but one was on a

24:02

shift work schedule , so chronic

24:04

circadian disruption With the exact

24:06

same diet . The circadian disrupted

24:08

mice had hypertrophy

24:11

of their dipocytes , so again

24:16

, not an ideal responses . They

24:18

had fibrosis , they

24:21

had raised inflammatory markers

24:23

in that fat tissue and they were insulin resistant

24:25

. That shows I know

24:27

it's a mouth study , but it gives us a really good

24:29

proof of concept of this idea that

24:31

it's not just the food that you're eating , it's

24:33

the actual light environment that you're eating that food

24:36

in that can potentially influence

24:39

your metabolic health . The

24:41

other thing that I want maybe you can talk about is and

24:44

I think this is central to this idea of weight

24:46

regulation and sunlight is the POMC

24:48

system .

24:52

This one . I think the two most fascinating

24:55

systems in my opinion are non-visual photoreceptor

24:57

system and POMC . In general , every

25:01

mammal has something called the POMC gene and

25:04

that leads to a protein called

25:06

POMC as well Proopiomelanocortin

25:08

. Essentially , this protein is

25:10

fundamentally stimulated by natural

25:12

light and it's also , in my opinion , stimulated

25:14

by artificial light . So , just like general , when

25:17

you stimulate this let's say you stimulate it through

25:20

sunlight , the ideal way , circadian-friendly

25:22

way then this protein

25:24

has about maybe seven

25:26

or eight biological

25:30

peptides that are cleaved to this protein . You

25:32

have things like alpha , beta , gamma , msh

25:35

, melanocyte-stimulating hormone . You

25:37

have ACTH these are just abbreviations

25:40

. You have CLIP . What

25:43

are the beta ? Endorphin is a huge one , an opioid

25:45

peptide . Just

25:47

from this mere fact that light stimulates

25:49

all of these peptides that are some of the most powerful

25:51

ones in nature . I think

25:53

that has huge implications for not

25:56

only the clinicians out there , but for

25:58

even decentralized health coaches or

26:01

people who are in this work .

26:03

Yeah , and

26:05

the centrality of POMC

26:08

to the organism's physiology

26:10

. I don't think it can be understated because

26:12

, as you mentioned , acth

26:15

is produced

26:17

in the pituitary gland and then goes

26:20

down and signals the adrenal cortex to make

26:22

cortisol One

26:24

of the most fundamental and hypothermic

26:28

pituitary adrenal axis . That's one

26:30

of the most fundamental pathways in the body is

26:32

it's a cleavage product of POMC . Obviously

26:36

, we know that having a persistently high

26:38

cortisol will push your blood sugar up

26:40

and that is the effect of cortisol

26:43

. It's a glucose corticoid . Glucose

26:45

means glucose . Why people

26:48

get a spike of your blood glucose

26:50

in the morning is because you've got a natural cortisol

26:53

rise . So cortisol is liberating

26:55

, it's promoting gluconeogenesis

26:57

, it's liberating energy . So

27:00

if you're stimulating POMC in the wrong way

27:02

, then of course you're going to be dysregulating

27:05

glucose metabolism . So

27:07

I think that's a really

27:09

important point .

27:12

Yeah , and not only through ACTH

27:14

as well . So you're raising cortisol through that mechanism

27:16

. You're also raising insulin through

27:19

CLIP as well , because CLIP is an insulin secretagogue

27:22

, if I have that correct . So it

27:24

stimulates insulin production from

27:26

the pancreas , and

27:29

once you have that two-way punch , so to speak , from

27:31

artificial light , then I

27:33

think that can set up problems

27:35

for people who have type 2 diabetes

27:38

and other metabolic dysfunction .

27:40

Yeah , and I really Uncle

27:42

Jack or Jack Cruz , basically said that on

27:44

my podcast about almost six months ago and

27:47

I've really done my best to

27:49

verify this

27:51

with my own reading . I haven't found

27:53

a lot about CLIP other than

27:55

some very , very old papers

27:57

. His

27:59

point is that basically

28:02

the artificial light is hijacking POMC

28:04

. So just as natural

28:06

ultraviolet light is going to give us the

28:08

correct or physiological expression

28:10

of the POMC peptide hormones

28:13

in a way that optimizes our physiology

28:15

when we're constantly under blue light and we're

28:18

having a dysregulated light environment , then

28:20

it's essentially hijacking this gene to

28:22

turn up our blood

28:24

glucose , promote hyperinsulinemia

28:26

all around . But

28:29

if someone has more information on that , I'd

28:32

be very willing to look in . But

28:34

it makes sense to me that

28:36

that is what's happening . The

28:39

other ways of let's also talk about

28:41

how sunlight could potentially

28:45

act as a very , very strong

28:47

signal to reduce eating . Because you've

28:49

mentioned beta endorphin and

28:51

you mentioned alpha MSH and

28:54

I wanted to make the point that the pharmaceutical

28:56

industry knows how critical

28:59

the POMC system is

29:01

to appetite regulation and

29:04

that started when the first that

29:06

leptin hormone was discovered and they

29:09

realized that leptin , which was made in that

29:11

fat cells that we've just talked about before , is

29:14

actually signaling all the way up to

29:16

the hypothalamus and binding

29:19

to receptors on those POMC neurons to

29:21

inform the body about the energy state . So

29:24

they knew about that and they still do , and

29:26

they were designing medications

29:28

and one of them is called bupropion

29:31

naltrexone . It's a combination and

29:34

that particular drug was designed

29:36

to basically stop

29:39

a negative feedback loop by

29:41

blocking the effect of beta endorphin to

29:43

kind of reduce people potentially

29:45

affect the alpha MSH and reduce people's

29:47

eating . So they're aware

29:49

that this is an incredibly powerful

29:51

system to regulate

29:53

appetite . But what they don't tell you is

29:55

that you can stimulate alpha

29:57

MSH to reduce your

29:59

appetite by getting out and getting

30:01

ultraviolet light .

30:04

Yeah , yeah , and I believe , like I

30:06

mean generally , most of those peptides are

30:08

appetite suppressants , so you don't only have like

30:10

one or two working in your favor on that end , you

30:13

have almost all of them working in your favor . And

30:17

I just think that it goes against

30:19

mainstream orthodoxy

30:21

, because this idea that sunlight can

30:24

suppress appetite and influence

30:26

leptin in such a way that it can improve your metabolic

30:29

function and if you are in

30:31

a more negative relationship with food , that

30:34

just goes against everything that mainstream centralized

30:37

medicine has to offer , and I think the difficulty

30:39

is in trying to explain that to mainstream

30:41

practitioners especially . Yeah

30:45

, so I mean , when it comes to Pomsae and all

30:47

of the peptides that are our appetite

30:49

regulators , I think this just goes to show that we

30:52

really have an uphill battle

30:55

, to say the least , in terms of translating this work

30:57

into not only the understanding

30:59

of everyday people but the understanding of centralized

31:01

practitioners , and

31:03

just the fact that centralized medicine is

31:05

embedded in bed , so to speak , with big

31:07

pharma and big food . That

31:09

just makes it more difficult . But I think we're

31:12

doing a good job on within our

31:15

little decentralized realm online and translating

31:17

that into people getting results .

31:20

Yeah , I mean , I think I really want

31:22

to make a really strong

31:24

point for the listener and kind of do a

31:27

checkpoint here and what

31:29

the implication of what we're talking about is that if

31:31

you regulate your circadian biology

31:34

, if you stimulate Pomsae in

31:36

your eye , in your central nervous system

31:38

, in your skin , then

31:40

you will lose and

31:42

your white fat tissue , you will lose weight

31:44

and you will become leptin sensitive and

31:47

you will become metabolically healthy . And

31:50

the idea that insulin

31:52

resistance and what essentially mitochondrial

31:54

dysfunction is at the root of all

31:57

these chronic diseases is that what

32:00

that means is that you're not a

32:02

customer anymore for an

32:04

industry that is built on

32:06

people being sick . And

32:09

I made this point to a previous guest and I

32:12

have seen the degree to which one

32:15

person can be dependent on

32:17

a medical system and it is very sad , but

32:20

you can just take someone with end stage

32:22

type 2 diabetes and

32:25

the amount of resources

32:28

and medical care they require

32:30

. So they have got end

32:32

stage kidney disease so they might be on dialysis because

32:34

they've got such severe diabetic

32:37

nephropathy . They have got

32:39

diabetic nephropathy , they're

32:41

potentially blind or vision impaired so

32:44

they're not able to drive themselves anymore . They

32:47

might have severe

32:49

peripheral vascular disease

32:51

, they might have diabetic ulcers , so

32:53

they might be having vascular

32:56

bypass surgery to maintain use

32:58

and function of their legs . And

33:02

then they have these macro vascular complications , so

33:04

they might have had a stroke , they might have

33:08

had previous AMIs

33:10

, heart attacks , and

33:12

the list of medications that someone

33:14

with this condition is on is they're

33:17

on a statin , they're on blood pressure medication , they're on

33:19

multiple oral hypoglycemic

33:22

, they're on injected insulin . So all that to

33:24

say , it's a massive resource

33:26

and effort that needs

33:28

to care for someone like that , and what's

33:30

I and I discussing is that

33:32

, if we're regulating acerocating biology

33:35

, a lot of that could

33:37

potentially be avoided .

33:40

I firmly believe it too . I mean , just think

33:42

about how much money especially like specifically

33:44

where I am in the US we spend on healthcare

33:46

. It is an astonishing amount

33:48

. I mean , we're talking about billions of dollars

33:50

, maybe even trillions , I don't know . But

33:53

I think this just

33:55

goes to show that if we can educate

33:57

people the proper way and really get that

33:59

light bulb flicked on

34:01

, then we can take people from a more centralized

34:04

paradigm to a decentralized one , and

34:06

the ultimate goal for all of us is to just be in a healthy

34:08

state of living , just

34:10

to be healthy in general , so that we can enjoy life

34:12

and make the best

34:15

of it . But I think that's a very important

34:17

point just all the medications and

34:19

all the other complications that

34:21

stem from insulin resistance specifically .

34:24

Yeah , and maybe we

34:26

can talk about the kind

34:29

of prevailing narratives around the sun . Because

34:32

if people are accepting what we're

34:34

talking about , which is that there is amazing

34:36

health benefit to be had from sun

34:40

exposure and from regulators to acerocating

34:42

biology , then we really need

34:44

to address the sticking

34:47

points and the resistances

34:49

that people might have to that . And

34:51

the interesting point that

34:53

I'll also make is that that

34:55

same compound , alpha MSH , that regulates

34:59

appetite in your hypothalamus and your brain

35:01

. It is the same compound that is

35:03

influencing skin darkening and

35:06

therefore melanin synthesis

35:08

in your carapnocytes in your skin

35:10

. So I think that is

35:12

a really elegant explanation of

35:14

how central UV light is to

35:17

body weight regulation . It's

35:19

the same compound , the same string

35:21

of amino acids in

35:23

a different place , is tanning your

35:25

skin and making melanin , as is stopping

35:27

you eating . I

35:29

think that says a lot , that says an

35:32

amazing amount , but

35:35

your dermatologist is not able to describe

35:37

not that I'm a I haven't met one is

35:40

able to describe the leptomalana

35:42

cord and pathway , or pom-C , in a way that

35:45

makes that clear . So maybe

35:48

, zaid , you can talk about the

35:52

role or the role

35:54

of the sun and how we can use it safely

35:56

.

35:56

Yeah , Well

35:58

, there are definitely a lot of misconceptions out there

36:01

and I think I really enjoy

36:03

being at the front , you know , being at the

36:05

front line , so to speak , in terms of

36:07

like tackling these bad ideas in regards

36:09

to sunlight , because there are a lot

36:11

of them and unfortunately , a lot of the

36:13

board certified ophthalmologists and

36:15

dermatologists are pushing these ideas

36:17

. Even the skin cancer foundation

36:20

in the States is pushing the idea that

36:22

there's no such thing as a safe tan and

36:25

, knowing what we know , that's just an absurd statement

36:27

based off of first principles thinking . Because

36:30

not only like UVA

36:32

and UVB , for example , are the two centralized

36:35

boogeymen that a lot of people

36:37

say you should avoid . They say you

36:39

should practice that avoidance around , but

36:42

, like we mentioned , uva stimulates nitric oxide

36:44

production . It also

36:46

plays a role in other physiological functions

36:48

. Uvb is the very light

36:50

wavelength that's responsible for stimulating

36:53

vitamin D3 production . So

36:55

, how you know , where is the

36:57

like ? Where's the silver lining here ? How

36:59

does it make sense that centralized medicine demonizes

37:02

the sun , uvb

37:04

, specifically in terms of vitamin D3 production

37:06

? But it hails

37:08

. Vitamin D3 is a super hormone

37:11

. So I just think there's

37:13

a disconnect there . And in terms

37:15

of like melanin , for example , a

37:18

lot of people have this idea that melanin once

37:20

you start to get dark , then that's where

37:22

you should stop sunbathing . That means you've

37:24

had enough , so to speak , because if you go above that

37:26

you have potential toxicity . But

37:29

I think that idea is absurd because in

37:31

my opinion , knowing what we know with melanin the fact

37:33

that it disassociates the

37:35

water molecule , it's responsible for human

37:37

photometabolism , it's anti-venom

37:40

, anti-inflammatory antioxidant

37:42

, the list goes on I

37:44

think once you get a tan and

37:46

all people of all skin types can get a

37:48

tan then that that

37:51

really leaves the door wide open for more sunbathing

37:53

. So , like almost everything

37:55

in centralized medicine , the idea that they're pushing

37:57

is fundamentally wrong and it's the

38:00

opposite of what they're saying that

38:02

is more correct .

38:05

And I , yeah , go on , go on .

38:08

Oh , I mean , I was just going to go on a tangent about healthy

38:10

sunbathing practices and stuff like that , but that's

38:12

a little bit of a rabbit hole .

38:14

Yeah , I wanted to make the point that it's

38:16

a logical inconsistency and

38:19

, as you said , I like to similar to you . I like

38:21

to think things from first principles . So

38:23

if we have an undeniable

38:26

, unarguable biological need for

38:28

ultraviolet light for

38:30

those pathways that you've just mentioned , but

38:34

yet it is killing us , how much

38:36

should we get ? I mean , this

38:38

is the kind of cognitive dissonance that we're

38:41

all asked to engage in if we're

38:43

following these , you know

38:45

, complete UV avoidance narratives , which

38:47

is so 20 minutes , 10 minutes ? I

38:49

mean , where is that ? It's

38:52

just an arbitrary construct . There's

38:55

no solid scientific

38:58

or reason to

39:00

basically along

39:02

that line of reasoning . So

39:05

what I would really encourage people to

39:07

think about is that there is

39:09

obviously a disconnect here and the

39:11

same thing that is giving us life can't also

39:13

be giving us disease . And it might

39:16

be the case that how

39:18

we're using the sunlight is the

39:20

key point and what the lifestyle is

39:22

of people today and is

39:24

perhaps contributing to their

39:28

disease , their skin cancer , melanoma

39:31

, rather than the sun inherently

39:33

, or rather than the sun used in an ancestral

39:35

context .

39:37

Absolutely , absolutely 100% . It's

39:40

definitely the lifestyle around light

39:42

. I mean just the fact that people take

39:44

these recommendations and they practice

39:46

sun avoidance that's a big part of the discussion

39:49

. Being under artificial light 24

39:51

seven , that's a huge part of the discussion as well . And

39:54

then other finer things that not a lot of people are aware

39:56

of , like sunglasses , contact lenses

39:58

, sunscreen . Even

40:00

just being clothed up and not intentionally

40:04

sunbathing with most of your skin in the game

40:06

, that's

40:08

a big factor as well . So I

40:10

think in general , like any conventional

40:14

prescription of like 10 , 15 , 20

40:16

minutes of sunlight , you can throw that out the window

40:18

because it is all an individual

40:20

game . What we need to understand is that

40:22

all mammals , all human beings specifically

40:25

, can develop their melanin , and

40:27

I've seen this time and time again . I

40:30

literally have hundreds of comments on Twitter from

40:32

people who are like you know , I'm a redhead

40:34

, my daughter's a redhead . We've

40:36

practiced early AM sunlight exposure for

40:38

filigree and production , and then we've

40:40

really dosed ourselves up

40:42

in a way with midday sunlight to not

40:45

burn at all and to gain all of its benefits

40:47

. And also

40:49

, like this concept of the solar callus is

40:52

absolutely huge , like I

40:54

analogize it to just

40:56

approaching the gym Like nobody would go

40:59

into the gym and try to squat 250

41:01

pounds when they have no gym experience

41:03

, like it's absurd . And

41:05

so I try to teach people that you

41:07

have to approach sunlight exposure the same way

41:09

, and then eventually you will get

41:11

to a point , no matter what your skin type is , to where

41:13

you can spend five , six

41:15

, seven hours in the sun without any problems

41:17

whatsoever .

41:20

Yeah and great points . And I'll add some nuances

41:22

here which I always make . When

41:24

we're discussing deliberate sun exposure , and

41:26

that is , if you're taking photosensitizing

41:28

medications , which include

41:30

medications like isotretinoin , like

41:33

the antibiotic doxycycline , like

41:35

a whole bunch of other medications , then you

41:37

really you can't be doing deliberate

41:40

sun exposure . This also includes

41:42

immunosuppressing medications . So if

41:44

you're on high dose of glucocorticoids

41:46

, if you're on medications for

41:48

to specifically

41:51

prevent transplant rejection , biologic

41:54

agents , all these where you're modulating

41:57

your immune system , you're essentially pharmacologically

42:01

messing

42:03

with your body's ability to deal with the whole medic

42:05

stress that is the sun . So I want

42:07

to really caveat that . And if you're on these

42:09

type of medications , then deliberate sun

42:11

exposure is not going to be for you and

42:14

I would encourage you to hopefully

42:16

work on or address the livestock

42:18

causes of whatever is going on so you can move

42:21

past and then get

42:23

some deliberate UV exposure . But

42:25

prior to that UV rise

42:27

is the red and infrared . That

42:29

is safe and that is going to be safe for

42:32

everyone . And that's going to be even

42:34

safe for people with red hair , because

42:36

another point is that people with red hair

42:38

do have a high risk of malignant

42:40

melanoma . But

42:43

if we understand the different wavelengths

42:45

of light , if we can look at and

42:47

conceptualize the different wavelengths

42:50

of sunlight appear at different times , then we can

42:52

really tailor the approach

42:54

to allow people to gain

42:56

benefit of natural sunlight without

42:59

and perhaps , if they're especially medicated

43:02

, as I mentioned , without putting

43:04

them potentially at risk of UV

43:07

damage if they're not ready to

43:09

lift the 200 kilo

43:11

barbell , as you mentioned .

43:14

Yeah , yeah , and there's the nuance there

43:16

that I didn't even know about the

43:18

photosensitive medication . So that's an excellent point

43:20

. But this idea of atrophic

43:22

skin and just having unadapted

43:25

, weakened , dysfunctional skin because of the lifestyle

43:27

factors , that's the foundation of all

43:29

of this , and

43:32

I think it's important to understand that UV

43:34

does technically damage your skin , but

43:39

your body is infinitely wise in its ability

43:41

to respond to a hormetic

43:43

stressor and get stronger as a result , assuming

43:46

you do the right things around lifestyle . So

43:49

I mean , you're speaking my language . That's 100%

43:51

there .

43:52

Yeah , and great point , jade , because neither

43:55

of us are suggesting that UVA isn't

43:57

carcinogenic or UVB doesn't

43:59

have the potential to be carcinogenic . That

44:01

is unequivocal . What

44:04

both of us are saying is that if it's used

44:07

correctly , if the body's

44:09

hormetic ability

44:11

is preserved , then that is

44:13

not going to be injurious to the

44:16

organism . And it involves

44:18

doing everything that we've mentioned involves

44:21

getting that early morning read in infrared

44:23

first to precondition the skin . It involves

44:26

building up this idea of a

44:28

solar callus . So

44:30

there's proper ways of doing it and there's

44:32

improper ways of doing it . And

44:35

I like to draw an analogy to the

44:37

cholesterol and

44:39

heart disease , because the

44:42

predominant narrative within cardiology

44:44

and preventative cardiology is that any

44:47

level of LDL

44:50

, total cholesterol or APOB beyond

44:52

a very strict , arbitrary cutoff is

44:55

depositing a plaque in the arteries

44:57

. And there's no allowance or nuance

44:59

in that argument for a situation

45:01

where we can safely have

45:04

a higher LDL or higher APOB

45:06

. And it really ignores all that other

45:08

evidence . That includes things like people

45:11

living longer with higher LDL

45:13

, facts of

45:16

immune function that the LDL particle

45:18

has , the fact that it's traffic energy , fast-sufferable

45:21

vitamins . All that gets thrown out the window . And

45:24

I think that that analogy holds

45:26

in centralized dermatology

45:28

and this discussion around the sun , because we're basically

45:30

throwing out all the benefits of UV

45:33

light exposure , including the nitric

45:35

oxide , including the pom-C , including

45:37

the vitamin D production , and when we're telling

45:40

people to put UV blocking sunscreens

45:42

on all day to cover up

45:45

and do everything that you mentioned

45:47

in this advice .

45:50

Yeah , yeah , and it's extremely damaging to society

45:52

as a whole . It's only making the

45:54

state of our health worse , on

45:56

an individual and societal level , and I think it's extremely

45:59

sad , which is why it's

46:01

important for us to tackle these ideas head on , because

46:03

we just have no room for them . There

46:06

are archaic ideas led by

46:08

a system that is just not catching up

46:10

to what the evidence provides .

46:12

Yeah , and before we move on I

46:14

want to talk about Nelina next . I just want to

46:17

read out a

46:19

couple lines of a paper and I

46:21

am not the first person to reach

46:24

for epidemiology and I think that it

46:26

inherently has a range of flaws

46:29

, but when we're looking at a hard endpoint

46:31

like mortality , then it

46:33

can be much , much

46:35

higher quality . And I just want to quickly

46:37

read out for the listeners . This study is called

46:40

Higher Ultraviolet Light Exposure is

46:42

associated with lower mortality an

46:44

analysis of the UK Biobank cohort

46:47

study . So this paper was

46:49

published . In

46:52

what year was it published in ? It

46:59

doesn't make me exactly when it was published , but I'm just going to

47:02

read the conclusion

47:05

out for you , because I think this really sums

47:07

up very elegantly in

47:11

unequivocally what

47:13

Zayad and I have been talking from a mechanistic

47:15

point of view . So the discussion says

47:17

we find that the UK Biobank participants

47:19

with more active sun seeking behaviors

47:21

and who lived at lower at latitude with

47:24

a higher average UV exposure

47:26

, have a lower risk

47:28

of all cause , cardiovascular

47:30

disease and cancer mortality

47:32

. These results are consistent for

47:34

two very different types of exposure

47:36

, suggesting that

47:39

it is UV exposure and not an unmeasured

47:41

variable that leads to the lower

47:43

mortality risk . And

47:46

they go on to say that these results

47:48

add to the growing literature suggesting

47:50

that UV exposure is associated with lower

47:52

mortality risk , and it lists a whole

47:55

bunch of other papers . So

47:58

this is the square that this

48:00

is the question we need to ask to

48:02

people who are trying to tell

48:05

us to avoid the sunlight . That

48:07

is a pretty unequivocal , pretty

48:09

obvious in finding that you're

48:11

going to live longer , you're

48:13

going to get less cancer and cardiovascular

48:16

disease if you have a deliberate sun

48:18

seeking exposure .

48:20

Yeah , yeah , and I've come across a lot of research

48:22

in terms of , like , the farther you go from the

48:24

equator , the higher incidence

48:27

of cancer and all these other chronic diseases out

48:30

that you expose yourself to . And I think it

48:33

just makes sense from an evolutionary perspective , because

48:35

we evolved in the cradle of

48:37

civilization , so to speak , around the equator . So

48:39

you know , it was only thousands

48:41

of years after that which we traveled to

48:43

higher latitude areas

48:45

and then we set ourselves up in

48:47

those little little camps , so to speak . But that

48:50

just in my opinion , I think it just makes

48:52

sense , especially knowing all the mechanistic things that we

48:54

do .

48:55

Yeah , and to cap this off

48:57

, and one more very interesting point , it

49:00

says participants with more active

49:02

sun-seeking behavior also had lower

49:05

crude mortality from skin cancer

49:07

. From skin cancer , so

49:09

you can get , you're still

49:11

going to live longer even if

49:14

you're developing these

49:16

skin cancers . So

49:18

and an inverse relationship

49:20

between solar UV exposure and cancer mortality

49:22

. So , in terms of living

49:24

longer , which is the goal of your clients

49:26

, which is the goal of my clients

49:29

, my patients , this is what we

49:31

want to do and it's pretty obvious

49:33

that UV light is part of that . Let's talk

49:35

about melanin , because what

49:38

you talked about just mentioned earlier is that everyone's

49:42

told to get to the point or the

49:44

centralized advice is . Even tanning

49:46

is a problem , but you've described

49:49

a couple functions of melanin and I think

49:51

it bears out a little bit

49:53

more , deserves a bit more discussion about the

49:55

benefits of melanin .

49:57

Yeah , absolutely so . You

50:00

know melanin . When people think about melanin they only think

50:02

about tanning , and I think that's unfortunate

50:04

because if you search through the literature , melanin

50:07

is probably the most powerful polymer out

50:09

there . I mean the most , one of the most powerful compounds

50:11

out there . And it makes sense from an evolutionary

50:13

perspective because this is how we evolved as mammals

50:15

. But , like I said , I mean

50:17

anti -venom . In some cases it

50:19

responds to certain venoms . In terms

50:21

of protection , it's a powerful anti-inflammatory

50:24

, powerful anti-antioxidant

50:27

, it's an immune modulator

50:29

. So I've even seen evidence that

50:31

it helps with HIV patients

50:33

especially . And then

50:36

the biggest one in my opinion , the one that I've gone

50:38

deeper on , is the idea that melanin

50:41

is . Melanin's relationship

50:43

with light and water is central

50:45

to human photometabolism , which

50:47

is a foreign concept , especially to centralized

50:49

medicine . But it's this idea that whenever

50:52

photons strike your skin through

50:55

midday sun exposure and you have

50:57

adequate melanin , then your

51:00

body uses the photoelectric effect to then

51:02

cleave off or produce

51:05

electrons , which

51:07

we know has a very powerful

51:09

effect on health . So those

51:12

are just a few of the things that come to mind , but

51:14

really everybody should

51:16

be orienting their lifestyle

51:18

around building more melanin , because it

51:21

is such a powerful compound .

51:24

Amazing and there was work of

51:26

, I believe , dr Herrera , who

51:29

has shown that , who has done

51:31

pioneering work on the evidence

51:33

for the ability of melanin to essentially

51:35

allow us to derive energy

51:37

from the sun . And

51:39

listeners to my podcast will know that we've

51:42

talked about the electron transport chain , we've talked about mitochondrial

51:45

function and how electrons

51:48

are the input into that electron

51:50

transport chain . So it's fascinating

51:53

to think that we've evolved , or nature

51:55

has evolved , this compound that allows

51:57

us to essentially harness solar

51:59

radiation to

52:01

improve or to improve the function

52:04

or to essentially derive energy . I

52:06

believe that he initially

52:08

noticed that when he was looking at

52:10

the retinas of

52:12

a range of people with

52:15

retinal diseases

52:17

, with age-related macular

52:19

degeneration and those

52:21

basically , where there was melanin

52:23

, there were less blood vessels , indicating

52:26

that there was essentially an ability

52:28

for the tissue to operate

52:31

through or

52:33

just by harnessing that light

52:35

energy through melanin . So , yeah

52:37

, melanin has got so many compounds

52:40

and , look , we haven't even talked about the

52:42

kind of this idea of melanin as a

52:44

biological semiconductor , and this is getting

52:46

into quite a deep realm

52:49

of quantum biology . But if

52:51

we're really again thinking about the body as

52:53

an electric being that's

52:55

running off electrons and protons

52:58

, then it's also got this function

53:01

as a biological semiconductor , so

53:03

I don't know if you want to make any comments about that

53:05

. We're happy to keep it at a more higher level for

53:07

people , if you don't .

53:13

Yeah , I mean in terms of the biological

53:15

semiconductor . That is certainly a deep rabbit hole that

53:17

I need to explore more of , especially

53:20

in relation to quantum biology . But I would

53:22

like to share that . You know , melanin

53:24

is not just one form of melanin . You

53:26

have three forms of melanin . So you have neuromelanin

53:29

in the brain . The

53:31

destruction of neuromelanin through various

53:34

means has been implicated in potentially

53:36

, parkinson's disease , dementia , a whole

53:38

bunch of other neurodegenerative disorders . And

53:41

then you have you melanin , which

53:43

is responsible for the browns and blacks in nature

53:45

. It's more protective

53:47

from UV . But then

53:50

you also have pheomelanin , which is

53:52

responsible for the reds , oranges

53:55

, yellows , the pinks . I

53:57

mean , if you look at flamingos or like a red fox

53:59

, that's an example and this is typically

54:02

what lighter skinned people have . So even

54:04

in relation to melanin , people tan

54:07

differently , and this is also something

54:09

I want to reiterate , because I feel like there's

54:12

this , there's this unconscious

54:14

like expectation that a light skinned

54:16

person is supposed to tan exactly the same

54:18

way as a dark skinned person . But that's not

54:20

true . So I think if we can orient

54:22

ourselves around these different types of melanin and then

54:25

peg ourselves individually around

54:27

what type we have more of , then

54:30

we can use light in a responsible

54:32

way to maximize that type of melanin .

54:35

Yeah , great , great points . And

54:37

what about ? What about some takeaways

54:39

for people ? So they've listened

54:41

to us talk about the health

54:44

benefits of sunlight , of of

54:46

in terms of their weight , in terms of maybe

54:48

their cardiovascular disease risk

54:51

as well . So how , how do

54:53

you approach advising people to get suns

54:55

safely , so that they're

54:57

not inadvertently doing

55:00

damage ?

55:02

Yeah , so , like we mentioned earlier

55:04

, a huge focus on early AM sunlight . So

55:07

this can be anywhere between sunrise

55:09

and about , I'd say , nine or 10 AM

55:11

, depending on where you are . That

55:13

is what's going to help with a skin protein known as filigree

55:16

that has a protective effect on the skin . There

55:18

are some other factors that that have

55:20

to do with that as well , but you're essentially just priming

55:22

your skin for higher UVA

55:24

and UVB conditions , and

55:26

in just that alone I've seen people

55:28

experience some great results in terms of

55:30

not burning , building melanin during

55:33

midday , so forth . Outside

55:35

of this , I think , the

55:38

sunglasses discussion , the sunglasses

55:40

, sunscreen , contact lenses . There's nuance here

55:42

, but in general , ditch your

55:44

sunglasses . Your eyes are

55:46

a muscle , so you just have to get acclimated to

55:48

natural light Contacts

55:51

. I usually recommend that people transition

55:54

to reading glasses so that it's easier to actually

55:56

transition into sunlight . And then

55:58

there are other things as well . You're not causing a

56:01

hypoxia of the cornea , you're not influencing

56:03

the light spectrum in a negative way . And

56:06

sunscreen , of course , knowing what we know about

56:08

neuroactoderm the fact

56:10

that the skin of your brain

56:12

, eyes and tissue are essentially the same then

56:16

just removing all sunscreen and replacing that

56:18

with early AM sunlight is a key part

56:20

. And then , of course , protecting yourself from artificial

56:22

light as much as possible , especially after sunset

56:24

, because you want melatonin

56:26

and the circadian

56:29

mechanism to function properly .

56:31

Yeah , that's a key one , and people

56:33

will really do damage if

56:35

they're getting off a plane jet lagged and their

56:37

circadian rhythm is up the creek and

56:40

then they get out

56:42

from Sydney Airport , they go to Bondi Beach and

56:44

they pretty quickly look like a prawn , and

56:47

so don't be one of those people

56:49

. The

56:51

other point I wanted to make is about dietary , and

56:53

we actually have some good evidence , even some

56:56

randomized evidence , that increasing

56:59

omega three in the diet

57:01

basically reduces photosensitivity

57:03

, and there was a couple of papers in

57:05

people who had some quite obscure

57:08

genetic photosensitivity

57:10

conditions and simply putting them on

57:12

a higher omega three diet and

57:14

this in this one was supplementation reduce

57:17

their burning

57:19

and their photosensitivity . What I

57:21

think we compare that with , if we're putting

57:23

together the pieces of this puzzle , is that people

57:26

burn less when they get

57:28

rid of refined seed oils . So

57:30

when they cut down on omega six fatty

57:33

acids the refined ones from canola

57:36

oil , vegetable oil , corn , soy , grape

57:38

, seed , cottonseed oil they

57:40

stop burning or they burn a lot less . So

57:42

I think together that speaks

57:45

to this fundamental aspect

57:47

of the fatty acid composition of our

57:49

body and our skin in terms of

57:51

influencing

57:53

our burning ability . And we already know that drugs

57:56

can influence photosensitivity . As I mentioned

57:59

, doxycycline , acetretin no one . We

58:01

advise you to avoid the sun when you're on those drugs

58:03

because they influence photosensitivity

58:06

. So any comments about

58:08

your dietary approach ?

58:12

Yeah , I mean definitely more animal-based , ancestrally

58:15

aligned nutrition approach . I

58:17

think , of course , the vegetable

58:19

oil topic has been it's been hammered

58:22

on so much over , especially Twitter , and

58:24

it's starting to get into mainstream as well , which is

58:26

nice . But , in general , just making sure

58:28

that you focus on grass-fed

58:30

, grass-finished animal fats that are low in deuterium

58:32

. Wild

58:35

caught seafood I'm absolutely a big advocate

58:37

of so any shellfish as well oyster

58:40

, shrimp , scallops , wild

58:43

caught sardines , mackerel , that's

58:45

. You know , at the end of the day , the food that you eat

58:48

and the fatty acid composition is what makes

58:50

up the quality of your skin . So

58:53

I think that's a very important point . But it's

58:55

also important to emphasize that you don't need to

58:57

cut out vegetable oils completely . The

59:00

human body is really resilient and

59:02

I've seen clients experience

59:04

great results even when they're not so

59:07

like regimented about avoiding vegetable

59:09

oil . I think the most important thing is to just

59:11

get those natural Omega-3

59:14

and other foods into your diet .

59:17

Yeah , interesting observation . I

59:19

think everyone will benefit from getting lower

59:22

down in those seed

59:24

oils , but interesting that you've found that people

59:26

can still get benefit even if they don't

59:29

. So that's a fascinating and really

59:31

useful takeaway for the listener . Any

59:33

final thoughts or anything that

59:35

you'd like to mention before we wrap

59:37

up ?

59:39

Yeah , I would just like to say , you know

59:42

, at the end of the day , the sun is to be respected . It's

59:44

a double-edged sword , but I think

59:46

we need to err on more of the side that

59:49

the sun is the very thing responsible

59:51

for all life on Earth . We've evolved

59:53

with it ever since , you know

59:55

, mammals came out of , came into existence

59:57

, and I would really like

59:59

to see more people just have that curiosity

1:00:01

to be able to look into this work that we're sharing

1:00:03

here , because there are a lot of bad ideas

1:00:05

that are being shared by centralized medicine , and it's

1:00:07

unfortunate because , of

1:00:10

course , there's corrupt influence . You have the Rockefeller-inspired

1:00:12

centralized medical system . There's

1:00:15

a lot to it , but at the end of the day , we need to respect the

1:00:17

sun and make sure that we approach light environment properly

1:00:19

.

1:00:20

Great advice and I really

1:00:23

would echo that . This is a Hormetic

1:00:25

Stressor . Uv light is a Hormetic

1:00:27

Stressor , which means that

1:00:29

you need to use it wisely , you need to allow

1:00:31

yourself to recover appropriately and

1:00:34

, as we talked about , you have to prepare before

1:00:36

you do any kind of deliberate UV

1:00:38

light exposure . So I think

1:00:41

that those caveats need to be well well

1:00:43

received and not not . I

1:00:45

don't think so . People don't take out what

1:00:48

we're saying out of context and , yes

1:00:50

, the end of the day , we want to . We're doing this to help people

1:00:52

optimize their health , live longer

1:00:54

and prevent disease , which I think we've

1:00:56

. We've basically showed that the

1:00:59

sunlight is incredibly integral to to

1:01:01

that . So , zaid , thanks for your time

1:01:03

. Where can people find you ? And maybe

1:01:05

let us know what you're , what you're offering

1:01:07

and and how people can engage with you ?

1:01:11

Yes , you can find me at Zaid K

1:01:13

Dahaj on Twitter . On Instagram

1:01:15

as well same handle . I'm sure you'll have it in the description

1:01:17

. In terms of what I'm

1:01:19

I'm focused on , I've I'm transitioning

1:01:22

away actually from online coaching and I'm

1:01:24

going to work with people in person within the Southern

1:01:26

California area , so that's going to be very

1:01:28

exciting . And , of course , I'm going

1:01:30

to put light environment at the very top of this work

1:01:32

and I really think that

1:01:34

my my mission now is to really educate everyday

1:01:37

people on on just light and how important

1:01:39

it is and all the nuance associated with it . So

1:01:41

that's going to be my main focus .

1:01:44

Yeah , fantastic , we'll include that information

1:01:46

so people can can get in touch with you . And

1:01:48

yeah , follow Zaid on Twitter . He's got

1:01:51

some amazing educational content which

1:01:53

is very , very thoroughly interesting and

1:01:55

and well researched . So thanks very much , mate

1:01:57

, for coming on and great to talk . Thanks

1:02:09

, max , it's been a fun time .

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