0:04

Welcome to Repro Fight Back, a

0:07

podcast where we explore all things reproductive

0:09

health, rights, and justice. I'm

0:12

your host, Jenny Wetter , and I'll

0:14

be helping you stay informed around issues like

0:16

birth control, abortion, sex education,

0:18

and L G B T Q issues

0:21

and much, much more giving

0:23

you the tools you need to take action

0:25

and fight back. Okay, let's dive

0:27

in. Hi,

0:36

re gross . How's everybody doing? I'm

0:38

your host Jenny Wetter , and my pronouns

0:41

are she her. So

0:43

y'all, this last week, I've been a little bit on

0:45

the struggle bus. I just, you

0:48

know, I feel like I've talked about this before on the podcast. I

0:50

have like these inner

0:53

hecklers, this is like how my imposter

0:56

syndrome anxiety and all this show up is

0:59

I, I have like these inner hecklers,

1:01

honestly, I review 'em as like Statler and Waldorf

1:03

in the back of my head who are all, you

1:05

know, you're not good enough, you don't know what you're

1:08

doing, blah, blah, blah. All the , all

1:10

the normal, right? Usually

1:13

I'm pretty good at just like ignoring them and

1:15

drowning them out. Uh, but, but the

1:17

last week for some reason they were being

1:19

extra loud and annoying and

1:22

we're , we're getting to me. And so it was a little bit of a struggle.

1:25

Um, now when I'm, when I'm talking about this, I'm actually doing

1:27

better. I, it was just a rough week

1:31

and, you know, I just really tried

1:33

to be open about these things. Cause you

1:35

know, I know I'm not the only person who

1:37

goes through this. And, and I know we

1:39

all struggle at times and,

1:42

you know, it's nice to put

1:45

it out there once , so you know, you're

1:47

not alone. And it

1:50

, it was, it's always nice. And, you

1:52

know, I definitely had friends who

1:55

I, I tweeted it and was just saying,

1:57

you know, staler Wilder for

1:59

being, you know, extra loud right now and it's

2:03

distracting and, you know,

2:05

the , the messages of love and support are

2:07

always helpful. And they,

2:10

they came just when they were needed. Um,

2:12

you know, like I said, nothing too bad, just like the

2:15

vo the , uh, the hecklers were

2:17

being a little louder than usual. And

2:19

I just, yeah, I

2:21

was, I was on my way out on

2:24

my way through at that point and it was really great

2:26

to have people being like,

2:28

no, seriously, that they're , your , those voices are

2:30

just being to like, just ignore them,

2:32

tell them to go touch grass. And it

2:35

, it was helpful. And I

2:38

am just really grateful for my support system

2:40

and for just like all of my great

2:42

friends, cuz I, I just needed

2:44

that little bit of like, dude, you

2:46

know, those voices are being ridiculous. Come

2:49

on. And I do know those voices

2:51

are being ridiculous, but sometimes

2:54

they get loud and a little distracting.

2:57

So I think I might just kinda kinda end it there.

2:59

I have kind of a long interview this week. Um,

3:02

it's really amazing. But it's, it's

3:04

so, it was a little long cuz we just

3:06

had a lot to talk about. So let's

3:08

go ahead and turn to the interview. I

3:11

had a wonderful conversation , um,

3:13

with Liza Fuentes at the Tuma Institute.

3:16

We ha I have her on to talk about

3:18

this great new , uh, uh,

3:20

paper she wrote talking about inequity

3:23

and us abortion rights and access

3:26

and that how post stops

3:28

, that's only getting worse. And it's a really wonderful

3:30

conversation. I hope y'all enjoy

3:33

it. Uh, so here is my conversation

3:35

with Liza. Hi Liza. Thank you so

3:37

much for being here today.

3:39

Hi. Thank you so much for

3:41

having me on the podcast. It's

3:43

really exciting to have this conversation.

3:47

Um, even if a little grim at the moment.

3:49

Yeah. Uh , we're recording this right

3:51

after what would've been the 50th anniversary

3:54

of Roe . And so it's kind of a heavy time to

3:56

like think through all

3:59

of the things at the moment.

4:01

Yes, for sure. I mean, yesterday

4:04

it was just like a Sunday

4:06

I was doing my laundry, working

4:08

out and just thinking about

4:12

what people in this country would've been thinking

4:14

50 years ago. And yeah

4:17

. Um , what a difference it made for pregnant

4:20

people, anyone who could have become pregnant at that

4:22

time, people who had recently had abortions

4:25

and how how much

4:27

things have turned around. But also there, there

4:30

are many ways in which, you know, the landscape

4:32

for abortion, Karen access is

4:34

quite different. Uh , but as we'll

4:37

talk about the bigger

4:39

infrastructures, the bigger structural

4:42

determinants of health that organize, you

4:44

know, the privilege of healthcare access in this

4:46

country. Many of those things remain the same. And

4:49

I think those are, that's an important , um,

4:52

those are important , um, narratives

4:55

and facts to out if you wanna continue to

4:57

protect and advance abortion rights . Okay

4:59

.

5:00

Let me catch myself before we get like, too

5:02

excited and get talking. Yeah. Do you wanna take

5:04

a second and introduce yourself and

5:06

include your pronouns? Yes. Because I w

5:09

I have definitely done that before and forget to

5:11

have people do introductions . So let's,

5:13

let's talk

5:14

To that . Yeah . Thank you very much. My name is Liza

5:16

Fuentes . I'm a senior research scientist at

5:19

Good Institute and Good

5:21

Institute is a nonprofit organization

5:24

based in New York City and Washington

5:27

DC Um , and we work through

5:29

, um, public health and social science

5:32

research , policy analysis and public communications

5:35

to advance sexual and reproductive , uh,

5:38

rights in the United States and really throughout

5:40

the world . Um , um,

5:42

really taking the perspective

5:45

that understanding people's

5:47

experiences and , um, looking

5:49

at the science and facts around reproductive health

5:51

is the key basis for forming

5:53

policy. Um, and my pronouns

5:56

are she

5:56

Her . Thank you. Yeah. Y'all are always

5:58

my first go-to when I need some

6:01

factoid or data or

6:04

any number of things. Like guttmacher

6:06

is the first people I turn to.

6:07

Well, I'm really glad to hear

6:09

that. And it we're very thrilled to

6:12

, um, be of service to,

6:14

you know, our colleagues in the movement who

6:17

are really building so many

6:19

of the arguments and doing so much of the organizing

6:22

and storytelling around the , um,

6:24

the key issues that we work on.

6:26

Okay . So let's turn to this amazing paper

6:28

that you just put out talking

6:30

about the in inequalities and

6:33

inequities in , um, healthcare

6:35

and an abortion specifically and

6:38

how the loss of ROE is gonna exacerbate

6:40

them. So maybe let's start at the very beginning

6:43

cuz it is , it's a lot. And talk

6:46

about some of the existing

6:48

inequities in abortion access.

6:50

Yeah, well that's , uh, that's

6:53

an important point to start at

6:55

because I think if you're

6:57

someone who really wants to

7:00

understand more about what it means to

7:02

overturn roe and what we're looking at in

7:04

the future, you might be

7:06

looking around, especially social media or even

7:09

the news and , um,

7:12

see that people are talking about how the

7:14

overturn of roe is gonna disproportionately

7:16

have negative effects

7:19

on certain communities, certain groups

7:22

of people. And, you

7:24

know, for anyone who tracks health

7:26

inequities and disparities, you know, that's

7:28

like really what we're talking about when we talk

7:31

about health inequities . That health access

7:33

to the resources to take care of

7:35

oneself, to access healthcare . And

7:38

then those health outcomes are

7:40

not the same for different groups of people. And in particular

7:42

in the United States, we often are talking about race because

7:45

race and racism is such an organizing principle

7:48

of privilege in society. Um

7:50

, and we talk about income and wealth because

7:52

access to those types of material

7:55

resources , um, are directly needed to

7:57

access healthcare . So, you

7:59

know, just to get to your question, I wanted to give that background,

8:02

right. Abortion is , is not different. Super

8:03

Important context.

8:04

Yeah. Abortion in , in many ways

8:06

is not different from how we understand

8:09

how health and wellbeing

8:11

get distributed in society. Um

8:14

, along lines of system is

8:17

oppression like racism and classism . Um

8:19

, and so , uh, the first thing

8:21

to know is that even before ROE was overturned,

8:23

we had inequities in abortion access . Not everyone

8:26

who needed abortion care, or

8:28

let me back up even further. Not everyone , which

8:32

who needs to be able to plan if , when

8:34

and under what circumstances to become pregnant

8:36

and have children have the same resources

8:39

to be able to do that . And that's

8:41

been true for , um, since the founding

8:43

of this country . Um , but understanding

8:46

how that gets embedded in , in

8:48

, in the way abortion access manifests

8:50

, sort of one of the motivations that we had write

8:53

, you

8:55

know, the very, very first thing is what

8:58

are the resources that people need to decide if

9:00

one , and how to become pregnant and

9:02

give birth. And you know, in the paper we

9:04

highlight a couple of really primary

9:06

examples. Um, but, you

9:09

know, any range of things including

9:11

safe and affordable housing,

9:14

you know, communities that

9:16

, uh, where people feel safe , where they have the resources

9:18

to be in community, right? Spend

9:21

time together safely, you know, be

9:23

able to access , um, food

9:25

and living wages, you know , where they

9:28

live . All of these things are foundational principles

9:30

for general public health and the

9:33

concept of reproductive justice, right? Which,

9:35

you know, this , um, really

9:37

invaluable framework that frankly

9:40

black women scholars and

9:42

activists have been , um, using

9:45

for centuries in this country . But the term

9:47

that came about in the nineties was that

9:50

simply accessing contraception

9:53

healthcare is not adequate

9:55

to describe the ways that

9:58

our social structures are , um,

10:01

harming and failing to serve , um,

10:03

the health and wellbeing of communities of color , and particularly

10:06

women of color . And so when we

10:08

talk about reproductive justice, we talk

10:10

about the foundational inequities , um,

10:12

by which people don't even have the ability

10:15

, or at least the full ability to

10:18

be able to decide, you know, if, when , and

10:20

how to become pregnant. We only, we highlight a

10:22

couple of really key things that really have

10:24

to do with healthcare access. So number one is income.

10:28

And, you know, that might seem obvious, you

10:30

know, different people have different incomes cause we have different

10:32

jobs. But , um, there

10:34

is an economic justice framework

10:36

that we have to look at, which is that there

10:39

is a profound wage gap in this country

10:41

, um, by race and gender. And

10:43

at the intersection of race and gender, we

10:45

know that black women and Latinas in particular

10:48

earn wages that are

10:51

half that of white men . So on the face

10:54

of it , but we know that things

10:56

like healthcare services, contraception,

10:59

contraceptive devices and methods

11:01

cost money. Um , we see

11:03

that women of color are already in a position

11:05

where they simply don't have the same level

11:07

of resources. Income is just one example

11:10

. And then we get into health insurance. Why does

11:12

health insurance matter? Well, health insurance

11:14

really is the dominant way that people access healthcare

11:16

in the United States of which family

11:19

planning, contraception, abortion , and abortion, you

11:22

know, are, are part of those healthcare services.

11:24

And women, and particularly black

11:27

and brown women are much less likely to have

11:29

any health insurance coverage at

11:31

all on the order of almost

11:35

50% to almost two times the proportion

11:37

of white women that don't have health insurance.

11:41

Percent of Latinas have no health insurance. 13%

11:43

of black women in this country have reproductive age , have

11:46

literally no health insurance . And , um,

11:49

we're talking about when we're 12 years

11:51

out from the Affordable Care Act , which profoundly

11:54

expanded healthcare access to many

11:56

people, we still are living in a country

11:58

where those gaps exist and that their , um,

12:00

the burdens are falling on, on black and

12:02

brown women. So then you just have

12:05

a landscape where reproductive

12:07

of health from the very beginning , right, sexual of

12:09

health is not , um,

12:12

enjoyed at the same level by different

12:15

groups of people. And that background

12:17

<laugh> , I'm talking a lot, is important.

12:20

Cause the question often comes up about

12:23

inequities in abortion in particular

12:25

, people are incredibly interested in this

12:28

as they should be, right? Because first of all,

12:30

we know historically that even when abortion

12:32

is highly restricted , um, wealthy

12:34

people, frankly will always get abortion

12:37

care. This is really well documented.

12:40

Um, and so when we talk about restricting abortion,

12:42

including banning abortion, we're

12:45

not really talking about

12:47

taking away abortion access

12:49

for an entire population. We're

12:52

not really talking about , um,

12:54

a country coming together on a cultural and moral

12:56

level and deciding that this is what

12:58

we want . What we're talking about is

13:01

carving out , um,

13:03

a world for people who don't have

13:05

as many resources to , um,

13:08

be struggling to access abortion care

13:10

and getting abortions later , or being denied abortion

13:12

care . Whereas wealthy people will always

13:15

get that. And we

13:17

know that that's the case. So the

13:20

key part of this background is

13:22

this, that for the very same reasons

13:25

that , uh, particular communities in

13:27

this country, you know, and in the paper we highlight

13:29

, um, black and brown women , indigenous

13:32

women and people with low

13:34

incomes because we have the most data about

13:36

those communities. But it's important

13:38

to note that anyone who

13:42

is denied the right

13:45

the dignity , um, and

13:47

the resources to take care

13:49

of themselves, take care of their sexual work of health, including

13:52

trans people, non-binary people,

13:54

people living with disabilities , um,

13:56

young people, anyone

13:59

for whom , um, who they

14:01

are in this world interfaces with a policy that

14:03

says you don't deserve to have

14:05

the same rights and privileges as other people are

14:08

going to be in a very particular

14:10

bind. Which is we don't have the same

14:12

access to resources and

14:15

services to be able to plan whether

14:17

or not we wanna be become pregnant and have children. And

14:20

at the same time , uh, we

14:22

also, those same lack of , um,

14:25

of resources make abortion inaccessible,

14:28

right? So we may be more likely to need

14:30

abortion, but at the same time , we

14:33

may have greater burdens in accessing

14:35

it, which means further delays in abortion

14:38

care, abortion later than we wanted it

14:40

or maybe denied abortion care at all. And

14:42

it's a wordy way to pull together

14:45

a picture that a lot of people have a lot of questions about , which

14:47

is , if abortion rates are higher among

14:50

black, indigenous and Latina women

14:52

, um, how can we say that they have less

14:54

access to abortion? Cause you have to look

14:56

at the context in which the

14:59

resources, the privilege, and the

15:01

dignity to decide about

15:04

pregnancy in general and parenting in general

15:07

tell , are inform the story of being able

15:09

to prevent pregnancy and obtain

15:12

an abortion.

15:13

Yeah. I feel like a lot of anti's

15:15

interest in that data point really stop

15:18

is like they get more abortions full

15:20

stop, and there's no like questioning

15:22

of the like, okay, well they have less access

15:25

to contraception or more effective

15:27

methods of contraception, or

15:30

they don't ha don't have access to

15:32

healthcare to even think about crossing that next step.

15:35

They don't like take it back to

15:37

the beginning and see how all

15:39

the inequities started way

15:41

before that moment.

15:43

Precisely. I mean, certainly not,

15:45

and I'm not an anti, so I can't

15:47

necessarily speak to motivation, but

15:50

what I can say is that

15:52

the fundamental obvious

15:55

glaring gap that,

15:58

that they have to leverage to even able to

16:00

tell that story is for

16:03

the dignity, autonomy of the person

16:05

themselves being

16:07

the central metric of whether or

16:09

not their wellbeing is

16:11

being served. Right? So it's

16:14

easy to say that,

16:16

okay , you know, abortion rates are higher among black and

16:18

Latino women. And then spin

16:21

really sort of tales about

16:23

what that could mean, including,

16:25

you know, really horrific things like

16:28

thing that that black and brown women are targeted for abortion

16:30

. But if you bring

16:32

in the stories and the voices

16:34

of people for whom they're making decisions

16:37

about their body, that kind of , it

16:39

doesn't, it doesn't really hold water, right?

16:42

Everyone should be able to decide

16:44

for themselves outside with no coercion,

16:46

whether or not they wanna become pregnant , and if they're pregnant , whether

16:49

or not they want to have an abortion. But

16:51

simplistically taking something like,

16:53

you know, abortion rates , um,

16:55

by race or by any other group

16:57

of people and telling any tale about

17:00

it without understanding the bigger picture, means

17:03

that , you know , the humanity of the people we're talking about

17:05

who , who , who represent those rates , um,

17:08

has to be erased. And that's what I think they're

17:11

doing .

17:12

It was also interesting, you , you know, you brought

17:14

up , um, coercion a little bit

17:17

in thinking of another data point you talked about

17:19

was more black and brown people being

17:21

pushed into using birth control

17:23

or different methods of birth control.

17:26

And like that is also

17:28

a form of reproductive coercion

17:30

that is , um, put on that community

17:33

For sure. I mean, again, to

17:35

that point, I think even

17:38

further that maybe we could have gone further

17:40

in this paper, but we had to kinda , you

17:42

know , make it readable within 15 minutes. Is

17:45

that certainly , um, many

17:48

people are pretty familiar , um,

17:50

especially, you know, who pay

17:52

attention to these issues on the , on a daily basis,

17:55

are pretty familiar with well

17:57

documented cases of , um,

17:59

immigrant women, brown women, black women

18:02

being subject to coercion

18:04

around contraception and

18:08

sterilization. And that's not, but

18:10

those are not simply historical, right?

18:12

We can't say, oh, you know, in the seventies, Mexican

18:14

immigrant women were coerced into

18:16

accepting sterilization and

18:20

cause we know about that, it's giving us insight into

18:22

how we should behave today. That's not really

18:25

, um, the way to look at it. What

18:27

we know is that throughout the history of the

18:29

United States, black women, indigenous

18:31

women, immigrant women, disabled

18:34

women with living with disabilities have

18:36

been subject to , um, coercion

18:39

in some cases forced use of contraception and

18:41

sterilization. And when we look

18:43

at the fact that we are

18:45

now providing healthcare

18:48

in a system that was built on the

18:50

belief that for some people they

18:52

can't be trusted with decisions about their body, that

18:55

helps us understand why

18:58

total bans on abortion are being

19:00

accepted today and being advanced

19:02

in the United States , right ? The underlying belief

19:05

that some people, some human beings

19:08

who may become pregnant before are pregnant,

19:11

do not have the same level of

19:14

humanity, dignity, and right to make

19:16

a decision about whether or not they should become

19:18

pregnant. That's a through line , right?

19:21

You can't simply separate it out. And

19:23

that's also what we kind of try to highlight in

19:25

the paper . You know, contemporary public health,

19:27

social science, and medical research have

19:30

shown that the experience

19:32

of black women, immigrant men , Latino

19:34

women at , at the clinical encounter,

19:36

you know, today in recent times

19:39

also includes being given

19:41

advice, being encouraged, being directed

19:44

towards either not becoming

19:47

pregnant or certain types of contraception. And

19:50

based on really

19:52

a system of organizing

19:55

society in which social

19:57

problems are conceived

20:00

of as being really born

20:03

of black and brown women, right? And clinicians

20:06

are not , um, exempt

20:08

from those embedded beliefs because

20:10

they were also born and raised in the same society.

20:13

And we have to highlight those realities

20:15

if we wanna understand what

20:18

it would take to protect

20:20

and advance abortion rights. Because all

20:23

reproductive , all reproductive coercion in this country , and

20:25

, you know , writers and scholars like

20:27

Dorothy Roberts have said this , all reproductive

20:29

coercion , um, has

20:32

to be seen from the lens of

20:34

, to advance

20:37

white supremacy. Not

20:40

just misogyny and sexism , reproductive

20:43

coercion, gender

20:46

oppression you will

20:48

absolutely fail

20:51

to comprehend and therefore address

20:53

the way that reproductive coercion works in this country,

20:55

right? Certainly white

20:57

women in many ways are collateral damage

21:00

of policies, both informal

21:02

and formal to control the reproduction

21:06

of black and brown bodies. And

21:08

, um, white women are subject to coercion

21:10

based on their whiteness, right? We

21:13

hear about white women being denied sterilization, for

21:15

example. Maybe they'll regret it . That bigger

21:18

picture is the foundation for understanding

21:20

, um, why we have abortion

21:22

restrictions in abortion bans and why

21:25

they fundamentally, people have stickers

21:27

now, oh, abortion bans are racist. It's

21:30

a soundbite that makes sense to people who've

21:32

who, who sort of live the

21:35

racism of abortion bans. But for someone who

21:37

thinks, oh , abortion's, you know , not about race abortion's,

21:40

you know about pregnancy , you have to understand

21:43

the history of this country and the

21:45

, the ways that reproductive, the toe abortion

21:47

are actually the tool of maintaining white supremacy.

21:49

If you wanna understand the motivation

21:52

behind things like abortion bans and

21:54

also the effect that they'll have on communities,

21:57

Oh yeah, that's like the most perfect segue ever

22:00

into , um, the inequitable

22:02

effects of abortion restrictions.

22:05

You know, you really talked about it , the

22:07

abortion bans are racist campaigns and like trying

22:10

to make , get people to understand that point. So

22:12

let's dig into a little bit about how

22:15

there are inequitable impacts that

22:17

we are seeing.

22:18

I think now we're at like 12

22:20

states have banned abortion outright completely

22:22

. Another couple have banned abortion at

22:24

six weeks pregnancy , or more

22:27

or less at six weeks pregnancy, which is before

22:29

many people know that they're pregnant. And

22:31

I'll just note before I talk

22:33

about the inequitable effects , just

22:36

the immediate landscape is

22:39

that almost 70 abortion

22:41

clinics in this country have closed in in the past six

22:44

months . You know , we calculated in first 100 days

22:46

after the decision that overturned Roe

22:49

66 abortion permits closed in this country. So

22:51

we have thousands of women in

22:54

this country, thousands of trans men

22:56

, non-binary people, anyone who could become

22:58

pregnant are now in a position

23:01

where they either need

23:03

to spend thousands of dollars if they have it

23:05

to leave their state they need to. Or

23:08

if they cannot do that, they can try

23:10

to still obtain an abortion where they live by self-managing

23:12

their abortion, or they can continue their pregnancy

23:15

if you, if you, we have to

23:17

start with that is the option

23:19

that is the scenario here, right?

23:22

And for some states where abortion is

23:24

banned, we're talking about traveling

23:27

hundreds of miles, right?

23:30

Thinking about, think about living in the middle of Texas, the

23:32

middle of Mississippi states, where

23:34

every other single state around you

23:36

has also banned abortion , right ? This

23:38

isn't about going over to the next state

23:41

or crossing a state line . This is traveling

23:43

across multiple states , right ? That

23:46

takes number one and

23:48

foremost time and money, right?

23:50

In this country we have a network of abortion

23:53

funds and practical support networks that

23:55

are doing unfathomably

24:00

effective and heroic work , connecting people to resources

24:02

to be able to travel. And in fact,

24:05

I've been doing that for a few

24:07

dozen years. Obviously they've

24:09

had to , um, scale up. And

24:12

so their existence has maybe

24:14

mitigated the impact for some people . But,

24:17

you know, we're talking about the entire

24:19

population of entire states having no abortion

24:21

access. They're not going to be able to meet the needs of

24:24

every single person. So that's

24:26

the scenario. Then we can talk about the inequitable

24:28

effects , right? Who is gonna be able to

24:30

still get an abortion in those scenarios? We're

24:33

talking about people who have the

24:35

most amount of resources, right? A

24:37

lot of, you know, high incomes and

24:40

not just a high income . Many people with , with

24:42

jobs are still living paycheck to paycheck,

24:44

right? We're talking about having access

24:47

to the types of resources

24:49

, um, that really only the most resource

24:51

resource people have. We're talking about credit cards , we're

24:54

talking about savings accounts , we're talking about people

24:56

in your life that can also have access

24:59

to that kind money and lend it to you . We're

25:01

talking about time , right ? If you live

25:03

in Texas and you have to go across two or

25:05

three states, we may be talking about

25:09

two days, three days, four days a

25:11

week, two weeks where your life

25:13

is on hold cause you have to travel, stay

25:15

overnight somewhere. And then what? Find

25:17

someone to keep your kids , right? The

25:20

alternative in , in a world where abortion

25:22

is a normal part of everyday

25:25

healthcare is maybe you have an appointment for

25:27

an abortion, you need a babysitter to watch your

25:29

kids for an afternoon. That's

25:31

appropriate. We're talking about finding

25:34

someone to watch your kids for a

25:36

week. There are very few people in

25:39

this country who have somebody in their life who can drop

25:41

everything and watch their kids for a week , right ? We're talking

25:43

about an extraordinary amount of resources that it

25:46

takes. So right there, the inequitable

25:48

effect is that really, you know, wealthy

25:50

people are gonna be able to still get abortions

25:52

, you know , and , um, people

25:55

are living paycheck , struggling

25:58

to make ends meet , or frankly are

26:00

just regular middle class people at

26:03

this point , right ? We're

26:05

talking potentially thousands of dollars . So

26:07

we're already talking about the difference between someone

26:09

being able to get a ti timely abortion

26:11

care and someone who's gonna be severely

26:14

delayed, therefore have to have an abortion

26:16

later , which then costs more money. And

26:18

even though abortion is incredibly safe, safer

26:21

than childbirth at any stage, still

26:23

being delayed in having an abortion is

26:26

not high quality care. There's still

26:28

added risk the further along you are . And

26:30

frankly, why do we live in a place where people are

26:33

forced to become , be pregnant longer than they have to

26:35

? Right ? And then the question is not just

26:37

around who has money, but

26:40

what are the , what are the social , you

26:42

know , identities, the systems of

26:44

oppression along which that money is distributed.

26:47

It's a long race class

26:49

, um, age. So

26:51

young people might , you know, people who

26:54

are under 18 and , um,

26:56

people living with disabilities, immigrants,

26:58

people who are already living in a world

27:00

where they're not being paid, what they, what

27:02

they're worth for their work , um, who find

27:05

discrimination in the healthcare system on

27:07

the day-to-day basis anyway, and

27:09

may have fewer resources to be able to connect

27:11

up to the types of transportation appointments

27:14

that it takes to get that appointment , right ? And so

27:17

what we're gonna see is , and I , for , for anyone

27:20

listening already , is working in abortion funding

27:23

who's already working in reproductive health in these states, you're

27:25

already seeing it, right? People for whom

27:28

even before Roe abortion

27:30

was difficult to obtain are gonna be even more

27:32

delayed and more people are gonna

27:34

be forced to continue their pregnancies. And

27:37

for people for whom before Roe

27:39

was overturned, they were barely

27:42

able to get the abortion they needed.

27:44

Now it's gonna be outta reach, right?

27:46

So there's more people for whom this is

27:49

gonna be a problem. And you

27:51

know, we , uh, this might be something that you

27:53

might get at in your next question , but, you

27:55

know, what does that mean for somebody for whom now abortion

27:58

is simply outta reach. The resources aren't there, the money's

28:00

not there. The social support is not there.

28:02

The time off of work someone keeping your kids, what

28:05

are their options? Their options are that

28:07

they'll be forced to continue a pregnancy that they

28:09

don't want, that they've made the decision is

28:11

not the right choice for them at this time. Or

28:14

they might think about self-managing their abortion.

28:17

And in most states, technically

28:20

self-managing an abortion is not illegal

28:22

. It's very safe to self-manage

28:24

an abortion with Mistol or with myth persona

28:27

mistol . But as people

28:29

who, if the pe if people who are choosing to

28:32

self-manage their abortion are also people are doing

28:34

so , cause they don't have the incredible

28:36

amount of resources it takes to leave their state,

28:38

they may be more likely to be targeted

28:41

for involvement with law enforcement because

28:45

they don't have as many resources to deal

28:47

with law enforcement, right? So it's a perpetuating

28:49

cycle where we really are

28:52

having two worlds for abortion.

28:54

I mean, it's always been that way in the United States, and now it's

28:56

even worse.

28:56

Yeah. It just feels like it's magnified

28:59

by so many degrees where it's just so

29:01

much starker that I

29:03

think, you know, if you worked in repro

29:06

or worked in abortion like it , they were

29:08

inequities. You saw and knew and

29:10

understood. And now it's just like on

29:12

such a larger scale that it feels

29:14

like, like the broader world

29:17

is starting to pay more attention than

29:20

they were before when it was

29:22

just like a , a , a repro

29:24

conversation. Now it feels like

29:27

it's getting bigger. Or maybe that's

29:29

my bubble of, I'm like in all the

29:31

repro threads and streams and, and

29:33

whatever, but it feels like it's getting talked

29:35

about in a different way, which

29:37

is just like a great kudos

29:39

to like all the repro justice advocates who

29:42

have been doing the work to make

29:44

those

29:44

Stories better . Oh , I , I completely agree. I

29:46

mean, there's two sides to that. And the one side

29:48

that you're , that you're talking about is for

29:51

people who, for whom it , you

29:53

know, Dobbs maybe sounded

29:55

the alarm in a way that , you

29:57

know, all the decades of , of attacks

30:00

on abortion before didn't. It's

30:02

really reproductive justice organizers and

30:05

advocates who have been doing these

30:07

decades of work, so that when those people,

30:10

for for whom June,

30:12

2022 was like the , you know , oh

30:14

crap moment that when they went to go

30:17

look for stories, resources for understanding

30:19

of the issue , those materials

30:22

and resources and , and narratives were there. That's

30:25

invaluable and incredibly , um,

30:27

important, right? And that's organizing, right? Meet

30:29

people where they're at and then bring them in as

30:32

you can and cause of the re the

30:34

justice movement, we , we've been able to do

30:36

that . I will say though , on the sort

30:38

of , to try to understand how we got here

30:41

a little bit, is that

30:43

that sort of incremental worsening,

30:46

I guess that you talked about, it's on purpose, right?

30:49

We go back to the HA amendment,

30:51

which is famously talked about really

30:54

as the first, you know , post row abortion

30:56

restriction . The HA amendment is added every

30:58

single year into the US budget. Um,

31:02

and it's a bipartisan, it was a

31:04

bipartisan effort up until Joe

31:06

Joe Biden ran for president, right?

31:09

Everyone agreed that that was gonna be the status quo. That

31:11

we were gonna have a national law saying that

31:13

people who are entitled to Medicaid,

31:16

whose health insurance is Medicaid, can't

31:18

use their health insurance to

31:20

cover abortion, right ? So abortions are

31:23

right under the constitution, but

31:26

it doesn't have to be realized, right? Because we're

31:28

taking away your health insurance from you. My

31:31

colleague Heather Boster wrote

31:33

about this over a dozen

31:35

years ago in an article where she highlights

31:38

how we get to a place where all of a

31:40

sudden people who didn't think

31:42

that abortion was their issue are

31:45

really alarmed because their rights are being threatened, right?

31:47

Abortions now abandoned their state. Well, Henry

31:49

Hyde said when he proposed his amendment that

31:52

he would like if he could for , to stop anybody

31:54

from having an abortion, but unfortunately, or

31:58

fortunately , targeting poor women through the was

32:00

, was the only vehicle that he had the moment

32:02

, right? The very first abortion restriction

32:06

at , at post row was

32:08

targeting people who had

32:10

the least amount of resources and the least amount of political

32:13

capital to fight for their rights

32:15

. And every single abortion

32:17

restriction since then has followed that same path , right

32:20

? Until the

32:22

antis have built the political will

32:26

among elected officials to

32:29

make it seem reasonable to then just go for

32:31

the whole thing. Right? Thinking about,

32:33

you know, Indiana, the first state to

32:35

pass an abortion ban after Dobbs

32:38

, um, their, their Supreme Court heard arguments

32:40

, uh, a few days ago about

32:43

whether or not, you know, abortion was

32:45

protected by the constitution. That

32:47

didn't happen overnight. Abortion , uh,

32:49

Indiana has been , um, drastically

32:52

, severely advancing multiple

32:54

abortion restrictions that are medically

32:57

and necessary and completely for decades,

32:59

right? And each one seems

33:01

a little bit reasonable because it kinda is like, oh,

33:04

we don't want , we don't want taxpayer funding for abortion,

33:06

we don't want abortion that's too far along

33:08

in pregnancy . We don't want like young people to

33:11

get an abortion . All of these

33:13

carve outs that make

33:15

it palatable for people to accept . And

33:19

the ultimate one that we're seeing now

33:21

is these exceptions to abortion

33:23

bans that in the United States , um,

33:26

I wanna acknowledge that exceptions to abortions

33:30

have two sides, right? In Latin America , we've seen

33:32

these exceptions be used to advance abortion rights

33:34

. So in countries where abortion was completely banned,

33:38

introducing exceptions to bands like life

33:40

and , um, health of the health

33:42

of the pregnant person have actually been tools

33:45

to expand abortion rights. But in the United

33:47

States, it's the opposite. Abor exceptions

33:49

to , in abortion bans like life , health

33:52

of the mother, and all of those sorts of things , um,

33:54

are used to make abortions politically

33:56

palatable. And we have no evidence that they're

33:59

used in real life, right? The New York Times wrote

34:01

about this last week, but there's

34:03

been, you know, articles about this , um,

34:06

for a couple of decades that what it takes

34:08

to actually get your abortion covered by

34:10

your Medicaid if you've been raped , what it actually

34:13

takes to get an abortion if your life is in danger in

34:16

practice , is , um, nothing

34:19

short of heroic and many times

34:21

impossible. And so this idea

34:23

that now people are becoming more aware that

34:26

abortion is, is is funda, like

34:28

a bans on abortion, fundamentally put at risk

34:31

the health and life of pregnant people and

34:33

really place into question anybody's right in

34:36

this country to be able to care

34:38

for themselves in the way that they is best

34:40

. Um , is , has been possible

34:42

and predicated on the

34:45

idea that for some people

34:47

in some circumstances, it's

34:49

not as important for them to be able to decide to get an

34:51

abortion.

34:52

I think the other tool they were really effective

34:54

at for a really long time was introducing

34:57

a what was a wild

34:59

way out their ban , which is

35:02

now our reality, but like, whatever, like , like

35:04

the, he , the , so quote unquote heartbeat

35:06

bands, the, the like six week bans

35:08

and like outrage would

35:11

come in from all quarters and

35:13

they would not, they'd be like, okay, we didn't pass

35:15

that bill and then quietly slip through a

35:17

20 week ban or a 72

35:20

hour waiting period. And then you wouldn't

35:22

really hear much about that because they didn't do

35:24

the like wild out there one, they,

35:27

they did like the reasonable.

35:29

That is absolutely the , the , the

35:31

story. I mean for, you know, some

35:33

of my colleagues worked on, you

35:36

know, some of the, the early the heartbeat

35:38

bills from like 10, 12 years ago,

35:40

and at the time they were framed as

35:42

sort of being completely absurd that even

35:45

the , even the antis could agree on it cause

35:47

they were right . No , they didn't, they didn't agree

35:49

on it . That was sort of right, the

35:51

right flank strategy. Then introducing a

35:54

20 week band seemed pretty reasonable,

35:56

right? And one thing

35:58

I'll highlight is that a

36:01

vision for what it means to

36:03

be able as a person who

36:05

could become pregnant to really decide, you

36:08

know, if I wanna be pregnant , um,

36:10

if I wanna continue my pregnancy, if I wanna parent

36:12

, um, really centers my

36:15

health and wellbeing, the health and wellbeing of people

36:17

who could become pregnant. The only

36:19

way to get there is through a

36:22

reproductive justice practice and

36:24

framework and understanding of the world , right?

36:28

Because from a reproductive justice perspective,

36:31

none of this is reasonable, right? Both

36:34

because two things. One, if

36:37

we understand that

36:39

power is central

36:41

to what it means to

36:43

restrict control coerce and

36:46

decide whether or not to become pregnant,

36:48

you know, how I wanna move through this world and my

36:50

gender , that that's about power

36:54

at the social level, right? It's about maintaining

36:58

supremacy in the patriarchy. If you

37:00

fundamentally understand that

37:03

reproductive coercion and restrictions

37:06

are in service of

37:09

that, then there is no reasonable

37:12

ban , there is no reasonable carve

37:14

out because they all serve the same purpose, right?

37:16

Which is to advance

37:19

oppression and take away the dignity and humanity

37:21

of people who aren't white

37:23

men, frankly. Right? If

37:25

you wanna debate abortion on

37:28

these intangible terms,

37:31

you know, that frankly are, should

37:34

not be legal issues, right? Whether, how

37:36

comfortable people are with abortion, whether they think

37:38

it's right or wrong, people have many diverse

37:41

views on that. Uh, but when we're

37:43

talking about what should be the law, like what are

37:45

we gonna punish people for? What are

37:47

we gonna allow people to

37:50

be in community, build the families that they want?

37:53

Um, none of that really comes into play because

37:56

the data are there and people's lived experiences

37:58

speak for themselves. But

38:01

the debate, I don't even know if it's a debate,

38:03

I'm a scientist, but, you know, the

38:06

, um, justifications I will say

38:08

upon which we got to

38:11

Dobbs have fundamentally left out

38:13

the human beings whose lives

38:15

are at stake. And in fact, anyone wants

38:17

to go back and look at the arguments and the

38:20

Dobbs decision, the amount

38:22

of time spent talking about,

38:25

yeah , the desires, health, safety , um,

38:28

humanity of pregnant people

38:31

is minuscule, almost none, except

38:33

for when Amy Coney Barrett talked

38:35

about how safe haven laws take

38:38

away the burden of parenting was

38:40

really such an impoverished conversation

38:43

when we think about what it means

38:46

to be a pregnant person in this country, especially if

38:48

you're black, brown or an immigrant. Okay

38:50

?

38:51

That's all really, really heavy and

38:53

it's all really heavy right now.

38:55

So maybe let's talk a little bit about some

38:58

of the things that have been happening to protect

39:00

abortion access post row . Because

39:02

there are, I mean, again, everything

39:05

is terrible and it feels really terrible,

39:07

but there are some like little bright

39:09

, uh, bright might be a har uh , big

39:11

word. There are a little spots of light

39:14

of things being done.

39:15

Yeah. Things are heavy.

39:18

Cause banning abortion is completely

39:21

retrograde, but Ill

39:23

put into context is that was the

39:25

plan all along, right? The

39:28

movement to decimate abortion access

39:31

has always planned to ban abortion and

39:33

they plan to keep doing it. Even they wanna

39:36

introduce a national auto abortion. So

39:38

yeah , while grim, this is something

39:40

that has been well documented and

39:42

that's their goal. You know, something

39:45

that will help us continue

39:47

to organize, continue to move towards

39:49

justice, continue to lead

39:51

with love and human dignity, is

39:54

knowing that that's actually their goal. And

39:56

there is no common ground except

39:59

, uh, at all. There's no common ground,

40:01

right? That the goal is to ban abortion completely.

40:03

It to the extent of putting people in jail. So

40:06

if you accept that that's the case and

40:08

that they will not stop until we get there, then

40:11

we can back out and say, you know,

40:13

where are we really building

40:15

the communities and

40:18

the , um, the political will , the

40:20

understanding that doesn't

40:23

allow that to happen, right? That's how I feel

40:25

about it . And we have so many great examples.

40:27

First of all , many state governments

40:30

and governors and legislatures have stepped

40:32

up again because

40:35

for the , in the decades before Dobbs

40:37

came along , um, organizers

40:40

at the state level have been talking about

40:42

protecting abortion rights in their state constitution

40:44

for a very long time, right?

40:46

This wasn't just a brilliant idea that popped up cause

40:49

of Dobbs people have been doing this , people have been , have

40:51

been writing these bills and trying to interest them for a

40:53

very long time . And we've seen so many

40:55

states now , um, really

40:58

step up and protect abortion rights at the constitutional

41:00

level. I don't even think I know what

41:02

they all are. Certainly we're

41:05

talking about , um, Connecticut, New

41:07

York , um, Illinois, Oregon,

41:09

and even in some of those states like New York , people

41:12

are saying , okay , that first go around was great. We

41:14

can take it further , right ? We can really , you

41:17

know , revisit even the protections we

41:19

have and make them even stronger for

41:21

people at the state level who are organizing around these things

41:23

. Minnesota, they brought a , a

41:26

case to their Supreme Court. Every single abortion

41:28

restriction was overturned because the judge said , this is

41:31

not , this is not protected in our constitution. And

41:33

now they're trying to codify by introducing , um,

41:36

an actual law. And this

41:38

is incredible and super important.

41:41

I also wanna highlight that like people

41:44

are protecting reproductive health

41:46

rights and justice at the community , even at the community

41:49

level , right? We've seen states including , uh,

41:51

we've seen cities and counties including in Texas,

41:54

say, okay , in , in this town

41:56

we are going to carve out a , a

41:58

budget for people to be able to access abortion,

42:00

whether it be for transportation or an abortion

42:03

fund . And then something that I , you

42:05

know, have been thinking about for a long time , and I

42:07

wrote a paper with some colleagues from from

42:09

U C S F about this , is that abortion

42:13

is healthcare . Yes. We, we, we

42:15

know that abortion is central true act of justice, but

42:19

abortion is also central to public health, right?

42:21

I'm a trained public health scientist and professional

42:23

, um, and the idea that

42:26

abortion is not considered a central public

42:29

health service is not based

42:31

in evidence. And, you know, we advocated that

42:33

departments of health should be providing abortion care

42:35

just like they provide STI testing

42:38

and treatment in many places. And some,

42:40

you know, pregnancy testing, you know,

42:42

in some cases prenatal care. And in

42:44

fact , public health started out with

42:46

helping pregnant women, you know , over a

42:48

hundred years ago in this country. And

42:51

now we see that New York City Department

42:53

of Health and Mental Hygiene has started providing

42:55

medication abortion for free as

42:58

part of their services. And

43:01

that's amazing. Um, I

43:03

think they should be, that should be

43:05

considered pioneering leader

43:08

that other departments of health can look to

43:10

, to be able to ensure that they're

43:12

delivering the full spectrum of

43:14

public health services, but they're a leader

43:16

in the fact that they actually did it. The , the

43:18

sort of the evidence and the framework for

43:20

saying, you know, should public health departments be providing

43:23

abortion has been there for a very long time . So

43:26

all that is is really exciting . And

43:28

I think , you know , for people who are feeling like , geez

43:31

, you know , I I

43:34

can't influence the Supreme Court, right? Can

43:36

, you can't , can you really even influence the Supreme Court

43:38

in your state? You know, except for potentially, you

43:41

know, signing some things, but

43:43

as an individual it can feel very overwhelming, but

43:48

it's very likely that in your community , people

43:50

are thinking of really creative ways that

43:52

center the humanity of pregnant people to

43:55

be able to ensure that abortion access is there

43:57

to the extent possible.

43:59

And then just as a Wisconsin

44:01

night , I will throw in, there is a Supreme

44:04

Court justice election in Wisconsin in

44:06

April. So there is something you can do and you can still

44:08

, that's amazing. So make sure to vote in

44:10

April for , uh, Supreme Court Justice,

44:12

which in Wisconsin is huge

44:15

for abortion access right now. So

44:17

make sure you are , there are still opportunities to

44:19

make. That's incredible. I can't remember the exact date

44:21

though, so sorry

44:22

Y'all, well, you can put it, put it on the website. Yeah,

44:24

I mean, yeah , I just read that. Um,

44:27

not to par , this is not

44:29

me parroting , you know, a very

44:31

, um, soulless talking

44:33

point of the Biden administration, right? Like

44:36

obviously , um, what politicians

44:38

decide to do about abortion access is not

44:40

my expertise. I'm a researcher. I evaluate the policies

44:43

and people's experiences with abortion , but

44:45

one thing I've noticed just as a citizen is that

44:48

cause of where we're at , people are

44:51

running on this platform, you know, in

44:53

Indiana, a place like we just said, where

44:55

the very right to an abortion is

44:58

in play is, you know, people

45:00

are jumping in their race or senator

45:03

and they're talking about abortion as central

45:06

to what their vision is for the

45:08

state. And so for better

45:10

or for worse, depending on how empowered people

45:13

feel voting is actually gonna

45:15

matter , um, in your communities. And

45:17

that Wisconsin is an important example.

45:19

Okay , well, I could absolutely talk to you forever, and

45:22

this has been really fascinating. We

45:24

should probably wrap it up so I can

45:26

be cognizant of your time, but we

45:28

always like to ask what can our audience do?

45:31

We talked about one , you can vote in Wisconsin still,

45:33

but what , what can our audience do right

45:35

now?

45:36

I say this every single time cause

45:38

it's so immediate and so tangible is

45:41

you can donate to an abortion fund , abortion

45:44

funds , uh, and practical support ne networks,

45:46

which are organizations that

45:48

help arrange people's transportation

45:52

are really making

45:54

abortion access real in this country right

45:56

now, really real and amazing

45:59

things are happening because the reproductive justice

46:02

movement in particular has

46:04

never faltered from its vision. And

46:06

then you have like institute, which

46:09

can bring the data and the facts if you , you

46:12

need them and you know, people do need

46:14

them, but there's

46:16

the sort of the bigger picture of

46:18

like, what's the 10, 20, 30 or 100

46:21

year vision? It's abortion access

46:23

for anyone who needs it, you know, and it's timely

46:26

manner for free ideally. But

46:29

we know that today , literally today,

46:31

somebody is struggling to access abortion care because

46:34

abortion is banned in their state. Um, or

46:36

there's tremendous restrictions. And

46:39

every single time you donate to an abortion fund

46:41

, you're making abortion access real for somebody . So

46:44

you can go to org

46:47

and you can actually just search your , you

46:49

can donate to an abortion fund where you live . You

46:51

can donate to an abortion fund, you

46:53

know where your best friend lives, if they live in another state,

46:56

you can donate in their name. It's really

46:58

, um, a , a really important

47:00

way for people to

47:03

come together and help each other, right? It's,

47:05

it's , it's mutual aid . It's not charity. It's

47:08

really building power around,

47:11

around abortion access .

47:12

Yes . And a lot of abortion funds have a really

47:14

amazing mer you can buy. Um

47:16

, I'm actually wearing one right now from,

47:19

I can't remember where, sorry, y'all,

47:21

I think it's from maybe the T fund in Texas.

47:24

I feel like, don't quote me on that.

47:26

Merch is amazing, but it , you

47:28

know, know if you have a t-shirt or

47:30

a fanny pack or a mug. You're

47:33

also taking part in shifting

47:36

the culture around abortion

47:39

and saying the word abortion, the

47:42

idea that abortion is sort of should

47:44

be rare or that it's an unfortunate

47:47

thing that's necessary. SA saying

47:49

that you're pro-choice, you're celebrating Roe without

47:51

talking about abortion. You know, I

47:54

think that that the , um,

47:58

analysis that a lot of reproductive justice advocates

48:00

have brought around why that's problematic

48:03

deserves to be really heard

48:05

out, right? Certainly, you

48:07

know , I'm not a coms professional. We can tailor our

48:09

messages to people so we can meet them where they're at, try

48:12

to understand what about this issue matters to them,

48:14

but avoiding , um,

48:17

the term for that reason when

48:20

really what we can be doing is normalizing

48:22

abortion, right? You know, at Group institute,

48:24

my colleague Rachel Jones , who's the principal

48:27

investigator of a lot of our abortion

48:29

work, you know, she's

48:31

, um, updated these, this for these

48:33

data for a long time. One in four

48:36

women in this country will have an abortion in

48:38

their lifetime . And we say women because we use census

48:40

data , but it's a proxy for anyone who could

48:43

become pregnant . Abortion is super normal

48:45

, right ? 60% of people having abortions

48:48

are already have already given birth. And

48:50

for many people , um,

48:52

their experience with abortion and their story is

48:55

a super important part of, you

48:57

know, how they come, how they came to become

48:59

a parent, how they came to understand what their

49:01

values are, how they relate to their partner and their

49:04

families . And I just really think like

49:06

when you buy abortion, you're drinking outta your abortion

49:09

mug. You're wearing your abortion shirt,

49:12

you're , um, deciding what

49:15

you want the culture and values to

49:17

be where you live among the

49:19

people that you care about , um, and

49:22

in the country that you live in , which is that abortion

49:25

is a , is a really important and

49:27

in many ways wonderful part of being able to

49:30

take care of ourselves.

49:31

Well , that is the perfect place to stop. Uh,

49:34

Lizza , thank you so much for being here today. I had

49:36

so much fun talking to you about, really

49:39

important but terrible topics,

49:41

<laugh> . That's a good way to put it. Well, thank you so

49:43

much for having me, Jenny . And

49:45

I know I talked a

49:47

lot, but there's just so much really, there's

49:50

so many important ways to relate and think about

49:53

abortion beyond, you know, just the headlines.

49:55

And I really appreciate you giving us a chance to,

49:57

to go there.

49:59

Okay , y'all , I hope you enjoyed my conversation

50:01

with Liza. I had a wonderful time talking to

50:03

her. I could have talked to her for hours. It

50:06

was so wonderful. Um, let's

50:09

see if you have any questions or

50:12

if you have a topic you'd like us to cover,

50:14

always feel free to reach out. You can

50:16

find us on social media at

50:19

repro, fight back on Facebook and Twitter

50:21

or repro fb on Instagram.

50:24

Or you can always shoot me an email , um,

50:26

at , at jenny j e n n i

50:28

e repro fightback.com

50:31

. Anytime . I'm always happy

50:33

to take questions , uh, always appreciative

50:35

of any feedback. And

50:37

with that, I will see you all in

50:39

two weeks. Bye. For

50:45

more information including show notes from

50:48

this episode and previous episodes, please

50:50

visit us at our [email protected].

50:54

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50:56

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50:58

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51:01

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51:05

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51:08

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