0:01

Hey everybody . It's Alex once again

0:03

from the remote work life

0:06

podcast , and I

0:08

have one of my podcasting heroes with me

0:10

today , pilar Ooty . Pilar

0:12

is a director of

0:14

virtual , not distant

0:17

. They help managers and

0:19

teams adapt to a new way

0:21

of working , and I've

0:25

had Pilar as a guest on the podcast

0:28

before . As I said , she's

0:30

a hero of mine in terms of podcasting

0:32

space , one of the first podcasts I ever

0:34

started to listen to , so I

0:36

will put the details in the show notes for you to listen to as

0:38

well . But apart from that , pilar

0:40

is embedded in the world

0:42

of remote work . She's a remote work expert , go

0:45

to thought leader in the

0:47

area of remote work , especially when it comes to

0:49

helping teams , helping

0:51

managers . So , pilar , I

0:53

want to thank you once again for coming

0:56

back to the remote work life podcast .

0:58

Thank you for being here well , I'm delighted

1:00

to be here , always good to speak to you

1:02

and the second time is so well

1:04

. I'm really looking forward to see what we talk about today

1:06

me too .

1:07

Me too , and I think last time we spoke

1:09

, we were talking more about teams

1:12

. You're giving advice in terms of how

1:15

teams , especially the teams

1:17

that were new to remote work , could transition

1:20

and adapt to the world of remote work , and

1:23

that's what you want about . But I

1:25

wanted to , today , find out more about you

1:28

and what inspired you to be

1:30

where you are today , and I

1:32

just wondered you know , first

1:34

and foremost , pilar , could you just tell the

1:36

audience about yourself ? And

1:38

you know where are you in the world now

1:40

as well ?

1:42

well , physically I'm in London , so that's good

1:44

because that's that's my base and

1:47

I think that's important because

1:49

I'm someone that has transitioned

1:52

, so the transition sounds very

1:54

linear . That has that still moves

1:56

, in a lot of professional roles

1:59

and in still in different industries

2:01

, and I am now

2:03

in flux . I am really wondering

2:05

. I've taken this year to think about

2:08

what's next . So I'm still doing a

2:10

lot of what I would been doing for the last five or six

2:12

years , and 20

2:14

years actually , but now I'm starting

2:16

to wonder where am I next ? So

2:18

what I've been doing my

2:21

professional life I

2:23

trained as an actress , run a theater company that

2:26

is like previous life and worked as a voiceover

2:28

artist , which has still do some voiceover

2:30

work . But what I've been

2:33

doing over the last , say , 10

2:35

years is looking at corporate training

2:37

and training in organizations . I

2:39

started in leadership training around

2:42

the 2010s or something and

2:45

I started to see that more

2:47

and more organizations were using technology

2:49

to run their teams . So basically

2:52

, I could see more virtual teams etc

2:54

. So I started to look into that space and I thought

2:56

it was a very interesting space because it

2:58

needed a lot of deliberate action . It

3:01

needed teams and managers

3:03

to really think about how they wanted to

3:05

work together and I thought that is

3:07

very attractive and a lot of people making a

3:09

transition to using more remote work . I

3:11

thought that's great . We can use it as

3:13

a tool to stop and think and design

3:15

new ways of working . And then the pandemic

3:18

came and lots of people had to adopt remote

3:20

work without thinking , without designing new ways

3:22

of working , and those years

3:24

were interesting , I'm sure , for you as well

3:26

, for a lot of people in the remote space to

3:28

just see stuff being adopted

3:30

in whatever way

3:33

was possible . It

3:35

changed how I approach the work . It

3:37

really I was like whoa , what

3:40

am I doing here ? You know , turning to people in the middle

3:42

of a pandemic about visible

3:44

teamwork , which is my thing , and

3:47

so it was an interesting

3:50

time and I

3:52

podcast a lot , which because

3:54

I love talking and because I love having conversations

3:56

about the work . So the

3:59

show that you listen

4:01

to , a 21st century work

4:03

life , is my longest running show and

4:05

it really started because I wanted to have conversations

4:08

with people who were doing things . It

4:11

was more broadly , in the 21st

4:13

century , what work looked like

4:15

, and as I saw that there was

4:17

more remote work being adopted , I thought , well

4:19

, actually , yeah , I could fill a whole podcast with

4:21

just this . So it's been really great

4:23

and from that I also have a podcast

4:25

now about podcasting . I have a podcast about

4:28

food with a friend of mine in Spanish

4:30

. I have a management

4:32

cafe still running now with a co-host

4:34

, so podcasting

4:37

there's something and that's quite

4:39

interesting as well .

4:40

So yeah , very mixed

4:43

background , but all over the place but

4:46

I mean I can see all of the different . You

4:49

know you mentioned linear , but it's . There's

4:51

very much a relationship

4:54

between what you've done in the past

4:56

in terms of the theatre based

4:58

work and the creative

5:00

things that you're doing or we're

5:02

doing AOL , time Warner

5:04

, forbidden theatre company to

5:06

the things that you're doing now . There's

5:09

definitely a correlation , and I

5:12

think so you're

5:14

doing voiceover work as well and obviously voiceover

5:16

is very much related to the audio

5:19

landscape that you're in now and you've

5:21

got three did you say three podcasts

5:23

all in one go .

5:25

I am involved with

5:27

five plus one , I think , plus

5:29

one that I do a co-host for someone

5:31

else .

5:32

Yes , I think and

5:34

you've got the adventures in podcasting as well . You achieve

5:36

podcaster there as well . Yeah

5:38

, you're helping coaches , facilitators and

5:41

trainers . Gosh , I

5:43

just about manage one podcast , do you

5:45

?

5:46

well , that is an issue . Actually

5:48

it is . I mean adventures in podcasting

5:51

. I wanted to turn that into some kind

5:53

of business , doing exactly what you said , using

5:55

helping , specifically , coaches and facilitators

5:58

, because those were there still are my peers

6:00

I haven't . I

6:02

played with it for a bit and then I stopped and

6:04

it's now lingering there . I'm thinking what

6:07

can I do in the world of podcasting

6:09

that is useful and that people

6:11

will pay me for ? So

6:14

that's what I love podcasting .

6:17

I do as well , I think , I know , for the same

6:19

reasons as you . I mean , for me , I

6:21

it was for me was about trying

6:23

to engage people in the conversation , but

6:26

also trying to give them value

6:28

as well , at the same time as talking

6:30

to them and reaching out to people . I

6:33

was working remotely , but I I

6:35

was funny quite difficult myself to network

6:40

, so I thought how can I do

6:42

that , you know , with people across

6:44

the world and it was accidental

6:47

, to be honest with you , I think , but it kind of

6:49

it works , doesn't it ? It's kind

6:51

of it's a nice way to just have conversations

6:53

and find out about people , isn't it ?

6:55

It is . I think it's especially . I

6:57

mean , I don't know about you , but I don't like chit

6:59

chat , so I like to get

7:02

into the meat of the conversation . I mean the kind of conversation

7:04

we're having now . I love having it

7:06

. So the podcast

7:08

gives you that excuse to go straight

7:11

into it and it's

7:13

really useful . And also you can reach out to

7:15

people who you already maybe have something

7:17

to say to , because you've read an article

7:19

of them or , like you , listen to the podcast

7:22

or you know they work in a specific

7:24

field . So you reach out to them and then

7:26

the conversation is a conversation that you want to

7:28

have . I think that's something that a lot

7:30

of people pitching for being

7:32

on a show or PR

7:34

agencies pitching guests . They don't understand

7:36

that indie podcasters

7:39

are there because we want to have certain kind of conversations

7:41

with certain kind of people . So I

7:43

think that's the main thing .

7:46

And there's so much going on now with podcasting there's

7:48

there's you mentioned we were

7:50

talking about tools before there's so much

7:52

going on . There's so many . I don't know about

7:54

you , but I get a lot of people pitching me to come

7:57

on on on the show . But

8:00

, like you , I want to have conversations with a

8:02

specific type of people

8:04

and I think it's yeah , I think you

8:07

mentioned you wanted when

8:09

you talk about podcasting , you said you wanted to explore

8:12

doing things more with your podcasting

8:14

. Is that , is that your , one of your eventual goals

8:16

? Is it ?

8:17

Yeah , that's one of the things that I want to

8:19

do more of , but I'm really trying

8:21

to see where I fit in . So

8:23

again I thought , well , maybe I help

8:25

coaches and facilitators set up

8:27

their own show , but

8:30

maybe that's too vague , maybe it's

8:32

something about . There's

8:34

something for me about how you show

8:36

, how , in a way , how you show

8:38

up at your best in a show , whether it's

8:41

with a guest or on your own . So there's

8:43

something about how much you edit what you

8:45

say , if you are looking

8:47

after the edit , or if you're working with an editor , how

8:49

much of a conversation should be or shouldn't be

8:51

edited . There's

8:53

something that's really interesting there . So , the technical aspect

8:56

of sound . There is something about the persona

8:58

that we adopt . It is

9:00

really interesting . If you listen to just as I love

9:03

me as an example , because I know myself quite well if

9:05

you listen to me in all the different podcasts , you hear

9:08

a different side of me . Sometimes it's very

9:10

subtle , but it's definitely

9:12

. You bring a persona to the

9:14

podcast . I was gonna say , to the show , because it is . You

9:16

need a performance energy . So

9:18

there's something about how the podcast shows up

9:20

. That is also interesting to me . But I still , and

9:23

also haven't found how to

9:25

help , whether it's with online courses

9:27

or one-to-one help . I'm still yeah , and

9:29

it might be that I end up thinking you know , I

9:31

just wanna have , I just wanna do a podcast

9:34

, I don't wanna help other people , and

9:36

then that's another way which a business

9:38

can go is how do you make money from your podcast

9:40

? So which I don't think

9:43

we can make a lot of it , but there might be a way

9:45

of the content

9:47

being what generates the income , rather

9:49

than it being a vehicle for us to

9:51

then attract people to other

9:54

parts of our business .

9:56

Yeah , it's so many tools

9:59

as well . There's a deluge of different

10:01

tools and services

10:04

, and for me I don't know if this helps you , but for

10:06

me , the

10:09

consistency is . The thing that I think a lot

10:11

of podcasters suffer with is the consistency

10:13

, because there's so many things that are related

10:15

to doing a podcast , like getting

10:17

the guests , booking

10:20

guests on , and then , once

10:22

you've made the recording , editing it , scheduling

10:25

the recording , post-production

10:28

from you know , promoting it

10:30

and then transcribing it . There's

10:32

so many different . Yes , I can see why

10:34

you're trying to figure out where

10:36

you fit , because there's so many aspects to it , but

10:39

in terms of the theater side of

10:42

things , just going back now to your early

10:44

career , I'm keen to

10:47

delve a bit more into that

10:49

and because , as I said , I was

10:51

looking at your career whilst

10:54

you were , you mentioned well

10:56

, I mentioned an artistic director

10:59

and workshop leader . How did that

11:01

? How did you sort of ? How

11:03

did your career progress up until that point ? And

11:06

then , after that , more

11:08

to a more entrepreneurial side of you . How did that all

11:10

sort of come about ?

11:12

Well , I am totally self-made

11:14

because I have

11:17

an issue which some

11:19

people could look at as a strength , but I think

11:21

sometimes it gets in my own way , which is I

11:23

am extremely curious and I

11:25

also like to learn by doing

11:27

so . I really I'm

11:30

very lucky that I have a lot of

11:32

confidence in myself , and so I

11:35

don't mind making mistakes , I

11:38

don't mind how I look to others sometimes , so

11:40

I learned by doing so

11:43

. I actually came to London to do a biology degree and

11:45

then ended up training as an actress . I'd

11:48

always loved acting , but it's one thing to love to act and

11:51

the other is to want to become an actor . So I decided

11:53

okay , let's see what being an actor looks like . Oh

11:55

, actually , let's learn to act first . So

11:59

I trained and then , during the

12:01

time at drama school , I became

12:03

friends with someone else , another

12:05

actor , who really was very entrepreneurial as well

12:07

. So we set up a theater company . So

12:10

that's how it happened . Of course , meanwhile

12:12

I was looking for work . I don't think did I get any other work

12:14

? I'm

12:16

not sure , but I didn't wait . And

12:19

also there's a whole thing of I

12:21

still have an accent when I speak in English

12:23

, as you see , and I had maybe a little bit less

12:25

of an accent , but that limits you as an actor what

12:29

kind of roles people might think you're

12:31

suitable for . It just takes longer . I think it's

12:33

possible to have a good career , but that I

12:35

thought that might be limiting . So

12:37

I just wanted to do the roles that I wanted to do . It's

12:40

the same story as now . I wanted to do the work I wanted

12:42

to do with the people I wanted to

12:44

work with in the way that

12:47

I wanted to do it and

12:49

we just learned and some was really

12:51

fun and we did some good work . We

12:54

also did some terrible work at

12:56

some points and during

12:58

that I learned I'd always

13:00

kind of directed , but

13:02

I'd learned to direct a bit more . I'd always been

13:04

doing my own stuff when I

13:06

was little as well . I learned to

13:08

teach through watching my tutors at drama school

13:11

, through watching directors direct

13:13

, and

13:15

I really started to look at what

13:17

it was like to lead a workshop . So

13:20

I learned to be a theater workshop leader as well Again

13:23

, and that was just by trying to assisting , trying stuff

13:25

out , and then I started to train other trainers

13:27

as well . I also got all the other actors going . You

13:30

want to run , learn how to run a workshop and some people became

13:32

fabulous teachers within the theater

13:34

company . So there was a lot

13:37

of learning . Again , I've always liked running things

13:39

, but of course you had to learn how to manage

13:41

something properly , you had to learn about employment

13:43

law . So I just learned everything and

13:45

I had a lot of fun learning , and that's

13:47

an issue I have . And

13:50

the moment when I thought , okay

13:52

, there might be something

13:54

else I can be doing as well , as was

13:57

when I went to a conference for theater

13:59

companies and somebody

14:01

, a guy called Toby Wilshire from

14:03

Tressel Theater Company , told

14:05

us about this program , training program they

14:08

had for corporations where

14:11

they used masks and

14:13

theater exercises to train people

14:15

in presentation skills et cetera . So I started

14:17

to look into this , I started reading about it

14:19

, I went on a course a

14:22

couple of quite a nice

14:24

long course and then I started

14:26

doing it . I found people who won . I

14:29

ran one free session for someone . They

14:31

gave me feedback . Then someone I knew

14:33

said hey , come and talk to us and they liked what I was saying

14:36

. So I did

14:38

something and I just learned that . And

14:41

you can see , like everything , there's something that interests

14:44

me and I learned it by doing it , and

14:47

sometimes I crash and sometimes

14:49

it goes quite well . But if you don't try , you

14:52

never know .

14:53

I guess , if you don't find and it seems

14:55

like you're , it's . I don't know as much as you said

14:58

at the beginning , your

15:01

career's got different aspects to it , but

15:03

it's like I said to me , lots

15:06

of the things that you've done are related and

15:08

it seems very logical to me . Is

15:11

that ? Was that deliberate , or is that no

15:13

, no , no , it's not deliberate .

15:15

I didn't . I mean , if you look at what I'm doing

15:17

now specifically as well , when

15:20

I'm doing podcasting and what is

15:22

it , and I'll say , oh yeah , the

15:24

training of virtual teams . These

15:26

are all relatively new things . When

15:30

I was I'm gonna show my age but

15:32

when I started my

15:34

studying training it was 1990

15:37

. So , boom , things

15:40

have changed so much and there's no way I could

15:42

see this . There was a point

15:44

where everything came together even more , which

15:46

is when this thing

15:49

about using theater in training

15:51

corporate training I was actually doing

15:53

team away days and leadership training

15:57

using physical theater , which

15:59

is something that it's something I love and that

16:01

was merging my interest in science

16:03

, in physiology , in psychology

16:06

. Theater , the corporate training , the

16:08

leadership , the experience it

16:10

really was bringing everything together

16:13

. Now it's gone a little bit well

16:15

, actually , it's just evolved . So I

16:17

think what might be happening it's

16:19

very interesting that you said that , because

16:21

I think what's happening is just that we develop some

16:23

strength and interests , and

16:26

even I might have not even have

16:28

realized that what I was doing was seeking when

16:31

, where can I do more of this ? I've

16:34

been doing it like this in this way , but maybe

16:36

if I do that and eventually you go well , actually , if

16:38

I do it this way , I do it better , or

16:41

I feel like I'm doing know what I'm doing if I

16:43

do it this way . So it's a

16:45

very I suppose it's quite instinctive way of of

16:48

shaping the career

16:50

. I have to say that the voiceover has

16:52

stayed all the way from when I've been voicing

16:54

since 1998 . I do a lot less

16:56

now , so I don't have a

16:58

proper home studio and a lot of work

17:00

has gone to the homes . But

17:02

that also just meant that I had an income

17:05

that was relatively constant

17:07

, which allowed me to play a lot more . I think

17:09

that's quite important to say .

17:11

So did you have like multiple ? It

17:13

seems like you've got multiple streams , but

17:15

all kind of running alongside

17:17

each other .

17:18

Yeah .

17:19

Okay , and remote work . As

17:21

I said , you're a massive advocate and an

17:24

expert where remote work is concerned and training

17:26

with remote work . I'm

17:28

trying to I could probably when

17:30

I'm looking at your various things , I'm

17:33

trying to see where that begun for you . Where

17:35

did that begin ? Where did that begin

17:37

to be important for you ?

17:40

So I was looking at the leadership

17:42

training et cetera , and

17:44

I started to just

17:47

see that the people

17:49

were talking about this thing called virtual team . So I

17:51

started to look into that and so two things happened

17:53

. One is , as I was looking into it , I started

17:55

blogging about it and

17:57

what I found was that the

18:00

pieces that were about that space

18:02

we're getting more attention that the pieces

18:04

about normal leadership . So

18:07

I thought , okay , the leadership

18:09

training arena is full

18:11

I mean , there's a lot of us there anyway

18:13

, in whatever aspect . But not many

18:15

people were doing that the virtual team

18:17

, remote work thing and I thought , well , also

18:20

, typically trainers are very people

18:22

people . And this

18:24

thing of using technology

18:26

to build teams to

18:28

like no , no , I'm a people person I

18:30

thought , great , gap , I can go in

18:32

there . I love technology . I've always thought

18:35

it's great , I have no issue with it . So

18:38

in my head , that's what was happening . At the same

18:40

time , a couple of things happened . My

18:43

father's got Parkinson's and he

18:46

was becoming more ill and more ill . So I was going more

18:48

to Madrid and I met my

18:50

husband in Holland . So

18:53

at one point , well , he wasn't yeah

18:55

, he wasn't my husband then , obviously , but

18:57

at one point I was going to London , madrid

18:59

, amsterdam , london I mean wonderful

19:02

life , everything , everything , everything

19:04

. I was gonna be between

19:07

three different places and

19:09

I was trying to build this team

19:11

building leadership , training , business , and I thought

19:14

this is really difficult . So I started to look at what

19:16

work was online , and this

19:18

is when people per hour was relatively

19:20

new . Fiverr was around

19:22

, but that's a different kind of thing

19:24

Upwork , which I didn't touch on people

19:26

per hour . So I looked for

19:29

work , I wrote some blog posts and

19:31

then there was a post for someone to moderate

19:33

the forum of an online

19:36

leadership course and like a credited

19:38

leadership course , and I thought I

19:40

can moderate the forum and

19:42

that's something that you can do from anywhere . So

19:45

I did that . And then

19:47

the lady was actually based in the UK . So

19:50

I even met her and met there were a couple of

19:52

people in the team then and

19:54

I stayed with that and then at some

19:56

point she said would you like to run a webinar ? And

19:58

I said , yeah , I can run a webinar

20:01

. So the lady who was in charge

20:03

of the webinar program taught me how to do

20:05

it and the first webinar I ran

20:07

and it was what was that ? Go

20:09

to webinar .

20:10

Okay .

20:11

On that platform only with slides

20:13

in the chat , talking

20:15

to people in the chat . Every now and then someone would

20:17

open the mic and I ended my first

20:19

session and I was sweating . Yes

20:23

, because I've been so engaged

20:25

and I was so into it and it didn't

20:28

matter . I felt like I was in a room full of

20:30

people .

20:31

Wow .

20:31

And this is one of the things why I stayed in that space

20:33

is that some people cannot connect

20:36

unless they have people around them physically

20:38

. For me it doesn't matter , just

20:40

with the chat , just with presence in

20:42

the chat . I felt like I'd been in a room full

20:44

of people and so , from

20:46

that , then the lady who was in charge of the webinar

20:48

program left , so I took that over and

20:51

then eventually I just thought , well , maybe I

20:53

can do more stuff . And then somebody actually

20:55

through LinkedIn said I see

20:57

, oh , I started to create an online course on

21:00

leading remote teams and someone saw

21:02

it . And they said , oh , could you turn that into an

21:05

in-person workshop ? And I said , yes

21:07

, I can do that .

21:08

When was that Pilo about ? What

21:10

time was that ?

21:12

That was 19, . Sorry , 2000

21:15

, maybe 18 .

21:15

Okay .

21:17

Yeah , something like that . So I did

21:19

a few years pre-corona of

21:21

thing and everything changed so much . So

21:26

, anyway , that was where the remote work came in . Is

21:28

I needed to ? I went into the space

21:30

and saw the need and just evolved

21:32

.

21:33

And have you ? I mean , there was a period where

21:35

I went back into the office myself and

21:38

, yeah , kind of reflected

21:40

. But has there ever been a time when you've had to do

21:42

that yourself or been in a

21:44

period where you've had to sort of dedicate yourself back

21:46

into an office environment again ?

21:48

Well , you're gonna laugh . So I've

21:50

been freelancing since

21:53

all my career . As you probably noticed

21:55

, I've been freelancing because I liked so many things

21:57

the only way of doing that . So I

22:00

had one time

22:02

when I used to go into an office . You

22:05

mentioned AOL , time Warner . I was

22:07

helping with some of the audio there for

22:09

the Spanish feed , the Spanish TCM

22:11

, and that was . I think it was one day a week or something and

22:14

I'd go into the office and the studio's there . The

22:17

other thing is the theater company had an office

22:19

and in fact I

22:21

remember sitting with the board of directors . The

22:23

office was also an issue because we're in London and

22:26

I didn't wanna find the . I don't really . I didn't

22:28

wanna move to have an office somewhere

22:30

, but we had an office at a very

22:33

highly reduced date , sorry rate

22:35

in central London and it was always

22:37

an issue in the board

22:39

. In the trustees meetings it was always an agenda

22:42

item what's happening with the office ? Because the lease was

22:44

about to expire or whatever , and

22:46

at one point I was like if we don't have

22:48

an office , we don't have a company , really

22:51

. Yeah , because that's

22:53

how it was .

22:54

Yes , yes , that's how it was .

22:56

If you didn't have that , you had no other place

22:58

for people to gather . And

23:00

then eventually cafes

23:03

started to open up in central London and

23:05

then it wasn't as important . Yeah

23:07

, just like you really just changed that

23:09

you could have meetings in , but there was a point if you didn't have

23:11

an office , you didn't know where to gather your

23:14

people . Yeah , and

23:16

so , yes , but since

23:19

we , since I love the theater company

23:21

, I started using co-working spaces

23:23

, but I rarely

23:25

use them anymore as well . I

23:29

am , I'm fine home . I've now my

23:32

life has a lot of . I do exercise

23:34

, so I go out once for a couple

23:36

of hours into the social

23:39

club . It's a gym , but it's also social

23:41

. And

23:44

yeah , I mean , if I had an office that was

23:46

really near and really comfortable I mean

23:48

, I am part of a co-working space , but it's not as comfortable

23:50

as this setup . This is the only thing . But

23:53

if I would , I would there , I'd

23:55

be there . We used to have this office in

23:57

Rupert street in Piccadilly . If

24:00

I could have a really cheap , nice office

24:02

there now where I was super as comfortable

24:04

as I was , then of course I would have it . But

24:07

it's not one thing

24:09

for the other . So yeah , Now

24:11

, that's .

24:11

That's it's funny to say about the , the

24:14

idea of if you don't have an office

24:16

, you don't have a business . Because before

24:19

I started , well , no , there was

24:21

a point where I actually , when I was working remotely , I didn't

24:24

actually tell anybody I

24:26

didn't have an office , because I

24:28

was actually quite afraid how they

24:30

would react to me . I had

24:32

, I had this on my

24:34

business card , I had this like a service office

24:36

, Uh-huh , yes , Service office address

24:38

, which made it look obviously as though I had

24:40

a . You know , I had an address which

24:43

which I didn't . It was just where I took

24:45

, well , I gathered all my letters , but

24:47

I would never tell anybody that I didn't have an office

24:49

. Because there was times when I did

24:52

tell people and they would say , basically

24:54

, their whole sort of demeanor and

24:57

their mood towards me would change because they think

24:59

, what kind of serious business person doesn't

25:01

have a , doesn't have an office

25:03

? You know in , and

25:06

it's just amazing how you know , okay

25:08

, there's still a way to go in terms of remote

25:11

work being taken , you know

25:13

, seriously , visual , virtual work

25:15

being taken seriously , but back then , it's

25:17

so much different now then

25:19

to what it is now , isn't it ?

25:22

Yeah , completely . There's a

25:24

lot of people have told me the same thing as well

25:26

that they didn't mention to

25:29

their clients or potential clients . I think

25:31

I think now that's that's different

25:34

, which is great , even that that's

25:36

been one big . Some

25:38

things changed after the pandemic and some

25:40

things haven't , but I think that's changed that actually

25:43

now people know that you can run a

25:45

successful business , that actually having an office

25:47

is probably a choice , and

25:51

I'm really happy about that . But

25:53

then for me it wasn't .

25:54

It was the place where people gathered

25:56

and yeah , so

26:00

you're gathering , you say co-working

26:02

spaces , but again , like me , I've got access to co-working

26:05

cafes . Well , we're

26:07

in London , so you basically can go anywhere . But

26:09

I mean , although I go out , probably

26:12

once a week , maybe sometimes

26:14

twice a week , I'm like

26:16

I love my home set up because it's just so

26:18

, it's just like so comfortable , it's like it

26:21

fits me like a glove and I

26:23

can play my music in the background when I'm

26:25

doing work or , you know , put my headphones on

26:27

if I'm trying to focus , or whatever it may be . You

26:29

can never make a co-working space

26:31

as you want it to be , can you

26:33

? And it's kind of , it's just

26:36

so . Yeah , but that's

26:38

me , that's just me . But I

26:40

wanted to ask you , peter , as well . So

26:43

now you're doing virtual

26:46

, not distance is one of your main things . Tell

26:49

me , just give us an

26:51

example of the kind of clients

26:54

that you work with . I mean , you don't have to name them , but the kind of

26:56

clients that you work in , the kind of work that you're doing

26:58

. If you could , that'd

27:00

be great .

27:01

Yeah . So I ended

27:03

up some by choice , just by default

27:06

, working with traditional organizations

27:08

that are still trying to make remote

27:10

work work . I think

27:13

that's always . That was always my client

27:15

, actually , because I like that . I like

27:17

being the bridge . I

27:20

have a part of me which is very traditional

27:22

worker and then I have the part , but

27:25

this is the let's see what's next around the

27:27

corner and let's make it up as we go along , but

27:29

I like that . I've always enjoyed working with

27:32

the more traditional organizations

27:35

, maybe because that's maybe

27:37

because they're the ones that have a longer way to go , so

27:39

I feel I can help them a little bit more . So

27:41

within that over the last few years , it's been everything

27:44

seen , from small teams , so

27:46

very small companies , to intergovernmental

27:49

organizations , so really large

27:51

organizations , and some

27:54

hierarchical

27:57

, but maybe just because they haven't embraced

27:59

the transparency that online can bring

28:02

. So not because of anything , but just organizations

28:04

that are where it takes a long time to

28:06

do things . This kind of these

28:09

have seemed to be , seem

28:12

to have been my clients and what's

28:14

really important , I think what I've noticed is

28:16

that I

28:19

just have to enjoy working

28:21

, working with the person I'm working with

28:23

, so the learning and development or training

28:25

person . I really we really

28:28

have to be on the same wavelength at some

28:30

in some level . Now , it's not that

28:32

we agree on everything or see the world in exactly the same

28:34

way , but there's got to be something there where there's

28:36

such a mutual respect . And

28:39

I've really seen , like recently someone

28:41

invited me to to apply

28:44

for their to be on their books , basically

28:46

from having come in at Hogg and

28:48

we had to do . I had to go through all this official thing

28:50

, even though I'd already worked there a couple of times , and

28:53

my my contact , she just we

28:55

did this interview and she was . You could see that she

28:57

was asking all the questions to make me shine

29:00

and stuff like that , and it's really nice for

29:02

me it's very important to eventually

29:04

see the client as a collaborator . Some

29:08

some of the jobs have done that hasn't happened and it's

29:10

been like well , we just didn't , we

29:13

just saw the world in such different ways

29:15

that they didn't work and

29:17

so that . And then the kind of things I do well at

29:19

the . I think I'm in the end I'm just doing training

29:21

. There was a time I wanted to do more consultancy

29:24

, but in the end what

29:26

I'm seeing and I'm not quite

29:28

sure what I think about this is that most

29:30

organizations want you to come and do one session

29:32

about something and then that's it , and

29:36

I always wonder is that enough ? How

29:39

much can I do in two hours ? Yes

29:42

, and the truth is that you can

29:44

do a lot in two hours . Sometimes

29:47

you might just touch one or two people and

29:49

the light bulb goes off for them , and that's enough . Other

29:52

times , you can see that more people

29:54

want to do something different after you've been

29:56

with them . But one of

29:58

the last pieces I did was really

30:00

nice , was a little bit longer , because it was

30:02

about asynchronous communication , and

30:05

that's what I'm focusing on now , because

30:08

I don't know if you've noticed , in the remote space

30:10

, everyone was doing remote , remote and I were going

30:12

. Oh okay , remote is huge .

30:15

Some areas yeah .

30:16

Yeah , now that it really exploded . Some

30:18

people are doing well-being , some people are . A lot

30:20

of us are doing asynchronous , because

30:22

that's the piece that's missing now in remote

30:25

collaboration for most people . So

30:28

we were doing , and the client wanted

30:30

me to come and do a webinar so very

30:32

traditional again , but with cameras

30:34

on this time and

30:37

because that's how she thought it would land

30:39

better and what people could do . So

30:41

what we did do was set up a space

30:43

where they could discuss some stuff ahead

30:45

of time , like

30:47

in teams . My

30:51

colleague and I , who I was running it with , recorded

30:53

a little piece just to introduce asynchronous

30:56

communication . So nobody turned up at the webinar

30:58

. We had to start right from the beginning . What is

31:00

asynchronous communication ? So

31:02

we did that and then we

31:04

created a guide to go with the webinar

31:06

so that people could do

31:09

continue asynchronously . They

31:12

might still be in that team space . I don't

31:14

know what's going on , but that's

31:17

a much more satisfying piece

31:20

of work because it's got a little bit more

31:22

of a chance of making a difference

31:24

.

31:26

Yeah , it's important . I think what I'm seeing

31:28

a lot is yeah , there's more discussions

31:31

around asynchronous work , but

31:34

there's still I

31:36

don't know if you're feeling this as well in

31:39

terms of the online stuff . I don't know if this is a reflection

31:41

of how the real world is , but there's

31:43

still a lot of conversations around mainly

31:49

castigating

31:53

remote work . There's lots of

31:55

people who are still not quite there

31:58

. Obviously , there's lots in the news about bosses

32:00

saying that workers should come back into

32:03

the office and are

32:06

you getting an impression of

32:08

remote work ? There's

32:11

still people perhaps not taking

32:14

it as seriously as it

32:16

might be taken .

32:18

So I don't know the number of the episode

32:20

, but the episode that's coming out on the what's

32:23

four and seven 11th of May . I

32:25

discuss a lot of this with Maya in the 21st

32:28

century work life , because this is happening

32:30

now and there's a lot of stuff happening

32:33

which is we're

32:35

still people are still working

32:37

out what is good for them

32:39

, what is good for the organization . A

32:42

lot of the people who are making the decisions

32:44

of how remote we can be

32:47

or their hybrid setup , or whether remote

32:49

work is even allowed now , are

32:52

people who haven't been in that

32:54

world . You think about

32:56

what their version of remote work

32:58

was . It was probably madly being

33:00

in meetings all day trying to rescue

33:03

the business or trying to see what

33:05

do we do . So a lot of the experience

33:08

of the people making the decisions is not a

33:10

good version of online collaboration

33:12

and remote work , so that's something

33:14

we need to bear in mind . It's

33:17

a shame , but it's happening and

33:19

we'll see where it all lands and

33:21

we are still in flux . They

33:24

will . We see companies going yeah

33:26

, people can do this or no , we can't or no

33:28

. Yes , we can or no , we can't . And in

33:30

a way , sometimes you think , well , they've got to try

33:32

something and they've got to say something

33:34

, what I think is a shame

33:36

. And , interestingly , we just go back to

33:39

I think it was October 2020, . I was on

33:41

a I did like a panel thing with

33:43

an organization in Spain and they

33:45

said what do you think is going to happen after the ? How

33:48

are we going to come out of the pandemic regarding

33:50

remote work ? And I said , well , we're going to

33:52

see companies that are office first

33:54

probably didn't use that term , but I said people

33:56

who say everyone in the office at the

33:58

other end of the spectrum will continue to have fully

34:00

distributed companies , and then you have a whole

34:02

thing in the middle . And the important

34:04

thing about this that is different to the before

34:07

the pandemic is that now people might have a choice

34:09

. Now everyone has a choice of where

34:11

they work , because now everyone is that fortunate or

34:13

how they work . But the people who have

34:15

a choice will look for that . And

34:17

if you're someone who wants to go into the office five

34:20

days a week and you want a culture where

34:22

that is important , hopefully you'll have

34:24

places to go to , and

34:26

if you want the opposite , you have to

34:28

. Hopefully there's that choice . So my hope

34:30

is that , yeah , jp Morgan

34:32

has said all the managers need to be in the office

34:35

because this and that Well , let's see what JP Morgan

34:37

is in 10 years time , and maybe it

34:39

does really well , but everyone

34:41

there has a certain way of working . The

34:44

other thing I think we need to bear in mind is the reasons

34:46

that people are giving are sometimes not great

34:49

. I just wish they said , look , we can't make it

34:51

work . Like I think it was one

34:53

of the Google guys said I don't know how

34:55

you train managers to be remote . Great

34:58

, that's what we need . We just need more transparency

35:00

of look , we just think this is not working for us

35:02

for these reasons , but not

35:04

because you can't do collaboration , not

35:06

because you can't do productivity . It's like

35:08

we know you can do all of that . It's just look

35:10

, we haven't figured it out and we've

35:12

decided that , instead of trying to figure it

35:14

out , we need to get out with a business

35:16

. We need to continue doing this . We need to continue

35:19

that . We don't have time to explore that . We're

35:21

just going back to how it was . Okay

35:23

, it's a shame , but payhold , I

35:27

don't mind the organization

35:30

saying we don't want people to work remotely

35:32

, but don't say it's because remote

35:34

work doesn't work .

35:35

Yes , 100%

35:37

agree . That's

35:41

probably a lack of acceptance that

35:43

the future is . There's

35:46

a what's the word ? Sort of like

35:48

a spectrum of different

35:50

ways of working , like

35:52

you say . Well , like you're inferring , is that there's

35:55

not an acceptance that some people prefer

35:57

to work this way and there's other people on this spectrum

36:00

that prefer to work that way ? Yeah

36:03

, it's something that's it's

36:06

difficult . It's very difficult because I think even

36:08

the idea of hybrid work to me

36:10

is quite difficult . There's a

36:12

challenge where hybrid work is concerned , and I can see

36:14

, because when I interviewed Nick Francis

36:17

a few years ago , obviously

36:19

Nick Francis remote first

36:21

, you know , remote first CEO , and

36:23

I was thinking back then when I first spoke

36:25

to him , when he said to me you know , because

36:28

obviously his theory and his ethic

36:30

is around remote first being the

36:34

best way for his company to work

36:36

. And if you've got a blend of sort

36:38

of like remote and

36:40

hybrid , that's where it becomes even more

36:42

challenging to keep people

36:45

on board with the culture , you know , career

36:47

development , all those different things . I hope you think you loved it

36:49

. It was only when I started

36:51

to sort of really

36:54

think about how many different things

36:57

that hybrid managers have to do in order to keep

36:59

their team engaged , that

37:02

I realized how what Nick

37:04

Francis said was you know it

37:06

really made sense to me . Then there's

37:08

so many things I mean you have to . You

37:10

know , if you're working in a hybrid situation

37:13

, there's gonna be some people that may come

37:15

in more than others or have more interaction with a

37:17

manager than others , as others that might

37:19

not . You know , somebody might come in a different

37:21

day or just totally different complexities

37:25

to it . So I don't know , I

37:27

can't see myself how it's gonna sort of shape

37:29

up , and I'm sure there are other . I'm

37:32

sure there are hybrid teams out there

37:34

that are doing it successfully and in fact I'd probably like to have

37:36

a couple of them on the podcast .

37:37

Well , you know , when

37:41

just before the pandemic , I think

37:43

was 2019 Gallup surveyed

37:46

engagement for remote workers and

37:48

they said the highest engagement

37:50

was for those I think it was

37:52

either three who were either three or four days

37:54

not in the office . So already

37:57

before then , remote

37:59

actually didn't mean that a

38:01

whole team was away from the office and it

38:03

didn't even mean that one person was 100%

38:06

of the time away from the office . Remote then

38:08

also meant that sometimes people

38:10

were working not in the office , but

38:13

because that was probably not

38:15

that widespread , then it was just remote

38:17

. So I think that hybrid

38:20

already existed before , but

38:22

we didn't call it that way . The

38:24

other thing is that hybrid is very

38:26

difficult and one

38:28

I'm hearing you speak . It just needs a lot

38:31

more coordination and deliberate communication

38:33

than remote only or office

38:35

only . So people have

38:37

to work a lot harder , and I'm not sure that

38:39

everyone really wants to do that . And

38:43

the other thing is that what we're going to see as well

38:45

and this might not be very popular

38:48

, I don't say this often is that people

38:50

who want to work because there are a lot of employees

38:52

who want to work in a hybrid way it's

38:55

not just the organization saying we want to see

38:57

people in the office . People are saying what I want

38:59

is to work a couple of days from home , or three

39:01

days from home , and I want the office . However

39:03

, that means that the employers have

39:06

to keep those offices ready , and

39:09

not just ready . They have to be the kind of

39:11

place that people , when they come in , feel

39:13

welcome . But I think at some

39:15

point and this is already happening actually

39:18

there's going to be not just forced

39:20

going into the office from people

39:22

who want to use those buildings , but there's going

39:24

to be forced working from home from organizations

39:27

that say you know what doesn't

39:29

make any sense . So I'm sorry , if you

39:31

want to come into the office two days a week because you're going

39:33

to leave the house , we don't have

39:35

an office for you anymore .

39:36

Wow .

39:37

Yeah , and

39:39

that , of course , why would

39:41

you ? Why would you ? But

39:44

again , this is , I mean , the

39:46

situation we're in about it , alex , if you think about

39:48

it is really weird , because if

39:50

you have the same job I mean I'm

39:52

not employed and

39:55

if you had the same job in 2019

39:57

as you have now , you might

39:59

not have signed up for the conditions in which

40:01

you are now . You didn't sign up

40:03

for that . So there's going to

40:05

be a time when now people need to , at some

40:08

point , know what , how their

40:10

work life is going to continue with regards

40:13

to that organization , so that they can make , hopefully

40:15

, a choice about whether they continue or not

40:17

. But at the moment and this is why it's so

40:19

difficult is people are

40:21

like I didn't sign up for this , I

40:24

didn't sign up to work from home all the time from

40:26

people who were going to the office and

40:28

people who have to go to the office all the time are like I

40:31

didn't sign up for a workplace that didn't

40:33

listen to what had been going on for the last three

40:35

years . Yeah , so this

40:37

, oh .

40:39

Lots of complexities .

40:40

Yeah , I did a session on the psychological contract

40:42

for a client , because this is what's happening

40:45

is everyone's unspoken

40:47

contracts and what we expected from

40:49

each other and from our employees

40:51

have been broken and we need to talk

40:53

about it because expectations we had

40:56

before might not be the same and anyway , it's

40:58

a huge . That's why it's so fascinating

41:00

. It is fascinating .

41:02

It is fascinating and

41:04

I see you know what you just

41:06

said is big as well having the discussions around

41:09

it , the contracts and all that sort

41:11

of thing and the way it sort of plays out

41:13

to me every day when I'm looking because I look online

41:15

, I look at , you know , when

41:17

I'm dealing with my clients I'm helping to find work , for example

41:20

, and

41:22

, like what you said , there's some of my clients who are

41:24

very much about . They don't want to go back

41:26

to the office , there's others that want to go

41:28

back to the office and there's some in the middle but

41:31

their lives are not is not made very easy

41:33

by some of the job adverts that you see

41:35

on . You know some of the job adverts you see online

41:38

. I mean LinkedIn is just

41:40

one example where you've got some company

41:42

saying you know , remote

41:44

, friendly or remote first

41:47

, or

41:49

fully remote , 100% remote or remote open

41:52

to remote . You know

41:54

what I mean .

41:54

Open to remote Okay .

41:57

It's just like what does that actually mean ? So

41:59

I think I don't know if it was you that said online

42:01

I think it might have been you that there

42:03

needs to be sort of a definition

42:06

for what , what

42:09

? What do you mean by remote work

42:11

? Because I think now even somebody

42:13

like who's it ? I think , is it GitLab

42:15

? I think they , they , they call

42:17

themselves all remote and

42:21

that that confuses . That's confusing in its . I'm

42:23

not saying that they're confusing , but I'm saying these

42:26

different definitions confuse

42:28

people . And then the people that write the job

42:30

descriptions and the adverts , who

42:32

perhaps were that good at writing adverts anyway to

42:34

begin with , are now trying to tempt people

42:36

by saying , oh , what would

42:39

this that would do that ? But it's , it's , it's

42:41

confusing me , you know .

42:45

I think , just thinking back to whether I said I

42:47

think I might have been talking about hybrid , specifically

42:49

, right , the , the , because , yes

42:51

, remote first , full remote , blah

42:53

, blah , blah , blah , all of that is confusing . I think that

42:55

hybrid is that times

42:57

three times confusing , because hybrid

42:59

means nothing . I

43:02

mean hybrid can mean , and also

43:04

, I think we're

43:06

still . We're still talking about location

43:08

. What is this ? What does hybrid

43:11

mean ? Does it mean hybrid choice ? Does it mean

43:13

that you have a choice ? Does it mean that you're working

43:15

with P in an environment where there's so much

43:17

independence that everyone

43:19

does what they want , because some people might

43:21

not want to work in a team where everyone can choose

43:23

where they work because that might not be what

43:25

they like . So , yes

43:28

, I think that , yeah , I

43:30

think at some point , hopefully , the

43:32

hybrid first , I don't know . Hybrid

43:35

, the three , two , hybrid , autonomous

43:38

, hybrid , dictated , remote

43:40

, dictated , working from hundred . Take the co-working

43:42

enabled . We

43:45

can think of lots of definitions .

43:47

There is so many definitions and that's

43:49

yeah , but hopefully , I mean , I

43:52

don't know how this is all going to sort of sort

43:55

of pan out and how it's all going to sort of set

43:57

yourself down , but I think , yeah

44:00

, it'd be interesting to see what things happen . I

44:02

think somebody said I think who was it that

44:04

came on the podcast and was saying to me that this

44:06

year and the beginning of next year is going to be the year

44:09

of sort of get people

44:11

getting back into the office or businesses saying

44:13

come back in the office . And

44:15

he said that , as of you know , maybe

44:18

tail end of 2004 , beginning of 2005

44:20

, that it's going to be more

44:23

around things

44:25

going to settle down and then we're going to see a bit

44:27

more definition

44:29

in terms of the companies that are more

44:32

comfortable to say fully remote

44:34

or whatever . It's remote first

44:36

, but be

44:38

interested to see what the future holds , you know , but

44:40

we will see , we will see and

44:43

we shall see . And for you

44:45

, pila , because there's

44:47

so many avenues in which your

44:50

career can go down , you have your freelancers , you

44:52

said and you've done a variety

44:54

of things but , as I mentioned , all interconnected

44:57

. If

44:59

your career , if

45:01

you visualize your career as like a staircase

45:04

. How far

45:06

are you along that ? How far are you up that staircase

45:08

?

45:12

Well , if I were 20 , I would say

45:14

at the bottom , but not

45:16

20 . Just

45:19

from . So I am shifting

45:21

how I look at my life . Anyway , I

45:24

want to do more writing . I'm

45:27

learning to write fiction as well

45:29

. There's just a lot of stuff that I'm trying

45:32

to do and

45:34

I am at the beginning of where I want

45:36

to be in 10 years time , if I get

45:38

there , because what

45:40

I want to , I want to have a lot more

45:42

sources of income and

45:44

I want to productize a lot of what I'm

45:46

delivering now . I really want to do that

45:49

, in fact . I want , in fact , if

45:51

you or anyone listening knows of a

45:53

way of delivering audio courses

45:55

that is easy , where you can

45:57

charge not through a podcast , not through

45:59

teachable then let

46:01

me know , because I think that I would love

46:04

to do that . I want , in fact , I've been creating with

46:06

a colleague hopefully we'll get it out

46:08

at some point this year an audio course

46:10

about asynchronous , and I think

46:12

I would like to do a lot more of that . I want

46:14

to create audio courses that people can

46:16

listen to and reflect on

46:18

away from the computer . So

46:20

I want to do that . I want to do

46:22

more writing and find what

46:25

ways of income

46:27

I can create as a creator , as an artist

46:29

I'm . Also I

46:31

want to go into the self-help arena

46:33

because I've been doing some doodles with Happy

46:36

Day C , which is where

46:38

she's got this message of slow down

46:40

and smell , slow down and smell the coffee

46:43

kind of thing , and so , and

46:45

again , I'm learning . I'm learning how to draw comics

46:47

, so I just there's a whole new way

46:50

of . I read somewhere

46:52

that work is how we express ourselves

46:54

, and that has been so true

46:56

for me and I think I'm now ready to just

46:58

make it about self-expression rather

47:00

than anything else . So I am at

47:02

the bottom because I am shifting

47:05

, I'm completely shifting

47:07

, and I

47:09

think I'm ready to leave some

47:11

parts of my professional career behind

47:14

. I'm not ready to leave some others

47:16

. So I

47:18

think I'm yeah , if it were a

47:20

staircase , I'm definitely at

47:22

the bottom and I'm rolling a . There's a lot more to come .

47:27

There's more to come . I wouldn't say you're crawling with talk

47:29

. I think there's the message I got from that is lots

47:31

more to come . And I think there's so many different

47:33

averages and I think , yeah , audio

47:35

I think is going to be as

47:38

big as it is now , but it's going to

47:40

get even bigger

47:42

. And you

47:44

know , back to the idea of remote

47:46

work and async work . There's

47:50

still not complete clarity on how that's all

47:52

done . So if you can deliver that in an audio

47:54

course , then you

47:57

could be onto something there .

47:59

I hope so , and it's pitched what's really interesting

48:01

? So , without going off on another tangent

48:03

, what's really interesting at the moment is there is a lot

48:06

like this week I

48:08

there's a lovely guy who's about to

48:10

publish with the mainstream

48:12

book on async , so

48:14

I got that to have a look and give an endorsement

48:17

. Someone else also

48:19

got in touch with me and said can you have a look at

48:21

this stuff online which is all about async ? And then

48:23

I saw someone else post on LinkedIn . I've got

48:25

this new guide about async . There's

48:27

a lot of stuff that's coming out for

48:29

fully distributed

48:31

, mainly software developers , that kind

48:33

of . You mentioned GitLab . You know the

48:36

GitLab aspiring those

48:38

companies that aspire to be like GitLab . There's

48:40

a huge piece for organizations

48:43

like the ones I've been working with , which are the

48:45

traditional ones , which are not going

48:47

to use half of those terms

48:49

. They're not going to do all that stuff , but

48:51

need to make their remote work more sustainable

48:54

. So that's the space I'm looking at

48:56

, and I think our course is very basic

48:58

, but I think it just

49:00

touches on all the things that some

49:02

people have not had time to think about . So

49:05

, and yeah , in audio , I'm really excited

49:07

about finding a way there's still not a way

49:10

of delivering audio as courses

49:12

, but I think it's a matter of time before someone says

49:14

here's an app .

49:16

Yeah , because all you get really is you've got audio

49:18

books , but that's not really

49:21

a course , is it ? And then you've got I

49:23

mean , LinkedIn has started to test a lot of

49:25

audio now , so that kind

49:28

of is a clue as to what's to come , maybe .

49:31

Yeah , and to be honest , I haven't looked at how

49:33

that would work there , but the

49:35

LinkedIn courses and stuff are . I

49:38

mean , they're closed , so you need to be invited

49:40

to deliver them , which I suppose I could look into

49:42

, and they have been looking at

49:44

audio and even podcasts and stuff . One

49:48

of the online course platforms now

49:50

has come up with a mobile app

49:52

. That might be the solution

49:54

, because then you can have your PDFs in there

49:56

as well for reference and

49:58

there might even be a community featuring

50:01

it . But you don't need to

50:03

feel it can feel it

50:05

can be okay delivering audio through that

50:07

. So maybe that's the answer . But I definitely

50:09

agree with you that audio became

50:11

very big , has

50:14

become really big over the last five years , and

50:16

I think we're going to see more .

50:20

Maybe you could create your own platform . Maybe

50:22

it could be a new thing . I'm

50:24

trying to wrap my brain . I can't think of anything that just

50:26

delivers audio .

50:28

Well , if any developer is out there

50:30

because

50:32

I did , and I was talking to someone at

50:34

some point who was creating something , but I don't know what's

50:36

happened people come and go , but yeah

50:38

, I think that I want

50:40

to create something that I know will work

50:42

and that if someone , if

50:45

a learner , has a problem , that I'm not the

50:47

one they go to . So I want a platform

50:49

where they have a customer service so I don't have to

50:51

deal with that . So creating

50:53

something new might be a bit scary , but you know , let's

50:56

see . Watch the space Watch the space .

50:58

We'll be watching this space , definitely . Well

51:01

, I mean , it's been great having you on again , auti , but

51:05

I just wanted to ask

51:07

you finally , because we've

51:09

talked all about work what

51:13

do you do when you're not working ? What do you do ? You

51:15

gave us a bit of a clue in terms of some of the things

51:18

, like the gym . You mentioned the gym

51:20

. Are you a fitness ? What are the things

51:22

that you do when you're not working ?

51:24

So lots of stuff , because

51:26

something I've been really trying

51:28

to do over the last year was to

51:31

spend less hours at the computer

51:33

and work less

51:35

actually , and just the

51:37

reason I want to work less is so that I

51:39

can enjoy it more . So I don't feel like

51:41

I'm really done working and catching up . I know

51:43

I want to do things well , so I

51:46

actually take Fridays

51:48

off , but work on Saturdays , and

51:50

by work I mean editing

51:53

podcasts , which is so awesome , and

51:56

it's like being in a room

51:58

with my friends listening back to conversations

52:00

. So I love it . But I did that and

52:02

it's very interesting . If anyone has any flexibility . I

52:04

found that , because I take Friday off , saturday

52:07

is great because I have a lot of energy for

52:09

that last day . Then I take

52:11

Sunday off completely and then I start again

52:13

on Monday . I do pilates

52:15

, which is great for

52:18

Well , as a voiceover . It's great for the breath

52:20

something I discovered after

52:22

drama school and it's great for posture

52:25

. It's great for strength . It's like if anyone

52:27

is thinking about yeah , we're all

52:29

sitting up now . So pilates

52:31

. I do a dance class

52:33

. I used to do Zumba , but it's too cold in

52:36

the gym where I do it . I do a dance class

52:38

because I love dancing and this is just

52:40

like a fun dance class and then

52:42

I do another kind of pilates thing and then

52:44

I started doing yoga , which I really like

52:46

. I really like the teacher . She's like a . Really

52:48

Her style reminds me of the physical

52:50

theater tutors Really

52:53

just wonderful . I

52:55

read a lot . I love reading

52:57

. Every morning I read at least 20 minutes

53:00

and then throughout the day , if I can , fiction

53:02

. I also read a lot of nonfiction

53:04

and I watch a lot of television . I

53:06

love crime dramas , yeah .

53:09

Crime dramas .

53:10

Great , especially the foreign ones

53:12

.

53:14

What's the latest crime ? What kind I mean

53:16

? I don't get to watch a lot of TV

53:18

, but the last crime ? I don't know

53:20

if this counts , but the last crime drama I

53:22

watched was Breaking Bad .

53:24

Oh , I didn't ever watch that . I

53:27

know it was big , but I didn't watch

53:29

that at all .

53:30

I don't know if that counts as a crime drama , because I'm not

53:32

that into TV . As I said , Maybe

53:34

you do that .

53:36

Yeah , well , if anyone listening

53:38

does like crime drama . Well , we

53:40

don't have Netflix because we were going to

53:42

sign up to Netflix .

53:43

Oh , I see .

53:44

And we were going to sign up and we bought the Broku

53:47

the thing to go online and Channel

53:49

4 in the UK has so much stuff and

53:51

then we also still record from television

53:53

into a digital recorder . There's

53:55

just so much stuff . We don't need Netflix

53:58

, but there's a lot of

54:00

. Channel 4 in the UK has lots of Scandinavian

54:03

drama , lots of French crime

54:05

. That's just so great . And then I also

54:07

like cozy mysteries because that's what I'm writing . So

54:10

I also watch things like Private

54:12

Eyes or I was watching today

54:14

Rearounds of Castle . I don't know if you've heard

54:16

of that ?

54:17

I've not seen that . No , no , what's that about ?

54:18

Yeah , Castle is just Well

54:20

. They're now in season 17 , but I

54:22

used to watch it when it was season one . It was about

54:24

a crime writer that joins the police

54:26

or that is shadowing someone in

54:28

the police . So it's just like really

54:31

easy cases . It's just very cozy

54:33

dramas and you don't really see blood

54:35

. There's no real violence , it just

54:37

you know . They just solve the case and then you know

54:40

. You always know that the person who did it is

54:42

whoever . If they have a relatively

54:44

high-profile actor in the episode , that's

54:46

the person who did it .

54:47

That's the one that did it , so it's not difficult

54:49

to work out who did it .

54:51

So I love that , I love watching television

54:53

. I really , really do it . So , yeah , that's

54:55

the things I do , but

54:57

work is fun , so Well

55:00

, it's good to .

55:00

It's good when you can get to that point where work is fun

55:03

. There's not many people that I speak to who

55:05

have reached that point , and I

55:07

think everybody . What I'm going to

55:09

do is leave your details in the show notes , pilar

55:11

, because I think and

55:13

that's the reason why I did it back on the podcast , because I know that I

55:16

get a lot of inspiration from what you do with

55:18

the podcasting and your work , so I know that other people

55:20

can as well , and I just want to say thank

55:22

you again for being on the podcast and

55:24

we'll certainly be looking out for what

55:27

you do in the future , and

55:29

maybe there's a third episode in

55:31

the making at some point .

55:33

That would be great . Can I do something really quickly ? Something

55:35

I've realised through adventures in

55:37

podcasting and especially talking to Michelle

55:39

Ong , who's a lady who has steam-powered

55:42

podcasts talking to women in science

55:44

, and when we were talking

55:46

we thought one of the things that came out that

55:49

really struck me that I hadn't thought of before was

55:51

when we podcast . As podcasters

55:53

, of course , we connect with our audience

55:56

, so we create a space for ourselves . Then

55:58

we bring a guest and the guest wants to communicate

56:01

with the audience , and that is very important

56:03

as well . But what we also do

56:05

is we create a space for the guest

56:07

when we're doing interviews to

56:09

stop , and we create the

56:11

space for them to talk about their

56:14

work , to reflect on their stuff , and

56:16

your questions have been really amazing . So

56:18

thank you , because I really really

56:21

enjoyed that . It's just such a nice . You

56:23

created a really nice space for me , so I hope the

56:25

listeners also enjoyed it .

56:27

I loved it . It just feels like a great

56:29

conversation to me and , like I said , I hope

56:31

people can get some value I'm sure they can and

56:33

put your details in the show notes . But

56:37

, yeah , and it sounds

56:39

like there's a lot for you to come , it sounds like you're involved in

56:41

a lot of things . But , as I said , I'll be keeping an eye on things

56:43

and , yeah , hopefully speak

56:45

to you again soon , pilar .