0:00

Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host,

0:02

Scott Goldman, Executive director of the Grammy

0:05

Museum.

0:07

Each week in the Climb Davis Theater, I have the chance

0:09

to speak with artists from across the musical spectrum

0:11

about their careers, their inspirations,

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and their creative process. Now

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with Required Listening, I'm excited to

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share these interviews with you. In

0:22

today's episode, my conversation with

0:24

Tony Award winning singer, actor, songwriter

0:27

and playwright Billy Porter Jr. He

0:31

first came to prominence in the first Revival

0:33

of Greece, appeared in films, and

0:35

ultimately won a Tony Award for originating

0:38

the incredible role of Lola in

0:40

Kinky Boots. But

0:43

it's his passion for his craft,

0:45

his commitment to his artistry

0:48

that is absolutely palpable. You

0:50

can hear that commitment when he talks about how

0:52

theater plucked him from the darkness,

0:55

how it literally saved his life.

0:58

You'll also hear his unique thoughts about

1:00

himself as an artist and what owning

1:03

the leader really means to him.

1:06

Finally, he makes the key discovery

1:09

that opens the door to the rest of

1:11

his career. So let's go to the

1:13

Clive Davis Theater and listen to my conversation

1:15

with Billy Porter Jr.

1:24

What's happened to y'all? I

1:31

want to start by talking about the record and then we can kind

1:33

of roll the video tape back. This is a

1:35

fantastic project and I'm wondering for you

1:37

what was the genesis of this? When did this idea

1:40

start to percolate? Well, it's interesting

1:42

because, um, you know, I'm

1:44

obsessed with theater. I'm obsessed with those

1:47

older songs, you know, just the

1:49

way that they're written. I'm a believer

1:51

and understanding where

1:54

you come from, understanding what the rules

1:56

are so you can break them, you know.

1:58

So and you know that are breaking them.

2:00

And it's a choice and not just by accident.

2:03

The songwriters who I am in love

2:05

with, you know. One of them was Stephen Sondheim

2:07

from the Theater and you know, I was sort

2:10

of miffed that they

2:12

didn't cast black people in those shows. But

2:14

I still love the music, you know, and

2:16

so I had this idea, this crazy

2:19

idea to like do different

2:21

arrangements of the music, you know,

2:23

make them black, black them up. Um,

2:27

and Susie

2:29

Deeds, who's a theater producer, um,

2:34

she sort of produced the show and we actually

2:36

put it up and it was Stephen Sondheim's

2:38

music done in like R and B

2:41

and soul and gospel and rapping hip

2:43

hop styles, and so

2:45

we did that. It was a great success. And

2:48

Raprise Theater company which she ran

2:50

for a while, was out here and they were

2:52

doing a Richard Rogers season and she said,

2:54

oh, you should, you should do

2:57

the same treatment to Richard Roger's music that you

2:59

did with like it could be a thing. And

3:01

they were doing a concert and they said, just do a concert

3:04

of it, like see what happens. And so Ren

3:06

Brown at the Nate Holden Theater you

3:09

know in the Black area of town, hosted

3:12

it for us, and

3:14

it was a great success. So fast forward.

3:16

That was back in two thousand nine. Fast forward,

3:20

you know my patrons of the art, Susie

3:22

Diets and Letty Be or her husband who's

3:25

in the music business now. He

3:29

yes, so he got a deal

3:31

on Sony and he said, oh, I want to sign you

3:33

and you should make a record and you should do that Brigard

3:35

Rogers thing. And that's

3:38

how it happened. And that's sort of that.

3:40

That was the impulse and we also learned

3:43

to that when

3:45

people know the

3:48

song, the deconstruction

3:50

of the arrangement becomes that

3:53

much more amazing

3:55

to them because they know where it came from.

3:57

And so I think with Richard Rogers music, it's

4:00

been great because, um,

4:02

you know, that was the pop music of its day.

4:04

You know, that was the Golden Age pop music. And

4:06

everybody on the planet knows a Richard

4:09

Roger song. Even if you don't know that, you know

4:11

why, you know, And so you

4:14

know, wash that Man right out of My Hair was a shampoo

4:16

commercial. You know, everybody knows

4:19

my funny Valentine. At least. It's

4:21

like certain kinds of music are just in part

4:25

of your d N. Yeah, and so the

4:27

music being in our d N I

4:29

has allowed for the project

4:31

to resonate I think um

4:34

in a really great way. But You've always

4:36

kind of made this connection between

4:38

Broadway and soul

4:40

music, and I'm wondering, why

4:43

does Broadway music and

4:45

soul music works so well

4:47

together for you? I think

4:49

it is my journey to

4:51

it. I grew

4:54

up singing in the church, uh,

4:56

singing gospel music, singing

4:58

UM, R and B and soul music, and

5:02

you know, the childhood wasn't so lovely. I

5:04

was looking for stuff to sort of just

5:07

like occupy my time, get me out,

5:10

like you know what was it? And

5:13

in the sixth grade I was introduced

5:15

to theater. Being on

5:17

stage in a theatrical production

5:20

and going to a Pentecostal church are kind

5:22

of the same thing. Pentecostal

5:25

church service on Sunday morning is theater

5:27

of the highest order. So

5:32

it just worked for me for

5:34

whatever reason, it worked. But I found

5:37

inside of the infrastructure

5:40

of theater and commercial theater that

5:42

the two worlds were very

5:45

often opposite um

5:47

and didn't really come together. And I

5:49

just didn't feel like that was right.

5:52

I didn't feel like it was okay because here I am

5:54

standing here. You know, I am this

5:56

person from this world

5:58

who loves all of this stuff, and

6:01

so why can't they come together? Um.

6:04

I didn't know that it was a

6:06

life's mission at the time, but now, all

6:08

these years later, it's like I've been

6:10

doing it since then. You

6:13

know, theater saved my life. You

6:15

know, it's saved my life. It

6:18

plucked me out of the darkness.

6:20

You know, it plucked me out of what

6:22

could have been

6:25

my demise. It could have

6:29

destroyed me. You know, I could

6:31

have been a statistic. I

6:33

was set up to be a statistic when you

6:35

look at it on paper. I was supposed

6:37

to be a statistic and it was theater

6:41

that saved that. So in order

6:43

to honor that for

6:45

myself, there's never

6:47

any going away from it. And

6:53

you mentioned this, you know a little bit, that Richard

6:55

Rodgers and his music was pop music of

6:58

the day. Is it important for you

7:00

to remind people that

7:02

Broadway music isn't just

7:05

something that a started

7:07

with the Lion King, by the way,

7:10

no disrespect to the Lion King, um

7:12

that there is a long history

7:14

and that there was a time where

7:16

this was the

7:19

pre eminent music in this country.

7:21

Absolutely, it was the pop music.

7:23

Everybody knew it. And I just

7:25

feel like, I mean,

7:28

recently it's opened up, it's cracked

7:30

open. But when I started in the business,

7:33

you know, back in the eighties, it was like,

7:36

you know, to say that you were

7:38

a theater artist was the kiss of death because

7:41

in the record business, you know, I had a deal, I had

7:43

a record deal in the nineties on A and M

7:45

Records, and I was instructed

7:48

to not talk about the three Broadway shows that

7:50

I was at, you know, there would rather

7:52

I just come out of nowhere.

7:55

It was very difficult, and and and I feel

7:57

like, you know, we've always been

8:00

here. I know Hamilton's has you know, smashed

8:02

through the glass ceiling, but the rest of us have

8:04

actually been here working in the trenches for

8:07

the last thirty years. And that's no disrespect

8:09

to Hamilton's. You know, it's like it's but

8:12

but we've been doing it. I've been standing

8:14

here doing it. We've been standing here doing

8:16

it. Many of us have been standing here doing it for

8:19

decades. So

8:22

I'm thrilled that

8:25

now people

8:28

are listening in a different way. I also think it's

8:30

the Internet, you know. I also think

8:32

it's really interesting because the Internet

8:34

has brought all of

8:36

the theater geeks together and swirled

8:39

them up, and now it's popular again because

8:41

there are just as many of us as

8:44

there are in every other genre and

8:46

connect and it

8:49

wasn't available before you Eat.

8:51

You know, with this project, you take on a little

8:53

bit of a different role in that you know that

8:56

it's Billy Porter Presents. You are the producer

8:58

and the curator of this.

9:00

You're not necessarily on every

9:02

track. Why take that

9:04

on? Why not just do Billy Porter sings

9:07

the soul of Richard Rodgers and make it your project.

9:09

Well, first of all, I

9:11

have the most talented friends on the planet, and

9:15

I love working with talent. I love working

9:17

with my friends. I've always been

9:19

that person. I've always done

9:21

that, so it sort of seems second nature

9:24

to me to do something like this. But

9:26

I also, you know, in terms

9:28

of my space, in

9:30

my place in the industry and in the

9:32

business and in the world

9:35

as as a creative person, I

9:37

began to understand a

9:39

number of years ago that the

9:42

ideas that I have, the vision

9:45

that I have, everybody doesn't

9:47

have that, you know, because I'm surrounded

9:49

with so many talented people in

9:52

my life. You just sort of assumed that everybody,

9:54

everybody has a talenty. Everybody

9:57

I know has a town comment.

10:00

That's not normal, it's not common. And

10:05

I have ideas in my head

10:07

and in my brain, and I never you

10:09

know, I'm the I always say, I'm the last of a generation

10:12

of people who were

10:14

taught to be brilliant interpreters of other people's

10:17

material as an actor, as a you

10:19

know, like you went to drama school and you learned

10:21

how to do the classics and the Shakespeare

10:24

and the check off and the Dada and you learned how to sing

10:26

the classics Rogers and heart

10:28

Rogers happen. You're like you if if

10:30

the idea of creating it for

10:33

yourself wasn't already instinctively

10:35

and you it wasn't something that people

10:37

sort of encourage. The Internet

10:40

has encouraged the whole generation of

10:42

do it yourself first, for better or

10:44

for worse. Uh, sometimes

10:46

you should and sometimes you shouldn't. But

10:50

with that said, you know, for

10:53

me, the way that I entered the business,

10:55

the way that I entered the theater industry,

10:58

I had a very special, old,

11:00

specific kind of voice. When

11:02

I started in the business and

11:04

I got to New York, I played that trump card.

11:07

You know, it was a ha ha ha gospel,

11:09

like blow the roof off the joint boys, and

11:12

you know, I got work and I got work. But after

11:15

a number of years, I realized it was pigeonholing

11:17

me into um a

11:20

space that I felt uncomfortable. You

11:22

know. It was like, you want me to come

11:24

and stop your show, but

11:27

when it's time to tell my story, you're

11:29

not interested. And so for me,

11:33

I had to make the decision that that was no longer

11:35

okay. And when I made

11:37

that decision and started demanding

11:40

a different kind of um

11:43

respect from the people who

11:46

could give you work. The work dried

11:48

up and I was left with no

11:50

work. And it

11:53

was the best thing that could have happened to me because

11:57

it made me go deeper, and it made

11:59

me ask different questions

12:01

of myself and challenge

12:04

myself in different ways and become

12:06

the person who standing before you. Well, and you

12:08

said something fascinating about this, and I'm

12:10

gonna quote you because I love this

12:13

you've talked about, and this is the quote

12:16

owning the leader in

12:18

me? Tell

12:20

me what that means. What is owning the leader

12:23

means. It's interesting because

12:27

I've always felt like a leader.

12:30

But you know, there was this part

12:32

of me coming from

12:35

the church, the idea of

12:38

you can't be braggadocious. You

12:40

know, it's a gift, and so

12:42

therefore you need

12:44

to be humble. Um.

12:46

And that's all good, but the

12:49

humility of it, I think for me, it

12:51

reached the ceiling and I

12:54

had to go, you know what, I actually

12:56

know what I'm doing, and I actually

12:58

need to be out in the front doing that. So

13:01

I'm gonna honor that, I'm gonna

13:03

own that. I'm going to have

13:06

faith in that I'm gonna step out on

13:08

faith and I'm gonna

13:10

do it. Tell me about choosing the material,

13:12

tell me about the repertoire, because I'm

13:15

wondering. Was it a case of, Okay,

13:17

I got the repertoire, now I'm gonna

13:19

find the artists, or is it more

13:21

a case of I got these artists? What's

13:24

right? Well, it was it was both.

13:27

When we did the concert, the

13:30

idea and the concept was classic

13:33

to the contemporary Broadway and

13:35

soul, which is my brand. You

13:37

know. We did

13:39

a lot of arrangements, starting from jazz

13:42

and all the way up to like hip

13:44

hop and wrapping gospel and all of that. And

13:46

when we were putting this album together,

13:48

I went back and started listening to the concert,

13:50

and I thought, yeah, I need

13:53

one thing. And the thing that

13:55

I need, and the thing that hasn't been

13:57

in the market before, is

14:00

to take this material and

14:02

do these R and B soul gospel

14:05

treatment contemporary gospel treatments

14:07

of them, because that hasn't been done. So

14:10

that became the focus.

14:12

So I knew that. So I knew whatever

14:14

songs we choose from this group

14:16

of songs that we already have arrangements for, we're

14:19

gonna have to flip the arrangements a bit and

14:22

make them all sonically sound

14:24

the same, and I want them to sound urban

14:26

and contemporary and relevant and present

14:29

today. So we knew that. Then

14:32

the artists sort

14:34

of fell into place. They've kind of

14:36

found themselves. It's like, let us

14:38

see, uh, you know, she

14:40

was in the concert in two

14:42

thousand and nine, so I said, well, what do

14:44

you want to do? Of the four songs that

14:47

she sang, which one would you want? Bewitched?

14:49

Okay, you got that, so you

14:52

know this, So that sort of happened like that.

14:54

Brandon, Victor Dixon and Josh Henry, who

14:56

I was in shuffle along with last

14:59

season. You know, they

15:02

have this really interesting,

15:05

fun kind of rivalry

15:07

in the business where they're always up at

15:09

the same parts. They're always playing the same parts.

15:11

They're both playing Aaron Burr right now and separate

15:14

companies of Hamilton's. And then there's this going

15:16

back to some time. There's this song and into the

15:18

Wood called Agony, where the

15:20

prince is sort of vie for

15:23

the affection of a person. I thought, oh, wouldn't

15:25

it be interesting to do like

15:27

an urban version of that sense

15:30

of with the Richard Rogers

15:32

song, which is why it goes

15:34

into that like R and B you

15:37

know, thing off thing at the end, you know, because

15:39

they're vying for each other's love. Cynthia

15:42

Rivo, It's like she has to I

15:44

has to say that, and I have to and

15:47

I have to stop you there because um. You know,

15:49

I saw an interview with her speaking specifically

15:51

about you and this project and this

15:54

this has to be remarkable. And I don't know if she said

15:56

this to you, but she said

15:58

this interview. I trust Billy implicitly.

16:01

I trust him,

16:03

you know, with the song choice.

16:05

I trust him with you know, kind of my

16:08

artistic role in this.

16:10

What does that kind of trust from a fellow

16:13

artist mean to you? You know, I'm only

16:15

now beginning to be able to take

16:17

it in. Like I said before, it's

16:19

like I'm such a worker

16:22

and I have blinders on all the time,

16:24

and so I don't always feel

16:26

it. But this project has

16:29

helped me to feel that, you

16:31

know, working with India as

16:33

well, it's like I've met India. Um.

16:36

India, I re um who

16:38

came to see Shuffle Along. She sort

16:41

of came backstage looking for me. You

16:43

know. She has been a healer

16:46

her music has healed me, has

16:48

healed my soul for decades,

16:52

you know. So to have her standing in front of me, I was

16:54

like, okay, well we need to work together. What show

16:56

number? And I

16:58

had no idea. This is going back to that idea

17:01

of how did the songs come together. I had no

17:03

idea that she was gonna be on

17:05

this record, and then the election happened.

17:13

Literally the day after the election happened, I

17:16

thought carefully taught India

17:18

ire and I picked up the

17:20

phone and called her. And it

17:22

was interesting to me because speaking

17:25

of how does it feel?

17:27

I brought her into the studio with every intention

17:30

that it was going to be a solo. We worked

17:32

on the arrangement, we sent it to her, everything

17:35

was cool. I walked into the studio, I said, okay,

17:37

so what you know, how do you like to work?

17:39

Do you like to run it all the way down?

17:41

Do you like to line my line? Do you like phrase

17:44

my phrase? And she said, I thought I was singing this

17:46

with you. That's it the way I'm and

17:48

I and it just took my breath

17:50

away because I didn't it

17:52

was never even a like. I wanted

17:55

the space for her to be

17:58

able to speak, and she made

18:00

it a duet, and that's astonishing.

18:02

There were things that producers can do

18:05

in the course of making records. They can shape

18:08

the sound, they can shape songs,

18:11

they can be the psychologist for

18:15

for for the artists. And I'm wondering, in

18:17

the process of doing this with so many different

18:20

artists, did you play that role? Were

18:22

you the sounding board in terms

18:24

of how should we approach this? Absolutely?

18:27

Absolutely, you know, I always

18:30

love speaking to the artist and hearing

18:33

what it is that's in their heart, you

18:36

know, the specificity of a person's

18:39

voice, of a person's style. I've

18:42

always been able to understand what that is,

18:45

and I only only only want

18:47

to make sure that we're

18:50

lifting the artist up to

18:52

be the best version of

18:54

themselves that they can be. That's

18:56

what a producer does, that's what a

18:59

creative leader does us. And it's about

19:02

releasing my own ego.

19:04

It's not about me. I

19:06

understand that, you know, a

19:08

long time ago. You know, it's the

19:10

transition of intention, you

19:13

know, going from the naive

19:15

idea that superstardom

19:18

was what I wanted, you know, because superstardom

19:21

would get me out, you know, superstardom

19:24

would make my mommy love me even though I was

19:26

gay, you know, like superstardom

19:28

would solve all of those problems that

19:31

I thought I had. And I realized

19:33

it's not about that at all. I was watching Oprah

19:36

one day as I am want to do UM

19:39

and she was on there with with my Angelou

19:41

and Elanna Van Sant,

19:44

and they were talking about um,

19:47

you know, I I I gotta get my spiritual

19:50

stuff. And they were talking about

19:53

service, you know, like intention

19:56

and service, whatever it is that you do

19:58

for a living service, Like

20:01

what does that mean? And so I began to ask myself

20:03

that question, how can I be of service

20:06

in an industry that um,

20:09

how can I be of service to something other than my own

20:11

ego and my own bank account, in

20:13

an industry that is inherently

20:15

narcissistic? And that journey

20:18

began. And when

20:21

that intention changed, my

20:23

life completely turned

20:26

around. And now everything

20:28

I do. You know, there's some connection.

20:31

It's like Kinky Boots never would have happened.

20:33

Kinky Boots is service. You

20:36

know, you go to see that show. That's of service.

20:39

All those little gay boys who

20:41

don't feel like they have a place. They stopped

20:43

me on the street every day. You

20:45

saved my life. You

20:47

changed my life. I was somewhere

20:49

the other day that sixteen year old

20:52

boy was like, can I give you

20:54

hug? You know, it's

20:56

like that is more important to me

20:58

than any accolade or you

21:01

know, check You've

21:03

got um Leslie on him jrs

21:05

on on this record, And I was interested to learn

21:07

he was a student of yours. Yes he

21:10

was, and Petina Miller as well. And

21:13

I'm wondering, what did you see in him

21:16

as a student? I saw

21:18

a person who was individual,

21:22

just like I was individual, who

21:25

was special just like I was

21:27

special, and was

21:29

still made to believe that

21:32

who they were wouldn't

21:34

work because nobody

21:37

had seen it before. And

21:39

it's like, we have to understand that just because

21:41

it hasn't been seen before doesn't mean

21:43

that it's not valid. So

21:45

for me, it was about

21:48

helping these younger people

21:51

hold on to what specifically

21:54

makes them them. You

21:56

know, it's like the sound

21:59

of the voice. You know, that's

22:01

not a sound that's usually associated with

22:03

theater. You know, for me,

22:05

I was put in his life to say keep

22:08

that sound, you don't change that

22:10

sound. You you've called him I think a modern

22:12

day Kruoner. Yes he is.

22:15

He is in the sense that you

22:17

know, like a nack king cole. You know

22:19

something I can never do. Like I listen to him

22:22

and I'm like, yeah, I can't do that.

22:24

That's not what I do. I'm a screamer. But

22:28

you know, it's about us all owning

22:31

who we are and loving that

22:34

and not letting anybody take that away.

22:37

You also have and I believe she might be here tonight.

22:40

Um you've got let us see, yes, is

22:42

she here? You here? I heard something.

22:49

It's a terrific track, and you've talked about her

22:51

in particular. Please don't take this the wrong

22:53

way that this is his quote, raw

22:56

but focused. You

22:58

know, listen, I

23:03

don't like floppy singing. I

23:06

don't like off pitch singing. I

23:10

don't like it being blamed on being raw.

23:14

It's raw emotions. So it's okay

23:16

that you ain't on pitch. I'm not that person.

23:18

I don't like that, you know, because

23:20

I believe that you can be raw and still

23:23

be on pitch. That's what I'm talking about.

23:25

I believe that you can be raw and

23:27

not fall out of your riffs. I

23:30

believe you can do that. That's what she is.

23:33

You know, That's what I meant by that. You

23:35

know, because we get into this space in

23:37

this world where we give people passes

23:40

for just not being good. It's

23:43

not good singing, huh. You

23:47

know. It's like you get in a line

23:49

and you win an award, you win a reality

23:52

television contest, and you

23:54

don't have any craft. You

23:57

can't sustain it, you know.

24:00

I want to talk ship on theater people. I do it eight

24:02

times a week and Hills eight

24:07

times a week. That's what I believe

24:09

in. Now, that's my thing, you

24:11

know, And that's what I meant when I said that about it. I

24:14

mean, it's a terrific track. By the way she

24:16

does the song bewitched, Yes, bothered

24:19

and bewildered. Yes. And there's a

24:21

young man on the track who's actually here with

24:23

us as well. It's like your park yes,

24:25

And I'm wondering how were you introduced?

24:28

Okay, So I have to

24:30

tell the story about putting

24:33

the album together. So my

24:35

writing partner, musical director for

24:37

fourteen years, James sam Plainer, who's sitting over there.

24:42

So we originally did the

24:44

concert back in two thousand and nine, the arrangement together.

24:47

So when we started working

24:49

on this record and I

24:51

was like, well, I wanted to be more

24:54

hip hop orient, you know, like I want to bring

24:57

like an edgier side, and

24:59

and I looked at the both of us and I was like, okay,

25:02

we can take it to a certain level, but

25:05

like we need something else. We need like a ringer.

25:08

And this guy who

25:10

I had known back in the nineties when I

25:12

had my first deal hip hop R

25:14

and B soul rap producer,

25:17

popped into my head. It's just it's

25:20

like it's divine when it happens like that.

25:22

I popped into my head. Hadn't spoken to him

25:24

in ten years. And I looked

25:27

on my phone and they were like seventeen numbers,

25:29

and I like, did this

25:32

and just pressed one and

25:34

he picked up the phone. And that's Michael sand Loofer

25:36

who's sitting over there. So

25:39

the trifecta of us sort

25:42

of is what brought this album together. And

25:45

zire Park he's

25:47

he's his artist. He produces people, so he's

25:50

his artists. And we were, you know, I was

25:52

trying to get some of the Hamiltonians in there

25:54

the rap with me, but you know, they

25:56

got TV shows and movie gigs and ship and

25:59

stop returning my telephone calls. So

26:01

I said, well, I'm not gonna be held hostage.

26:03

I got some other bitches who

26:06

I can't pull out. It's all right,

26:09

we all got a gig. We

26:14

got some other rappers. But

26:18

he brings in particular energy that I think

26:20

is yeah, perfect for this. Yeah,

26:23

it's it's you know, to

26:25

spit the rhymes as they call it. Am

26:28

I saying, I'm right, you know, because

26:30

I've missed the whole rap thing. Um,

26:36

you know, it was another it was yet another

26:39

group of people who didn't

26:42

like me, you know, kill the police and kill

26:44

the faggots. So I'm not spending money

26:46

on that. I gotta save myself. So I

26:48

missed a movement as a result

26:51

of that. And I feel jipped, you know, because

26:53

I meet people like Zaire and I go Wow,

26:56

It's the artistry in it, the word

26:59

smith, this craft

27:01

of it is just mind

27:04

blowing. It's mind blowing to me.

27:07

And I'm glad now that we

27:09

live in a different space, you

27:11

know, in the world where I can now

27:14

you know, dive into that, go back and dive

27:16

into the stuff that wasn't obliterating

27:19

me as a human being, you know what I mean. I'm

27:21

really excited about that. And that's what Zaire

27:23

brings. And he's so young and spry.

27:29

You know, I feel like Grandpap. You

27:38

know, the world changed while you

27:40

were making this record, literally and

27:43

the election happened, and

27:45

I'm wondering if the record changed

27:47

for you in the

27:49

process of the world

27:52

happening around it. I'm gonna tell you

27:54

how the record changed. It

27:57

happened. And you

28:00

know, I'm a really political person. I've

28:03

always been political, you know, being

28:05

black and being gay, and

28:07

you know, I came out during the during

28:11

the Eighth Crisis. We had to go directly to the front

28:13

lines to fight for our lives. There was

28:15

nothing else that you could do. I had no luxury

28:18

of being on anybody's down low. We

28:20

had to fight for our lives. So

28:23

that was what it was. Um

28:26

So with that, it was always

28:28

political, you know, like analvice.

28:30

We know what analvice is. You

28:33

know. We know that the Bond Trapp family sings

28:35

that as the Nazis are trying to come in and occupy

28:37

blah blah blah. You know, so that was

28:40

there, carefully taught,

28:42

was not on the record. That

28:44

literally happened the day after. And

28:46

then wash that man, you

28:49

know, wash that man right out of my hair. Was the

28:51

original idea was to have Fantasia

28:54

and then the election happened

28:57

and Toddrick Hall have

29:00

been cast as Lola

29:03

and Kinky Boots, and I thought, Miss

29:06

Lola is exactly the

29:08

target for this administration

29:11

metaphorically, that's the target. That's

29:13

one of the targets, and we

29:16

have to speak to them directly from

29:19

that space. That's where

29:21

watched that man came from, and you know, Richard

29:23

Rodgers was speaking about issues

29:26

that are still relevant today. Yeah,

29:28

and that was one of my things is that you

29:30

know, they were pushing the envelope and they

29:32

were having the conversations

29:35

that were difficult to have. And you know, we live in

29:37

this this shut up and sang environment

29:39

because the idea is to squash

29:43

critical thought, you know, and make

29:45

people followers. And

29:47

we as creative people have always been the

29:50

ones who've been able to speak truth to

29:52

power creatively. We've always been the ones who've

29:54

been able to reach across the aisle when our

29:56

politicians choose not to or

29:59

can't or what ever the situation is.

30:01

And so that service,

30:05

you know, like that makes

30:07

me feel like getting

30:10

up in the morning and I'm contributing

30:14

to the world, you know what I mean,

30:16

and that so so yeah,

30:18

it literally changed the

30:21

whole tone of

30:23

the album and how I present

30:26

it. Actually, really one of the great

30:28

things I read that you said about this record,

30:30

and it may have come kind of

30:32

through the process of getting through the election, is

30:35

you wanted to show the world how fierce

30:38

Broadway is. Yeah, yeah,

30:41

it's you know, there's been this idea for years

30:43

that Broadways corny. You

30:45

know that Broadway can't hold up to traditional

30:48

pop. We don't sing that way, y'all can't thing like

30:51

that, y'all can't, you know, And it's not true, as

30:53

you can see on this record. It's not true.

30:57

Um. And and you chose Adalweis

31:00

to close the record. Why did you want to sing

31:02

that song? It's a

31:05

we. We did a contemporary gospel arrangement

31:07

of it. And you know,

31:09

while the doctrines

31:12

of the church religion,

31:15

which is man made, spirituality

31:17

is divine, you know, I

31:20

had to leave that space too. But

31:24

what I haven't left

31:26

is the music. Separating

31:29

the messenger from the ministry

31:33

is something that I've been able to do and

31:35

have had to do with gospel

31:37

music because at my core that's

31:40

what fuels me. So

31:42

while it's not a traditional gospel

31:45

song, it's a contemporary gospel

31:48

take on that song, and

31:50

I knew that that was what I had to do on

31:52

the record. I had to make that statement on

31:55

the record. So we've got time for

31:57

a couple of questions from the house here, So

31:59

do we have a question or two? Yes,

32:02

sir, right here. This past weekend

32:04

was the final eighth Project Los Angeles

32:06

Stage Benefits. I heard I

32:08

know that you participated in the past.

32:11

I was wondering how you got involved and if

32:13

you have any interesting anecdotes. I

32:15

do have an interesting antidote. The first one that

32:18

I did was probably nineteen on

32:25

I sang a song time song and

32:29

Peter Matt's was still alive. Peter

32:32

matt came over to my apartment. I

32:34

had a piano in my apartment, and we sat down

32:38

and did an arrangement of what

32:40

can you Lose and not a day goes by.

32:43

I don't talk about that very often, but

32:45

Peter Matt's was in my house and

32:48

we did an arrangement together, and

32:52

I was twenty two years old in

32:56

the back way in the back. First of all,

32:59

I love you, Thank you Later,

33:04

right, I'm saying, yes, that's the whole point.

33:07

You see this outfit, you think I walked down the street

33:09

in this outfit every day. I

33:12

got an outfit for you bitches, because

33:18

they need to hear you. And my sustity is

33:20

what would you give me a

33:22

singer who's what would you

33:25

tell them? In terms of trying to

33:27

find you they are the only thing

33:29

that you can be is the best version of yourself.

33:32

You know, It's like I

33:35

lived it. People

33:37

tried to make me

33:39

something else because who

33:41

I am and what I've represent made

33:44

them uncomfortable. So

33:47

the minute you stopped caring about that,

33:50

you find your voice. The minute

33:52

you stopped caring about other

33:54

people's successes, you

33:56

know, other people's successes are

33:59

not your face. Earlier, you're

34:01

in a race and you turned around

34:04

to look at where the other people are, and

34:06

you fall and everybody passes you up. Stay

34:10

the course, mind your business,

34:13

do you the end,

34:15

no matter how long it takes, you

34:18

know what I mean. It's like it

34:21

took way longer that

34:24

I ever thought it was gonna take. Trust

34:27

me, you know. And last question,

34:29

because it ties right in. You've talked

34:31

about your career in terms

34:33

of endurance, and and you

34:36

know you said the race is not given to the swift

34:38

nor the strong, but to the one who endures

34:40

in the end to the end, to the

34:44

end. You know, I go back to Bonnie

34:46

Ray, you know, I

34:48

remember her winning for

34:51

I Can't Make You Love Me and that album

34:53

that's just kind of bullet nick of time that

34:56

blew up. And I wasn't even really in

34:58

it in it at the time time, you

35:01

know, but I remember sitting watching and going,

35:04

wait, something just happened. That's rare.

35:07

Like this woman is old. She's

35:11

not supposed to be doing this right, you know

35:13

what I mean, Like life was supposed

35:15

to have had passed her by

35:18

at this point. You know, I remember olympiad

35:20

Caccus, you know, talking

35:23

about that, you know, when she was like,

35:25

I'm fifty something years old. I got an

35:27

oscar. And that's what I mean about

35:29

intention changing.

35:32

You want to be a star, that's bullshit.

35:34

That's some young naive bullshit. You want

35:36

to be an artist, You

35:39

want to be an artist who has

35:41

something to say. Then you're never leaving,

35:44

you're never stopping, you know, because

35:47

it's not about the ego. It's about

35:49

what's in here, and it's about what you were called

35:52

to do. I

35:54

have been called to do this

35:57

on this earth, in this moment right

35:59

now. So whether people are listening

36:01

or not, George Steve Wolf, one of my mentors, said,

36:04

you gotta you know, you can't wait for anybody

36:07

to give you permission to practice your art. If

36:09

you're an artist, you're gonna be doing it all

36:11

the time, whether people are listening or

36:13

not. Well,

36:21

we could not be more pleased to

36:24

have had the chance to listen to you, not

36:27

only tonight, but

36:30

in your career to this point and this

36:32

album, which is fantastic.

36:35

Thank you, so, first of all, thank you for taking

36:37

the time. Thank you for having me a chance.

36:39

How about the Grammy Museum, y'all. I'm

36:41

thinking, y'all, shit,

36:46

get it up for Billy Porter. It

36:59

isn't often that you hear an artist talk about his

37:01

transition of intention and

37:04

turning toward the idea of service in

37:06

his career, and how keeping that sense

37:08

of service to others is what

37:10

ultimately changed his life and career.

37:14

I would encourage you to seek out some Billy Porter

37:16

music or check out the soundtrack to Kinky

37:18

Boots, and you'll get a great sense of this

37:21

remarkable artist. So

37:23

that's your required listening for today,

37:31

and let's keep the conversation going We're on

37:33

all the social platforms at Grammy

37:36

Museum. All the info about

37:38

our activities are exhibits and our

37:40

programs is at our website grammy

37:42

museum dot org. As

37:44

always, props to the team that makes

37:46

required listening happen every week, Jason

37:49

James, Justin, Joseph Kelly Weisman, Lynn

37:51

Sheridan, Miranda Moore, Jim Cannella,

37:54

Jason Hope, Chandler May's, Nick Stump, Lenn

37:56

Brown, and everyone at

37:59

How Stuff Works. Until next time,

38:01

I'm Scott Goldman, h