0:04

Welcome to repo's fight back a

0:07

podcast where we explore all things, reproductive,

0:09

health, rights, and justice. I'm

0:11

your host, Jenny wetter. And I'll

0:14

be helping you stay informed around issues like

0:16

birth control, abortion, sex,

0:18

education, and LGBTQ

0:20

issues, and much, much more giving

0:23

you the tools you need to take action

0:25

and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

0:30

Hi re pros . How's everybody doing? I'm

0:33

your host, Jenny , we , and my pronouns

0:35

are she her? So

0:38

y'all, there's been some exciting things

0:40

happening in the news recently around repro.

0:43

And I'm just really

0:45

excited to have things that are giving me energy

0:48

and giving me hope happening. You

0:50

know, as we always say, this is definitely a

0:52

marathon and not a sprint, maybe an ultra-marathon,

0:55

right? Like it's gonna be a very long, hard

0:57

fight. So having these little

0:59

things happen and they're not little right,

1:01

having these things happen to give

1:04

us hope are really important.

1:07

So last week president Biden issued

1:09

another executive order around abortion

1:11

care. Again, it doesn't go

1:14

far enough to meet the emergency we're

1:16

in, but it is definitely important steps forward.

1:19

I'm sure we will talk about the executive

1:21

order and what it means on another episode,

1:24

but just know it , it takes some

1:26

important steps, including trying

1:29

to find a way to support patients, traveling

1:31

out of state to access abortion

1:33

care. It's gonna be really interesting to

1:35

see how that is going to work out. So,

1:38

like I said, important steps, but still

1:40

not enough. I wanna focus

1:42

on the two big stories that were giving

1:45

me hope in the last , uh, two weeks.

1:48

So first is Kansas

1:51

y'all oh my goodness. Kansas

1:53

had a ballot initiative on

1:56

their primary ballot that

1:58

would seek to

2:00

remove protections for abortion

2:02

from their state constitution. Opponents

2:05

really did the best to

2:08

confuse what the votes meant. Tried

2:11

to make it seem like a yes vote

2:13

was in support of

2:15

reproductive choice when actually it was

2:17

eliminating it, even with

2:19

all of that and all of the money,

2:22

the Catholic church threw into it and

2:24

all of the other money, I'm sure that went into

2:26

it. There was huge

2:29

voter turnout and it was resoundingly

2:33

defeated. Y'all in Kansas. That

2:35

is so amazing to see

2:37

that people are energized and ready

2:40

to get out there and make sure that we are

2:42

protecting the right to abortion.

2:45

And y'all, it just gave

2:47

me so much joy and watching

2:50

the videos of the advocates,

2:52

celebrating the victory, they

2:55

worked so hard, so

2:57

many advocates and people going and

2:59

door knocking and doing the work on

3:02

the ground. They did so

3:04

much to make this happen. And it was,

3:06

it gave me so much joy to

3:08

see their joy. It was just really

3:11

wonderful to see. So thank

3:13

you all for your hard work. Thank you to

3:15

all of the people in Kansas who got

3:17

out to vote to ensure that

3:20

they were protecting the right to abortion. It

3:23

made a huge difference. And

3:25

then the last one that just,

3:28

it gave me so much hope y'all and I had

3:30

so much fun watching the numbers go

3:32

up and up and up. And that

3:35

was Olivia Juliana.

3:38

She is a 19 year old

3:41

advocate out of Texas who representative

3:43

Matt gates felt like was

3:46

a good idea to insult

3:49

and y'all don't mess with gen Z.

3:51

She turned it around and she

3:54

raised last. I saw over $2

3:58

million for abortion funds. Yo,

4:02

that is so much money. She

4:05

is just amazing. I , it

4:08

was just giving me so much joy. And

4:11

I think one of the things I saw that

4:13

really like $2 million is

4:15

a lot of money, but really put

4:17

that in perspective for

4:20

me, someone was

4:22

tweeting and I'm so sorry. I think

4:24

I am going to blank on who that

4:28

was. I think it was Lizza

4:31

Fuentes tweeted out about how

4:33

much money the national network of abortion

4:36

funds distributed in 2020

4:38

and in 2020, they distributed

4:44

$9.4 million . That means Olivia Juliana

4:47

raised almost 20%

4:49

of that. That is just

4:52

utterly astonishing and

4:54

is going to make such a huge

4:56

difference for abortion funds. It

4:59

is going to ensure that people are getting access

5:01

to the care they need. And honestly,

5:04

Olivia Juliana is just a

5:07

full, like absolute,

5:09

like not all heroes wear capes.

5:12

Like she is just amazing.

5:14

She took an attack on her personally

5:17

and raised over $2

5:20

million to make sure that people have access

5:22

to abortion funds and just,

5:26

oh, so much hope. And it was so

5:28

exciting to just continually watch

5:30

that number grow. I gave

5:33

money because how could you not? It

5:35

was just amazing.

5:38

And that was what I needed. That

5:40

was the energy I needed and the

5:42

hope I needed. And it was just so exciting

5:44

to see. And I

5:47

just, yeah, whew . It

5:49

was good to have good news. It

5:51

, it was really needed. Okay.

5:55

So with that, let's turn to this week's

5:57

episode. I am really excited for

5:59

this week's episode. I know things are

6:01

really confusing for a lot of people right now

6:04

on figuring out how to try and access care.

6:07

So I wanted to make sure that we talked

6:09

to some people who could help us figure out things

6:11

you need to think about along the way steps you

6:14

need to take, to protect yourself, to

6:16

make sure that you are getting the care you need and

6:18

you are protected from any sort of criminalization.

6:21

So I'm so excited to have with me

6:23

on today's episode, Liz

6:26

Lang with if one how and Rafa

6:29

goodbye with the rele defense fund,

6:32

we had a wonderful conversation and I

6:34

am really excited for you to hear my conversation

6:36

with Rafa and Liz. Hi

6:39

Rafa . Hi Liz. Thank you so much for being here

6:42

today . Do you wanna take a second before

6:44

we get started and introduce yourselves

6:47

and include your pronouns? Rafa , do you wanna go

6:49

first?

6:50

Hi. My name is Rafa goodbye . My

6:53

pronouns are them and I'm

6:55

the director of the rele defense fund. If

6:58

how it's really, really nice to be here . Thank you for

7:00

having me.

7:01

Thank you for being here

7:04

And I'm Liz I , she

7:06

pronouns and IM senior helpline

7:09

at if

7:11

Wonderful. I'm so excited to have

7:13

both of you here today . I think right

7:16

now there's probably a lot of confusion

7:18

with people and not knowing what

7:21

they need to do to access abortion

7:23

care or how to make sure they're protecting

7:25

themselves when accessing abortion

7:28

care so that they don't run afoul of

7:30

the new landscape. So maybe

7:32

we'll kind of walk through the process of

7:35

like how somebody needs to think about it

7:37

each step of the way. Maybe

7:39

let's start at the very beginning . So I

7:42

just found out I'm pregnant and

7:45

I am looking starting to look

7:48

for abortion care . What are things I

7:50

need to think about , like right away ?

7:54

This one first thing

7:59

is that abortion is actually

8:01

still legal in more than half

8:03

this country. And I think that's important

8:05

for people to keep in mind, of

8:08

course, and this is a big, but the fact

8:10

that people have legal rights doesn't

8:12

necessarily mean that they can get the care

8:14

that they need or want where they are . So

8:17

start with, you know, where am I in the country? And

8:20

I think two great resources that people can

8:22

look to are abortion finder

8:25

org . And I need just

8:28

to you , what type of care is

8:31

available , where I'm

8:32

Yeah , those are great resources . Is

8:36

there anything else I need to consider ?

8:40

I guess the only thing I was going to add is

8:42

just something to consider along the way,

8:44

regardless of timing is just to protect

8:46

your digital privacy as much as possible.

8:48

Be really cognizant of the things that you're searching

8:51

for. You know, we're well aware of people being criminalized

8:53

and having their data illegally

8:55

taken the way the cops are, you

8:57

know, desire to do and do all

9:00

the time and then using things

9:02

about searches for abortions or

9:04

information about abortions against them

9:06

. And so just be of how you're searching for

9:09

things . Yeah . Liz , I , if

9:11

you , so ,

9:14

Yeah . And I think along those lines, just

9:17

think about who you're sharing information with.

9:20

You know, we know that when it comes to

9:22

risk, the greatest risk is really from other

9:25

people, unfortunately. So really

9:27

keep your information, private share information

9:29

only when absolutely necessary, hopefully

9:32

with people that you really, really trust. And

9:35

I think the last thing I would say is that it

9:37

is a very confusing time right now. It

9:39

is very overwhelming and it's hard

9:41

to know what your rights are and

9:44

what the laws are quite frankly. And

9:46

so if you do have questions about

9:48

your rights or the laws in your state, please,

9:51

please, please call us at the rele

9:53

helpline. That is what we are here for. We

9:56

are here to help try to answer your questions, hopefully,

9:59

so people can, you know, make decisions

10:02

about their reproductive health that are based

10:04

in information and not in fear .

10:07

Yeah. That is such a great resource. We'll

10:09

make sure to include links to all the things and

10:11

the phone number for Thele helpline in

10:14

the show notes and link to it on

10:16

social, because yeah, it's really great to have

10:18

somewhere to turn to if you have questions

10:22

to just make sure you're covered.

10:25

I guess one of the other pieces that I would just

10:27

add is, as you're thinking about yourself as a

10:29

pregnant person, as you're thinking about the

10:31

medical care that you're accessing, I think it's

10:34

a sad truth that our medical providers

10:36

are not necessarily always on

10:39

our sides. Often there's a sculptural

10:41

idea, which is understandable, right?

10:43

I remember receiving this information, which was,

10:45

if you don't tell me all the things that are happening with your

10:47

body, I can't help you. You know, lawyers say this all

10:49

the time. If you don't tell me all the details

10:51

of , you know, if this case, then I won't be able to AR you

10:54

know, argue for you successfully. And

10:56

I think what's unfortunate is that the people that you

10:58

think you're giving that information to protect

11:00

you can in fact , be the people that report you , even

11:03

in the case of a miscarriage , we can about

11:06

bit more later , but just , I , some , the

11:09

fact always

11:11

need all your information

11:13

to , especially if it's not medically ,

11:17

That's so important, cuz I do. I

11:19

think a lot of people think of them as

11:21

like your lawyer. Like you wanna tell

11:23

them all the things so that you're covered. And

11:26

in this instance that's very much not the

11:28

case. Okay.

11:30

So I've gotten through that first hurdle. I

11:34

am ready to access care and

11:36

go to an appointment. What are like the next

11:38

bucket of things I need to start thinking

11:40

about?

11:41

Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of that depends on

11:44

who you are , right? Like what's going on

11:46

in your life. It's just a

11:48

, it can be a really stressful time.

11:50

It can be a really stressful situation. So

11:53

really thinking through , you know , where are you

11:55

going ? Do you have access to transportation

11:58

? Do you have someone , you

12:00

know , who you trust and be

12:03

to accompany you or who

12:05

might be able provide you support

12:08

afterwards ? Just thinking through , if

12:10

you have any questions about the procedure or

12:13

if you have any questions about what you might experience

12:16

asking the providers, those questions as well.

12:20

Yeah. And I think, I think a lot about survivors

12:22

of intimate partner violence at this time, also

12:24

in the course of their pregnancies, we know that people

12:27

are much more likely to experience harm

12:29

during this time, but also along the lines

12:31

of what Liz said earlier in terms of the people

12:33

around you. And, you know, I , I

12:35

don't mean to be in any way, victim blame me or

12:37

in any way to suggest that like people need

12:40

to make better decisions about the people they have around

12:42

them. Cuz that's a nonsense

12:45

and complicated thing to say to someone who's in an

12:47

abusive situation. Right. And at

12:49

the same time, I think this is another moment

12:51

of sad CS that the people around

12:53

you might be, your source of unsafe might

12:55

be the surveillance that we're all actually concerned

12:57

about. And I think intimate partners who

12:59

are, you know, abusive and their families or

13:02

any sort of networks that are abusive in your , in

13:04

your life could very well be the reasons that you're reported

13:06

or you are put in harms way

13:08

in terms of the legal system. At least

13:12

I think one of the other things I feel like I've seen a

13:14

lot is telling people, you know, if you're going

13:16

to a clinic to turn off your

13:18

location services on your phone, when you

13:20

go just again, as Rafa

13:22

said earlier, making sure that you are taking care

13:25

of your digital footprint and privacy throughout

13:27

this whole process. Okay

13:30

. So are there things

13:32

I need to think about after? I feel like

13:34

we kind of already touched on this a little bit, but

13:36

I think it is again such an important point

13:39

to talk about like considerations

13:41

after.

13:43

Yeah. I , I think, you know, we can't stress

13:45

strongly enough, the importance of thinking about

13:48

who you're talking to and who you're interacting with

13:50

afterwards as well. Again, it's, it's

13:52

really important to keep your information private

13:55

as much as you can only share it

13:57

with who you need. And again, I think this

14:00

is another area where if you are able

14:02

to access clinic based care and you have questions

14:05

about what to expect after,

14:07

you know, you receive an abortion, ask

14:09

those questions of your provider , have the

14:12

information that you feel like you might need to make decisions

14:14

for yourself afterwards.

14:16

Yeah . And I think awareness of risk is

14:19

a hard thing to tell people about because

14:21

it can be a little bit daunting and scary, but

14:24

it's important to remember who has been criminalized

14:26

with our abortions, right? We know that people who've self

14:29

managed , their abortions are more likely to be criminalized. And

14:31

at the same time we recognize

14:33

that the people who are being

14:36

criminalized or the same folks that are most

14:39

cut off from care in the first place. And so

14:42

this is, you know, Liz mentioned this, it

14:44

depends on who you are, but the folks that are criminalized

14:46

are always going to be the same folks across

14:48

systems and situations because the state has

14:51

an incentive to criminalize certain folks. And

14:53

I mean specifically black folks, brown folks,

14:55

migrant folks, indigenous folks, survivors,

14:59

actually trans and gender nonconforming

15:01

people, people, poor

15:03

people, people that don't have access to safe housing

15:06

and then any sort of anyone that the

15:08

medical system or the legal system is

15:11

deems of suspicious. And that's

15:13

a really thing to learn about yourself. If you happen

15:15

to fall into any of those categories. Cause it's

15:17

not always about your

15:19

actions, right. Or it's not necessarily what you

15:21

did or where you did it or how much care you

15:23

took. It's just about the fundamentals of who you

15:26

are and how you navigate the world, which

15:28

is obviously deeply racist and

15:30

misogynist and classist

15:32

and all those things.

15:34

Yeah. And especially you've fallen multiple

15:36

of those intersections, right?

15:39

Like much more likely to

15:41

face criminalization or have be

15:44

questioned around your decisions.

15:47

You know , that's definitely something we've seen with

15:49

criminalization prior to

15:52

the Dobbs decision, right? Where you

15:54

see pregnancy outcomes and

15:56

things be challenged. It's

15:58

really like who is being looked at harder

16:01

than the other people. It's not about what

16:04

happened. It's definitely about the person and

16:06

who the doctor

16:09

or nurse . Cause as you said, it's often like

16:12

at the hospital or, or the provider

16:14

who takes a closer look and raises

16:17

questions again, just

16:19

really troubling to have to think

16:21

about that. Or have to think that the

16:24

doctors you're seeing might

16:26

not be on your side for all the things when

16:28

you really trust

16:30

that that is the case.

16:32

Totally. I mean, I think in general, pregnant

16:35

people are fall on

16:37

their own in a category of risk in terms of

16:40

criminalization. I don't think pregnant people in this country

16:42

really have the benefit of being seen

16:44

as deserving of care. They themselves are

16:47

seen as suspicious, constantly questioned

16:49

about the worthiness of their parenting

16:51

and how they're handling their pregnancy,

16:54

you know, tested without their consent constantly.

16:56

There's so many ways in which pregnant people,

16:59

I think aren't treated with the love and care

17:01

that they deserve in a fundamentally dangerous

17:03

moment in their life, medically dangerous. Right.

17:05

And so I think that's the other part is like, there's

17:08

a kind of fear that I hear people talk about. Like I'm

17:10

scared to have a miscarriage in a way, or

17:12

I'm scared to have a stillbirth, which is such

17:15

a devastating thing to have to think about

17:17

as opposed to being able to focus on

17:19

the grief and the trauma of the experience in the first

17:21

place.

17:23

Right there . There's the like scared

17:25

it will happen because it's

17:28

a tragic thing to happen, but like then

17:30

have to have this other external worry

17:33

on top of it or to make the experience

17:36

that much worse. It just breaks my heart.

17:39

Okay. So now we've gotten to the, the

17:42

like, okay, all these possible ways

17:44

that you could run afoul of

17:46

the criminal justice system. So, okay.

17:49

Now, now I'm in that place with,

17:51

again being, I'm a

17:54

straight white woman who probably won't

17:57

be looked at in the same way to

17:59

happy at that risk. Like definitely

18:01

thinking through the impacts

18:04

of like who is gonna be impacted

18:06

is a really, again, an important

18:08

point to push, but now

18:12

I need help. What are my next steps?

18:15

Yeah. I think something to also keep

18:17

in mind is, and

18:20

I think it's important for listeners to , to

18:22

know this, which is that

18:25

it's not that people are running afoul of

18:27

the criminal legal system, right? It's that the

18:29

laws are being misapplied and misused

18:32

to target and harm very

18:35

specific people. And this is how criminalization

18:38

has worked historically in this country. And it

18:40

continues to work every single day. So

18:43

I want people to know that if

18:46

something happens, if they are contacted

18:48

by contacted by law enforcement, that

18:52

is not because they have done something

18:54

to deserve that there are

18:57

state actors, there are people in power

18:59

who are using discretion to make these

19:01

decisions. That being said, I

19:03

think, you know, something we would tell any

19:06

person who contacts our helpline, which is

19:08

if you are being contacted by law enforcement,

19:11

in any setting , um, don't talk to the

19:13

police without a lawyer being present , right.

19:16

Assert your right to have a lawyer. Then

19:18

people can definitely call our helpline again

19:20

immediately when they're experiencing a legal

19:23

emergency like that .

19:24

Totally. And

19:25

That's really great to know.

19:27

Yeah. And I guess that's a little bit , you know, know

19:29

your right stuff is always hard because I

19:31

feel like I could have done a thousand lawyer

19:33

rights trainings and then a cop comes to my

19:35

door and knocks on the door and says, let me in. And I forget

19:38

to ask about a warrant and I'm like, come on

19:40

in, let me make you some tea. Let me talk about

19:42

really personal details of my life. Cuz I'm

19:44

so anxious in this moment. I just wanna overshare

19:47

like all of those dynamics play

19:49

out in criminalization. And so I think sometimes

19:52

it can be really hard, but I almost

19:54

like, you know, want like

19:56

people to , you know , that like that scene in the beginning

19:58

of the Simpsons where Bart Simpson writes the same

20:00

thing over and over again, like I

20:02

kind of wanna do that scene in my own head

20:05

just to like make myself fully

20:07

IMB by the UN the value of

20:09

not speaking to the police, not answering

20:11

their questions and especially in the sort

20:13

of Miranda oblation world where you

20:16

won't even be reminded potentially if that

20:18

right. I think it's something we really

20:20

just have to know within ourselves. And

20:22

that like practicing remaining silent

20:25

is some serious work, especially

20:27

under really, really extreme scrutiny. And

20:30

so I think, you know, I used to say this

20:33

all the time as a public defender where someone would

20:35

say this police officer was really

20:37

nice or they

20:39

told me, which is like almost a TV line

20:42

now. Right? Like I'll , I'll talk to the da. Who's

20:44

my personal buddy. And they'll give you a good deal.

20:46

Like all of those things are, are lies

20:48

that the police are allowed to tell you they're,

20:51

you know, legally allowed to

20:53

lie to you. And so there's a

20:55

way in which I think you just have to have

20:57

the sense of self and this understanding that

21:00

the criminal punishment system and all of its arms

21:02

are not here to help you, no matter how

21:05

much they tell you. You know, and

21:08

often again, you hear the sort of see

21:10

the idea of the good go and bad go , but how it

21:12

plays out in practice maybe feels less clear

21:14

and you have someone who's saying, I

21:17

feel sympathetic to you. Or like, I

21:19

imagine this is hugely traumatizing for you. And

21:21

the comfort of having someone affirm that in a

21:23

moment of crisis can be really,

21:26

really, you know, Luing to someone to

21:28

wanna say something. So it's

21:31

to have to tell people this again, but it's like, I

21:33

think the most protective thing is to just not

21:36

trust any of the arms

21:38

of law enforcement, they're not there to help you . They're

21:40

not there to make your life any easier .

21:44

Great . I , again , I , I

21:47

really feel the, like I

21:49

need to get that in my head and like,

21:51

not just fall back on my, like I'm

21:53

from the Midwest. So like my fault , my

21:56

go-to is like, very nice. How can

21:58

I help you? And what can I do? And

22:01

yeah, Nope . Need to like really

22:03

get that through of like, not

22:06

just trying to be helpful. So

22:10

I feel like this is a really good time to maybe

22:12

talk a little bit more about if,

22:15

when , how and the help line , and then we could talk

22:17

about the rele defense fund. So

22:20

people could have a better understanding of like the full

22:22

range of help they can get from both of them .

22:25

Sure . Yeah . Thele help

22:29

is a completely free and

22:31

confidential legal resource for literally

22:34

anyone in all 50 states who

22:36

have questions about reproductive

22:39

justice. And I'm being very broad , say

22:42

reproductive justice. Um , because

22:45

we want people to know what the laws are,

22:47

what their rights are. So again

22:49

, they can make the decisions that they

22:52

want to make and they need to make for that are best

22:54

for them . So that includes answering

22:56

questions, you know, especially now after dogs

22:59

about what do the bands in my

23:01

state actually mean for me as person , who's

23:04

trying to make a decision that also means talking

23:06

to people about any legal

23:08

risks that they might face depending on how they're choosing

23:10

to end a pregnancy. So that could be

23:12

, you know , accessing clinic care that

23:15

also be choosing to self , know

23:18

that self abortion may

23:21

be the best choice for , for any

23:24

number of reasons . And you know , that's

23:27

great , but that doesn't doesn't legal

23:29

. So we can answer those questions

23:32

that are really specific to someone's situation.

23:34

We also answer questions from young

23:36

people who are, who

23:39

wanna know what their rights are about accessing

23:41

abortion care. So we know that in many

23:44

states, young people are often forgotten

23:46

when it comes to abortion care. And

23:50

there are laws, unfortunately called forced

23:52

parental involvement laws that really remove

23:55

bodily autonomy from that young person . And

23:58

we can talk to people about what those laws say,

24:01

what they might mean for them in their situation,

24:04

as well as, you know, how they might access

24:06

something called a judicial bypass hearing . And

24:08

we can talk what their rights

24:11

are and what options might be available to .

24:14

I love help so much . We

24:21

I's just a great resource . Oh

24:23

my God . I remember the first time I

24:25

heard about the helpline and just feeling like the

24:27

sigh of relief that someone, someone had

24:29

this handled is such a, yeah,

24:32

such a comfort in , in this time, especially.

24:35

So in terms of the RDF , I wanted to go

24:37

back a little bit before I talk about the actual services

24:40

that the rele defense fund provides to

24:42

talk about what criminalization looks like in

24:45

our imagination. So

24:47

one, we think about the , the process

24:49

of criminalization is not just the criminal

24:52

punishment system , so not just harass

24:55

prosecution and criminal court , what leads to bail,

24:57

incarceration, cetera , all of that is obviously

24:59

extremely cruel and violent . And

25:02

it's also not the only venue that the state uses

25:04

to criminalize people in . So Liz just

25:06

mentioned sort of family court, and

25:09

I think that's another much like cops

25:11

, ACS or CPS workers. You

25:14

know, you have to think of those folks often

25:16

disguised or cosplaying as social

25:18

workers, maybe actually having those

25:20

degrees and still not necessarily being

25:23

there to help you and actually being there to report

25:25

you so through that system

25:27

and then the immigration slash deportation

25:29

system. So, you

25:31

know, there's a long history of detention centers

25:34

and reproductive injustice on that front and

25:36

for sterilizations. And

25:38

then also just the fact that these systems work

25:40

in parallel. So if you are someone

25:43

who's not a us citizen and you're facing criminal

25:46

charges, there will be immigration

25:48

consequences for you potentially. And so that's

25:50

the thing to consider and Thele

25:52

defense fund knows this, understands this. And

25:54

so part of our job is really to support people

25:58

financially, to bridge the gap between

26:00

having a good defense and not by

26:02

virtue of resources, but not just in

26:04

the criminal realm. Also the immigration and

26:07

family realm . And so the rele

26:09

defense fund works in two sort

26:12

of categories. And we think of one as

26:14

bail, which is our most expansive category.

26:16

So if someone's being criminalized

26:19

for their pregnancy, their pregnancy outcome,

26:22

they should reach out to us and apply

26:24

for support. And then if someone

26:27

is being criminalized specifically for allegations

26:29

of having self-managed their abortions, which,

26:32

you know, there's like this , this idea , I

26:34

think within the legal system , in many states , even where it's

26:36

not explicitly criminalized, that there's

26:38

something more criminal , because it's more wrong

26:42

to self your abortion, this

26:44

idea that you're taking your reproductive, autonomy

26:46

, your body into your own hands, I

26:48

think terrifies the state quite a bit. And

26:51

so there's this false idea

26:53

. And this misapplication of the law that

26:55

Liz says where people are dark specifically

26:58

allegations of having self manage , and then it's

27:01

kind , you know, prosecutors throw anything

27:03

at people . So not only will

27:05

they argue on the one hand that you allegedly

27:07

self-managed, they're very comfortable simultaneously

27:10

arguing that there was a live birth for

27:12

instance, and you did something to,

27:15

you know, cause that, cause

27:17

that loss. And so I think there's

27:20

a way in which we really like

27:22

to think about all the different places

27:24

that we can show up for somebody at the repro

27:26

legal defense fund, which

27:28

involves yes, paying their bail, but

27:31

also paying attorney's fees, getting expert

27:33

witnesses in the room expert

27:35

witnesses that if wehow has relationships with

27:37

and has worked with before, so that they can

27:39

really argue against some of the junk science

27:41

that prosecutors are so comfortable using

27:44

so that they can allege all these multiple opposing

27:46

things. And then I

27:49

guess right now we're in a place where I

27:51

think most likely people who are helpers are

27:53

, are risk. And I

27:56

think the rele defense fund also realize

27:58

that they needed to sort of expand to that

28:00

realm. And so our bail support includes helpers

28:03

for folks who are trying to access abortion care.

28:06

And then there's like our legal defense fund, which is

28:08

bigger than just bail and anyone who sort

28:10

of in the SMA realm can reach

28:13

out to us for support. So if you're the

28:15

person who's directly being accused, if

28:17

you're a helper, if you're an activist, absolutely

28:20

reach out to us and will try to make sure that you

28:22

have the resources you need to fight back against

28:24

the sort of huge this

28:26

arm of this , this violence of the state, which

28:28

is obviously no small

28:31

feat . And then sometimes, you know, we

28:33

realize as former defense attorneys that

28:35

people need support, that's not just you can't just

28:38

source sort of money at the problem that there's

28:40

bigger issues that people have. Then

28:42

maybe the concern is about a specific

28:45

misdemeanor charge or a criminal charge.

28:47

Maybe they're concerned they're gonna be separated from their

28:50

families. Maybe they're concerned that their

28:52

housing is on , is insecure at the moment.

28:54

Maybe they don't have a cell phone and that the court

28:56

is saying you're a flight risk and

28:58

because you don't have a cell phone . And so we try

29:01

to support them in all those fronts as well.

29:03

I hate that we exist in some ways. And I

29:05

also think we're incredible. And so I

29:07

really hope that if people need our support, they know

29:09

that they should reach out to us

29:11

. And, you know, even if they're uncertain

29:14

that this is the exact support that they need

29:16

, it's , it's better to just reach out and be

29:18

cautious . And I would say the same , the help overly

29:22

as your friend . I think that's all I have to say about

29:24

, I just wanna say

29:26

the R L DF is amazing.

29:28

Well, I was just gonna say like, first of all,

29:30

I knew both of y'all were

29:32

amazing and your organizations were amazing,

29:35

but like hearing you talk about like the full

29:37

range of things that the rele

29:39

defense fund do . And if one

29:41

, how do like I'm even more impressed

29:44

than I was already. Like just

29:46

what an amazing resource for

29:49

people who need it . Both of them

29:55

Ile is also resource available

29:58

for people who are helping others access

30:01

care or who are helping others, considering

30:03

a self managed abortion , um, people can

30:05

absolutely call us and ask about what

30:08

legal risk they may be facing if they're choosing to

30:10

help someone in their life with their choices .

30:16

Nice flag. Thank you . Okay

30:18

. So now that we know about these like

30:21

amazing organizations and

30:23

all the things we need to keep in mind, I always

30:25

like to wrap up episodes with action

30:28

, cause there's so much going on and

30:30

I feel like people want to know what they can do

30:32

to help. So what action can our audience

30:35

take to help in any

30:37

of these issues?

30:38

I'm happy to go first because I'm gonna ask

30:40

people to give money <laugh> , which

30:42

Is, I was gonna ask people to

30:44

give you guys money to

30:46

It's. So unsatisfying, I

30:48

think, both to

30:51

ask for money and wow for

30:53

an organization. And then to say that that's

30:55

the way that you wanna show up. And also I

30:58

think that it's really fundamentally the smartest

31:00

way to show up for people right now.

31:03

And rage donating feels so

31:06

good. Y'all like when I get mad

31:08

and see things, I go

31:10

and give to these organizations

31:12

and I feel so much better because

31:15

I know they all need the resources

31:17

right now.

31:18

And I think we're really good at giving those resources

31:21

away . I think that's the part that I feel really

31:23

good about saying, you know, my mother, when I became

31:26

a public defender said, of course you became a

31:28

free lawyer cuz you would be terrible at asking people

31:30

for money. And I

31:32

feel like that is probably still true, but

31:34

in this particular realm, I feel fine

31:37

asking for it because one, we

31:39

don't need to recreate networks. I think there is

31:41

a sort of misogyny about how we view

31:43

the repro movement we assume,

31:46

or the world assumes that the movement is

31:48

unprepared. And I think the opposite

31:51

is true . I think in the face of extreme hardship,

31:53

the movement is incredibly prepared , especially

31:56

around practical support . The repro is

31:58

really smart about how it gives its money away. And

32:01

so, you know, if you're out there wondering is

32:03

my money gonna go to go to something? Yes.

32:05

Your money. If you give it to the repro legal defense

32:07

fund at least goes to someone's. Bail goes to

32:10

that cell phone bill . I just talked about it's

32:12

very tangible, practical support for someone.

32:15

And I cannot say enough that criminalization

32:17

is intentionally expensive. There

32:19

is, it is not an accident that bail is high.

32:21

It is not an accident that attorneys will charge

32:23

you an arm and a leg. It's not an accident

32:26

that poor folks are charged disproportionately

32:29

for crimes. And then the cost of it

32:31

is sort of disproportionate as a result as well.

32:34

All of these are intentional moves. And so we

32:36

need a concerted, intentional resourced

32:38

effort to fight back . That's my , for

32:41

what you ,

32:43

I fully support Rafa's and

32:52

noting on

32:57

abortion rights on reproductive rights, on reproductive health,

33:00

reproductive , reproductive justice , none of

33:02

that is new that has been going

33:05

on for decades, right? So

33:07

there is a movement , there are systems in place

33:09

, there are networks in place . And so I

33:12

would say , if you are wondering how you can help

33:16

with your community , right ? Find out who's

33:18

been doing this work , um, and

33:21

try to learn from them what the

33:23

work looks like and what the need might

33:25

be before you try to jump in and

33:28

say , well , I think this needs to happen and

33:30

try to create something . I think that is so

33:32

important to listen to the people who have been doing this

33:34

work for years now.

33:38

Yeah . It's always disconcerting when

33:40

I see people talking about whatever the

33:42

new camping

33:45

or whatever, setting up the different

33:48

networks, I'm like, no, but like abortion

33:50

funds exist and like they're doing great work

33:53

or y'all exist and are

33:55

doing great work. Yeah. It's

33:57

just really important to get connected with the resources

33:59

that already exist and are doing,

34:02

doing the work and have the connections

34:04

in place.

34:05

And I think the other thing

34:07

to remember is that sometimes

34:09

movements become fads. And I

34:11

really want us to think about the

34:14

fact that this is going to be something that has been

34:16

happening like Liz said , and

34:19

therefore has prepared us to

34:21

be responsive in a particular way. And

34:23

like, where are folks gonna be in six months?

34:26

Where are folks gonna be in three years? Where are folks

34:28

gonna be in five years? How are you building

34:31

a repro analysis into your life

34:33

? How are you shifting the culture of how we

34:35

treat pregnant people in your life? And

34:37

I think some of those things are the big things that

34:39

you can do on the smaller

34:42

scale that maybe aren't about being

34:45

visible. They aren't about, you know, participating

34:47

in an organization. But they're just about how we talk

34:49

each other , how we look at people. I

34:52

remember when I first came to New York city, one

34:54

of my friends who later on became somebody

34:56

that worked in family court to defend parents

34:59

who were accused of neglect

35:01

and abuse and a bunch of other stuff that is about the

35:03

same stuff we just talked about. But looking

35:05

at someone who was pregnant and smoking and

35:07

feeling really nervous about it like

35:10

many, many years ago. And of course one can see

35:12

how, when you shift your mind and you understand

35:14

the systems that play and you think about trauma

35:16

in a bigger sense, or you think about, you know, resources

35:19

in a bigger sense, it shifts

35:21

how you live in the world. And so I think there's

35:24

a way in which like, think about your own lens, think

35:26

about how you view pregnant people. Are you, are

35:28

you expecting them to like, you

35:31

know, I , I remember being pregnant and being like, oh my God, I

35:33

hope there's never any black ice because I'm so

35:35

terrified of something were to happen to me. Me, no,

35:37

one's gonna think about how scary that would be

35:39

for me. No one would think about how

35:42

terrified I would be about this wanted pregnancy,

35:44

but instead they would look at me with the judgment of how

35:46

are you as a pregnant person gonna walk around

35:49

carelessly, not noticing black eyes

35:51

, you know? And I think there's something about

35:53

that lens that we view people that I think

35:56

if you don't wanna donate at least do the work of

35:58

like reading and resourcing yourself

36:01

and seeing how this movement needs to be a part of your

36:03

life for the long haul. Because you know,

36:05

the Wright has been working on this for so long,

36:07

in such a coordinated fashion and their

36:09

asks are bold and violent and

36:12

they're very comfortable doing that. And I

36:14

would love us to be really,

36:16

really bold in our commitment to

36:19

people around their bodily autonomy sort

36:21

of, you know, unabashedly and

36:24

unapologetically.

36:25

Yes . See, this is our , our opportunity to build something

36:28

much better than what we had before. Well,

36:31

Rafa Liz, thank you so much for being here.

36:34

I had so much fun talking to you today

36:36

. Thank you for coming up . Thank

36:38

You for having us. You're such a great

36:40

host and such a joy to spend time with.

36:43

Yes. Thank you so much. I'm so excited

36:46

to dive into the rest of your podcast too.

36:50

Okay . Y'all I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Rafa

36:52

and Liz. It was so great to talk to

36:54

them about all of these issues and definitely

36:57

make sure to get out there and support

36:59

if, when how for their great work and the

37:01

rele defense fund for their great work,

37:04

both organizations are really needed now

37:06

more than ever. And I'm sure

37:08

they could definitely use your support. And

37:11

with that, I think just

37:13

if you have any questions or an episode

37:16

or topic, you would like us to cover always

37:19

feel free to reach out. You can email

37:21

me, Jenny repos, fight

37:24

back.com and that's Jenny with an IE,

37:27

or you can reach out to us on social media,

37:29

repos, fight back on Facebook and Twitter or

37:32

repos FB on Instagram. Otherwise

37:34

I will see you'all in two weeks for

37:38

more information, including show notes

37:40

from this episode and previous episodes,

37:42

please visit us at our website at repro,

37:44

fight back.com . You

37:47

can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at

37:49

repro fight back and on Instagram

37:51

at repro FB . If

37:53

you like our show, please help others find it

37:56

by sharing it with your friends and please rate

37:58

and review us on apple podcasts. Thanks

38:01

for listening.