0:01

Hey , it's Alex once again from the remote

0:04

work life podcast , and

0:06

I have with me for a second occasion

0:08

Laurel Farah . Laurel's

0:10

been on the podcast before . She's a remote work expert

0:13

, somebody who I've known about Gosh

0:16

for many years now . In fact , when

0:18

I first started to work remotely , Laurel's

0:21

one of the people that I wanted to approach

0:23

but didn't quite build the courage until I

0:25

started the podcast . So

0:27

Laurel's first time on the podcast was

0:29

talking about what she was doing

0:31

with Distribute at the time . Laurel

0:34

is now with GitLab . So

0:36

, Laurel , I just want to say thank you so much for joining

0:39

me on the podcast for a second time . You're very

0:41

welcome .

0:43

Oh , my word , I was excited to see your name in my inbox again . I'm always

0:45

happy to be here , nice . Thank you for the second invitation

0:48

.

0:49

No , it's a pleasure . It's a pleasure . Yeah

0:52

, I don't think a remote

0:55

podcast or a remote event , in

0:57

fact , would be the same without having

1:00

you on the roster . So that's why I had to have you back for

1:02

a second time , and I

1:04

just wanted to find out on this occasion

1:06

, because we only really talked about , we only glossed

1:12

over the surface of what you do

1:15

, what you're about . But

1:18

I thought this time around , we would find out a bit more about

1:20

you , how it all

1:22

began , where it all began and the why

1:24

behind Laurel Farrah

1:26

and everything like that . Yeah , let's dig

1:29

into it Sounds great , excellent

1:31

. Well , let's start then . So

1:33

tell us about you . I know a bit about

1:35

you , but tell the audience about yourself , laurel , yes

1:37

, of course .

1:38

So my name is Laurel Farrah , as

1:40

you so eloquently introduced , and

1:43

I am absolutely honored to be

1:45

one of the top remote work experts in the world

1:47

, which definitely was not a

1:49

thing a few years ago . But

1:51

here we are , and I absolutely love

1:54

what I do . It's an absolute dream

1:56

that I get to fill this role

1:58

on an international level for a

2:00

career . So what I do

2:02

is the same as many other

2:04

remote work experts and

2:07

influencers is that we primarily

2:09

advocate for the strength

2:12

and viability of remote

2:14

work as an option , and then each of us

2:16

have a bit of a niche in

2:18

which they encourage

2:21

that advocacy to turn into action

2:23

. And so some people specialize

2:25

in culture , some people specialize in recruiting

2:27

and talent acquisition . For me specifically

2:30

, I specialize in infrastructure

2:32

or business development and

2:35

organizational behavior . So what that

2:38

means is I help the

2:40

actual business , the

2:42

company , convert from

2:44

being a traditional co-located

2:47

format into a virtual format

2:49

. So I build the handbooks

2:51

, I audit the tools , I

2:54

build the policies , actually

2:56

help the company itself as an entity

2:58

make that transition . So I

3:01

did that previously as

3:03

the founder of Distribute , which is when you and I

3:05

originally connected , and that is still

3:07

the world's leading consulting firms specializing

3:09

exclusively in remote work . The

3:12

company lives on even though I'm not there anymore

3:14

. So that's , I think , the goal of every

3:16

founder . But now

3:18

I individually am , like you said

3:20

, at GitLab . So GitLab is

3:22

the world's largest fully distributed

3:24

company in the world and I'm helping

3:27

them convert their

3:29

knowledge and expertise into

3:32

a shareable format so that more

3:34

companies and more people can

3:36

learn to operate in at

3:39

high scale virtual first operations

3:41

better . So that's what

3:43

I do now and I'm kind

3:45

of a founder all over again . I'm building

3:48

this new startup called TeamOps within

3:51

GitLab and it's exciting

3:53

. I feel like I'm living that founder

3:55

dream all over again .

3:58

That sounds great and it's . Yeah

4:00

, I was excited to see that you'd move across to

4:02

GitLab as well and

4:04

, like you said , you're still very much

4:07

involved with Distribute as

4:09

well . But

4:12

I'm also intrigued because in

4:14

this series of podcasts , I've

4:16

been asking people like yourself

4:18

, experts like yourself , people

4:20

who are real advocates for remote

4:22

work , not just for the sake of it , but for

4:25

the benefit of

4:27

the people who work remotely . I'm

4:30

trying to dig a bit deeper in terms of how did that

4:32

all come about , how did that advocacy come

4:34

about , and why so

4:36

? I guess my next question is take

4:39

us through your you know , a part

4:42

of history , I guess , of your career

4:44

and where that I guess that transition came in

4:46

, or if you had a light bulb moment , or I don't know

4:48

, where did it all begin for you ?

4:50

Absolutely so . My story

4:52

starts 17 years ago

4:54

, which always makes me feel a bit old

4:57

saying that , but

4:59

here we are , which means

5:01

that I have great experience , right . So

5:04

, we'll play that angle . It's experience

5:06

, wisdom , this

5:09

is what I say . Yeah , thank you . Thank

5:11

you , Good answer , alex

5:13

. So , yeah , I was an

5:16

office manager for a

5:19

hybrid team 17

5:21

years ago , which I had no

5:24

idea that it was a hybrid

5:26

team . Right , because it wasn't a thing

5:28

hybrid thing . What hybrid teams were

5:31

? Not a thing , it wouldn't be language that we would

5:33

use until 15 years later . So

5:35

but it was . We happened

5:38

to be changing locations of our

5:40

office , and the new office wasn't

5:42

ready yet , and so we had to move

5:45

into a temporary workplace

5:47

which was much , much smaller than

5:49

the one that we had been in and the one that

5:51

we would be going to , and so we

5:54

only had a few desks

5:56

and workspaces available for the staff

5:59

and now

6:01

this all sounds very familiar . They were like , oh

6:03

, you were hot desking and you know like we

6:05

have words for it now . But then it was like

6:07

what are we going to do

6:10

? Okay , let's figure this out . Like some of us

6:12

can work in the office sometimes

6:14

, the rest of us can work from home or from

6:16

client sites , and

6:18

we'll just make it work for a few months . So

6:21

that was my first experience with

6:23

hybrid workplace location

6:26

, and that's when I saw , as the

6:28

office manager , how much it was impacting

6:30

our team in positive ways . We

6:32

were all able to stay perfectly

6:35

productive , and even

6:37

more productive sometimes

6:39

, and we were able to have a really interesting

6:42

dynamic of what value

6:44

the workplace provided

6:46

and didn't provide , and so that really

6:49

was the point that opened my

6:51

mind to maybe

6:53

work doesn't have to be a place . And

6:57

so it was in my next role

7:00

that I was the operations manager

7:02

for another company

7:04

, and we were kind of in

7:06

a similar position that we very

7:08

temporarily needed to save

7:10

money . We were planning on moving into the

7:13

next big workplace because we were scaling

7:15

as a team and that

7:17

office wasn't gonna be ready yet , and so

7:20

we were , but our lease was up in our

7:22

current place . So we were thinking , oh

7:24

, what do we do ? What do we do ? And

7:26

we were a small team , we

7:28

were a scaling , lean , and

7:30

so I was like you know , we

7:34

did this thing in my last company

7:36

and it worked really well . I

7:39

feel very confident asking

7:41

my team to do this again . So the

7:43

CEO had actually had a

7:45

similar idea . So we validated each other

7:47

and we said , yeah , let's

7:50

just ask everybody to work from

7:52

home for just the summer , until the

7:54

lease is ready on the new place , and

7:56

then and that'll help us save

7:58

money we won't have to get into

8:01

any additional debt and this

8:03

. I think this could work . So

8:06

it was a risk , but we tried it and

8:08

at the end of three months , everybody

8:11

loved it so much that we extended another

8:13

three months and , long story short , nobody

8:15

ever went back into the office . We , as

8:18

the operations manager . I saw

8:20

that our retention was so high

8:22

, our attraction was so

8:24

high for our talent and our

8:26

profitability was so high

8:29

as a company that I couldn't

8:31

say no to it . I saw that this was the

8:33

absolute key to us

8:35

running with like

8:38

60% more profitability

8:40

than we were before . So we

8:43

were just like let's ride this wave as

8:45

long as we could , and they never

8:47

went back . So that

8:49

became essentially my kind

8:52

of superpower , my arsenal

8:55

, my niche for companies that

8:57

I would go to as an operations manager

8:59

after that or as an operations consultant

9:01

is I would always

9:03

be called in to increase that profitability

9:05

and to optimize those metrics as much as

9:07

possible . And I said I

9:10

know one really good way to

9:12

do that and let's all embrace

9:14

remote work . And in small businesses

9:17

and startups every penny counts

9:19

and that was a huge

9:21

value that I brought to every operation that I worked

9:24

with . So that's how I got started

9:26

was just based on the numbers , based

9:28

on business management , saying

9:30

I see that this is positively impacting

9:32

every single metric that

9:34

we are trying to improve . It's

9:37

a no-brainer .

9:39

And then from

9:42

that , I guess that's , like you said , the genesis

9:44

of you becoming

9:46

a consultant in

9:48

remote work . Or

9:50

was it that you were going into

9:52

businesses that weren't

9:55

necessarily , didn't necessarily

9:57

have that mindset

9:59

, and you were going in to

10:02

help them to save money , so you were pitching those

10:04

sorts of ideas . Was it like that ?

10:07

It was a little bit of both . It was mostly

10:09

by nature of just questions

10:11

that I started consulting Because

10:14

remember this was 17 years

10:16

ago remote work was not a term yet , Workplace

10:19

flexibility was kind of a term

10:21

, Telecommuting was kind of a term , but

10:24

certainly not common in certain

10:26

industries and in first small businesses

10:28

. And so it usually

10:31

just evolved by

10:33

nature of just telling people what

10:35

I did professionally and somehow

10:38

it would slip that we didn't have any offices

10:40

. And then that was usually

10:43

the lead generation for becoming a consultant

10:45

, because they would say , wait what

10:48

? You don't have any

10:50

offices , how does that even work

10:52

? And then I would answer questions and

10:54

then I would tell them about how much profitability

10:57

it had impacted our

10:59

organization and

11:01

then they would say can you come do the same thing for my company

11:04

? And that was it .

11:05

Wow , 17 years . I mean

11:07

, I only go back as far as 2008

11:11

. And again , I tell the story at

11:13

every single podcast . Literally , I

11:16

was the point where I was working remotely . I didn't

11:18

tell anybody that I was working remotely because

11:21

they were like they look at me in a funny

11:23

way .

11:24

Yes , that's what people don't understand , right

11:26

? They were like oh , you must have been such a proud

11:28

pioneer . And I was like are you kidding

11:30

? We never told , we

11:33

never breathed a word to anybody

11:35

, especially as small business

11:37

, as startup . If you said that you didn't

11:39

have a storefront

11:41

of some kind or physical footprint

11:43

, you were not taken seriously

11:45

. So it was not something loud

11:48

and proud like it is now . We kept it

11:50

a secret .

11:52

Yeah .

11:53

Like I mean deep , deep

11:56

secret . We did not tell anybody

11:58

that we did not have a storefront

12:00

. So , yeah , I love that you have the same experience

12:02

. That it was like no , this wasn't like cool

12:05

pom-poms , like yeah , I'm a remote worker

12:07

. It was like I swear

12:09

I'm still a professional . Okay

12:12

, like you were just constantly trying to

12:14

convince people that you were still credible .

12:16

This is it , and I think

12:18

because I obviously you know , you

12:21

mentioned the different verticals

12:24

that people work in , where remote workers concern

12:26

and recruitment was one of the areas that

12:28

I first had my experience

12:31

of working remotely . No-transcript

12:33

. I at the time was was trying

12:36

to interact with , you know , really

12:38

serious businesses , and I was thinking to

12:40

myself how am I gonna do this in such

12:42

a way that will have

12:45

me allowing me that credibility but , at the same time

12:47

, working a way that I think is the most

12:50

efficient ? And yeah , it was . It

12:52

was quite painful because there's , you know

12:54

, again , I was using I

12:56

think I was using Skype back then as well . Skype

12:58

was the was the . Yeah

13:01

yeah , yeah , and I

13:03

always do any that question . So where

13:05

are you based , Alex ? And I'd be like

13:07

, well , I work

13:10

remotely . That's

13:12

where the conversation was like oh yeah

13:14

.

13:15

I'm not a part right to have those interviews

13:17

that you would . Yeah , you

13:19

would either have Skype or you would be on

13:21

the phone and you

13:24

would have those interviews of they . Well

13:27

, I don't want to speak for you , but for me . They would see my

13:29

resume and we

13:31

would have some phone conversation

13:33

about who I was and what I did

13:36

and they would be so excited Because

13:39

I I'm proud of my accomplishments , I'm good

13:41

at what I do and I'm I'm not too proud to

13:43

say like , yeah , like I'm an impressive person

13:45

on paper , and so they would

13:47

get so excited about it . And then

13:49

that would slip , that

13:52

I had been working from home and they

13:54

would go , oh , and

13:56

then it was like the whole interview was over and

13:58

I was like , does this not mean that I have

14:00

Still done all of these

14:03

things ? Like I just happened to be sitting

14:05

in a different seat when

14:07

I accomplished all of these results . That's

14:10

the only difference . And it was

14:12

hard to not be taken

14:14

seriously as a professional for many

14:16

years because of where I worked .

14:18

Yeah , it was . I agree that . Yeah

14:20

, completely agreed what you , what you're saying there with

14:22

with guys , my CV and everything , and

14:26

for you then , laura , was that again

14:29

I don't know assume anything but your

14:31

advocacy behind remote work and establishing

14:34

Distribute

14:36

as a consultancy . Was

14:39

that the driving force for you or was there

14:42

something else ?

14:43

It was so many things . Honestly , it

14:46

was professionally . Yes , it

14:48

started with . This is a great

14:51

way for businesses to grow and

14:53

scale in a lean way , in

14:55

a way that it's positive to both

14:57

local and greater economy

14:59

. So that was , that

15:02

was the beginning of it . But

15:04

then , the deeper that I got into it , the

15:06

more that I saw how much it

15:08

impacted my life and the life

15:10

of my co-workers , and the life of my

15:14

community and the life

15:16

of my friends and family . And

15:18

so Now , especially

15:20

, having done this for so long , I've had the

15:22

amazing privilege to meet

15:24

thousands of people all over

15:26

the world that have told me their story about

15:30

how much the ability

15:32

to work remotely has impacted them as

15:34

a single parent , or as somebody with a disability

15:36

, or as a business manager

15:39

, or as a minority , or

15:41

or or or . I've just heard so

15:44

many stories that Now it's

15:46

just so deeply ingrained

15:48

into who I am that I

15:51

can never turn my back on this . I can

15:53

never turn my back on those people , because it

15:55

is our responsibility to advocate for

15:58

greater diversity and inclusion

16:00

in Business

16:02

and greater opportunity for more

16:04

people and for more businesses . I

16:07

think it truly is the great equalizer

16:09

, and so I think it is Incredibly

16:14

. How

16:21

are we of us like I'm trying

16:23

to be diplomatic here , but I'm like okay

16:25

. It's cowardly of us to turn

16:27

our back on remote work . Yeah

16:29

.

16:32

And I kind of I know I shouldn't , probably

16:34

Someone's soul should be quite a lot

16:36

, and I love I watched a lot of the sort

16:39

of Stuff that comes through my my

16:41

news feed and other news feeds and under in

16:43

the general media . And there's still

16:45

, you know , those people who journalists

16:48

, who are still , you

16:50

know , on the back of remote work

16:52

and still I mean I don't if

16:54

it's genuine , but they're doubting the benefits

16:57

of remote work and I know that it doesn't

16:59

suit everybody who might work , doesn't ? It's

17:01

not for everyone , but

17:03

for all the reasons that you mentioned before , that , that

17:06

for me , I mean parenting . That was

17:08

my biggest thing . I

17:13

think there's been such a massive gap in my career

17:15

had I not had the ability to

17:17

work remotely , whilst

17:20

looking after my daughter , for example

17:22

. And it makes me really wonder why

17:25

there's so many detractors or

17:27

people putting things out there that

17:29

potentially could harm , I

17:32

suppose , what is a movement ? I guess you know it

17:34

really makes me wonder that . So

17:38

we need you . We need you to continue with

17:40

the advocacy , so please don't stop

17:42

. And anything I can do to help , anything we can do

17:44

to help , is yeah , absolutely

17:46

will You're spreading the word right here , right now

17:48

. Doing my best . I'm doing my best

17:50

, and for you

17:52

. How did you then

17:54

? Okay , so let's look a bit more

17:56

at distributed , how you established

17:59

that to be the force

18:01

it is now . How did that all pan

18:03

out ? How did that all come about ? You know

18:05

?

18:06

it was like so many

18:08

founding stories . It was a complete accident

18:10

. So I was

18:12

an independent consultant

18:15

, so I was just consulting on my own , independently

18:18

, and then I was

18:21

connected with the woman who

18:23

would become my COO

18:26

and then she would eventually become the CEO

18:29

when I left and her name is Sunny

18:31

Zimer and she is absolutely incredible

18:33

, has just as much experience as I

18:35

do and feels just as

18:37

passionately about remote work

18:39

as I do , and so she was

18:42

just networking and reached out and said

18:44

you know , I think I

18:47

see that you're talking about this and writing about this

18:49

. I have some experiences with this like

18:51

let's meet , let's connect . So it

18:53

was just a casual networking call in the beginning

18:55

, but she just

19:00

was a perfect match that we said this is

19:02

. We feel exactly the same way . Her

19:04

strengths were my weaknesses , my weaknesses were

19:06

her strengths , and so

19:09

we said , yeah , let's do this together

19:11

, let's try to actually turn this

19:13

into a thing that we can do together

19:15

. And so we did . We

19:17

collaborated together for a couple of years and

19:20

then it kind of there was the

19:22

next level of opportunity where there

19:24

was more consultants that were

19:26

also trying to be remote work consultants

19:29

. This is pre-pandemic , so there's very

19:31

little market , but we each

19:33

had a specialty , and

19:36

so we said , well , what if we combine

19:38

together and create

19:40

a consulting firm , each

19:43

with our individual , our

19:46

niches and our specialties , and we

19:48

can kind of provide a full service

19:50

consulting firm ? And

19:53

so we tried that out for almost

19:55

a year and it was exciting and

19:57

tumultuous and scary

19:59

. And we were right at

20:01

that level of is this going to work

20:04

, is this viable ? I don't know . And

20:06

that was right at the beginning of 2020 . And

20:09

so then March 2020

20:11

happened . Our leads increased by 6,000%

20:15

, and so it was just . There was no going

20:17

back . We just had to do

20:19

what we needed to do , and

20:21

that was really the solidification

20:23

of Distribute 6,000%

20:27

.

20:28

That's incredible . It was a very busy

20:30

time . And

20:33

now I'm guessing as well . I mean because there's

20:35

still so much more to do , because there

20:39

are there's still businesses

20:41

out there still trying to establish themselves as being

20:44

well , establishing their identity . There

20:47

are those that I guess , since the pandemic

20:49

, have decided yeah , this is what we're going

20:52

to do going

20:54

forward . So I'm guessing

20:56

those leads will only , I guess , continue

20:58

to come your way . But

21:02

what do you see ? I mean because

21:06

right now , the theme around remote work is

21:09

the news anyway

21:11

. The news cycle is all about come back

21:13

to the office , people

21:15

being told to come back to the office , and

21:18

that's the sort of general theme that's going around . What do you see

21:20

as the ? Do

21:25

you think that it's

21:27

going to continue to grow ? Or because

21:29

obviously , right now things are beginning to platter out , in some

21:31

cases dip a little bit ? How do

21:33

you see the future ?

21:36

How I see the future is with

21:39

a lot more intention

21:41

. Prior to the pandemic , we

21:43

, as a remote work advocacy

21:45

community , we

21:48

hoped and dreamed that

21:50

we would get to scale eventually

21:53

. We had all the intention , all

21:55

of the plans , no market . Now

21:58

it's been reversed that we have huge

22:01

market but no intention

22:03

and no plans , because everything has been so reactive

22:05

for the past few years . And so what

22:07

I see right now as a tipping

22:09

point for our industry is that

22:12

we have the chance

22:14

to design

22:16

the industry that we originally intended

22:19

to , but with the market to be able

22:21

to support it . So it really is the best . It

22:23

can be the best of both worlds . But

22:25

we have to be a lot more intentional and

22:27

, frankly , that's why I moved on from Distribute

22:30

to TeamOps , because I saw that

22:32

there was a gap in terms

22:34

of industry leadership as

22:38

a consultant and as

22:40

a consultancy . There was a

22:42

lot of subjectivity in our advice

22:45

that we would give to companies

22:47

. We would say this is a good idea because

22:49

we say so , but there's really no

22:52

industry standards , there's

22:54

very little industry research

22:56

, there's very little overarching

22:59

support or resources

23:01

for our entire

23:03

industry that binds

23:05

and unifies us together and gives

23:08

us more credibility , and so

23:10

I saw that all of us

23:12

as advocates , as tools

23:14

, as consultants , as constructors

23:17

we

23:21

needed more resources in order

23:23

to be able to move forward in

23:25

a unified and intentional direction

23:27

, and so that's why I

23:29

moved on to TeamOps was to

23:31

help build that , to help

23:33

build a space of

23:35

unification and a space

23:37

of intentionality and

23:41

industry leadership

23:43

, in order to create more

23:45

foundation for all of us to

23:47

build this industry together .

23:50

Yeah , that is certainly needed , like

23:52

you said , and I think that will only add to

23:54

the credibility , because there's so much information

23:57

going around and

24:00

I suppose data can be . Certain bits

24:02

of data , again used by the media

24:04

, can be used in any way that you want tell any kind of

24:06

story that you want . So we need , like

24:09

you said , your advocacy , and you've got GitLab

24:11

behind that as well , which is like one

24:14

of the forerunners where

24:17

distributed work is concerned . Tell me a bit

24:19

more about the work that you're doing , then . Loro

24:22

for GitLab , please .

24:23

Yeah , so I'm working on a program

24:25

called TeamOps , and what TeamOps

24:27

is is identifying and

24:30

defining and measuring

24:32

the standards , the universal

24:35

standards of virtual first

24:38

organizational development and

24:40

organizational behavior . So

24:42

what does it mean to

24:44

work remotely in a successful

24:47

way ? How do you know if you're

24:49

doing it in a good way or in a bad

24:51

way ? How do you know if you're

24:53

doing it in a way that is sustainable ? Ultimately

24:56

, answering that question for

24:58

all of those companies that you mentioned earlier that

25:00

are going back into the office why

25:03

isn't it working ? How do they know if

25:05

it's working ? How do they know what is

25:07

not working ? Those assessment

25:10

standards and metrics have not been

25:13

universally defined by anyone yet

25:15

, and that's the gap that I'm trying to

25:17

resolve . And

25:21

the content that I'm trying to develop

25:23

is how do we create that universal

25:26

measurement system for all

25:28

of us and use

25:31

that information to then inform all

25:33

of our various goals ? Whether we're trying

25:36

to build a tool

25:38

, or we're trying to be a change agent

25:40

within our organization , or we're trying

25:42

to consult somebody else , where

25:45

is that information that tells us what

25:47

we should be doing and what help somebody

25:50

needs ?

25:52

Wow , yeah , that sounds much needed .

25:55

I hope that's the goal .

25:57

Well , it sounds that way , it sounds like it's

25:59

needed and I mean , did you

26:01

imagine that you'd be in this situation ? I mean , obviously

26:03

not 17 years ago , but did you imagine even

26:06

your time , even

26:08

prior to distributed ? Did you imagine being here

26:11

, say , 10 years ago , doing this kind

26:13

of advocacy work ?

26:14

No , I mean months ago

26:16

. I couldn't have imagined this . Oh wow , oh

26:19

, I mean and that's an unusual

26:22

feeling for

26:24

me and for the other

26:27

remote work thought leaders that we all have become

26:29

so familiar with over time we're

26:32

all good friends . We've been in this fight for a long

26:34

time and we have very personal conversations

26:37

together as friends to say

26:39

what are we doing Like

26:42

? What does this mean ? Where do we go

26:44

from here ? I think , in the back of our minds

26:47

, none of us really thought that being

26:49

a remote work advocate was

26:51

permanent . There was never really that

26:54

enough of a market share to justify

26:56

doing this for a long time , or

26:58

at least to do it full time . We all just

27:00

you know , I wrote for Forbes

27:03

on the side and I was one of the very few

27:05

that did it full time , so it

27:07

was always kind of a phase

27:09

of our careers . And so now , when it is

27:11

full time and there's

27:14

an industry and surprise

27:16

, we're thought leaders , all of us are dealing

27:19

with a lot of whiplash to say what

27:21

do we do with this ? And

27:23

not only that , but where do we

27:25

go from here ? That's a very

27:28

vulnerable question . When you are building

27:30

an industry , there isn't

27:32

a growth path that exists . There's

27:35

not . You know , you go to college and

27:37

you get a degree in this , and

27:40

then you start in this job and

27:42

then you grow into this job that doesn't

27:44

exist . The jobs that people

27:46

are trying to grow into are the ones that

27:49

we created . The curriculum

27:51

that people are learning are the content

27:54

that we wrote , and it's so

27:57

. Whatever opportunities are next

27:59

in terms of our career development or

28:01

industry opportunities , those

28:04

are yet to be created by us

28:06

, and it's a very surreal

28:09

feeling . So , yeah

28:11

, as an

28:13

operations manager , you can imagine that

28:16

I'm a planner . I like to know

28:18

where I'm going , and so

28:20

to think of my career

28:23

future as a great big question mark

28:25

is . It's

28:27

an uncomfortable feeling , but it's also an exciting

28:30

feeling to know that I get to create what

28:32

that question mark is .

28:34

It seems as though you as well that you've you've

28:37

been able to navigate your career by creating

28:39

opportunities for yourself

28:42

Obviously value very valuable opportunities

28:44

and opportunities that

28:46

were perhaps before

28:50

their time . Almost in a way , you

28:52

know , you're looking back , like you said 17 years ago

28:55

, when you were advocating for remote

28:57

work . That's like years ahead of you're

28:59

thinking years ahead of everybody else , in

29:02

a sense , and that now is what you're required

29:04

to do , in a sense , in your current roles . You've

29:06

had those attributes . But how did you then

29:09

? Because I know some people , some people

29:11

actually I'm actually going off tangent slightly , but I'm intrigued

29:13

to know this question . But how

29:15

do you then navigate your ? You

29:19

know the conversations , the interviews on your

29:21

resume , when you're trying to move

29:24

from role to role , career to career

29:26

. How did you what's

29:29

the word sort of ? Convince

29:32

somebody

29:34

who you're sitting in front of that this

29:37

is the way forward , or I'm the person who

29:39

can help you to do this ? I don't know if you see

29:41

what I'm getting at .

29:42

Absolutely , you know . I think it's important to

29:44

realize that in hindsight

29:46

. The career

29:49

development path that I was on seems

29:51

very linear . It seems very simple

29:54

that I was going from one job to another

29:56

and the common thread was remote work

29:58

. But I can only look back

30:01

and see that very linear path

30:03

because remote work as a

30:05

term and as an industry exists

30:07

now . So , yeah , I can look back and see that

30:09

very straight line . At the time

30:12

it was not a straight

30:14

line . It was just as

30:16

confusing to me as anybody

30:19

else it was . There was many , many

30:21

times of star fishing on the floor

30:23

and thinking what am I doing with my life

30:26

? and my career you know

30:28

like , and many , many times being

30:31

my own critic and saying my

30:33

career is not credible

30:35

or valuable because I haven't

30:38

been working in an office . I would have

30:40

been so much farther ahead if

30:42

I had just done

30:44

the corporate ladder like everybody

30:46

else . So it's

30:49

not as simple as it seems in

30:51

hindsight . But at the time

30:53

how I did create

30:55

more

30:58

of a path for myself and start

31:00

to find that common thread is very

31:02

regularly thinking what

31:04

do I feel passionately about , what

31:07

am I really good at , what do I

31:09

want to do more of ? And that

31:11

just helped me tack from one

31:13

opportunity to another and eventually

31:15

come down into the funnel of identifying oh

31:18

, this is my niche , this is what I'm really

31:20

good at . So the

31:22

conversations at the time were really

31:25

good . Sales . To be honest

31:27

, it was like okay , this is what I

31:29

see you need for

31:31

your company and , based

31:33

on this previous experience

31:36

, I feel confident that

31:38

I could do that for you . So

31:41

just finding their pain point and drawing

31:43

on my very diverse experience

31:45

to find one little piece of it that would

31:48

prove to them that I could solve that pain point

31:50

for them . And that's

31:52

kind of the bittersweet

31:54

reality of being an operations manager

31:56

is that you're a jack of all trades , master

31:59

of none , so I was

32:01

really good at a lot of things , but

32:03

not exceptional at one thing

32:05

, and so I

32:07

was able to be a chameleon

32:10

, kind of in that way , of any

32:12

consulting opportunity or any

32:14

client or any job opportunity that popped

32:17

up . I could say I can do that for you , because I

32:19

happen to have some random experience

32:21

in the past of doing that . So , yeah

32:24

, a lot of convincing myself and

32:26

then trying to

32:28

fake it , enough

32:30

that I felt confident enough to be able to

32:32

convince somebody else as well .

32:35

And , by the way , I hope I wasn't necessarily

32:37

saying that you look like a simple

32:39

path , cause for me it doesn't look like

32:41

a straightforward path at all . It's

32:43

like you said you're

32:48

a problem solver , you're somebody who

32:50

solves problems , pain points , but

32:53

at the same time you're you're

32:55

trying to convince people of things

32:57

that perhaps they don't even not

33:00

even aware , sometimes that they

33:02

problems that they had , and

33:04

give them solutions that perhaps they weren't even

33:07

thinking about at the time as well

33:09

. So it's a combination of lots of

33:11

things coming together to the situation

33:13

that you're in now , and

33:15

that's with GitLab , which you

33:17

know . How are

33:19

things you ? I mean GitLab

33:21

is , like you said , the

33:24

biggest out there

33:26

. What's it like ? How has it been for you in

33:28

the last few months ?

33:29

Oh , it's been very exciting , it's . I

33:32

was a little nervous about going

33:34

back into corporate . I haven't worked

33:36

in corporate for even

33:39

you know since before I was working remotely

33:41

. So 18 years ago was the last

33:43

time I was working corporate

33:45

. So I was a little bit nervous about it , a little

33:47

bit excited , and . But

33:50

I've been advising and consulting corporations

33:53

for the past several years so I felt

33:55

pretty sure I knew what I was getting into and

33:58

it did not disappoint . Gitlab has

34:00

been a very exciting challenge

34:03

for me and it has been a really good

34:05

step for me

34:07

and my personal career development because , you

34:11

know , I was ready to be challenged

34:13

in new ways and receive new mentorship

34:16

and and solve new problems

34:19

, and that's exactly what I'm doing . So personally

34:22

, I've absolutely loved my time

34:24

so far at GitLab and then professionally

34:27

, it's been incredible to be able to

34:29

see these gaps in the industry and

34:31

be able to start building solutions

34:33

for them . I'm

34:36

very , very fulfilled and satisfied right

34:38

now .

34:39

All right , sounds good . And what are you excited

34:42

about then ? Because it's like he says , it sounds like you're

34:44

. You know where you need to

34:46

be and where you want to be right now . What

34:48

are you excited about when it comes ? I mean , some

34:51

of the work that you just described actually is exciting me , but

34:53

I want to know what's exciting , exciting you ?

34:56

It's that it's being able to

34:59

pay it forward . I

35:01

think so much of our work as

35:03

thought leaders and as pioneers in this

35:05

space is solving

35:07

problems for

35:10

other people that don't know that they're problems yet

35:12

, or building solutions so that somebody

35:14

else doesn't have to go through the same frustration

35:17

that I did . So it's all about

35:19

creating solutions

35:21

for people behind you , and so

35:24

that's exactly what I'm excited about is

35:26

I know the pain points of

35:28

building tools for remote work . I

35:30

know the pain points of consulting on

35:32

remote work or advocating for remote

35:34

work . I know all of those

35:37

firsthand , and so I'm

35:39

. I know that my peers and

35:41

and our successors

35:43

will have the same frustrations . So

35:45

what solutions can we build ? What documentation

35:48

can we build ? What resources can we

35:50

build now that will not only make it easier

35:52

for myself , but make it easier for

35:54

everybody around me and everybody

35:56

behind me , so that we can just gain

35:59

momentum as a community ?

36:02

Sounds good , sounds good , laurel , and

36:04

I was going to say thank you so much for

36:07

coming on to the podcast for a second

36:09

time . It's it's been a pleasure having you

36:11

and of course , I'll be keeping

36:13

track of what you're doing

36:15

as well , and I just wanted to wish you

36:18

get lab distribute all

36:20

the best going forward and , yeah , great

36:22

to see you again .

36:23

Thank you . Thank you so much for having me . It's been a

36:25

great conversation .