3:40

Welcome back to the regenerative health podcast

3:42

. I am sitting down with

3:45

Cameron Borg Now . Cameron

3:47

is a nutritionist , a practicing

3:49

pulmonary technologist and a

3:52

podcaster on a bunch

3:54

of very interesting health topics . Now

3:56

Cameron is probably among

3:58

maybe five people in Australia

4:01

who are actually delving

4:03

deeply into light as health

4:05

, light as medicine , and

4:07

asking very important questions

4:10

to uncover exactly what

4:12

is going on and how light is really

4:14

impacting our health . So , cameron

4:16

, thank you for coming on the podcast .

4:19

Thank you so much for having me , max . That was a great

4:21

introduction . I'm very chuffed to be on

4:23

here First time I've been invited as a guest

4:25

.

4:27

Yeah , so your podcast , the Ricky Flow Nutrition

4:29

Podcast , was the jumping

4:31

off point for a couple of guests that I've had

4:33

on and my listeners will

4:35

recognize the names , like Scott Zimmerman , stephanie

4:39

Seneff . You've

4:42

really thought along very similar

4:44

lines as I have and very much enjoyed

4:47

those discussions . But let's

4:49

start with your

4:52

brief background . How do you arrive

4:54

to investigating

4:56

these type of more interesting

4:58

, complex and unconventional

5:00

health paths ?

5:04

Yes , I think , like most people , I

5:06

had a health problem of

5:08

my own . I was a very sickly

5:10

child , almost died

5:12

at childbirth . Very traumatic birth

5:14

, very sick as a child , and

5:17

I had asthma , eczema

5:20

, you name it . I was a very unhappy

5:23

baby and eventually grew out of

5:25

it as a teen , sort

5:28

of started to level out a little bit more

5:31

, was never really super health conscious

5:33

, as most teenagers

5:36

tend to be , and

5:38

I got tangled up

5:40

with a staff infection

5:43

that wouldn't go away and

5:46

it's just spent thousands of dollars at specialists

5:49

who just had no idea what to do . And

5:52

a friend of mine sort

5:54

of put me on to a

5:56

couple of people . He got me to

5:58

listen to a few podcasts and I started to get into

6:00

nutrition , thinking , wow , isn't

6:03

it amazing that what we eat can actually change

6:05

our body's responses to things ? And I'd

6:07

never been interested in the things that I

6:10

ate and never really thought about how that impacted

6:12

me . But the idea that it did

6:14

was very exciting to me and I

6:17

ended up sorting out all

6:19

my staff infection myself and

6:22

realizing that these specialists

6:25

and doctors don't always know

6:27

the best thing to do and often

6:29

they're actually hamstrung by

6:31

the fact that they live in such a small

6:34

world of ideas and

6:36

that really sort of opened

6:39

the world of health up to me a little bit more . I

6:41

got really passionate about nutrition , this

6:45

whole food first model . You know , food

6:47

is everything . That was sort of the world that I

6:49

was living in at the time and

6:51

I went to university . I studied nutrition

6:53

. I didn't learn a damn thing for three

6:55

years but got a certificate

6:58

to say that somehow I know

7:00

more now , which was

7:02

kind of funny to me . But about halfway through

7:05

my degree I sort of cottoned

7:07

on to these people talking about the

7:10

different aspects of health and why food

7:13

ranked quite low on the list of things

7:15

that were most important . And

7:18

that's when I really started to figure

7:20

out that these things that guys

7:22

like Jack Cruise were talking about were

7:24

really the most important places

7:27

to be looking at first . And it

7:29

sort of occurred to me as I read

7:31

, you know , about 2025

7:34

books over the course of a semester

7:36

when I was at uni , you know , just

7:38

because I'd come on to this wealth

7:40

of knowledge and I just couldn't stop reading and

7:42

I realized , you know , over the last

7:45

100 years we've encountered

7:47

, you know , this rise in diseases

7:50

that we've never seen before . That

7:53

can't be explained through genetics , because

7:56

genetics don't work like that . So

7:58

clearly the environment is the

8:01

primary factor in

8:03

all of these . And I thought well , if the environment

8:05

is the primary factor to

8:07

explain the chronic disease epidemics

8:10

, should we not look at the largest changes

8:12

in the environment over the last century

8:14

first ? Shouldn't that just be

8:16

the most logical starting point ? And the

8:19

unfortunate answer you get

8:21

there is the electromagnetic environment

8:23

that we're living in has changed . It's

8:26

not even remotely the same . And

8:29

you know , our eyes are

8:31

funny because we can't see these , these

8:33

fields , we're not aware that

8:36

we're exposed to them . But

8:38

clearly that is the biggest

8:40

change in our environment over the last century

8:42

. And light is included in that electromagnetic

8:45

spectrum . And

8:47

that is when I really started

8:49

to realize these changes

8:51

in our environment have to be the first thing we prioritize

8:54

. And food has changed over

8:56

the last century , no one can doubt that

8:58

. But the reality is , has it changed

9:00

as much as our light environment ? I think there's

9:02

an argument there to say that it probably hasn't

9:04

changed as much as our lighting environment . And

9:07

that's where I sort of got

9:09

interested in things that were

9:12

beyond the scope of the conventional

9:14

space and I had to , you know

9:16

, branch out . And actually

9:18

, the reason I started the podcast

9:20

was so I could speak to people that

9:22

I couldn't get access to otherwise and ask

9:25

them questions about my own health and

9:28

sort of start to figure things out like that . And

9:30

it's just . You know , that's a very brief version

9:33

of the story , but that's essentially

9:35

how I got to looking

9:37

into all of these nooks and crannies , trying

9:40

to be on the cutting edge as much as possible

9:43

, and I think that's

9:45

mirrored by a lot of people who end up , you

9:47

know , looking into these ideas .

9:50

Definitely the call

9:54

of the statement that the

9:56

change in the electromagnetic environment

9:58

and that we're exposed to is the biggest

10:00

change . That is a fascinating

10:03

statement . It's one that I agree with , but

10:05

one that most people will

10:07

really scratch their heads at . And

10:10

the pathway that

10:12

most kind of health people

10:15

with health interested is very much dietary

10:18

focused and for a lot of people they stop

10:20

. I think they stop at the diet in terms

10:22

of how can we improve

10:25

health ? So the changes

10:27

that you refer to from a dietary point of view are

10:29

obviously the introduction

10:32

of refined seed

10:34

oils and , from the

10:37

early 1910s onwards , and

10:39

the introduction of highly

10:41

refined foods like carbs

10:43

and sugar , and

10:45

also , you know , maybe perhaps the movement

10:48

towards vegan

10:50

and plant based eating and low fat eating

10:52

in the past 30 , 40

10:54

years and , I'm sorry , vegan more

10:56

in the past , maybe 10 years . So

10:58

explain these changes in the electromagnetic

11:01

spectrum and why do you

11:03

think that is more significant than what has

11:05

happened to our diets ?

11:08

Well , I mean starting with light . What

11:10

we've done essentially since the advent

11:13

of the incandescent bulb , which is basically

11:17

running I'm not a physicist

11:19

or an electrical engineer , but they're

11:21

with me basically basically running a

11:23

current through a tungsten filament at

11:26

a high enough voltage so that it starts producing

11:28

visible light . Now , to do that

11:31

with a filament , you actually have to run

11:33

quite a bit through it to actually get visible

11:35

light to come out , because tungsten

11:37

filaments are really good at generating long

11:39

wavelength light near infrared

11:41

and infrared which we don't see . So it's basically

11:44

useless if you want to use it for vision

11:46

. But we

11:48

realized somewhere along the way that

11:51

that light was very inefficient for

11:53

visual use

11:55

. So there was this idea

11:57

that you know well , we can't see it , so

12:00

let's just remove it and make

12:02

things more efficient , which I understand

12:04

. It kind of makes sense in that

12:07

way , and we basically

12:09

went down , you know , changing

12:11

from incandescent bulbs

12:13

to halogens , to fluorescent tubes , and

12:16

now we've got to LEDs , which are hyper

12:18

efficient . They're phenomenal

12:21

pieces of engineering . But

12:23

what we've done is essentially we've we

12:25

have removed 90%

12:28

of the spectrum and

12:31

we didn't even know it because we

12:33

can't tell and because

12:35

our eyes are so easy to trick . You're

12:38

lured into this sense of safety where

12:40

, you know , a light is a light and a

12:43

light is not a light . Unfortunately and

12:45

I have , I'm lucky

12:47

enough to be sitting here right in front of one of Scott's

12:49

bulbs Scott Zimmerman's bulbs where

12:51

, you know , I'm being bathed with

12:53

quite a bit of near infrared broadband

12:55

near infrared right now , but I'm I

12:59

know I'm the only person in Australia with this light bulb

13:01

and it's illegal to own light bulbs

13:03

, to purchase light bulbs like this in

13:05

Australia and most European countries and in

13:08

the States and things like that . So

13:11

light has fundamentally changed

13:13

beyond recognition . It's just

13:15

our eyes are not suited to understand

13:17

that and that's a huge

13:20

problem . So , you

13:22

know , I've been reading quite

13:24

a bit of Nick Lane recently , who

13:26

is one of my favorite writers

13:29

, and in his book

13:31

the Vital Question , he really pins

13:34

down this idea that this endosymbiotic

13:36

event , the use

13:38

of what we now call a mitochondria , which

13:40

is these old purple bacteria

13:42

going inside

13:45

of another single celled organism

13:47

that endosymbiotic event

13:50

is so important

13:52

in in what

13:54

we are today . And fundamentally

13:57

, our mitochondria are run by

13:59

the influence of light and

14:02

, conversely , not only run by light but

14:04

also run by the darkness . You know , you

14:06

can't take on light

14:09

without thinking about the darkness as well

14:11

, because they're both as important as one another , and

14:13

you could think of that as an enormous departure

14:16

in our electromagnetic spectrum as well . We no

14:18

longer have true darkness anymore , we

14:20

no longer have night , and

14:22

that is a massive change . And that's on

14:24

the circadian side mostly . But the

14:27

effects of those short

14:30

wavelength lights that we're getting LEDs on

14:33

the skin and in the eyes at night are

14:35

also detrimental . So

14:39

just on the light side we're experiencing

14:41

an enormous amount of shift . You

14:43

know , beyond , beyond what

14:45

we could even think about . And

14:47

then we have the introduction of telecommunications

14:50

and you know , we have things like

14:53

you know , I think , the real . There are

14:55

a lot of people talking about 5G

14:57

, and I think that's important because

14:59

5G does seem to be extremely

15:02

detrimental . You know anyone who doesn't believe that

15:04

. I mean , there's so many books out there

15:07

. You know the invisible rainbow , arthur

15:09

Firstenburg , overpowered by

15:11

Martin Blank . You go back

15:14

and read all of Robert Becker and Andrew Marino's

15:16

work and you will understand very quickly that

15:20

these even very

15:22

, very weak electromagnetic

15:25

fields have tangible

15:28

biological effects . But

15:31

I think really the most pernicious is Wi-Fi , because

15:33

it's everywhere . 5g is not everywhere at

15:37

the moment . Perhaps that's what

15:39

they're trying to do . But Wi-Fi is just so

15:41

pernicious , it's everywhere

15:44

and I think the effects

15:46

of Wi-Fi are quite well documented in

15:48

the literature . I

15:52

know of rat studies showing

15:54

that the 2.4 GHz is damaging the islet

15:57

cells of the pancreas , and

16:00

you know this is . This makes a lot of sense

16:02

when you think about type 2 diabetes and metabolic

16:06

syndrome . You know growing exponential

16:08

rates . Unfortunately , not many people are looking into

16:12

this . But you know

16:14

we're living on a

16:16

world that no longer resembles our ancestors' world

16:18

. There's

16:21

nowhere on this planet that you

16:23

can escape the long

16:25

radio wave communication signals , which

16:30

is quite sad when you think about it , that we

16:32

will never . You know we don't want to be

16:34

in a Faraday

16:37

cage either , because we actually need some . We need the

16:39

native electromagnetic fields that are

16:41

a result of the interaction between the sun

16:43

and the earth's atmosphere . But

16:45

you know finding that

16:48

balance is extremely difficult . And you

16:50

know we've got high voltage power lines , cell

16:52

towers , satellites

16:55

, phones in our pockets all the time , laptops

16:57

, you name it . Anything that's got , you know

17:01

, a battery in it is producing

17:03

some sort of field . And if it's a phone , if it's a communication

17:05

device , then it's

17:07

not only producing the radio waves , it's producing

17:09

the bi-directional microwaves as

17:11

well , and all

17:14

of these things have biological effects . It

17:17

would be very nice to think that you

17:20

know the old story that if it's not thermal

17:23

energy , then it doesn't matter , if it's not ionizing , then

17:25

it doesn't matter , which is such

17:28

a small-minded and myopic way of viewing

17:30

the way our bodies work

17:33

. You know we're electrical beings , you know . You

17:35

know we can pick up brain signals , heart signals

17:38

from , you know , way outside the body , and

17:41

I think it would be foolish to think that we're not

17:44

being impacted by all

17:46

the soup of electromagnetic fields

17:49

that we're in , unfortunately , you know , I

17:52

do think that that's the biggest change , but it's

17:54

also the one that's , I guess

17:56

, arguably the most difficult to try

17:59

and adjust and

18:01

get as right as you possibly can . Because

18:04

sometimes the answer is you know , you

18:06

have to move , you have to

18:09

go somewhere else , you have to change job

18:11

, you have to do these massive things

18:14

and unfortunately

18:16

most people , for right or

18:18

for wrong , aren't ready to make that step , and that's

18:20

completely understandable . But

18:23

it is important to acknowledge because it's quite

18:25

easy to , you know , put the phone

18:27

on airplane mode . It's quite

18:29

easy to switch everything off at night

18:32

. You know , it's quite easy to go out to the box

18:34

and put the kill switch and

18:36

make sure you're sleeping with as

18:38

little influence from these fields

18:40

as possible . So , even

18:43

though it's kind of like we'll never experience

18:45

a world that

18:47

is free of these non native , these

18:49

man made electromagnetic fields , we

18:52

can quite easily limit

18:54

our exposure in

18:57

our homes and in our workplaces . So

18:59

I try not to

19:01

be negative about these things , because I do

19:03

think we can make differences

19:05

and I think in some cases the man-made

19:09

electromagnetic fields are not as bad as some

19:11

people say that they are , or at least I

19:13

hope that that's the case . But

19:16

the reality is we can all make differences

19:19

quite easily in our

19:21

homes and workplaces and just in

19:23

our daily practices . You know putting

19:25

the phone away , you know reading a book instead

19:27

of being on the laptop . All

19:31

of these things are going to make a difference . So

19:34

I think that's fundamentally where

19:36

I see this largest shift

19:38

in the environment that we

19:41

are living in now , and

19:44

I think it has extraordinary explanatory

19:46

power with regard to what we're

19:48

seeing with regards to health and

19:51

disease . But

19:55

it's a very difficult topic to research

19:57

. Not many people are funding this

19:59

. As soon as you start looking into

20:01

it , you end up like the Swedish researcher

20:03

, oli Johansen , who was

20:06

at the Karolinsk Institute

20:08

doing this work and now he finds

20:10

himself with no office . I

20:13

think he was called the biggest quack of the year

20:15

a few years back in Sweden

20:17

. This guy is a serious

20:19

researcher who is calling for changing

20:22

the laws , predominantly to protect

20:24

children , because they are the most susceptible

20:27

to these waves . So

20:31

we're in a bit of a tough spot with

20:33

regard to researching the effects of this

20:36

part of our environment . But

20:38

I think more and more people are beginning to understand

20:41

that you know , keeping your phone

20:43

in your bra or your

20:45

front pocket , you

20:48

know there are most definitely risks

20:50

associated with that . So

20:53

I think it's not a hard sell

20:56

to go that far . But to go further

20:58

with what we're saying , that's

21:00

a little bit more of a difficult story to get across

21:02

.

21:04

Yeah , there's so much there . Cameron and

21:06

I have previously

21:08

recorded with a bunch of guests who've discussed

21:10

this topic as well , and really

21:13

Tristan Scott's episodes are

21:15

very important and informative . The

21:18

change that you mentioned particularly

21:20

and I like to put a date or approximate

21:22

date on it to really help people to understand

21:25

is basically the late 1800s

21:27

when electricity was

21:29

essentially invented and

21:32

the light bulb . The

21:34

electricity wars happened and then eventually

21:36

there was widespread

21:38

use of electricity . And previously that

21:41

was when we had the first

21:43

of this non-visible

21:46

light at night that didn't come

21:48

from fire , that didn't come from the moon

21:50

, and that's kind of that's

21:52

really the before and after , because prior

21:55

to that time , prior to the invention of electricity

21:57

, the electromagnetic spectrum that we

21:59

all were bathed in was

22:01

natural , it was visible , it

22:04

was sunlight during the day , including ultraviolet

22:06

and infrared , and then

22:08

basically very little at

22:11

night , and then you had these human resonance

22:13

and a couple

22:15

of very , very faint

22:17

long range

22:19

radio frequencies . So

22:22

if you think about that , and

22:24

then you think about what we are sitting

22:27

in today in a soup of radio

22:29

frequency radiation from Wi-Fi , 4g

22:32

, 3g , 4g , 5g , 5g

22:35

and then layering that on top

22:37

of this artificial blue

22:39

light because you alluded

22:41

to the point that we've stripped out

22:43

infrared . Well , although incandescent

22:46

and halogen was still a problem at night , it

22:48

was during the day . At least it gave us some infrared

22:51

, which is what we need from the sun and

22:53

that's what the sun is providing

22:55

. So , and yeah , really

22:57

, really just stripping it back in the name of efficiency

23:00

. The point about diabetes

23:04

is very interesting and I

23:06

think that , because no one can see these

23:08

non-nave

23:11

EMFs , the harm

23:13

that they've done is , I think , ascribed

23:16

to food , and it's ascribed to the

23:19

carbs and the seed oils , which are no doubt

23:21

exacerbating the problem . But

23:23

the fascinating implication is that perhaps

23:26

it was the light

23:28

at night and the Wi-Fi

23:30

that was essentially setting up the

23:32

metabolic ground

23:34

or the metabolic problem

23:37

that the food

23:39

later exacerbates , and I think

23:41

anyone who's worked a shift work or has had

23:43

to stay up all night will tell you that they

23:45

crave carbs and sweet things the next

23:47

morning . So

23:50

it's a very interesting thought to

23:52

think that it's really our environmental

23:55

electromagnetic signature environment

23:57

that's really setting the stage for

23:59

what the food later exacerbates

24:02

.

24:03

Yeah , absolutely . And that's what really gets

24:06

me about the

24:08

books , like the China Study by T

24:10

Colin Campbell . He

24:13

talks about the differences in cancer

24:15

incidents between the people

24:17

eating the most meat and the people eating the least meat

24:20

in China . And , of course , the people eating

24:22

the most meat were the ones living in the

24:24

cities and the ones eating the least

24:26

amount of meat were in . You know , they were out

24:28

in the rural areas , you know , with

24:30

firelight at night , and

24:33

it's like dude , it's the completely

24:35

different environment , it's not the meat . You know

24:37

you're missing the whole point . You know , and

24:40

that's what really gets me about a lot of these

24:42

. You know these trends

24:44

that you see . They

24:46

completely dodge all of the big

24:49

hitters in the environmental influences

24:51

you know they're not talking about . Well

24:53

, clearly the people in rural

24:55

areas had tighter circadian rhythms . Clearly

24:58

they were getting more sunlight and

25:00

they were earthing more because they were out in the rice

25:02

paddy fields . You know , with

25:05

no shoes on . How

25:07

can you not be taking this into account ? And

25:10

of course , it all comes back to , you

25:12

know , ideology . It's very easy . And

25:15

you know the reason we grab

25:17

onto food , this whole food first idea

25:19

, is because it's tangible , we can track

25:21

it , we can see it , we can taste it . It's

25:23

there , it's tangible , we can understand

25:26

it , we can grasp what's going on there . You know

25:28

this whole idea of calories in calories

25:30

out super appealing because it's an equation

25:32

. You know that's not at all how it

25:34

works . You know we're an infinitely complex

25:36

biological system . That's not how

25:38

it works . You can't just , you know , break it

25:40

down to . You know X amount of

25:42

calories You're going to lose weight , you're

25:45

going to be better . But you

25:47

know , at the end of the day , it's very easy to grab

25:49

onto these ideas because they're

25:51

not abstract , or at least they're minimally

25:53

abstract . And I

25:56

completely understand that because I fell

25:58

for the same thing . You know , I was a , I was

26:00

a vegan for 18 months and

26:03

still recovering now . You know

26:05

this is like six , six years down

26:07

the road . You

26:09

know it's , it's dangerous , these

26:11

, these ideas , and that's that's why I try

26:13

not to have . You know , I

26:15

don't really engage that much in the diet

26:17

side of things . You'll notice I

26:19

barely have any podcasts with people

26:22

who talk about diet and nutrition because fundamentally

26:25

I'm not all that interested . And

26:30

you know I think you know I've

26:32

stayed extremely quiet on the

26:34

on the issue of seed oils , primarily

26:37

because I

26:39

don't . They're not , it's not food . So

26:42

you know , if you asked me , you know , is

26:44

a chair healthy ? I'd say , well , it's

26:46

not food , so it's a bad question . I

26:48

see seed oils as the same thing . You

26:50

know cotton seed oil , canola oil . It's not food

26:52

, so it's not part of

26:54

the the conversation to me . And

26:58

you know you can find studies

27:00

that show increased

27:03

, increased intake of omega six

27:05

fatty acids relative to saturated fatty

27:07

acids . Has , you know , better

27:09

health outcomes . You know so what you

27:12

know ? No , none of the other environmental

27:15

conditions are taken into , are taking

27:17

into account at all . So you know , and

27:20

that's that's part of just having

27:22

a discerning eye when you're looking at these types

27:24

of things and I think that's one of the

27:26

great powers of

27:28

looking at health and

27:30

and wellness and beyond in

27:32

the way that we're sort of approaching it is

27:34

because it's such a broad

27:37

and encompassing view that you

27:39

you're it's much more difficult

27:41

to fall into bad patterns of thought when

27:44

you're trying to encapsulate it into with

27:46

everything else and trying to make it make sense

27:48

with all of these environmental conditions

27:50

. You sort of fortify yourself

27:52

against bad ideas and and ideology

27:55

, which is one of the reasons why

27:57

it's been so appealing to me , because I've just been burned

27:59

too many times by you know crappy

28:02

ideas that you know sound

28:04

great on an Instagram reel or a

28:06

TikTok , but you know they

28:08

simply it's just an , it's

28:11

just an ideology and yeah

28:13

, that's . That's what I really like about looking

28:15

at it . This this way is because you

28:18

think with logic instead

28:20

of just being captured by ideas

28:22

. Everything has to pass through the

28:24

litmus test of well , does this make sense

28:27

in the context of our evolutionary past

28:29

? Doesn't make sense in the context of

28:31

knowing how our cells work ? You

28:33

know how a mitochondria drives a proton

28:35

gradient , so much more

28:37

difficult to have to be captured

28:39

by bad ideas when you're

28:42

thinking about things at that level .

28:44

Yeah , 100% . And to

28:47

really kind of emphasize

28:50

the point , the implications

28:52

of of not accounting

28:54

for our light environment and this electromagnetic

28:57

environment , is that a lot of the

28:59

findings that are in published

29:01

literature with regard to dietary

29:03

interventions , they

29:05

they might not and probably not invalid

29:08

because they haven't controlled for the light environment

29:10

, they haven't controlled for changes

29:12

in the light environment , things like the

29:14

circadian variation in insulin

29:16

sensitivity and in leptin

29:19

sensitivity , and all these

29:21

very , very important

29:23

modifiers of our

29:25

physiology and our bodies and effect

29:28

of things like of how we process

29:30

food . They're not , they're not included , they're

29:32

not accounted for , they're not controlled for

29:34

. So it and I see

29:37

, I see people and

29:39

other kind of influences , and maybe

29:42

you know so-called leaders in the

29:44

, in the health space , you know , argue themselves

29:46

blue with each other and over

29:48

some nuance or

29:50

some specific idea , going back

29:52

and forth , and

29:54

you know both of them well . Maybe one of them is sitting

29:57

in natural light , the other one is under , you know

29:59

, an isolated LED bulb

30:01

and it's , you know , it's the Dunning-Kruger

30:03

effect written large . Because they simply , they

30:06

simply have no idea what they

30:08

don't know with regard to the

30:10

, the , the light environment , how that's

30:12

implicating things . And

30:15

it's not to sound arrogant . But you

30:18

know if you are kind of going to war

30:20

with someone over the calories and calories out model

30:22

and you know making

30:24

a hullabaloo and

30:27

really you know embarrassing self-advice , but

30:29

you know there's there's this big kind of

30:31

elephant in the room which is , and that

30:34

that person's potentially , you know , exposed

30:37

to artificial light 18 hours a day and

30:40

not respecting their circadian rhythm and they don't

30:42

understand that these has meaningful

30:44

effects on on these

30:46

biological processes that they're supposed

30:48

to be an expert on

30:50

.

30:51

Yeah , I mean it's

30:53

, it's fascinating because you know

30:55

, you look at , like the , the

30:58

hudza in Tanzania , and

31:00

you know they drink Coca-Cola . And you

31:02

know , every few weeks they'll get cornmeal

31:04

dropped off and they will . They will

31:06

stop hunting and gathering and they'll just eat

31:08

. You know what's been dropped off

31:10

, all these , all these grains they make like a porridge

31:13

and they love the stuff because it's , you know , it's

31:15

a quick carbs , it's , you know , it's tasty

31:17

. That's what we're designed to seek . And

31:20

you know you track their microbiome . You track all

31:22

their , all their . You know the

31:26

shifts in the microbes that make up

31:28

their gut and it doesn't change why

31:30

? Because they're they're

31:32

have a look at their environment . You know they're on the equator

31:34

, they're perfectly adapted

31:36

to their environment , they're living exactly where they're

31:38

evolved to . You know I'm not living where

31:40

I'm , where I'm evolved to . My mitochondria

31:43

. You know my mom is has

31:45

, you know , heritage

31:48

from the UK . That's where

31:50

my mitochondria are from , fundamentally . And

31:52

I'm living 33 degrees south

31:54

of the equator , in Sydney , which

31:56

, arguably , is probably better

31:59

for me to

32:01

to have that additional um

32:03

photonic energy where

32:06

I am . But yeah

32:08

, I mean all these things just don't get taken

32:10

into account and and nutrition is basically

32:13

a laughing stock in the field of scientific

32:15

research . Um , it's , it is

32:18

. It's just a laughing stock , and there are , for

32:20

reasons you just covered , but you

32:23

know there are very few nutrition

32:26

researchers who I take seriously . I think the only

32:28

one I really like is David Rubenheimer

32:31

. Um , and he has come up

32:33

. He's put forward the protein leverage hypothesis

32:35

, which is the closest thing you'll ever get to

32:37

a physical law when looking

32:39

at nutrition . It works all the way from

32:42

Drosophila to human beings . You

32:44

know , the , the um , the

32:47

nutritional geometry is exactly the same

32:49

, and the big takeaway from

32:51

his work is that , uh , we are designed

32:53

to prioritize protein because

32:56

we cannot store amino acids . We

32:58

can store fat , we can store carbohydrate

33:00

, we cannot store protein , we cannot store

33:02

amino acids . So we have to prioritize

33:05

amino acids . And you know it's very simple

33:07

. It's again this is we're not talking

33:09

scientifically here , we're just talking logically

33:12

. You don't have to be a PhD

33:14

researcher to get this . Um

33:16

, you know , when you prioritize protein , hey

33:18

guess what happens ? Satiety goes up , you

33:20

know , lean muscle goes up . Um , visceral

33:23

fat goes down , you know , um

33:25

, leptin and ghrelin get balanced

33:27

more , more evenly , and

33:30

this is just . Obviously . You

33:32

know it's nothing taking into account all

33:34

of the environmental considerations we were talking about

33:36

before . But

33:38

the point is , you know this is not science , this

33:40

is just logic at this point . And

33:43

you know , like you said , you got all these people arguing

33:45

online about . You know the science

33:48

, you know what study said , what you can

33:50

. You can find studies that you know . Do

33:53

any topic . You know we've got

33:55

um researchers

33:57

at Harvard saying fruit loops are healthy . If you're

33:59

going to say , um , you know , and

34:01

new , true , as far as nutrition research

34:04

goes , I like to stick to um

34:06

, you know , basically

34:08

the stuff that comes from the

34:10

ancestral diets . You know , I think Western

34:13

A prices work was really

34:15

informative for me . Um , I

34:18

don't know if you've read uh biochemical

34:20

individuality by Roger J Williams

34:22

. Uh , roger Williams discovered

34:24

vitamin B five and

34:26

his book biochemical individuality

34:28

is a must read if

34:30

you want to understand um

34:33

nutrition and why everyone's

34:35

needs are so different . Um

34:37

, you know , in that book there are diagrams

34:39

of . You know how different uh the

34:41

anatomy of uh different individuals

34:44

can be . You know even the way that

34:46

the vowels of the heart are sort

34:48

of wired around it can

34:50

be vastly different , even in siblings

34:52

. Um , you know colon length . You

34:54

know the length of the GI tract can be markedly

34:57

different between two individuals . And

35:00

you know , obviously someone who

35:02

has a shorter GI tract is going

35:04

to fare probably a little

35:06

bit worse with more fiber than someone

35:08

with a longer GI tract . And

35:11

I think none of these nuances get

35:13

taken into consideration , because we like to think

35:15

that , um , you know where , where this

35:17

you know average person and

35:19

of course , the , this hypothetical average

35:22

person in in a population has

35:24

one breast and one testicle . So I

35:26

would hardly , you know , use that as

35:28

a , as a gauge to see , to say what

35:30

you should be doing . Um , and

35:33

again , that's it . That's what makes

35:35

this way of looking at things

35:37

from this sort of top down . You know you want

35:39

to look at the most important things first . You're

35:41

going to get it's that 80 , 20 principle

35:44

. You know , if you can do the 20% of the most

35:46

important things , you'll cover 80%

35:48

of your bases and then you can start tweaking from

35:50

there . Um , and yeah

35:53

, that's I mean , don't get me started on nutrition

35:55

research , but um , yeah

35:57

, I mean , my thoughts are fundamentally

35:59

around nutrition . You know protein has

36:01

to be prioritized . That's

36:04

very clear . Um , don't

36:07

eat seed oils because it's not food , like

36:10

that's very simple . Don't eat food

36:12

products because they're not food . Um

36:14

, and I think beyond that . You

36:16

know , if you're doing all of the other things right

36:18

, you probably be pretty okay . Um

36:21

, I , you know , I'm not even against grains and

36:23

legumes and that kind of thing , like I eat everything

36:25

. Uh , I don't like , probably

36:28

just cause I've been burned too many times with diet and

36:30

dogma , but I try not to buy into

36:33

that . Um , but

36:35

you know , the reality is , if you're following

36:37

the basics , you know , just think logically . You

36:39

know , you read Westinay Price's book , you'll

36:42

understand straight away what human

36:44

beings are meant to be prioritizing . Roughly

36:47

Obviously , it differs around the world

36:49

depending on availability . But , um

36:51

, what if you can apply those same ways

36:53

of thinking ? You know , the , the

36:55

food sort of in some sense takes

36:58

care of itself . It's the other things

37:00

that matter . Um , quite a bit more

37:02

.

37:03

Yeah , and , and I'm just flagging the mitochondria , I want to

37:05

talk about them at some point

37:07

. I'm glad that you brought up the hudzer

37:09

and this , this um

37:11

idea that they're essentially eating all

37:14

kinds of foods that would be looked down upon

37:16

in in the kind of health

37:18

sphere , the dietary centric health influences

37:21

sphere , um , and they

37:23

would say that that's incompatible with the kind

37:25

of health that we're observing from these people . But

37:27

, uh , dr Jacques Cruz is famous for

37:30

saying that if you have those electromagnetic

37:32

uh humans dialed , if

37:34

you have , if someone's grounded , if they're living

37:36

in the latitude

37:38

and the solar yield that their mitochondria

37:41

are evolved for , uh

37:43

, if they are respecting the dark

37:45

cycle of the circadian rhythm , they

37:48

can eat , to quote him

37:50

, shit on a shingle and

37:52

still thrive . And , um , I

37:54

think recently one of the the

37:56

marathon runner who set some very

37:59

, very impressive record was he was eating oatmeal

38:02

. Um , the point was

38:04

not that the food

38:06

, the point was that that guy was again in

38:08

his niche , he was in the environment

38:10

that suited his uh biology and

38:12

his , his mitochondria . So the

38:15

and I'm just going to make a point , and I

38:17

have been making this point maybe for the past

38:19

um eight months because , uh

38:22

, I think it's important , and that is Dr

38:25

Paul Sardino , who started as a

38:27

pure carnivore and then eventually transitioned

38:29

to adding fruit and honey because he

38:31

suffered , um you know , adverse

38:34

um effects

38:36

on his serum , his electrolytes . He had symptoms

38:38

with um related to low electrode levels

38:41

and um perhaps even

38:43

flagging testosterone and androgen levels

38:45

, and he fixed those by adding

38:47

in local seasonal fruit

38:49

and honey . But what and

38:52

and I guess this was used as justification

38:54

in in the terms of his narrative for saying that

38:56

everyone should um eat

38:59

fruit and honey and we shouldn't be uh

39:01

doing ketogenic diet . And

39:03

that is is is ridiculous and it's a

39:05

complete generalization and ignoring the fact that

39:07

his move from a

39:09

higher latitude to the equatorial um

39:12

Costa Rica um prompted

39:15

and demanded that he include

39:17

those foods to to correctly

39:19

balance his , his electrolytes

39:21

and and to have insulin spiking

39:23

throughout the day , because it was uh

39:25

ancestrally and and evolutionarily appropriate

39:28

. So I really want to add that , because

39:30

this is the message that no one

39:32

is getting , and people are saying uh

39:34

kind of setting up their , their weapons

39:37

and they're digging their trenches along these dietary

39:39

uh wars and and

39:41

battle lines , when and no

39:43

, no , they're not making the distinction that

39:46

our electromagnetic environment

39:48

, our mitochondrial biology

39:50

, the , the latitude , the temperature , the environment

39:52

, the season is what is going to dictate

39:54

what , uh , is the optimal

39:56

diet , um , and appropriate

39:59

food inclusion for for you , yeah

40:01

.

40:03

I mean , try doing the Paul Saladino thing in Oslo

40:05

. You know , not going to happen , not going

40:07

to work . Um , first of all , I mean

40:09

, the weird thing is you can source all of those foods

40:11

, um , all throughout those northern

40:13

parts of the world , which is potentially

40:17

something we could talk about . Um

40:19

, but you know , I'll , I'll . I'll just share briefly

40:22

the thing that really broke . That

40:24

really um made

40:26

me stop being a vegan , and I was . I

40:28

was pretty hardcore into it , like I was hook

40:31

, line and sinker , and it was the

40:34

, the realization that you know . You have a look at

40:36

all these places over the world the closer you are

40:38

to the equator , generally speaking

40:40

, the less saturated fat they're eating , and

40:43

the further away you go , the more saturated fat

40:45

they're eating . Like , have a look at Italy . What

40:47

are they ? What fat do they use ? In Sicily

40:49

, you know , they use olive oil . What do they use

40:52

? In Rome ? They use butter . What do they use in

40:54

the north ? It's called the large belt . What do they use in the north ? They understood how they

40:56

use that . Have a look at India . All the vegetarians

40:58

are at the south . The further up you

41:00

go , you get ghee and the further up you

41:02

go they start cooking with animal fat . You know this

41:05

, it's built into their religion

41:07

and their culture there as well , like they understood

41:09

that the type

41:11

of fats that you eat change

41:13

the construction of

41:15

the membranes of the cells and why

41:18

that's important . I would love to

41:20

speak to people about why membrane

41:22

fluidity is important and how it changes

41:24

and why it has to

41:26

change with varying latitude

41:29

. But you know

41:31

, these cultures figured it out because they had

41:33

to . If they didn't figure this out , they

41:35

just would have died . If there was a vegan culture that

41:38

came about , you know , in

41:40

Finland , they would

41:42

no longer exist because they couldn't do it . So

41:45

all of these things were meticulously

41:48

figured out through evolution , because it had to

41:50

be by definition . And that's

41:53

why , as soon as I started to realize

41:55

that this stuff is like

41:57

nature decides , nature

42:00

decides . You know , we don't really we

42:02

have a saying it now because of our big fat brains

42:04

, but that's not really helping

42:06

us in any way . And

42:08

that was really the point where I had to sit back and

42:11

go wow , this , this whole vegan story , just

42:13

does not make sense . It simply doesn't

42:15

make sense . And

42:17

I've been teaching a class to

42:22

a group of , you know , 20 year olds about

42:24

health and wellness . And I

42:26

show them a picture in Norway

42:28

, where they have the annual

42:30

cod harvest and it's

42:33

just tens of thousands of cod

42:35

hung up to dry

42:37

on these massive racks . And

42:39

you know , I use that as a

42:42

point to say , like , nature decides

42:44

what they did . Because without

42:46

the cod they didn't have enough UV

42:48

radiation to synthesize vitamin D . There

42:51

literally would be no cultures

42:53

that far north without

42:55

seafood . It could not happen

42:57

. And this connection

43:00

that they have and of course , at the time they probably

43:02

didn't know exactly why they were

43:04

doing that and why that was so important , but

43:06

they figured it out . And I

43:09

think the fact that they figured it out but

43:11

didn't know precisely why

43:13

is actually probably a good thing

43:15

, because have a look at what we've done . I

43:17

mean , back when Ricketts was a big

43:19

problem , we knew it could be cured and

43:21

prevented with cod liver oil and

43:24

we didn't know why . But we didn't need to

43:26

know why it worked . So

43:28

we used it and because

43:30

, like I said , because of our big fat

43:32

brain , we wanted to know more . We

43:35

wanted to know precisely what it was . So instead

43:37

, eventually we figured out you

43:39

know it was vitamin D that was

43:41

the anti-Rikittic factor of the cod

43:43

liver oil . So we isolated

43:46

it , and then they give vitamin D , but

43:48

of course you know we've

43:50

missed the forest for the trees here . You

43:52

know the cod liver oil itself had

43:55

the complement of vitamin A in

43:57

it as well , and DHA and

43:59

EPA . So

44:02

I almost think our

44:04

desire to know precisely

44:06

what is going on at all time is actually a detriment

44:08

to us , because we zoom

44:11

in too far and we can

44:13

no longer even understand what it is that we're

44:15

trying to figure out anymore , and

44:17

I think that's why , looking back at

44:20

cultures that

44:22

knew but didn't know , that they knew

44:24

precisely . I remember

44:26

reading I

44:29

think it was Synchronicity

44:31

by Carl Jung , and he wrote about

44:33

his visit to an African tribe . And

44:36

every morning , right before the Sun comes

44:38

up , they all get up and they spit

44:40

into their hands and they put them out to the rising

44:43

Sun , and of course it

44:45

was a superstition that they

44:47

had to do that to make

44:49

sure the Sun would rise the next day , otherwise

44:52

the Sun would get angry at them . Now

44:54

I think they're a lot smarter than we are because

44:57

they

45:00

somehow realise that that had to be ingrained

45:02

in their culture for them to be able

45:04

to operate optimally , and

45:07

the fact that we

45:09

know more

45:11

than them in quotes . But don't

45:13

get that right . I think is a real

45:16

sign that sometimes it's better to

45:18

just know that it works but not to

45:20

ask specifically why , but just trust

45:22

that nature got it right , because

45:24

nature did get it right by definition .

45:27

It's that cultural evolved

45:29

practice which I prefer too often and

45:31

I think Western Price had various

45:33

examples of that that he noticed in the

45:35

Solomon Islands they had rituals where

45:37

the tribe would bang a drum at dawn

45:40

, everyone would get up , everyone would essentially

45:42

been dancing and humming as

45:45

they watched the sunrise and you

45:48

can analyse it with this scientific

45:50

lens that you and I are talking about and they're

45:52

grounded and getting morning

45:55

circadian programming in their eye . They are

45:57

humming , they are getting

45:59

good activation of

46:02

their pulmonary system , everything

46:05

that you can tickle the boxes of an ideal

46:07

morning routine , from health optimisation

46:09

, blogger or advice

46:12

, and they're nailing . But the point

46:14

is , as you are so eloquently said

46:16

, cameron , is that they worked that out and

46:18

there is a agree . There's certain intelligence

46:20

of getting to the right answer

46:22

without knowing the details . And I

46:25

think if you've ever read the Simtaleb

46:27

, he talks about Fat Tony , and

46:29

Fat Tony is a Brooklyn , new

46:31

York character who has

46:34

no formal school education but he's

46:37

extremely successful because he's worked

46:40

out , through a process of cultural

46:42

Darwinism , the

46:44

way to thrive and to succeed . So

46:46

I really think that the siloed approach

46:49

of modern science and modern

46:51

specialists really gets in the way and you

46:53

look at what people like Da Vinci achieved

46:56

, and they were generalists that they were

46:58

. He was a generalist , he was able to span

47:00

these domains and therefore

47:03

draw connections , see patterns that

47:06

no one else was seeing . And look you

47:08

can look at someone like Dr Jarku's . Same

47:10

thing and the more I

47:12

think ability that we have to

47:14

see across these and

47:16

through these , these

47:18

individual specialties , that the better

47:21

we have we're more likely to be able to see the whole elephant

47:23

rather than just , you know , hold the trunk and

47:25

say that it's a tree , hold the tail and

47:27

say that it's that it's

47:30

a tree I am

47:32

. I also wanted

47:34

to get your thoughts , and I

47:36

think you really nailed

47:38

it with regard to that

47:40

description of of kind

47:42

of access to food and what's local

47:45

, and I've come to the personal thought and maybe

47:47

I get your thoughts on this that the

47:49

reason why carnivore diet is seems to be so

47:51

effective for people in the modern age

47:53

is because they're so disconnected

47:55

from their this environmental

47:58

and electromagnetic niche

48:00

that we evolved in that

48:02

and which , and the circadian cycle

48:04

is regulating things like gut permeability . It's

48:06

regulating and

48:08

, in terror , site or gut cell turnover

48:10

, and my

48:12

thought is that the further away you

48:15

are from your natural environment with

48:17

regards to circadian rhythm and light environment

48:19

, and the

48:21

more that carnivore is essentially

48:23

facultatively required because

48:26

it is the least and to genically

48:28

provocative from a food toxin

48:30

point of view . And if your environment

48:33

is so unsuitable then

48:35

you essentially need to be held together and

48:37

by by the

48:39

lowest provost , lowest

48:41

toxicity diet and again

48:43

, not to and I'm one of the

48:45

biggest advocates of carnivore because it is such

48:47

a powerful healing modality , especially

48:50

in the first months of healing

48:52

severe metabolic or immune disease . But

48:54

the point is that , and if someone

48:56

has to be maintained or that protocol To

48:59

me , that is telling me that they're disrespecting

49:01

their light environment , they're disrespecting their

49:03

mitochondrial haplotype , they're disrespecting

49:06

their the grounding and everything

49:08

else that we've just talked about . So , yeah , what

49:10

? What are your thoughts on that ?

49:12

Yeah , I mean I , I wholeheartedly

49:15

agree with that . I think , you

49:17

know it makes makes me laugh All

49:28

day long and it doesn't seem to bother me and

49:30

you know I've had gut issues my entire

49:32

life but I really think that

49:35

the big changes are

49:38

these ones that we were talking

49:40

about before and you know , I think

49:42

there are a lot of people out there who really

49:44

benefit from it , and I think part of

49:46

that is just the she nutrition

49:48

you get by eating meat . I mean , it

49:50

is unmatched , like how many people

49:53

are not getting an adequate amount of

49:55

zinc , for instance , and then

49:57

you start eating meat every

49:59

day . Hey , all of a sudden

50:01

you've got one of the most critical nutrients

50:03

in enough abundance to get stuff done

50:05

, and

50:13

that's why you see this really fast

50:16

. Well , sometimes

50:18

not not fast , but generally

50:20

you see a quick

50:23

improvement in

50:25

health when you , when you even not

50:27

even going carnival but just consuming more

50:29

meat than normal , I

50:32

think , just purely from a nutrition

50:35

aspect , you're probably just getting more and

50:38

that , more that getting you up to an

50:41

evolutionarily appropriate level of a

50:43

lot of these ones that tend to be missing , even

50:45

, even things that aren't nutrients , like Colleen

50:48

, for instance , you

50:51

know , sort of like an honorary

50:53

B vitamin , but one that seems to be left

50:55

out a lot . You know there are a lot of different

50:57

things in meat that just generally are missing

50:59

from most people , so I think that's a big that's

51:02

a big part of it . I think I know you

51:04

you just uploaded your episode with Gabbo

51:06

and you've spoken to yeah

51:12

, I think this is another big part of it . I

51:14

mean , I

51:17

am well

51:19

, we'll get on to . Actually let's let's talk

51:22

about a little bit about deuterium , just

51:24

because I have a bit of a personal story with it that

51:26

that I haven't shared before . But

51:29

after starting

51:32

to read Gabbo's work a bit more seriously

51:34

, last year a good

51:36

friend of mine told me that

51:38

his father's bladder cancer had come

51:40

back and it was invading his kidneys

51:42

and they wanted to take his

51:45

kidney out , one of his kidneys out and

51:47

he knows that I'm into all of this cookie

51:49

stuff . So he said you know they

51:51

want to take it out in six weeks . What do you think we should do

51:54

? I said I'm going to get you

51:56

some deuterium depleted water and

51:58

you know I emailed Gabbo

52:00

and he got back to me straight away . He

52:02

is just , I mean , being

52:07

in the position that we are . It's quite overwhelming

52:09

how much of

52:11

these guests' lives they

52:14

give to us , and I emailed

52:16

him asking him for advice

52:18

about what to do with my friend's dad . And he

52:20

emailed me back straight away and

52:22

said here's what you need to do for six

52:24

weeks . Let me know how it goes

52:26

. We got him doing

52:28

a Deuterium Depletion protocol and

52:31

he told the doctors and they were

52:33

like you're crazy , you

52:36

have no idea what you're doing . You're going to make things really

52:38

, really bad . And

52:40

he said no , no , this is what

52:43

I want to do . I don't want you to take my kidney . Anyway

52:46

, he demanded they go in and check again and they

52:48

said we're not doing that . And he demanded

52:50

. So they eventually agreed and

52:52

six weeks after doing a Deuterium

52:54

Depletion protocol , they went back

52:56

in and they said it was a miracle , there was nothing

52:59

there to biopsy and

53:05

it was the best moment I've had , doing

53:09

all of this stuff , so worth it . But

53:12

it also made me quite angry . Why

53:14

am I figuring this out ? Why

53:18

is some kid who

53:21

doesn't have a PhD , doesn't have any

53:23

real science background , doesn't

53:26

know anything ? Why am I the one to

53:29

help make this happen ? And the doctors are like well

53:31

, it's just a miracle . It

53:36

was such a great moment , but at the same time it

53:38

was very bittersweet , but I

53:40

think that just highlights the importance of

53:42

how tightly regulated

53:45

our bodies are . I'm

53:48

going to assume that your listeners know

53:50

the basics of Deuterium and

53:53

, essentially

53:56

, the ratio of Deuterium to Hydrogen

53:58

in the body , although

54:01

it seems like it can't make that much of a difference

54:03

. You're thinking one in every 6,600

54:06

Hydrogens is a Deuterium . How

54:08

can that possibly have an effect ? But

54:11

nature doesn't work in a linear fashion . Biology

54:14

is not a linear machine and

54:17

this Deuterium factor

54:19

is a really big problem because

54:22

a Coca-Cola has like 200 parts

54:24

per million , whereas the water here

54:26

in Sydney is like 152 parts

54:29

per million , and

54:32

carbohydrate foods concentrate more

54:34

Deuterium . And arguably

54:37

, evolutionary diets were

54:39

much lower in Deuterium content

54:41

than they are today , and

54:44

I think that's one of the big benefits

54:46

of eating more meat is not only

54:48

are you bringing in fewer Deuterium

54:50

relative to Hydrogen , you're also

54:53

bringing in the enough

54:55

building block in

54:58

the form of particularly saturated

55:00

fats , which we know produce more

55:02

mitochondrial Deuterium-depleted

55:04

matrix water . We've known

55:06

this for probably

55:08

like 80 years . I think I saw the

55:11

paper in Nature from like 1940s

55:13

. We've known this

55:15

for a very long time that saturated

55:17

fats make the mitochondria

55:19

more hydrated , and not

55:22

only that , it's hydrated in the best possible

55:24

way , because it's actually hydrogen . It's

55:26

not D2O , it is Hydrogen

55:29

. I don't

55:31

even think we've scratched the surface of why Deuterium

55:33

is so important in biology

55:36

and obviously we need it . We

55:38

can't grow without it . It's very important

55:40

, but keeping it in the right ratio

55:43

. I've

55:46

become much more convinced that that's

55:48

a really , really

55:50

critically important part of

55:54

this story that we're telling , because I think

55:56

it fundamentally connects back to the

55:58

light story , because just like there's

56:00

a latitude gradient with UV light , there's

56:02

a latitude gradient with Deuterium on the planet . So

56:05

and I don't think this has been

56:07

proved , I'd love to know but I

56:10

suspect it seems logical to

56:12

me that the

56:14

light that's present on the equator helps

56:17

balance the elevated

56:19

Deuterium content of their food and drink

56:21

. So

56:23

I mean it makes sense to me that the more

56:25

sunlight that you're getting , the more you're giving

56:27

your body the opportunity to balance that DH

56:29

ratio . And I think that's super

56:33

, super important because it's at

56:35

the foundational level . I mean you can't really

56:37

get more foundational than protons , neutrons

56:39

and electrons and

56:41

that is fundamentally what

56:44

the body is built on . So

56:46

I think that's another big reason of why

56:48

these low-carb-ish

56:51

diets tend to really do

56:53

well . But

56:55

you know I do have concerns with diets

56:58

that are purely meat and I think , just

57:00

from a logical point of view , you

57:03

have to watch things like potassium , magnesium and

57:05

calcium . You know they're

57:07

all important and you know they can

57:09

be difficult to get in

57:11

the right quantities and of course you're

57:14

taking you have to take into the account

57:16

that into account

57:18

that you know you're not living in an

57:20

environment that your ancestors did

57:22

and you know

57:24

sometimes , like

57:26

you said , this is probably exactly

57:28

why Paul made his shift and

57:31

did it quite discreetly as well , if

57:34

I'm correct , which

57:36

I think happens a lot in the health space people

57:39

not telling their

57:41

audience that they're not doing well and

57:43

just pretending that it's all fine on the outside

57:45

. But

57:48

yeah , I think that that's another

57:50

thing to consider and you know I

57:52

worry about people who you know can't have

57:54

a tomato without getting a reaction Like , clearly

57:57

that's clearly something's going wrong there and

57:59

you know , ideally what you'd be able to do is you'd

58:01

be able to eat , you know all sorts of things and

58:03

not have reactions to it . I

58:05

understand that there are people out there who you

58:07

know that's going to be a much longer

58:09

journey , but I think it

58:12

speaks to the fact that you

58:14

know , maybe there's something deeper

58:16

going on that needs to be addressed . If you can't have

58:18

an eggplant or you can't , you know , have

58:21

a piece of sourdough bread , perhaps there's

58:23

something a bit deeper going on , and

58:25

you know . Touching on the gluten thing

58:27

, again it makes me laugh because I suspect

58:30

gluten is one of a countless number

58:32

of things that modulate intestinal permeability

58:34

. You know , like one

58:36

of my favorite papers talks

58:39

about how we basically know less than

58:41

1% of the molecules that are in food . Like

58:44

we just don't know what all these molecules

58:47

do and it seems

58:49

absolutely ridiculous to me

58:51

to think that gluten is the only one that does

58:53

that sort of thing with the intestines , with

58:56

those gap junctions . You know , modulating

58:58

intestinal permeability . I suspect all foods

59:01

do that to some degree , in different ways

59:03

, and we just don't understand why that

59:05

is or the consequences of that .

59:07

Yeah , and my personal opinion is

59:09

that , when it comes to gluten and

59:11

this is what mutual guests , dr Sethanie

59:13

Seneff has talked about to both of us is that it's

59:15

probably the glyphosate and the glyphosate contamination

59:18

of these foods that

59:20

is really acting as a force

59:22

multiplier to inhibit and

59:24

your intestinal

59:27

permeability and disrupt

59:29

the gut microbiome and that's

59:31

kind of really making a massive difference . But

59:34

the again to emphasize , it's

59:37

really a healing protocol . That , I think

59:39

, is the biggest reason why

59:41

everyone benefits on carnivore and I really

59:43

treat it like that . I think it's a

59:45

therapeutic healing protocol . But

59:48

we want to get people back to a

59:50

state where they don't form a heap

59:52

if they eat , as you said , a

59:54

piece of fermented food or

59:56

they eat a piece of

59:58

, not encouraging it . But , as

1:00:02

you rightly said , there should

1:00:04

be a reason why we should

1:00:06

be able to tolerate a little bit of something

1:00:08

else . While it's not optimal , it shouldn't

1:00:10

send us to , you know , in bed for

1:00:12

two days , which is what it sounds like

1:00:14

it does to a lot of people , so being held together

1:00:17

with sticky tape and bubblegum . I'm so glad

1:00:19

you brought up deuterium and I really agree . I

1:00:21

think the benefit of low-carb and carnivore

1:00:23

is the fact that it's a deuterium-depleted

1:00:25

diet , probably number

1:00:27

one . And second , it's providing that

1:00:30

surplus of micronutrients that

1:00:32

you talked about and really this idea

1:00:34

that people are coasting on a subclinical

1:00:38

or in some cases clinical but

1:00:40

mostly subclinical micronutrient

1:00:43

deficiency and they've got , they're having rate limiting

1:00:45

enzymatic steps in their

1:00:47

body that are not being

1:00:49

met when they simply don't have the correct B-vitamin

1:00:52

, trace mineral , whatever it is . So simply

1:00:54

putting someone on a very , very high meat

1:00:56

diet , you're filling in all those gaps

1:00:58

so that there's no deficiencies that

1:01:00

are essentially slowing

1:01:03

down the system on a rate limiting point of view . The

1:01:06

interesting anecdote that you shared

1:01:08

about your friend's father I suspect that

1:01:10

they would have re-imaged him and found that

1:01:12

the primary or whatever

1:01:14

the tumor they were looking at had shrunken

1:01:16

. And for those who are unfamiliar

1:01:19

, I would really encourage listening to my episode

1:01:21

with Dr Gabor , sean Lai and listened

1:01:23

to Cameron's episode with him and he's

1:01:25

done a couple podcasts recently . But

1:01:28

the fascinating implication is that reducing

1:01:31

the concentration of deuterium in the body with

1:01:33

a deuterium-depleted water protocol is

1:01:35

something you can do in addition

1:01:38

to it doesn't replace a

1:01:40

standard oncological therapy , and

1:01:42

I really want to emphasize that point no one's advocating .

1:01:45

I will just add that was the only

1:01:47

thing we changed . I didn't speak at all to

1:01:49

him about changing his diet . It's a

1:01:51

relatively standard diet . The only thing

1:01:53

that was changed was the water . That's it

1:01:56

.

1:01:56

Interesting .

1:01:57

And that was the progress that was made . So imagine

1:01:59

what you could do by really maxing

1:02:02

out living

1:02:04

as circadian-friendly as possible

1:02:06

, getting all the light that you need

1:02:08

we know that extends lifespan

1:02:10

, even with people who have terminal cancer

1:02:13

Getting great

1:02:15

sleep , eating great food all

1:02:17

of those things on top of

1:02:19

just getting the deuterium ratio right .

1:02:22

And let's talk about that because it comes down to mitochondria

1:02:25

. And in my episode with Thomas Segar he described

1:02:27

people who were having their

1:02:30

progression of their various cancers who

1:02:32

is basically slowed down by a practice

1:02:35

of regular ice bathing . So

1:02:37

what ? I think

1:02:39

it would be difficult for someone

1:02:41

to make sense of this unless they are putting

1:02:43

the mitochondria at the center of their disease

1:02:46

model , which is what you're advocating

1:02:48

for and I'm advocating for . And suddenly

1:02:50

it all makes it starts to make sense . And the

1:02:53

hypothesis or in science we have hypotheses

1:02:56

, we try and disprove them with observed

1:02:58

findings . But the strength

1:03:01

of your hypothesis is how well

1:03:03

it can explain the observed phenomena . And

1:03:05

if you can put all

1:03:07

these pieces together and realize that you can

1:03:10

heal people . You can reverse cancer

1:03:12

or slope cancer progression with fasting

1:03:14

, with sunlight exposure , with a

1:03:17

low deuterium diet and water , with

1:03:19

cold exposure . And you

1:03:21

can explain that because they're all optimizing

1:03:24

mitochondrial function and we know that cancer

1:03:26

is a mitochondrial problem at its core

1:03:28

. So maybe talk about mitochondria

1:03:31

as you think about them

1:03:33

and how

1:03:35

it's relevant to what we've just mentioned .

1:03:38

Yes , so I mean mitochondria , are this absolutely

1:03:41

fascinating thing ? Probably

1:03:43

the endosymbiotic

1:03:46

event probably likely only took

1:03:48

place once . It is

1:03:50

that unlikely and

1:03:53

there are people out there who suggest that

1:03:55

there will . In

1:03:57

the entire universe there's a chance that life

1:03:59

like us doesn't exist , because that

1:04:02

chance of an

1:04:04

archaea swallowing an

1:04:06

old purple bacteria and then then

1:04:08

them able to live symbiotically and

1:04:11

reproduce , that event

1:04:13

is so statistically unlikely

1:04:15

that it probably only ever happened once

1:04:17

. And that is where all multicellular

1:04:20

life came from . You know , it

1:04:22

is phenomenal to think about

1:04:24

that endosymbiotic event

1:04:26

is the most important thing that

1:04:29

happened in life

1:04:31

on this planet because every multicellular

1:04:33

organism came from that event . And

1:04:37

if , interestingly , if you took all

1:04:40

of the melanin , all of the heme , all of the pigment

1:04:42

out of the body , we would be purple

1:04:44

, we would glow purple because

1:04:46

our mitochondria are old purple

1:04:49

bacteria and we would glow

1:04:51

purple . And we do glow purple , it's

1:04:53

just we can't see it because it's so

1:04:55

faint and we have all of these other pigments on

1:04:57

us as well . But

1:05:00

fundamentally , the ability

1:05:02

to , inside the

1:05:04

cell , drive a proton gradient

1:05:06

and essentially create a battery which

1:05:08

is separating the positive and negative

1:05:10

charge and then using that potential to

1:05:13

spin the ATPAs to create

1:05:15

energy . There's

1:05:17

arguments to say that that's not how energy

1:05:20

is created , but bear with me , I'll stick with

1:05:22

. I'll stick with ATPAs the energy

1:05:24

currency , and we can maybe flesh that out later but

1:05:26

that that ability to drive a proton

1:05:29

gradient allowed life

1:05:31

to depart those deep

1:05:34

, sulfurous hydrothermal

1:05:36

vents where the hydrothermal

1:05:38

vent was actually an analog of

1:05:40

what we have in the mitochondria Now . It the

1:05:42

those vents drove a proton gradient

1:05:44

and allowed those life forms to

1:05:46

basically have an external mitochondria

1:05:49

. The fact that we have them in every single

1:05:52

cell , except our red blood cells as

1:05:54

far as I'm aware there's

1:05:56

always an exception but the fact that

1:05:58

we have those in every

1:06:00

single one of our cells , and it is the

1:06:02

defining factor of multicellular

1:06:05

life , it's the defining factor

1:06:07

. You can't move past that . Like

1:06:09

I said before , you should be the first thing we focus

1:06:12

on , because it is what sets us apart

1:06:14

. And the mitochondria

1:06:16

are fundamentally receptive

1:06:19

to the things in our environment

1:06:21

. I think they're very receptive to

1:06:23

non native electromagnetic fields . They're

1:06:26

certainly very receptive to

1:06:28

light , and I think a

1:06:32

lot of that is coming from near infrared

1:06:34

light interacting with cytochrome C

1:06:36

, which is where water is made . It's kind

1:06:38

of weird to think about that too . Mitochondria

1:06:40

make water . I think if you went around

1:06:43

on the street and you said to people , do do

1:06:45

human cells make water ? Do they

1:06:47

make H2O ? People would say , well

1:06:49

, no , that's ridiculous , we have to drink water . But

1:06:52

of course we do generate H2O

1:06:55

and we do that at cytochrome C , which is

1:06:57

this part of the respiratory

1:06:59

complex that seems to interact

1:07:02

quite strongly with the

1:07:04

wavelengths of light that are in the red

1:07:06

and near infrared and that

1:07:08

is what's helping to drive that proton

1:07:11

gradient , which is why

1:07:13

red light therapy seems to do

1:07:15

so well for almost any

1:07:17

condition that it's used on . I

1:07:20

think the fact that red light therapy seems

1:07:22

to benefit the function

1:07:24

of mitochondria is just

1:07:26

a sign that we are no longer

1:07:29

living in enough natural

1:07:31

sunlight to satisfy our need and

1:07:33

, much like someone with a complete

1:07:35

zinc deficiency would benefit from a zinc

1:07:37

supplement , someone with an absolute

1:07:40

red and near infrared deficiency benefits

1:07:42

from a red light panel . I

1:07:45

think it's just a symptom of the fact that we're

1:07:47

not living in the sun enough

1:07:49

. I'm not saying red light therapy

1:07:51

is bad I think it can be really , really

1:07:53

useful but what

1:07:55

I'm saying is that it seems to just be

1:07:58

a sign that it's

1:08:01

a symptom of us living indoors , the same way

1:08:03

that high vitamin

1:08:05

D is a proxy marker

1:08:08

for living outdoors , and that's why it seems

1:08:10

to be so . That's

1:08:12

why it correlates so well with better health outcomes

1:08:14

, whereas when you give vitamin D

1:08:17

supplements you don't see those health outcomes

1:08:19

. I think it's the same thing here with

1:08:21

the red light . The reason it's making

1:08:23

the mitochondria work really well is because

1:08:25

they are begging for it . They're saying

1:08:28

please , let me out in the sun all day because

1:08:30

I need it . I've evolved outside

1:08:32

all day . I

1:08:34

need the near-infrared all day and

1:08:37

when you're inside all day , you're fundamentally

1:08:39

gasping for that because the mitochondria

1:08:42

aren't flicking over , they're not

1:08:44

driving that proton gradient and over time

1:08:46

, as we age , as

1:08:49

the header applies

1:08:51

me of the mitochondria increases

1:08:53

, which is essentially saying that the

1:08:56

mitochondria gradually

1:08:58

look less and less like mitochondria . They

1:09:01

sort of lose their form and they become

1:09:03

leaky , and I think there's

1:09:06

a very good argument to be had that aging is

1:09:08

a direct

1:09:10

consequence of leaky mitochondria

1:09:12

. Forget leaky gut . Leaky

1:09:15

mitochondria is the big problem and

1:09:19

I think the

1:09:21

light story with mitochondria

1:09:23

is fundamentally connected to that . But

1:09:26

also mitochondria are filled

1:09:29

with water and if

1:09:31

you have a look I mean this is why I love Bob

1:09:33

Fosbury's work so much . Have a look at the water

1:09:35

absorption bands . You know you

1:09:37

have all of these really high peaks of

1:09:39

absorption in water in the

1:09:42

infrared range , not so much in the near-infrared

1:09:44

but beyond the near-infrared into the infrared

1:09:46

. That's when you see , water is the primary

1:09:49

chromophore of the body

1:09:51

, it's the primary light absorber of the body

1:09:53

and these long wavelengths

1:09:55

, I suspect , are doing

1:09:57

crazy things to the hydrogen

1:10:00

bonding networks in water . They are

1:10:02

creating coherent domains and changing

1:10:05

the structure of water

1:10:07

and making it do

1:10:09

work essentially . I don't know

1:10:11

if you've read Gerald Pollock's

1:10:13

book Cells , gels and the Engines of Life

1:10:15

.

1:10:16

No , I haven't read that one .

1:10:18

So everyone talks about the fourth

1:10:20

phase of water , which is a phenomenal book , but

1:10:22

to me Cells , gels and the Engines of Life

1:10:24

is the best . It's way

1:10:27

better than the fourth phase of water because what it

1:10:29

explains is how

1:10:31

our bodies basically

1:10:34

shift the structure of water from

1:10:36

bulk water H2O to

1:10:38

this crystalline water to

1:10:40

actually do work . And there's great

1:10:42

diagrams in there explaining how things

1:10:44

like mitosis , the protein

1:10:46

filaments that do the cytokinesis

1:10:48

in mitosis are fundamentally

1:10:51

driven by where the charge

1:10:54

is on the water around the proteins

1:10:56

themselves . So the body's

1:10:58

ability to shift between bulk and

1:11:01

structured water is super

1:11:03

important because that's what's doing the work

1:11:05

, that's what's creating these protein

1:11:07

folding , because at every

1:11:10

site of a protein it's completely

1:11:12

surrounded by water and depending

1:11:14

on what the charges on that water , depending

1:11:16

on what the charges are around that protein

1:11:20

molecule , it folds differently . And

1:11:22

I think that's where a lot of people

1:11:25

get a bit tripped up , in my view , with the

1:11:27

whole water story is that they think everything needs

1:11:29

to be structured all the time , and

1:11:31

I think what it is is the body needs

1:11:33

to be able to shift between different

1:11:36

crystal and structures , different bond angles

1:11:38

, and it goes back to May 1 Hoh's work

1:11:41

, which is a little bit above my head when

1:11:43

I was trying to go through her work because she's

1:11:45

very hardcore and that book was very difficult

1:11:48

to read . But I think the bond angles

1:11:50

, the structure in the water itself

1:11:52

and being able to shift between those

1:11:54

two is actually what's more

1:11:56

important than just having structured water

1:11:59

. Structured water , structured water all the time . And

1:12:01

I think what is shifting the

1:12:04

water in the mitochondria and in the cytosol

1:12:06

and all the way through the extracellular matrix

1:12:08

and the ground substance is everything

1:12:11

from the DC current that's running

1:12:14

through the body to the electromagnetic

1:12:16

fields that were exposed to the light that

1:12:18

were exposed to , and I think that's shifting

1:12:21

the water in the mitochondria and doing lots

1:12:23

of different things that we would consider

1:12:25

work done in the cell

1:12:27

. I think a lot of

1:12:29

it's done by the water's

1:12:32

capacity to shift and do all of

1:12:34

these different things . It's like a shape shifter and

1:12:36

it's where it ends up , is dependent

1:12:39

on all of these other environmental

1:12:42

influences and that's really

1:12:45

where I think life sort of coalesces

1:12:48

is this interaction between water and

1:12:51

light and that's

1:12:53

what we see in the mitochondria . The mitochondria makes

1:12:55

light , makes water and accepts

1:12:57

light to do so , and

1:13:00

maybe that's a bit oversimplified

1:13:02

, but those are just some of

1:13:04

the things that were running through my head . I

1:13:07

don't often get the chance to ramble about mitochondria

1:13:10

, but , yeah , you can see how passionate

1:13:12

I am about them .

1:13:14

Yeah , it's a great description

1:13:16

camera , and anyone who's followed my work

1:13:18

and has listened to my Jack Crews series would

1:13:21

hear what Jack said was very

1:13:23

, very similar to what you've described . It's essentially

1:13:26

the same idea , in said differently

1:13:28

this idea that the

1:13:30

life is . You know , the stage

1:13:32

is water but the actors are

1:13:35

light or vice versa . I can't remember which

1:13:37

way he put it , but essentially

1:13:40

they're so integrally

1:13:42

linked that you , if

1:13:45

you mess with the

1:13:47

light signals , then , as you've

1:13:49

mentioned , the destructuring water that is

1:13:51

probably having all these incredibly

1:13:53

complex effects on regulating

1:13:56

our biological

1:13:58

processes gets disrupted . And

1:14:00

similarly , if you have things that are

1:14:02

disrupting the water and Joe

1:14:05

Pollock has shown things like glyphosate , the herbicide

1:14:07

glyphosate disrupts that structuring

1:14:10

and absence of

1:14:12

infrared light from the sun is

1:14:14

going to interfere with that . Anything that disrupts

1:14:16

the mitochondrial function and prevents them from

1:14:18

making water is also going to disrupt

1:14:20

that , and then people get sick . So

1:14:22

it's . It is really

1:14:25

so fascinating because we're taking

1:14:27

it down a level . We are analyzing

1:14:29

and health on

1:14:31

such a more fundamental level than you

1:14:34

know what unique nutrients are

1:14:36

in this organ meat Again , not saying that that's not important

1:14:39

, but this is so

1:14:41

much more fundamental . It

1:14:43

links and you mentioned Professor Robert

1:14:46

Fosbury , and he is has been doing

1:14:48

a lot of work on light

1:14:50

, especially with regard to mitochondria and

1:14:53

infrared light . But Scott Zimmerman , who

1:14:55

you mentioned as well is , is a very , very

1:14:57

interesting researcher who is doing the same

1:14:59

, talking about the same , similar things

1:15:01

. Both of those are

1:15:04

have really shown us and emphasized

1:15:06

how important infrared light is for melatonin

1:15:08

production in the mitochondria

1:15:10

, and this idea that it's

1:15:13

there , the if

1:15:15

you think about the mitochondria as an engine

1:15:17

, the coolant is , that is , the melatonin

1:15:19

which is mopping up all these reactive oxygen

1:15:21

species that get generated as

1:15:24

a function of the mitochondria is normal

1:15:26

action , but the red light and

1:15:28

the infrared light is like the lubrication

1:15:31

and that's helping the ATP

1:15:33

a spin . So when

1:15:35

you , taking this all the way back to the beginning of the

1:15:37

conversation , when you change

1:15:39

the reality of

1:15:41

our existence

1:15:43

, which was outdoors the

1:15:45

whole time during 12

1:15:47

hours of daylight , if you're on the equate root and

1:15:50

if you put that person will put someone

1:15:52

inside under an artificial

1:15:54

blue LED , you are

1:15:56

removing one of the most critical

1:15:58

nutrient light nutrients , which I like to call it which

1:16:01

is in for a light and and

1:16:03

you know we can blame that on on on

1:16:06

food , but it's so obviously a

1:16:08

deficiency of of a

1:16:10

nutrient that is non , it's

1:16:12

a non visible . You know wavelength

1:16:15

of electromagnetic radiation

1:16:17

?

1:16:19

Yeah , I mean I

1:16:21

confess my love for Bob

1:16:23

and Scott . I think they

1:16:25

are just some

1:16:27

of the most inspirational guys

1:16:30

and you know they've kept

1:16:32

in contact with me even though they , you know

1:16:34

they didn't have to . But these are guys who have

1:16:36

come completely out of their own

1:16:38

fields , out of their own fields

1:16:40

of expertise and , in

1:16:42

my eyes , completely revolutionized the

1:16:44

field . I mean I would probably consider

1:16:47

Scott the melatonin expert in the world

1:16:49

right now and this guy

1:16:51

is , as humble as it gets , completely

1:16:53

outside of his field . And

1:16:57

same with Stephanie Senna . I mean she's a computer

1:16:59

scientist , for goodness sake , and she's the leading

1:17:01

she's really carrying

1:17:03

the torch of with

1:17:05

probably people like Kerry Gillum

1:17:07

of Rachel

1:17:10

Carson . You know I just finished

1:17:12

reading Silent Spring . You

1:17:14

know she'll go out and say go out

1:17:16

and say talks . Yeah , like

1:17:19

all of these guys have come way outside

1:17:22

their field and they stress the

1:17:24

importance of interdisciplinarity . You

1:17:26

know , like I remember Bob

1:17:29

speaking to me about him going , and he's

1:17:32

an honorary professor with Glenn Jeffrey

1:17:34

and he's lab at University College

1:17:36

London . And you know Glenn , you

1:17:38

know he's hustling with this idea of you know

1:17:40

why does 670 nanometers

1:17:43

work ? You know why is 670 nanometer

1:17:45

red light ? Why does

1:17:47

it seem to be so important ? And Bob

1:17:49

says , well , you know , that's the wavelength that plants

1:17:51

photosynthesize at . And Glenn goes well

1:17:54

, no , I didn't hurt that . And you know him explaining

1:17:56

all of these phenomena . These for that only

1:17:59

an astrophysicist would know help

1:18:01

make sense of how the retina

1:18:03

works . And then

1:18:05

you know , bob , coming from an optics engineering point

1:18:08

of view , having a look at the

1:18:10

folds of the brain , saying

1:18:12

, well , that's a light trap . Like I know that

1:18:14

any day of the week that's a light trap . You

1:18:17

know , that's designed to funnel near infrared light deep , deep

1:18:19

, deep within the body . It's completely

1:18:22

obvious . Now , a biologist

1:18:24

is not going to pick up on that stuff . It's

1:18:27

so , so important that , you

1:18:29

know , we encourage people

1:18:32

outside of their field to , you know , start thinking

1:18:34

about these ideas , because the breakthroughs

1:18:36

that those guys have had . And you know I feel

1:18:38

super blessed that I sort

1:18:41

of introduced them and now they're working together

1:18:43

. I hope they publish a paper

1:18:45

together so I can say I sort

1:18:48

of played a role in that

1:18:50

. But you know , these guys are doing

1:18:52

incredible work . You

1:18:54

know , and Glenn and Bob

1:18:56

figured out how a reindeer's eyes

1:18:58

work . You know , in

1:19:01

the Arctic when

1:19:03

the blue is so intense that it should

1:19:05

basically completely fry the eye

1:19:07

. They figured out why it

1:19:09

doesn't . And only a combination

1:19:11

of an astrophysicist and a professor

1:19:14

of ophthalmology could have figured that out and

1:19:16

the implications of the things that they

1:19:18

are discovering . And this

1:19:21

is not published . But Bob has said that they

1:19:23

are looking into the

1:19:25

idea that near infrared light is

1:19:27

helping the mitochondria overcome kinetic

1:19:30

barriers in generating

1:19:33

that proton gradient . Now we

1:19:35

have to remember that it is an evolutionary

1:19:38

given that we are exposed

1:19:40

to near infrared light all day long

1:19:42

. It's a given . That's the bare

1:19:44

minimum . So it stands

1:19:47

to reason that our body would have said evolutionarily

1:19:50

, our biology would have said well

1:19:52

, that energy , that photonic energy , is

1:19:54

there all day , so we might as well use it to

1:19:56

make this kinetic reaction easier

1:19:58

. And then , of course , as soon as you take

1:20:00

it away , the mitochondrial

1:20:02

function suffers immediately because

1:20:05

what is a given is

1:20:07

no longer there . And I think that's

1:20:09

what's so scary when you

1:20:11

think about it is that you know

1:20:13

, even if we are outside all

1:20:15

day , that's the

1:20:17

bare minimum , that is

1:20:19

reaching our evolutionary bare minimum . That's not

1:20:21

like oh look at me , I'm so healthy . You've

1:20:24

just reached , you know , a normal

1:20:26

level . You haven't excelled , you

1:20:28

know . That's just the reality of what

1:20:30

we're supposed to be exposed to . And

1:20:33

regardless of where you are on the

1:20:35

planet , that near

1:20:37

infrared is coming through rain , hail or shine

1:20:39

. That's the beautiful thing about water

1:20:41

is that it's not a strong absorber of

1:20:43

near infrared like it is infrared . So

1:20:46

all these clouds up above all the water in

1:20:48

the atmosphere , the near infrared just funnels

1:20:50

its way down and it hits the earth . It

1:20:53

might go back up and come back down , but

1:20:55

the near infrared is always there , no matter where you are . So

1:20:59

even if you're like me and my

1:21:01

skin can't tolerate a

1:21:04

full summer's day outside , I will

1:21:06

burn . It'll be a little bit too much for me , but

1:21:08

I still need to be outside because I

1:21:11

still need the near infrared . I don't have

1:21:13

to be directly in the sun , but I need to be sitting

1:21:15

in the shade absorbing all the near infrared

1:21:17

, because that is the evolutionary given . That

1:21:20

is the bare minimum . And

1:21:22

I'll be the first to admit I don't reach

1:21:24

that bare minimum because you know , fundamentally

1:21:27

I live indoors , I work indoors

1:21:29

, I'm outside as much

1:21:31

as I can possibly be . But

1:21:34

that's an important thing to remember

1:21:36

is that that is a bare minimum . That

1:21:38

is what our body expects , that is what

1:21:40

the mitochondria expects to happen . Is

1:21:43

this chronic exposure ?

1:21:45

That's a great , great explanation , cameron . And the

1:21:47

problem that Scott is trying to solve

1:21:50

, which I think is this next

1:21:52

frontier , is how to get near infrared

1:21:54

back into indoor environments , and

1:21:56

his work with making

1:21:58

bulbs that emit a near

1:22:00

infrared band , a broad near

1:22:03

infrared band , at the same time as being

1:22:05

reasonably energy efficient to comply with

1:22:07

this myopic government

1:22:09

policy . That is

1:22:12

admirable and that's the problem

1:22:14

that's going to need to be solved by multiple people , and

1:22:16

I'm in discussion

1:22:18

with some engineers

1:22:21

to think about whether we can design

1:22:24

things like a photo by modulation

1:22:26

panel with multiple near

1:22:28

infrared and red wavelengths to basically

1:22:31

help people put it in indoor office environments

1:22:34

for people who can't set up outside or

1:22:36

can't set up in front of a window , to

1:22:38

really get this infrared light back

1:22:40

in . But let's pivot and

1:22:42

let's finish

1:22:44

this conversation on the sun , because

1:22:47

it is a topic of interest of

1:22:49

both of us , and the

1:22:51

reason why it's so important is because narratives

1:22:54

from that

1:22:56

are quite old but particularly emphasize

1:22:59

in the past maybe 20

1:23:02

, 30 years is that the sun

1:23:04

is harmful , and I think the

1:23:06

maybe the corporate entity

1:23:08

behind that is the dermatology

1:23:10

, the dermatology profession

1:23:12

, and I'll say that because

1:23:15

this episode will have aired after

1:23:17

I've released my conversation with Professor

1:23:19

Richard Weller and

1:23:21

, before someone attacks

1:23:23

me for attacking the dermatology profession

1:23:25

, I'm not going to say anything that the

1:23:28

esteemed Professor Weller hasn't already said

1:23:30

, which is that the

1:23:32

dermatologists have been misguided in

1:23:34

terms of essentially recommending everyone

1:23:37

stay inside a cave , to

1:23:39

quote him and take vitamin D pills , based

1:23:42

on the fact that not only do we need

1:23:44

this infrared light for being outside , we

1:23:47

actually also need UV

1:23:49

, and we do need these balanced

1:23:51

wavelengths of visible light to

1:23:53

so . So talk about your

1:23:56

thoughts about the sun , about

1:23:58

tanning and about , maybe

1:24:01

, the narrative shift that has

1:24:03

to change in order for us to get

1:24:06

this critical light nutrient back into

1:24:08

people's lives .

1:24:11

Yeah , I'll just finish my thought from

1:24:13

the previous question about melatonin . Sure

1:24:15

, the reason

1:24:17

melatonin is going up when

1:24:19

you're exposed to long wavelength light

1:24:22

, particularly in the near infrared , is

1:24:24

because the mitochondria are working

1:24:26

better , and when the mitochondria

1:24:28

work better they're producing more reactive oxygens

1:24:30

. That's just the byproduct of more

1:24:32

efficient mitochondrial function . And

1:24:35

melatonin , much like DHA , probably

1:24:37

came around the same time about 600 million

1:24:39

years ago , extraordinarily

1:24:42

old and conserved . We know it's super

1:24:44

important because it's been around for that long , incredible

1:24:48

, probably the best antioxidant

1:24:50

able to sap up reactive

1:24:53

oxygen species better than most things

1:24:55

. Because , unlike

1:24:57

vitamin C , where it can take

1:24:59

one free

1:25:01

radical and then it itself becomes a free

1:25:03

radical , the scobal radical , melatonin

1:25:06

, the molecule that is made

1:25:08

after it scavenges one , is also an antioxidant

1:25:11

, and then it's the one that

1:25:13

scavenges after that is also an antioxidant

1:25:15

. So it is an extremely strong thing

1:25:17

. But I think again , it's just a

1:25:19

proxy marker for better mitochondrial

1:25:22

function . I think that's

1:25:24

what it's doing , and it's probably doing 500

1:25:27

other things at the same time . But fundamentally

1:25:29

I think the reason it's going up is

1:25:31

because the mitochondria just working better and

1:25:34

that's to be expected , I suppose . I mean , we

1:25:36

know that it works better with new

1:25:38

infrared . But getting to

1:25:40

this story and this is , you know

1:25:42

, being Australians this really hits

1:25:44

home . The

1:25:49

narrative is extremely dangerous and it's

1:25:51

killing people . That's

1:25:54

just how it is the

1:25:57

way . I don't even blame the dermatologists

1:25:59

. To be honest , I think the reason we've got

1:26:01

here is the same reason , the same

1:26:03

story with Ricketts

1:26:05

and Coddlyve Royal . We

1:26:08

just we got too into the weeds that we lost

1:26:11

, we lost the context , we

1:26:13

zoomed in too far and we no longer

1:26:15

realize what it is that we're looking at at all . We've

1:26:18

lost the forest for the trees . And

1:26:21

before I started the podcast

1:26:24

, my first planned podcast was with

1:26:26

a vitamin D researcher here in Australia

1:26:28

and they declined

1:26:30

to do the podcast . They said they'd speak with

1:26:32

me but they didn't want to be recorded because

1:26:34

they

1:26:37

stated quite clearly that they can't

1:26:39

be talking about this stuff because the

1:26:41

people in the Cancer Council are

1:26:44

very , very powerful in how grant money gets

1:26:46

given out and

1:26:48

they don't want to risk their reputation being done

1:26:50

by saying , hey , you actually do

1:26:53

need sunlight . And that was a big

1:26:55

wake-up call for me , like wow , there are actually

1:26:57

powers that be here that are pushing

1:26:59

a narrative . There actually is a narrative

1:27:02

and I understand why . I

1:27:04

mean , if you're the head of the Cancer Council who's

1:27:06

been saying any amount of sun

1:27:08

is going to kill you for decades

1:27:11

. Are you really going to turn

1:27:13

around and say , hey , actually we got that completely

1:27:15

wrong and we've probably caused thousands and thousands

1:27:17

of deaths as a result of our messaging

1:27:19

? Of course they're going to double

1:27:21

down and say , no , of course we're

1:27:23

right . And they'll have the same tagline

1:27:26

there's nothing healthy about a tan , which

1:27:28

is so non-scientific

1:27:30

I can't even wrap my head around it . A

1:27:33

toddler could tell you . Anyone

1:27:36

who is pale your

1:27:38

grandma says , oh , are you feeling

1:27:40

okay ? Are you sick ? People

1:27:43

who attend they say , wow , you're glowing . You look really

1:27:45

healthy . I mean , forget about science

1:27:48

. We know that tanning

1:27:50

is a sign of health . I mean , that's just

1:27:52

a toddler knows that . But

1:27:56

really what's happened is scientism

1:27:59

has got in the way of real science

1:28:01

and for

1:28:04

goodness sake , we use Murine models , we use

1:28:06

mice to study this stuff . First of

1:28:08

all , they're nocturnal and

1:28:10

they're furry . Then their skin's not supposed

1:28:13

to be exposed to sunlight

1:28:15

, to narrow band UV lamps . To

1:28:17

narrow band UV . And then

1:28:19

they use solar simulators . I don't know if

1:28:21

you've seen these solar simulators . I

1:28:23

asked this vitamin D researcher . I said what's

1:28:26

the spectrum on these things ? It's

1:28:28

about 10% UV . Nowhere

1:28:31

on this planet do you get 10% UV . It's

1:28:34

absolutely ridiculous . And of course

1:28:36

they don't have the balancing long wave lengths

1:28:38

to accompany them , because these

1:28:41

are energy efficient lighting

1:28:43

scenarios and they're

1:28:45

in a cage . They're

1:28:48

not grounded , they're surrounded by Wi-Fi

1:28:50

. For goodness sake , you couldn't get

1:28:52

further away from a model that is going

1:28:54

to tell you anything about the real world . And

1:28:57

then , to top that off , we know that all of

1:28:59

those early Murine models

1:29:02

were tainted by the fact that these

1:29:04

mice had papilloma viruses

1:29:06

that caused melanoma . The

1:29:09

whole thing was tainted from the beginning , but

1:29:11

no one ever knows that story that

1:29:13

the original studies were tainted

1:29:15

. And no one is talking

1:29:18

about the fact that even

1:29:20

sunburn increases

1:29:22

your risk of living when you get melanoma

1:29:25

. It's

1:29:27

a predictor of better health outcomes

1:29:29

, sunburn , which

1:29:31

no one should be striving for

1:29:33

. We know the

1:29:35

biggest studies of their kind . The melanoma

1:29:38

in southern Sweden cohort set

1:29:40

out to find over 20 years ago why

1:29:43

their whole thing was , find

1:29:45

out why sunlight causes

1:29:47

cancer , particularly melanoma . They

1:29:50

found the exact opposite . The

1:29:52

exact opposite . Massive cohort , over

1:29:54

20,000 people , and

1:29:56

they found the exact opposite . Even the people

1:29:59

who smoked lifelong

1:30:01

, smokers that got the most sun exposure lived

1:30:04

longer than the non-smokers who had the least

1:30:06

sun exposure . This

1:30:09

idea that we're calling sunlight

1:30:11

and we can't say sunlight

1:30:13

is carcinogenic . Uv light

1:30:16

, man-made UV light , can be

1:30:18

carcinogenic . Let's be very clear

1:30:20

about that . If it's any time you take

1:30:22

light outside of the balance of the natural environment

1:30:24

, you're playing with fire , and

1:30:26

that's why I'm not particularly a fan of UV

1:30:29

tanning beds , because all you get

1:30:31

is this narrow band . Uvb can

1:30:33

be useful , sure , but you're

1:30:35

running a risk and

1:30:38

there's no translational capacity

1:30:40

with the studies that have been done

1:30:43

. And of course , here's the other thing it's

1:30:45

considered unethical to have

1:30:47

a study where you purposefully expose

1:30:49

humans to sunlight . It's

1:30:52

considered unethical because they think it's carcinogenic

1:30:54

. So you can't get those studies where you say let's

1:30:57

get a group of people tell them to live outside

1:30:59

as much as possible and get another group

1:31:01

of people to say keep doing what you're doing and then

1:31:03

see the health outcomes . You can't do that

1:31:05

because it's seen as unethical , it's

1:31:09

beyond ridiculous . And

1:31:12

I'm aware I sound quite

1:31:14

passionate right now and that's because

1:31:18

I've had family members who have died of

1:31:20

melanoma . It's

1:31:23

unacceptable that we're treating it the way , that

1:31:25

we are saying that the sun causes it , when

1:31:27

all of the evidence suggests that the

1:31:30

story is not even remotely that simple

1:31:32

. And we know that exposure

1:31:35

, that the use of sunscreen , increases

1:31:38

your risk of non-melanoma skin cancer because

1:31:40

you're able to stay out in the sun longer

1:31:42

than you should . You know , at Irithema

1:31:45

the reddening of the skin is the sign . Hey , maybe

1:31:47

you need to get into the shade right now . Right

1:31:50

as Jack Crew says , lines and hippos

1:31:52

know to go in the shade in the heat of the day . You

1:31:54

know they don't need any science to tell

1:31:56

them that and that's what our bodies are doing

1:31:59

. When you get that reddening , you go

1:32:01

out of the sun . It's very simple . But

1:32:03

the use of sunscreens , even the use of artificial

1:32:07

light , particularly at night , just because

1:32:13

it's blue , it's right next to ultraviolet

1:32:15

in the spectrum , is a really high-energy

1:32:18

photons and they penetrate quite deep

1:32:20

, which is why those

1:32:22

visible wavelengths are

1:32:24

what cause basal cell carcinoma . So

1:32:28

when you're sitting in your office all day under fluorescent

1:32:30

tube lighting , thinking , oh , I'm

1:32:32

glad I'm not outside getting UV light

1:32:34

, you know like

1:32:37

you're not really understanding the

1:32:39

fact that those visible wavelengths are

1:32:41

really high-energy photons as well and

1:32:43

they're penetrating really deep . And because

1:32:45

they're not balanced by the red , the near infrared

1:32:47

and the infrared , you know your

1:32:50

mitochondria are fundamentally

1:32:52

not liking that and

1:32:54

I think it's quite clear that use

1:32:56

of sunscreen increases risk of basal cell

1:32:58

carcinoma because of that precise

1:33:01

phenomena . You're blocking out the UV

1:33:03

but you're allowing the high-energy

1:33:05

visible photons to be interacting

1:33:07

with your skin for so much longer than they should

1:33:10

. You've uncoupled the system

1:33:12

and I think as soon

1:33:14

as we can get studies where the

1:33:16

system is coupled and you get

1:33:18

people exposed to sunlight

1:33:20

naturally and not artificial

1:33:23

light , then we can start to make inferences

1:33:25

. But this idea that the sun

1:33:27

is toxic or harmful

1:33:30

for your health really has to

1:33:32

be turned around , and

1:33:35

I think that's probably

1:33:38

my big mission with

1:33:40

what I'm doing is to help people understand

1:33:43

that light really matters and

1:33:45

that sunlight is our birthright

1:33:47

and being able

1:33:50

to live . I mean , we all know

1:33:52

it feels good . You know it's

1:33:56

giving us , like Jack says

1:33:58

, the complete compounding pharmacy . It's

1:34:01

the whole thing . It has every

1:34:03

wavelength in it that we need . And

1:34:06

, yeah , it upsets me

1:34:08

quite a bit to see this narrative , particularly

1:34:12

when there is so much evidence

1:34:14

to the contrary . There's so

1:34:16

much evidence to the contrary , it's almost

1:34:18

unbelievable and

1:34:21

it's going to take a long time to turn the ship

1:34:23

around , but I think young

1:34:25

people are going to start

1:34:28

to realize well , hang on , we've never

1:34:30

lived more away from the influence of

1:34:32

sun in our entire evolutionary past

1:34:34

, yet we've never had more melanoma

1:34:37

and non-melanoma skin cancer . I

1:34:39

think that makes sense for me , because it doesn't

1:34:42

make sense at all , and

1:34:45

I'd love to speak to dermatologists

1:34:48

. I mean , I sent you that article about

1:34:50

the Australians of the year who

1:34:53

pale as all get out

1:34:55

, talking about why you should never go out in the sun

1:34:57

because they're melanoma researchers . It's

1:35:00

very upsetting that we bestow

1:35:02

awards upon people like this who are , in

1:35:05

my view and I suspect yours

1:35:07

probably harming people with that advice . I

1:35:11

will contain my diatribe

1:35:14

to there because I could go

1:35:16

on forever , because it's something I'm very passionate

1:35:18

about and people really need to get a grasp

1:35:20

on .

1:35:22

I share your passion because , in terms

1:35:24

of what we're trying to convey with

1:35:26

the health benefits of light , natural

1:35:28

sunlight , the UV

1:35:31

sun causes melanoma and

1:35:33

avoid the sun because of those reasons is

1:35:36

the biggest obstacle in terms of getting

1:35:38

people out and into an environment

1:35:41

which they can begin to reap

1:35:43

these benefits of healthy sunlight . That's

1:35:46

why I respect the work of Professor

1:35:49

Weller with his UK Biobank study

1:35:51

and Peli Lindquist

1:35:53

with his melanoma and southern Sweden

1:35:55

study , because those are large

1:35:57

, longitudinal , population-based

1:36:00

yes , observational studies , but they

1:36:02

showed that unequivocally

1:36:04

that the more sun someone

1:36:07

gets , the more ultraviolet light

1:36:09

someone gets , the lower

1:36:11

their walk-alls mortality , the lower

1:36:13

their cancer mortality , the lower

1:36:15

their cardiovascular mortality . We're

1:36:18

really trading off the melanoma

1:36:21

researching

1:36:24

apparatus and the

1:36:26

anti-sun messaging

1:36:28

narrative is really making

1:36:31

a risk-versed benefit trade-off on

1:36:33

behalf of the population that

1:36:35

your cardiovascular

1:36:38

mortality doesn't matter , your total

1:36:40

cancer mortality doesn't matter . Instead

1:36:42

, what we think matters is your

1:36:45

prevention of melanoma . Yet they're not even correct

1:36:47

on that for the reasons that you've just talked

1:36:49

about . This

1:36:52

is grand scale harm of people

1:36:54

, because the fact

1:36:56

of the matter is that more people are dying from cardiovascular

1:36:58

disease , more people are dying from bowel cancer and

1:37:00

breast cancer , lung

1:37:02

cancer , then they're dying from

1:37:05

melanoma , not

1:37:07

to diminish the seriousness

1:37:10

of that condition , but the advice

1:37:12

around the primary prevention of melanoma

1:37:15

is misguided . You

1:37:18

can look at studies that show

1:37:20

increased vitamin D is protective

1:37:23

of prognosis in diagnosed

1:37:25

melanoma , meaning that people that had the high

1:37:28

vitamin D had less invasive tumors

1:37:30

. They had less likely to metastasize . If

1:37:33

UV light makes vitamin D then

1:37:36

, as you've pointed out , cameron , square

1:37:38

that for us . Happy to talk to anyone

1:37:40

who can square that circle for me . The

1:37:43

reality is that melanoma , just

1:37:45

like those other cancers , is

1:37:48

a problem when the immune system is impaired

1:37:51

from a low vitamin D level and low

1:37:53

ambient low sunlight

1:37:55

exposure . The paradoxical

1:37:57

implication is that

1:38:00

once you have a melanoma diagnosis

1:38:02

, getting that vitamin D level up

1:38:04

as soon as you can becomes your priority

1:38:06

and connect two dots

1:38:09

about how to get your vitamin D

1:38:11

level up in the most healthy way . This

1:38:14

whole story has been butchered

1:38:17

and people have been misguided . That's

1:38:20

why I'm so excited to release my course about

1:38:22

how to build a healthy

1:38:25

and safe solar callus , because it's going

1:38:27

to go in depth about all

1:38:29

the nuances and the

1:38:32

topics that we have

1:38:34

a lot that we've mentioned on this podcast but also

1:38:36

how to use it in the sun in an ancestrally

1:38:38

appropriate manner . I'm not diminishing

1:38:41

the fact that UV light

1:38:43

yield and skin type is the

1:38:45

main associated risk factor

1:38:47

. We need to be careful

1:38:50

and we need to be judicious , but

1:38:52

there's so much more advice

1:38:54

that people need in order to be able to harness

1:38:56

this giant fusion reactor in the sky

1:38:59

for the inarguable

1:39:01

health benefits .

1:39:05

It's like the advice we're given

1:39:07

is like the worst trade deal ever . It's

1:39:09

like you receive , you

1:39:12

get increased risk of basically

1:39:14

every single disease and you get

1:39:17

protection from perhaps

1:39:19

the skin cancers that don't metastasize

1:39:21

. That's it . It's

1:39:24

the worst trade deal ever . It's

1:39:27

the worst thing you could possibly imagine , but

1:39:30

just the way that it's

1:39:32

messaged has become so ingrained

1:39:35

and so powerful . I'm

1:39:38

so glad you're talking about solocalis

1:39:41

. Most people have no idea how

1:39:44

well they can actually tan when

1:39:46

they actually do the right things . It's

1:39:49

so easy to switch that around . Some

1:39:51

people burn instantly . It's

1:39:56

quite remarkable when they're night owls . They stay

1:39:58

up to all hours of the night . They

1:40:01

eat the standard diet . They're

1:40:04

doing all of the things that basically aren't

1:40:06

helping their skin prepare

1:40:08

to actually interact with the environment

1:40:10

the way that it's meant to . You'd be

1:40:12

surprised how even people

1:40:15

with light skin can tolerate the sun

1:40:17

, even here in Australia . It's

1:40:21

remarkable how long you can actually be

1:40:24

out there without getting the burn

1:40:26

. As

1:40:28

far as I'm aware , it's not

1:40:30

even the skin type . It's actually

1:40:33

hair colour matters more than skin colour

1:40:35

with regard to risk of

1:40:37

skin cancer . I

1:40:40

found that to be absolutely fascinating . I should

1:40:42

be doing a podcast soon with skin

1:40:47

cancer researcher or retired skin

1:40:49

cancer researcher , who goes

1:40:52

over all of this stuff , about all

1:40:55

the things we just spoke about how sunlight decreases

1:40:58

your risk of skin cancers and

1:41:01

decreases your mortality , if you do get

1:41:03

one . And yeah , apparently

1:41:06

she tells me hair colour

1:41:08

is more important than skin colour , which

1:41:10

I found to be fascinating because of

1:41:14

the melanin story and obviously

1:41:16

there are different types of melanin and you know , regrettably

1:41:19

we didn't get to talk about how melanin

1:41:21

is a semiconductor and what the implications

1:41:24

of that are . But

1:41:27

yeah , that might be a conversation for another day , but

1:41:30

you know , all of this stuff goes so deep and it's so

1:41:32

incredibly fascinating .

1:41:34

Yes , it is . And

1:41:36

look , as Australians , I think we're uniquely

1:41:38

placed to have this discussion because

1:41:41

Queensland is the melanoma capital

1:41:43

of the world . Australia has

1:41:45

massive , disproportionate

1:41:47

incidents of melanoma

1:41:50

and New Zealand obviously as well

1:41:52

. But the I can attest

1:41:55

you know , in UK and two , having grown up

1:41:57

in this country , that

1:41:59

the way that people are using the sun is

1:42:01

not respecting an ancestral

1:42:04

, the ancestral niche that we've spent

1:42:06

an hour and a half talking about , and that is the

1:42:09

fact that when you go to the beach and

1:42:12

no one has got as a kid , no

1:42:14

one has got morning sun , no one has

1:42:16

exposed their skin to red and infrared

1:42:18

from natural full

1:42:20

spectrum morning sunlight . And you

1:42:22

know it's 10 , 11 AM . The

1:42:25

UV index is , you know , raging

1:42:27

already . You lather on all

1:42:29

this . You know UVA

1:42:31

, uvb , blocking sunscreens , and

1:42:34

you know you hop out in the sun and you play

1:42:36

in the surf for four hours and

1:42:40

that is how most people are using the sun . And you

1:42:43

know eating a standard Australian diet with

1:42:45

those non-edible food products you mentioned called seed

1:42:48

oils .

1:42:48

Yeah , I was going to say . Then , after

1:42:50

the beach , you go and get deep fried fish and chips

1:42:53

and go home and have a few beers and stay up

1:42:55

in the watching the telly and in the LED

1:42:57

lighting that you've got . You know it's a perfect storm

1:42:59

you I couldn't have . I couldn't have made it

1:43:01

better of myself if I was the devil . You

1:43:04

know you couldn't do anything better than that

1:43:06

.

1:43:06

So so part of this change is the education

1:43:08

, and again I'm going to talk about