3:34

In this episode I'm speaking with expert

3:36

engineer Andrew Latour of Gamber

3:38

Red , a company producing high-quality

3:40

red light therapy devices . I've

3:42

got Andrew on to speak about the concepts and

3:44

theory behind the growing field of photo

3:47

biomodulation , which uses

3:49

light wavelengths predominantly in the red

3:51

and infrared regions to elicit

3:53

healing responses in the body . There

3:56

is growing scientific literature on the benefits

3:58

of red light therapy for a very

4:00

wide range of medical

4:02

and health optimization indications

4:05

. This interview serves as an in-depth

4:07

and comprehensive introduction to red light therapy

4:09

and photo biomodulation . I have

4:11

no financial affiliation with Gamber

4:13

Red and merely have enjoyed Andrew's

4:16

free educational content that he's been putting

4:18

out on his excellent YouTube channel and

4:20

his dedication to transparency

4:22

of his operation . So

4:24

now on to the show . Okay

4:34

, I'm sitting down with Andrew Latour

4:36

of Gamber Red photo biomodulation

4:39

device company . Andrew

4:41

, thanks for coming on the podcast .

4:44

Hi Max , thanks for having me .

4:46

Let's start with your professional background

4:48

, because you're an engineer and you

4:51

are making some very interesting photo

4:53

biomodulation devices and also

4:55

educating about photo biomodulation

4:57

and red light therapy , which I think is very

4:59

important .

5:01

Yeah , yeah , my background's in chemical engineering

5:04

. I got a degree at University

5:06

of Connecticut and

5:08

did well in school and worked

5:11

in industry for about 10 years and

5:14

I learned a lot in industry about running

5:16

a business making products very efficient

5:18

, making them very effective , focusing

5:20

on safety for not only your

5:23

employees that build the products but for

5:25

the end consumer make sure you're delivering

5:27

what the consumer wants and needs . And

5:30

very stringent quality control

5:32

of getting things measured properly , getting things

5:34

scientifically validated

5:37

. I really have

5:39

in that quality control aspect and that's

5:41

what I think I've brought to my

5:44

products and my brand of red

5:46

light therapy of really sticking to the

5:48

science , sticking to the evidence , just

5:51

making products that deliver the

5:53

right wavelengths , intensity , all that

5:55

stuff we'll get into and

5:57

getting it scientifically validated , getting

5:59

it measured accurately . So I've

6:01

got all these kind of soft skills that I learned from

6:04

industry and from my

6:06

schooling that helps me really digest

6:08

the science and do things in a very practical

6:10

and evidence-based way .

6:13

Yeah , and that was one reason why I wanted to talk

6:15

to you , because your YouTube videos are

6:17

extremely evidence-based and you

6:19

reference a lot of the literature and

6:22

make it quite easy to understand

6:24

, so that's a fantastic

6:26

thing . How did you get involved in photo

6:28

by modulation , having come from a more

6:30

of a chemical engineering background ?

6:34

Yeah , yeah , I struggled with my health for

6:36

most of my life . As

6:39

a young kid I had a lot of problems

6:42

that started with a vaccine injury

6:44

, actually , and immune

6:46

system problems and constant bombardment

6:48

with antibiotics and chronic

6:51

sinus issues and then getting

6:53

weight problems , obesity

6:55

, sleep problems and all this stuff and I never

6:57

really thought about taking control of

6:59

my health until my mid-20s and

7:02

I started to learn some of the alternative wellness

7:04

stuff got into biohacking , got into

7:06

low-carb , keto bulletproof

7:09

, following all the podcasts , going

7:11

to some of the biohacking conferences

7:13

and just naturally being interested

7:16

in technology and trying

7:18

to scientifically validate all the stuff I was

7:20

doing . That's what really drew me to biohacking

7:22

of like , hey , you can take control of your health , you

7:24

can back it up with evidence and use your own body

7:27

as that . N equals one kind of sample

7:29

size of testing things out , seeing

7:31

what works for you , what doesn't work for you

7:33

put aside . And that's

7:35

what kind of introduced me to

7:37

the red light therapy and a

7:40

lot of it started with trying

7:42

to address my sleep problems , which

7:44

started with getting more sunlight

7:46

, getting outside , doing walks outside

7:48

, simple things

7:51

, wearing blue blockers at night and

7:53

just trying to tackle my sleep problem . That

7:55

seemed to be one of my core issues to getting

7:57

my weight under control and getting hormones

8:00

and energy levels right , and that

8:02

kind of naturally went into certain light therapies

8:05

trying out foreign for red and

8:07

the incandescent heat lamps , especially

8:10

for my low back pain and eventually

8:12

I learned about these red LED panels

8:15

and red light therapy stuff . That was just starting

8:17

to get a lot of hype around like 2017

8:20

. And I was digging

8:22

into that , diving into it and just kept

8:25

going down and down this rabbit hole and

8:27

then found some of the manufacturers

8:30

. I was living in China for a while , so I met with

8:32

a manufacturer and we worked together on

8:34

designing a product , getting it built , and

8:37

I just took the plunge of like , okay , I'm going to

8:39

try to be an entrepreneur

8:41

and release this

8:43

to the public . You can't even imagine

8:45

. But back in 2018

8:48

, 2017 , when I was developing the product

8:50

, there weren't a lot of options for red

8:52

light therapy panels . There was maybe only three

8:55

or four major companies that were doing

8:57

it at the time . So I became kind

8:59

of like one of the early adopters

9:02

of launching this product . I've been under

9:04

the radar , maybe you just . Maybe

9:06

you even recently heard about me , but I've

9:08

been around for a while and it

9:10

just started very grassroots of like , hey

9:12

, I've got this panel , I designed

9:14

it right , it's got some of the right wavelengths and

9:18

we got a third-party test Before

9:20

I sold a single panel . We got a third-party test

9:22

, we're completely transparent , with the

9:24

proper intensity and

9:27

working with the biohackers that

9:29

really wanted this and reducing

9:31

the flicker , reducing the EMFs and

9:33

really getting into that . And it's been

9:35

a big benefit to my own health , like I said , for

9:37

back pain , knee aches and sleep

9:40

and overall recovery . And

9:43

it's been really cool to be

9:45

able to share some of my research into

9:47

the science and it started out with

9:49

a lot of blogs and much more articulate

9:52

when I can write and type it

9:54

out and fix a draft . But yeah

9:56

, I'm trying to do more content into YouTube

10:00

and more audiovisual stuff

10:02

too .

10:04

Yeah , great , let's dive into the science

10:06

behind photobiomodulation and give the listeners because

10:08

a lot of

10:10

my listeners might

10:13

have seen about these red light therapy devices , these photobiomodulation

10:15

panels , but

10:17

I really want this to be an episode that they can listen

10:19

to , to kind of start at the beginning

10:22

and walk through the foundational concepts

10:25

. So talk to us about this whole scientific and therapeutic

10:28

field of photobiomodulation

10:31

. How did it start and , I guess , what

10:33

are these fundamentals that

10:35

is built on ?

10:37

Yeah , yeah , using light for

10:39

health is necessarily a new thing . Maybe the Romans

10:41

kind of were

10:43

playing around with it and one of the

10:45

big turning points was Niels Ryberg-Finzen In

10:48

1903 , he got

10:50

the Nobel Prize for

10:52

his work on light therapies

10:55

for tuberculosis and for small pox

10:57

and for smallpox patients . Even

10:59

into the Middle Ages they were using red curtains on

11:01

the windows and

11:03

they were wrapping them up in red blankets

11:05

and it didn't seem like it was a red light

11:08

therapy but it was more of the reds were

11:10

kind of blocking out some of the UVs and blues that

11:13

were exacerbating smallpox

11:16

. But so it's been around for a long time . And even around

11:18

that time and even around that time in

11:20

1903 , up until like the 1920s

11:23

and 30s , there was all these heliotherapy

11:26

clinics that were starting for tuberculosis

11:28

patients . And then it

11:31

kind of went downhill after penicillin

11:33

was was invented and antibiotics

11:35

and all this stuff . That's obviously amazing

11:38

for humanity , but

11:40

it kind of cemented

11:42

some of the complexes

11:44

that demonized light therapies of of

11:46

, you know , trying to use it . So we kind of had

11:49

a dark age from like the 1930s

11:51

until like even up until the 1980s

11:54

. But around 1960

11:56

, you know , the first lasers were invented

11:59

, the ruby laser , which was a red laser

12:01

that was based on a ruby crystal . That

12:04

was first invented and then , shortly after

12:06

, they started experimenting with these lasers

12:09

on rats and mice and

12:11

people . And Andre Mester in

12:13

Hungary was one of the first

12:15

ones to do this research of using

12:17

lasers on mice and

12:19

he was actually accidentally found

12:21

it because he used a lower power laser that

12:23

he didn't realize it was a low powered laser

12:26

on these mice and some sort of cancer

12:28

treatment and he found the mice

12:30

he would treat it with this low powered laser

12:32

. Their wounds healed faster , their

12:34

hair grow a little faster and that's what

12:37

really got him interested in in

12:39

this what he called laser bio stimulation

12:41

. So that

12:43

that's what really coined you know some of

12:45

these terms and got started with the . The

12:49

technology and the therapy called low

12:51

level laser therapy as an

12:53

important distinction from high

12:55

intensity lasers that you can burn stuff and

12:57

heat stuff up and cut . You know you can use surgical

13:00

lasers for cutting and ablating and

13:02

coagulation , but specifically

13:04

the low intensity lasers

13:06

got that name because they don't cause

13:08

significant heat . You know , sometimes I call them soft

13:11

lasers and cold lasers just to

13:13

remind people that we're not doing a heat therapy

13:15

, it's a non thermal kind

13:18

of therapy , and so you know that . You

13:20

know that research is , you know , kind of slowly

13:22

accumulated over over the years , starting

13:24

from the 60s . You know , got

13:26

a lot of traction in the 1990s

13:29

with when NASA did some experiments

13:31

with red LEDs and that was

13:34

the first time LEDs were even kind

13:36

of the technology was ready to be powerful

13:39

enough to deliver this as a light therapy . Before

13:42

that Most LEDs were just uses

13:44

, cheap little indicator lights on alarm

13:46

clocks , and you know your TV remote

13:48

control has that little near infrared LED

13:51

that controls your , your channels . So that's

13:54

how , you know NASA got into it and

13:56

they they used it for , you know , versus grow lights and then

13:59

you know , for like wound healing and the

14:02

mitochondrial stimulation for astronauts

14:04

. And so that's what kind of

14:07

made the LEDs become

14:09

more accessible and you know

14:11

they were more powerful and obviously

14:13

cheaper . They're much safer . There's

14:15

no , you know , fda regulations like

14:18

there are for lasers , you know , and the eye , you

14:20

know , causing eye damage . So that's what kind

14:23

of really enabled you know what we

14:25

see today of all these LED panels on the

14:27

market . They're very safe for home use

14:29

, they're very easy for a consumer to use and

14:32

you know there's tons of tons

14:34

of studies . You know there's Tina Karoo

14:37

, which I think was also she's been in

14:39

Russia is one of the biggest researchers

14:41

and her research

14:43

group found the mitochondrial

14:45

kind of action spectra for

14:48

these red and near infrared wavelengths . So

14:50

that helped put a mechanism to

14:52

. You know what we're doing with red light therapy

14:55

of , like you know , we've got the cytochrome

14:57

c-oxidase in the electron transport

14:59

chain on the mitochondria . That's

15:02

, you know , the fourth step in the

15:04

process . But they

15:06

found , because it's got iron and copper

15:08

centers that can absorb these

15:10

red and near infrared wavelengths . That's

15:13

what gets stimulated and helps with the mitochondrial

15:15

kind of process of building ATP

15:17

and producing , you

15:19

know , some beneficial ROS and some

15:22

of the signaling , like the nitric oxide

15:24

release . And so you know that's one

15:26

of the things I was reading , one

15:28

of Becker's books that

15:30

, like you know , we've been really hardcore

15:33

on the chemistry of biology

15:35

and everything's like got a chemical

15:37

component to it and so

15:40

in order for red light

15:42

therapy to become kind of justified in the

15:44

mainstream , we needed a chemical mechanism

15:46

for this to

15:48

be believable in kind of

15:50

the western hemisphere , you

15:52

know . So that was a huge

15:54

kind of turning point that hey , now we have

15:56

a mechanism that might not be the

15:59

best mechanism . It's definitely not the only

16:01

mechanism which we can talk

16:03

about . But you know that's

16:06

also what builds hey , we need a mechanism

16:08

. You know any kind of drug or medicine . You need

16:10

to say , hey , we've got a mechanism for how

16:12

this works . So you know , this is how we justify

16:14

it . It can't just be some black magic

16:16

that you shine some light on you and you magically get

16:18

healed . Nobody's going to buy . You know you can't sell

16:21

that . So we've got some

16:23

mechanisms now . But you

16:25

know we have the empirical data

16:27

that there's . You know more and more studies . You

16:30

know randomized , placebo controlled studies

16:33

. I just went over one on my YouTube

16:35

for full body red light therapy , for Fiber

16:37

Myalgia , you know . But it's

16:39

studied for athletic performance

16:41

. It's studied for skincare , studied for

16:43

, you know , the brain health stuff is going to be

16:45

really important , the eye health stuff . So

16:48

it's really remarkable and because

16:50

it works on a fundamental

16:52

level on our mitochondria and we've got mitochondria

16:55

in all our cells and all our organs and

16:58

we've already kind of correlated

17:00

. That mitochondrial dysfunction

17:02

is kind of the root cause of a lot of our kind

17:04

of chronic age related conditions

17:07

and diseases that we don't . You know , a lot

17:09

of them don't even have any kind of cure . We

17:11

can only manage the symptoms . But red

17:13

light therapy works more at that fundamental

17:16

level , as you know . Possibly , if

17:18

we use the right , it could be more of a preventative

17:21

as well , of making sure

17:23

our mitochondria are working right , you

17:25

know , if I'm using it as a relatively young

17:28

, healthy person , but I want to keep my mitochondria

17:30

, you know , balanced and healthy . That

17:32

that could help , you know , improve longevity

17:35

and quality of life .

17:37

Yeah , I love it . And what you

17:39

said just then about mitochondria

17:42

being at the mitochondrial dysfunction

17:44

being at the root of chronic disease

17:46

, that statement is

17:48

so important , so

17:50

relevant , and 99%

17:53

of MDs and other doctors

17:55

might have some

17:57

notion but have no formed

18:00

belief that that is what is

18:02

actually going on . Yet you you're an engineer

18:04

, you're a practitioner , you're someone

18:06

who manufactures these devices , you're

18:08

someone like you were so far ahead of where

18:11

we are collectively in centralized medicine right

18:13

now . So thank you for

18:15

really emphasizing that point and I

18:17

think that is so important

18:20

and I always like to come back to

18:22

it in my podcast , because and

18:24

that is , if we can improve mitochondrial function

18:26

and and obviously there's a range of ways

18:28

to do that , from fasting , ketogenic diets

18:30

and light is a key , key

18:33

aspect to that , which is what

18:35

we're trying to do here with photobiomodulation

18:37

. So talk to the natural wavelengths

18:40

of sunlight , talk to what we

18:42

have ancestrally in

18:44

terms of the terrestrial electromagnetic

18:46

, electromagnetic radiation spectrum and

18:49

what parts of that sunlight are

18:51

, being honest in this field of

18:53

photobiomodulation .

18:55

Yeah , yeah , so you know , sunlight gives us kind

18:58

of that full spectrum , you know

19:00

, quote unquote of , however we want to define

19:02

it , but it's this range of

19:04

, you know , electromagnetism , so

19:06

it's all kind of connected on this electromagnetic

19:08

frequencies and scales . You

19:11

know , usually we've ranged , you know this

19:13

, this kind of optical wavelength

19:15

range from like 100 nanometers up

19:17

to like a million nanometers , and

19:19

you're starting with the UVs , you

19:21

know the shorter wavelengths

19:24

of ultraviolet , then you get the

19:26

blues , then you get the greens , the

19:28

yellows , reds , you

19:30

know , and then once you get past red

19:33

, you know we can't see it anymore . So we can only

19:35

see a small portion of the

19:37

, you know , visual , you know what we call the visible

19:39

spectrum , but it's only a small portion of the

19:41

electromagnetic spectrum that even the sun

19:44

emits . And so once you get

19:46

past red , you get the invisible , the near

19:48

infrared , the mid-infrareds and foreign

19:50

reds , and so we break up those

19:52

, especially

19:54

infrared , into those ranges , because

19:57

it's , you know , such a wide range from

19:59

, you know , from , I think

20:01

, 760 nanometers up to

20:03

, like I said , a million nanometers

20:05

. So we have to kind of break it up into chunks and

20:07

that's more of a physicist's kind of

20:09

definition for those different

20:12

wavelength ranges . But , like you know

20:14

, then we define this optical window

20:16

for human skin , this optical

20:19

window for human biology that

20:21

we found very important in the photobiomodulation

20:25

and the low-level laser literature

20:27

. So what makes these

20:29

wavelengths so special is the

20:32

red and near infrared range , usually defined

20:35

from like 600 nanometers up to

20:37

1100 nanometers . This is kind of the

20:39

optimal optical window

20:42

that penetrates into our skin

20:44

deeper than any other wavelengths on the spectrum

20:46

. So the UVs , the blues , the greens

20:48

, the yellows , they all get superficially absorbed

20:51

by melanin and by the blood

20:53

and you know , in the superficial blood . So

20:55

they don't penetrate very deep . Same

20:57

thing when you get into mid-infrared and foreign

20:59

for it , they don't penetrate very deep because they get absorbed

21:02

, as you know , mostly heat

21:04

, into the water of our , of our cell

21:06

, you know of superficial layers of our cells

21:08

. So only the red and near infrared light

21:11

has that penetration profile . That

21:13

is one kind of the first step

21:15

of making it so special that if it can penetrate

21:17

deeply into the skin and maybe

21:19

reach some organs , reach some

21:22

bone , reach , you know

21:24

, muscles and all these other tissues that

21:26

are higher in mitochondrial counts , then

21:28

that might be a good thing . Maybe we can deliver that

21:30

energy into those

21:32

tissues and give them a little

21:34

boost . The other aspect

21:36

of , you know , photochemistry and of photobiology

21:39

is that it needs to be absorbed into

21:41

something and that something has

21:43

to do with something right . So we have

21:46

these pigments , these chromophores

21:48

, which is , you know , kind of a fancy word for

21:50

you know just a kind

21:53

of a pigment or something with some sort of color

21:55

that absorbs certain wavelengths . So

21:57

we have these chromophores in our cells that are

21:59

responsive to certain types of

22:01

light wavelengths and spectra

22:04

. So , like I said , with the cytochrome

22:06

c-oxidase that has some peak

22:08

absorptions in the reds , you

22:10

know , around 625 , another

22:13

one , I think , around 670

22:15

, and then in the near infrared , around

22:17

760 and 825

22:20

. So there's a couple different action spectra

22:22

. So that's why we focus on those ranges . When

22:24

you see products , usually we have

22:27

some in those red ranges and then some

22:29

in the near infrared ranges , around the

22:31

low eight hundredths , because those get good

22:33

penetration and they activate

22:35

those mitochondrial mechanisms . So

22:37

that's what kind of defines

22:39

. You know the red and your infrared and you know

22:41

if you look at the spectrum of sunlight , a

22:44

big portion of sunlight is that

22:46

red and your infrared range , you know , sometimes when

22:48

I calculate it , it's anywhere from like

22:51

40 to 55 percent of

22:53

you know sunlight is in

22:55

that range of , you know , 600 to 1,100

22:58

. So you know , if we think about how

23:00

you know , all biology kind

23:02

of evolved under sunlight and

23:04

relied on sunlight for certain types of energy

23:06

. And we know how the plant kingdom , you

23:09

know , heavily relies on sunlight in terms of

23:11

photosynthesis , that

23:14

the mitochondria actually , you know were

23:16

found , that maybe that was like a prehistoric

23:18

bacteria and that joined

23:20

in with the animal

23:22

kingdom , with the animal cells and

23:24

the mitochondria have these mechanisms for utilizing

23:27

sunlight for energy as kind of a parallel

23:29

path of the chloroplast and the

23:31

chlorophyll with the animal

23:34

kingdom . So you know we've had

23:36

this . You know all the simple animals

23:38

like the lizards and the cold blooded animals

23:40

. They're heavily relying on sunlight

23:42

. They can't be active as much at

23:45

night because they're cold blooded . They rely

23:47

on some of that light and heat

23:50

from sunlight . During the day for them to

23:52

be active they have to lay out on rocks

23:54

and we have to give them heat lamps if we want

23:56

to keep them as pets . But because they're

23:58

, they don't get enough energy

24:01

from , you know , their own metabolism and from

24:03

their own diet . They

24:05

rely more heavily on sunlight

24:07

, which has to do with having less mitochondria

24:09

and having less stimulation and they can

24:11

only operate with that . And so we kind

24:13

of , you know , are above

24:15

them because we can operate pretty

24:18

well without much sunlight . We can operate

24:20

at night . You know a lot of mammals are nocturnal

24:22

and that was a good survival instinct

24:24

for you know , avoiding the

24:27

big reptiles , the dinosaurs . And

24:29

you know , eventually we became , you know , more

24:31

dominant , that you know , especially when

24:33

you know we had ice ages and we

24:35

were able to survive through having

24:38

less sunlight . But

24:40

you know , it kind of gets to a point of now

24:42

we're living an indoor lifestyle that's

24:45

subtracted a lot of sunlight and

24:47

subtracted , having fireplaces , and subtracted

24:49

incandescent bulbs due to bands

24:51

and things like that . Now we're living in

24:54

an environment that you know we

24:56

don't get much sunlight , we don't get these red , these

24:58

deep reds and nearing freds , and

25:00

that might be a correlation to

25:03

a lot of the mitochondrial dysfunction that

25:05

we're seeing today .

25:07

Yeah , great summary . Andrew and

25:09

the previous listeners of my podcast

25:11

will know that I've talked about

25:13

this at length with Scott Zimmerman

25:16

, who's also an engineer , and I really

25:18

encourage anyone who hasn't to go back and actually

25:20

listen to those episodes . But he has

25:22

also , in

25:24

his own way , recognized the massive

25:27

importance of near infrared light

25:29

for human biology . And

25:31

the fact is that we essentially evolved

25:33

as near infrared photon collectors

25:35

, and that is a range of

25:37

functions to do with our amnodic

25:40

fluid , our cerebrospinal fluid , that

25:42

our bodies essentially evolve to concentrate these

25:44

photons and having

25:46

this antioxidant effect through

25:48

the promotion of the production of

25:50

melatonin locally in the

25:52

cells . The way

25:55

I think about it and I like to communicate the importance

25:57

of near infrared light to people

25:59

, is that it's essential . It's a

26:01

key nutrient

26:03

, light nutrient factor

26:06

. So imagine if we

26:08

were eating a , you had this plate of food

26:11

and suddenly you take

26:13

half of those key nutrients away and

26:15

that is the equivalent of living indoors under isolated

26:18

LED . Blue light , blue

26:20

wavelength lighting is you've removed because

26:22

you're not getting that infrared from the sun and , as

26:24

you mentioned , we're no longer getting any infrared

26:27

that we would have gotten from incandescent light

26:29

. And , yes , that was a problem because we were lighting

26:32

up the night for the first time after the development

26:34

of the light bulb , but at least that was

26:36

giving us a little bit of this critical light nutrient

26:38

. But since , I believe , was

26:40

it maybe 2017 , when the

26:43

governments have brought in all this legislation

26:45

in the name of power saving , they

26:47

unwittingly are kind of depriving

26:49

everyone of near infrared

26:52

light , which is it's

26:55

the epitome of unintended consequences , because

26:58

you've got a bunch of bureaucrats who

27:00

are listening to some people who are saying

27:02

we have to cut our energy

27:04

usage and they're like , okay , we can

27:06

, we don't need this . All this infrared that's

27:08

being emitted from halogen and incandescent

27:11

and unwittingly probably

27:13

contributing massively to , as you said , mitochondrial

27:15

diseases , from cancer to autoimmune disease , to

27:17

metabolic disease , neurodegeneration

27:19

and aging , just to name a few

27:21

. The other point I want to make is the

27:24

biology has a range of

27:26

levels that it's actually absorbing

27:29

and using light , and you made

27:31

mention of the iron and heme

27:33

, the heme and the copper centers in

27:36

the various mitochondrial electron transport

27:38

chain complexes . But there's also I

27:40

like to think about it it's happening at multiple levels , because

27:42

we've also got things like the non visual

27:44

photoreceptors and the

27:46

actual chromophores

27:49

inside those non visual photoreceptors , like melanopsin

27:51

, and then we've got functions

27:54

, other molecules inside

27:56

the body , things like the HA , things like melanin

27:58

, things like even

28:01

vitamin B12 is actually absorbs light

28:03

and is having a bioactive

28:06

role . So , thanks

28:08

to that summary , that is a really good

28:10

and really good summary

28:12

. Now , just to break it down even further , can

28:15

you compare and contrast red versus

28:17

near infrared in terms of those

28:20

specific benefits ? And you had a really good image

28:22

on your Instagram where you've explained that

28:25

.

28:26

Yeah , yeah , and you know red

28:29

, you know it's the visual light and

28:31

visible and still visible . You know you can get

28:33

some deep red . Sometimes they look a little bit more orange

28:35

but then the near infrared are invisible

28:38

. So sometimes with LEDs they

28:40

don't emit any visible light . So you

28:42

know it's kind of a blank bulb and sometimes

28:44

people will email me and say , oh , all these bulbs

28:46

aren't working , but it's the invisible

28:48

near infrared that's just

28:51

beyond our spectrum of

28:53

what we can see . But

28:55

you know they're , you know they're relatively close on the

28:57

spectrum and they're within these , these kind of optical

29:00

ranges and sometimes , like one of

29:02

the the art interviews

29:04

that Dr Hamplin had I think it was with

29:07

Dr McCullough was he

29:09

said you know , if you got the reds and the

29:11

near infrared , they have kind of in the long

29:13

run very similar benefits of up

29:15

regulating mitochondrial function and

29:17

we don't have to worry too much about like targeting

29:20

certain , you know , peaks of action

29:23

spectra and targeting certain things . They they

29:25

both improve and to be very effective . With

29:27

the red wavelengths they do get absorbed a little

29:29

bit more superficially and the near

29:31

infrared penetrate a little bit deeper . So the

29:33

red sometimes get get more preferably

29:36

used for skincare , superficial stuff

29:38

, superficial wounds , because

29:41

you know , maybe they only penetrate a couple

29:43

millimeters . Some studies say even

29:45

the red can reach 40 to 50

29:47

millimeters , depending on the intensity

29:49

and how you do it . And near infrared is very similar

29:51

. Usually near infrared can have up to like twice

29:54

as much penetration as the red . So

29:56

it can again could go up to about 50

29:58

millimeters . And you know it gets absorbed

30:00

kind of exponentially as it passes through

30:03

the skin and through the tissue . So only

30:05

a small percentage actually reaches that

30:07

. You know , if we say 50 millimeters , which

30:10

is about what , like two inches or whatever , only

30:13

a small percentage actually reaches those , those

30:15

deeper depths . So it's not like it all magically

30:18

kind of appears at the bottom . It still

30:20

has to pass through and it's getting absorbed all

30:22

the way through , you know . And small percentages

30:25

do get picked up by water or blood or

30:27

whatever it is . But that's a big

30:29

part of you know . Are you targeting

30:31

? If you're targeting brain health or muscles

30:34

or bones , then you would prefer the near infrared

30:36

.

30:37

And can you talk to the difference

30:39

between narrow band versus

30:42

a broad band emission

30:44

? Because I think it's . It's relevant , obviously

30:46

, for the sun , but it's also relevant for the

30:48

difference between therapeutic

30:50

ice , you know , leds with

30:52

certain maybe , wavelengths , versus those

30:54

more incandescent , like laps that

30:57

we're using .

30:58

Yeah , yeah

31:00

, and I will say , you know , with a lot of

31:02

studies , whenever they combine . You know a lot of the

31:04

studies started out with single wavelength lasers

31:06

and then we got into single

31:08

wavelength LEDs and stuff . But whenever

31:10

they start to combine you know red and near

31:12

and Fred and there's much more studies now where they combine

31:15

red and near and Fred it works better

31:17

, it works synergistically . So it doesn't matter

31:19

if you're doing skincare , seems to be work

31:21

better if you're doing both red and near and Fred . Or

31:24

if you're doing deep penetration , if you're doing brain health

31:26

or whatever , it is , both combining

31:28

red and near and Fred seems to work better than doing

31:31

them in isolation . So , and

31:33

that might lead into your point of doing more of a

31:35

broadband kind of approach that kind of covers

31:37

a range of wavelengths , maybe covers different

31:39

action spectra , and

31:42

so you know you've got these incandescent

31:44

bulbs that you know were used by

31:46

a Finsen and Kellogg

31:48

and you know there's not a lot of studies

31:51

that use incandescent bulbs

31:53

from what I can see therapeutically

31:55

, because one of the things is that photobiomodulation

31:59

is a non-thermal light

32:02

therapy , so it's very specific , and

32:04

so they excluded any kind of incandescent

32:06

heat lamp or any kind of incandescent source

32:08

unless it's like filtered

32:10

and doesn't emit heat . So sometimes

32:12

they use broadband sources for photobiomodulation

32:16

, but it's kind of rare because it's

32:18

kind of restricted how they can

32:20

even use it . But you know , there

32:22

might be merits of that . On

32:25

the contrary , like one of the

32:27

textbooks I have on light therapy , they

32:29

kind of say like whatever you can do

32:31

, that like is the opposite

32:33

of sunlight , of like . You know

32:35

, lasers are truly monochromatic

32:38

, meaning they kind of have , you know , one

32:40

wavelength . If you say a laser is 633

32:43

nanometers , because of

32:45

the nature of the material they use the

32:47

helium , neon , laser or whatever

32:49

diode you use , and so you can

32:52

only produce specific wavelengths . So

32:54

sometimes you keep seeing the same wavelengths over

32:56

and over , just because that's what the technology

32:58

has designed . So

33:01

we're kind of limited . You know we can't just say , oh

33:03

, I need a 622 laser

33:05

. You know that might not exist , but

33:07

it's hard to adjust the wavelength on some of

33:09

these lasers . So they're truly

33:12

monochromatic . Leds

33:14

are called quasi monochromatic

33:16

, which means quasi , just means like nah

33:18

. So it's not monochromatic

33:20

. They've got a peak wavelength , like

33:23

we could say 633

33:25

or 630 . And then they've got a plus

33:27

or minus of a spectrum . You

33:29

know 15 , you know 20 nanometers

33:32

on either side . That's kind of a little bit of

33:34

a broader spectrum than in laser

33:37

. So there's even , you know , a lot of debate

33:40

in the industry of like , oh , our laser

33:42

is better , or LEDs are better

33:44

at , you know , stimulating certain things , or if

33:46

you really need a specific single wavelength

33:48

, then the laser would be better , you

33:50

know . So you get a little bit broader with LEDs

33:52

and then obviously with incandescence

33:55

they follow the Planck's laws , the

33:57

black body irradiation laws , which I

33:59

think maybe Scott mentioned . But any

34:01

object that's above , you know

34:03

, zero Kelvin , above , you know , absolute

34:06

freezing , is emitting

34:08

infrared . So all objects

34:11

are bodies . You know , if I have an infrared camera

34:13

, my body will be . You know , lighting up

34:15

with infrared that it's emitting

34:17

infrared . So all objects are emitting

34:19

some infrared . The hotter you get , the

34:22

more kind of shorter wavelengths you get

34:24

, and you keep getting hotter

34:26

and hotter and that's why you get like a 2700

34:29

Kelvin filament and that's producing

34:31

a lot of , you know , the visual spectrum

34:34

and that's why incandescent works . And

34:36

then you get sunlight which is , you know , burning around

34:38

5500 Kelvin

34:41

and that's why you get the . You know the

34:43

spectrum of sunlight is , you know

34:45

, I think it's kind of centered around , you

34:48

know , the green to the red range

34:50

, of getting that peak , but then it

34:52

kind of tapers off and it's got this broad spectrum

34:55

. So , and then the sunlight

34:57

is also filtered by our atmosphere

34:59

and that's big point too , of like the

35:03

water in the atmosphere is filtering out a

35:05

lot of the heat wavelengths that we

35:08

would experience as heat . So when you use an incandescent

35:10

heat lamp that's not filtered

35:12

by water or atmosphere , so

35:14

you get a lot more heat from incandescent

35:17

bulb . Or you know the red

35:20

heat lamps with the red coating , because

35:23

they're emitting wavelengths

35:25

that would normally be filtered by the atmosphere

35:27

. And there's even some studies that show

35:29

those wavelengths that get filtered by the atmosphere

35:31

. Those are non native wavelengths

35:33

the 750 , which gets filtered by oxygen

35:36

in the atmosphere . In the 950

35:38

, they found specifically have inhibitory

35:41

photobiomodulation effects . That

35:43

again , if you , if you just use an incandescent

35:46

bulb , that could have some inhibitory

35:48

wavelengths in it as well . So

35:50

the nice thing with LEDs and

35:53

maybe lasers , we can select , you know , the wavelengths

35:55

that are . Just , we want to be stimulatory

35:57

or have certain benefits . So

35:59

whenever we design , you know

36:01

, an LED panel , we might skip over the

36:04

850 , the 750s

36:06

, will skip over the mid 700s and we'll

36:08

skip over , you know , probably the 900s , even

36:11

though some studies use 900 nanometer , nanometer

36:14

lasers . So

36:16

you can kind of debate it both

36:18

sides of the way of like which one's more

36:20

therapeutic , which one mimics sunlight

36:23

more or less , and sometimes things

36:25

that don't mimic sunlight have a stronger

36:27

hormetic kind of stress response that

36:29

you could use therapeutically , like if we have

36:31

unnatural pulse

36:34

electromagnetic frequencies . You know some

36:36

of these PMF devices . They kind

36:38

of work on that hormesis thing of creating

36:40

a small stress response but can

36:43

produce some sort of healing . So some of the

36:45

studies say , oh , you know , if it's less

36:47

like sunlight it's more stimulatory , but

36:49

it has a stronger kind of double

36:52

edge stored that you can be more inhibitory

36:54

of something that's not natural with incandescent

36:57

lighting and it's very hard

36:59

to overdose because it's a little

37:01

bit more of a natural thing . So you can enjoy

37:04

it for longer periods of time and

37:06

you know kind of kind of get that balance

37:08

of wavelengths and benefits .

37:11

Yeah , great , great answer . And that's very

37:13

interesting to me , the fact that there

37:15

are numbers or regions

37:17

of that net of electromagnetic spectrum that

37:19

contain essentially non native

37:21

750 or what they're about

37:24

, and that would have inhibitory effects on

37:26

mitochondrial function . And it just

37:28

goes to show how fraught

37:30

it is to necessarily

37:33

replace the whole nuances

37:36

of the sunlight spectrum . And the

37:38

fact is , yeah , the

37:40

sun has done it the best and but

37:43

, yeah , thanks , that's very , very interesting . It

37:45

gets to a point that

37:47

I have I

37:49

thinking more and more about , which is why

37:52

is it that isolated blue wavelength

37:54

and we know this for a fact is so

37:57

harmful to our biology on

37:59

so many different levels ? And yet

38:01

the debt we're

38:03

getting , we essentially using and harnessing

38:05

isolated red and

38:07

near infrared . What are your thoughts on

38:10

why ? There is a disconnect here between

38:12

the inherent harm

38:14

of isolated blue and and I'll make the

38:16

point that it's not to do with the LED emission

38:18

, and LED is just light technology

38:20

that has allowed us to harness different

38:22

light wavelengths . It's not necessarily

38:24

to the LED , is to do with the specific

38:26

wavelength of light emitted

38:29

.

38:30

Right , and with the LED technology

38:33

, it was interesting how it got developed . Was

38:35

you know , in a various stadium or whatever

38:37

that science channel , they just went over a big

38:40

how the other

38:42

blue LED was designed . It was very hard

38:45

to produce the blue wavelengths as being

38:47

like a shorter wavelength . The first LEDs that

38:49

were invented were actually near infrared

38:51

and red , and the blue

38:53

LEDs only came later , and so

38:56

a lot of yeah , I get a lot of pushback of like oh , leds

38:58

are inherently bad because they always emit blue

39:01

light , which , like , is just not the case

39:03

. So LEDs , they emit

39:06

a specific wavelength based on the

39:08

semiconductor , the diode that

39:10

you use . So you can only get specific

39:13

wavelengths out of different types of diodes

39:15

and that's why we have different isolated

39:17

wavelengths from different types of LEDs

39:19

. But what they did

39:21

was once they developed the blue LED and they

39:23

made it highly efficient , then they

39:25

put a , a phosphor over the

39:27

blue LEDs that made

39:30

more of a broad spectrum . So that's why we get

39:32

white light bulbs from blue LEDs

39:34

. So the blue , the

39:36

white LEDs are based on a blue

39:38

diode and then they have a phosphor

39:41

that creates the rest of the spectrum . You

39:43

know some of the greens and some of the reds

39:45

to give us the optical illusion of being

39:47

, you know , a white light bulb . Basically

39:49

, when you combine red , green and blue you basically

39:52

get white . So we can kind of create

39:54

that and then we can create different color temperatures

39:56

, that what they call of you know , color corrected

39:58

temperatures . Of you know more

40:01

or less warmer red , warmer white

40:03

lights versus , you know , the cooler

40:06

white lights that you know

40:08

run at a higher , that

40:10

look like a higher incandescent temperature

40:13

. So once you get , you

40:15

get these peaks of blue from you know

40:17

artificial blue , you know LED

40:19

bulbs and you know , just

40:21

in general , we can use blue LEDs

40:24

therapeutically , just the pure blue . But

40:27

you know they are found that blue

40:30

light is that shorter wavelength that's got

40:32

a higher . You know electron volts

40:34

per . You know photo time and

40:37

so it's much more reactive , you know , because

40:39

it's right next to ultraviolet , which

40:41

we know is this has highly photochemical

40:43

responses , and so that's where

40:45

you really have to . Either balance

40:47

it out , you know , with some of the more

40:50

you know stimulatory healing wavelengths

40:52

like the reds and the near infrared , or

40:54

you need to do blue and UV and very

40:56

short , smaller doses . So

40:58

you can use blue light therapeutically . Sometimes

41:01

they use it in dermatology , like for killing acne

41:03

, you know , and , but we

41:05

can appreciate it's killing something on

41:07

our skin and so it's a

41:09

small dose . Blue light , you know , like you said

41:11

, it can even just the signals to our

41:13

eye , you know , messes up our melatonin

41:15

production . It keeps us awake at night . You

41:18

know it's bad for kind of our overall sleep

41:21

. But we do need blue light during the

41:23

day to wake us up , to shut off

41:25

the melatonin production in the morning and

41:27

, you know , have our circadian rhythms

41:29

correct . But the photo bio

41:31

modulation of blue light is that it's

41:34

very easy to get an inhibitory

41:36

dose on your cells , on your mitochondria

41:39

, either from the photochemical

41:41

reactions or just how highly reacted

41:43

it is . So even

41:45

the dermatology studies , they seem . You

41:47

know it's much safer to combine , you know

41:49

, blue and red LEDs or blue and

41:51

red and near infrared with with

41:54

that if you really need the blue for some sort of therapeutic

41:56

. Yeah , you know , with the biphasic dose

41:58

response is kind of a fancy way

42:00

of talking about . You know

42:02

that too much of anything is a

42:04

bad thing . So we like red light

42:07

therapy . It's good for our cells , good for our

42:09

mitochondria , but there's always kind

42:11

of this inverted U shape that

42:13

you get from Hormesis , the Hormetic

42:15

Curve . Sometimes it's called the Arnold

42:17

Schultz law but it's just this concept that

42:20

you can overdose on red light

42:22

therapy . The good thing with red light therapy

42:24

most of the time when we say overdose it

42:26

just means a kind of a lack of benefits

42:28

. So you know red light therapy is

42:30

extremely safe . You know we can talk about that

42:32

. You know as long as you don't use excessive intensities

42:35

that cause a lot of heating . You know burning

42:37

and you know just really

42:39

if you really get too high of a dose

42:41

with red light therapy you can cause apoptosis

42:44

. So you know , in the cells

42:46

and signal kind of cell death . But

42:48

with red light therapy we want to stay

42:50

in that lower dose and lower intensity

42:52

range for that stimulatory response

42:55

that helps upregulate . You know the cell proliferation

42:58

, the healing , the anti inflammatory mechanisms

43:00

. You know all those great mechanisms

43:02

come from lower doses . So a lot

43:04

of people you know you might assume things

43:07

. You might assume you want longer doses

43:09

. You know bigger doses , you want

43:11

to do it really frequently . But that's been

43:13

shown . You know in a lot of the

43:15

studies and in the science that you know

43:17

more isn't better and that a lot of times less

43:19

is more . You know less is better . So

43:21

if you can kind of do it , you know , and

43:24

you know I publish a lot of the

43:26

dosing ranges and intensity ranges

43:28

on my Instagram and on

43:31

blogs and things like that that

43:33

you know you want to stay within a certain range . So they

43:35

find like anywhere from two to

43:37

10 joules per centimeter squared . That's your

43:39

energy delivery . That's

43:42

kind of the sweet spot for getting a

43:44

stimulatory response in

43:46

most types of cells . But

43:48

it gets really complicated because if you've got

43:50

thick skin and you're trying to reach a tissue

43:52

that's deeper in , maybe you need a higher

43:55

dose to get enough energy

43:57

to those deeper tissues . So sometimes the

43:59

doses can go up to , you know , say

44:01

, 50 or 60 joules per centimeter squared

44:03

where where you maybe you're doing a lot

44:05

on the skin but you might get some

44:08

of that energy deeper in . So you

44:10

know there's a lot of these parameters . But in

44:12

general you know it's not

44:14

about like really doing big doses and trying

44:17

to get kind of a short term result

44:19

. It's more about , you know , being consistent with

44:21

it , using low doses over a period of

44:23

time , doing it , at least you know

44:25

, two or three times a week , you know

44:28

, if you want to do it every day of the week you might want to reduce

44:30

, you know that dosing , but

44:33

Overall , yeah , it's one of those things

44:35

that more isn't better and it's been

44:37

kind of a thing I've had to talk about a

44:40

lot because you know the marketing is just

44:42

there that you need really high intensities

44:44

, you need really high doses and you

44:46

know maybe that feels really good in the short term

44:48

. But I think you know you don't want

44:50

to miss out on some of those longer term kind

44:52

of Stimulatory responses

44:55

that then you know doing red light therapy

44:57

responsibly and in moderation will

44:59

get you those those better long term results

45:01

. Yeah , you know and just a disclaimer

45:04

, you know I can't make medical claims or give

45:06

medical advice , but just in

45:08

general you know it's been studied for

45:10

just almost unbelievable

45:12

range of benefits and diseases

45:15

and indications . You know , starting back

45:17

with , you know things like wound healing . You

45:21

know that's been very apparent for a long time

45:23

. Then you know using using these doses

45:25

can improve wound healing and

45:27

even like very importantly

45:29

of like certain like diabetic wounds and things

45:31

like that that's becoming more prevalent . So

45:34

you know it's wounds that are very hard

45:36

to heal that once you know in the conventional

45:38

treatments aren't working , that they can use red

45:40

light therapy for those , you know , just

45:42

general inflammation and flamed areas , areas

45:45

of pain . It's good for pain

45:47

and pain management and that's , you

45:49

know . An interesting point that we know that by

45:51

phase of curve works is that they

45:54

use higher doses to inhibit

45:56

nerve cells , to create temporary

45:58

anesthesia , to

46:01

temporarily block pain

46:03

receptors . So it's , they

46:05

purposely use the inhibitory

46:07

response of higher doses

46:09

and sometimes higher intensities to

46:12

blocks or nerve signals . So but

46:14

for red light therapy , and you know , but that's

46:16

more of a temporary pain relief

46:18

if you really got some sort of big issue

46:20

and or you know , I think one

46:22

researcher did it on his tooth

46:25

instead of using a numbing agent . But

46:28

you know , you kind of sacrificed

46:30

the longer term healing . So you still get pain

46:32

reduction and inflammation reduction from using

46:34

proper low doses , but you have to do

46:36

it consistently over time for that long

46:38

term , you know , more of a healing response

46:41

. So that's , that's the key . So , but

46:43

anyway , so pain , you know , inflammation , all

46:45

those , all those things . But it gets into

46:47

athletic recovery , getting

46:50

circulation , getting more nitric oxide

46:52

production , getting more ATP to the muscles

46:54

. So it's used kind of both ways you

46:56

could use it before an athletic

46:58

event or after an athletic event for

47:00

brain health , like it's just going to be huge

47:03

is going to be amazing that they've used

47:05

it for Parkinson's , for Alzheimer's

47:08

, for TBI , for

47:10

you know , mood disorders , depression

47:13

, traumatic kind of situations

47:16

and it , you know those

47:18

are all going to be a huge area . You know

47:20

you start to see the helmet units and units

47:23

that that you treat , you know , your head

47:25

or parts of your skull . You know

47:27

in a lot of studies you can do it pretty simply just

47:29

by targeting your foreheads , targeting

47:31

your temples , so you can get

47:33

, you know , a lot of benefits just by doing

47:36

it on the face and doing it on the forehead . So

47:39

the brain health stuff is going to be huge . The eye

47:41

health , you know research

47:43

is going to be huge and you know

47:45

, with eye health first , you know you want to subtract

47:47

Maybe it's the artificial

47:50

blue light from your environment , but

47:52

it , you know , with eye health , a couple

47:54

studies have gone viral of just doing

47:56

three minutes of red light therapy in the

47:58

mornings . It seems to work best when you

48:00

do it in the morning of getting some

48:02

low intensity red light in the eyes

48:05

can help with . You know it helped

48:07

with . You know that's what study is . So that's what study specifically

48:09

was more kind of like color

48:11

definition and just kind of some

48:13

general visual clarity . But

48:16

you know it's going to be a big research topic because

48:18

our eyes have a lot of mitochondria . They

48:20

rely on these photoreceptors and

48:22

proper health and oxygen oxygenation

48:25

. So you know the

48:27

eye health is going to be huge skin health

48:29

. So we've already , you know , a big area of cosmetology

48:33

and dermatology of . You

48:35

know , improving wrinkles and anti

48:38

aging and all those nice benefits

48:40

for our skincare . You

48:43

know what else and

48:45

the gray hair . Yeah , hair

48:47

spend a big one and you know there's a lot of really

48:49

good studies of using the hair

48:51

helmets . You know , most of the time

48:53

I think there are a laser hair helmet and they

48:55

use red wavelengths and

48:58

you know , with the hair growth seems to

49:00

be a good model for for biphasic

49:02

dose response , because we don't want to inhibit

49:04

those , those hair follicles . So

49:07

they always do them every other day for dosing

49:09

but and it takes kind of a longer

49:11

term kind of thing . It takes at least six months

49:13

to start to see a little bit more of that hair

49:16

growth metabolism . But

49:18

yeah , I was just thinking of , you know , sleep

49:20

is a big one , like you mentioned

49:22

. You know we , we build a lot of the melatonin

49:25

in our cells and that acts as

49:27

a powerful antioxidant . So

49:29

we build it by our mitochondria

49:31

from near infrared stimulation . That

49:33

Scott has gone over and he's done the

49:35

research on , on I think , and so

49:38

that acts as a powerful antioxidant

49:40

and that helps with our sleep and circadian

49:42

rhythm . You know I always say using red light therapy

49:44

in the mornings is kind of a stand

49:46

in for some of that bright light therapy or if you

49:49

can't access sunlight in the mornings , that

49:51

if you aim it at your face and you get that bright

49:53

red light that you know . That helps me

49:55

for kind of waking up , getting the alertness

49:58

in the mornings and getting stimulated the

50:00

right ways . That's much

50:02

safer than a lot of the bright

50:04

light therapies that use blue lights or white , you

50:06

know , strong white lights based on LEDs and

50:08

fluorescence , you know . So

50:10

using that as kind of a sleep aid

50:13

, you know , and some people , yeah , they use it at night

50:15

and it's very relaxing and helps them sleep . So

50:18

that's , you know that's always a good thing , kind of just overall

50:21

energy levels and recovery

50:23

and just kind of feeling , feeling good and feeling

50:25

your best . But yeah , there's so many

50:27

different areas thyroid , you know , metabolism

50:30

and mitochondrial function . Of that you

50:32

know sometimes you can treat the thyroid or

50:34

treat , you know , just your body . First , systemic

50:36

effects . Some of the studies

50:39

show , you know , red light therapy

50:41

has a systemic effect

50:43

. So you talk , you know we talk about

50:45

it improves circulation , improves

50:48

lymph flow , so you can target your lymph

50:50

nodes and try to get , you know , better lymph

50:52

flow that way . But also

50:54

it gets into your bloodstream . We have these

50:56

cell free mitochondria in

50:58

our bloodstream . That was only recently discovered

51:00

and that is a good explanation

51:02

for why red light therapy works

51:05

systemically , that no matter where you

51:07

target red light therapy , it's getting into your bloodstream

51:09

and it's having kind of an overall systemic

51:11

effect as well . So you can , even with

51:13

relatively localized treatment , you

51:16

know it does benefit other

51:18

areas . One study they

51:20

did two cuts on like a forearm

51:22

and they only treated one cut , but

51:25

the other cut healed faster than the

51:27

control group that didn't get any treatments

51:29

at all . So the untreated

51:31

cut also heals faster , just by

51:33

systemic mechanisms . So it's

51:36

pretty remarkable that way and you can capitalize

51:38

on more systemic treatments by

51:40

treating the tibia or any kind of superficial

51:42

bones , so your shin bone , your

51:44

sternum , your forehead , where

51:46

we have these superficial bones , and that

51:49

can help stimulate stem

51:51

cell production and that helps . You

51:53

know they've done that , they treated the tibia

51:55

and like rats , and it helps with heart health

51:57

and it helps with brain health and so

51:59

that's really amazing that you don't even need to target

52:02

the brain at all and still get systemic

52:04

benefits . And then the gut

52:06

also is the gut microbiome

52:09

and reducing inflammation in the gut or

52:11

or however it reaches . It

52:13

probably doesn't actually reach , like you know , the intestines

52:15

, but you know wherever

52:17

you target there's kind of bystander effects

52:19

. So I try to caution people . You don't

52:21

need these high intensities and you don't need to blast

52:24

yourself that as long as you target

52:26

over that area you don't have

52:28

to worry too much about getting that penetration

52:30

. I got to blast myself but

52:32

you know there's bystander effects

52:34

and you know nearby cells kind of you

52:37

know it propagates through and helps benefit

52:39

nearby cells . And then so

52:41

when you improved your gut health , your gut inflammation

52:44

, that also benefits your brain , you know

52:46

. So they're starting to do combination treatments

52:48

. When they do brain health studies

52:50

they're going to do the brain and do the gut

52:52

, or maybe they'll do the brain and the tibia

52:54

. So that's how you can really maximize

52:57

your benefits without again , you

52:59

know , I have to blast my brain . You

53:02

can target your brain with a low

53:04

dose but then also target your gut

53:06

and your tibia with a low dose and again

53:08

, just try to build up those benefits .

53:12

And on the topic of these systemic benefits

53:14

of localized therapy

53:16

or at local application

53:18

, I immediately thinking about one

53:20

study that was done by Glenn Jeffrey at the

53:23

beginning of the year that

53:25

showed only 15 minutes of 670

53:28

meter visible red light on the screen Prior

53:32

to doing a glucose tolerance test was

53:35

able to significantly reduce

53:37

the basically the curve of an oral glucose

53:39

tolerance test , and

53:41

what that means in translation for

53:43

people is that we use we

53:45

basically give people 75 grams of glucose

53:48

drink to as

53:50

a diagnostic test to investigate things like insulin

53:52

resistance and make diagnoses of type 2 diabetes , and

53:56

what this study showed was that red

53:58

light 670 nanometer light was

54:01

able to essentially up regulate

54:03

mitochondrial functions such that it was reducing

54:05

blood glucose levels . So

54:08

I think that is a very elegant description

54:11

or example of what you've described in terms

54:13

of a potentially systemic benefit of getting red light , and

54:18

obviously you can use a panel and maybe

54:20

anyone who's living in a city who

54:23

has diabetes or polycystic

54:25

ovary syndrome or fatty liver

54:27

disease , whatever , could basically

54:30

treat themselves with a biomodulation device

54:32

prior to living their life . Maybe they don't want to make too many

54:34

dietary changes and

54:37

obviously I'd always encourage going out in the sunlight

54:40

and moving out

54:42

of the metropolitan areas , but it just goes to show

54:44

that's an option and that

54:46

the power of light to affect metabolic health

54:48

, yeah , yeah .

54:51

And that , yeah , that study just published officially

54:53

just a couple of weeks ago and

54:56

it's already made into a couple of the medical news website so

55:00

it's already gone kind of viral and yeah

55:03

, the MedCram channel covered it late last year . But

55:07

yeah , it's a really remarkable finding and

55:09

maybe that's part of what has drawn me towards

55:11

red light therapy and stuff with my

55:13

weight issues and blood sugar issues and just

55:17

starting to feel better and feel a little bit more regulated

55:19

when you have that red light therapy . And

55:22

yeah , you can time it where , if you , you know , if you

55:24

do red light therapy in the mornings , you

55:26

know that can hopefully set up your metabolism

55:29

for the red for the rest of the day . Or

55:32

, you know , as the study did , they did it about 45

55:34

minutes before taking the glucose and that helps kind

55:36

of ride because a lot of the benefits of red light therapy happen

55:38

Even

55:42

three to six hours after a

55:44

red light therapy session has ended . So you

55:47

get a peak of stimulation of ATP production

55:49

and in a lot of these metabolites , you know , after red

55:51

light therapy has ended . So and you know , I think that's

55:53

a good point of like , people want kind of instant gratification and instant

55:55

results , but

56:01

a lot of the benefits come from , you know , after , after

56:03

it's been done , and you know doing it with like that consistency . So

56:08

, and you know , if you , if you get your metabolism

56:10

right and your mitochondria right , then yeah

56:12

, it's going to help your blood sugar . There's been other studies

56:15

with diabetic patients with

56:17

the ulcers

56:19

and on the legs and just

56:22

in general . You know the electron

56:24

transport chain is reliant on

56:27

proper glucose metabolism

56:29

. One other study showed

56:31

that it requires glucose in your

56:33

system to work for

56:35

red light therapy to even work . That's the basic , you

56:38

know component of you know how that

56:41

aspect of metabolism works and

56:43

so you need glucose in the system . So I saw

56:45

one blog that kind of took it a little too literally

56:47

of like , oh , do red light therapy

56:49

while you eat or , like you know , just before

56:51

, and I'm like we , most

56:54

people , already have plenty of glucose in their

56:56

system so we don't need to , like , take

56:58

a dose of glucose just for red light therapy

57:00

to work . But you know it is an interesting

57:03

aspect of how , how it

57:05

works , that maybe if there could

57:07

be situations where injecting a little

57:09

extra glucose could , could boost the benefits

57:11

, and there's . You know a lot of people

57:14

talk about trying to synergize red light therapy

57:16

with a methylene

57:18

blue and with you know I've seen

57:20

other studies . We've seen other studies on CoQ10

57:23

, which is also very good for supporting mitochondrial

57:25

health , with niacinamide

57:28

. With you know , we just

57:30

generally need a well rounded diet

57:32

, to you know , and do proper

57:34

exercise and do all that stuff , because

57:36

red light therapy is so holistic with our

57:38

diet and our lifestyle , then it

57:40

really compounds a lot

57:42

of the benefits of whatever you're trying to do

57:45

with your health . Then it really stacks

57:47

as just a great addition to any health

57:49

routine .

57:50

Yeah , amazing , and I really want to hammer

57:53

a home a point which is one that I've talked about a lot

57:55

of my podcast , which is the influence

57:57

of the environment on metabolism and

58:00

having come from a diet

58:02

centric paradigm of

58:04

treating and reversing metabolic disease

58:06

, which is what the kind

58:08

of the major part

58:10

of doctors who are reversing diabetes

58:12

are purely doing it with diet . And

58:15

the point that I think that

58:17

I really like to emphasize is how important

58:19

not only the inputs to the mitochondria

58:21

are in terms of food and they're obviously

58:24

the electron inputs that

58:26

we get through food but the

58:28

actual environment that those mitochondria

58:30

are existing in , particularly light and temperature . And

58:33

I interviewed Dr Thomas Segar

58:35

, who is a engineer as well , who has

58:37

done a heap of research on ice baths , and

58:39

he made the observation that

58:41

he could get into

58:44

ketosis and he could pull

58:46

a whole heap of glucose out of his system if

58:48

he'd eaten a cake or something like this by simply

58:51

a couple of minutes in his ice bath . So

58:55

what that is we can think

58:57

about is both the temperature

58:59

and light is massively

59:02

modulating the mass of modulators

59:05

of mitochondrial function , mitochondrial

59:07

efficiency , and if we

59:09

can get those two inputs dialed , then

59:11

what Dr Jack Kruse has said for the

59:14

past 10 , 20 years is that it

59:16

matters less what you're putting in your mouth

59:18

and more about the

59:21

context that those mitochondria are existing in . So

59:23

if the coolant system of the mitochondria are

59:26

working , if

59:28

the lubrication system of the mitochondria are

59:30

working , if all

59:32

those other givens are

59:34

dialed , then there is some latitude that we've

59:36

got in terms of kind

59:39

of the food and , like you said , andrew , it's not an

59:41

excuse to go out and

59:43

drink the two

59:45

liters of Gatorade

59:48

and eat the Taco

59:50

Bell Mountain Dew Pie , but

59:53

it is just another way of

59:55

modulating our metabolism . And again

59:58

, sunlight is always what I'm going to

1:00:00

be emphasizing , but this is just a tool

1:00:02

in the toolkit . And can

1:00:04

you , can you speak specifically about

1:00:06

two topics that I really

1:00:09

am interested in currently ? One of them is skin preparation and

1:00:12

there's evidence that red

1:00:14

light prior to the right to UV

1:00:16

light exposure and basically

1:00:18

reduces erythema of UVB induced

1:00:21

sunburn . Are you aware of

1:00:23

those particular studies or can you speak to the

1:00:25

value of red light in terms of preparing

1:00:28

the skin for

1:00:31

ultraviolet light ?

1:00:32

Yeah , yeah , and that was in

1:00:34

a really good paper called infrared and skin

1:00:36

friend or foe . That you can

1:00:39

read for free on online is a really

1:00:41

great study that goes over a lot of that with

1:00:43

the Cellular kind of preconditioning

1:00:46

, so any kind of Assault

1:00:49

on your cells . You know stress poisons

1:00:51

, you know literally some

1:00:53

. Sometimes they use like red light

1:00:55

therapy before some sort of poison . You know a

1:00:57

mitochondrial poison like cyanide supports

1:01:00

the mitochondrial health better at

1:01:02

that tolerating certain poison , and

1:01:04

the same thing goes with Ultraviolet

1:01:07

. So we , you know , we know we want to be out in the sunlight

1:01:09

, but in the early morning we

1:01:11

get preferentially Red and

1:01:13

ear and Fred , the way the sunlight is filtered through

1:01:15

the atmosphere . So that's why we get more

1:01:18

red and ear and Fred in the mornings and

1:01:20

then that can set us up . You know , for

1:01:22

Almost it has an SPF

1:01:24

kind of protection that some studies say that

1:01:27

red and ear and Fred light before UV

1:01:29

, your sunlight has almost like a SPF

1:01:31

15 . So it's not you know , you're

1:01:33

full , your full kind of protection , but

1:01:35

it gives you a little bit of extra protection

1:01:37

. It's sometimes it seems to help produce

1:01:40

more melanin in the skin as

1:01:42

as that means of protection . So you

1:01:45

know , I kind of dug into some of the Dermatology

1:01:48

stuff . If you don't want a hyperpigmentation

1:01:51

response , you might need to avoid

1:01:53

Red and in the UV

1:01:55

and the blue exposure because it'll

1:01:57

actually increase your , your melanin response

1:02:00

, which you know for most of time . For most

1:02:02

people that don't have that issue

1:02:04

, that's great . We can build up a better

1:02:06

kind of tan that's more protective

1:02:08

of sunlight and UV . So

1:02:11

, yeah , there's a lot of good , good studies

1:02:13

on using red and ear and Fred before

1:02:15

some sort of UV or even a blue light , you

1:02:17

know , and there's studies are starting to show

1:02:20

of the blue light having an impact

1:02:22

on Creating melanin in the skin

1:02:24

too . So yeah , that's that's

1:02:26

always a good thing of Trying to combine

1:02:28

red and your friend with the UV and

1:02:30

blue , which you know would have been found

1:02:32

in nature anyway .

1:02:35

Yeah , and there's some . I'm not

1:02:37

sure if you're , if you're planning to make a device

1:02:39

like this , but some people have , I

1:02:41

believe , on the market have made a UV

1:02:44

device that has a couple of wavelengths of UV

1:02:46

, but they've also added red and near infrared

1:02:48

just to make a more appropriate

1:02:51

Kind of UV , kind

1:02:54

of tanning lamp . The other thought thought that I had

1:02:56

is people who are using Isolated

1:02:58

UV for vitamin D and you

1:03:00

put you probably just use it outside in the morning

1:03:03

to also get those benefits

1:03:05

.

1:03:06

Yeah , yeah , you know it's . It's

1:03:08

gonna be interesting of trying to combine you at different

1:03:10

wavelengths of UV and red and your friend , you

1:03:14

know there's some restrictions for what I can

1:03:16

and can't do , depending on FDA . You

1:03:18

know classification of UV and the

1:03:21

eye health issues and you know if you use it wrong

1:03:23

then then you could damage your skin or your eyes . So

1:03:26

there's more FDA regulations on making

1:03:28

UV devices . So I used , like , the spurty

1:03:30

lamp , because

1:03:33

they do have some sort of FDA clearance

1:03:35

and they've done some studies in , you know . But I do have my red lights

1:03:38

kind of next to it . So

1:03:40

I kind of do both at the same time or

1:03:42

I do the red first and then I rotate to the , to the UV , and turn

1:03:44

that on After

1:03:47

I've done the red for a couple minutes .

1:03:49

Yeah , and there is evidence again of . I

1:03:52

want to make the point of this idea of photo

1:03:54

aging that occurs with , with isolated blue light

1:03:56

and and maybe the whole Idea

1:04:00

of using sunscreen is that block UV

1:04:02

but let these high energy photons from

1:04:04

the adjacent visible light spectrum of blue and

1:04:07

and you people are kind of tricked into Lying

1:04:12

out in the sun for all hours of the day

1:04:14

in the midday that's how the sun's used in Australia essentially , and

1:04:16

yet you're probably contributing to photo aging

1:04:18

and possibly A

1:04:22

Zimmerman has mentioned and possible basal cell

1:04:24

carcinoma , just based on the dynamics of the absorption of of that light

1:04:26

. So , and yeah , it's , it's interesting , just it

1:04:28

, just it's

1:04:32

how much home in the point that we have to be careful with

1:04:34

with visible blue , because it's it is that they are high energy , it's so close to UV

1:04:39

and and it's always been balanced with red

1:04:41

and infrared . So , yeah , that that's a . That's a very interesting point

1:04:46

. And and circling back to what I mentioned

1:04:48

earlier about and blue regulating melanin and production

1:04:50

, that is , that there is a pathway that I can

1:04:53

mention via in Kefal option that

1:04:55

regulates Melanogenesis

1:04:59

and and this idea that maybe the rise of melanoma

1:05:01

that we're seeing is actually a function of everyone's

1:05:03

artificial light exposure and Jack

1:05:07

Cruz made the point and I thought think this is such

1:05:09

an elegant proof is that the fastest growing type

1:05:11

of melanoma is UV

1:05:14

melanoma . So it's an ocular . It's

1:05:16

an ocular melanoma , meaning it's an eye , and Everyone

1:05:20

is basically and I say everyone

1:05:22

kind of hyper in with hyperbole . But the vast majority of people are Looking at their

1:05:24

screens all day and

1:05:27

you know whatever ? 90 something percent of East Asians in

1:05:29

Korea and Japan and China have some form of myopia . So

1:05:32

it makes sense that If

1:05:36

we are observing this rise in UV melanoma and which is the

1:05:38

most common ocular

1:05:41

malignancy , then we

1:05:43

can . It's fitting the pieces in that that isolated blue

1:05:45

light is is playing , playing a role in . Can

1:05:48

you talk about osteoporosis , because that

1:05:51

is , and what you know about the evidence

1:05:53

around using red light therapy for osteoporosis ? Because

1:05:56

the bone is a deep structure . It

1:05:58

might be one of those examples where we need

1:06:00

perhaps closer skin contact

1:06:02

or higher energy to get down there . And

1:06:05

do you have or do you know of the evidence for

1:06:07

improving bone mineral density in osteopenia and osteoporosis

1:06:09

?

1:06:11

I haven't know , I haven't seen . You know I haven't

1:06:13

reviewed or dug deep into the science on osteoporosis . You know

1:06:15

it's one of those areas that it could

1:06:18

help support . Like

1:06:21

you said , it's hard to reach some of those deeper areas

1:06:23

more directly but

1:06:26

we could still , you know , support our health . If you

1:06:29

know , if there's areas of inflammation

1:06:31

and areas that could be eroding , you know , the bone health and things like

1:06:33

that that

1:06:35

you could use red light therapy more systemically

1:06:38

to help just kind of support your body systems , to support

1:06:40

the bone health . So

1:06:43

, yeah , I think you know there's a lot of potential for that

1:06:45

. I think you know if you

1:06:47

have to target a specific bone , then yeah , that that's where you have

1:06:49

to look at how do we get the deeper penetration ? Use

1:06:53

the near infrared wavelengths , use the , you

1:06:55

know , skin contact method to help compress

1:06:58

the skin a little bit . But , you know

1:07:00

, still just focus on on lower doses

1:07:02

and try to just get that simulator response

1:07:04

and do it over a longer period of time . But

1:07:08

yeah , I haven't haven't really dug into that

1:07:10

science .

1:07:10

No worries . And what about thyroid ? Because

1:07:13

thyroid dysfunction is very

1:07:15

common and again on another

1:07:17

whole topic , but benefits

1:07:19

of thyroid specific therapy

1:07:21

that you can share .

1:07:23

Yeah , I mean I've heard mostly antidote

1:07:26

anecdotes . I'm not sure how many studies

1:07:28

are specific for targeting the thyroid

1:07:30

, but it seems like , yeah , a lot of people get

1:07:32

success if they use their red light device

1:07:34

. You know the thyroid is a pretty kind of superficial

1:07:37

gland or organ , that's that's

1:07:39

you know we can access with reds and near infrared

1:07:41

. So sometimes even red might be safer because

1:07:44

you don't want that deep penetration from your infrared

1:07:46

. So a little bit of red and getting that stimulatory

1:07:48

response and again , just focus on your

1:07:50

whole body , your inflammation markers and

1:07:53

things like that , then red light therapy will

1:07:55

manage anyway . So you

1:07:57

just do a small dose on your thyroid and then focus

1:08:00

on more systemic effects and you

1:08:02

know , for any conditions you

1:08:04

know you might want to work with your doctor or work with a practitioner

1:08:07

to monitor your thyroid levels , if

1:08:09

you need to adjust medications or

1:08:11

just you know how you're approaching it or your lifestyle

1:08:13

, and you know , just monitor that

1:08:15

and then that's ideally how

1:08:17

you would dose . You know any therapy , like

1:08:20

red light therapy , of like okay , my markers

1:08:22

are working in the right direction and so

1:08:24

I'm doing red light therapy the right way for this

1:08:26

condition . So that might be a

1:08:28

very interesting way to do red light

1:08:30

therapy . But yeah , sometimes it's listed

1:08:33

, as you know , an area of concern for

1:08:35

you know , if you have a thyroid condition they could

1:08:37

stimulate the thyroid , which you know

1:08:39

we think is a good thing . But if you're already on

1:08:41

medication or you're managing it in other ways

1:08:44

, it could interfere with that . So just

1:08:46

be cautious of how you can introduce it . There

1:08:48

was one study on kind

1:08:50

of neck skin , kind of health and reducing wrinkles

1:08:53

around the neck and they did monitor

1:08:55

the thyroid . So in healthy people there

1:08:58

was no issue . So you know , if you're healthy , you've

1:09:00

got a relatively healthy thyroid .

1:09:02

Then you know there's no issue yeah

1:09:04

, and look , people with hypothyroidism , who

1:09:07

perhaps Hashimoto is most commonly

1:09:09

and they are on

1:09:11

thyroid replacement therapy . When they do

1:09:13

things like carnivore and low carbohydrate diets and

1:09:15

improve their circadian rhythm , they will

1:09:17

find that they might become jittery , they might

1:09:20

have palpitations or they essentially

1:09:22

become super

1:09:24

their the dose excessively . For

1:09:26

that they're a new amount

1:09:28

of thyroid sensitivity , thyroid hormone

1:09:31

sensitivity . So if that's the case , then

1:09:33

, yeah , basically just needs to be monitored and potentially doses

1:09:35

down to I traded , but I'm definitely recommend

1:09:37

doing that with your , with your doctor , and not

1:09:39

not necessarily by yourself . So

1:09:41

fantastic with any other specific

1:09:44

that . There is one more and the

1:09:46

implication and you made a great Instagram post

1:09:48

about this which is such

1:09:50

a deep rabbit hole and I think is potentially

1:09:54

completely game changing which is its

1:09:56

effect on cardiovascular

1:09:58

health and cardiovascular disease

1:10:00

. Now , gerald Pollock was

1:10:02

, is basically been the guy who

1:10:04

discovered that in infrared light could potentially

1:10:07

blood flow through the cardiovascular

1:10:09

system for its effect on

1:10:11

basically the exclusion zone in blood vessels

1:10:14

. So talk to us about that

1:10:16

and maybe the evidence around photobiomodulation

1:10:18

for cardiac conditions yeah , no

1:10:20

, I mean , it's a huge area there .

1:10:22

I think I did see a big review

1:10:24

article for for cardiovascular

1:10:26

health and one of the more you know

1:10:28

relevant things that I've been seeing lately

1:10:30

is for , you

1:10:32

know , kind of blood clots and some of these you

1:10:35

know , spike protein type issues

1:10:37

that are kind of systemic inflammation

1:10:39

and effects of heart and all these things

1:10:41

, and it's listed on the FLCCC's

1:10:44

website of using photobiomodulation

1:10:46

or even sunlight , as you know , the

1:10:49

cardio protective aspects and clearing

1:10:51

out that you know , the spike protein and managing

1:10:53

that systemic inflammation . So that's

1:10:55

, you know , a huge area right now that

1:10:57

people should be considering . You

1:10:59

know , I get a lot of emails from people that are

1:11:02

suffering with brain fog and other

1:11:04

issues that are affecting their brain , affecting

1:11:06

their heart , affecting your respiration

1:11:08

and all that stuff . So , yeah , with

1:11:11

heart health , again , the

1:11:13

heart is a highly mitochondrial

1:11:15

muscle . You know , I think I do have , yeah , a

1:11:18

post of , like , different organs and

1:11:20

their numbers of mitochondria per

1:11:22

cell . So organs the brain , the

1:11:24

heart , the eyes and liver

1:11:26

all are very high in mitochondria and

1:11:30

they need that , that support . And you know , again

1:11:32

, even if we can't directly penetrate

1:11:34

the skin all the way , even a small percentage

1:11:37

can reach reach the heart or reach certain organs

1:11:39

. You know there's bystander effects

1:11:41

and systemic effects that also help improve

1:11:43

it . So it's , it's going to be , you know

1:11:45

, such a huge area for , yeah , for heart health

1:11:47

and for dealing with some of these , these

1:11:49

current issues with people are facing

1:11:52

.

1:11:52

Yeah that makes so much sense to me because if

1:11:54

we're able to potentiate the

1:11:57

, the exclusion zone in the blood

1:11:59

vessels , and aid in in blood vessel

1:12:01

healing and endothelial health , that

1:12:03

that completely makes sense in terms of the

1:12:05

vercose triad and and blood clotting

1:12:08

and obviously to

1:12:10

, as you said , assist in

1:12:12

the function of any tissue that is is

1:12:14

dense in mitochondria . And it

1:12:16

gets again to this concept of the mitochondrial

1:12:19

, bio , energetic etiology of disease , which is

1:12:21

Doug Wallace's work , which showed that aging

1:12:23

and all these chronic diseases are

1:12:25

simply manifestations , organ

1:12:27

specific manifestations , of mitochondria dysfunction

1:12:29

and with , with year

1:12:32

after year , debt degradation

1:12:34

in mitochondrial efficiency . It's just , it's

1:12:36

going to be a function of luck and genetics

1:12:38

and specific environmental factors as

1:12:41

to which one of these mitochondrally

1:12:43

dense organs fails first . And if it's

1:12:45

your retina , you might get my macular degeneration

1:12:47

, if it's your brain , you're going to get Alzheimer's

1:12:49

disease and , you know , if it's a heart , you might get

1:12:51

some form of heart failure . So , and

1:12:54

yes , supporting these , these organs

1:12:56

with infrared light , again , sun first

1:12:58

and then , but obviously using this

1:13:00

as part of our photoblog , my modulation

1:13:03

is out , part of our toolkit . Is is another

1:13:05

very important factor . And I also

1:13:07

think about using the emergency department

1:13:09

, because I also work in the , in the ED and

1:13:11

you mentioned that . And for

1:13:13

cyanide poisoning your methylene blue is

1:13:15

is something that gets used . But

1:13:17

I'm just imagining if someone

1:13:20

comes in an acute heart failure and yes , we're

1:13:22

doing , and you know , all the things that we

1:13:24

we have to do from a acute management

1:13:26

point of view . But what if we did have

1:13:28

a couple of therapy

1:13:30

light panels that were mounted on because

1:13:32

we already have lights in the , in the ED resource cubicles

1:13:34

to , you know , for procedures , intubation

1:13:37

, whatever . Imagine if we had a couple of photo

1:13:40

, my modulation panels attached to the roof and

1:13:42

as the patient was essentially

1:13:44

being resuscitated and whether

1:13:46

that is , you know , in acute pulmonary demon because of of

1:13:49

heart failure , whatever else , you could basically

1:13:51

put those panels on the patient at the same time

1:13:53

. And I wonder maybe this is a study

1:13:56

for someone emergency physician

1:13:58

in the audience who's listening to do man

1:14:00

could we do a controlled

1:14:03

trial that in some way able to demonstrate

1:14:05

benefit in an acute emergency setting

1:14:07

from from that therapy ? That's

1:14:09

a fascinating idea that I just came

1:14:11

up with .

1:14:13

Yeah , I think , yeah , I mean it should

1:14:15

be almost considered a first line

1:14:17

of first line therapy , first line defense

1:14:19

. It's so . I mean it's relatively

1:14:22

not invasive , it's extremely

1:14:24

safe . There's almost no downsides , there's

1:14:26

only can be upsides , and especially

1:14:29

when we get more sophisticated with getting

1:14:31

the dosing right . Yeah , yeah , no , for

1:14:33

sure . Just want to make sure we lost , okay

1:14:36

, and was

1:14:38

like but getting the

1:14:40

dosing right in the yeah , getting the dosing

1:14:42

right . But that's a break

1:14:44

here .

1:14:45

I'm so stoked . I think this is like

1:14:47

game changing , because I mean

1:14:49

it's just completely game changing

1:14:51

to help people without necessarily

1:14:53

having these risk risk

1:14:55

risk profiles of some of these medications is just

1:14:57

helping the whole system alone .

1:14:59

Yeah yeah , so , yeah . So if

1:15:01

you get the dosing right , you know and we really appreciate

1:15:04

where we're going with red light therapy , we

1:15:07

can really implement it in acute issues

1:15:09

with long term issues and all that stuff and

1:15:12

what I've read in some of the articles

1:15:14

, some of the Russian authors

1:15:16

they're saying this is already a standard

1:15:18

of care . There's already thousands of

1:15:20

laser dosing , laser devices

1:15:23

already in clinics in Russia . It's

1:15:25

just kind of what they do as a standard

1:15:27

of care , even in terms of like

1:15:29

laser acupuncture applications

1:15:31

. That , you know , some people might think is a little

1:15:33

bit out there , but because we know their systemic

1:15:36

effects anyway , then the acupuncture

1:15:38

makes a lot more sense . So

1:15:40

you know it's already a standard care in maybe

1:15:42

some other countries . And the US

1:15:45

needs to really figure this out quickly if

1:15:47

we want to optimize , you know , actually

1:15:49

help people's health out in a very

1:15:51

non invasive way yeah , I mean , the

1:15:53

Russian sounds like they're doing things something

1:15:55

a lot right if they've already incorporated

1:15:57

this .

1:15:58

I mean , it's nothing that we got taught in medical school

1:16:00

. I mean , no mania , and

1:16:02

it just shows the disconnect and the

1:16:05

lag time between the implementation of

1:16:07

cutting edge science and , you

1:16:09

know , clinical application . But you

1:16:12

know , that's the promise of this more decentralized

1:16:14

health movement and no pharmaceutical

1:16:16

companies going to make a bunch of money when we , you

1:16:19

know , if we implement these

1:16:21

type of devices , but the patients can

1:16:23

benefit at the end of the day , that is that's what

1:16:25

matters the most . So , and did

1:16:28

you have any more therapeutic

1:16:30

applications that you wanted

1:16:32

to make mention of ? Cancer

1:16:36

?

1:16:36

No , I think , what about ?

1:16:37

cancer , anything to .

1:16:39

Cancer . Yeah , cancer is pretty tough because

1:16:41

I think it could be used

1:16:43

more just more as it helps support

1:16:46

healthy mitochondrial function . So

1:16:48

we know cancer is not always

1:16:50

a DNA issue , it is a mitochondrial

1:16:52

issue . It can be used therapeutically just

1:16:54

to help support our healthy cells , which

1:16:56

should help prevent

1:16:59

some of the cancer indications . But

1:17:02

, that said , there are cancers

1:17:04

. If you know you have a cancer , you don't directly

1:17:06

treat it unless you really know what you're doing

1:17:08

or if you're working with a doctor . It's

1:17:11

being going to be used as a managing

1:17:14

cancer side effects and some of the cancer

1:17:16

treatments , like oral mucositis , which

1:17:18

is a side effect from the chemotherapy that

1:17:21

affects a lot of pain and a lot

1:17:23

of issues in your tongue and your mouth . So

1:17:26

they're studying a lot of treatments that you can do

1:17:28

on the tongue and through the cheeks and

1:17:30

getting that as kind of a supportive

1:17:32

thing for some of the symptoms . But

1:17:35

you might not want to directly treat a cancer cell

1:17:37

because we don't know how different types of cancer

1:17:40

will respond to light therapies

1:17:42

. But there is going to be a whole new kind

1:17:44

of science called photodynamic

1:17:46

therapy where a lot of times

1:17:48

they'll inject a photosensitizing

1:17:50

chemical into , like a cancer cell and

1:17:53

then you put the light on and that causes apoptosis

1:17:56

or kills the cancer cell . It could

1:17:58

overheat it . So there's a lot

1:18:00

of studies that are going to be down that avenue

1:18:03

. That's kind of a different type of light therapy

1:18:05

, again for targeting , trying to kill

1:18:07

certain types of unwanted cells

1:18:09

.

1:18:09

Yes , and that's exactly what I found when

1:18:11

I had a brief look at the literature , which was the

1:18:13

benefit has been in supporting the

1:18:16

side effects of chemotherapy and radiotherapy

1:18:18

and basically , cancer treatment

1:18:20

associated side effects , and I think that's

1:18:23

very good advice and very nuanced advice because

1:18:25

, as you said , we don't know

1:18:27

what this light could be doing and we don't want to accidentally

1:18:29

potentiate the growth of certain

1:18:31

tumors and if we don't know what exactly

1:18:34

is going to happen and it's exciting

1:18:36

. I mean , interventional radiology is

1:18:38

one field that uses very , very targeted

1:18:41

therapy to deal with certain

1:18:43

tumors and cancers and I can just imagine

1:18:45

maybe they could be responsible

1:18:47

for leading some of this research into

1:18:49

that photodynamic therapy

1:18:52

. That's amazing , andrew . So

1:18:54

much to talk about on that topic . Let's

1:18:57

make mention now of the practicality

1:18:59

. So how do we dose this

1:19:02

therapy ? How do we choose what size

1:19:04

of panel to use ? There's

1:19:06

so much out there now , have

1:19:08

so many brands , so many gizmos

1:19:11

, gadgets , wavelengths make

1:19:13

it really simple for people to understand

1:19:16

what they need to be looking at

1:19:18

and considering .

1:19:20

Yeah , yeah , and a lot of times with , I

1:19:22

think , with like drugs and medicines

1:19:24

and even supplements that kind of get

1:19:26

prescribed to us we don't really

1:19:28

think about the dosing and we aren't really

1:19:30

empowered to dose things ourselves . Usually

1:19:34

we get some pills how many pills do I

1:19:36

take , when do I take it ? And that's all

1:19:38

you need to worry about . With red light therapy , there's

1:19:40

a couple more steps involved , and

1:19:42

the simplest kind of form that

1:19:44

you have to keep in mind when we talk about this is

1:19:46

you get a red light therapy device

1:19:48

, you aim it at

1:19:51

your skin , you can put it on your skin , or sometimes you're

1:19:53

a couple inches away , so you just apply

1:19:55

it at a certain distance and for

1:19:57

a certain amount of exposure time , and

1:19:59

so that's usually what a consumer

1:20:01

that's all they should kind of have to worry about

1:20:03

in an ideal world that if we

1:20:06

knew everything we were doing right , we could

1:20:08

say , okay , you put it on your skin

1:20:10

or do a couple inches away , or whatever

1:20:13

the manufacturer says , and use

1:20:15

it for a certain amount of time a couple minutes

1:20:17

, five minutes , 10 minutes , 20 minutes . So that's

1:20:19

all you should have to think about in terms of dosing

1:20:22

in a practical kind of perspective

1:20:24

. But then we can kind of get into

1:20:26

all the numbers and the power

1:20:29

and the jewels and the energy and all that

1:20:31

. So with red light therapy

1:20:33

every different device is going to deliver

1:20:36

a certain amount of power or intensity

1:20:38

. So that's kind of how much radiation

1:20:41

, how much radiant power

1:20:43

. So power is your energy per second

1:20:45

. So that's the rate at which energy

1:20:47

is delivered . So you need and that's usually

1:20:49

in watts , or more often people

1:20:51

talk about watts per centimeter squared , where you

1:20:54

kind of divide by the surface area that

1:20:56

you're treating . So most of

1:20:58

the time you see devices like panels

1:21:00

. We'll talk about middle watts per centimeter squared

1:21:02

from the device . Then your

1:21:05

exposure time you know how many seconds . You can

1:21:07

multiply that by your exposure time

1:21:09

and seconds and then you can calculate

1:21:12

your energy density , which is your

1:21:15

jewels per centimeter squared . Or , like

1:21:17

I said , some studies just use the total jewels

1:21:19

of the total energy that you get . But

1:21:22

you know you want that jewels per centimeter squared

1:21:24

to be within that therapeutic range

1:21:26

. You don't want too much for the biphasic

1:21:28

dose response , you don't want too little . And I think

1:21:30

most people get the too little part and they are

1:21:32

kind of afraid that , oh , what if I don't do enough

1:21:34

, but you can . You know it's very

1:21:36

effective even at relatively low doses

1:21:39

. So you know , you can start with

1:21:41

a couple jewels per centimeter squared . Four

1:21:43

to six is a pretty good range for , I find

1:21:45

, for LED panels . And

1:21:47

then , you know , don't be afraid of

1:21:49

kind of tailoring it up or down . So I do have

1:21:51

a dosing calculator on my blog . You just

1:21:54

type in your intensity and

1:21:56

what what you know jewels you want , and

1:21:58

it'll tell you how much exposure time . So that's a

1:22:00

very quick way . But the math is very

1:22:02

simple , you know , and I show you

1:22:04

the map is just simple multiplication

1:22:06

, and maybe you have to convert the units . You

1:22:09

know , if you're talking about minutes , you multiply

1:22:11

by 60 seconds . Or

1:22:13

if you're talking about , you have to convert milliwatts

1:22:15

to watts . So you have to , you know

1:22:17

, multiply or divide by 1000 sometimes

1:22:19

. But so it's pretty straightforward

1:22:22

. So you get the right amount of exposure time , you

1:22:24

get the right amount of intensity . So sometimes

1:22:26

the dosing theory tells you oh

1:22:29

, you know , if you do high intensity you can

1:22:31

do a shorter amount of time , get the same amount

1:22:33

of energy density , and that

1:22:35

works kind of to a point . But the studies

1:22:37

are very clear that sometimes too high of an

1:22:39

intensity doesn't get you the right

1:22:41

response . It doesn't get you the healing

1:22:44

response , especially high intensities

1:22:46

that cause a lot of heating and then you

1:22:48

start creating , you know , heat therapy mechanisms

1:22:50

or you could create more ROS from the heat

1:22:52

. So typically you want again

1:22:54

that low intensity is kind

1:22:56

of the name of the game to get it

1:22:58

right . But you know , think about

1:23:01

. I'm more practical about thinking about

1:23:03

how do you want to use red

1:23:05

light therapy and don't just think about what

1:23:07

all the conditions you're trying to cure , because

1:23:10

you know a lot of companies can't make that

1:23:12

claim anyway . But don't think

1:23:14

about like , oh , what's the best device like

1:23:16

, without really thinking about how

1:23:18

you're going to use the device , when are you going to use

1:23:21

it ? When are you going to fit it in with your lifestyle

1:23:23

and make it practical , that something

1:23:25

you can use consistently ? So there

1:23:27

was one quote when I was shopping for cameras , of

1:23:29

like , the best camera you have

1:23:31

is the one you have on you . So

1:23:33

if you've got a phone camera and you don't need

1:23:35

, you don't have your big DSLR , your phone

1:23:37

camera is the best camera that you have and you want

1:23:39

to take a picture of something nice . Same thing

1:23:41

with red light therapy . The best red light therapy is

1:23:43

the one that you can use consistently . So

1:23:46

I don't care , you know , oh , we have the biggest power

1:23:48

, we have the most wavelengths we have , we're

1:23:51

big or we're smaller or whatever . It's

1:23:54

something that you need to use consistently . So

1:23:56

that's the key point and I usually

1:23:58

end up talking people down from like , okay

1:24:00

, yeah , you can do a full body panel , a big panel

1:24:03

you have to think about , are you going to hang it on

1:24:05

a wall or are you going to hang it on a door ? Are

1:24:07

you going to get a stand and then are you going to

1:24:09

stand or sit in front of it ? You

1:24:12

know , I know some companies kind of have a

1:24:14

horizontal stand so you can lay under it . But

1:24:17

that gets pretty obtuse in terms of how much

1:24:19

space you have to dedicate to it and the

1:24:21

maintenance . And I have some lightweight

1:24:23

panels you can just lay down and just lay the panel

1:24:25

right on you or you can get a flexible

1:24:27

pad . So I think those are much more practical

1:24:30

than getting a big panel that

1:24:32

you need a horizontal stand for . But

1:24:35

yeah , but overall that's really great you get , you

1:24:37

know , with full body light therapy . I have to remind

1:24:39

people it's more of a systemic treatment . It's

1:24:42

more of that whole body treatment , especially

1:24:44

when it's non-contact , that you're

1:24:46

a couple inches away , that you

1:24:48

get a lot of skin reflection losses . You don't

1:24:50

get the deep penetration when you get

1:24:53

skin contact , like a lot of studies will press

1:24:55

the lasers or the LED diodes into

1:24:57

the skin . That compresses the skin a little

1:24:59

bit and you get much better penetration . So

1:25:02

with full body panels you get that systemic response

1:25:04

. It's more of you know that sunlight

1:25:07

supplement of being non-contact and getting

1:25:09

the right kind of stimulation for your whole body

1:25:11

. And then you know if you

1:25:13

need that deeper treatment or targeted

1:25:15

treatments . That's where smaller devices

1:25:17

are more convenient for the targeted

1:25:19

deeper penetration and to place right on

1:25:21

the skin . And

1:25:24

you know , I just think smaller devices that are

1:25:26

more convenient . And if you can use skin contact

1:25:28

you don't have to measure out distances and you

1:25:30

know , do all that . And I see all the selfies

1:25:32

of people like trying to hold a device like certain

1:25:35

inches away and like who's going to hold

1:25:37

a device for like 10 minutes , like that . So

1:25:39

you know it kind of gets . You just slap

1:25:41

it on , you , just lay it on you , you

1:25:44

know . So it should be very simple

1:25:46

. So the dosing issue you get a

1:25:49

couple of the right wavelengths . You don't have to overthink

1:25:51

them . If you get a couple of reds

1:25:53

, you know I usually use 630

1:25:56

, 660 , couple nearing four reds

1:25:58

like 810 , 830

1:26:00

, 850 , you know

1:26:02

. So most of my panels are anywhere from

1:26:04

, you know , three wavelengths to five

1:26:06

wavelengths , but again , you

1:26:09

only need one or two wavelengths to get a good

1:26:11

benefit . So you know , most of the studies

1:26:13

show they only use one or two wavelengths

1:26:15

and then you just need the

1:26:17

right amount of intensity and sometimes

1:26:19

the intensities . In some studies with LED

1:26:22

panels that cover a large area

1:26:24

, they're using 2.9 milliwatts

1:26:26

per centimeter squared , which a lot of people would be

1:26:29

freaking out that it's way too low . But

1:26:31

it works . Because it's a large panel it's got a systemic

1:26:34

effect . The study you know we just

1:26:36

talked about for glucose that was 40

1:26:38

milliwatts per centimeter squared . So

1:26:41

for me that's a little bit on the higher end , because

1:26:43

once you start getting past 50 or 55

1:26:45

milliwatts per centimeter squared , especially in

1:26:47

a large panel , you get a lot of heating and

1:26:50

so the photons get converted into heat and they

1:26:52

don't get utilized for some of the photochemical

1:26:54

effects that we want on the mitochondria or

1:26:56

for forming easy water or

1:26:58

, you know , getting the ion channel

1:27:01

modulation . So

1:27:03

you know , a little bit of heat is okay from

1:27:05

red light panels , but it's not supposed to be a heat therapy

1:27:08

. So I think for me that's a kind

1:27:10

of a pivotal part of the dosing

1:27:12

that now I feel like I have to remind people

1:27:14

of , because the industry has gone

1:27:17

so off track with such high intensity

1:27:19

products that some

1:27:22

people are just basically using red light therapy

1:27:24

as a heat therapy , which you know I'm

1:27:26

all about heat therapies too , especially , you know

1:27:28

, radiant heat therapies . It feels very nice but

1:27:32

you know the science is very separate . That

1:27:34

photo biomodulation and low level light

1:27:36

therapy , very specifically designed as

1:27:38

cold light therapies , as

1:27:40

non-thermal light therapies . They

1:27:42

do a lot of things to limit the heating

1:27:45

, like sometimes they pre-cool the skin because

1:27:47

it actually increases the skin transparency

1:27:50

. When you put ice or

1:27:52

some sort of cryo cooling that

1:27:54

, if you know , if you do your cold plunges

1:27:56

or you do whatever you're out in the cold for a while

1:27:58

, what do you notice ? That your skin , your

1:28:01

blood has drained away from your skin . Your

1:28:03

skin appears more pale and more transparent

1:28:05

and that's better for penetration

1:28:07

of the light . So actually combining cool with

1:28:10

light therapy is better than combining heat

1:28:13

and light therapy most of the time If

1:28:15

you really want that penetration and get

1:28:18

that true kind of photo biomodulation stimulation

1:28:20

into the deeper cells . So

1:28:22

you get less penetration when you get heat because

1:28:24

it encourages more blood flow for

1:28:26

thermal regulation and a

1:28:28

lot of people like oh , I'm feeling heat

1:28:31

. So I'm getting deep penetration , but no , we don't

1:28:33

actually have heat sensors that

1:28:35

are much deeper than the skin . So

1:28:37

if you're getting heat , you're literally feeling it superficially

1:28:40

and , like I said , it's

1:28:42

a sign that you're going to start to get less penetration

1:28:44

, because most of photons are getting superficially

1:28:46

converted into heat and it causes

1:28:49

the mechanisms of blood flow . So

1:28:52

you know , all these details unfortunately have

1:28:54

kind of we've kind of lost the plot line of

1:28:56

what red light therapy is and isn't of

1:28:59

, you know , just using low intensities , getting

1:29:01

the right amount of exposure time , and you can't

1:29:03

really take a shortcut of , oh , I'm going to use

1:29:06

high intensity for a couple seconds and get

1:29:08

a dose , and sometimes that

1:29:10

could work . Sometimes you know it wouldn't

1:29:12

work . So , but yeah , most of the

1:29:14

studies are using low intensity . For

1:29:16

that reason there's a biphasic aspect to

1:29:19

intensity and not just to

1:29:21

the dose . So that's , I'm

1:29:24

going to try to make an argument or

1:29:26

a YouTube video about some of the studies

1:29:28

that really show that that there's a biphasic

1:29:30

aspect to intensity , and

1:29:32

that seems to be a hard idea

1:29:34

to grasp . But I was trying

1:29:36

to think of , like , if you use five gallons

1:29:39

of water in an hour , you're not

1:29:41

going to feel very good . You're going to mess up your

1:29:43

electrolytes . You might cause some

1:29:45

problems or some damage . If you drink five

1:29:47

gallons of water over the course of a couple

1:29:49

of days , then that's fine

1:29:52

, right . If you space out your

1:29:54

water intake , you're supposed to , so it's the

1:29:56

rate at which you drink water that's hazardous

1:29:58

, it's not just how much water you

1:30:00

can drink . So the rate

1:30:02

of intensity is very different and

1:30:06

, like we said , they've already made

1:30:08

very clear the intensity of

1:30:11

high intensity . Lasers cause heating and

1:30:13

they cause damage and that's why they use cold

1:30:15

lasers . But yeah , so

1:30:17

that's kind of the whole bit . But most

1:30:19

of the time you should be able to trust your manufacturer

1:30:21

, give you some reasonable range of

1:30:24

distance and exposure time and

1:30:26

how often . So that's important

1:30:28

too . Sometimes you want to space out your doses

1:30:30

. You can do it every other day or couple

1:30:32

times cumulative response that builds up

1:30:35

in your cells . So you don't want to do

1:30:37

it too frequently either . If you do it twice

1:30:39

a day or three times a day , depending on

1:30:41

your condition , that might be too much , unless

1:30:44

someone really has a pain condition . They're just trying

1:30:46

to manage with red light therapy . But

1:30:48

most of the time you want to do it daily

1:30:50

if you're doing low doses , like a home use device

1:30:52

, or you can space it out , you know , couple

1:30:54

times a week . So that's a big part

1:30:57

of proper dosing is thinking about the longer

1:30:59

term , of how often are you doing

1:31:01

as well . But other

1:31:03

than that , yeah , most of the time you should be able

1:31:05

to , you know , get a product , how many

1:31:07

inches away , how long , how

1:31:10

often , and that's it

1:31:12

. And then you know some of the tips we talked about

1:31:14

where to target your areas of pain

1:31:16

, inflammation , the organs you want to support

1:31:18

, whatever that is , and then maybe

1:31:20

target some systemic areas like your tibia

1:31:22

, your gut , your sternum , your

1:31:25

forehead , and that should cover

1:31:27

it . Or you just get a full body device . I think

1:31:29

that's the benefit of full

1:31:31

body devices you don't really need to decide

1:31:33

where to apply it , you just do

1:31:36

your whole body and you hold for the best .

1:31:39

So when you said you can't drink five

1:31:41

gallons of water over an hour , it reminded

1:31:43

me of another saying is you can't make

1:31:45

a baby by getting nine women pregnant

1:31:47

and waiting one month .

1:31:53

So the rate is very , very . The

1:31:55

rate is kind of fixed and yeah , that's

1:31:57

what they talk about as a dose

1:31:59

rate response in some of the literature

1:32:01

. I'll find that quote for one

1:32:03

of my new videos . But you

1:32:07

know , sunlight , again , that range is about

1:32:09

30 to , I think , 50 milliwatts

1:32:12

per centimeter squared in that range

1:32:14

, which is a very therapeutic . So you

1:32:16

know , a lot of companies will say , oh , our

1:32:18

panels or our devices are a thousand

1:32:21

times more powerful than sunlight . You

1:32:23

have to use us . You can't use sunlight and

1:32:25

that would be ridiculous because you would

1:32:27

just burn yourself if it was so much higher

1:32:29

intensity . So your skin was attuned

1:32:32

to the certain amount of heat

1:32:34

and the energy levels

1:32:36

and the intensity of sunlight . So if

1:32:38

we try to do multiple times more

1:32:41

than what sunlight would naturally give us , then

1:32:43

that's problematic . That's what leads to photoaging

1:32:46

caused by rent and urine for sunlight because of too much

1:32:48

heat and too much . You know , our skin

1:32:50

just wasn't meant to manage that much intensity

1:32:52

. So there's a biological

1:32:55

component that several studies have mentioned that

1:32:57

, hey , sometimes the best intensity

1:32:59

seems to match what sunlight would

1:33:01

give us anyway . So and we don't need to

1:33:03

fool ourselves that we're outsmarting

1:33:06

nature and doing high intensities

1:33:08

, for , you know , a speculative

1:33:10

kind of reason .

1:33:12

I want to make a point about the temperature

1:33:14

usage and you had a really great video about

1:33:17

this which I shared with my community group and

1:33:19

everyone really really enjoyed it which is this idea

1:33:21

that you really actually want to be separating the

1:33:24

therapeutic photobiomodulation and

1:33:27

any kind of tech which is going to be the nearer infrared

1:33:29

wavelengths , from the temperature

1:33:31

and the sauna benefit of far infrared

1:33:34

, which is a heating benefit . So

1:33:36

what that looks like is , if you're using

1:33:38

these devices , then use them at room

1:33:40

temperature , or maybe even after you've got out of your

1:33:43

cold plunge , where these wavelengths

1:33:45

of light can penetrate into your body

1:33:47

more effectively , and then do

1:33:49

the sauna therapy in the afternoon

1:33:51

, when you're in a Swedish sauna with the hot

1:33:54

rocks , you know it's dark inside

1:33:56

, but you're getting all those far infrared

1:33:58

and heat benefits . So you're

1:34:00

not trying to combine the two of them , which is , you

1:34:02

know , lighting up your sauna with

1:34:05

these therapeutic near infrared

1:34:07

photons at the same time as heating , because , as

1:34:09

you mentioned , that's kind of counterproductive . It

1:34:11

also gets to a point and you made this

1:34:14

point in another video which is the historical

1:34:16

use of heliotherapy was at

1:34:18

altitude and at cold temperature

1:34:20

, and anyone who's

1:34:22

listened to my Jack Cruise series he ends

1:34:25

one of the podcasts by saying the trick

1:34:27

is to be getting sunlight and getting

1:34:29

cold , and that gets to the

1:34:31

heart of what I mentioned , which

1:34:34

is the environment that the mitochondria

1:34:36

are in . So if you can use

1:34:38

light and temperature at

1:34:40

the same time , that to me

1:34:42

is the rocket fuel for healing

1:34:45

or your mitochondria .

1:34:46

Yeah , yeah , some of the original heliotherapy

1:34:49

clinics were built in Lasin

1:34:51

, switzerland , in the Alps , in

1:34:54

around Buffalo , new York , in

1:34:56

the Rocky Mountains , all in very cool

1:34:59

climates . And one of the original sun

1:35:01

doctors said that they purposely wanted

1:35:03

to do sunlight therapy in a cooler

1:35:05

climate to kind of offset that

1:35:07

heat from the sun and to keep you cool

1:35:09

and it seemed much more therapeutic to get

1:35:12

sunlight therapy while it was cool . So

1:35:14

yeah , I get a lot of rhetorical arguments

1:35:16

of like , oh well , the sun feels really hot

1:35:18

and so it's okay to combine heat

1:35:20

and light therapy . And again , there might be

1:35:22

some merits to that . But generally the therapeutic

1:35:25

use in all the studies and even heliotherapy

1:35:27

preferred to be in a cooler climate . And

1:35:30

even if you're getting , even if you're

1:35:32

not in a cool climate , you're getting red light

1:35:34

therapy in the early morning , in the evenings

1:35:36

when the temperature is naturally

1:35:38

cooler than midday sun . So

1:35:41

even that's much more therapeutic that you're getting

1:35:43

in the early morning while it's still cool , or

1:35:45

in the evening when it's relatively

1:35:47

cooler anyway . So there seems

1:35:49

to be a lot of merits to keeping cool

1:35:52

with the red and near infrared light therapy

1:35:54

, of optimizing the healing . So

1:35:56

but yeah , I did a whole blog

1:35:58

about how to do heat therapy properly , because

1:36:01

I think you know there's a lack of precision

1:36:03

about talking about heat therapies

1:36:05

and saying , oh well , it feels good , as long

1:36:07

as you don't burn yourself , then that's okay , which

1:36:10

just sounds ridiculous . So some

1:36:12

of the heat therapies you know you want to monitor your

1:36:14

skin temperature , be within 38

1:36:17

to like 41 degrees Celsius

1:36:19

and monitor that skin

1:36:21

temperature and do it for 20 minutes or even

1:36:24

up to about an hour to get that

1:36:26

heat therapy which is kind of what you know a

1:36:28

lot of the farm for it's son is . You don't

1:36:30

feel like you're burning your skin when

1:36:32

you're in a farm , for it's on a . Usually you're

1:36:34

. You know the . The radiation from

1:36:36

the son is our , you

1:36:39

know , not as intense to feel like it's

1:36:41

burning . It's just warming you up gradually

1:36:43

. So that's a key component of

1:36:45

any heat therapy . Still , don't want to burn yourself

1:36:47

.

1:36:48

You just want to get that nice subtle

1:36:50

warmth , and I'll just make the point that anyone who

1:36:52

is getting sunlight at altitude needs to be careful

1:36:54

about UV yield , because the UV

1:36:56

yield is higher at altitude , and

1:36:58

so anyone who's climb mountains will

1:37:01

be able to tell you that they'll burn much , much easier

1:37:03

. And obviously that's also a function of

1:37:05

reflection of the ice

1:37:07

in the snow , but just

1:37:09

to keep that , keep that in mind . So we've

1:37:11

, we've . This is an amazingly in depth

1:37:13

episode and we really enjoyed speaking

1:37:16

with you . I we actually haven't been able to cover

1:37:18

everything I wanted to talk about , so I'll just have

1:37:20

to get you on at another time , but

1:37:22

any parting thoughts about

1:37:24

anything we've talked about and maybe talk

1:37:27

about or briefly just explain

1:37:29

where people can find you and maybe try out one

1:37:31

of your products .

1:37:32

Sure , yeah , you know , for for Gamber

1:37:34

Red and what we started as is being very

1:37:36

transparent and being accurate with our

1:37:38

intensity measurements . So a lot of other companies

1:37:40

are still false advertising their

1:37:42

intensity with . They

1:37:44

use these solar power meters which , as

1:37:47

the name implies , they they weren't made

1:37:49

to measure red and ear and forehead wavelengths

1:37:51

. They can estimate sunlight pretty well

1:37:53

because that's what they're calibrated to do . But

1:37:55

they've got a photodiode that's got

1:37:57

a sensitivity curve that falsely

1:38:00

reads higher when you only read

1:38:02

. You know , isolated ran in the ear and forehead

1:38:04

wavelength . So it's like the perfect crime that you

1:38:06

can show people this measurement tool and be like , oh

1:38:08

, look at this big number on on a

1:38:11

solar power meter and we're doing a

1:38:13

hundred or 150 milliwatts per centimeter

1:38:15

squared or these , these high numbers

1:38:17

that you know if you understood the

1:38:19

science . Anyway , those aren't even

1:38:21

desirable numbers to have in

1:38:23

the first place . So there's kind of two lies that I

1:38:26

try to have to combat . These numbers are just false

1:38:28

and to the narrative that

1:38:30

was built up around these numbers

1:38:32

is completely nonsense of . Like

1:38:34

you would be overheating the skin , like I just talked

1:38:36

about , you would be just doing a heat therapy with

1:38:38

an LED panel , which I

1:38:40

think will be a new type of therapy in the future

1:38:43

. But right now , if you want red

1:38:45

light therapy and and photo myomodulation

1:38:47

, you want to stick to some of the lower intensities really

1:38:50

less than about 50 milliwatts per centimeter

1:38:52

squared , so you get in that true

1:38:54

cold red light therapy range and still

1:38:56

get a good dose . And

1:38:58

, like I said , I've got products that are even lower intensity

1:39:01

than that and they've been working great . So

1:39:04

, yeah , it's not all about . You know the marketing

1:39:06

and the hype and and the intensity and you

1:39:08

know anyone that that kind of gives me an opportunity

1:39:10

to try to call that

1:39:12

out . You know , and and unfortunately

1:39:14

it's a battle that a lot of influencers

1:39:17

, they they kind of ignore , they , they don't

1:39:19

want to talk about , they think it's too negative

1:39:21

. You know people email me all the time . Why are you

1:39:23

so negative ? I'm like isn't it negative to false

1:39:25

advertise a medical device ? But

1:39:28

you know , so I think it's important

1:39:30

, you know , and we have to build a strong foundation

1:39:33

of science and integrity for red light therapy

1:39:35

. Otherwise this will just get demonized

1:39:37

as another fad and we'll end up , you

1:39:40

know , being talked about in the future like Kellogg

1:39:42

and Pliskin and some of these

1:39:44

other light therapy gurus in the 1930s

1:39:47

that were all demonized and you know

1:39:49

they did cross the line on some of the medical

1:39:51

claims they made . So

1:39:54

we don't want , you know , red light therapy just to be

1:39:56

another fad that's been taken advantage of

1:39:58

and make a lot of false claims . We want

1:40:00

to be very strong in the science and integrity

1:40:02

. So , yeah , that's my bit

1:40:04

about that . But you know , we've

1:40:07

got the website , gambaretcom , I've