0:00

Hello everybody . It's Alex here from

0:02

the remote work life podcast , and

0:04

I have a really important

0:06

guest with me today and I

0:09

have Martika Swabey . Martika Swabey who

0:11

is the founder of Benevolent

0:14

Health and Benevolent Health

0:16

specializing in providing expertise

0:18

in mental health through

0:20

consulting , coaching

0:22

and and mentoring so improving

0:24

emotional well-being through

0:26

coaching , consulting and mentoring

0:29

and I think Martika

0:31

is very important because , obviously , the conversation

0:34

around well-being at work

0:36

is has been a growing conversation over the last

0:38

few years now , but given

0:41

our current situation , in

0:43

the sense that we've been accelerated towards

0:45

working from home in very unusual circumstances

0:48

, martika's expertise

0:51

is very welcome and very

0:53

much needed . So I had

0:55

to have Martika on here today . So , martika , thank

0:57

you so much for giving of your time today for

0:59

the podcast .

1:01

Pleasure , alex , thank you so much for having

1:03

me . As you said , mental health is such

1:05

an important topic at the moment and

1:08

I think , uh , you know , with extended

1:10

lockdown periods and

1:12

you know , this sort of drastic

1:16

shift towards Remote working

1:18

has been a big change for some people

1:20

. I know , um , a lot of the people

1:22

that listen to your podcast have been remote

1:24

working for a long time , so much more

1:26

experienced with that , and but I do

1:29

think , um , you know , well-being

1:31

and staying Emotionally

1:33

resilient and healthy is always

1:35

an important topic and a topic

1:37

that is often overlooked in

1:39

in all of our lives , so it's

1:41

great to be here talking to you about that today .

1:44

No , you're very welcome . I just knew that

1:47

we had to have you on , martika

1:49

and um , towards

1:52

the the middle portion of the of the show , we're

1:54

going to really be talking about Really

1:57

, some , some key issues , or

2:00

some key , I suppose , what

2:03

would you call it ? I suppose techniques , maybe that

2:05

could help you to help you or

2:07

your team , um , if you

2:09

in a situation where your

2:12

team is perhaps not not

2:14

coping as well as they could be . So , um

2:16

, keep a , keep a listen out for

2:18

that . But what I really want to know , as

2:20

I always do with the podcast

2:23

, is Martika . I want to find out a bit more about

2:25

you first and how you got to where

2:27

you are Today , because you've

2:29

been practicing for a for a number

2:31

of years now .

2:33

Yes , so I've been working mental

2:35

health probably the last 15 years

2:38

and doing a range

2:40

of things . So you know , I really started

2:42

on front line working

2:44

with people , with fictions and

2:46

and then working with more complex

2:49

mental health like personality disorders

2:51

, bipolar and I

2:54

am retrained as a psychotherapist

2:56

nine years ago at Birkbeck a

2:58

university and my

3:01

study psychodynamic psychotherapy

3:03

and organizations and

3:05

and have been working as

3:07

a consultant and training in

3:10

corporate environments for the last five years now

3:12

. So I'm really taking

3:14

some of my skills online

3:17

because I think that in order

3:19

to reach more people , we really need to

3:21

have access to stuff

3:23

much more in the kind of what I would call the

3:25

preventative end

3:27

of mental health . So stress , anxiety

3:29

, depression , things that we all suffer with , and and

3:32

I think you know , when we speak about mental

3:35

health like we always assume

3:37

it's like some kind of really serious

3:39

issue

3:42

, like if you google mental

3:44

health , you see like people at silos yes

3:48

, look really scary

3:50

and you know it's still a lot

3:52

of stigma around mental health , even though you

3:55

know we are trying to shift that narrative

3:57

in the UK . But I think there's

3:59

something that people feel shameful or

4:03

disappointed in themselves if

4:05

they are struggling

4:07

with a mental health issue

4:10

. So I think that's probably where

4:13

it's good to start in terms of mental

4:15

health versus mental

4:17

illness , because I think that actually 75%

4:21

of the population I mean you've probably all

4:23

seen the stats one in four people will have

4:25

a mental health issue and really

4:27

what they're talking about is mental illness . So the

4:29

things that I've just identified

4:32

, but the reality is 75%

4:34

of us are in the mental

4:36

health category . So actually

4:39

, from the perspective of

4:42

mental health , we

4:44

are the people that are healthy and coping

4:47

and probably have quite a healthy

4:49

and balanced lifestyle and

4:51

physically , mentally and socially . But sometimes

4:54

we drop into that kind of struggling category

4:56

because something happens in our

4:59

life , like a bereavement or

5:01

a divorce or

5:03

some issues with our children

5:06

, or something happens

5:08

unexpected , even COVID . So

5:11

, that's come along and kind of disrupted

5:13

all of our lives and

5:15

the ramifications of this in terms

5:18

of business and finance is going to impact

5:20

us mentally

5:23

and socially . So it's easy

5:25

for anyone to kind of tip into that

5:27

and struggling category

5:31

and actually that's where you need to be

5:33

emotionally resilient

5:35

.

5:36

And what got you into this ? Because , I mean , obviously

5:39

this is where your passion lies and you've

5:41

helped a lot of people Well , not just individuals

5:43

, but , like you said , you help corporates as well

5:45

. What brought you to on this

5:48

path ?

5:49

So I mean , I

5:51

really have an interest in this . It's something

5:54

I love people , I love being around people

5:56

and I remember when

5:58

I was like 16 , 17

6:00

, just left school , started working in a bank

6:03

and thinking , oh my God , I'm going to be doing this till

6:05

I'm 60 . And I need

6:07

to do something that I love and like

6:09

I went to study counselling

6:11

and I remember

6:14

being like the youngest in the class and thinking

6:16

nobody's going to take me seriously

6:18

, you

6:21

know , in my early 20s

6:23

, and so I really went

6:25

out in the field and got a lot of experience

6:27

and I was talking about , you

6:30

know , earlier . I was talking about some of the

6:32

stuff that I've done in terms of frontline

6:34

and really seeing , like , different walks of

6:36

life and different people in

6:39

terms of mental

6:41

health and mental health issues . And it

6:43

was later that I came into doing consultancy

6:47

and working , you know , in large NHS

6:49

programs to change how we deliver

6:51

health to like health populations

6:53

and , more recently , corporates

6:56

. So my journey's been

6:59

one , I guess , of grassroots and

7:01

, you know , working at the frontline

7:03

, really working with people . But my heart

7:06

is to help people and I remember when

7:08

I was working in the NHS as a psychotherapist

7:10

and one of

7:12

my patients came in the room and he

7:15

told me he'd been on a waiting list

7:17

for like 18 months

7:19

. Thank you

7:21

, because this was someone that had a

7:23

lot of issues , really needed

7:25

therapy , had been through their

7:28

GP , been to kind of

7:30

what we call like a CBT

7:32

IAP type program . You know

7:35

where you get six weeks telephone support

7:37

or you know a counsellor

7:40

face to face , but very time limited , and

7:42

you know he had a lot of issues

7:44

that he really wanted to get underneath and were

7:46

keeping him stuck in life and I was like you

7:49

know , wow , the waiting lists are so

7:51

long in some areas for some people

7:53

and so actually , how can we get

7:55

this to people quicker ? And I believe

7:58

that it starts from a preventative perspective

8:00

and because actually , you know , if

8:03

we don't have an awareness

8:05

around mental health and

8:07

staying resilient , then it's much

8:09

easier to fall into those kind of struggling

8:11

and unwell categories . And unfortunately

8:14

, in 2018 , one of my

8:17

long term friends

8:19

who we've been to school with , grew up with

8:21

he really struggled

8:23

with his mental health and had gone to get help , perhaps

8:25

wasn't successful and unfortunately

8:28

he killed himself . And there's so

8:30

many people you know that are struggling

8:33

, suffering in silence , like something

8:35

like 800,000 people every year

8:37

commit suicide , and you

8:39

know suicide is not necessary

8:41

, they are

8:44

avoidable deaths . So you

8:46

know we really need to be more open

8:48

and honest about this stuff and be able

8:50

to feel comfortable to have

8:52

these conversations . So really

8:54

, that's why I'm on a mission to kind

8:56

of change the narrative on

8:58

mental health and make it a lot more accessible

9:02

for just everyday people .

9:04

And with that mission . Thank you for

9:06

that , Martik . I think that's great because with

9:09

that mission , do you think that

9:11

people are more freely and openly

9:13

having the conversations now than

9:16

they were ? Are you seeing any sort of like

9:18

changes , because now you deal with

9:20

individuals as well as corporates Are you seeing a bit more

9:22

freedom and a

9:25

bit more ? Some

9:27

of the stigma has been broken or they're still in place

9:29

.

9:29

Yeah , I mean , I think that we've come

9:31

a long way . You know , I think if you

9:33

look at the kind of history , particularly in

9:36

Britain , I think that

9:38

you know , sort of 50 years ago we had

9:40

those old school asylums . I

9:42

mean some people would say that they still exist

9:45

. When you look at kind of more serious mental

9:47

health issues , you know

9:49

where people are under

9:52

the Mental Health Act and are restrained

9:54

. That treatment is still

9:56

kind of similar to the old

9:58

asylum model . But

10:00

I think there is a recognition in

10:03

what I would call clinical , medicalized

10:05

world that actually mental

10:08

health isn't always about medication

10:10

and , you know

10:13

, treatment in a kind

10:15

of medicalized model . I think there's a lot

10:17

more openness and we're a lot more aware now

10:19

of actually , you know , our nutrition

10:21

impacts our moods and our mental health

10:23

and exercise does and

10:26

all of these alternative holistic

10:28

approaches . So mindfulness has become

10:30

much more popular in

10:34

this day and age . You know

10:36

yoga and I think people are much

10:38

more open to kind of spirituality , and

10:40

I'm not just talking about , you know

10:42

, organized religion , even though

10:44

that has massive impacts on mental

10:47

health and community . I'm

10:49

talking also about art , music

10:51

, drama and being able to express yourself

10:53

creatively . I think there's , you

10:55

know , much more openness to recognize

10:58

these things actually impact how

11:00

we feel and connect as

11:02

human beings . So I think

11:04

we have moved on . But when you

11:06

look at , you know , if you look at

11:08

kind of traditional corporate models

11:10

in terms of treatment

11:13

to mental health , if you look at the best

11:15

EAP programs so the employee

11:18

and support assistance programs

11:20

actually the uptake of

11:22

those is usually around 7%

11:25

. In a really good one , you might

11:27

get it up to sort of 10 , 11% . So

11:29

, and when you Pharma

11:32

did a report in 2018

11:35

around the state of play

11:37

with mental health across the nation

11:39

and it was something like 11%

11:41

of people would tell their line manager if they were

11:43

struggling with a mental health

11:46

issue . And then you look at the

11:48

stats on the back of that , so you

11:50

know absenteeism and reasons

11:52

people are off sick and actually

11:54

musculoskeletal issues is

11:57

kind of the number one issue and

12:00

you know , when we look at this , actually

12:02

how much is stress

12:04

, how much stress is impacted

12:06

on those kinds of injuries like back

12:09

pain and other

12:11

musculoskeletal

12:14

illnesses . So they're all interlinked

12:16

and actually , how do we start to unpick those

12:19

and understand what it really is ? But

12:21

the reality is most of us wouldn't be comfortable

12:23

phoning up our boss and saying

12:25

you know I'm really stressed today . I

12:27

can't come into work . It's still seen

12:29

as a bit of a cop out or

12:31

an excuse that you're making

12:33

and some people will always use you

12:36

know , a headache on

12:39

a Friday afternoon or you know whatever

12:41

it is to make

12:43

excuses . But some people are actually really

12:46

, really genuine and you know how

12:48

can we make those

12:50

kinds of conversations and discussions

12:52

more acceptable and reduce

12:55

that stigma .

12:56

Yeah , and I think that's a good segue

12:58

, isn't it , into the conversation

13:01

that we want to have really , which is around how

13:03

we can help

13:05

managers ? I guess in

13:08

a way to I

13:11

suppose , I don't know , is

13:14

it identify those things in their teams

13:16

, or because

13:18

, really well , first

13:20

and foremost that you mentioned at the

13:22

top the differences between

13:25

mental health and mental

13:27

illness . Should we just explore that for a little bit before

13:29

we dive into the discussion about how

13:33

, basically , you could help managers or how managers

13:35

can help their teams ? What are

13:37

those differences between mental

13:40

health and mental illness ? Because

13:42

you said that was it . 75%

13:44

of us fall into that mental health

13:46

category .

13:47

Yeah , so I think typically

13:50

we look at mental health and , like

13:52

I said , we think about mental health as mental

13:54

illness . So you know we have

13:57

this kind of stigma around

13:59

the word mental health and actually

14:02

I see mental health and

14:05

what I teach in the programs

14:07

that I offer is

14:10

actually mental health around . I call

14:12

mental fitness . So sleep

14:14

, nutrition , fitness , stress

14:17

, anxiety and

14:20

all those kinds of I would

14:23

call lower level mental

14:25

health issues that we can all

14:27

tip into the struggling

14:30

or unwell side . But actually

14:32

when we think about mental health , often we think about

14:34

mental illness and mental illness

14:37

being something that's

14:39

more formally diagnosed and recognised like

14:42

bipolar disorder or personality disorder or

14:46

suicide and mental health . So the

14:48

more people fall into this kind of mental health and

14:51

mental health problems , the more

14:53

people that fall into this kind of mental health

14:56

and mental health problems

14:58

and the more serious

15:00

end of the spectrum . And I'm not saying that

15:03

those things are important and

15:06

we shouldn't have an awareness of them , but

15:09

actually I think from a preventative perspective , to

15:14

stop people falling into the more serious of

15:16

the spectrum and actually if we could increase the

15:18

awareness of how to stay mentally

15:21

fit and healthy there

15:23

and recognise when

15:26

you're perhaps working under a bit too much

15:28

pressure . Actually

15:30

we can really have an impact on

15:33

that , whereas I think once you tip

15:35

into being unwell and mental illness

15:37

, the trajectory or recovery

15:40

is much

15:42

longer . So I

15:44

think to have the most impact and

15:46

we definitely need to focus on

15:48

the healthy coping end

15:50

of the spectrum the 75%

15:53

as opposed to mental

15:55

illness . And if you like reading papers

15:57

and you're interested in that sort of stuff , keys and

16:00

Hubbert have got a really good paper on

16:02

that around the mental health spectrum and

16:04

they talk a lot about kind of how

16:07

to you know the messaging around

16:09

healthy and balanced lifestyle

16:11

for physical , mental and social wellbeing

16:14

.

16:16

I'll have to refer to that , I think , in the show notes , because I

16:18

think I'm sure there will be people out there who

16:20

are interested in

16:22

this , whether from a point of view of being a manager

16:24

or being in that situation themselves

16:26

. I think it's important that we link to that , so I'll

16:29

get the link from you at the end of the show so we can

16:31

include that . What's some of the ? Sorry

16:33

? Go ahead , martika .

16:34

The important thing is and what I

16:36

kind of want to bring home is actually mental

16:38

health . We all have mental health , you

16:40

know we all have it , and it's not

16:42

something that's out there or

16:45

affects somebody else . We all

16:47

have mental health .

16:49

No , I can imagine , and I

16:51

think it's probably like

16:53

you said , that 75% is a big number

16:56

and I'm sure there are people who

16:58

have issues that perhaps they don't

17:01

recognise in themselves or probably they don't recognise

17:03

in other people who are on

17:05

their team , and they just soldier on

17:08

and I suppose that's the whole . You

17:10

know the British mentality , which I suppose

17:12

has changed a bit , having that stiff up a lip

17:14

and just sort of really digging in there

17:16

and getting on with certain things , you know , but it

17:19

doesn't always Things

17:21

just get worse , don't they ?

17:22

Yeah , I mean , I think if you're a home worker

17:25

as well or remote working , you used to work

17:27

in kind of by yourself and

17:29

on your own initiative . I think you perhaps

17:31

have more of a valence tendency to just

17:33

get on with stuff , because actually

17:35

that's why you're most

17:38

of the time working remotely

17:40

is because you are a kind of go-getter

17:42

and can , you know , get on with things

17:45

and don't necessarily need

17:47

that environment

17:49

where you're kind of you know , in a structured

17:52

environment where you're given

17:54

tasks and told what to do , that you can

17:56

, you know you can think quite easily

17:58

independently . And I think one

18:00

of the challenges are , when you work

18:02

remotely or independently actually

18:05

is a susceptibility

18:08

to kind of isolation or

18:11

loneliness and actually connection

18:13

. Community is one

18:15

of the biggest things people

18:17

look for in terms

18:19

of improving their mental health . They want a community

18:22

that they can connect with and that

18:25

provides support . I mean , in my years

18:27

of working in this field and

18:29

you know where you see people recover

18:31

and get better and really change

18:34

their lives are people that are connected

18:36

into something beyond the kind

18:38

of treatment , if you like

18:41

, all the mental health kind of medicalized

18:43

pathway in terms of medication

18:46

and go to the doctor , psychiatrist

18:49

, therapist for treatment . It needs to be

18:51

much broader than that . It really needs to be

18:53

integrated into our you know

18:55

, into our community and to our social

18:57

networks . So I think

18:59

there's probably a susceptibility

19:02

to not ask for help

19:04

if you're

19:06

struggling . And also if you're a manager

19:09

managing remote workers

19:11

, it's really hard sometimes to

19:13

notice changes in your team

19:15

or notice those early morning signs . So

19:18

, you know , for persons , behavior changes

19:20

and they have decreased

19:22

productivity or performance or a low

19:24

morale , and I think

19:27

it's much harder to recognise

19:30

that when you're not in the same space with someone

19:33

seeing them every day and because

19:35

there's not that connection . And

19:37

so I guess , as managers , as

19:39

remote workers , how

19:42

do you create those

19:44

communities , those connections with

19:47

your staff , with each other , to

19:50

have that ? I know personally . I mean

19:52

I homework a lot and

19:55

one of the things that I'm

19:57

much more proactive with as

20:00

a business owner is

20:02

having networks and being

20:05

accountable to

20:07

a network , a community

20:09

, a mentor . So I

20:11

always have a mentor I

20:13

find that really helps me to stay accountable

20:15

and focused and where I can be really open

20:17

and honest and also a

20:20

community of other

20:22

like minded people that

20:24

are in a similar situation

20:26

. You can just reach out to them and

20:28

have a meet-up . I know with

20:30

lockdown that's changing that and

20:33

also for me , I'm part of a

20:37

shared working space where I go and

20:39

work and I see regular

20:41

people . But I've really had to make

20:43

an effort since I transitioned to working

20:46

at home . In the last five years

20:48

I've really had to make an effort

20:50

in terms of my network

20:53

kind of outside of work and

20:55

maintaining that

20:57

network and putting more of an effort

20:59

into having regular meet-ups

21:02

with colleagues , with

21:04

friends , with other

21:06

professionals and all my routines

21:08

that go around that . So , like my gym workouts

21:13

, I've got a group of friends

21:15

from the gym that I see

21:18

regularly . Obviously now with lockdown

21:20

we are not able to do that , but

21:23

before that and

21:25

the things that you enjoy that

21:27

you make sure you schedule in those

21:29

activities that you

21:34

like and enjoy . So a lot of that's been

21:36

done on Zoom now and I know people are

21:38

trying to get to that , having

21:40

Zoom fatigue . But yeah , once

21:42

we get back to the

21:45

new normal or going out again

21:47

, it's like how do you have those connections

21:50

outside of

21:53

your being kind of remote

21:56

working , potentially

21:58

by yourself all day or

22:00

just with your family ?

22:02

Going back to what you said about warning

22:05

signs , because

22:07

, like you said , there's not as much

22:09

contact when you're working remotely . You

22:11

don't have those spontaneous

22:14

interactions where you can observe somebody's body

22:16

language in the same way that you would , as if

22:18

they were right in front of you . How

22:21

do you then begin

22:24

to ? I know you mentioned productivity levels , but

22:27

how do you spot those warning signs ? What are

22:29

the symptoms that you could potentially look

22:33

out for ? Are they any physical , or how

22:36

do they sort of show themselves ?

22:38

So I think it's really one of the things

22:40

that people ask me all the time

22:42

is around how to have

22:45

conversations about

22:48

mental health . How do you bring it up , how do

22:50

you have these discussions and what do you say

22:52

? People ask me all the time what do you say ? And

22:55

the reality is that you can't really script this

22:57

. That's the truth . So anyone

22:59

that tells you you can , they're not telling

23:02

you the truth . But what I want you to think

23:04

about is a frame , and

23:06

I want you to think about a frame

23:08

in terms of the cycle of change

23:10

and the idea

23:13

that actually , people are

23:15

either not aware

23:17

that they need to change and

23:19

have no idea of

23:21

change and what we call that pre-contemplative

23:24

or they do have an awareness

23:27

and they want to take some kind

23:29

of action , but they're not sure yet

23:31

, or they're not sure how to do it , or

23:33

they might be taking an action , but actually

23:35

, if someone's taking an action and doing something

23:37

, then I'd say that they're pretty

23:40

kind of well equipped and doing

23:42

something about their issues , and so

23:44

what you have to listen out for is actually

23:46

what we call like change talk

23:49

conversations , and

23:52

the motivation that people express

23:54

and their commitment to change can

23:56

really be heard in

23:58

what they say , and this just

24:01

doesn't apply to mental health . This can

24:03

apply to any manager

24:05

managing

24:07

a team , and what I

24:09

would say was really listen out for

24:11

those kinds of change

24:14

talk statements

24:16

, because people that are contemplating

24:20

or thinking about change will have

24:23

a desire and a reason and

24:25

a need to do something and they will be expressing

24:27

that in the way that they

24:31

talk and they'll be taking action

24:33

or thinking about taking action . So they'll be

24:36

talking about their commitment and activation

24:38

to change . But

24:40

those that aren't aware

24:42

, I think we

24:44

have to be much more proactive and that's why

24:46

I think it's really important to have preventative

24:49

mental health , that you

24:51

, just as a norm , you

24:54

have certain things on the agenda

24:56

, so it could be that one

24:58

month you're talking about sleep hygiene

25:00

, another month you could be

25:02

talking about fitness , another month

25:04

about stress and actually

25:07

being proactively , bringing

25:09

up these conversations and asking

25:11

people how they're feeling

25:13

, what's going on for them , and

25:15

really kind of listening to

25:18

what they're saying back . So I

25:21

think it's really important to be able to

25:23

listen and I think we'll get into some of the listening

25:25

stuff in a bit but

25:28

to be able to listen to what

25:30

people are saying , to kind of cue where

25:32

they are in terms

25:35

of what's going on for them , because you don't

25:37

have that daily contact

25:39

and you don't have those opportunistic

25:41

chats . You know in front of the water

25:43

fountain or in the kitchen making a coffee

25:46

, or you know when you're passing in the corridor

25:48

. So it's been much more intentional

25:51

about those check-ins

25:53

and how you use

25:55

them .

25:56

And in terms of those check-ins , I think , especially

25:59

now where we've just like forced to

26:02

be on , you

26:04

know Zoom all the time

26:06

. I say we're forced , but more

26:09

and more people , who perhaps aren't used to these

26:11

kinds of video conversations

26:13

, are becoming , like you mentioned , having

26:16

the fatigue as a result of these conversations

26:18

. How do we then make

26:20

sure we strike a balance between , you

26:22

know , having these change-tort conversations , so that

26:24

the person on

26:27

the other end of the line doesn't then

26:29

experience that sort of scenario

26:31

?

26:33

Yeah , I really encourage you to up-up-scale

26:36

as a manager and I think that I

26:39

think kind of like facing and

26:43

having these types

26:45

of conversations is going to be part of

26:47

kind of your day-to-day conversations

26:50

. I don't think you necessarily

26:52

have to plan

26:55

a special meeting around this . It can

26:57

be just in what you do day-to-day . And

27:00

I do think one of the competencies of

27:02

leaders , of managers going

27:04

forward , is going to be able to

27:06

support and build the emotional

27:08

resilience of themselves and their teams

27:11

, because they're going to need

27:13

it to be productive

27:15

. Have healthy , resilient teams and

27:18

teams that feel comfortable , or individuals

27:20

that feel comfortable to kind of hold their hand

27:22

up and say I'm really struggling

27:24

today or I'm struggling this week , and

27:27

to have those kind of very open

27:30

and transparent conversations . And

27:32

we can only start to have those open

27:34

and transparent conversations if

27:37

we have leaders who are going to

27:39

acknowledge that and

27:42

open up those kinds of conversations . And some

27:44

people won't want to talk about it , and that's

27:46

fine . And I'm not saying that

27:48

you have to force it

27:50

, absolutely not . But

27:52

I do think it's giving people

27:54

opportunity . I like that saying that you

27:57

can lead a horse to water , but

27:59

you can't make them drink , but you can make

28:01

them thirsty and that's

28:03

our job . Our job as leaders , as

28:05

managers , is to make people

28:07

thirsty . So if

28:09

they decide to take you up on it

28:12

, that's great . If they don't , they know

28:15

that that boundary is there . So

28:17

it's all about how we position

28:19

this and how we integrate

28:21

and embed it as part of our everyday conversations

28:24

.

28:25

So yeah , so what you're saying , it's an ongoing thing that

28:28

doesn't necessarily have to be a

28:30

structured thing . It's something that a manager should

28:32

have as part of their skillset , or at least develop

28:34

as part of their skillset , so that they can build

28:37

that resilience their own

28:40

personal resilience as well as their own team's resilience

28:44

as well . And where

28:46

that resilience is concerned , I mean , what's

28:48

I'm trying to think of the sorts of things that I do to build my own

28:51

resilience . I don't know if I do

28:53

those things consciously or not , but

28:55

are there any sort of specific

28:58

things at all , or am I overthinking this

29:00

now ?

29:01

To build your own resilience .

29:02

Yeah , or my team for that matter .

29:06

Yeah , I think that mental

29:09

fitness , if you like , is

29:12

centered around kind of probably

29:15

five key things , like your stress

29:17

level and being aware of kind of where

29:19

that is You're nutrition

29:23

. Are you eating the right food ? Because

29:25

our food impacts our moods , that's

29:27

the reality of

29:29

it . Are we sleeping enough ? Because sleep

29:32

has

29:34

a huge impact on our resilience

29:36

? And then what I would

29:38

call within the nutrition

29:41

is fitness as well exercise and movement

29:43

. I'm not talking about going to join

29:46

a crossfit gym and be like hardcore

29:49

. Even just getting out for a walk outside

29:51

in the fresh air , that impacts our sleep

29:53

, that impacts our fitness

29:55

. You know , are we moving enough ? Because I think

29:57

that's another thing about remote working . I

29:59

mean , sometimes I'll look at my step

30:02

count and I'd be like , oh my God , I've been like literally

30:04

sitting at my desk all day . I haven't moved

30:06

, and you know proactively going

30:08

out for a walk or even going

30:10

out in the garden . I mean we

30:12

were having a conversation earlier about having a stand

30:15

up desk and you know , standing

30:17

for some of the day or walking around

30:19

a room when we're talking , that we don't have

30:21

to be sat down at a

30:23

desk . And the last thing I would

30:25

say on mental fitness is around community

30:28

and connection and really building . You

30:30

know deep connections with

30:33

other people , so building

30:35

those relationships .

30:36

No , that's brilliant and I think it's

30:39

important , isn't it

30:41

? Because mental fitness

30:43

, I suppose , as you put , it , is not just about , like

30:46

you said , just what's in your mind , but it's about getting

30:48

all those physical , get your body physiologically

30:51

right as well , isn't it ? As well as the , you

30:53

know , the other things that we mentioned before , all that you mentioned

30:55

before , and this thing you mentioned

30:58

as well , about

31:00

again a technique

31:02

that manages you , is it around reflective

31:05

listening ? You said something .

31:07

Yeah , I think one of the

31:09

things that I wanted to talk

31:11

to your

31:13

listeners today about was around

31:15

motivational interviewing . So

31:18

in our we

31:20

run a half day workshop on this

31:22

and it's condensed down

31:24

into some of the things that I've been talking to

31:26

you about today are part of our mental health awareness

31:29

training , which I believe

31:31

that you will post at the end of the

31:33

show . So , yes , access to that

31:35

if they're more interested in these things

31:38

. And we run like a monthly coaching

31:41

group , so people that want to

31:43

learn more about these different mental fitness

31:45

areas you know we teach

31:47

each month on a

31:50

specific topic and not so

31:52

people can , you know , make these huge lifestyle

31:55

changes . Like I said , it's not about going to join

31:58

the CrossFit gym and be training like five

32:00

times a week and , you know , like

32:02

making sure you've got all your

32:04

meals prepped and having five meals a day .

32:06

We're not you know that's like .

32:07

You know there's nothing wrong with that , but that's for

32:09

a certain group of people . What

32:12

we teach and what we think about is how you

32:14

can make this part of what you do

32:16

and embed it into your kind of everyday

32:19

lifestyle exactly

32:21

. So these advanced technique

32:23

listening techniques and motivational interviewing

32:26

again , it's about

32:28

having an awareness

32:30

of this technique and embedding

32:32

it into your routine

32:35

. And I think the point of these

32:38

advanced listening techniques is around

32:40

having a collaborative conversation actually

32:42

and strengthening people's intrinsic

32:45

motivation and commitment . So

32:47

what motivates you

32:49

inside and really as a leader , as a

32:52

manager , as an individual , if you can

32:54

tap into you know what

32:56

motivates you intrinsically

32:59

inside , you know it's much

33:01

easier to have better

33:03

conversations with people and

33:06

much more smoother

33:09

collaborations in terms of getting

33:11

things done and getting the best

33:13

out of people . And

33:16

the spirit of motivational interviewing is

33:18

really about , you know , really like

33:20

the idea that you're not the expert

33:22

and that actually is a collaboration

33:24

. So you know it's trying to get

33:26

a mutual understanding

33:29

and just understanding that person

33:31

from their narrative and what they need

33:33

, as opposed to your own kind

33:35

of agenda . Because I think as managers

33:37

I mean I've managed large

33:40

teams before and much

33:42

smaller teams and I've managed teams from

33:45

a as a line

33:47

manager , but also in a way where you

33:49

have to influence people that you don't necessarily

33:52

have their , you're not their direct

33:54

line manager and it's so important

33:57

to understand you know what's important

33:59

to them , because actually it helps you to frame

34:01

. You know what your , what

34:04

it is that you're get wanting them

34:06

or asking them to do , if you can

34:08

frame it from their narrative and

34:10

not your own narrative . And

34:12

so there's something about drawing out

34:15

from that person , as opposed to imposing

34:17

your views on

34:20

them , and really understanding you

34:22

know what , what , what

34:24

, what , what is it ? What is the change

34:26

that's needed to happen here ? What you

34:28

know , what is it that you are trying to achieve

34:31

through this conversation

34:33

with that person , and really

34:35

like getting them to think

34:38

about it from an autonomous perspective and

34:40

not your authority . So

34:42

I think you know , if you are

34:45

remote working and

34:47

you are influencing

34:50

and working with , especially if you're

34:52

working with more senior teams who

34:55

you know have a lot more autonomy

34:57

, this is a really helpful technique

35:00

to start to have some of those change or

35:02

even complex conversations that

35:04

often we like to skirt around

35:06

or not quite address , and I think

35:09

mental health is one of those , because people

35:11

always are worried about saying

35:13

the wrong thing and

35:15

that they're going to , you know , put their foot in it

35:17

and offend your upset people

35:19

. So I think it's quite a delicate

35:21

conversation , but I'm just going

35:23

to give you four basic skills

35:26

that you can use and that is called OARS

35:29

, o-a-r-s , and

35:32

that really OARS consists of

35:34

open-ended questions , affirmations

35:38

so appreciating people

35:41

and coming

35:43

from an encouraging perspective

35:45

. Reflective listening so being

35:47

able to paraphrase and rephrase

35:49

what people have said

35:51

. And then summarizing , just to make sure

35:54

that you understand what

35:56

people are saying . And if you can fit

35:58

O's into conversations

36:01

, you will find you have much

36:03

more productive and better

36:05

conversations when it comes

36:07

to any kind of conversation , not just mental

36:09

health , but any kind of conversation

36:12

, because it helps people to feel heard

36:14

and that you're actually really listening

36:16

to them , and it's one of the ways that

36:18

you can have a very empathetic and

36:21

connected conversation

36:23

.

36:24

Could you get ? I mean , I don't know if it's possible in

36:26

this setting . Could you perhaps just like give

36:29

a little example , maybe , of how

36:31

a conversation might go ? I don't

36:33

know . Is it possible to do that now ? I don't know .

36:36

So between me and you , yeah , why

36:38

not yeah ? Okay , so

36:40

tell me

36:42

okay . So what's

36:45

the scenario then ? Maybe talk to me about

36:47

something that's you're

36:50

struggling with at the moment a challenge .

36:52

So , yeah , my kids , I'm

36:55

working from home and I'm

36:57

also my kids' teacher , so I'm trying to balance

36:59

my work with my

37:02

home schooling basically

37:04

.

37:04

Okay , so how are you managing that now then

37:06

?

37:08

It did start off a little bit tricky , because

37:10

I wasn't really sure

37:12

if I was doing the right thing where my teaching

37:15

was concerned , and then it kind

37:17

of sort of filtered into my work , so

37:19

I was losing time with my

37:21

daily work .

37:23

So how would you like that to be different

37:25

? What's the balance

37:28

that you're seeking ?

37:30

Well , apart from going back to school , I suppose

37:32

I want to be

37:34

able to , I suppose , understand

37:36

that my kids are getting everything that they need

37:39

out of the day , but at the same time being

37:41

as productive as I possibly can under the

37:43

circumstances .

37:45

I mean what's productive for

37:48

you . What would that look like ?

37:50

I suppose what I normally

37:52

do is just have like a checklist of things that I

37:54

need to get done in the day , and I suppose

37:56

a couple of weeks ago I wasn't really getting those things

37:58

done , so I suppose now it

38:00

is improving . So productivity

38:02

for me is like crossing those things off the list and

38:05

getting them done .

38:06

So it sounds like you're doing a good job then

38:08

, like you are getting some things

38:11

done , but there's room for improvement .

38:13

Yeah , that's how

38:16

I'd sum it up as well . I'm much better

38:18

now when it comes to condensing

38:20

their learning into , say , like three

38:23

hours , where it used to be six hours , or

38:25

like four to six hours . I'm condensing it down

38:28

now , so I'm now sort of striking

38:30

a nice balance between the work

38:32

and the actual school

38:34

work for them . So it is getting better , yeah .

38:37

And are they enjoying it more ? Do they feel

38:39

more ?

38:41

Yeah , enjoying it . In inverted commas yes

38:43

, they're enjoying it . They're getting it done . Yeah

38:45

, it's much better now . It's less

38:48

stressful , because it used to be quite stressful

38:50

and then that stress would filter out into

38:52

them and then they wouldn't want to do the work . So

38:54

it's now becoming a bit more sort of

38:56

cooperative , should we say

38:58

. And they're enjoying it's a bit more trying

39:01

to inject a bit of fun into it too .

39:04

So it sounds like it sounds like you are

39:06

actually managing this much

39:09

better and that you do have strategies

39:11

in place Perhaps it's worth thinking

39:13

about . Maybe they're not perfect

39:15

and that they're perhaps got

39:18

room to . You've got room

39:21

to improve and grow , but

39:23

you sound like you're trying new things

39:26

and seeing how that works

39:28

.

39:28

Yeah , and I am trying new

39:30

things . I'm always , I suppose I suppose

39:33

you have to , especially I've got a six year old , so

39:35

if I suppose if I was doing the same

39:37

thing every day , she'd really quickly

39:39

get quite bored . So yeah

39:42

, I'll keep trying new things , just to see what works

39:44

, I guess . And then , like I said

39:46

, the work is improving , so it's

39:48

becoming less of a worry now .

39:53

I think it's when we try new things

39:55

that we have to often

39:57

cut ourselves a bit of slack in terms

40:00

of that process of

40:02

transitioning into the new

40:04

way of doing

40:06

things , but I think that

40:09

you have a framework

40:12

in place that's

40:14

serving you well . It's not a perfect one

40:17

. It seems that you are

40:19

much more productive , and your children

40:21

are getting homeschooled

40:23

. I guess I wonder what your idea of

40:25

productive is

40:27

, though , for them , because I think that some

40:30

parents perhaps

40:32

are considering that they need to kind of give

40:34

them the level of teaching that they

40:37

had when they were at school , and actually

40:39

maybe the standard is being good enough

40:41

. I don't know .

40:44

Yeah , and I've come to realize that I suppose

40:46

at the beginning again on reflection

40:49

I used to want to try

40:52

as hard as possible to follow the same

40:54

sort of routine that they

40:56

would at school , but I've come to

40:58

learn that , like you said , it's

41:01

about them , I suppose

41:03

, enjoying it . So it is getting to that point

41:05

now where they're starting to enjoy it a bit more

41:07

and it's not as intense as it was

41:09

before , and I

41:11

think

41:14

the outcomes

41:16

for them really is just that enjoyment

41:18

, I guess . So , yeah , it is getting better .

41:21

Have we demonstrated ?

41:23

Yeah , I think that's pretty good . It

41:25

is because I think that anybody

41:31

who's listening to this I hope will any

41:34

manager listening to this will be able to hear

41:36

how you are just sort of giving

41:39

me the platform to say

41:41

what I've been doing , how I've been

41:43

doing it and , at the same time , suggesting

41:46

things , rather than trying to impose things on me . I

41:50

think that was pretty useful

41:52

for me , let alone , hopefully , anybody out

41:54

there listening . So , thank you .

41:56

I think I started using some of the more

41:58

advanced techniques in

42:01

that , in terms of I

42:05

was consciously developing the discrepancy

42:07

, which is a technique of

42:10

motivational interviewing , because

42:12

I think where you started was

42:14

that you were basically failing

42:16

as a parent from

42:18

a productivity perspective . Actually

42:21

, you then went on to

42:23

say well , actually I've been trying different things and

42:26

it's been getting better over the weeks

42:28

and it's not perfect , but

42:31

it is improving . And I think sometimes

42:33

when we're going on a longer change journey

42:36

, we're so focused

42:38

on the end result that we don't see

42:40

all the incremental progress that we make

42:42

. And sometimes it's really

42:45

good to kind of sound that out and

42:47

to be able to express empathy to

42:49

someone and really kind of go actually you are

42:51

doing really well , you have implemented a

42:53

lot of things . Where is

42:55

it that you're expecting to be ? Because

42:57

I think sometimes people's expectations and

43:00

where they actually are is very

43:02

different , and so it's

43:05

been able to celebrate that

43:07

person's small incremental

43:10

steps and encourage

43:12

them to carry on and

43:14

see that actually

43:16

it's not as terrible as they

43:18

think in their mind

43:21

.

43:22

So true because even a couple of weeks ago

43:24

, what I'd say is what I was

43:26

thinking about was , rather

43:28

than incremental steps , I was thinking about how are they going

43:30

to be when they go back to school because of all this

43:33

teaching I've been doing with them , not

43:35

how I've been doing step by step

43:37

, but it was like so yeah , that is so true

43:39

and good

43:41

, it's great , it's great . So , if anybody's listening

43:43

to this , I think well , I'm

43:46

sure people are listening to this then it's

43:48

about the little steps

43:50

in between that lead you to what

43:53

the end result is , rather than just sort

43:55

of putting all that pressure on yourself just to

43:58

get that end result , rather than just sort of focusing

44:00

on the steps in between . So no

44:03

, martika , thank you .

44:04

Done is better than perfect . I think that

44:06

we often strive for

44:08

the finished product or the perfection

44:11

, and actually

44:13

it's a process , isn't it ? And we

44:15

have to be okay with being good enough , and

44:17

sometimes being good enough is the best

44:19

. So , yeah

44:22

, well done for being , for

44:26

having a full time job and teaching

44:28

.

44:28

Oh my gosh , it hasn't been easy

44:30

.

44:30

Everyone's going to have a new appreciation of teachers

44:33

.

44:33

I think , Tell me about it , Tell me about it . So

44:35

I mean just to end up , what's

44:39

things looking like on the horizon

44:41

for benevolent health ? What are your plans

44:43

for the foreseeable

44:45

future ?

44:46

Mental health awareness weeks coming up

44:48

this month , 18th to the 24th

44:50

of May . We've got a mental fitness summit

44:53

. So we

44:55

have done a

44:57

load of . We've

45:00

had a load of conversations with different

45:02

people in different industries

45:04

around but , you know

45:06

, really building resilience . So we've been

45:08

looking at . Homeschooling was a big topic . We've

45:11

got some excellent resources in there and we

45:13

did some stuff with you on remote working

45:15

. We've got a load

45:17

of mental fitness talks in

45:20

there . It's totally free to

45:23

register and to look at the content

45:25

If you want to keep the content as charged for

45:27

an access pass , which I mean it has a stress

45:30

program in there . So , and

45:32

that will go out on Mental

45:34

Health Awareness Week and I can say under the links

45:36

if people want to register before

45:38

then , and so we

45:41

are also . We've also

45:43

got the coaching program for people

45:45

that want to learn more

45:47

around mental

45:50

health awareness and building up their awareness

45:52

in the workplace , or that they want

45:54

to do something in their community in terms

45:56

of you know , if you're

45:58

into , if you've got expertise

46:01

in sleep or stress

46:04

or holistic , like

46:06

a yoga teacher , mindfulness

46:08

, or we're looking to

46:10

work with other

46:12

experts who

46:15

are interested in improving

46:17

their knowledge around mental

46:19

health . So we've been launching a peer mentoring

46:22

platform in June and

46:25

we always have our podcast , better

46:27

Mental Health , each month . We

46:29

usually focus on a topic

46:31

like this month we've been looking at sleep

46:33

Because I think that's been a big issue

46:36

for people through the pandemic , and

46:38

so we're always interested

46:40

in having those mental health conversations

46:43

. We just talk to everyday people and

46:47

really understand better

46:49

around mental health

46:51

. So that's the things that we've got coming up over

46:54

the next three few months . But if you I'll

46:58

send the slides that I've talked

47:00

from around the conversation

47:03

today and you register for

47:07

a free training , I

47:09

can add you

47:11

to our newsletter and then you'll get all

47:13

of the updates around stuff

47:16

that's going on month to

47:18

month within Benevolent Health .

47:20

So you're not busy , then Martika Not

47:22

busy , not ?

47:23

busy .

47:24

Not busy in the slightest .

47:26

I think mental health is really

47:29

needed at the moment . I mean , certainly

47:31

a lot of the reading that I've been doing around

47:33

this is that they're predicting kind of post-lockdown

47:37

sort of 69 months time

47:39

there'll be a

47:41

kind of a rocket in

47:44

mental health issues . So I think it's really

47:46

important to have good content , good support

47:48

, early . I think I

47:50

totally believe in prevention

47:52

. I've done this for years and

47:55

I mean I talked to you earlier about

47:57

suicide , which is obviously the really extreme

47:59

end of this , but where

48:02

we invest in good prevention programs

48:04

, the suicide rate is a lot lower . So

48:07

we know this stuff works . We

48:09

know if people have the skills

48:12

and the know-how before something happens

48:14

, that they actually navigate it much better

48:16

and much quicker . And

48:19

organisations are really missing a trick

48:21

If they've got people

48:24

off work sick long term

48:27

. If you can build

48:29

their emotional resilience , they will come back

48:31

to work much quicker and healthier . So

48:34

this stuff works . So

48:37

I think it's really important to

48:40

raise the awareness of it .

48:42

And that is certainly why I wanted to have you

48:44

on here today . I'm just looking for a benevolent

48:46

health website as well , so I'm going to put that in the show

48:48

notes too . But I wanted to

48:50

thank you , martika , for speaking

48:53

with us today , and we'll put a link , as I said

48:55

, in terms of the programs . We'll also

48:57

put a link to your website

49:00

as well in terms of mental health week , and

49:03

we'll be keeping an eye on what you're doing , absolutely

49:06

, I mean if anyone .

49:07

If this has touched anyone personally

49:09

and anybody struggling individually

49:12

and they've not been able to speak to

49:14

anyone , I'm really happy

49:17

to do a free consultation

49:19

and I will

49:21

give you a link to

49:24

my diary

49:26

for free consultations like 15

49:28

minutes just to talk about any

49:30

individual issues . If something's popped

49:33

up that we've talked about that really resonates

49:35

and impacts people , so I'm

49:38

more than happy to do that . Thank

49:40

you so much for having me on . I'm really feel

49:42

privileged to talk to your audience and I hope

49:45

that you've enjoyed it . I hope that this is

49:47

stuff that you're able to implement absolutely

49:50

and it makes a difference to you

49:52

and your teams . Most importantly .

49:54

I think that's what it's all about . So

49:57

it's benevolent health , benevolent health , dot

49:59

co dot , uk , martika sway

50:01

be thanks . So much , martika , thank

50:04

you , bye , bye .

50:05

Bye , bye .