0:05

Welcome to the Productivity Podcast . I'm

0:07

delighted today to be joined by Julie

0:09

Devlin , senior Partner

0:11

HCM Advisory at UKG and

0:14

has just been awarded a top

0:16

100 HR influencer title

0:19

. Hi , julie . Hi Simon

0:21

, Great to be here with you . Thanks

0:23

for coming on . I know you're busy traveling all over

0:25

the world . I think we're speaking and you're actually . We're

0:27

actually in the same country . You're in the UK at the moment , aren't you

0:29

?

0:31

I am in the UK . It's my first time here

0:33

in London and it's been fantastic

0:35

. Everyone's been so very kind

0:37

and really , really enjoying

0:40

my time here . So , yes , we are

0:42

in the same time zone , it appears .

0:45

Good . I'm not sure the weather's been that kind , but at least

0:47

us Brits are being kind , which is a

0:50

good thing . And congratulations

0:52

on your top 100 HR influencer . I think that's just

0:54

recently been announced , hasn't it ?

0:56

Yes , yes , it was quite the nice

0:58

surprise . It was by a company called

1:00

Engage Lee . They do an

1:02

annual list of top 100 HR influencers

1:05

in different categories and I was fortunate

1:07

enough to be named in the talent management category

1:10

and it was a very nice

1:12

surprise , very , very humbled

1:14

, to be among such esteemed

1:17

colleagues there or peers

1:19

, if you will not colleagues , peers

1:22

on that list . So

1:24

thank you for mentioning that .

1:26

No , problem , no problem , and you worked for UKG

1:29

. We've had a couple of your colleagues on

1:31

in previous episodes , but do you want to just remind

1:34

the listeners about what UKG

1:36

does and the kind of things industries you

1:38

help ?

1:39

Absolutely . We help all industries . We

1:42

are literally around

1:44

the world , a global company , and

1:47

we do everything

1:49

from hire to retire when it comes

1:51

to workplace technology

1:53

. So we're a cloud

1:56

based and really

1:59

onboarding , scheduling

2:02

, timekeeping , everything

2:05

and everything in between . We provide

2:08

the technology that workplaces can utilize

2:10

to really help their people

2:12

thrive .

2:13

And for those in the UK probably known

2:16

as Kronos for a good number of years before

2:18

the kind of marriage with Ultimate

2:22

. So for those of you that use Kronos , you'll have seen

2:24

it rebranded now UKG and for those

2:27

that didn't know Kronos , it was Kronos

2:29

before UKG . So there's the plotted history

2:31

.

2:32

Yes , yes , we merged over the pandemic

2:34

, which was not exactly ideal , but we

2:36

managed to take two six thousand person

2:38

companies and merge them completely

2:41

virtually , which is pretty amazing .

2:43

Absolutely , absolutely . Maybe

2:45

not what you plan to do again , and I'm sure

2:48

we're not planning for another pandemic , but

2:50

a good time to get it done , I suppose Absolutely

2:52

. So I know

2:54

your kind of world

2:57

is in that kind of HCM space

2:59

and one of the things I think would be interesting to

3:01

talk about is I suppose

3:04

you talked about the employee life cycle

3:06

that UKG helped with . From

3:08

some people call it cradle to grave . That may be

3:10

a bit pessimistic , but we're

3:12

certainly in the UK experiencing a really

3:14

strange time where

3:17

costs are rising . We

3:19

have national living wage and that's just been announced

3:21

It'll go to a minimum of 11 pounds

3:23

an hour from next April when our

3:25

tax year starts . Organisations

3:29

, regardless of type , I think , are experiencing

3:31

really high labour turnover

3:33

. Clearly mental health

3:35

and wellness at work is at a much bigger

3:38

angle now for all organisations

3:40

and individuals . I'm not sure

3:42

if you'll see in the same in the States , but I'll just kind

3:44

of leave it with one stat that I've

3:46

heard recently that for every

3:48

two employees that joined a

3:51

company in the UK retail

3:53

hospitality last year , more

3:55

than one left within 12 months .

3:58

Yes , that sounds very , very accurate

4:01

. In fact , I'm surprised

4:03

that it's that long of a

4:05

time . You know there are studies

4:07

out there and UKG has a

4:09

research arm that does global workplace

4:12

research . It's called WorkforceInstituteorg

4:15

. There are studies out there

4:17

that show that if folks don't

4:19

have a good onboarding experience

4:21

or don't have good workplace technology

4:24

, that they're going to leave the organization

4:27

within , say , 45

4:29

days to 90 days or so

4:32

. So , yes , the

4:34

turnover is absolutely an

4:37

issue . It transcends

4:40

international waters . I would say it's

4:44

absolutely something . And you know you

4:46

mentioned the employee

4:49

life cycle . I like to call

4:51

the employee journey

4:54

, but along that journey there are so

4:56

many moments that matter , and

4:58

moments that matter are

5:01

these snippets of time

5:03

that create a lasting emotional

5:06

impression on someone . And

5:08

there are so many of these that happen at

5:10

work that many of the either

5:12

whether it's HR or managers

5:15

, who's ever doing whatever

5:17

task it is , say , onboarding someone

5:19

or doing a performance review , or

5:21

teaching them how to clock in and clock

5:24

out we see that as

5:26

sort of a

5:28

part of our job . It's our job to teach someone

5:31

how to do that , but for them it's

5:34

a daily thing and it's something that actually

5:36

matters and it helps to shape their sentiment

5:39

regarding the workplace and

5:41

, in particular , whichever workplace

5:43

they're working for . You know

5:45

, there's always that old adage that no one really

5:47

remembers what you say to them , but they always remember

5:49

how they make you feel right

5:52

. It's all about those feelings and

5:54

I think that employees today , with

5:56

the workplace , feelings actually

5:58

matter more than probably ever .

6:01

Yeah , I agree , and I mean I've not got any stats

6:04

. But one of the things that's probably

6:06

not talked about in that whole transient

6:09

population of people that are coming and going seemingly

6:11

all the time at the moment in organizations is the

6:13

cost of recruitment , onboarding

6:16

, training , uniform exiting

6:19

, re recruiting . That that's

6:21

not free time , is it ? Leaders are doing

6:23

some of that head office now . We're doing some of that

6:25

with these kind of automated recruitment portal

6:27

, so it there's a big on

6:30

cost to having such big churn

6:32

, absolutely .

6:34

Yeah , yeah , we don't

6:37

recognize just how much it costs

6:39

to hire and then have to replace

6:42

an employee , and it's

6:44

it really , really does matter

6:47

the kind of experience that we're providing

6:49

these folks from day one

6:51

. And I would even go farther than that and say

6:54

what kind of experience are we providing

6:56

them before day one ? Because

6:59

there's a school of thought that onboarding

7:01

an organization starts

7:04

before that someone

7:06

even walks in the door . It starts with

7:08

the perception that someone

7:10

has of your organization . It

7:13

starts with your online , the

7:15

chatter that's going on online about your

7:17

organization . So I suggest

7:19

that organizations , folks

7:21

, who the stakeholders should should

7:23

always be aware of that conversation , both

7:26

good and bad , and do everything

7:28

that you can to control that conversation

7:30

online , because perception is reality

7:32

.

7:33

Yeah , and I think it's

7:35

one of those , isn't it ? If ? If you've got

7:37

those warning bells , alarm signals in your

7:40

head and let's call it the honeymoon period , because

7:42

before you've started , everything

7:44

it looks rosy , doesn't it ? The grass is green

7:46

and all that kind of stuff . A

7:48

friend of mine went to company's

7:50

names , applied for a role , and

7:53

he actually got an email that said sorry

7:55

, you're , you've not been successful to get

7:57

to the kind of final stage of this . Then he

7:59

had one half an hour later that said we're

8:01

delighted to invite you to the final stage of

8:03

this job , swiftly followed

8:05

by a phone call that said oh , we're really

8:08

sorry , we've sent the wrong emails to the wrong people

8:10

. And it a kind of his response

8:12

as well , which one's true , and thankfully

8:15

it was the one you threw to the next round . But

8:17

when we were chatting and he was telling

8:19

me this story , I was kind of if they

8:21

can't get that right at this stage

8:23

, what must that company be like to work

8:25

for when you're employed ?

8:28

That is a fantastic story and a perfect

8:30

example of how

8:32

things can go wrong . It's

8:36

these moments that matter . And

8:38

here's the thing you just proved

8:40

that this was not your experience . This was

8:42

your friend's experience . So

8:44

now you have . Whenever you think

8:46

of whatever organization that is , that

8:49

is the first impression that you

8:51

have of that organization . They didn't

8:53

have everything together . So you're right

8:55

, how could they , how could the rest of

8:57

the employee journey be

8:59

be good if

9:02

they can't get that right ? You know , there's another big

9:04

problem that's going on today with

9:07

organizations ghosting

9:09

applicants , meaning

9:12

meaning ghosting them

9:14

and basically just

9:17

not even giving

9:19

a reply or or

9:21

reaching back out to someone who applies for

9:23

a job and maybe

9:26

asking a few questions and then they'll never be

9:28

heard from again , so that

9:30

that again , you know , shapes people's opinion

9:33

of organizations .

9:35

Yeah , and it made me wonder if there was somebody unfortunately

9:38

else who'd had a yes you threw to the next

9:40

round of this job . That actually

9:42

wasn't . So if they mixed it one way , could they have mixed

9:44

it up the other , which is probably an even more awkward conversation

9:47

? Oh , absolutely yeah , that would be terrible

9:49

. And I think again we

9:52

talked on different podcasts around the different generations

9:54

in the in the workforce Baby

9:57

boomers , x , y , z coming through

9:59

to , to alpha in the near future

10:01

when they start to enter the workplace and I

10:03

think you touched on it before there's there's this expectation

10:06

and I think that's the right word of really

10:08

some I'd call it hygiene factors that

10:11

I expect as an employee now . So

10:13

I probably expect my pay slip to be

10:15

online and to be able to look at it whenever I want

10:17

. I expect a workforce management solution

10:19

to give me my schedules on an app

10:21

to be able to shift , swap , shift bid . More

10:24

increasingly over in the UK and I'm

10:27

sure it's probably a bit more advanced in the States is this kind

10:29

of pay on demand . So I'm going to actually

10:31

shift for you tomorrow and I can pull down

10:33

the pay maybe the day after . So organizations

10:37

that aren't working towards that , or

10:40

don't already have that in place , I suspect to suffering

10:42

even more with this high

10:44

level of churn that we're experiencing .

10:46

Absolutely . In a day and age where I

10:49

can purchase a car with my

10:51

cell phone with just a few clicks

10:53

, I don't want to have to go back in time at

10:55

work when it comes to my workplace technology

10:58

we don't

11:00

think of . A lot of times organizations

11:02

don't put enough emphasis on just how

11:04

important a good HR

11:07

tech stack is for

11:09

organizations . Again , going

11:11

back to that employee journey and those moments that

11:13

matter along the way , all of those

11:15

touch points create that lasting impression

11:17

. If I have to struggle

11:19

or if the software that I'm utilizing

11:21

isn't effective , that's going to

11:23

hurt productivity Because

11:25

I'm going to be spending time figuring out how

11:28

do I get someone to cover my shift if

11:30

I'm unable to do it , if I have to go through

11:32

three or four folks to even get

11:35

the answer to that question . Giving

11:39

employees obviously with the cell phones

11:41

and everything we are all used

11:45

to that autonomy where

11:47

we're able to do things on our own . I

11:50

think that , putting an emphasis

11:52

, it goes beyond HR software

11:54

Really all of the technology that we're providing

11:56

to our employees from a tool's

11:58

perspective is

12:00

important . I think that a

12:04

lot of people that I speak to and I have

12:06

the good fortune of talking to HR professionals

12:08

and business professionals across the

12:10

world . They

12:12

always say , or I always ask

12:14

do your employees have the tools that they need to

12:17

get their job done ? It always

12:19

gives people pause . Because my next

12:21

question is in

12:23

your head . You say , yes , my employees have

12:25

what they need to get their job done efficiently

12:27

and effectively . My

12:30

next question is how do you know ? When

12:33

is the last time you surveyed or

12:35

talked better , yet had a conversation

12:38

with employees as to whether or not

12:40

they have the tools and technology they need to

12:42

get their job done ? Because

12:45

when we're talking about hiring and we're talking

12:47

about onboarding and that kind of thing , having

12:50

a good system in place with that and good technology

12:53

with that will increase time to productivity

12:55

. But it's not just

12:57

increasing the time to productivity , it's the productivity

13:00

itself . And is that relevant on

13:02

an ongoing basis ?

13:04

Yeah , and I think the one thing and

13:07

clearly we should acknowledge that some of

13:09

these solutions in big organizations

13:11

are expensive and difficult to do

13:14

on scale but nonetheless are becoming

13:16

easier and easier as technology becomes

13:18

more applyable the cloud ways

13:21

of rolling out and communicating with frontline

13:23

colleagues , but we shouldn't shy

13:25

away from if your colleagues

13:27

aren't productive , they're probably spending less time

13:29

with customers , therefore

13:31

less opportunity to sell . Motivation

13:34

is probably not great so therefore they're

13:36

more likely to leave . So

13:38

if we think about the end game , it's around . I

13:40

think most organizations would recognize

13:42

if you have on the whole because

13:45

not everybody's always going to be happy a happy

13:47

consensus of colleagues

13:49

that typically relates

13:51

to good experiences for customers and all

13:54

then the halo effect of less

13:56

churn , therefore less recruitment

13:59

, therefore less of that invisible cost .

14:01

Absolutely , and you know , simon , you mentioned

14:04

earlier employee expectations

14:06

and how employee expectations have changed

14:08

. The pandemic shifted a

14:11

lot of things , but I think it's important for us

14:13

to recognize that even prior

14:15

to the pandemic , employee expectations

14:17

were shifting . There's a concept

14:19

that I talk often

14:21

about called the psychological contract at work

14:24

, and for those listening , you may or may not

14:26

be familiar with it . It's that exchange

14:28

relationship between the employer and the employee

14:31

as a concerns mutual expectations

14:33

of fairness and balance . So

14:36

, in layman's terms , are you , as

14:38

the employer , providing me with what

14:40

I'm expecting as the employee , and

14:42

vice versa ? It's

14:45

a two-way street . It's an unspoken contract

14:47

, unwritten contract , not something you could see , not

14:49

something you could sign , but it makes up

14:51

everything when it comes to the employment

14:54

relationship . And whenever that contract

14:56

or those expectations are out of balance

14:59

, organizations need to work harder

15:01

to try and put it back into

15:03

balance , and that has to do much

15:05

with communication and

15:08

many , many other factors . So

15:11

if we think of the workplace , if we think of work

15:13

as an iceberg and we look , we think about what's

15:15

above that line , that water line

15:17

, the things that we see . We generally

15:20

see work and pay , and those things are

15:22

generally agreed upon . Whether they are

15:24

happy , that's another story , but they're generally

15:26

agreed upon when someone's hired

15:28

. But if you think about everything that's underneath

15:31

that iceberg from the hours

15:33

worked by the employee or the safety and

15:35

the security provided by the employer , or

15:38

the benefits offered by the employer

15:41

or the I

15:43

mean , you name it the extra

15:45

time that someone is putting in on certain

15:48

tasks those are the things

15:50

that really make up the employee and

15:52

the employer relationship , those things that we can't

15:54

see underneath the iceberg .

15:56

Absolutely . And , as you said

15:58

, that kind of shift started pre-pandemic

16:01

, as maybe intensified post-pandemic

16:04

onwards . And what does the future look like

16:06

? So in your conversations , where

16:09

do you see things heading ? Is

16:11

it just kind of iterations on what we do

16:13

today , or is there going to be some seismic shifts

16:15

somewhere ?

16:17

Well , I wish I had a crystal ball to , but

16:20

if I had to guess , based

16:22

on what we've experienced , I think

16:24

there will be more seismic shifts . Except

16:26

those seismic shifts happen

16:28

to , they happen to be

16:31

sort of over time . It's not

16:33

. It's not an all in one snap your fingers . I mean

16:35

, if we think about the pandemic , work changed

16:37

overnight . But since

16:39

then and since there's been the whole

16:41

return to office movement and everything what

16:43

employers are seeing is that

16:45

expectations have shifted

16:47

. From the perspective

16:50

of organizations

16:52

or employees , their

16:55

priorities have changed . The

16:57

pandemic revealed a lot of

16:59

different things for people from a personal

17:02

level and especially revealed

17:04

the importance of their time and

17:06

where they're spending their time and where they're not spending

17:08

their time . So I think as employers

17:11

, we need to make sure that we are

17:13

giving folks a reason to want

17:15

to spend time at work and

17:17

treating them from a human perspective

17:19

. Because if we

17:22

can no longer , as employers , look

17:24

at the person as just the worker

17:26

, we have to recognize that the shift

17:28

between , or the balance

17:31

of , work life that's really generally

17:33

a myth the work life balance , with our 24

17:36

seven culture and our 24

17:38

seven connectivity . Unfortunately

17:41

, those lines have been so blurred it's

17:43

almost hard to talk about . Oh , you just

17:45

need to have work life balance or whatever . That

17:47

is because work life balance for

17:49

me may look a little bit different than work

17:51

life balance for you , for example , because

17:54

all of us , I always say , over the

17:57

pandemic and even prior

17:59

to and now , we were all in

18:01

the same boat in terms of what we were going

18:03

through from a societal

18:05

perspective . But not all of us were in the

18:07

same kind of boat . You had some

18:09

folks who were in a yacht and

18:11

had and were able to thrive during that

18:13

time . You had some folks in a speedboat

18:16

. Things were just going too quickly , heck . You

18:18

have some folks who have lost the life jacket

18:20

a long time ago and are just trying to tread water

18:22

. So when we see , we hear these cliches

18:25

oh , we're all in this together , and that kind of thing , I

18:27

think it's important for us to recognize no

18:29

, we're not all in this together in the same

18:31

kind of way . And that

18:33

goes back to the mental health conversation

18:35

too . I think that's important to

18:37

touch on .

18:39

Yeah , absolutely , I think it's . It's

18:43

going to be an interesting time , isn't it ? And I'm part

18:45

of me wonders whether we see a pivot

18:47

and everybody who's working

18:49

at home or hybrid and ends up in next

18:51

year's time working back in the office because we've

18:54

all lost the human touch , if

18:56

that makes sense and virtual meetings

18:58

have taken over and and

19:01

how that impacts kind of again mental

19:03

health , or if it draws

19:05

the other way and actually offices are just some

19:08

thing of the past that we've we've left behind

19:10

, and unless you're a frontline worker

19:12

in a customer facing organization , you kind

19:14

of almost accept the fact you

19:16

rarely , if ever , see some of the peers

19:19

that you work with .

19:20

Yes , and I think one of the things that

19:22

we lost over the pandemic is

19:25

or we were , it was amplified

19:28

just how important the social interaction

19:30

that we get from work , how much that

19:32

provides to our lives . And

19:36

there are some schools of thought out there

19:38

and some things that I've read that have talked about

19:40

this loneliness epidemic . So

19:42

it's like we companies

19:45

are asking folks to return to

19:47

the office , and I think that's partly

19:50

because you

19:53

know , we have to get back to that

19:55

human to human conversation

19:58

. Technology is fantastic

20:00

and it has enabled us to thrive and continues

20:03

to enable us to thrive , but

20:05

and to work across international

20:07

borders and time zones , etc . But

20:10

I think there's something to be said about innovation

20:12

and productivity when you get people in a

20:14

room . You mentioned generations earlier . I

20:17

used to think of generations as other . I've

20:20

done presentations in the past

20:22

, but I've stopped thinking of them

20:24

that way . My whole thought on generations has

20:26

shifted generations at work . I believe

20:28

that having more generations at work

20:31

is a stark

20:33

positive , because when you get people

20:35

in a room who have different backgrounds

20:37

, who have been at a company with different for

20:39

different amounts of time , who have , you

20:41

know , have seen it all , and then you have people who are

20:44

new , who've seen nothing . That's

20:46

where innovation thrives , because you can have those conversations

20:49

and talk about what has worked in the past

20:51

, and then you can bring new ideas to the fold

20:53

. The idea , though , is that we have

20:55

to be willing to listen to people , and

20:58

, again , you know , I think there's a lot of opportunity

21:01

there for organizations

21:03

to lean into the power

21:05

of generational differences . Rather

21:07

than you know , the

21:09

boomers not getting along with Gen Z

21:11

, etc .

21:13

Yeah , and I still get back to , regardless

21:16

of organization , the best

21:18

, I'd say the best . Probably pandemic

21:21

is going to disprove exactly what I'm about to say now

21:23

. But some of the

21:25

best ideas are

21:27

the ones by the coffee machine or

21:29

when you inadvertently walk past

21:31

somebody in the corridor in the office and say

21:34

, oh , I meant to speak to you about so and so and

21:36

that kind of off the cuff conversation

21:38

that some planned unscripted . We

21:40

seem to have got into a world that's very

21:43

meeting , virtual

21:45

meeting , orientated . There's not much

21:47

chat , prayer or poster meeting

21:50

because your conscious you've overrun and you're on

21:52

your next one . Whether the magic happened

21:54

in those bits .

21:56

Yes , and some of the arguments from employees

21:58

who have been asked to return to the office is

22:01

okay , I'm going to come to the office

22:03

and I'm still on virtual meetings , so

22:06

what is the point ?

22:08

Yeah , I've seen

22:10

that way . We've been to meetings

22:12

and it's been deemed a face to face because

22:14

it's important , and you get there , and then it's

22:17

going to all so and so and so and so and so and so we're dialing

22:19

in and it's kind of 50%

22:21

of the audience aren't here now . The point was we'd

22:24

all be in one place and , from

22:27

a practical productivity point of view , yes

22:29

, less time traveling . Therefore

22:31

you can do more work , which is good or

22:33

bad thing , I suppose debate from

22:36

an environmental point of view , less fossil fuels

22:38

and less travel and petrol or train or whatever

22:40

. So there's always that

22:42

balance to find , isn't there ? But yeah , I've

22:44

seen that quite a lot recently

22:46

of face to face meetings , but then

22:48

it ends up being online as well . So

22:51

you question the effort everybody's

22:53

made , or the ones that have made to get there have put

22:55

in the effort .

22:57

Yeah , and what I find is that when we

22:59

talk about return to office , companies have

23:01

not done a great job

23:03

explaining the why to employees . They

23:06

just were like , okay , well , okay

23:08

, it's over , so you have to come back to the office

23:10

. Not these are the reasons we need

23:12

you to come back to the office , and I think

23:14

that companies will be well positioned

23:17

and really gain more trust

23:19

from employees and more buy-in for coming

23:21

back to the office if they were

23:23

able to explain the why's . Even if

23:26

that why is because we have

23:28

a very expensive lease for our office building , at

23:30

least that's saying something , and

23:33

I think that that transparency goes a long way .

23:36

Yeah , I agree . And again I

23:38

think , whether you've seen it or not , in London this week

23:40

there's that whole . I

23:43

work from home probably Thursday , friday , come

23:45

in the office Monday , tuesday , wednesday , so from again

23:48

local coffee

23:50

shops and restaurants . Their

23:53

world's being decimated by the fact that in these

23:55

big cities they've probably got three

23:57

days of trade and then it

23:59

kind of flat lines . Maybe over the weekend you

24:01

get tourists , but it must be difficult

24:04

to manage the kind of whole ecosystem around

24:06

that as well .

24:08

Absolutely . There is so many

24:10

repercussions from employers

24:14

going completely virtual

24:16

or even hybrid

24:18

, like you mentioned . The

24:20

ripple effect really does have an

24:22

impact on so many other folks

24:24

.

24:25

Absolutely Well . I know you're busy , so

24:28

appreciate your time and I'll

24:30

let you get back to exploring London , but

24:32

it's been fascinating to meet and catch

24:34

up , Julie . We'll put your

24:37

LinkedIn profile on the show

24:39

notes . If people want to find out more

24:41

, they can get in touch directly , and hope

24:44

you enjoy the rest of your time in London .

24:45

Thank you so much , fantastic conversation

24:48

, I appreciate it .