0:00

Today I am speaking with Zaid Dahaj

0:02

. He is a men's health coach who

0:04

has had extensive self-education into

0:06

the underlying drivers of chronic diseases and

0:09

has similarly arrived at circadian

0:11

biology as a fundamental pillar

0:13

of optimal health . In

0:15

this podcast , we discuss the non-visual

0:18

photoreceptor system , particularly

0:20

melanopsin . We also talk about

0:22

why sunlight helps you lose weight . Pro-opioam

0:25

, lanocortin or pom-C , by building

0:27

melanin is an important health strategy

0:29

, and much more . I hope you

0:31

enjoy this conversation with Zaid

0:33

. Okay

0:44

, zaid Dahaj , thanks for coming onto

0:46

the Regenerative Health podcast .

0:49

Thank you for having me , Max . I'm very excited .

0:51

So you have been posting some very

0:53

, very interesting threads on Twitter

0:55

recently that are approaching

0:58

a bunch of topics , particularly

1:00

around circadian biology sunlight

1:02

, with a very interesting

1:05

bent . I think

1:07

what you've been posting about is very similar

1:09

to what I have been talking . That

1:13

is , this idea that we

1:15

are fundamentally beings

1:17

of light . So

1:19

there's deeply encoded physiological

1:23

adaptions and pathways

1:26

in our body that speak to our

1:28

physiology's use

1:30

of light in health . So

1:32

I'm really excited to do

1:35

a deep dive with you on around these topics

1:37

, but maybe we could just start by

1:39

giving the listener a bit of background

1:41

about yourself .

1:45

Yeah , so I come from a more unconventional

1:47

background . Let's say I

1:50

don't have any conventional certifications or

1:52

degrees to my name . I've been

1:54

purely driven by obsession ever since around

1:56

2015 , when my father

1:58

passed of heart disease . So

2:01

, considering that heart disease is the

2:03

leading global killer , that's something

2:05

that really pushed me into an area

2:07

of health , an area of obsession , to

2:09

really figure this stuff out at the fundamental

2:11

level , and I've been very grateful

2:14

because it's allowed me to follow this path of

2:16

helping people through my coaching , whether

2:20

it's online , whether it's in person , and

2:22

really I guess I just have the

2:25

bug bit me , so to speak . I just have the obsession

2:28

to go as deep as possible , and really I do

2:30

think it's a lifelong journey for me

2:32

, as I'm sure it is for you as well .

2:35

Yeah , and that curiosity is something that I

2:37

respect immensely . And I think

2:39

, in this modern day where

2:41

we have got so many competing

2:43

narratives and there's so many interpretations

2:46

of the scientific literature by different

2:48

people , by different organizations that might

2:50

all have different interests , I

2:53

respect anyone who really applies

2:55

their knowledge and their

2:57

intellectual horsepower to

2:59

really try and work out what's going on , and

3:02

that's what I think you've done and you

3:04

continue to do . So it's great to see . So

3:07

let's dive in and talk about this

3:09

idea of a non-visual

3:12

photoreceptor system . It's

3:14

a bit of a mouthful , it sounds quite

3:17

a obscure or esoteric

3:19

concept , but why don't you

3:21

give us an overview of how you think about

3:23

this system ?

3:26

Sure . So I like to think about it in a very simplistic

3:28

manner . These are so non-visual

3:31

photoreceptors are just

3:33

light sensitive proteins that absorb

3:36

specific wavelengths of light . So a

3:38

few I think three of the most important ones that

3:40

come to mind are melanopsin , which is inherently

3:43

a blue light detector . You

3:45

have neuropsin , which is inherently a UVA

3:47

light detector , and then you have

3:49

rhodopsin , which I

3:51

believe detects green and is more oriented

3:54

around low light environments . So

3:56

just the very fact that we

3:58

have these options within our

4:00

system that are designed to take in natural

4:03

light from the sun , I think

4:05

that has huge implications for not

4:07

only centralized but decentralized medicine and

4:09

really how we approach chronic disease , because

4:12

in my opinion , the eye is the gateway to

4:15

not only the brain but the entire

4:17

system as a whole , and once we

4:19

can figure out how to orient our light

4:21

environment in a way that is fundamentally

4:24

aligned with that non-visual photoreceptor

4:27

system , then I think we can see some very

4:29

excellent results in terms of metabolic health

4:31

and just remission of chronic disease as well

4:33

.

4:34

Yeah , and the way

4:36

I also like to frame it for people is everyone

4:39

can understand this idea of

4:42

proteins that help us form images

4:44

, and everyone knows that , because

4:46

that's obviously what the eye is for . It can show

4:48

us that you've got a tiger about

4:50

to rip your head off , you've got

4:52

, you can see the tree , you can see your child

4:55

. But people , I don't think

4:57

, realize that these

4:59

photoreceptors are also present and

5:01

to simply detect the specific

5:04

wavelengths of light , as

5:06

you've talked about , and

5:09

the Melanopsin one . I think that's a

5:11

good place to start , because people

5:13

, it was the first one that was discovered and

5:16

what I like to remind people

5:18

is that the way it was discovered , or

5:20

one of the kind of interesting scientific

5:23

prompts for its discovery , was that

5:25

people , who certain

5:28

blind people , were still able to

5:30

sleep at the right times . So

5:32

it basically raised this question

5:35

about so what was able , what

5:37

was allowing them to respond to circadian

5:39

cues so that they go to sleep at

5:41

the right time if they couldn't see anything , so

5:45

that I guess maybe we could go into that and talk

5:47

about the history of the Melanopsin and then maybe

5:50

why it's so important . Yeah

5:52

.

5:54

Well , as I mentioned , just the very fact that you shared

5:56

right there is astonishing the idea that blind

5:58

people can can entrain

6:00

their circadian systems in a proper way even though they

6:02

can't see visually . Melanopsin

6:05

is , you know . It's found all throughout

6:08

the body , but a few of the places , of course the

6:10

eye , the subcutaneous fat , which

6:12

which Uncle Jack has shown recently

6:14

through his research , I

6:17

believe some other places as well , the skin . So

6:20

you find this blood vessels

6:22

, which is has huge implications for cardiovascular

6:25

disease in all sorts of other conditions

6:27

. But the

6:29

mirror nature of Melanopsin

6:32

sensing blue light from the sun

6:34

, is a very key point , because I always

6:36

like to make this distinction between artificial

6:38

blue light , that's inherently toxic , and

6:40

natural blue light from the sun . That's

6:43

, I think , a big area of confusion for people . But

6:47

you know , once you understand that it is a blue light detector

6:49

, then you can . You can create a lifestyle

6:51

around protecting yourself from artificial light and

6:54

then making sure that you maximize

6:56

natural blue light within the day as well .

6:59

Yeah , and and that distinction I don't

7:02

think many people are making and not

7:04

they're not realizing that what we're getting

7:06

from LED downlights

7:08

, from screens , is fundamentally

7:10

different to the blue

7:13

light that's present naturally

7:15

. So maybe talk about how

7:17

you think about that distinction .

7:19

Yeah

7:22

, Well , I mean that distinction

7:24

. I think , like

7:26

I said , it's one of the most misunderstood ones . But

7:28

it really

7:30

does come down to the fact that we just have to get more natural

7:32

light from the sun . And what a lot of people don't

7:34

think about is that the sun is a perfectly

7:37

balanced package

7:39

of light wavelengths , so every single

7:41

light wavelength is meant to balance the others

7:43

. And that's what I find

7:45

kind of disingenuous , when people refer to studies

7:47

that show that UVA or UVB causes

7:50

skin cancer in nocturnal

7:53

animals , things of that nature . But

7:56

really it's just about maximizing sunlight and

7:58

protecting yourself from artificial light , and that's something

8:00

that I go great length , go

8:02

to a great length for , especially

8:05

when it comes to things like building melanin . I mean , there's

8:07

a lot to the conversation , but that's

8:10

that's really how I think about it . And

8:12

UVA , because the way I translate

8:14

that to clients is in a simple manner

8:16

, like all the scientific jargon and

8:18

you know the intricacies , that

8:21

stuff doesn't really appeal to the masses , in my opinion

8:23

, and it doesn't work because most

8:25

people just throw it out .

8:27

If you give them the practical action steps , I think that's

8:29

more helpful and from my perspective

8:31

at least , yeah , one

8:33

way I like I've described it in the past is

8:35

you know , imagine the blue light that you're getting

8:38

from your LED as the , the meth

8:40

, the methamphetamine of light . And

8:42

I say that because it's essentially distilled

8:45

and refined and highly highly processed

8:47

, and whereas the blue light

8:49

you're getting from the sun is balanced by

8:51

UV during the day , at

8:53

certain times it's balanced by red

8:55

and infrared . When you , when you're simply

8:58

under those blue lights , you're

9:00

only getting , you know , a

9:02

pure kind of meth hit of blue

9:05

, and it's it's highly stimulatory and and

9:07

highly , highly destructive

9:09

to to these Melanopsin receptors

9:12

.

9:15

Yeah , yeah , highly , highly destructive . And

9:17

also on a fundamental , like cellular

9:20

level , the way it interacts with the mitochondria

9:22

, the way it destroys the , the

9:24

ATPase , biological nanomotors

9:26

, I mean . This is , these are not

9:28

small matters , and I

9:30

think it's on

9:32

the education part , in terms of what we have

9:34

to do is just explain this in a simple manner

9:37

for people who are not aware , because when

9:39

when the average person hears that you know , artificial

9:41

light is toxic , it's abstract

9:44

, they don't really understand what they , what that means

9:46

, because they don't have a fundamental grasp

9:48

of physiology or biology

9:51

, especially when it comes to mitochondrial

9:53

function as well .

9:54

Yeah , and maybe let's talk about these specific

9:56

functions of melanopsin , and maybe I'll start

9:58

with one that people can really relate

10:01

to , and that is the pupillary light reflex

10:03

. So if you , you know you hit your head , unfortunately

10:05

, or you've , and you go into the emergency

10:07

department and the

10:09

, the doctor , the eye doctor , is shining a light in

10:12

your eye , the it's actually melanopsin

10:14

that are present in those specific retinal

10:16

ganglion cells . That is

10:19

transferring , is being received

10:21

the message and then is transferring

10:23

that message to to

10:25

the rest of your , your brain , to

10:28

enable that reflex . So

10:30

so what else is melanopsin doing , maybe

10:33

in the eye and then in the other sites that we talked

10:35

about ?

10:37

Well , I I believe that melanopsin has

10:39

a really key function . I mean , of course

10:41

, you can't separate all of the options within

10:43

the eye , they're all one system , so they , they

10:46

play a multi

10:48

, you know they , they run

10:50

along the same lines typically , but it

10:52

definitely has a stimulatory effect with blue

10:54

light , as you mentioned . So that's

10:56

why getting up and exposing yourself to early

10:58

AM sunlight is so important , along

11:01

with the other light wavelengths , so

11:03

it allows you to kickstart your , your circadian

11:05

biological system and just get ready for the day

11:08

so that other hormones , other

11:10

neurotransmitters , they're

11:12

able to function properly and you

11:14

get benefit out of that In

11:16

terms of the the blood vessels . I

11:19

think you know this is something I haven't I've dived

11:21

too deep on , but I would assume

11:23

that blue light has a

11:25

. It does penetrate the skin to some degree

11:27

and the impact that that has on the blood vessels

11:29

is just a positive one in terms

11:31

of making sure that blood flow runs

11:34

more efficiently . I've

11:36

done more research on cardiovascular

11:38

function and easy water and how

11:40

easy water might potentially coat and

11:42

protect the blood vessels . So

11:44

those are just a few things that come to mind .

11:47

Yeah , no , that's good . And yeah

11:49

, I read that recent paper , or was it in 2017

11:52

, when they discovered that the melanopsin was in

11:54

the the in these blood

11:56

vessels , and it was . It's mediating

11:58

what's known as photo relaxation . So what

12:01

that sounds like to me is that when we're outside

12:03

, when we're getting a natural sunlight

12:06

in the form of blue light , then it's

12:08

allowing those blood vessels to dilate . It's allowing

12:10

, you know , optimal blood flow

12:13

to occur . And you

12:15

could just imagine that when you're under

12:17

an artificial light and I'm not

12:19

sure exactly , maybe you know , say , if

12:22

you're constantly stim , stimulating those

12:24

melanopsin receptors or you're destroying

12:26

them with artificial blue light , then what is that

12:28

doing to to the body's

12:30

ability to to vaso

12:33

vaso dilate ? I'm not sure

12:35

that's that's kind of open for

12:37

for debate .

12:40

Yeah , it's an interesting question . So I

12:42

think you know blue light , natural

12:44

blue light from the sun , in combination with UV light . We

12:46

know that that that combination stimulates

12:48

nitric oxide within the skin . That

12:51

leads to the blood vessels . So

12:53

my hunch is that toxic

12:55

artificial light not only , not

12:58

only causes a vasoconstriction

13:00

of the blood vessels , so it it

13:03

doesn't allow for efficient blood flow . I

13:06

think it also destroys the function

13:08

of easy water , structured water , so to speak

13:10

, within those blood vessels . And so

13:13

you know , once you , once you destroy that

13:15

and then you get into glycolcalix dysfunction

13:17

, endothelium dysfunction , that's

13:20

. I think that's just a recipe for disaster

13:22

. And considering that most people are under blue

13:25

, artificial blue light 24 seven , now

13:27

we can start to see one of the big reasons why cardiovascular

13:30

disease is the leading global killer .

13:33

Yeah , no , that that's a great point . And

13:35

the there's so many ways

13:37

that sunlight is regulating end of vascular

13:40

health and endothelial health . And you've mentioned

13:42

the promotion of that exclusion zone

13:44

water . That is something that most doctors

13:48

, most cardiologists have no concept of and

13:50

I think one of the and I

13:53

tweeted about this recently , so the , the , the

13:55

idea for it to really summarize it

13:57

for the listener is that along

13:59

hydrophilic surfaces and along biological

14:02

surfaces we formed this exclusion zone

14:04

water , which is a change

14:06

in the physical property of water that essentially

14:09

excludes all , all solutes

14:11

, and and work by Stephen Hussie he did an

14:13

excellent presentation about this showed

14:16

that basically anything bigger than a potassium

14:18

ion is not able to penetrate exclusion

14:21

zone water . So the idea that

14:23

you know lipoproteins like LDL

14:25

can somehow magically teleport

14:28

from the lumen of the vessel

14:30

into the , into

14:33

the sub endothelial space in a healthy person

14:35

, it just doesn't make sense at

14:37

all to me .

14:39

Yeah , I mean , and and to think

14:41

about , like to think about cardiovascular disease

14:43

from that perspective is really

14:45

game changer , because it

14:47

really throws out a lot of the centralized

14:49

ideas in regards to what causes

14:52

cardiovascular disease . Of course they have some things

14:54

right , but I do really

14:56

think it's . It's enlightened me to

14:58

view cardiovascular disease from that perspective

15:00

, because my father passed from it , so I've

15:03

always been on the hunt for , you know

15:05

, that , that fundamental function , that once

15:08

it goes AWOL , once it becomes dysfunctional

15:10

, then that leads to a whole cascade which which

15:12

leads to , like heart attacks and strokes and

15:14

all those sort of sort of things .

15:17

Yeah , I'll make a couple more points just

15:19

on on the Melanofcin before we move on

15:21

. And I guess the

15:23

way I want people to think about it and I

15:25

mentioned this in my optimal skating health course is

15:28

that these , these

15:30

proteins , these light sensitive proteins

15:32

, are there for circadian

15:34

entrainment , meaning they're there to help

15:36

inform your body about

15:39

time of day . And just like we've

15:41

got that , that central clock in

15:43

the hypothalamus , you've got all

15:45

these other clocks that exist in

15:47

in all your other organs . You've got 70%

15:49

of your genome is is regulated by

15:52

circadian timing

15:54

mechanisms . So I really feel

15:56

like the one way of thinking about

15:58

this is the body has evolved this

16:00

spectacular way of gathering

16:02

light information so

16:04

it can time this exquisitely

16:07

complicated mechanism and

16:09

organism within the most fidelity

16:12

as possible . And when

16:14

you confuse those signals by

16:17

essentially spamming the melanopsin

16:19

In your skin and your eyes , you

16:21

know 18 hours a day with isolated

16:23

blue light and you know that that is

16:25

a problem on a very , very fundamental cellular

16:28

, subcellular love .

16:30

Yeah , yeah , purely because it just dysregulates

16:33

circadian biology . I mean , once you

16:35

go against that , that

16:38

evolutionary fundamental , then you

16:40

know everything is on the table in terms of chronic disease

16:42

and dysfunction . So I

16:44

think that's a very important point to mention

16:46

. And then Also one thing that

16:48

I do want to mention with all of the options

16:50

in general is that they're tied directly

16:53

to the vitamin a cycle . So they're tied

16:55

to 11 cis retinol and you

16:59

know , once you , once you destroy the vitamin

17:01

a cycle through artificial light , which is very

17:03

common through throughout society , I mean

17:05

, you can lead to some some serious downstream

17:08

effects there .

17:10

Yeah , and look that that is kind of the

17:12

one reason why Dr

17:15

Jack cruise is talking about the harm of

17:17

blue light . Is this idea that we're

17:19

destroying melanopsin , it's basically

17:21

liberating vitamin

17:24

a From this retinol , from

17:26

its binding to

17:28

, to to these vote non-visual photoreceptors

17:30

, and that that is having down a downstream

17:32

cascade and and

17:35

generating Meta

17:37

mitochondrial dysfunction so that

17:39

that kind of gets a big technical but that's

17:41

. That is a it's very

17:43

interesting and groundbreaking concept

17:45

that you know , no one I believe no

17:47

one else is really addressing .

17:52

Yeah , I actually have a question for you . Do

17:54

you know of course , a lot of

17:56

parts within the body are able to regenerate

17:58

Do you know if non-visual photoreceptors , specifically

18:00

, are able to regenerate if you , if you take a circadian

18:03

friendly approach ?

18:04

Well , I think that's that's the key point about

18:06

why this whole

18:09

whole system is is derailing

18:11

so badly is because it's a longer wavelength

18:13

, like the infrared and the red

18:15

, that regenerates the

18:18

, the Melanopsin and other non-visual

18:20

photoreceptors . So if we

18:22

take a holistic view and we imagine

18:24

that with on the savannah or you know , in

18:27

our ancestral past , we would have had

18:29

that early morning red and infrared , as

18:31

you know , we would have hit all the different

18:33

wavelengths of UV and then that would have faded

18:36

. So you know , we've stimulated melanopsin

18:38

during the middle of the day and obviously

18:40

when , when red , when blue

18:43

light is its brightest , but then later in

18:45

the day . That whole process is

18:47

that is , enabling the

18:50

, these non-visual photoreceptors , to to repair

18:52

and regenerate . And then

18:54

I think that the clincher is is the

18:57

light at night , because if

18:59

we're not getting any Darkness

19:01

, any true darkness , because of light pollution , and

19:04

we're continuing to stimulate them , then

19:06

I think that's a kind of another whammy

19:08

in terms of preventing them from

19:10

regenerating them and damaging them .

19:13

Yeah , and I assume melatonin

19:15

definitely has a big part to play in terms of its antioxidant

19:18

capabilities with that regeneration

19:20

correct .

19:21

Yeah , yeah , I believe so and so

19:24

. So that's that's . That's talking about Melanopsin

19:27

, really , and that's good . And in terms of

19:29

the actionable advice , I you

19:31

know , in my course I say you basically have to cover up

19:33

and I post a photo of a I

19:36

don't for the last Star Wars fans out there . It's

19:38

a photo of the sand people in

19:41

in the in the first Star Wars

19:43

movie and they basically covered up completely

19:45

and essentially that's what we want to be doing

19:47

, because Not only

19:49

is that Melanopsin in

19:52

our skin , in our Blood vessels

19:54

, as we talked about , in our eyes , but it's also in

19:56

the fat tissue and and that was that other

19:58

Paper when they discovered that there

20:00

was Melanopsin in the adipocyte , in those subcutaneous

20:03

white Fat tissue . That

20:05

is another reason how metabolic health

20:07

can be implicated if we're constantly under

20:09

, could be deranged if we're constantly

20:11

under artificial blue light .

20:14

Yeah , and I'd also like to cover

20:16

the opposite end of the spectrum as well with natural

20:18

blue light . So a while back I wrote

20:20

a thread . I found some research showing

20:23

that , I believe natural , natural

20:25

blue light actually makes your

20:27

adipocytes , your fat cells , smaller in

20:30

size and it actually increases the

20:32

rate of Fat burning within

20:34

those adipocytes . So that's

20:36

another reason why I've come across a lot of people

20:39

who have reported that you know , after sunbathing

20:41

, consistently , not only do they look

20:43

leaner , but from a physiological standpoint

20:45

, they actually are leaner . So it's interesting

20:47

to see this dichotomy between toxic , artificial

20:50

blue light and natural blue light from the sun .

20:52

Yeah , look , I love you that you brought that up because

20:54

it gets to this idea about personal

20:56

fat threshold and Within kind

20:58

of metabolic medicine within low carb medicine

21:00

. It's this this idea is

21:02

that when we reach this arbitrary Personal

21:05

fat threshold , then we

21:07

start depositing fat ectopically

21:09

, yeah , you know , within the abdominal

21:12

cavity , in in visceral white adipose

21:14

, but then also within organs

21:16

like within the liver , within within the

21:19

muscle . So so what

21:22

? I think the limitation of this approach

21:24

is that it doesn't give

21:26

us enough clarity about the

21:28

factors that are influencing this personal fat threshold

21:30

. And you know , researchers like Tucker

21:32

Goodrich have done a great job at showing

21:34

that some of the the linoleic acid

21:37

breakdown products can Can

21:39

influence that personal fat threshold . And

21:41

, and obviously I've talked to Blazor Boris recently

21:44

and he Really makes a strong case

21:46

that it's actually the deuterium in

21:48

the sea dolls that are really causing

21:50

basically a butch known as a Macro

21:53

molecular crowding in the cell and you

21:55

basically get an energy excess and

21:57

the mitochondria start failing . But the the

21:59

reason why what you've talked about is important is because

22:02

it speaks to this idea that light

22:04

is influencing our fat , our personal

22:06

fat threshold , and Light

22:08

is influencing the adipocyte pathophysiology

22:11

. So not only you

22:14

know these inherent , inherent

22:16

personal genetic factors , not only

22:18

dietary factors , but our light environment

22:21

is going to dictate whether those cells are

22:23

simply Developing

22:27

larger size or or

22:29

, and then potentially spilling

22:31

over or in inflammatory compounds , or

22:34

if they're able to Replicate

22:36

or maintain a more healthy size . So

22:38

yeah , I'm really glad you

22:41

brought that up . Have you noticed that you've

22:43

empirically noticed that when you put your clients in

22:45

the sun , that their weight loss improves ?

22:50

Oh , substantially . It's not something

22:52

that I was particularly looking for as well , until

22:54

after I started getting reports from some of my clients

22:56

Not even people who were clients , just people

22:58

who followed some of my advice on sunbathing

23:01

and doing that properly . But

23:03

that led me down that rabbit hole and I'm very grateful for

23:05

it , because to me that was

23:08

an astonishing fact . Just the idea that you could get leaner

23:10

and

23:13

reduce body fat to a certain degree just

23:15

with sunbathing and light that's

23:18

just astonishing from my perspective , which

23:20

is why I also put light above

23:23

nutrition , because I think there are other factors

23:25

involved . I still think nutrition is important

23:27

, but that goes to show that , in my

23:29

opinion , I think light is just the most fundamental aspect

23:31

of this game .

23:33

Yeah , let's riff on this for a moment , because

23:35

what we're discussing is why

23:38

Dr Jack Cruz has

23:42

put sun before food , why you've just mentioned

23:44

the same . I

23:46

will mention a quick mouth study

23:49

that basically shows the opposite of what you

23:51

talked about . That was a

23:53

study where they had a six-month period

23:55

of two groups of mice One

24:00

were fed the same diet but one was on a

24:02

shift work schedule , so chronic

24:04

circadian disruption With the exact

24:06

same diet . The circadian disrupted

24:08

mice had hypertrophy

24:11

of their dipocytes , so again

24:16

, not an ideal responses . They

24:18

had fibrosis , they

24:21

had raised inflammatory markers

24:23

in that fat tissue and they were insulin resistant

24:25

. That shows I know

24:27

it's a mouth study , but it gives us a really good

24:29

proof of concept of this idea that

24:31

it's not just the food that you're eating , it's

24:33

the actual light environment that you're eating that food

24:36

in that can potentially influence

24:39

your metabolic health . The

24:41

other thing that I want maybe you can talk about is and

24:44

I think this is central to this idea of weight

24:46

regulation and sunlight is the POMC

24:48

system .

24:52

This one . I think the two most fascinating

24:55

systems in my opinion are non-visual photoreceptor

24:57

system and POMC . In general , every

25:01

mammal has something called the POMC gene and

25:04

that leads to a protein called

25:06

POMC as well Proopiomelanocortin

25:08

. Essentially , this protein is

25:10

fundamentally stimulated by natural

25:12

light and it's also , in my opinion , stimulated

25:14

by artificial light . So , just like general , when

25:17

you stimulate this let's say you stimulate it through

25:20

sunlight , the ideal way , circadian-friendly

25:22

way then this protein

25:24

has about maybe seven

25:26

or eight biological

25:30

peptides that are cleaved to this protein . You

25:32

have things like alpha , beta , gamma , msh

25:35

, melanocyte-stimulating hormone . You

25:37

have ACTH these are just abbreviations

25:40

. You have CLIP . What

25:43

are the beta ? Endorphin is a huge one , an opioid

25:45

peptide . Just

25:47

from this mere fact that light stimulates

25:49

all of these peptides that are some of the most powerful

25:51

ones in nature . I think

25:53

that has huge implications for not

25:56

only the clinicians out there , but for

25:58

even decentralized health coaches or

26:01

people who are in this work .

26:03

Yeah , and

26:05

the centrality of POMC

26:08

to the organism's physiology

26:10

. I don't think it can be understated because

26:12

, as you mentioned , acth

26:15

is produced

26:17

in the pituitary gland and then goes

26:20

down and signals the adrenal cortex to make

26:22

cortisol One

26:24

of the most fundamental and hypothermic

26:28

pituitary adrenal axis . That's one

26:30

of the most fundamental pathways in the body is

26:32

it's a cleavage product of POMC . Obviously

26:36

, we know that having a persistently high

26:38

cortisol will push your blood sugar up

26:40

and that is the effect of cortisol

26:43

. It's a glucose corticoid . Glucose

26:45

means glucose . Why people

26:48

get a spike of your blood glucose

26:50

in the morning is because you've got a natural cortisol

26:53

rise . So cortisol is liberating

26:55

, it's promoting gluconeogenesis

26:57

, it's liberating energy . So

27:00

if you're stimulating POMC in the wrong way

27:02

, then of course you're going to be dysregulating

27:05

glucose metabolism . So

27:07

I think that's a really

27:09

important point .

27:12

Yeah , and not only through ACTH

27:14

as well . So you're raising cortisol through that mechanism

27:16

. You're also raising insulin through

27:19

CLIP as well , because CLIP is an insulin secretagogue

27:22

, if I have that correct . So it

27:24

stimulates insulin production from

27:26

the pancreas , and

27:29

once you have that two-way punch , so to speak , from

27:31

artificial light , then I

27:33

think that can set up problems

27:35

for people who have type 2 diabetes

27:38

and other metabolic dysfunction .

27:40

Yeah , and I really Uncle

27:42

Jack or Jack Cruz , basically said that on

27:44

my podcast about almost six months ago and

27:47

I've really done my best to

27:49

verify this

27:51

with my own reading . I haven't found

27:53

a lot about CLIP other than

27:55

some very , very old papers

27:57

. His

27:59

point is that basically

28:02

the artificial light is hijacking POMC

28:04

. So just as natural

28:06

ultraviolet light is going to give us the

28:08

correct or physiological expression

28:10

of the POMC peptide hormones

28:13

in a way that optimizes our physiology

28:15

when we're constantly under blue light and we're

28:18

having a dysregulated light environment , then

28:20

it's essentially hijacking this gene to

28:22

turn up our blood

28:24

glucose , promote hyperinsulinemia

28:26

all around . But

28:29

if someone has more information on that , I'd

28:32

be very willing to look in . But

28:34

it makes sense to me that

28:36

that is what's happening . The

28:39

other ways of let's also talk about

28:41

how sunlight could potentially

28:45

act as a very , very strong

28:47

signal to reduce eating . Because you've

28:49

mentioned beta endorphin and

28:51

you mentioned alpha MSH and

28:54

I wanted to make the point that the pharmaceutical

28:56

industry knows how critical

28:59

the POMC system is

29:01

to appetite regulation and

29:04

that started when the first that

29:06

leptin hormone was discovered and they

29:09

realized that leptin , which was made in that

29:11

fat cells that we've just talked about before , is

29:14

actually signaling all the way up to

29:16

the hypothalamus and binding

29:19

to receptors on those POMC neurons to

29:21

inform the body about the energy state . So

29:24

they knew about that and they still do , and

29:26

they were designing medications

29:28

and one of them is called bupropion

29:31

naltrexone . It's a combination and

29:34

that particular drug was designed

29:36

to basically stop

29:39

a negative feedback loop by

29:41

blocking the effect of beta endorphin to

29:43

kind of reduce people potentially

29:45

affect the alpha MSH and reduce people's

29:47

eating . So they're aware

29:49

that this is an incredibly powerful

29:51

system to regulate

29:53

appetite . But what they don't tell you is

29:55

that you can stimulate alpha

29:57

MSH to reduce your

29:59

appetite by getting out and getting

30:01

ultraviolet light .

30:04

Yeah , yeah , and I believe , like I

30:06

mean generally , most of those peptides are

30:08

appetite suppressants , so you don't only have like

30:10

one or two working in your favor on that end , you

30:13

have almost all of them working in your favor . And

30:17

I just think that it goes against

30:19

mainstream orthodoxy

30:21

, because this idea that sunlight can

30:24

suppress appetite and influence

30:26

leptin in such a way that it can improve your metabolic

30:29

function and if you are in

30:31

a more negative relationship with food , that

30:34

just goes against everything that mainstream centralized

30:37

medicine has to offer , and I think the difficulty

30:39

is in trying to explain that to mainstream

30:41

practitioners especially . Yeah

30:45

, so I mean , when it comes to Pomsae and all

30:47

of the peptides that are our appetite

30:49

regulators , I think this just goes to show that we

30:52

really have an uphill battle

30:55

, to say the least , in terms of translating this work

30:57

into not only the understanding

30:59

of everyday people but the understanding of centralized

31:01

practitioners , and

31:03

just the fact that centralized medicine is

31:05

embedded in bed , so to speak , with big

31:07

pharma and big food . That

31:09

just makes it more difficult . But I think we're

31:12

doing a good job on within our

31:15

little decentralized realm online and translating

31:17

that into people getting results .

31:20

Yeah , I mean , I think I really want

31:22

to make a really strong

31:24

point for the listener and kind of do a

31:27

checkpoint here and what

31:29

the implication of what we're talking about is that if

31:31

you regulate your circadian biology

31:34

, if you stimulate Pomsae in

31:36

your eye , in your central nervous system

31:38

, in your skin , then

31:40

you will lose and

31:42

your white fat tissue , you will lose weight

31:44

and you will become leptin sensitive and

31:47

you will become metabolically healthy . And

31:50

the idea that insulin

31:52

resistance and what essentially mitochondrial

31:54

dysfunction is at the root of all

31:57

these chronic diseases is that what

32:00

that means is that you're not a

32:02

customer anymore for an

32:04

industry that is built on

32:06

people being sick . And

32:09

I made this point to a previous guest and I

32:12

have seen the degree to which one

32:15

person can be dependent on

32:17

a medical system and it is very sad , but

32:20

you can just take someone with end stage

32:22

type 2 diabetes and

32:25

the amount of resources

32:28

and medical care they require

32:30

. So they have got end

32:32

stage kidney disease so they might be on dialysis because

32:34

they've got such severe diabetic

32:37

nephropathy . They have got

32:39

diabetic nephropathy , they're

32:41

potentially blind or vision impaired so

32:44

they're not able to drive themselves anymore . They

32:47

might have severe

32:49

peripheral vascular disease

32:51

, they might have diabetic ulcers , so

32:53

they might be having vascular

32:56

bypass surgery to maintain use

32:58

and function of their legs . And

33:02

then they have these macro vascular complications , so

33:04

they might have had a stroke , they might have

33:08

had previous AMIs

33:10

, heart attacks , and

33:12

the list of medications that someone

33:14

with this condition is on is they're

33:17

on a statin , they're on blood pressure medication , they're on

33:19

multiple oral hypoglycemic

33:22

, they're on injected insulin . So all that to

33:24

say , it's a massive resource

33:26

and effort that needs

33:28

to care for someone like that , and what's

33:30

I and I discussing is that

33:32

, if we're regulating acerocating biology

33:35

, a lot of that could

33:37

potentially be avoided .

33:40

I firmly believe it too . I mean , just think

33:42

about how much money especially like specifically

33:44

where I am in the US we spend on healthcare

33:46

. It is an astonishing amount

33:48

. I mean , we're talking about billions of dollars

33:50

, maybe even trillions , I don't know . But

33:53

I think this just

33:55

goes to show that if we can educate

33:57

people the proper way and really get that

33:59

light bulb flicked on

34:01

, then we can take people from a more centralized

34:04

paradigm to a decentralized one , and

34:06

the ultimate goal for all of us is to just be in a healthy

34:08

state of living , just

34:10

to be healthy in general , so that we can enjoy life

34:12

and make the best

34:15

of it . But I think that's a very important

34:17

point just all the medications and

34:19

all the other complications that

34:21

stem from insulin resistance specifically .

34:24

Yeah , and maybe we

34:26

can talk about the kind

34:29

of prevailing narratives around the sun . Because

34:32

if people are accepting what we're

34:34

talking about , which is that there is amazing

34:36

health benefit to be had from sun

34:40

exposure and from regulators to acerocating

34:42

biology , then we really need

34:44

to address the sticking

34:47

points and the resistances

34:49

that people might have to that . And

34:51

the interesting point that

34:53

I'll also make is that that

34:55

same compound , alpha MSH , that regulates

34:59

appetite in your hypothalamus and your brain

35:01

. It is the same compound that is

35:03

influencing skin darkening and

35:06

therefore melanin synthesis

35:08

in your carapnocytes in your skin

35:10

. So I think that is

35:12

a really elegant explanation of

35:14

how central UV light is to

35:17

body weight regulation . It's

35:19

the same compound , the same string

35:21

of amino acids in

35:23

a different place , is tanning your

35:25

skin and making melanin , as is stopping

35:27

you eating . I

35:29

think that says a lot , that says an

35:32

amazing amount , but

35:35

your dermatologist is not able to describe

35:37

not that I'm a I haven't met one is

35:40

able to describe the leptomalana

35:42

cord and pathway , or pom-C , in a way that

35:45

makes that clear . So maybe

35:48

, zaid , you can talk about the

35:52

role or the role

35:54

of the sun and how we can use it safely

35:56

.

35:56

Yeah , Well

35:58

, there are definitely a lot of misconceptions out there

36:01

and I think I really enjoy

36:03

being at the front , you know , being at the

36:05

front line , so to speak , in terms of

36:07

like tackling these bad ideas in regards

36:09

to sunlight , because there are a lot

36:11

of them and unfortunately , a lot of the

36:13

board certified ophthalmologists and

36:15

dermatologists are pushing these ideas

36:17

. Even the skin cancer foundation

36:20

in the States is pushing the idea that

36:22

there's no such thing as a safe tan and

36:25

, knowing what we know , that's just an absurd statement

36:27

based off of first principles thinking . Because

36:30

not only like UVA

36:32

and UVB , for example , are the two centralized

36:35

boogeymen that a lot of people

36:37

say you should avoid . They say you

36:39

should practice that avoidance around , but

36:42

, like we mentioned , uva stimulates nitric oxide

36:44

production . It also

36:46

plays a role in other physiological functions

36:48

. Uvb is the very light

36:50

wavelength that's responsible for stimulating

36:53

vitamin D3 production . So

36:55

, how you know , where is the

36:57

like ? Where's the silver lining here ? How

36:59

does it make sense that centralized medicine demonizes

37:02

the sun , uvb

37:04

, specifically in terms of vitamin D3 production

37:06

? But it hails

37:08

. Vitamin D3 is a super hormone

37:11

. So I just think there's

37:13

a disconnect there . And in terms

37:15

of like melanin , for example , a

37:18

lot of people have this idea that melanin once

37:20

you start to get dark , then that's where

37:22

you should stop sunbathing . That means you've

37:24

had enough , so to speak , because if you go above that

37:26

you have potential toxicity . But

37:29

I think that idea is absurd because in

37:31

my opinion , knowing what we know with melanin the fact

37:33

that it disassociates the

37:35

water molecule , it's responsible for human

37:37

photometabolism , it's anti-venom

37:40

, anti-inflammatory antioxidant

37:42

, the list goes on I

37:44

think once you get a tan and

37:46

all people of all skin types can get a

37:48

tan then that that

37:51

really leaves the door wide open for more sunbathing

37:53

. So , like almost everything

37:55

in centralized medicine , the idea that they're pushing

37:57

is fundamentally wrong and it's the

38:00

opposite of what they're saying that

38:02

is more correct .

38:05

And I , yeah , go on , go on .

38:08

Oh , I mean , I was just going to go on a tangent about healthy

38:10

sunbathing practices and stuff like that , but that's

38:12

a little bit of a rabbit hole .

38:14

Yeah , I wanted to make the point that it's

38:16

a logical inconsistency and

38:19

, as you said , I like to similar to you . I like

38:21

to think things from first principles . So

38:23

if we have an undeniable

38:26

, unarguable biological need for

38:28

ultraviolet light for

38:30

those pathways that you've just mentioned , but

38:34

yet it is killing us , how much

38:36

should we get ? I mean , this

38:38

is the kind of cognitive dissonance that we're

38:41

all asked to engage in if we're

38:43

following these , you know

38:45

, complete UV avoidance narratives , which

38:47

is so 20 minutes , 10 minutes ? I

38:49

mean , where is that ? It's

38:52

just an arbitrary construct . There's

38:55

no solid scientific

38:58

or reason to

39:00

basically along

39:02

that line of reasoning . So

39:05

what I would really encourage people to

39:07

think about is that there is

39:09

obviously a disconnect here and the

39:11

same thing that is giving us life can't also

39:13

be giving us disease . And it might

39:16

be the case that how

39:18

we're using the sunlight is the

39:20

key point and what the lifestyle is

39:22

of people today and is

39:24

perhaps contributing to their

39:28

disease , their skin cancer , melanoma

39:31

, rather than the sun inherently

39:33

, or rather than the sun used in an ancestral

39:35

context .

39:37

Absolutely , absolutely 100% . It's

39:40

definitely the lifestyle around light

39:42

. I mean just the fact that people take

39:44

these recommendations and they practice

39:46

sun avoidance that's a big part of the discussion

39:49

. Being under artificial light 24

39:51

seven , that's a huge part of the discussion as well . And

39:54

then other finer things that not a lot of people are aware

39:56

of , like sunglasses , contact lenses

39:58

, sunscreen . Even

40:00

just being clothed up and not intentionally

40:04

sunbathing with most of your skin in the game

40:06

, that's

40:08

a big factor as well . So I

40:10

think in general , like any conventional

40:14

prescription of like 10 , 15 , 20

40:16

minutes of sunlight , you can throw that out the window

40:18

because it is all an individual

40:20

game . What we need to understand is that

40:22

all mammals , all human beings specifically

40:25

, can develop their melanin , and

40:27

I've seen this time and time again . I

40:30

literally have hundreds of comments on Twitter from

40:32

people who are like you know , I'm a redhead

40:34

, my daughter's a redhead . We've

40:36

practiced early AM sunlight exposure for

40:38

filigree and production , and then we've

40:40

really dosed ourselves up

40:42

in a way with midday sunlight to not

40:45

burn at all and to gain all of its benefits

40:47

. And also

40:49

, like this concept of the solar callus is

40:52

absolutely huge , like I

40:54

analogize it to just

40:56

approaching the gym Like nobody would go

40:59

into the gym and try to squat 250

41:01

pounds when they have no gym experience

41:03

, like it's absurd . And

41:05

so I try to teach people that you

41:07

have to approach sunlight exposure the same way

41:09

, and then eventually you will get

41:11

to a point , no matter what your skin type is , to where

41:13

you can spend five , six

41:15

, seven hours in the sun without any problems

41:17

whatsoever .

41:20

Yeah and great points . And I'll add some nuances

41:22

here which I always make . When

41:24

we're discussing deliberate sun exposure , and

41:26

that is , if you're taking photosensitizing

41:28

medications , which include

41:30

medications like isotretinoin , like

41:33

the antibiotic doxycycline , like

41:35

a whole bunch of other medications , then you

41:37

really you can't be doing deliberate

41:40

sun exposure . This also includes

41:42

immunosuppressing medications . So if

41:44

you're on high dose of glucocorticoids

41:46

, if you're on medications for

41:48

to specifically

41:51

prevent transplant rejection , biologic

41:54

agents , all these where you're modulating

41:57

your immune system , you're essentially pharmacologically

42:01

messing

42:03

with your body's ability to deal with the whole medic

42:05

stress that is the sun . So I want

42:07

to really caveat that . And if you're on these

42:09

type of medications , then deliberate sun

42:11

exposure is not going to be for you and

42:14

I would encourage you to hopefully

42:16

work on or address the livestock

42:18

causes of whatever is going on so you can move

42:21

past and then get

42:23

some deliberate UV exposure . But

42:25

prior to that UV rise

42:27

is the red and infrared . That

42:29

is safe and that is going to be safe for

42:32

everyone . And that's going to be even

42:34

safe for people with red hair , because

42:36

another point is that people with red hair

42:38

do have a high risk of malignant

42:40

melanoma . But

42:43

if we understand the different wavelengths

42:45

of light , if we can look at and

42:47

conceptualize the different wavelengths

42:50

of sunlight appear at different times , then we can

42:52

really tailor the approach

42:54

to allow people to gain

42:56

benefit of natural sunlight without

42:59

and perhaps , if they're especially medicated

43:02

, as I mentioned , without putting

43:04

them potentially at risk of UV

43:07

damage if they're not ready to

43:09

lift the 200 kilo

43:11

barbell , as you mentioned .

43:14

Yeah , yeah , and there's the nuance there

43:16

that I didn't even know about the

43:18

photosensitive medication . So that's an excellent point

43:20

. But this idea of atrophic

43:22

skin and just having unadapted

43:25

, weakened , dysfunctional skin because of the lifestyle

43:27

factors , that's the foundation of all

43:29

of this , and

43:32

I think it's important to understand that UV

43:34

does technically damage your skin , but

43:39

your body is infinitely wise in its ability

43:41

to respond to a hormetic

43:43

stressor and get stronger as a result , assuming

43:46

you do the right things around lifestyle . So

43:49

I mean , you're speaking my language . That's 100%

43:51

there .

43:52

Yeah , and great point , jade , because neither

43:55

of us are suggesting that UVA isn't

43:57

carcinogenic or UVB doesn't

43:59

have the potential to be carcinogenic . That

44:01

is unequivocal . What

44:04

both of us are saying is that if it's used

44:07

correctly , if the body's

44:09

hormetic ability

44:11

is preserved , then that is

44:13

not going to be injurious to the

44:16

organism . And it involves

44:18

doing everything that we've mentioned involves

44:21

getting that early morning read in infrared

44:23

first to precondition the skin . It involves

44:26

building up this idea of a

44:28

solar callus . So

44:30

there's proper ways of doing it and there's

44:32

improper ways of doing it . And

44:35

I like to draw an analogy to the

44:37

cholesterol and

44:39

heart disease , because the

44:42

predominant narrative within cardiology

44:44

and preventative cardiology is that any

44:47

level of LDL

44:50

, total cholesterol or APOB beyond

44:52

a very strict , arbitrary cutoff is

44:55

depositing a plaque in the arteries

44:57

. And there's no allowance or nuance

44:59

in that argument for a situation

45:01

where we can safely have

45:04

a higher LDL or higher APOB

45:06

. And it really ignores all that other

45:08

evidence . That includes things like people

45:11

living longer with higher LDL

45:13

, facts of

45:16

immune function that the LDL particle

45:18

has , the fact that it's traffic energy , fast-sufferable

45:21

vitamins . All that gets thrown out the window . And

45:24

I think that that analogy holds

45:26

in centralized dermatology

45:28

and this discussion around the sun , because we're basically

45:30

throwing out all the benefits of UV

45:33

light exposure , including the nitric

45:35

oxide , including the pom-C , including

45:37

the vitamin D production , and when we're telling

45:40

people to put UV blocking sunscreens

45:42

on all day to cover up

45:45

and do everything that you mentioned

45:47

in this advice .

45:50

Yeah , yeah , and it's extremely damaging to society

45:52

as a whole . It's only making the

45:54

state of our health worse , on

45:56

an individual and societal level , and I think it's extremely

45:59

sad , which is why it's

46:01

important for us to tackle these ideas head on , because

46:03

we just have no room for them . There

46:06

are archaic ideas led by

46:08

a system that is just not catching up

46:10

to what the evidence provides .

46:12

Yeah , and before we move on I

46:14

want to talk about Nelina next . I just want to

46:17

read out a

46:19

couple lines of a paper and I

46:21

am not the first person to reach

46:24

for epidemiology and I think that it

46:26

inherently has a range of flaws

46:29

, but when we're looking at a hard endpoint

46:31

like mortality , then it

46:33

can be much , much

46:35

higher quality . And I just want to quickly

46:37

read out for the listeners . This study is called

46:40

Higher Ultraviolet Light Exposure is

46:42

associated with lower mortality an

46:44

analysis of the UK Biobank cohort

46:47

study . So this paper was

46:49

published . In

46:52

what year was it published in ? It

46:59

doesn't make me exactly when it was published , but I'm just going to

47:02

read the conclusion

47:05

out for you , because I think this really sums

47:07

up very elegantly in

47:11

unequivocally what

47:13

Zayad and I have been talking from a mechanistic

47:15

point of view . So the discussion says

47:17

we find that the UK Biobank participants

47:19

with more active sun seeking behaviors

47:21

and who lived at lower at latitude with

47:24

a higher average UV exposure

47:26

, have a lower risk

47:28

of all cause , cardiovascular

47:30

disease and cancer mortality

47:32

. These results are consistent for

47:34

two very different types of exposure

47:36

, suggesting that

47:39

it is UV exposure and not an unmeasured

47:41

variable that leads to the lower

47:43

mortality risk . And

47:46

they go on to say that these results

47:48

add to the growing literature suggesting

47:50

that UV exposure is associated with lower

47:52

mortality risk , and it lists a whole

47:55

bunch of other papers . So

47:58

this is the square that this

48:00

is the question we need to ask to

48:02

people who are trying to tell

48:05

us to avoid the sunlight . That

48:07

is a pretty unequivocal , pretty

48:09

obvious in finding that you're

48:11

going to live longer , you're

48:13

going to get less cancer and cardiovascular

48:16

disease if you have a deliberate sun

48:18

seeking exposure .

48:20

Yeah , yeah , and I've come across a lot of research

48:22

in terms of , like , the farther you go from the

48:24

equator , the higher incidence

48:27

of cancer and all these other chronic diseases out

48:30

that you expose yourself to . And I think it

48:33

just makes sense from an evolutionary perspective , because

48:35

we evolved in the cradle of

48:37

civilization , so to speak , around the equator . So

48:39

you know , it was only thousands

48:41

of years after that which we traveled to

48:43

higher latitude areas

48:45

and then we set ourselves up in

48:47

those little little camps , so to speak . But that

48:50

just in my opinion , I think it just makes

48:52

sense , especially knowing all the mechanistic things that we

48:54

do .

48:55

Yeah , and to cap this off

48:57

, and one more very interesting point , it

49:00

says participants with more active

49:02

sun-seeking behavior also had lower

49:05

crude mortality from skin cancer

49:07

. From skin cancer , so

49:09

you can get , you're still

49:11

going to live longer even if

49:14

you're developing these

49:16

skin cancers . So

49:18

and an inverse relationship

49:20

between solar UV exposure and cancer mortality

49:22

. So , in terms of living

49:24

longer , which is the goal of your clients

49:26

, which is the goal of my clients

49:29

, my patients , this is what we

49:31

want to do and it's pretty obvious

49:33

that UV light is part of that . Let's talk

49:35

about melanin , because what

49:38

you talked about just mentioned earlier is that everyone's

49:42

told to get to the point or the

49:44

centralized advice is . Even tanning

49:46

is a problem , but you've described

49:49

a couple functions of melanin and I think

49:51

it bears out a little bit

49:53

more , deserves a bit more discussion about the

49:55

benefits of melanin .

49:57

Yeah , absolutely so . You

50:00

know melanin . When people think about melanin they only think

50:02

about tanning , and I think that's unfortunate

50:04

because if you search through the literature , melanin

50:07

is probably the most powerful polymer out

50:09

there . I mean the most , one of the most powerful compounds

50:11

out there . And it makes sense from an evolutionary

50:13

perspective because this is how we evolved as mammals

50:15

. But , like I said , I mean

50:17

anti -venom . In some cases it

50:19

responds to certain venoms . In terms

50:21

of protection , it's a powerful anti-inflammatory

50:24

, powerful anti-antioxidant

50:27

, it's an immune modulator

50:29

. So I've even seen evidence that

50:31

it helps with HIV patients

50:33

especially . And then

50:36

the biggest one in my opinion , the one that I've gone

50:38

deeper on , is the idea that melanin

50:41

is . Melanin's relationship

50:43

with light and water is central

50:45

to human photometabolism , which

50:47

is a foreign concept , especially to centralized

50:49

medicine . But it's this idea that whenever

50:52

photons strike your skin through

50:55

midday sun exposure and you have

50:57

adequate melanin , then your

51:00

body uses the photoelectric effect to then

51:02

cleave off or produce

51:05

electrons , which

51:07

we know has a very powerful

51:09

effect on health . So those

51:12

are just a few of the things that come to mind , but

51:14

really everybody should

51:16

be orienting their lifestyle

51:18

around building more melanin , because it

51:21

is such a powerful compound .

51:24

Amazing and there was work of

51:26

, I believe , dr Herrera , who

51:29

has shown that , who has done

51:31

pioneering work on the evidence

51:33

for the ability of melanin to essentially

51:35

allow us to derive energy

51:37

from the sun . And

51:39

listeners to my podcast will know that we've

51:42

talked about the electron transport chain , we've talked about mitochondrial

51:45

function and how electrons

51:48

are the input into that electron

51:50

transport chain . So it's fascinating

51:53

to think that we've evolved , or nature

51:55

has evolved , this compound that allows

51:57

us to essentially harness solar

51:59

radiation to

52:01

improve or to improve the function

52:04

or to essentially derive energy . I

52:06

believe that he initially

52:08

noticed that when he was looking at

52:10

the retinas of

52:12

a range of people with

52:15

retinal diseases

52:17

, with age-related macular

52:19

degeneration and those

52:21

basically , where there was melanin

52:23

, there were less blood vessels , indicating

52:26

that there was essentially an ability

52:28

for the tissue to operate

52:31

through or

52:33

just by harnessing that light

52:35

energy through melanin . So , yeah

52:37

, melanin has got so many compounds

52:40

and , look , we haven't even talked about the

52:42

kind of this idea of melanin as a

52:44

biological semiconductor , and this is getting

52:46

into quite a deep realm

52:49

of quantum biology . But if

52:51

we're really again thinking about the body as

52:53

an electric being that's

52:55

running off electrons and protons

52:58

, then it's also got this function

53:01

as a biological semiconductor , so

53:03

I don't know if you want to make any comments about that

53:05

. We're happy to keep it at a more higher level for

53:07

people , if you don't .

53:13

Yeah , I mean in terms of the biological

53:15

semiconductor . That is certainly a deep rabbit hole that

53:17

I need to explore more of , especially

53:20

in relation to quantum biology . But I would

53:22

like to share that . You know , melanin

53:24

is not just one form of melanin . You

53:26

have three forms of melanin . So you have neuromelanin

53:29

in the brain . The

53:31

destruction of neuromelanin through various

53:34

means has been implicated in potentially

53:36

, parkinson's disease , dementia , a whole

53:38

bunch of other neurodegenerative disorders . And

53:41

then you have you melanin , which

53:43

is responsible for the browns and blacks in nature

53:45

. It's more protective

53:47

from UV . But then

53:50

you also have pheomelanin , which is

53:52

responsible for the reds , oranges

53:55

, yellows , the pinks . I

53:57

mean , if you look at flamingos or like a red fox

53:59

, that's an example and this is typically

54:02

what lighter skinned people have . So even

54:04

in relation to melanin , people tan

54:07

differently , and this is also something

54:09

I want to reiterate , because I feel like there's

54:12

this , there's this unconscious

54:14

like expectation that a light skinned

54:16

person is supposed to tan exactly the same

54:18

way as a dark skinned person . But that's not

54:20

true . So I think if we can orient

54:22

ourselves around these different types of melanin and then

54:25

peg ourselves individually around

54:27

what type we have more of , then

54:30

we can use light in a responsible

54:32

way to maximize that type of melanin .

54:35

Yeah , great , great points . And

54:37

what about ? What about some takeaways

54:39

for people ? So they've listened

54:41

to us talk about the health

54:44

benefits of sunlight , of of

54:46

in terms of their weight , in terms of maybe

54:48

their cardiovascular disease risk

54:51

as well . So how , how do

54:53

you approach advising people to get suns

54:55

safely , so that they're

54:57

not inadvertently doing

55:00

damage ?

55:02

Yeah , so , like we mentioned earlier

55:04

, a huge focus on early AM sunlight . So

55:07

this can be anywhere between sunrise

55:09

and about , I'd say , nine or 10 AM

55:11

, depending on where you are . That

55:13

is what's going to help with a skin protein known as filigree

55:16

that has a protective effect on the skin . There

55:18

are some other factors that that have

55:20

to do with that as well , but you're essentially just priming

55:22

your skin for higher UVA

55:24

and UVB conditions , and

55:26

in just that alone I've seen people

55:28

experience some great results in terms of

55:30

not burning , building melanin during

55:33

midday , so forth . Outside

55:35

of this , I think , the

55:38

sunglasses discussion , the sunglasses

55:40

, sunscreen , contact lenses . There's nuance here

55:42

, but in general , ditch your

55:44

sunglasses . Your eyes are

55:46

a muscle , so you just have to get acclimated to

55:48

natural light Contacts

55:51

. I usually recommend that people transition

55:54

to reading glasses so that it's easier to actually

55:56

transition into sunlight . And then

55:58

there are other things as well . You're not causing a

56:01

hypoxia of the cornea , you're not influencing

56:03

the light spectrum in a negative way . And

56:06

sunscreen , of course , knowing what we know about

56:08

neuroactoderm the fact

56:10

that the skin of your brain

56:12

, eyes and tissue are essentially the same then

56:16

just removing all sunscreen and replacing that

56:18

with early AM sunlight is a key part

56:20

. And then , of course , protecting yourself from artificial

56:22

light as much as possible , especially after sunset

56:24

, because you want melatonin

56:26

and the circadian

56:29

mechanism to function properly .

56:31

Yeah , that's a key one , and people

56:33

will really do damage if

56:35

they're getting off a plane jet lagged and their

56:37

circadian rhythm is up the creek and

56:40

then they get out

56:42

from Sydney Airport , they go to Bondi Beach and

56:44

they pretty quickly look like a prawn , and

56:47

so don't be one of those people

56:49

. The

56:51

other point I wanted to make is about dietary , and

56:53

we actually have some good evidence , even some

56:56

randomized evidence , that increasing

56:59

omega three in the diet

57:01

basically reduces photosensitivity

57:03

, and there was a couple of papers in

57:05

people who had some quite obscure

57:08

genetic photosensitivity

57:10

conditions and simply putting them on

57:12

a higher omega three diet and

57:14

this in this one was supplementation reduce

57:17

their burning

57:19

and their photosensitivity . What I

57:21

think we compare that with , if we're putting

57:23

together the pieces of this puzzle , is that people

57:26

burn less when they get

57:28

rid of refined seed oils . So

57:30

when they cut down on omega six fatty

57:33

acids the refined ones from canola

57:36

oil , vegetable oil , corn , soy , grape

57:38

, seed , cottonseed oil they

57:40

stop burning or they burn a lot less . So

57:42

I think together that speaks

57:45

to this fundamental aspect

57:47

of the fatty acid composition of our

57:49

body and our skin in terms of

57:51

influencing

57:53

our burning ability . And we already know that drugs

57:56

can influence photosensitivity . As I mentioned

57:59

, doxycycline , acetretin no one . We

58:01

advise you to avoid the sun when you're on those drugs

58:03

because they influence photosensitivity

58:06

. So any comments about

58:08

your dietary approach ?

58:12

Yeah , I mean definitely more animal-based , ancestrally

58:15

aligned nutrition approach . I

58:17

think , of course , the vegetable

58:19

oil topic has been it's been hammered

58:22

on so much over , especially Twitter , and

58:24

it's starting to get into mainstream as well , which is

58:26

nice . But , in general , just making sure

58:28

that you focus on grass-fed

58:30

, grass-finished animal fats that are low in deuterium

58:32

. Wild

58:35

caught seafood I'm absolutely a big advocate

58:37

of so any shellfish as well oyster

58:40

, shrimp , scallops , wild

58:43

caught sardines , mackerel , that's

58:45

. You know , at the end of the day , the food that you eat

58:48

and the fatty acid composition is what makes

58:50

up the quality of your skin . So

58:53

I think that's a very important point . But it's

58:55

also important to emphasize that you don't need to

58:57

cut out vegetable oils completely . The

59:00

human body is really resilient and

59:02

I've seen clients experience

59:04

great results even when they're not so

59:07

like regimented about avoiding vegetable

59:09

oil . I think the most important thing is to just

59:11

get those natural Omega-3

59:14

and other foods into your diet .

59:17

Yeah , interesting observation . I

59:19

think everyone will benefit from getting lower

59:22

down in those seed

59:24

oils , but interesting that you've found that people

59:26

can still get benefit even if they don't

59:29

. So that's a fascinating and really

59:31

useful takeaway for the listener . Any

59:33

final thoughts or anything that

59:35

you'd like to mention before we wrap

59:37

up ?

59:39

Yeah , I would just like to say , you know

59:42

, at the end of the day , the sun is to be respected . It's

59:44

a double-edged sword , but I think

59:46

we need to err on more of the side that

59:49

the sun is the very thing responsible

59:51

for all life on Earth . We've evolved

59:53

with it ever since , you know

59:55

, mammals came out of , came into existence

59:57

, and I would really like

59:59

to see more people just have that curiosity

1:00:01

to be able to look into this work that we're sharing

1:00:03

here , because there are a lot of bad ideas

1:00:05

that are being shared by centralized medicine , and it's

1:00:07

unfortunate because , of

1:00:10

course , there's corrupt influence . You have the Rockefeller-inspired

1:00:12

centralized medical system . There's

1:00:15

a lot to it , but at the end of the day , we need to respect the

1:00:17

sun and make sure that we approach light environment properly

1:00:19

.

1:00:20

Great advice and I really

1:00:23

would echo that . This is a Hormetic

1:00:25

Stressor . Uv light is a Hormetic

1:00:27

Stressor , which means that

1:00:29

you need to use it wisely , you need to allow

1:00:31

yourself to recover appropriately and

1:00:34

, as we talked about , you have to prepare before

1:00:36

you do any kind of deliberate UV

1:00:38

light exposure . So I think

1:00:41

that those caveats need to be well well

1:00:43

received and not not . I

1:00:45

don't think so . People don't take out what

1:00:48

we're saying out of context and , yes

1:00:50

, the end of the day , we want to . We're doing this to help people

1:00:52

optimize their health , live longer

1:00:54

and prevent disease , which I think we've

1:00:56

. We've basically showed that the

1:00:59

sunlight is incredibly integral to to

1:01:01

that . So , zaid , thanks for your time

1:01:03

. Where can people find you ? And maybe

1:01:05

let us know what you're , what you're offering

1:01:07

and and how people can engage with you ?

1:01:11

Yes , you can find me at Zaid K

1:01:13

Dahaj on Twitter . On Instagram

1:01:15

as well same handle . I'm sure you'll have it in the description

1:01:17

. In terms of what I'm

1:01:19

I'm focused on , I've I'm transitioning

1:01:22

away actually from online coaching and I'm

1:01:24

going to work with people in person within the Southern

1:01:26

California area , so that's going to be very

1:01:28

exciting . And , of course , I'm going

1:01:30

to put light environment at the very top of this work

1:01:32

and I really think that

1:01:34

my my mission now is to really educate everyday

1:01:37

people on on just light and how important

1:01:39

it is and all the nuance associated with it . So

1:01:41

that's going to be my main focus .

1:01:44

Yeah , fantastic , we'll include that information

1:01:46

so people can can get in touch with you . And

1:01:48

yeah , follow Zaid on Twitter . He's got

1:01:51

some amazing educational content which

1:01:53

is very , very thoroughly interesting and

1:01:55

and well researched . So thanks very much , mate

1:01:57

, for coming on and great to talk . Thanks

1:02:09

, max , it's been a fun time .