0:09

Welcome to the Productivity Podcast . Today

0:11

I'm joined by Lisa Hooker , head of

0:13

consumer markets at PWC

0:15

. Hi , lisa .

0:16

Hi Simon .

0:18

How are you doing today ?

0:19

Yeah , good , the sun's out today .

0:22

The sun's out and the wind's stopped and the rain's

0:24

disappeared for a bit , so probably the best we can hope

0:26

for this time of year .

0:27

Exactly .

0:28

Good , so I really appreciate your time

0:31

today . Thanks for joining us on the podcast

0:33

. We're going to talk all things

0:35

retail , consumer but before we

0:37

dive into those topics , can you just

0:39

give us a bit of background on yourself , lisa

0:41

, kind of what you've done , how you've got to be

0:43

in head of consumer markets at PWC ?

0:47

Yeah , sure , so I

0:49

am what we call a life , as

0:51

I left university and I've

0:53

been at PWC ever since , having

0:56

moved from training in audit

0:58

and getting my accountancy qualifications

1:01

to then moving around different

1:03

areas in terms of deals . But

1:05

my day job really is doing

1:07

financial due diligence on retail

1:09

and leisure deals and

1:11

through that I've always

1:14

really been involved with the consumer

1:16

, so headed up the transaction team

1:18

and then the deals team and then

1:20

I've gone firm wide so

1:22

that , as people know , pwc

1:25

is divided by lines of service , but we

1:27

have this overarching structure

1:29

by industry where we drive our key accounts

1:31

and keep thought leadership in our community

1:33

.

1:35

Excellent . So from

1:37

college through to today , it's a bit like

1:39

I think . The only other person I could think it was a life was

1:42

Ryan Giggs , who played for man United

1:44

from School Boyle all the way through . There's not many people

1:46

that have completed that journey now , is there ?

1:49

I think my generation is quite

1:51

a few of us , but not in the younger generations

1:54

I think they say don't need that sort of generation

1:56

. Zerd is going to have like 12 jobs

1:58

or something . So I think it's it's changing

2:01

people's attitudes to careers and jobs

2:03

.

2:03

Yeah , absolutely , absolutely . So let's

2:05

get into the fun stuff . Then If

2:08

we , if we focus on retail

2:10

, that there's lots we can talk about

2:12

, so we'll we'll keep quite focused

2:14

. But from a general

2:16

retail point , are there any key

2:18

trends that you're seeing out there at the moment

2:21

?

2:22

It's a really interesting backdrop

2:24

at the moment . I always say look across

2:27

2023, . The consumer

2:29

has been incredibly resilient

2:32

because if you look at like the ONS data

2:34

, they've grown about 6% a month

2:36

. Now I know that means that , given

2:38

inflation , the volume declined by

2:40

about 2% to 3% , but still

2:42

there's more money going into the tills

2:45

. But the outlook and

2:47

what we've seen is a lot more volatility

2:49

week on week , responding much

2:52

more to weather or special events

2:54

on the positive or negative . So

2:57

you know the consumer

2:59

has been resilient , but it's not been easy

3:01

and there's definitely been winners

3:03

in terms of growing areas such

3:06

as grocery , health and beauty

3:08

, the pets and

3:11

the children . But I think it's been much

3:13

tougher for the big ticket furniture

3:15

, electricals , diy and

3:18

as we sit here today , I say

3:20

look , there's some really good reasons to be cheerful

3:23

in that inflation is coming down

3:25

, real incomes going above

3:27

inflation , but there's also

3:30

reasons to be fearful in terms

3:32

of the latent impact of interest

3:34

rates on mortgages and rent

3:36

and also the job market outlook

3:38

has softened a little bit .

3:41

Yeah , it's a real mixed bag , isn't it ? And

3:43

every time you kind of shake the pot it settles

3:45

slightly differently in terms of how you

3:48

feel about it . I think , from

3:50

what we've seen , you know that whole conversation

3:52

is bricks and mortar dead . I never believed

3:54

it anyway , and I think it'll always be

3:56

there . I think there's a softening

3:59

in shift , certainly . I

4:01

was in London for most of the week last

4:03

week . You know Oxford Street

4:05

. There's a big change , isn't there ? You've got the

4:07

old Debenhams that's almost knocked down

4:10

now the old House of Fraser , that's knocked

4:12

down . So we've really only got John

4:14

Lewis is the department store

4:16

and then and then Selfridges . But

4:18

further down the street I went into next

4:21

and that's almost becoming a pseudo department

4:23

store because we've got gap and we've got

4:25

jewels and all the other things . So there's this

4:27

more thing , but also

4:30

lots more , certainly in that central

4:32

London bit leisure , hospitality

4:34

, coffee shops , every three or

4:36

four kind of shopfronts . So

4:39

the mix has changed , hasn't it ? But actually the physicality

4:41

is always going to be there .

4:43

Yeah , it's really interesting . We did a

4:45

consumer reconsidered a couple of years ago

4:47

and when we asked , do you love

4:49

stores , it was actually the younger generation

4:52

that , if they had the time , love

4:54

them the most . So I don't think

4:56

you're going to see online

4:59

continue to grow rapidly . I think it will

5:01

continue to have an impact , but I think it's

5:04

going to grow a lot slower . But

5:06

when you actually ? We also do some research

5:08

around net store openings and

5:10

closures for chain stores and

5:12

you've seen still a continued shift

5:15

away from the high street to

5:17

more retail parts because their viewed as being

5:19

more convenient you can park , you

5:21

can grab your click and collect , you

5:23

can grab your coffee on the drive-through

5:25

, etc . So stores

5:28

are definitely here to stay , but where they

5:30

are is changing and I

5:32

think there are a number of high streets

5:34

that are going through a level of regeneration

5:37

. I always think , when you pick London

5:39

, regent Street I think has done it really

5:41

well and partly helped , I think , by

5:43

a common landlord . But Oxford Street

5:45

I think is sort of two

5:47

or three years into what is now a regeneration

5:50

, given that actually some of the big brands have had

5:52

to pull out and it's good to see

5:54

that IKEA is coming in

5:56

and going to reopen quite a big site

5:59

on the Oxford

6:01

Street side .

6:02

Yeah , that'd be interesting . I've seen the face

6:04

. It looks pretty cool with the kind of . We

6:06

all know what the IKEA bag looks like and it looks

6:08

like a giant IKEA bag that they're covering

6:11

the building where we saw some creative marketing

6:13

there . One of the big news

6:15

stories over in the last kind of six

6:17

weeks has been , I think , the surprise

6:19

in the jump from

6:22

national living wage . So we're going up

6:24

a pound and two pence and we're dropping

6:26

the threshold down to include

6:28

under 21s . For some

6:30

they're above it , so it's a differential

6:33

pressure . For others it was

6:35

way more than they were the budgeting for , because

6:37

I think historically we've done kind of 40 through

6:39

to 60p . Is

6:42

that something that lots of your clients are talking

6:44

to you about and is in their

6:46

minds of how they get

6:48

through to April and budget for it

6:50

? But also the next two , three , four years , with

6:52

a potential change in government

6:54

which could mean an increase in this area

6:56

.

6:58

It's really interesting . We obviously got the

7:00

autumn statement and I think

7:02

it did include some areas which were

7:04

positive for the shopper and the consumer

7:07

in terms of the national living

7:09

wage , inflation linked pensions

7:12

, national insurance reduction so

7:14

it's positive in that side

7:16

. The negative side of things is

7:19

the affordability next

7:21

year , not just around the living

7:23

wage but also around the rates increases

7:26

. So there's quite a lot of cost

7:28

inflation to come and

7:30

there's still mixed talk about quite what's

7:33

going to happen to energy prices next year , whether they

7:35

might be a little bit more of an

7:37

increase in those after . We've seen

7:39

quite a substantial decrease this year . So there's

7:42

a lot of chat about how do

7:44

you manage your costs and

7:47

the cost inflation at the

7:49

same time as serving the customer

7:51

in the best way you can and freeing

7:53

up cash to invest in technology and generative

7:55

AI is quite a common

7:58

conversation to have with a

8:00

number of the market .

8:02

It's tricky to square that circle

8:04

, isn't it ? Because we've

8:07

seen it before where people have been quite

8:09

blunt with cost cutting which

8:11

becomes a short term measuring and then

8:13

stunts that growth as the economy

8:15

bounces back . We've seen people

8:18

go almost full automation

8:20

, which then for some

8:22

generations the shoppers is absolutely what they want

8:24

. For others they still want that human interaction

8:26

and I still feel you know , certainly

8:28

maybe some of the bigger supermarkets as well we're still

8:30

trying to find that balance of manned

8:33

versus self check out . We seem to have

8:35

swung in my local ones to

8:37

70 , 80% self check

8:39

out , less manned . I'm sure in the future it may

8:41

swing back , but that's not

8:43

an easy thing to one

8:46

start to solve

8:48

, but two , to have a strategic plan which

8:50

takes you three or four years when there's so many

8:52

moving component parts .

8:55

Yes , it's an interesting one

8:57

is when my cost that colleagues

8:59

talk to me , they simply talk about

9:01

taking up bad costs and those costs are

9:04

really appreciated by

9:06

your consumer . I'm probably

9:08

using that money to invest in good costs

9:10

and good investments , and

9:12

so there is that sort of permanent

9:14

pressure to try and eliminate cost

9:17

that aren't actually driving good business

9:19

. And when you talk about stores

9:21

now you know actually

9:23

consumer wants an omni channel

9:26

experience . They want to be able to buy

9:28

whenever they want , where they want , how

9:30

they want . So they do

9:32

want the combination of online and

9:35

, you know , in store , but also

9:37

like social media and all the other

9:39

areas and rental and resale type

9:41

models . So they do want an increasing

9:44

way Engaging

9:46

. So which does put pressure on

9:48

your cost base . And I think there

9:50

will be more technology that we've seen

9:52

already coming to stores . But it depends

9:55

on the purpose of the journey . If

9:57

it's a convenience store , you want to be in and

9:59

out as quick as possible . Things

10:01

like self check out , even check out

10:03

free is really important . But

10:06

if you're buying a luxury

10:08

purchase , you want to be engaged

10:10

. I'm off the

10:12

staff in the shop . So I think what you're gonna

10:14

have to do is look at your state and

10:17

in different places it probably has different purposes

10:19

, and then you can have to consider how

10:22

much you have people and people time

10:24

, these technology .

10:26

Yes , so much more tailored approach to the kind

10:28

of the format offering or the lens that you're

10:30

deploying in that local area .

10:33

Yes .

10:35

So cost pressures but also

10:37

, like , say , some exciting stuff . So you know , there's

10:39

, as you said , there's the Investment

10:42

in AI , machine learning , which we've

10:45

probably only on the cost of our way in terms of some

10:47

of the things we've seen , and I'm sure

10:49

, like me , you've kind of had a play with barred

10:52

or Check GPT and see

10:54

what it can and can't do . So there's

10:56

also lots of excitement around hospitality

10:59

, retail and certainly

11:01

some of the other areas we work in , manufacturing contact

11:03

centers , around what the art of the

11:06

possible is within

11:08

the boundaries of not kind of turn it

11:10

turn into kind of a terminator world

11:12

through AI and machine learning .

11:16

Yeah , I mean it's really interesting . I

11:19

always think you have to think what is the

11:21

role of technology , and you

11:23

can think about it probably in lots

11:25

of ways , but I think about it in five

11:27

ways . You know , does it enhance the customer

11:30

proposition and end to end customer journey

11:32

? Didn't you know ? Do you need it to

11:34

digitize the operating , operating model , to

11:36

capture either efficiencies but also unlock

11:38

effectiveness , particularly in

11:41

an omnichannel world like unified

11:43

commerce , intelligent logistics

11:45

and digital payments ? Is

11:48

it to me , yes you regulations or corporate

11:50

commitments across the value chain ? Is

11:53

it to evolve the business model with convergence

11:55

of different models ? Do we know ? I talked about resale

11:57

, rental , but there's also , like marketplaces

12:00

, one that's increasingly

12:02

really interesting . Really important is how

12:04

people monetize their tech capabilities

12:07

and their data assets . You seeing people

12:09

talk a lot more about B2B plays

12:11

and I think actually

12:14

it was in the press with us this morning

12:16

on this whole monetizing your data

12:18

.

12:20

Yeah , there was some bits I was reading yesterday in the paper

12:23

I think it was , that was test goes insane

12:25

trees about a future

12:27

world , potentially , where you're almost watching Netflix

12:30

and they are . There's somebody that's not . Those

12:32

organizations necessarily sold data

12:34

and then all of a sudden you're getting tailored Adds

12:37

within other applications

12:39

based on your shopping and buying preferences and

12:42

it's interesting .

12:43

We did some research on how people feel about that

12:45

. Is it creepy that you're being

12:48

followed , almost ? And the general

12:50

response to the younger shoppers

12:52

they don't mind as

12:54

long as it's useful and it's relevant

12:56

. What they don't like is when it's not .

12:59

Yeah , and you know you , there's still

13:01

that debate is no , not ? I don't know the answer

13:03

that you hear people say well , is is face

13:06

. But listening , because I search golf

13:08

balls on Amazon and all of a sudden I've

13:10

got golf ball adverts on Facebook

13:12

or Instagram , so that there's

13:14

an element to that . That's happening

13:17

kind of beneath the waves already . So

13:19

Taylor in , it feels maybe

13:21

like a step forward . But yeah , like you say , if it's

13:23

then a wash with content

13:25

that's irrelevant , it becomes

13:28

more dissatisfying than a benefit .

13:30

Yeah , definitely .

13:33

So lots to play for in that area from

13:35

a cost effectiveness point of view , but also from a

13:37

consumer point of view as well . I think that there's

13:39

loads to go out to simplify journeys

13:41

, to make sure we've got the right data

13:43

. For those bigger , maybe tech

13:46

purchases or high-end purchases We've

13:48

got the right information and we're confident

13:50

that we're going to spend that money . So I

13:52

think there's some really exciting stuff to

13:54

come in there .

13:57

Yeah , because I think the proximity to the customer

13:59

is going to be

14:01

more and more important because , as we look

14:03

into 2024 , we are in a low

14:05

growth environment , not just in the UK

14:08

but globally , and even potentially

14:11

might tip into recession in certain countries

14:13

. So really leveraging

14:16

the data in terms

14:18

of getting it right for the customer

14:20

and the right personalisation , but also for new

14:22

revenue streams , will be quite important

14:24

going into 2024

14:27

.

14:27

Yeah , absolutely , and finishing

14:29

2023, . We've had Black

14:31

Friday . At the time of recording , probably

14:34

almost a month ago , although it felt this

14:37

year a bit like Black Friday month

14:39

. My inbox started filling

14:41

up with Black Friday offers from the start of

14:43

November I think , and there's still when

14:45

you look online . Some organisations

14:47

have almost carried that sale

14:50

through . What are your thoughts

14:52

on Black Friday this year ?

14:54

It's really interesting . So Black Friday it

14:56

now gets called Black November and actually

14:59

the data does support that . People

15:01

this year started to promote

15:03

earlier but were a little

15:05

bit more selective on how

15:07

they discount maybe certain ranges

15:10

where potentially they've got

15:12

excess stock . But it's interesting

15:14

, the shopper told us that they were

15:16

less interested this year , from 61%

15:20

to 44% , which , if

15:22

you did the math , would imply quite a drop

15:24

in spending and

15:26

actually we're still waiting for some

15:28

data to come out . But if you actually look

15:30

at the BRC data , they

15:33

said in November sales were up 2.7%

15:36

, but food was up but non food down . So

15:38

I do think people pulled a little bit

15:40

back from Black Friday

15:42

this year and the reason they

15:44

said they were pulling back a bit was

15:46

actually it's a more difficult

15:49

job outlook . They're concerned about the cost

15:51

of living crisis and

15:53

the latent impact of interest rate rises

15:55

. But on the positive

15:58

, they also wanted to budget so

16:00

they could prioritise Christmas . So

16:03

, yes , people are more cautious , but

16:05

yes , I think Christmas is still very important to them

16:07

.

16:08

And do you think it kind of pulls

16:10

forward spend ? So it's not really

16:12

new spend ? Is it just people taking advantage

16:15

of the offers and it becomes

16:17

oh , I bought X , y and Z their Christmas

16:19

presents early in the sale , or are

16:21

people looking for a special deal

16:23

at that time ?

16:25

It's quite interesting what the statistics

16:27

tell us and what the shopper tells us is

16:30

. This year they were starting their

16:32

Christmas shopping early to help

16:34

budget , but still

16:36

the majority of spend is in the first

16:38

two to three weeks of December , so

16:41

we've still got a bit of time to play

16:43

for and , with Christmas Day being on a Monday

16:45

, that run up to the week before , I think will

16:47

be really important . When

16:50

you ask people why do they use Black

16:52

Friday , actually it's more about

16:54

the under 45 and men and

16:57

men prioritise buying for themselves and spending

16:59

on technology , while women

17:01

it's more about the family and its

17:04

technology , but also fashion and the start

17:06

of Christmas gifting . So I don't

17:08

think it's a massive Christmas

17:10

gifting area , but it is

17:12

now part of the calendar and people

17:14

are looking for discounts and we've almost got

17:16

like a double peak up to Christmas , which

17:18

we didn't have years ago . So

17:21

you used to , before Black Friday released off

17:24

in about 2013,

17:26

. You used to have sales

17:29

gradually increasing through November into

17:31

December , with some promotional activity

17:33

in December . Now you see a bit of a

17:35

peak in November . Then it comes off and people

17:37

tend to come off the majority come off promotion

17:39

and then you go back into motion . So

17:42

I think it's just part of people's

17:44

shopping habits and how they budget

17:47

for the year , but it's not really about

17:49

Christmas .

17:50

Yeah , yeah , and I think this year

17:52

more than ever , there's been lots of marketing

17:55

noise . It's been quite . I've found it as a consumer

17:57

quite difficult to understand if it's a good

17:59

deal for Black Friday

18:02

or if it's just a slightly incremental

18:04

deal , or actually if it's not a good deal but it's

18:06

marketed as a Black Friday deal

18:08

. So I think for me as a consumer

18:10

it's becoming more difficult to shop it because

18:13

there's so much more noise . It's less you

18:15

know people fighting for tellies in the supermarket

18:17

, more like you say , departmental

18:19

promotions or flash deals , but

18:21

difficult to understand the value .

18:24

I always say to people some of the big

18:26

players who

18:29

do promotional activity all year round it

18:31

might not be the best deal , it might just be one

18:33

of the deals that they do across the

18:35

year , but you might find it other times . I

18:38

think when you get to more of the mid-market , which

18:40

is a lot of what retailers are , I think

18:42

there are some genuine offers where you'll

18:44

see 25% off winter coats

18:46

or you'll see 25%

18:49

across the board . I

18:51

think they are genuine discounts

18:53

. But I'd

18:55

say , look , it might not be the lowest discount . So if

18:57

somebody's putting 25% off coats

18:59

but they're still over stocks in December

19:02

, that could be the end of December

19:04

or into January sales that could go to 50%

19:06

. So I say , look , you don't

19:08

know if it's the best offer , but I think

19:10

for majority of the market it is a

19:12

genuine offer .

19:14

Yeah , yeah , I agree , and a few

19:17

more organisations opting out this year

19:19

. So again , more high-end fashion

19:22

where you know it's a considered

19:24

purchase and a specialist purchase

19:26

so they don't necessarily need to discount . But

19:28

yeah , there seem to be a few more that would , we're

19:30

kind of saying , not , not for us .

19:32

I think they were . It was interesting . I think it was

19:34

more of a marketing ploy because you saw

19:36

a couple talk about green

19:39

Friday rather than black Friday , talking

19:41

about maybe secondhand and recycling

19:44

, and then you did see some

19:46

brands sort of making a stance . But we

19:48

actually saw a little bit more

19:51

of the luxury market than normal

19:53

engage in black Friday and

19:55

I think we have seen in the second

19:57

half of the year quite a slowdown in luxury

20:00

, in , in particular , aspirational luxury

20:02

rather than really high-end luxury . So

20:05

there was actually a few more participating

20:07

this year than we saw in prior years .

20:10

Interesting and Christmas

20:13

thoughts and predictions for 2024

20:16

. Where do you see us heading ?

20:17

Well , again , we do quite

20:19

a lot of research in the Golden Quarter , so we did

20:22

ask consumers what

20:24

are you going to spend at Christmas on presents

20:26

and festivities ? And actually

20:29

last year they spent 23

20:31

billion , and this year

20:33

it looks like they're telling us they're going to

20:35

spend 20 billion 13%

20:37

less and so it does sound like

20:40

people are getting concerned about cost living

20:42

crisis and they're going to spend less . Having

20:45

said that , I'm always a little

20:47

bit more optimistic because

20:50

, first of all , when we did the survey back in

20:52

September , 30% said they'd

20:54

spend less , and now that's dropped to 18%

20:56

. Last year they said they were going to spend

20:58

20 billion but spent 23

21:01

. I think for a couple of reasons probably

21:03

inflation , but also it was our first normal

21:05

Christmas post-COVID , and

21:07

when people together , they tend to spend more on

21:09

each other , so I think

21:11

that could happen again this year . So I

21:14

don't think it'd be as bad as consumers

21:16

say , because I think they will spend more than they think , particularly

21:19

because they do tell us they want to prioritise special

21:21

time with the family . But

21:24

I don't think we'll see much growth

21:26

and I do think it will be

21:28

quite different by different

21:30

categories . So I think I saw

21:32

a few articles over the weekend with

21:35

the grocery chain saying actually

21:37

they're expecting quite a decent Christmas . But

21:40

then I saw some others , maybe more

21:42

big ticket type areas , where

21:45

they're a little bit more cautious . So I

21:47

think it's all to play for , even though there's only a

21:49

couple of more weeks left as

21:52

we record this podcast . It's all to play for and

21:54

I do think it'd be better than expected , but I

21:56

don't think we'll see big growth .

21:58

And ultimately as a consumer , if you

22:00

can kind of tell in the January sales really you can tell

22:02

how well people have done or not

22:05

by the level of stock that's left , the

22:07

price cuts and the discounts that are given

22:10

. So it works within both ways almost

22:12

.

22:13

It does , and I think a lot of retailers

22:15

have got much more cautious

22:17

around their stock levels and

22:19

therefore knowing there's more volatility

22:22

in the market and managing them

22:24

better . But there will be some , like

22:26

some of the online players , possibly got caught out

22:28

by the fact that online has definitely come

22:30

back to trend . Rather than keep the COVID

22:33

wins and some of the big ticket areas

22:35

, you know they might see a bit more promotional

22:37

activity to drive that January big

22:39

ticket purchase .

22:41

And 2024 , what

22:43

are your thoughts as we kind of heading

22:45

to potentially a changing government ? We won't

22:47

get political , but it seems to be what

22:49

people think at the time of recording Maybe

22:53

recessions in different countries around

22:55

the world . So how do you think it's going

22:57

to look for us ?

23:00

It's interesting because across the

23:02

globe there's going to be slow

23:04

growth , so you're going to have to fight

23:06

very hard for share of wallet or share

23:08

of stomach , and

23:11

so it won't be an easy market . And

23:13

I do slightly worry and I mentioned

23:15

it last year but we didn't see it about a credit

23:17

card hangover into January if

23:20

people do spend a little bit more than

23:22

they expect . So I think

23:24

it will be unpredictable and

23:26

it will be a bit of a fight for

23:29

those pounds in your tails . So

23:31

I think it's going to be so important

23:33

about that proximity to

23:35

customer that I've already talked to , but

23:38

maybe more collaboration with your suppliers

23:40

, given that volatility and you need to have flexibility

23:44

, and I think people will

23:46

look very much about how can they build their

23:48

brand through expansions , through partnerships

23:51

, product launches or brand resets

23:53

to really try and engage the

23:55

consumer . But it's not going

23:57

to be an easy year , but

24:00

I think it will be one just of

24:02

quite low growth overall .

24:05

And typical cost

24:07

challenges will be prevalent . I assume , Like

24:10

you said at the kind of start of the podcast , job

24:12

markets flattening , which may be

24:14

a consequence of some of those cost

24:16

pressures , and do you see it being a market

24:18

of opportunity for kind of consolidation

24:21

in certain areas or

24:23

expansion for others ?

24:25

Yes , I mean we've seen for a while in

24:28

the UK a level of consolidation

24:30

we would never expected years

24:32

to go by . You mentioned Nex

24:34

at the beginning , but Nex M&S now

24:36

stock what were traditionally competitor

24:39

brands and you've

24:41

seen Nex be quite acquisitive They've just bought

24:43

Fatface . So

24:45

I do think you'll see the continuation

24:48

of the strong players

24:50

and platforms in the broader sense you

24:53

know buying into other brands Because

24:55

actually if you look at retail , retail margins

24:58

have halved over the last 15 years and therefore

25:00

retail margins are halved . You really need

25:02

to make your cost work very hard

25:04

for you and your infrastructure so you

25:06

can do that by more consolidation

25:09

. But as much about consolidation , about collaboration

25:11

and partnerships . So I think that's been

25:13

a trend for a while . That will definitely

25:15

continue and I

25:17

think at the beginning , while cost savings never go

25:19

away , you can't keep driving

25:22

through costs . So I think , even though it's

25:24

a low gross environment , people

25:27

will look to and retailers will look to grow

25:29

sales and look at their pricing and promotions

25:31

and ranging to try and sort

25:34

of drive incremental pounds in their

25:36

tail .

25:37

Yeah , yeah , I think you , you struggle to

25:39

save your way out of a recession

25:41

or borderline recession , don't you ? Yes

25:43

, you've got to invest for the future and Really

25:46

put your stamp on what makes you different . Otherwise you

25:48

kind of blend into the margins with everybody

25:51

else . So , yeah , I think , I think it'd be

25:53

interesting times . I personally , I don't think it's

25:55

as doom and gloom as maybe the pictures

25:57

of painting . I think there's opportunity there if , if

26:00

people are brave and I

26:02

can invest slightly or think creatively

26:04

, think differently about their customers

26:06

, how they serve them or all their uses of technology

26:08

. So I think you use the phrase

26:10

all to play for . I think twenty twenty four

26:13

is one of those all , all to play for years

26:15

where you know the brave

26:17

and the strong will will excel

26:20

. If you may be not as , not as brave and not

26:22

as strong , it might be more of a struggle

26:24

.

26:25

Yeah , and you've got to think of where

26:27

the pockets of growth so capitalizing on . You

26:30

know consumer behavior in terms

26:32

of what and how they want to buy

26:34

, the fact that health

26:36

and well being is prioritized

26:38

as well as pets and children

26:41

. And she

26:43

say integration , that emerging technology . So

26:45

there's always pockets of growth

26:47

and areas to go for

26:50

, and what you do to

26:52

the need to continue to invest

26:54

in those areas .

26:56

Excellent . So what will pause ? On that note

26:59

, at least it's been great to have your time . Thanks

27:01

for taking the time out to catch up . If people

27:03

wanna reach out to you , where's the best place to

27:05

find you ?

27:06

I see these is way to find me . I

27:08

say on linkedin , because

27:11

it has all my details and people can reach out

27:13

to me if they want to send me a message

27:15

and I , if people

27:18

reach out to link in with me

27:20

, I am very happy to do so we'll

27:22

put a link to your profile in the show notes just to make

27:25

that step a little bit easy .

27:26

But thanks once again . Really appreciate

27:28

your insights and love catching up .

27:30

Yeah , good speech assignment take

27:33

care .