0:04

Welcome to repo's fight back a

0:07

podcast where we explore all things, reproductive,

0:09

health, rights, and justice. I'm

0:11

your host, Jenny wetter. And I'll

0:14

be helping you stay informed around issues like

0:16

birth control, abortion, sex,

0:18

education, and LGBTQ

0:20

issues, and much, much more giving

0:23

you the tools you need to take action

0:25

and fight back. Okay. Let's dive

0:27

in. Hi

0:30

re roses . How's everybody doing? I'm

0:32

your host, Jenny wetter and my pronouns.

0:35

Are she her? So

0:37

before we get into this episode,

0:39

I just wanna flag. I recorded this the

0:41

day before the

0:44

SCOTUS decision came out. So Katie and

0:46

I do not talk about obviously the

0:48

fall of Roe in this conversation because

0:50

it hadn't happened yet. We talk

0:52

around it. So like, don't think it it's

0:55

irrelevant. Now we , we talk

0:57

a lot about it. Just, it

0:59

hadn't actually been announced. So

1:02

there's, you know, we

1:04

, we don't discuss the decision itself. I

1:07

, uh , it is been

1:11

a long stretch, right? I, I'm

1:15

still really sad and

1:17

really angry. I'm

1:20

still working through all of my feelings. I

1:22

took the weekend to try

1:25

and revive and recover

1:28

and, and , uh, feel

1:32

all the feelings, right. It's

1:34

a lot y'all and, and just

1:36

know again, that this is a

1:39

marathon and not a sprint it's

1:41

really now more important

1:43

than ever that we are taking

1:45

care of ourselves and each other check

1:48

in on your friends, in the movement. It's

1:52

exhausting. And so it's

1:54

okay to take a step back and check

1:57

out for a little while. It's okay. You

2:00

can't do it all all the time. Like

2:02

we can't, we are not made that way. We

2:05

need to take

2:07

a step back and recharge and step

2:09

back in when you can. And, and

2:12

I think that's what we're gonna be needing to do a

2:14

lot of right now. I think I'm

2:16

gonna keep my intro pretty short , Katie and I had kind

2:18

of a long conversation. So I

2:21

, I might just stop there and just,

2:24

just say, take care , take

2:26

care of each other and take care of yourself. And

2:30

with that, let's turn to my interview with

2:33

Katie y'all. I

2:35

am so excited for this conversation. Katie

2:37

is just, she's a friend. She

2:40

is just, she's

2:42

amazing. Y'all she's just utterly amazing.

2:46

I am always a

2:48

bit in awe of her. She

2:50

just has this amazing way of

2:52

talking about these issues with so much heart

2:54

and love. And every

2:58

time I just sit back and listen in

3:00

awe, because she's just pretty

3:03

freaking amazing. So Reverend

3:06

Katie Z is the

3:08

executive director of the religious

3:10

coalition for reproductive choice. She's also

3:13

a pastor. She has

3:15

also written two books and

3:18

she hosts her own podcast. When

3:20

I say this woman is talented, she

3:22

is really freaking talented. Look at all this stuff

3:24

she has done. She is amazing. I

3:27

am just so grateful. She took time to

3:30

talk to me, to talk to us

3:32

all, and I hope you enjoy the

3:34

conversation. Hi

3:37

Katie . Thank you so much for being here. Hi,

3:40

Jenny . It's so good to be back. I'm excited. I'm

3:43

excited to talk to you too, I guess before

3:45

we get started, do you wanna take a quick second

3:47

and introduce yourself ? Absolutely.

3:51

I'm Reverend Katie Z . I'm the CEO

3:53

of the religious coalition for reproductive choice

3:56

or RCRC. And I just

3:58

published my second book, a complicated

4:00

choice, making space for grief and

4:02

healing in the pro-choice movement. I'm

4:06

so excited to talk to you about a number

4:08

of things, one of them being your book,

4:11

but I kinda thought like in this moment, first

4:13

of all, I think we need to flag. We

4:16

are recording this on Thursday,

4:20

June 23rd . So Roe has not been like

4:23

the Dobbs decision has not come out yet . It

4:25

may come out in between when we've recorded and when

4:28

this comes out next Tuesday, but just

4:31

feels like a useful flag to put down.

4:34

But one of the things I have

4:36

seen you speak really eloquently about

4:38

is burnout. There's a lot going

4:41

on right now and we're

4:43

all feeling it . And I thought I would just give

4:46

you some space to talk about it . Cause I think it's so important

4:48

that we address it

4:51

because if we don't address it, it's just gonna keep getting worse,

4:54

such an important conversation. And

4:56

I'm certain, this will resonate

4:59

with a lot of listeners who work

5:01

in this space or really just being a human being

5:03

right now is difficult. I

5:06

can speak a little bit about my own journey, which

5:09

was the day that SBA in

5:11

Texas happened. I recognized

5:13

within myself that I

5:15

did not have an emotional reaction to

5:17

it. I just felt completely

5:19

numbed out. And it really took

5:22

me by surprise because I'd never experienced

5:25

that kind of a reaction to something so

5:28

huge and horrifying. And

5:30

I thought, well, that's weird. Let me just

5:32

sit with that. And I would try to write about it

5:35

or talk about it. And it was almost like

5:37

I didn't have anything to say, which

5:39

as a writer is really difficult

5:41

because normally words are my go-to for

5:44

processing things. And I just, I didn't

5:46

have anything left. And

5:48

I was in therapy one day. I have an

5:50

amazing therapist and I was articulating

5:53

to her how I was feeling about

5:55

it. And she said, Katie , you're

5:57

you have burnout big time and

5:59

you need to take time off. And I don't

6:01

mean a couple of days. You need to take significant

6:04

time off. This was

6:06

October of last year or

6:08

maybe September. Yeah, this was September of last

6:10

year, cuz that's when SBA came down. And

6:13

uh , my first reaction of course was I can't do

6:15

that. I can't take time off right now.

6:18

There's so much going on. We've

6:20

got everything going

6:22

on, all the excuses that, that we can come up

6:24

with for not doing it, but the more I sat with

6:26

it and the more I talked about it with

6:28

my team, I realized I really did need

6:31

to do that for, for my own sake.

6:33

And so I took three weeks

6:35

off in October and that

6:37

was probably just enough time for

6:39

me to realize how burned out I was. And,

6:42

and so as someone who, you know, needs a

6:44

job needs to be employed. I'm the

6:46

breadwinner for my family right now, which I'm honored

6:49

to do. I've had to figure out ways

6:51

to cultivate

6:53

more of a sustainable approach

6:57

to this work. And you've

6:59

been doing this work for a long time. Jenny, as have

7:01

I been engaged in the repro

7:03

movement since my early twenties, I'm almost , I just turned

7:06

39 . So it's over 15 years now. It's a long time

7:09

to be in this work, especially when, when it's

7:11

so difficult. And so just

7:13

remembering for me that I'm, I am one

7:15

person. I do have a unique role to play. I

7:18

know that I'm supposed to be in this work. I very

7:20

much feel it's my calling and

7:22

it's not just on me and it's gonna

7:24

, the work is gonna continue

7:26

after my lifetime . I'm very confident of that . As

7:29

much as I wish we could solve this in,

7:32

in our lifetime, I , I just don't think that that's the

7:34

case. And so making sure that I

7:36

can do this work with in

7:38

the way that I want to, from

7:40

a place of hope and joy and

7:43

enjoying my life. I think that that's really

7:45

essential. We don't talk enough about how to

7:48

do that. And so I know for me what

7:50

I've tried to cultivate in my organization

7:53

and with my team really during the pandemic,

7:55

starting with the pandemic is just your

7:57

wellbeing is the most important thing. It's

8:00

more important than any of the work that we do. And

8:02

I really try to make that the value

8:04

of how we do our work and applying

8:06

it to myself is the most challenging thing. But

8:08

I'm learning, I'm learning to do it.

8:10

Oh, I feel that so

8:13

much. Like I'm so good about

8:16

talking to my colleagues about like,

8:18

no, like you need to step back like

8:20

take the time, but like actually

8:23

doing it on my, like taking my own

8:25

advice. I'm terrible at it. And

8:28

it is a discipline. It's not easy

8:31

rest taking a break, caring

8:34

for ourselves that is discipline,

8:36

it's work, it's labor. And

8:39

sometimes it gives us the space to

8:41

deal with the things that we don't wanna deal with. It

8:44

allows the emotions to come up. You know, when I was

8:46

talking about the numb feeling, I think sometimes

8:48

work becomes a coping strategy for not feeling

8:50

what we're feeling. And I know

8:52

a lot of my healing work for myself

8:55

the last few years has really been about getting

8:58

in touch with that hard space . And what is

9:00

it that I'm actually feeling and that work can

9:02

be really, really uncomfortable. So

9:04

I understand it. So if you're listening to

9:06

this, take this as permission

9:08

and an invitation for you to , to

9:11

identify if you're burned out and

9:14

to start looking at what you need to do to

9:16

take care of yourself, easier said than done. I

9:18

really do understand that, but you've

9:20

got a community of people who are cheering you

9:22

on and taking care of yourself. Yeah.

9:25

I, I recognize that numb

9:27

space, like mm-hmm , <affirmative> , it feels like

9:29

when those big decisions or

9:31

things have come down, there

9:34

may be like a small time

9:37

of like the anger or

9:39

the sadness. And then it's just like shove

9:42

it into the box. We have to like move on and

9:45

do the thing. And like that is

9:47

not useful because at some point,

9:49

and I'm sure it , it may be past

9:51

that, like that box can't hold all

9:54

of the things that are getting shoved into it and

9:56

like need to deal with and address and

10:00

yeah . Taking the space to do it. Yeah.

10:03

Cause sometimes what we end up doing is really taking it

10:05

out on each other. And that's not to say that

10:07

there aren't real issues of injustice

10:10

within our movement. I'm sure you've talked about that with lots

10:12

of guests and just with your colleagues

10:14

and at the same time, I think you're right. That what

10:18

we are experiencing is

10:20

a form of trauma. It really is. And

10:22

many of us come into this work traumatized. I

10:24

know that I did. That is in part my motivation

10:26

for why I do it. And so not,

10:30

not dealing with that. And again, it's a lot of work, but

10:32

when we don't, I think it does come out in

10:34

these moments when we just can't take it anymore

10:37

. And we end up doing more harm

10:39

to ourselves and to each other in this

10:41

community. So

10:44

I think this feels like a good chance to shift

10:46

to your book because I think you talk about some

10:49

of that in the book, but mm-hmm <affirmative> it

10:51

was so good. Y'all like, please, please

10:53

check out Katie's book a complicated choice.

10:56

Do we wanna tell us a little bit about it?

10:59

Sure. I like to tell people

11:01

that it's not the book that I proposed to

11:03

write. I was going to write something

11:06

a lot more expansive about reproductive loss

11:09

in which I wanted abortion to be part

11:11

of it. But when I put my proposal together, my

11:13

publisher came back and said, we really want you to

11:15

focus on the complicated

11:18

feelings that people have around their abortion experiences.

11:21

And it's definitely the book I was supposed to write . It

11:23

was the book I was afraid to write because

11:26

writing about abortion is like

11:28

putting a target on your back, which I

11:30

already have from the work that I do. But it just felt

11:32

like I don't know , an even

11:34

larger target, maybe , maybe next level. Yeah.

11:37

Next level, next level. And

11:40

at the same time, it felt like a book that

11:42

needed to be written because at least in

11:45

the books that I've read and the conversations

11:47

that I've had within this space, there

11:49

just, aren't a lot of conversations

11:51

about the fact that people can make

11:54

abortion decisions and have a

11:56

lot of nuanced and complicated feelings about

11:58

it. And it doesn't mean that the decision

12:01

was something that they shouldn't have done. It's just a

12:03

deeply human thing, not for everybody, but

12:05

for, for a lot of people, a lot of people that I've

12:07

talked to in the pro-choice movement have

12:10

told me their abortion stories and said, I don't

12:12

share all of my experience

12:14

with my colleagues because I

12:16

don't want my story to be turned against

12:19

the movement. I don't wanna share that

12:21

I grieved or wish that I could have made a different decision

12:24

if my circumstances have been different. And

12:26

I just thought this is not okay. This

12:28

is not okay that we're not creating space

12:31

for people's full abortion

12:33

experiences, whether they tell them to us or

12:35

not. And that was why I

12:37

wanted to write the book was just

12:39

to offer space for people to really

12:41

show up in their full humanity. It

12:44

is an abortion storytelling book. I'm not someone

12:46

who has experienced abortion in my life. And

12:49

I wanted to center the people who have,

12:52

and what I try to do is tie the

12:54

stories together under some

12:57

common themes, which was difficult because

12:59

there's so much overlap and so many unique

13:01

things about each story, really tying

13:04

the people's individual decision

13:06

making and circumstances to the

13:09

larger systemic issues that we

13:11

know impact people's reproductive flourishing

13:14

in the book. So that's a little bit

13:16

about a complicated choice. I loved

13:18

all of the storytellers who are so generous in

13:21

sharing with me. Some of whom were sharing things for

13:23

the first time publicly, which I really

13:25

take as a, as a sacred honor

13:27

and responsibility. And, you

13:30

know, for context, what I really want

13:32

people to do is to start

13:34

thinking about their own internalized abortion

13:36

stigma. That's a huge part of

13:38

the book is really about the ways

13:40

that just living in this culture,

13:43

in which the anti-abortion movement is so

13:45

insidious and loud, it's

13:47

impossible not to have absorbed at

13:50

least some of their messages around abortion.

13:53

And so my hope is that by listening to

13:55

people's stories that we can start identifying

13:58

the parts within us that maybe

14:00

have some discomfort or UNE or

14:03

questions about abortion and

14:06

start to dismantle that stigma so

14:08

that we can show up for people in a more compassionate

14:10

way. And I think that that's really

14:13

essential work for all of us to be doing right now,

14:15

a lot more is gonna be needed in terms of

14:17

direct service and care for people. And so

14:20

doing that internal work as someone

14:22

who wants to be helpful is so important

14:24

because if we don't, we end up replicating

14:26

harm that we don't intend. This

14:30

book could have been done really poorly,

14:32

right? There are so many ways talking

14:35

about this could have gone wrong.

14:38

And, and I couldn't think of a better person

14:41

to come at this with such compassion

14:44

and love for the stories that it just

14:46

like bleeds through in the book. Like,

14:49

I , I just couldn't imagine somebody else writing this

14:52

book in such a way, like, I think you

14:54

just did an amazing job telling

14:56

the stories and making the points you

14:59

were trying to make . So thank you for that were

15:03

stories that needed to be told. And I think did an amazing , I

15:07

also really enjoyed you talking about dealing

15:09

with abortion St like the internalized

15:12

abortion stigma. I've definitely told, you

15:15

know, my stories about, you know, I grew

15:17

up going to Catholic school. I

15:19

definitely got a lot of that obviously

15:22

through that time. And so, you

15:25

know, dealing with all of those things that

15:28

you , you hear and just take on, even

15:30

if you don't necessarily believe

15:33

them , but like, it , it just you're steeping

15:35

in it. Right? Like it's just everywhere. And

15:38

I thought that was a really good chance to reflect

15:40

on things that I have been doing and

15:43

maybe not framing it that way in my head. Right.

15:45

Like just working through, learning

15:48

more about abortion and

15:51

abortion stories and where I

15:53

feel uncomfortable with things and then dealing

15:55

with it because like, that's me, that's not

15:58

about abortion, right? That's not about people

16:00

who need the care. That's like things that I

16:02

have taken on that are unhelpful

16:05

and like starting to work through them . Yes.

16:10

Very beautifully put. And you were making me so teary

16:12

a minute ago , so thank you for sorry , a minute

16:14

to , no, it was very, it was very sweet and that

16:17

means a lot. I really do feel like I was

16:19

entrusted with this very precious thing. So

16:21

I'm, I'm thankful that it landed

16:24

that way on you and for the storytellers

16:26

themselves to tell me how seen and

16:28

honored they felt . That is the most important

16:31

thing . So thank you . Um , it was an honor to

16:33

do it . And one of the first people I

16:35

spoke with when I started to write the book

16:37

was Renee Bray , Sherman from we. And

16:40

she really helped me in that framing

16:42

around abortion stigma. And of course

16:44

we testify and youth testify storytellers

16:47

are , are throughout the book, very compelling

16:49

storytellers who are wonderfully supported

16:52

in community . It's a beautiful model that

16:54

they have. And

16:57

like you, I didn't grow up in Catholic

16:59

school going on to Catholic school, but

17:01

I did grow up in a conservative evangelical

17:04

community. And I talked about that

17:06

the last time I was on, on the show. And

17:09

even though I don't actually ever remember

17:11

myself being opposed to abortion personally,

17:14

the , that those were not the values that were taught

17:16

to me in my house, my household,

17:19

I definitely had the abortion stigma

17:22

for sure. And I talk about in the

17:24

book, the moment I really realized that was

17:26

when I walked into an abortion clinic for the first

17:28

time to volunteer and was perceived to be a

17:30

patient. And that really bothered

17:32

me because, well, one's just

17:34

not fun to be yelled at and harassed for

17:36

one, but also I didn't really

17:39

wanna be perceived as someone there to have

17:41

an abortion. And I had to figure out why that

17:43

bothered me so much. And it was because

17:45

I had judgements about people who have abortions.

17:48

And I thought that wasn't me. I saw

17:50

people having abortions as separate

17:52

from me. And honestly,

17:54

I've never said it this way, but that's kind of

17:56

the definition of sin. That makes sense to me is

17:58

like the idea that we're separate from each other, because

18:01

we all are interconnected. We are, we

18:03

are in community with each other and what impacts

18:05

one person impacts all of us. And so,

18:08

again, I've never said it that way on any other show,

18:10

but it like that really did feel like the thing that I

18:12

needed to, to really work

18:15

on within myself. And I liken it to

18:17

internalize racism and sexism and all those

18:19

things. It , it is a product of living in

18:21

this culture. It doesn't mean it's our individual fault

18:24

that we have these things, but

18:26

it is our responsibility to address

18:28

them. And when we do that work, we

18:31

free ourselves for one.

18:33

And then we also make ourselves available

18:36

to center. The people who are most impacted

18:38

. Yeah.

18:40

Similar to you. Like, I

18:43

think I had my first encounter

18:45

with like thinking

18:47

through abortion. It was kind

18:49

of put on me versus like

18:51

I had thought it through yet. Uh

18:53

, and I've told the story lots of times, but with

18:57

a girl, I went to school with asking me to go with

18:59

her, to go to Madison, to save babies. And

19:01

like, I hadn't really thought of abortion

19:03

yet. Cuz like, I don't know , we were in

19:05

like fourth or fifth grade. Like we were pretty young

19:08

and like, yeah . So I hadn't like

19:10

thought through anything or even really knew completely

19:13

all the things. So, and so

19:15

when I went home to talk about it, like that's

19:17

when it was like, okay, we need to sit down and have a conversation.

19:20

And like, so I was very lucky

19:23

to be in a house where we

19:25

had a deeper conversation to deal

19:27

with like, okay , you need to think about

19:29

this much bigger. And like here's all the things you

19:31

need to consider when you're thinking about this idea.

19:35

And then they gave me the space to make my own

19:37

decision on if I still wanted to

19:40

go save babies or not. Right. And

19:42

like that, I also found like

19:45

what, like you gave, you're

19:47

giving me the , the autonomy to make that

19:50

decision. Right . Right. Even after

19:52

being like, have you thought it through really

19:55

that's such an interesting parallel . Yeah.

19:58

Uh , which was great. Yes. And I

20:00

mean, as you were talking, I was just thinking, and this

20:02

is kind of taking us on a , a little bit of a tangent,

20:05

but it's related, which is how

20:07

certain faith communities, Christian

20:09

communities in particular really

20:11

do prey

20:14

on the vulnerability of, of

20:16

young people, of children, of,

20:18

of adolescence. And I think about my own

20:20

experience of purity culture,

20:23

right? The idea that to be

20:25

pure is to not have any

20:27

kind of sexual relationship with anyone until you're

20:29

in a heterosexual marriage. Those

20:32

ideas were introduced to me before I

20:34

really had even gone through puberty all of the

20:36

way. And so making commitments

20:38

or decisions about things that I

20:40

really had no context for is

20:43

pretty manipulative. And when

20:46

I think about things like project Rachel , this

20:48

anti-abortion post-abortion

20:51

ministry, again kind of preying on people's

20:54

vulnerabilities who are maybe

20:56

having some feelings about their

20:58

abortions that are difficult and they don't have a

21:00

therapist. Maybe they can't afford one to

21:03

then be told that the reason that they're having those

21:06

emotions is because they did something wrong is

21:08

very manipulative. And when we talk

21:11

about reproductive coercion,

21:13

I think there's also spiritual coercion

21:16

that happens in not respecting people's

21:19

autonomy. And so I'm so glad that what

21:21

was modeled for you as a young person, cuz

21:24

young people have moral agency was,

21:26

you know, we're gonna make sure you have all the information that

21:28

you need to make the decision that feels right to

21:31

you right now. That that is a beautiful

21:33

thing . And I think so few young people have

21:36

that kind of experience within their faith communities

21:38

and within their families and communities. Yeah.

21:42

I didn't realize how rare

21:46

that was until I

21:48

went to college and met some people who were from other

21:50

more conservative faith traditions

21:53

who like were really taught, like, not like

21:55

this is the authority and this is like, you

21:57

don't question things like this is how it is . And

22:00

so after like being around some people like

22:02

that, like it really gave me this

22:04

much deeper appreciation of

22:07

that conversation and like setting me

22:09

up to like think through all the things and question

22:11

it and make my own decisions because

22:14

there were so many people who weren't raised that way and

22:16

like just, this is what

22:18

it is and this is how we think, and we're

22:21

not gonna question it. And that's,

22:24

it was just very different from the way I was raised. So

22:28

many parallels there of just not making

22:30

space for nuance and complexity.

22:33

Yeah . And just using control of, if

22:35

you wanna belong here, then you

22:38

need to subscribe to these values

22:41

and ways of doing things. And that's definitely

22:43

the kind of faith community I was raised in. So

22:47

I really enjoyed that. You talked about stigma because

22:50

when I, I did a couple episodes where I

22:52

had storytellers come on and tell their stories

22:55

and like the through line that came

22:57

through and like, I wanna say all

22:59

the stories, but maybe not all, but for

23:01

sure most was stigma

23:04

and it , it was externalized

23:07

like stigma. They didn't feel for themselves,

23:09

but they felt whether it was protestors

23:12

or community or just

23:15

the level of stigma around abortion.

23:18

And I think your book does a really good job

23:21

of the fuller story's

23:25

realities there , complicated feeling

23:28

around that

23:32

stigma, you about

23:36

your experience of storytellers. That was definitely

23:38

a through line in the conversations

23:40

that I had. I don't know that they named

23:42

it as stigma specifically, but a sense

23:45

of isolation is definitely what

23:47

people felt, which those are related to

23:49

each other because when things are stigmatized, they're

23:51

silenced and people feel

23:54

isolated in those experiences. I

23:56

think part of it too, even people who were

23:59

supportive of their, of their partners or their

24:01

family members going through abortion experiences

24:05

didn't necessarily have a

24:07

framework or language, like

24:09

just didn't know how to accompany

24:12

them supportively. And

24:14

I talk about this in the book too, that there's

24:17

lots of different kinds of grief that people go

24:19

through or losses that people go through. And

24:22

as a culture, especially

24:24

a white culture in particular, we

24:26

don't do a very good job of

24:28

holding space for people's grief

24:31

or emotions. In general. I was just

24:33

talking about this with, I think it was with my husband

24:35

yesterday. Who's a therapist. And how so

24:38

often when people articulate feelings

24:41

that they're having that are negative, you know, we often

24:43

like will say things that are about

24:45

our own discomfort with their difficult

24:47

feelings, because we take ownership of other people's

24:49

feelings and we don't wanna feel that way <laugh> and

24:52

instead what it is , what we really ought to

24:54

be doing is just creating space for people to

24:56

go through those emotions and trusting them that

24:59

they can handle their own emotional

25:02

experiences. And we're just there

25:04

to create space for them to express

25:06

and to feel them and maybe offer support. But

25:09

, but I think that there's something to that

25:11

of just even for the people

25:13

who want to be there for others through

25:16

this, there's a certain amount of,

25:18

of training required. I think,

25:21

because we just are not adept

25:23

at these conversations. We don't talk much about

25:26

abortion in general, obviously you and I talk

25:28

about abortion a lot more than the average person.

25:32

And it's kind of like talking about whiteness for

25:34

the first time as a white person's like, this is really,

25:36

I don't know how to do this. I don't wanna mess it

25:38

up . Well , you're going , it takes

25:41

some practice . And I think all of could

25:43

probably use some practice in how to

25:46

talk with people about their abortion experiences so that

25:48

we can learn how to be supportive in the ways that they need

25:50

. Oh

25:53

man , a couple things really hit me. Uh

25:56

, while you were talking about that. And one is of

25:58

unrelated and talking

26:00

about how uncomfortable people are with feelings

26:04

and like strong feelings.

26:07

It makes me think of the , I

26:10

hate even talking about it , but the Amber heard

26:13

trial and like the jurors coming

26:15

out and being like all of her crying,

26:17

like we were really uncomfortable and like

26:20

made us not trust her . And I just like,

26:25

because you didn't wanna deal with her

26:27

feelings , you were just like , no it's lies. And

26:32

like, just not to

26:34

get into like all of that.

26:37

Cause like it's its own Hmm

26:39

. Thing I can't talk about right now. But

26:42

it just like that, like talking about

26:44

the feelings and like that was the

26:46

part where they were like, no,

26:50

we're not gonna no , oh

26:53

, so much misogyny and internalized

26:56

sexism and patriarchy of the

26:58

only thing that matters is what you

27:00

can say in an intellectual

27:03

way. And if you can't talk about a deeply emotional

27:05

experience in a detached way, then

27:07

what you must be talking about is a lie. Yeah.

27:11

Oh , that is patriarchy right there. <laugh>

27:15

and then the other thing you started to

27:17

bring up was, was whiteness. And

27:19

I have heard you and seeing you

27:21

write very eloquently about

27:24

white supremacy in repro

27:27

and pro-life so

27:30

really talked a lot on indeed.

27:40

I , I think talking specifically about white

27:42

Christian nationalism is so important

27:45

these days when we're talking about, well, really

27:47

anything going on in terms of injustice,

27:49

because it's all connected to that.

27:52

And as someone who is

27:54

an ordained minister, I think it's especially

27:56

important and who identifies as white is really

27:59

important to talk about how all of those things

28:01

are interconnected. And

28:04

I think for, for people to understand

28:06

the history of how we got to this moment,

28:09

white Christian nationalism is all over it

28:11

from the very beginning. And I'm sure you've

28:13

talked on the podcast about the anti-abortion

28:16

movement and it's being intertwined

28:18

with the political agenda of

28:21

the , again, the white Christian nationalist. I'm not

28:23

gonna call em the religious right . Cause that makes them sound like

28:25

they're . But really it's always

28:28

been about racism and sexism

28:30

and classism and Christian

28:34

nationalism from the very beginning. That's why it's been

28:36

so very successful. And

28:39

we know the disproportionate harm that

28:41

these bans and laws do to

28:43

black and indigenous people of color. We

28:46

know, we know that that's true. And so I think as

28:48

a, you know, as a white person in

28:51

a movement that historically has been run

28:53

by white people, it's especially

28:55

important to talk about how

28:58

the whiteness in particular is intertwined

29:01

with, with all of this. I

29:04

remember going to the

29:08

abortion clinic of the doc , Dr . Carhart's clinic

29:11

in Maryland, or when Dr. Carhart was , was

29:13

providing later abortion

29:15

care in Maryland. I went to the first

29:17

day that he was serving there. And I was

29:19

with colleagues from, from the

29:22

religious coalition for reproductive choice . One

29:24

of whom was a black woman and the

29:26

people who were there to protest the clinic were all white

29:28

people. And I can remember

29:31

one of the protestors approaching

29:33

this black woman and talking

29:35

about abortion as black

29:37

genocide. And

29:40

I was infuriated for

29:42

lots of reasons by that. And I did

29:44

not really have the framework at the time. I had not

29:46

done a lot of my own work around

29:49

whiteness, but what I said to this white woman

29:51

was look at everybody, who's here

29:54

on your side. This is the

29:56

whitest group of people I've ever seen. There

29:58

was not a single black person there. And

30:01

I'm not to say that there aren't black folks who

30:03

are involved in the anti-abortion movement because there are,

30:05

but I think the arguments that are made by

30:08

the anti-abortion movement around

30:10

race in particular are so offensive

30:12

because they do not recognize

30:15

the history of reproductive

30:18

coercion and oppression in this country

30:20

of black women in particular. And I'm

30:22

sure you've talked about this book, but killing the black body

30:25

for me by Dorothy Roberts was such

30:27

an essential read

30:29

for me because I did not. I had never

30:31

linked all of these different

30:33

instances in ways that, that

30:36

we, as a country have controlled

30:39

and oppressed the specifically

30:41

the reproduction of black

30:43

folks. And so I think, you

30:45

know, as someone who is a

30:48

white person who white people will listen to,

30:50

I think anytime I have the opportunity to talk

30:52

about like the different ways

30:54

that reproductive oppression has

30:56

shown up historically, and also to lift

30:58

up the amazing work of reproductive justice

31:01

advocates and the black women who created the reproductive

31:03

justice framework and really educate white people

31:05

about what that is, because

31:07

I really do think that's how we are all gonna get

31:09

free. I really do. I really do

31:11

think that that framework and

31:14

the way that it is so comprehensive, it touches

31:16

every single injustice issue that we

31:18

all want to tackle together.

31:21

And so I feel like that's the work in part,

31:23

the work that I can do in the body

31:25

that I have to, you

31:28

know, to help people see that abortion

31:30

access is just one part of

31:32

an agenda. It's also just one part of

31:34

this anti of the white Christian nationalist

31:36

agenda too. Yeah.

31:40

I want fully, yes.

31:42

Killing the black body similar. I

31:45

had like started to pull some of those threads together

31:47

and when I finally read it, it

31:49

was so great to just like, have it all

31:52

like come together in one place

31:55

and cannot recommend it highly enough.

31:58

Honestly, if you're gonna be doing work in this moment , you

32:00

it's really a foundational text that you should

32:02

be reading. Yes . And, and

32:06

thinking of your story, like, I , I

32:08

think of those people who were there and

32:10

, and who are using the, the

32:12

black genocide language. And

32:15

I just, the other thing I think of is

32:17

like, great. So how are

32:19

you supporting the

32:21

black community then? Are you

32:23

out advocating for programs that are

32:26

going to support these people for the programs

32:29

they need? Are you out

32:31

there making sure that Medicaid

32:33

is covering everything? Like, are you

32:36

doing things that are going

32:38

to improve these

32:41

black lives? You're saying you care about

32:43

by fighting this black genocide.

32:47

Yeah . And the generally, no . Right.

32:50

So you can't use , it's

32:53

just all so frustrating. Like

32:56

again, the like going back to

32:58

the reproductive justice of it, right. You

33:00

need to be supporting all of it to,

33:05

because that is, like you said, the only way we're gonna get free

33:08

and like thinking

33:10

through like reproductive justice in the ways it touches

33:12

on so many things. And

33:15

yeah, I , I'm a really firm

33:18

believer in like, we need to be thinking

33:20

about all of the things together in

33:22

order for us to move forward.

33:27

That's absolutely right. And as you were

33:29

describing the protesters

33:31

and , and your ideas of what they do when they're not protesting,

33:34

I mean, we know as people who are in movement

33:36

spaces, that we are often invited to go to protests

33:38

and hold signs. And sometimes we do that and we

33:40

know that that is not the actual work <laugh> , those

33:43

are moments to come together to be in community

33:46

to send a message. But that is not the

33:48

work. The work happens, you know, in

33:50

conversations like this and behind

33:52

the scenes, you know, and I think for

33:55

folks who think that's showing up and just

33:57

being somewhere with a sign is

34:00

doing any kind of justice work. I'm , I'm sorry

34:02

to tell you . It's, it's really not . <laugh>

34:04

, it's an important part , but it's,

34:06

it's where it begins. Definitely

34:08

not where it ends . Okay

34:11

. So we should probably think about

34:14

wrapping up. We

34:16

would definitely be remiss if we didn't talk

34:18

about like the ginormous elephant

34:21

in the room, which is the

34:23

impending Supreme court decision and

34:26

dos . I

34:29

, so again,

34:32

we're recording this, the decision has not come

34:34

down yet. It may change. And

34:36

, uh, when it's released, so

34:39

with all , with that caveat, where

34:41

are you at right now? I know I'm stressed,

34:44

but also glad we don't have

34:46

a decision yet. Cuz it means people are still able

34:49

to access care. Where's

34:51

your head at with all of this stuff, I've

34:55

done so many interviews

34:58

over the last month, month

35:00

and a half about this. And you're

35:03

asking it in a slightly different way. But one of the most common

35:05

questions I get is how will this impact

35:08

your work, this decision . And

35:12

you know what I say to , to people in terms

35:14

of the work is this really doesn't change

35:16

the work because we have known

35:18

that this was coming for a really

35:20

long time and have been preparing for it.

35:22

And the way that we get out

35:24

of this is a long road

35:27

ahead. It's not gonna be a quick

35:30

fix. There will be an urgency

35:32

to making sure people get the care that they need. And I

35:34

think on an emotional level, that

35:36

is where my heart is hurting. The most is thinking

35:38

about many, many people who are

35:40

already suffering because of abortion bans and

35:42

have suffered because of abortion bans for a long

35:44

time. But the magnitude of

35:47

that is gonna be something that you and I

35:49

have not seen in our lifetimes. And that

35:51

is very sobering. And I

35:55

also know that throughout

35:57

all of time, people have done

35:59

what they have needed to do to make sure people get the

36:02

care that they need and that will continue to be

36:04

true. And so I hold the hope of

36:06

that because I just,

36:08

I know the people that we work with and there are lots of

36:10

people I don't know who have been, have been

36:12

doing this kind of work on the ground. And I'm so

36:14

very grateful for them and want to offer whatever

36:17

I can personally to make sure

36:19

that people get the care that they need, because that is

36:21

so essential to my call as a faith

36:23

leader , to take care of people . And also just our

36:26

call as human being who are in community

36:28

with each other . Yeah.

36:31

My goal is to keep all

36:33

of those people in mind, but

36:35

like maybe not the front of mind because that

36:37

is paralyzing like my

36:40

heart breaks. When I think of all of the people

36:42

who will not be able to access

36:44

care, the people who already aren't able to access

36:47

care. So that's why I

36:49

do it. But like I can't, I

36:51

can't focus on it because like, it

36:55

just like shuts me down. Like it's one of

36:57

those things that like, if I really like

36:59

think about it, like that's it, that's

37:01

all I can think about . And it's pretty paralyzing.

37:05

I, I hear that. And honestly, this

37:07

is where for me,

37:11

my spirituality is so important

37:14

and I don't wanna participate in any kind

37:16

of spiritual bypassing because the

37:18

suffering is real. And

37:22

it's something that we should all be feeling and

37:24

asking, what am I being called to do in

37:26

this moment to alleviate human suffering?

37:29

I think that that should be a guiding question

37:31

for all of us. And also as

37:34

someone who feels deeply, I identify as

37:36

an empath. Maybe you do too. Or if you're

37:38

just a human being with a heart. Yeah . We do

37:40

feel in our bodies, what

37:42

other people are feeling. And that can be, it

37:47

can cause us to not be able to get out of bed

37:49

in the morning. And there are

37:51

days like that for me now. And

37:54

I've also really tried to cultivate

37:57

spiritual practices in my life where I

38:00

remember that I can only do what I can do and

38:04

ask every day , what is it that I need to do today

38:07

to, to live into my calling

38:09

and anything. That's not mine that

38:12

I've taken on. I send back with

38:14

a lot of love, you know, and

38:16

just trust. I just trust that

38:19

I'm, I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be

38:21

doing and tuning into that guidance each

38:24

and every day, even if it feels like something that's

38:26

so small, I'm so thankful that we are

38:28

in community together. You , there are people like

38:30

you and all your guests and all of our

38:33

colleagues, we are all doing

38:35

our part. And I have to remember

38:38

that because there are days when it

38:40

feels like the weight of the world is

38:43

on our shoulders and that's real too.

38:45

And the grief is real. So honoring

38:48

those feelings and then, you know, asking

38:50

for help, I feel like I'm just constantly asking like

38:52

the universe for help . You

38:54

know , like , I dunno what I'm , this

38:56

is a horrible situation . Please

38:59

tell me what I'm supposed to do . And like make it

39:01

so simple and easy that I can't miss

39:03

. It are

39:06

my , so I talked

39:08

about right , like what, like

39:11

the , the freezing , yes, I

39:13

am very much empathic like you, but

39:16

what gives me strength and hope

39:18

is this is a really freaking

39:21

amazing community we're in. Yeah

39:24

, there are so many wonderful people

39:26

working so hard and

39:29

they just give me so much hope and

39:32

thinking like the Supreme court may

39:34

make a terrible ruling. I mean, they're

39:36

going to make a terrible ruling. It

39:39

is not the end. It is . I,

39:42

my heart breaks for all of the people who

39:44

are gonna be impacted by it, but the fight

39:46

does not stop there. We

39:49

will keep going. And there are so

39:51

many amazing people that we are lucky enough to

39:53

work with every day . And you

39:56

know, so often if not every

39:58

day , most days I am reminded

40:01

of how amazing our community is.

40:03

And that gives me the strength

40:06

and the hope to keep going

40:08

forward and keep fighting for

40:11

all of the people. I

40:13

agree. I agree. And one

40:16

of the things that I've appreciated

40:19

about this time, which has been so very

40:21

difficult, has been the receptivity

40:24

to the message that I'm

40:26

bringing. And my colleagues are bringing, especially

40:29

around faith and

40:32

abortion justice in particular, there are

40:34

people who have not heard

40:36

this before , who are hearing it for the first

40:39

time that people of faith have always been

40:42

engaged in the struggle for reproductive freedom in

40:44

real ways . And just

40:46

being able to share that message on this

40:49

podcast and with other audiences that

40:51

gives me hope too, because we

40:53

are gonna have more people who are paying

40:55

attention, who understand finally what

40:57

we've been saying for so long and

41:00

they're gonna wanna join us. So if you're listening for

41:02

the first time to this podcast or new

41:04

to the movement, we are so glad to have you.

41:06

We need you. And thank you.

41:09

Thank you for joining cuz we we're really

41:11

gonna need everybody. Oh

41:13

my goodness. What a perfect segue to our

41:15

last thing, which is always, so what can

41:17

these people do? We are grateful

41:19

to have them with us. What, what actions

41:22

can our audience take? Well,

41:26

for one support, your local abortion fund is

41:28

always the thing that I tell people to do. I'm sure

41:30

that's an action item on most, most podcast

41:33

episodes cuz that's yeah . One of the

41:35

best ways to support your

41:37

local community and the people who've been doing this work for

41:39

a long time. If you are someone who's

41:41

interested in this intersection around faith

41:44

and repro , I would love for you

41:46

to visit the religious coalition

41:48

for reproductive choice R crc.org

41:51

and I'll name just quickly. Two things.

41:54

One is if you are an abortion

41:56

seeker or you know, someone who is

41:58

going through an abortion experience or processing one,

42:01

we have a site called abortions welcome. That's

42:03

a spiritual companion site abortions

42:06

welcome.org , which we developed with faith and women in Mississippi.

42:08

It's a pro-choice spiritual companion.

42:11

And it also has accurate information if you

42:13

are someone who's seeking abortion care. So

42:15

I'd love for you visit that or share that . And

42:17

also our religion and repro learning

42:19

center is a wonderful place to get started. If

42:22

you're wondering how the heck did we get here?

42:24

How did this narrative around faith and abortion become

42:27

what it is ? We've got webinars,

42:29

self-based courses and a resource library there

42:31

that'll help you get oriented and

42:33

also get equipped to do the

42:36

kind of direct service that we were talking about

42:38

earlier. So those are my lineups

42:40

. And of course I would love for you to buy a copy of a complicated

42:42

choice, which you can find anywhere.

42:44

Please support your local bookstore or

42:47

shop through bookshop.org to support

42:49

local independent bookstores. Yes,

42:52

and I definitely, I cannot recommend Katie's

42:55

book enough. Like I said, it is really

42:57

beautiful and I couldn't, I

43:00

honestly, I couldn't think of a better person to have written this

43:02

book, Katie as

43:04

always. It was a joy talking

43:06

to you. Thank you so much for being

43:09

here also. I

43:11

don't think Katie mentioned it, but she also

43:13

has her own podcast. I

43:16

do . So you should definitely check

43:18

out kindreds it is . I

43:21

always enjoy listening to, to that podcast

43:23

as well. Thank you Jenny, for

43:26

that plug <laugh> <laugh> and

43:28

with that. Thank you, Katie . Thank

43:31

you, Jenny . I so appreciate you. Okay

43:34

. Y'all I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Katie.

43:37

I had a great time talking to her. She

43:40

is just really, truly a wonderful

43:42

person with that. Let's

43:45

see if you have any questions or a topic you

43:47

would like us to cover. Always feel free to

43:49

reach out. Am met Jenny repos, fight

43:52

back.com and that's Jenny with an IE,

43:55

or you can reach out to us via social media

43:57

at repos, fight back on Facebook

43:59

and Twitter or repos FB

44:02

on Instagram. And unless something

44:04

else major happens, I should see y'all

44:06

in two weeks. For

44:09

more information, including show notes from

44:12

this episode and previous episodes, please

44:14

visit us at our website at repos,

44:16

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44:18

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44:21

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44:32

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