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Hey, listeners. Today we're sharing a past

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0:21

Hey, everyone. It's Adam Grant. Welcome

0:23

back to Rethinking, my podcast on the science

0:25

of what makes us tick. I'm

0:28

an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you

0:30

inside the minds of fascinating people to

0:32

explore new thoughts and new ways of

0:34

thinking. My

0:37

guest today is Brené Brown. As

0:39

a social work professor, Brené has

0:42

spent two decades studying vulnerability, courage,

0:44

shame, and empathy. She

0:47

hosts two podcasts, Unlocking Us and Dare

0:49

to Lead. And she's

0:51

the bestselling author of books including

0:53

Daring Greatly, The Gifts of Imperfection,

0:55

and Rising Strong. Brené's

0:59

TED Talk is one of the most watched ever with

1:01

over 50 million views. One

1:04

of the big reasons it was such a

1:06

sensation is that she models what vulnerability looks

1:08

like. I'm going in. I'm

1:11

going to figure this stuff out. I'm going to spend a year. I'm

1:14

going to understand how vulnerability works, and I'm going

1:16

to outsmart it. As

1:18

you know, it's not going to turn out well. I've

1:23

long been fascinated with the power of

1:25

vulnerability and impressed with the power

1:27

of Brené's insights. I'm excited

1:29

to learn from her about the nuances of vulnerability

1:31

at work, especially in places where

1:33

it seems risky. I

1:37

will say from one introvert to another,

1:39

I cannot stand small talk. I love

1:41

conversations that go deep right away. And

1:45

you are the queen of going deep and

1:47

being vulnerable. So I feel like I have

1:49

extra permission to do that here. I'm

1:51

the queen of vulnerability, and I'm

1:53

the assistant queen of boundaries.

1:56

So we'll see. Let's go as deep as

1:58

we can go, and then we'll see. So

2:00

I guess the place I want to start for now is to

2:02

say that you have convinced millions

2:04

and millions of people that vulnerability is

2:06

not a sign of weakness. It can

2:08

actually be a source of strength and

2:10

of connection. And yet,

2:13

so many people struggle to be vulnerable at

2:16

work, and they decide to put on armor

2:18

instead. And I wondered, just

2:20

for starters, if you could talk a little bit

2:22

about why people feel special pressure to put armor

2:24

on at work and what kinds of armor they

2:26

wear. Yeah.

2:29

So I hope what the work

2:31

does, and I hope what I do is help

2:33

people dispel the mythology about vulnerability. I

2:35

think that's such an important place to

2:37

start, that there's this idea

2:39

that vulnerability is weakness. I

2:42

think most of us were raised with that, that

2:45

kind of ethos, like self-protect,

2:47

be careful, don't put yourself out there. I

2:50

mean, vulnerability is very

2:53

simply defined as uncertainty,

2:55

risk, and emotional exposure.

2:58

It's the affector emotion we feel in

3:01

times of great uncertainty, risk, and emotional

3:03

exposure just means I put myself out there.

3:07

And so the first thing we have

3:09

to do is dispel that notion. We

3:12

are raised to believe it's important to be

3:14

brave, but then we're taught not to

3:16

be vulnerable. And

3:18

they're really, based

3:20

on my research and our

3:22

data, there just is no courage

3:25

without vulnerability. I tell

3:27

the story of asking a group

3:30

of soldiers a very simple question, give

3:32

me an example of courage in

3:34

your life or an example

3:37

of courage that you've observed in someone else that

3:39

did not require uncertainty,

3:41

risk, or emotional exposure. And

3:45

I think I was at Fort Bragg and

3:47

there was just absolute silence until one guy

3:49

stood up and said, three tours, ma'am, there

3:52

is no courage without

3:54

vulnerability. Then a week

3:56

later, I'm doing work with Pete Carroll

3:58

and the Seattle Seahawks. We're

4:00

talking about vulnerability. I asked the same question

4:02

to that group of players. Give me an

4:04

example of courage on the

4:07

field or off that doesn't require vulnerability. And it

4:09

was so funny to me because they had to

4:11

huddle for a minute. And then they

4:13

kind of came back and said,

4:16

there is no courage without vulnerability,

4:18

not on or off the field. If

4:20

you're not all in, if you're not putting yourself out there,

4:23

you just can't be brave. And so I

4:26

think the job is dispelling the mythology

4:30

about vulnerability as weakness. At

4:33

work, I think we

4:35

armor up more because there's less

4:37

trust, there's less confidence. And

4:39

I think we slip into kind of who we

4:41

think we're supposed to be at work. And

4:45

we armor up using things like cynicism,

4:47

perfectionism, needing to be the knower

4:49

and be right versus the learner

4:51

and get it right. There

4:54

are a lot of forms of armor that

4:57

can sometimes be rewarded

4:59

at work. I think that's

5:01

so true. I love your

5:03

observation that people will use expertise

5:06

or performance as armor at work.

5:09

And it really struck

5:11

a chord with me on a very deep level because

5:13

I don't want to get too

5:17

psychoanalytic here. But I have this defining

5:19

experience, I guess, in many ways when

5:22

I was 12 where all of my

5:25

close friends dropped me because I wasn't cool enough for them.

5:29

And I never really realized until you started

5:31

talking about performance as armor that my way

5:34

of coping with that experience was

5:36

to try to be exceptionally good at whatever

5:38

I did because then people would respect me

5:41

or look up to me or like me.

5:44

And so first it was in sports saying, okay, if

5:46

I can excel in diving, then I'll have earned

5:49

a badge or some admiration

5:51

and maybe I'll be accepted as opposed

5:53

to rejected. And then I got

5:55

to college and started to redefine my identity around

5:57

excellence in school, which is a great thing.

6:00

which was something that then got reinforced. And then

6:02

over time, it felt like

6:04

every single project I took on was

6:07

one where I knew I could excel. And

6:09

that way, I was just fortifying my armor

6:11

more and more. And I

6:13

started to feel like this is a mistake. And

6:15

I'm missing out on opportunities for learning and

6:18

for challenging myself and stretching myself.

6:20

And so I'd love to get

6:22

your reactions on this idea of,

6:25

for those of us who are so accustomed

6:27

to treating excellence or expertise

6:29

as our armor, how do

6:31

we let go of that? Well, first of

6:34

all, I have to say that your story of when you were

6:36

12 is real trauma.

6:38

I mean, that's trauma. And

6:41

yes, there are different kinds of trauma and different

6:43

sizes of the bucket. But when

6:45

you're 12, it's all about

6:47

belonging. And I think I

6:50

have the same story. I was 13,

6:52

not 12, but I have a very similar story.

6:55

But I just got really good at smoking cigarettes

6:57

and being wild, which was probably

6:59

not the best thing to pick. But

7:02

we all have stories like that.

7:04

And we build our armor around

7:06

those stories. And no one

7:08

talks about the big developmental milestone of

7:11

midlife, which can happen, I think, anywhere

7:13

between our late 30s and probably mid-50s, which

7:17

is the armor that we

7:19

put on to protect us when

7:22

we were children and had less agency

7:24

and less control over

7:27

what was happening. That armor

7:29

no longer serves us. And it

7:31

is heavy. And what it

7:33

actually does is prevent us from

7:36

being seen and prevent us from growing into

7:38

areas. Because that armor doesn't grow with us.

7:40

It stays kind of the same size, I

7:42

think. And so

7:46

for me, I kind of

7:49

switched armor when

7:51

I moved from being kind of the loud party girl

7:53

to, OK, this

7:55

is scary, but I'm going to try to be the

7:57

smart kid. And that worked. And I was rewarded for

7:59

it. then I went

8:01

I moved solidly into a life

8:03

of Proving

8:08

performing perfecting until

8:11

I actually physically

8:14

and emotionally couldn't do it anymore and

8:18

so I think

8:20

again the big challenge of midlife is

8:23

The armor that we're carrying the armor that

8:25

were you know That's got us locked in

8:27

and the weapons that we're carrying that kept

8:30

us safe at some point What

8:32

is okay to let go of because it's no

8:34

longer serving and then how do we peel it

8:36

off? Which is the scary part? you

8:39

know, I do think that as I

8:42

peeled mine off and it that was work I

8:44

did with a therapist and now I'm Constantly

8:47

trying new things that I don't know whether I'm gonna be good

8:49

at or not and I am

8:52

failing You know

8:54

on occasion, you know, but feels but

8:56

now that I've changed the goal to

9:00

stretching and learning instead

9:03

of proving and perfecting

9:07

It feels so different. Does that make sense?

9:09

It does it resonates and I've I guess

9:11

I've I've gone through a similar shift in

9:13

saying look I want to

9:16

be the kind of person who takes

9:18

on projects that matter Yes, and where

9:20

I have the potential to contribute something

9:22

meaningful and even if I fail

9:24

at least I didn't fail to try That's

9:27

right. Yes, and I have let me tell you

9:29

Adam. I have I've taken on a couple things

9:31

in the last several years Where

9:34

I have just failed But

9:37

I don't regret

9:39

it. I Don't regret

9:41

it. That's such a great place to

9:43

be and Part of I guess

9:45

part of what I've been wondering is as I've been Applying

9:48

applying your work to my own life and

9:51

also talking in class about it quite a

9:53

bit So just just a

9:55

little bit of backstory every

9:57

year I have students at the undergrad level apply to my

9:59

class And one of the questions

10:01

is, what's your favorite TED Talk? Yours

10:03

is every year one of the top picks.

10:06

Yay! I think one of the

10:08

things that jumped out at me after the first

10:10

few years was it was mostly women who were

10:12

naming you as their favorite talk. And

10:15

I'm wondering, I'm sure some of this, of course, is men

10:17

tend to choose male role models, women tend to

10:19

choose female, but it also

10:21

seems like vulnerability is easier

10:23

for women to process and maybe adopt.

10:26

And it's something men struggle a lot more with. And I

10:29

wondered if you could talk about what you found

10:31

in your research there and a little bit of

10:33

the psychology of why men struggle so much with

10:35

vulnerability. I have moved from talking

10:37

about men and women just to talking about

10:39

folks who are trying to meet masculine

10:42

norms and folks trying to meet feminine norms

10:44

just to be more inclusive. But here's

10:46

the thing, in

10:49

terms of masculine norms, the biggest

10:51

shame trigger is do

10:53

not be perceived as weak. So

10:57

just think about that calculus for a second.

10:59

I'm asking people to be vulnerable. 99%

11:01

of them are raised to believe that vulnerability

11:04

is weakness. And they

11:06

know in their heart that they'll experience

11:08

shame if they're perceived as weak. And

11:10

that's so it becomes a very big

11:12

ask for people who really value complying

11:17

with masculine norms. In

11:22

terms of women and feminine

11:24

norms, the number one shame

11:26

trigger is perfection.

11:29

Do not be perceived as imperfect.

11:31

Do it all, do it well,

11:33

never let them see you sweat. So

11:36

now I'm saying, hey, I want you to be

11:38

vulnerable about your setbacks and your

11:40

failures and where you're struggling and

11:42

your emotions. So

11:44

really the biggest barrier

11:47

to vulnerability

11:51

is shame, the fear of shame.

11:55

The fear that I'm gonna put myself out there and

11:57

I'm gonna find myself Experiencing

12:00

the definition we use it for shame

12:02

is the incredibly

12:04

painful experience of believing or

12:07

feeling that we are unworthy. That

12:10

were flawed and unworthy of loving belonging and

12:12

connection and so you can

12:14

see how vulnerability is a really big

12:17

ask. It's a really big

12:19

ask. It's so interesting

12:21

your analysis reminds me of the the

12:23

boston and vandello work on precarious manhood

12:26

which. It is a

12:28

good look in a problem with

12:30

most definitions of masculinity or masculine

12:32

cultures is. We

12:34

have to demonstrate it over and over and

12:36

over again and so no matter how

12:38

many times you proven your strength if

12:41

you show just one tiny bit of weakness

12:43

then all the sudden you're no longer a

12:45

man or you're no longer strong. I

12:47

don't know if you've been reading any of that work. Well

12:50

I found it by asking some folks in

12:52

my research team what is an alternative to

12:54

toxic masculinity. Interesting as a phrase

12:57

because I'm not sure that phrase is

13:00

helpful. I am so with you hate

13:02

the phrase it's it's always bothered me

13:04

just to the basic level because it

13:07

seems to apply that masculinity is inherently

13:09

toxic as opposed to what you

13:11

said which is there's a there's a brand or

13:13

a flavor of masculinity that can be toxic and.

13:16

I guess I came to wondering is that

13:18

part of the reason why why

13:21

you see so many men motivated to armor up

13:23

at work because they have to keep proving their

13:25

strength over and over again. This

13:28

is super interesting and this is I'm like this

13:30

is me thinking out loud with you just spitballing

13:32

right now. Why

13:34

is vulnerability. So

13:38

much. More

13:42

difficult to

13:44

talk about with men

13:47

in suits. Organizations

13:50

are hoodies and jeans because I work in

13:52

Silicon Valley a lot right why

13:54

is it more difficult to talk about with

13:56

them that it is with. trauma

14:01

surgeons and firefighters and

14:05

military and professional

14:07

athletes. And

14:09

I guess this hypothesis that's

14:11

forming in my head right now, which, you know,

14:13

who knows if it's right or not, would

14:16

be where masculinity is, you

14:18

know, where that kind of

14:23

strength is seen every day

14:25

on the pitch or on the

14:27

football field or in their jobs, they're

14:30

not having to prove it so often because it's

14:32

part of what they do. Wow.

14:34

That they're more open to those conversations.

14:37

Do you know what I'm saying? That is so fascinating. Right.

14:40

So if I'm a firefighter, everybody knows I'm a badass.

14:44

So if I break

14:46

down outside of a burning building

14:48

into tears, I've established already that

14:50

I'm tough and I can handle

14:52

extreme crises and difficult situations. Whereas

14:55

if I'm a software engineer in

14:57

Silicon Valley or I'm a trader

14:59

on Wall Street, I haven't

15:01

been able to demonstrate my strength in the same way. Is

15:04

that what you're getting at? Yeah, I mean, it's what

15:06

I'm getting at because I mean, it's totally what I'm getting

15:08

at because I'm thinking to this moment

15:10

where I'm on an Air Force base talking to

15:12

a general, doing a lot of work with, and

15:14

these are like serious, serious ass people like

15:17

these are fighter pilot kind of folks, right? And

15:20

before we got started, he and I are talking about the work and

15:22

I said, you know, one of the things that's going to be really

15:24

interesting is I want to talk about care

15:27

and connection, our

15:29

irreducible needs when

15:32

we lead, meaning we have to care for

15:34

and be connected to the people we lead

15:36

or we can't do it effectively. And

15:40

up until that point, I had so much

15:42

pushback from people like that's bullshit. I'm not

15:44

here to like you. I'm here to lead

15:46

you. And this general turned

15:49

toward me and

15:51

said, from the highest

15:53

ranks of the Air Force, we

15:56

believe you cannot lead

15:58

people that you do. not feel

16:00

affection toward. Which

16:04

I think takes care and connection a little another step.

16:07

Affection is a bigger word, right, in my book. And

16:10

I said, huh? And he goes, yeah, that's

16:12

just common. If you cannot find

16:14

a way to feel affection for people you

16:16

lead, then we need to move them out

16:19

of your direct report line. You

16:21

know, as you walk through some of these stories

16:24

and examples, what seems

16:26

to set apart the context where

16:29

even tough masculine leaders appreciate the

16:31

importance of vulnerability and affection, is

16:34

they're doing work with heavy emotional demands.

16:36

Yes. Whereas, I mean,

16:39

I can, I'm sure you know, and I also

16:41

know some very successful people

16:43

in knowledge work who have

16:45

managed to pull off a

16:47

pretty extraordinary career without ever really

16:49

having to take off the mask

16:53

and show what they're really feeling. And so, is

16:55

there something also built into the work, in

16:58

addition to the fact that you get to prove your

17:00

strength, that you can't hide

17:02

from the emotions altogether? Yeah,

17:05

and I think the thing that I would ask, I

17:07

would ask the great contributions that they made

17:09

without taking off the mask, how much greater

17:11

could they have been? What

17:14

changes could they have made? Had they

17:16

had that combination of intellect plus

17:20

humanity? And

17:23

you know, reading Think Again was

17:25

a catalyst for me re-examining

17:29

my bad

17:32

assumption that we're all

17:34

hungry for brave leadership. Thank

17:37

you, Brené. I'm honored that you read my

17:39

book Think Again, let alone that it struck a chord.

17:42

It kind of grabbed me by the shoulders and

17:44

gave me a little shake, like a big shake

17:46

actually. I

17:48

don't think we can make the mistake of

17:51

assuming that everyone wants brave leadership. Because

17:55

brave leadership puts demands on

17:57

people to also be

17:59

courageous. courageous, to also

18:02

be self-aware, to

18:04

also put more importance on getting

18:06

things right than being right. I

18:09

don't think brave leadership for the

18:12

leader or for the people

18:14

who are being led is for the

18:17

faint of heart. So I'm not so

18:19

sure that everyone wants courageous leadership.

18:22

And that's

18:24

a tough thing, don't you think? Yeah, I

18:27

agree. I think the first thing that jumps to mind

18:29

is I read some research earlier this week showing that

18:32

when leaders have employees who are

18:34

courageous and daring, that

18:36

sometimes they feel like that gives

18:38

them a pass. And

18:41

they say, okay, you know, my people have got this. And

18:44

so I don't have to demonstrate the same integrity, which

18:46

of course is the exact opposite of what you would want

18:48

to see. And it goes to something I've been

18:51

wondering about that your work has really pushed me to think a

18:53

lot about, which is if I'm

18:56

an employee who believes in the value of

18:58

courage and vulnerability, but I have a boss

19:00

or a leader who doesn't get it, how

19:03

do I manage up? I mean, obviously

19:05

in an ideal world, I would just leave. But if I

19:08

don't have that option, is there anything I can do to

19:10

nudge a leader to take off the armor, to

19:12

not be so ashamed to be

19:14

a little bit more real? So one

19:17

thing is I never tell people to leave because I

19:19

mean, leave if you can, but I just

19:21

the, you know, I think you and I are both

19:23

careful about that in our, in our work, right? Because

19:25

the reality is you may have a sick kid

19:27

and this is your insurance, you know, like, or this is

19:29

how, you know, definitely wouldn't tell people to leave in this

19:31

job market right now. So we try

19:34

to give people real

19:36

tools. No,

19:38

you can't manage up

19:40

by teaching your boss this

19:43

work and asking her

19:45

to take off the armor. I mean, it

19:47

just doesn't work like that. What

19:50

I would say is let's say you're my boss

19:52

and you're, you're pretty armored. You're

19:55

not your debt. You don't do vulnerability. And

19:59

we just had a big. big disappointment set back in

20:01

our team. And, you know,

20:03

your style is to just move forward. And

20:06

so what I might say, instead of saying, you know,

20:08

look, I think we need to be vulnerable and take

20:10

the armor off and, you know,

20:12

really embrace this failure, that's going to

20:14

get you fired or in trouble. So what

20:17

I would say to this person, and depending

20:19

on how they are is I would say,

20:21

hey, Adam, I have a

20:23

question for you. Do you

20:25

think it could be helpful for us

20:28

to dig in around what happened as

20:30

a group? What

20:32

I'm seeing is I think people are making up different

20:34

stories about how we ended up in

20:36

this setback. And I wonder if it'd

20:38

be helpful if we sat down and

20:40

just talked through it so we could get

20:43

on the same page and figure out just as

20:45

a group what went wrong so we could embed

20:47

that in our team and not repeat it. So

20:51

I would just practice the work, not

20:54

try to influence people to do the

20:57

work. Does that make sense? It does.

20:59

It does. And to

21:01

me, what's so clever about that approach is it

21:04

takes the leader out of the spotlight a little

21:06

bit, right? So I'm not attacking or

21:09

criticizing my boss. I'm actually saying, hey, you know what?

21:11

A lot of people are, I love

21:13

your phrase, you know, with the story I'm making

21:15

up is. And here you're saying actually a

21:17

lot of people are making up different stories. And

21:19

so, you know, maybe we need to actually

21:22

get the – either set the

21:24

record straight or learn something from this experience. And

21:26

so you're almost inviting the leader to be a

21:28

problem solver as opposed to calling them

21:30

the problem. That's right. And so it

21:33

is – we have this list of kind of – you know,

21:35

we call hard conversations rumbles. In

21:38

fact, I have one scheduled today and it literally says

21:40

in my calendar, ad sales

21:42

rumble four o'clock. And

21:44

so what I know – what that means in

21:47

our organization, our culture is we're

21:49

expecting a lot of different opinions. We're expecting a

21:51

lot of competing priorities. Bring up a point

21:53

of view. Bring a lot of curiosity. Be

21:56

prepared to listen more than you talk and

21:59

be prepared for it. for some discomfort because

22:01

we're going to stay in this until we understand

22:03

each other better. And so it's

22:05

just an intention setter for us. We're going to rumble. And

22:07

so we have these rumble starters and

22:10

language that we give people who

22:12

go through our training where if

22:16

I – again, if I'm talking to you

22:18

and we have different takes on, you know,

22:20

the perks of vulnerability, I'm just

22:23

practicing my work with you. So I'm saying,

22:25

you know, I hear

22:27

you, Adam. That's not my experience of how

22:29

ops showed up in that meeting. Can

22:32

you walk me through what you

22:34

saw that is leading you to this belief?

22:38

There's just language and tools that we can use.

22:41

Yeah. And, you know, I

22:43

have to ask because this term

22:45

rumbles for me. It's such a

22:47

great reframe of these hard

22:49

conversations that many of us avoid. And

22:52

there's a part of me that thinks, okay, you're

22:54

activating a new mindset. We're going

22:56

into WWE. Let's get ready

22:59

to rumble. And

23:02

I can't wait. This could be fun. But

23:04

there's a part of me that also thinks, oh, do you

23:07

actually ruminate even more going into

23:09

them thinking, oh, God, I've got to rumble. This is

23:11

going to be horrible. Does the framing help or hurt?

23:14

It depends. I think it depends on the

23:16

culture, right? And it's funny. And this is the age difference

23:18

maybe because I've got – I think I've probably got a

23:20

decade on you. And so when I think of rumble, I

23:22

think of West Side Story. I think

23:24

musicals, you know? And so to me, that's

23:26

where it came from. It

23:28

came from this idea of a rumble

23:32

in West Side Story was

23:34

part argument,

23:36

part dance. Because,

23:39

you know, it was a musical. So in our culture

23:42

where my number one job as

23:44

the kind of CEO of this

23:46

organization that I lead is

23:48

to normalize discomfort. We

23:50

onboard for discomfort. We teach you how to

23:52

fail and get back up when you are

23:55

brand new in week one. Like

23:57

we normalize discomfort because I just

23:59

– can't have people working for

24:01

me who are only

24:03

doing what they're already good at doing. I just,

24:05

that's not effective. Like, that's not

24:08

innovative. So for me, it

24:10

just means, like, I will

24:12

definitely have people who are two levels,

24:14

you know, apart from me, who, you

24:16

know, their boss's boss report to me. And

24:19

they will say to me, hey, Bernie, can I rumble with

24:21

you on the social media strategy? I am not, I'm not

24:23

down with it yet. I don't get it. I'm like, yeah,

24:25

let's rumble. What's, what do you

24:28

think? And as you and I both know, one

24:30

way to really measure embedded change in cultures,

24:32

which is a hard thing to do,

24:34

right, is language. Like language

24:36

is a big indicator. And

24:39

so I think you

24:41

can't just start using the word rumble

24:43

if it's not paired with a deeper

24:46

culture change. I

24:49

think that makes a lot of sense. And it leads me

24:51

wondering a little bit if, if actually,

24:53

wondering a lot. I'm just gonna wonder. Yeah.

24:55

It doesn't matter how much I'm wondering. I

24:57

love it. I love

25:00

measuring culture change by looking at the

25:02

vocabulary people use. I

25:04

guess, I guess maybe this is a little bit

25:06

of a chicken and the egg, but is it

25:08

possible that the vocabulary you're introducing is, is creating

25:10

the change, not just reflecting it? Yeah,

25:13

I think language is praxis. It is, it

25:16

is a theory of change. It is the practice

25:18

of change all wrapped up into one thing. And

25:21

you know, the greatest compliment that I get,

25:24

people would come up after a talk and say,

25:26

I already knew everything

25:28

you said. I had no words

25:30

for it. And I thought it was just me. And

25:35

so that's, that's the goal of the

25:37

work to give people language. Language

25:40

is power. And, and here's the myth. Here's

25:42

what I tell people. We

25:46

think that

25:49

giving language to hard

25:51

emotions like shame, or

25:54

grief, or hard

25:57

experiences, gives those

25:59

experiences or those emotions power.

26:02

But giving language to hard things

26:05

gives us power. Yeah.

26:09

Yeah, that's so true. When we can

26:11

name an emotion, it at least allows

26:13

us to analyze it or to reflect

26:15

on it and to control it a

26:17

little bit because we realize

26:19

we have choices about what we call it. And

26:22

when I do something wrong, as you pointed out so

26:24

many times, I have a choice

26:26

about whether I'm going to interpret what I'm feeling

26:28

as shame, I'm a bad person or guilt, I

26:30

did a bad thing. That's

26:32

right. You want to hear something crazy? Yes,

26:34

always. Yes. Yeah, let

26:36

me tell you something crazy. So we

26:39

have communities and facilitators. And when we

26:41

look at evaluations from that kind of deeply

26:44

therapeutic work where people will spend,

26:46

a facilitator will spend 12 weeks taking

26:49

people through, you know,

26:51

daring greatly, raising

26:53

strong curriculum, in the end in the

26:55

evaluation, what

26:57

we see over and over again, understanding

27:00

the difference between shame and guilt was

27:02

the most important part of this work.

27:06

Just understanding that there's a

27:08

difference between shame, I am

27:10

bad, and guilt, I did

27:13

something bad. And that how

27:15

we talk to ourselves or how we use

27:17

shame or guilt to parent or lead has

27:19

profoundly different outcomes,

27:22

right? Just understanding that

27:24

I can look at my

27:26

child and say, you know what, you're

27:30

a wonderful kid, that was a

27:32

really stupid choice. And how different

27:34

that is from your stupid kid.

27:37

Yeah. Which changes who people are.

27:40

You know? Yeah.

28:08

You did not show up on the first day of school without

28:10

the right trapper keeper. There's

28:12

an emotional connection. People have a

28:14

pen that they like. They have

28:17

a pad that they choose. Office

28:19

supplies seem kind of turnkey or

28:21

commoditized, but the reality is

28:23

people actually do care. Maybe

28:26

it starts right when you start with school supplies

28:28

and making sure you have those right items, what

28:30

you choose to write with, how you choose to

28:32

take notes. The whole thing is very personal. Meet

28:35

Amy Becker. She leads the private

28:37

brand team for Staples. In

28:39

my role, I'm actually responsible for developing

28:42

and bringing to market products that are

28:44

under our brand. We have a very

28:46

keen focus on innovation, so bringing products

28:49

to market that are new and different

28:51

and really make the way of work

28:53

easier. Staples isn't just for back-to-school

28:55

shopping. A big part of their model is

28:58

providing products for other companies. Although

29:00

our physical retail stores are important

29:02

and they play that role for

29:04

the consumer every day, we are

29:07

actually a huge B2B organization delivering

29:09

for businesses every day. Whether

29:11

it starts when you're going back to school

29:13

or when you start a new job or

29:15

when you're in your job for 20 years,

29:17

these are tools that you need to be

29:19

successful, to be productive, and that's really the

29:22

role Staples plays now across, I would call

29:24

it, business essentials as opposed to just office

29:26

supplies or back-to-school supplies.

29:29

What makes these business essentials successful is

29:31

Staples' commitment to innovation. From markers designed

29:33

to not roll off your desk to

29:35

pens that won't smudge if you're a

29:37

lefty. Another product that I've been

29:39

excited about is taking something

29:41

that everybody's using every day and

29:43

making it better. We actually have a

29:46

stapler that holds an extra

29:48

sleeve of Staples. It has a staple

29:50

remover attached to it. It has different

29:52

finishes for how the Staples will finish

29:54

on a document. A staple is a

29:56

staple, a paperclip's a paperclip, but

29:59

that doesn't mean they're not ripe. innovation. When

30:01

we think of innovation, we normally think of

30:03

radical leaps. The research shows that

30:05

a great deal of progress comes not

30:07

through major breakthroughs, but through more minor

30:10

incremental advances, like putting wheels on a

30:12

suitcase. We designed these scissors, they're

30:14

titanium coated, they stay sharp, they

30:16

don't rust, so I put

30:18

them through the dishwasher. Wait, you put

30:20

scissors in the dishwasher? I did, I did.

30:22

I put these scissors through the dishwasher. Did the spoons

30:24

come out all cut up? The spoons

30:27

survived, forks not so

30:29

much. Staples is all about finding new

30:31

ways to improve on classic products. These

30:33

are not products that you're using, you

30:35

know, once a month or once a

30:37

year. They're, you know, once

30:39

an hour. I think sometimes we

30:41

forget that because you're that

30:44

engaged with this product on

30:46

such a fundamental level for

30:49

so many moments during your day that it

30:51

matters. And that's, I think,

30:53

the key, right, is that we want to

30:55

make sure that we don't forget that the

30:57

consumer cares and that we

30:59

can't lose sight of the things that are potential

31:01

pain points that we can be making better

31:04

for them or improving for them in their

31:06

everyday life. Staples

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Business Advantage uses today's latest

31:10

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31:12

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31:14

you. Learn more and sign

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31:19

Business Advantage. Business is

31:22

human. How

31:25

do you feel about the business?

31:42

One of the fears that a lot of people

31:44

carry around is people are worried

31:46

that if they're vulnerable at the wrong

31:48

time or with the wrong person, especially

31:50

if they're in a more performance-oriented culture

31:52

at work, that they

31:54

might not be seen as competent. I'd

31:57

love to hear your latest thinking on, especially in a virtual

31:59

world, How do I figure out

32:01

what appropriate vulnerability is and how do I know

32:04

whether it's safe to be vulnerable? So,

32:07

I would say you don't, you'll never succeed

32:09

in a performative culture if you don't have

32:11

some of the things that really are vulnerable,

32:14

like curiosity. If you pretend like you know

32:16

everything in a performative culture

32:18

and you're not a learner, that

32:21

house of cards is going to collapse at some point. What

32:24

I think people are asking is how much

32:27

is too much to share about my

32:29

feelings? And

32:32

that always leads me to

32:34

this very simple sentence, vulnerability

32:37

minus boundaries is not vulnerability.

32:40

Are you sharing your

32:43

emotions, your experiences to

32:45

move work,

32:48

connection, or relationship forward

32:52

or are you working your shit out with somebody? And

32:54

work is not a place to do that. So

32:57

I'll give you an example that I think is, you

33:00

know, in fact when I tell the story, I tell the story a

33:02

lot when I'm talking, but I think

33:04

about you sometimes, Adam, when I tell the story because

33:06

of things that I have read that you've written. No,

33:10

no, it's good, I think, but it's, this

33:13

is a nuanced, life is

33:15

nuanced, right? And so I

33:17

was working with a group

33:20

of newly funded CEOs from

33:23

Silicon Valley and after my

33:26

talk, one of them came up to me and said, I'm going to

33:28

be vulnerable. I'm going to tell my investors, I'm going to tell my

33:30

employees, look, we're in over our head, I don't know what

33:33

I'm doing and we're bleeding money. Cool.

33:36

Right. And he said, I'm just going to be vulnerable.

33:38

And I said, you

33:41

must have stepped out to go to the bathroom or

33:43

get a coffee during the part where I

33:45

said vulnerability minus boundaries is

33:47

not vulnerability. We always have to

33:49

interrogate our intention around sharing and

33:51

we have to question who we're sharing with and

33:53

is that the right thing? And he's saying,

33:55

so what do you think is going to happen? You don't think I should do it?

33:57

I said, I think you'll never get funding again. I

34:00

think you will unfairly put the people who

34:02

probably left great jobs to follow you over

34:04

here into a terrible position of fear." And

34:08

he said, so I don't understand. And

34:10

I said, if you are literally in over your

34:12

head, you don't know what to do

34:15

next and you're bleeding money, you should

34:17

absolutely share that with

34:19

someone. But the question is, who

34:21

is the appropriate person to tell? I

34:25

so appreciate the nuance that you bring to

34:27

this idea of vulnerability to say, look, just

34:30

because vulnerability helps to build trust

34:33

doesn't mean you should share everything in

34:35

all situations with all people. And

34:37

I think that's such a common misconception

34:40

about the idea. I guess it comes up

34:42

a lot in discussions about authenticity too, that

34:44

people think that, okay,

34:46

I'm trying to be authentic and that means I don't

34:48

need to have a filter. Or

34:51

I can defend my actions by saying, I

34:53

was just being myself. I'm like, well, you

34:55

were just being a jerk. That's

34:58

not okay. Yes, that's exactly

35:00

right. Look, I know

35:02

some of the most vulnerable and

35:04

authentic leaders I have ever had the

35:06

pleasure of working with, truly

35:09

authentic, truly vulnerable, personally

35:12

disclose very little. And

35:15

some of the leaders that I work with disclose

35:17

everything are the least authentic and vulnerable people I've

35:19

been around. Wait, okay. So this

35:21

is totally fascinating. Hold on. Are

35:24

you saying that I don't? No, no. I

35:27

actually love this because I have been criticized on this before

35:29

and I think you just gave me a

35:33

new way of thinking about this, which is you're

35:35

saying I can be vulnerable without

35:37

disclosing a ton about my emotions

35:39

or my life. Yes. How?

35:42

I think this is what I've been trying to do. I'll

35:45

just give you the background in case it's helpful. I have

35:47

gotten feedback from a bunch of people I work with that

35:50

when there's something difficult going on in my

35:52

life. I don't share much about it. And

35:56

my fear has been that when people know

35:58

that there's something difficult

36:00

going on in my life, and then I

36:02

don't open up about it. They're gonna think

36:04

that I'm not being honest or authentic with

36:06

them, or I'm lacking vulnerability. And you're saying

36:09

there are ways that I can maintain, I

36:11

guess my degree of privacy that I might

36:13

opt for naturally and still be vulnerable. So

36:15

I'm excited about this. Tell me more. This

36:18

is what vulnerability can look like. Hey, I'm

36:21

really struggling right now. I've got some stuff going

36:23

on with my mom, and it's hard. And

36:26

I want a y'all to know, and I want you to know what

36:28

support looks like for me, is

36:30

I'll check in with you if I need something

36:33

from you. And I

36:35

may take some time off, but I wanna

36:37

know for me, support looks like being able

36:39

to share this with you and

36:41

being able to bring it up with you when it's helpful for me,

36:44

but not having to field a lot of questions for it.

36:46

So I appreciate being able to tell you. I

36:49

appreciate that we all will need different things when we have

36:51

hard things going on in our lives. This is what

36:53

I need right now. That

36:55

is incredibly empowering. So

36:57

let me tell you what people are actually worried

36:59

about, Adam. When you've

37:02

got someone who compartmentalizes in segments,

37:04

and when they know something really difficult is

37:06

going on, they've got a parent in chemotherapy,

37:08

or they've got something's really hard

37:11

is going on. They're

37:13

concerned about you for sure, but what they're also

37:15

concerned about is, Bernay

37:18

does not give me permission to be human.

37:20

I am not safe here unless

37:23

I too compartmentalize and

37:26

do not bring my whole self here. And

37:29

what you're doing when you say what I

37:31

just said, which is I understand we all

37:33

have different things and different needs, and

37:36

I love being a part of a team that can

37:38

respect that. I do trust you and want you to

37:40

know that these hard things are going on, and for

37:42

me, support looks like this right now. That's

37:46

awesome. Does that

37:48

make sense? It does, it's a different interpretation than I

37:50

had made, which is when I've

37:52

got, the first or second time, I was

37:54

like, oh, okay, this is somebody who wants,

37:58

who just expects me to open up more than I do. do

38:00

and we have different preferences, that's okay. And

38:02

then as it happened a few more times, I

38:05

felt like, okay, maybe what's

38:07

going on is people are worried that they're not

38:09

as close to me as they thought they were.

38:12

Because if they were, I would have shared this. And

38:14

you're saying, yes, maybe that, but also that they're

38:17

worried that if they want to share something with

38:19

me, then I'm not going to be receptive to

38:21

it because I don't do it in return. If

38:24

you're my boss and you're the person that really

38:26

is very private and doesn't like to disclose

38:28

and I know

38:31

something's going on, it

38:34

creates eggshells for me because

38:36

you're not being explicit about what you want

38:38

or don't want, it's just off limits. And

38:41

if you said that to me, I'd say, man, Adam, I really

38:46

appreciate you normalizing that

38:48

we have lives outside of work

38:50

and I really appreciate you normalizing

38:52

that we all need different things when we're in a

38:54

hard time. And what I really appreciate is

38:57

you asking us, you trusting us enough to share

38:59

that you're having a hard time and ask for

39:01

what you need, which is not to talk about

39:03

it unless you bring it up. That's

39:06

safety, that's psychological safety. It's

39:09

such a powerful conversation that I clearly need to have with

39:11

a bunch of people. I'm going

39:13

to add to my list now, but it

39:16

also makes me think that it

39:19

might be helpful to clarify to people what closeness means

39:21

to me. Yes. When

39:24

I think about closeness, it's less about disclosing

39:26

my deepest emotions or what's going on in

39:29

my personal life. It's more about,

39:31

number one, if I've made time for you, that means you

39:33

matter to me. Full stop. Yes.

39:37

And number two, and maybe more importantly, I

39:40

do not see a connection

39:42

between the frequency of communication and

39:44

the depth of a friendship or a

39:47

collaboration. And I feel like the

39:49

people I'm closest to, I sometimes go a year or more

39:51

without talking to them, and we

39:53

can just pick right up where we left off. And

39:55

I know that if I ever needed them, they would

39:57

be there for me and vice versa. And

40:00

I don't think I've actually let anyone know that. God,

40:02

it's huge. It's so important. And that,

40:05

that, you know what that is? That's

40:07

authenticity. That's authenticity. Because

40:10

let me tell you something. You sitting down with this folks are

40:12

concerned because you're not sharing enough and

40:14

pushing yourself to share with them. It's

40:17

actually not authenticity. That's

40:20

assessing and acclimating to what you think people

40:22

need. It's not being you. That's

40:24

why this sentence, what, you know, what does support look like for

40:26

me? What does support look like for you? And

40:29

that we can build a team that we can have

40:31

different needs because we see

40:33

each other and respect each other. That's

40:35

authenticity. It's nothing more, nothing less.

40:38

So if I can quote you to you, I think

40:41

I'm going to do it.

40:45

I'm going to do it. No, you said something really profound about

40:47

this. You've said that. I think tell

40:49

me, tell me if I'm if I'm misapplying it here. But

40:51

I think that another way of

40:53

saying what you just said in your words is that

40:56

if I were basically just sharing

40:58

because people expected me to share, then I'm

41:00

fitting in as opposed to belonging. That's

41:02

right. That's right. That's

41:04

right. And, and there is room

41:06

for all of us like I

41:09

have pushed and pushed and pushed people to

41:13

be more like at

41:15

my level of sharing, which is kind of somewhere in the

41:17

middle. Like I have my own personal line, I'll share what's

41:19

vulnerable, but I never share what's intimate. I'm

41:21

really clear on all that. I don't, my kids are

41:24

not in my posts. I'm not,

41:26

you know, I just, I'm a public person, but that

41:28

doesn't mean that I forfeited everything in my life. And

41:30

so what true belonging

41:32

is, if you've got a team

41:35

of seven people that have seven

41:37

different ways of showing up and

41:39

different levels of comfort with sharing

41:42

and that all of them feel like they

41:44

have a space there because what's not honored

41:47

is a way of

41:49

being with honored is actually authenticity,

41:53

you know, and that's what we're looking for. But

41:55

let me tell you that's a shit ton of

41:57

work and it's more work than saying authenticity is

41:59

crying. 3.5, which I've really

42:02

had leaders come up to me and literally say,

42:04

how many times do I have to cry in

42:06

front of them to really be considered vulnerable? And

42:09

I said, yeah, you don't

42:11

get it. There's no hack here. There's

42:13

no hardwiring here. It's about

42:16

understanding and seeing people. Love

42:18

that. Well, thank you. I've learned

42:20

so much from your work. It's been eye-opening.

42:24

It's been, at various points, uplifting

42:26

and also a little bit arresting in

42:28

the best ways. And it's

42:30

been just a real treat and delight to

42:33

have you on WorkLife. God,

42:35

thank you so much. You have to say this is just one

42:37

of my favorite conversations ever. So thank

42:40

you for inviting me. If

42:48

you're still hungry for more from Brené and

42:50

me, we just had another conversation for her

42:52

podcast, Dare to Lead. It's on

42:54

Spotify. Brené with Adam Grant on the power

42:56

of knowing what you don't know. Rethinking

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with Adam Grant is part of the TED Audio Collective. The

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show is hosted by me, Adam Grant, and

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produced by TED with Transmitter Media. It

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includes Colin Helms, Retta Cohn, Dan

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O'Donnell, Joanne Deluna, Grace Rubens, Michelle

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Quinn, Van Van Chang, and Anna

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Fuhrer. This episode was

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produced by Consanto Gallardo and Jeffrica Glazer.

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Our show is mixed by Rick Kwak, original

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music by Hans Delceau and Alison Mae

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Ebrecht. Additional production by Cosmic Standard.