0:01

Ted Audio Collective. Ted

0:30

Audio Collective. Ted

1:00

Audio Collective. Ted

1:30

Audio Collective. boxer.

2:01

And she's also in the Guinness Book

2:03

of War Records for being the oldest

2:05

person, male or female, that

2:07

won a boxing title, a world championship

2:09

title. She did that at the tender

2:12

age of 49. So

2:14

we're a pretty competitive household. All

2:17

three of us are in our respective

2:19

Hall of Fames for our sport. This didn't

2:21

happen until much later in life, of

2:23

course. As a child, my

2:26

mother was not around because she left

2:28

to come to the United States to prepare

2:31

the way for us, to prepare a better

2:34

life, or as the typical

2:36

immigrant story goes, for her children. She

2:38

eventually was able to bring us up

2:40

10 years later. We were taken care

2:42

of by our grandmother, who

2:44

was 64 at the time

2:46

my mother left and would soldier on

2:48

for 10 years, taking care of

2:51

the three of us until all our

2:53

papers were finally official. And she raised

2:55

seven children by herself first, and then

2:57

raised the babies, the grandbabies,

3:00

the children of her daughter. So

3:03

it was quite a challenge growing up in

3:05

Jamaica because we lived in serious amount of

3:07

poverty. The reason why my mother left when

3:09

she had the opportunity in the first place

3:11

was because of that she just wanted

3:14

greater opportunities for her children. I

3:16

mean, just extraordinary on so many levels. We've

3:19

talked a lot about character skills and

3:22

their importance in success and growth.

3:25

What were the character skills that your

3:27

grandmother instilled in you? She was

3:30

quite the tenacious woman. She

3:32

did not believe in self-pity. She had gone

3:34

through the tough times herself, and

3:37

she knew that tough times make tough people.

3:39

And so she always

3:41

preached hard work.

3:43

She always preached focus

3:45

and desire for excellence. And

3:48

one of the big things she taught me was

3:50

focusing on what you want

3:53

in life and giving it

3:55

your all. She actually used to say, Jack

3:57

of all trades, master of none. And

4:00

she would repeat it like a mantra to

4:02

me. At some point I thought she was

4:04

cursing me, the way she just repeated it

4:06

over and over and almost castigating me for

4:08

having too many interests. But

4:11

her goal was to let me understand

4:13

that focus was essential

4:15

and a key to success and that

4:17

you had to be determined in order

4:20

to get exactly what you wanted. Was

4:22

there a moment where that lesson

4:25

hit home? Absolutely. When

4:27

I was 33 years old,

4:29

the biggest day of my life as

4:31

a chess professional, because

4:34

I was about to play a game

4:36

against an international master, Adrian Negalescu from

4:38

Romania. And if I won that game,

4:40

I'd be given the title of Grand

4:43

Master, which was my

4:45

biggest dream. And I remember

4:47

distinctly being home, ironing

4:50

my shirt to go to the game, because the

4:52

game took place in New York City, where

4:54

I then lived. The

4:56

iron was hanging in my hand when

4:59

I thought of her words. And

5:01

I realized for the first time, as a

5:03

grown man, it took me all those years

5:05

to understand that she never

5:07

meant those words maliciously, that she meant

5:09

them out of love, that she meant

5:12

for me to use them as a

5:14

warning so that I could

5:17

be as focused as needed to be, to

5:19

be successful. And when

5:21

I realized that I dropped the iron and

5:24

started crying, because I realized my grandmother was

5:26

a woman that cared so much about me,

5:28

and I had treated those words resentfully, that

5:31

somehow I had just seen

5:33

her in a negative light for saying those

5:35

words to me. And I let it all

5:37

out. And it was at that moment that

5:39

I gained the strength to then go and

5:41

play the game. And I won the game

5:43

and finally achieved my dream of becoming a

5:45

Grand Master. When I think about the

5:47

meaning of that phrase from everything I know about you and

5:49

your life, it

5:52

sounds to me like what she was telling you

5:54

was, look, you have the potential to

5:56

be very good at a lot of things. And

5:58

you might not be able to do that. actually

6:00

limit your ultimate accomplishments

6:02

if you try to do them

6:04

all. I think that's absolutely right

6:07

but that's not the kind of insight

6:09

that an eight-year-old or a ten-year-old truly

6:11

understands right unless it's fully explained to

6:13

you you get it through the prism

6:15

of this infantile mind

6:17

or this childlike mind and

6:20

that's how I interpreted it but

6:22

she understood quite deeply that excellence

6:24

comes with focus. You

6:27

could be great at a lot of things you

6:29

could have a high IQ you could be wonderful

6:31

in many subjects in school but you

6:34

need to take one subject

6:36

at a time if you're going to

6:39

master it and in my case grand

6:41

master it. I've never heard that verb

6:43

before yeah she she did not know

6:45

that I would eventually become a chess player

6:47

I did not play much chess

6:49

in Jamaica but whatever

6:52

it is that I would do

6:54

in life she knew that it would take that

6:56

kind of dedication and focus. I think

6:58

a lot of people struggle with making that choice there are a

7:01

lot of things I'm interested in I could

7:03

see myself getting really passionate about a bunch of

7:05

them how do I pick how did you know

7:07

chess was gonna be your game? I

7:09

think that chess picked me I didn't

7:14

have a clue that chess would

7:16

become my obsession the way it did but

7:18

once it sort of infected

7:20

me like a virus that

7:23

was it it was over I could not

7:25

do anything but play chess I didn't want

7:27

to do anything other than playing chess and

7:30

usually what I exhort people in life

7:32

is if it's a thing that

7:34

you can't help doing that's the thing if

7:37

you have to stop and think about it and

7:39

meditate on it I could do this I could

7:41

do that then you probably haven't found the thing

7:44

because those who become great at

7:46

something usually do not

7:49

want to do anything else it's what's on

7:51

their mind they wake up to it they

7:53

dream about it I remember having dreams of

7:55

chess games where I would normally lose by

7:57

the way in my own dream that really

7:59

pissed me off. I would

8:01

lose. Why couldn't I at least be

8:03

winning these games in my own dreams? But

8:07

the fact is, it does

8:09

become all-consuming. And if you haven't found

8:11

that thing just yet, then

8:14

you probably need to wait some more because the

8:17

universe isn't telling you what you

8:19

need to know. I wholeheartedly agree

8:21

with you. But I think where people sometimes

8:23

stumble is it's hard to like something you're

8:25

bad at. There's research on this showing that

8:28

as people's skill improves, their intrinsic

8:30

motivation rises. And I think

8:32

you dealt with that early on. You were terrible

8:34

at chess when you started. And you really didn't

8:36

like at least the outcome of losing. We've talked

8:39

about that a little bit. I think you even

8:41

told me you hated losing. So how

8:44

did you find the motivation to keep

8:46

going? Well, I love chess, but I

8:48

was extremely competitive. I'm from

8:50

a competitive family. And I couldn't

8:52

tolerate the idea that somebody could

8:54

whip me at something that easily

8:56

in my friends in school, particularly

8:58

my friend, Clothair Colas, who everybody

9:00

calls Tico, and also my friend

9:03

Vincent Monroe, who everybody calls Leon.

9:05

Those two would just school me

9:07

at chess. And I

9:09

was fascinated by the game, but I

9:12

really couldn't stand losing

9:15

that easily, especially that easily.

9:17

They would just crush me. It

9:19

was embarrassing. Leon took a rook off the

9:22

board. You take a rook off

9:24

the board. That's like spotting somebody 30, 40

9:27

points in basketball and saying, no

9:29

worries. I'm still going to whip you. I'm

9:31

going to score so much on you. You

9:33

don't stand a chance. And

9:35

I think that that competitive side,

9:38

that desire to win, that

9:41

feeling that I could actually become

9:43

better if I worked at it and

9:45

become better really fast, those things motivated

9:47

me. And I think that was really all

9:50

it was. And there was an ego also.

9:52

I'll add that in there. It

9:55

wasn't just the pain of losing, but

9:57

the arrogance that told me.

10:00

I should be able to do this really

10:02

well, and I don't care what you do.

10:04

I'm coming back I think I'm gonna learn

10:06

and I'm coming back to take you down

10:08

and Luckily,

10:10

I was reading chess books and I learned really

10:13

fast and it didn't take me that long to

10:15

start beating my friends You're

10:17

known to the outside world as a chess

10:19

grandmaster But I think of you as a

10:21

learning grandmaster your speed and discipline of getting

10:23

good at something Is something

10:25

we can all learn from whether we're playing chess or

10:27

trying to master any skill? So

10:30

I'd love to talk to you about that a little bit and there

10:32

are a bunch of different ways to formulate this question But let me start

10:35

with what do people get wrong

10:37

when they're trying to accelerate their progress in

10:39

a game like chess? That's

10:41

a fabulous question people

10:43

tend to believe two things

10:45

that they're fallacious one

10:48

that Memorizing

10:50

is the most important thing you

10:54

learn facts you learn tactics

10:56

or Ideas openings you

10:58

learn these set ways of playing

11:00

and that's going to make you

11:02

good and that's just absurd Okay,

11:05

you need to learn certain things

11:07

certain patterns that exist and those

11:10

will be important But it's not

11:12

the patterns only that help you.

11:15

It's the ideas. It's

11:17

the overall universal

11:19

applicability of those

11:21

patterns that give you the

11:23

raw power to break down any position

11:25

and that's challenge for people

11:28

because they rely so much

11:30

on this crutch of Memorization,

11:32

but the truth is you have it

11:34

backwards what you have to study in

11:36

chess is the end game you start at the end

11:38

and By knowing what

11:40

you're aiming for you can better

11:42

navigate the present to the middle

11:44

game to the finish And

11:47

that's what people normally get wrong. They try

11:49

to learn quickly

11:51

by memorizing openings by

11:53

memorizing set winning plays from the

11:56

beginning instead of taking it backwards

11:58

and dissecting the

12:01

ideas, the principles that

12:03

are universally applicable throughout any phase

12:05

of the game. That

12:07

was one of my favorite aha moments when I

12:09

was writing Hidden Potential courtesy of you. The

12:11

idea that not only is it easier to

12:13

learn the game by starting at the end,

12:16

it's also more motivating for a kid to

12:18

not have to worry about, wait, what does

12:20

a knight do again? When can a pawn

12:22

do an en-passant? But rather to say, I've

12:24

just got a couple pieces on the board.

12:26

How do I checkmate the king? There are

12:29

so many golden nuggets and

12:31

truths in simplicity. And

12:33

even that people will get wrong. They'll take an

12:35

endgame and think they have to memorize the endgame.

12:38

But the eternal truths hidden

12:40

in these simple positions have

12:42

nothing to do with memorizing,

12:44

but rather, again, extracting those

12:47

meta concepts that are

12:51

applicable throughout any phase of the

12:53

game, whether it's ideas like Zugzwong,

12:55

which is when if it's

12:57

your turn to move, you lose because it's

12:59

your turn to move. I mean, think about

13:01

that. We are such active people. And if

13:04

I tell you, but if you do something,

13:06

you will fail. You will lose. Who

13:09

thinks about an idea like that? But it

13:11

happens all the time in chess. To get

13:13

an idea like that one, seeing

13:16

what the opponent wants, understanding

13:18

how to curtail exactly

13:20

what they're trying to do so that you

13:22

can execute what you want to do. Those

13:25

are principles, not just for chess, but

13:27

for life. And those

13:30

are the principles I try to instill in

13:32

my students. I will show them chess,

13:34

but at the same time, I'll make

13:36

sure that they're thinking more broadly about

13:38

the applicability of these core

13:40

concepts and how they can apply

13:43

them on the chessboard, of course, but also

13:45

in their daily lives. Well, this

13:47

goes to the book you have coming out, Move

13:49

by Move. You've written about

13:51

the life lessons from chess, and you

13:53

are chock full of those. You

13:56

spend, I know, a bunch of time teaching us how to

13:58

think like a chess player, not just to become better

14:00

chess players but to become better thinkers. What

14:03

are some of your favorite principles? One of

14:05

the things I talked about respecting

14:07

your opponent more than you respect yourself.

14:10

You must study every single

14:13

aspect of your opponent. How

14:15

do they react under pressure? You want

14:17

to know everything because that's how you

14:19

craft a winning plan against

14:22

a very difficult, devious,

14:24

devilish, aggressive opponent. I

14:27

also talk about sacrifice and

14:29

risk. In many people, they're

14:31

afraid to sacrifice anything that is give

14:33

away a pawn or a piece because

14:35

they're afraid they're going to lose the

14:37

game. And what's the level of risk?

14:39

How do you mitigate against risk? But

14:42

yet the reality is that risk is

14:44

part of the game. You have to

14:46

take a chance if you're going to

14:48

be successful. World champion Magnus Carlsen actually

14:50

is quoted as saying that it's

14:53

a risky strategy not to take

14:55

risks. In fact, that's

14:57

the challenge. Another world champion, Tigran Petrosian,

15:00

said about sacrifice that people when they

15:02

sacrifice something, right, it's like an investment.

15:04

You invested in it. Be patient. Act

15:06

as though you took that chance. You

15:09

invested with the opportunity for it to

15:11

come back and not expecting an immediate

15:13

return. Let me jump in

15:15

there for a second because that's totally fascinating.

15:18

There was a psychologist, Clyde Coombs, who wrote

15:20

about risk portfolios and the idea

15:22

that people would think about risk in the different

15:24

domains of their life, similar to a stock portfolio,

15:26

where if I'm going to

15:28

take a social risk and maybe put myself

15:31

in an uncomfortable situation that might embarrass me,

15:33

then I'm going to become extra cautious when

15:35

it comes to physical risk and look nine

15:37

times before crossing the street and

15:40

kind of balance out the budget that way. I

15:43

think what you're saying here is that if

15:45

you take all the decisions in your life

15:48

and you take zero risks, that is

15:50

risky because you don't have a balanced

15:52

portfolio. It's a beautiful way of putting it.

15:55

I think that's related to the next principle that

15:58

is the power of mistakes.

16:00

We so eschew mistakes in

16:02

life. We avoid them like

16:04

the plague and chess players

16:07

understand that mistakes are our greatest

16:09

teachers. We embrace

16:11

our mistakes. We want to know what

16:14

exactly is the nature of the error

16:16

that I made and why is it

16:18

that I made it? What

16:20

is it in me that I

16:22

don't understand, that I seem to

16:24

repeat over and over again? What's

16:27

that pattern that can teach me

16:29

to use this error

16:31

and have it be a

16:33

springboard for future growth

16:35

and success? And in this

16:38

way, your mistake is your greatest

16:40

teacher. And I think just

16:42

most people don't realize like for us as chess

16:44

players we're recording all our games. So we can

16:46

see the mistakes. We can stack games against each

16:48

other and go, okay, I keep

16:50

doing this over and over again and

16:54

that's huge. I think

16:56

a lot of people struggle with with emotion

16:58

regulation in that situation. They catch a mistake especially

17:00

if they made it multiple times or if it

17:02

seems like a really dumb error and

17:05

they start to feel embarrassed, they're

17:07

disappointed, they're wallowing in regret, they

17:09

might even be ashamed of themselves.

17:12

It's so easy as a psychologist to say but there's

17:15

a functional theory of emotions that says we evolved to

17:17

feel these things to get us to pay attention and

17:19

learn so we do better next time. That's your teachable

17:22

moment. So as soon as you've

17:24

extracted the lesson, the emotion is irrelevant.

17:26

But the emotion doesn't go away for a lot of

17:28

people. So how do you manage that? A

17:31

lot of chess players, especially very

17:33

gifted ones, who were prodigies

17:35

when they were young, who the game

17:37

came easily to them. No

17:40

worries. It would just start beating kids

17:42

and their parents started saying Oh

17:45

my child is so gifted at chess

17:47

and you hear all this positive feedback

17:49

that makes you feel so good. Well

17:52

sooner or later those extremely gifted

17:54

children start meeting other extremely

17:56

gifted children and when they

17:58

do battle It's not so

18:01

easy anymore. You start losing games

18:03

when you usually were winning all the

18:06

time. And those kids

18:08

are not good, many of them,

18:11

at emotional regulation. Now

18:13

they have to deal with, for the first

18:15

time, the frustration, the embarrassment,

18:17

the shame. And mommy and daddy not

18:19

saying, oh, you're so good. Now they're

18:22

saying, oh, it's OK. You win

18:24

the next time. It

18:26

really is resiliency is

18:28

what it's about. It's recognizing that it's

18:30

not the end of the world. And

18:33

for some, that it doesn't come as easily

18:35

to somebody like myself who got my head

18:37

handed to me when I was a kid

18:40

at chess. That was a good thing

18:42

because I didn't have this

18:44

necessarily big view of myself as a

18:46

chess player. I had an ego as

18:48

a thinker and a student. But as

18:50

a chess player, I understood that, OK,

18:53

I'm not that good, but I'm going to get better. And

18:56

as I got better, the feedback

18:59

was, oh, look at this. I

19:02

sucked at first, but now I'm getting better. I'm beating

19:04

people that I wasn't able to beat before. This

19:06

seems like a thing I can do. And

19:09

at every single level, I would do that.

19:12

Any friend who beat me said,

19:14

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22:29

up today at staplesbusinessadvantage.com. Staples

22:32

Business Advantage. Business is

22:34

human. I've

22:37

got a bunch of rapid fire questions for you. You're a

22:39

pro at these. I actually, I created

22:42

a longer than usual list just for

22:44

you. So are you ready? Yes. All

22:46

right. What is the biggest misconception that people

22:49

have about what it takes to be a

22:51

great chess player? You have to be super

22:53

freaking smart. And in fact, there's

22:56

so many chess players who are not that bright,

22:58

I hate to say. That's

23:00

reassuring to the rest of us. You've

23:03

been known to hustle people in the

23:05

park. You can win multiple chess matches

23:07

blindfolded at the same time. Is

23:09

that a skill or is it a parlor trick? It's

23:13

definitely a skill. And

23:15

you develop it by working your tail

23:17

off over and over again

23:19

at chess. And sooner or later, the board

23:22

is just a feature locked

23:24

in your brain. That immediately makes

23:26

me think about the Queen's Gambit. What

23:29

did you think of it? The book itself

23:31

was very well written, Walter

23:33

Tevis's book, and they had two

23:36

prominent players who were

23:38

always looking for every

23:40

single detail, making sure it was on point.

23:42

Gary Kasparov and Bruce Pandolfini in

23:44

their hands. The chess was fabulous.

23:46

Usually chess in movies have basic

23:49

errors that drive us crazy,

23:52

make me want to pull my hair out, and I have none left.

23:56

So they did a great job, and the

23:58

story was absolutely fantastic. What's

24:01

the most underrated character skill for chess? Intuition.

24:06

Just raw intuition. How

24:08

much we just flow. The

24:11

move just comes to your mind.

24:13

You don't calculate, you don't look

24:17

20 moves ahead, you

24:19

just know what to do right now

24:21

and you go with it. I

24:23

have to do a quick follow-up on that one because

24:25

it surprised me at first and then all of a

24:27

sudden it hit me, chess is a stable game and

24:30

that's where we know intuition is reliable. When

24:32

I think about the science of intuition,

24:34

you can't trust intuition if you're a

24:36

stock broker because the market is constantly

24:39

changing. You can trust it if

24:41

you're a firefighter because there's a limited number of ways

24:43

that a building can burn and you've built up all

24:45

those patterns in your mind and chess is like that.

24:47

You can rely on the patterns of the past to

24:49

predict the future and your

24:51

subconscious is probably both

24:53

more sophisticated and faster at

24:56

recognizing those patterns than your

24:58

conscious reflection is. You said

25:00

it perfectly. This kind of decision-making allows

25:02

us to play chess at really fast

25:04

speeds, the stability you're talking about where

25:06

we'll play blitz chess which is five

25:09

minutes per side or my favorite which

25:11

is bullet chess which is one minute

25:13

to play the entire game. I mean

25:15

one minute on the clock, 60 seconds

25:18

to play the entire game and you're

25:20

watching pieces just zip across the board

25:22

at light speed and the best

25:24

players can make 80 moves, eight

25:27

zero in 60 seconds. Think

25:30

about that. That's insane.

25:32

Just absolutely absurd. But

25:35

that requires a super refined intuition

25:37

within a space of course of

25:39

stability as you described. You

25:42

have a children's book coming out on the life-changing

25:44

magic of chess. What

25:47

do you want parents to take away about how to

25:49

get their kids excited about the game? That

25:52

the game is really a wonderland

25:54

where these

25:56

magical pieces, knights

25:58

and bishops, kings and queens, queens, the

26:00

rooks and pawns. The

26:02

pieces have a special look to them. Their

26:05

armies going off to war, it's

26:08

this battleground, but at the same time, it's

26:11

a fairy tale. Every single time a new

26:13

story gets told with a different ending. And

26:17

kids just love it. And so

26:19

we should not be so

26:21

concerned about the child winning at the

26:23

game as much as them

26:25

just enjoying the process of

26:27

playing and learning more and

26:29

more about how to

26:32

think, how to approach problems, how

26:34

to lose, how to win

26:37

gracefully as well. It has

26:40

this really transformative effect on

26:42

the young mind. And that's my

26:45

main purpose and message for this book.

26:48

A few other lightning questions. One is,

26:51

what's the worst advice you've ever gotten? I

26:54

was told by a hustler in the park that

26:57

I should keep my rating low

26:59

intentionally so that I could play

27:01

in lower rated events and win

27:03

them and win the money that

27:05

was available, the prize that was

27:07

available. This is a technique we

27:09

call sandbagging. And I remember hearing

27:11

this advice and instantly thinking, I'm

27:14

trying to become a grandmaster and you're asking

27:16

me to depress my rating so that I

27:18

could win money. And my

27:21

quick response was

27:24

just a hard get out

27:26

my face. People want to win and

27:28

think they value winning and the rewards

27:30

from winning so much that the entire

27:33

process of becoming better

27:35

and the journey towards excellence, it

27:37

doesn't excite them. Or

27:40

they realize that there's so much loss

27:42

involved that why

27:44

do that when you can, in the meantime,

27:47

pick up some box and win some

27:49

tournament? I just embrace the process of

27:52

trying to get better and recognizing that part of

27:54

it is losing. And for

27:56

me, losing is learning. Do You have

27:59

a book recommendation for us? You. Know it's

28:01

a really good book just for the joy

28:03

of it. The fun of reading in the

28:05

world that it inhabits is a book called

28:08

the Turks. Don't. Out. It's.

28:10

A book about. This. Autumn, it's

28:12

on. That was. Created.

28:14

By Wolfgang van

28:16

Kempelen. In the

28:19

seventeen, fifty seventeen sixties

28:21

and. He. Basically was a

28:23

hoax. The thing was not actually.

28:26

Playing. Chess but it out of

28:28

the human inside the machine but

28:31

it's over. Really original Mechanical Turk.

28:33

The mechanical Turk exactly. It is

28:35

so amazingly written and you get

28:37

a sense of just how amazing

28:39

the world was in the late

28:41

seventeen hundreds, the early eighteen hundreds

28:43

of the time of the industrial

28:45

age and the relationship to the

28:48

mechanization. At. That time

28:50

that terrified people about how the

28:52

world would change as a result

28:54

of these machines and. Really?

28:57

Essentially. Pre seized our time

28:59

this time when now Ai is

29:01

about to take over. It is

29:03

so well written, so brilliant that

29:05

that's of. A. Book that I

29:07

most recently enjoyed. Of the many

29:09

books that I I'm always reading.

29:12

What's. The question you have for me? This.

29:14

Was asked by by Neil de Grasse

29:16

Tyson when he interviewed me. And.

29:19

I got this one spectacularly wrong.

29:22

I have the opportunities as a

29:24

brilliant question and I acted reflexively

29:26

just like you're asking me to

29:28

do right now and. In

29:30

so. That's one of the things that

29:32

I do when something happens to be are reflected

29:34

back of my mistake. as if I get that

29:37

second chance I will cause. I. Respect and

29:39

support. That to says it you know is interesting.

29:41

it's it dovetails a little bit was something you

29:43

said earlier a bad at the struggles that prodigies

29:46

have as they level up with his. You are

29:48

very quick on your feet. And.

29:50

I think that that makes it easy

29:52

for you to to respond with something

29:54

that's and compelling to the audience, but

29:57

to your point may not be your

29:59

best effort. Would. You basically saying

30:01

is that I B S Well now that's

30:03

not what I said, it's efforts at it

30:06

sir of it's truth I could have so

30:08

fathom. I feed your rights but it may

30:10

not be my best efforts. So.

30:13

I wanna save that one. I

30:15

am sorry Edmunds. save that one.

30:17

Said I ask you a great

30:19

question. Saved! Will land

30:21

on it. I definitely want to talk

30:24

about a eyes, and obviously Nhs probably

30:26

foreshadowed a lot of where we are

30:28

now in a way that that few

30:30

other domains. did. You been right at

30:32

the center of that for decades? and

30:34

are you even called some of the

30:36

the epic man vs Machine matches? Maybe

30:38

to set the stage a little bed

30:40

for what I'm most curious about a

30:42

what am I take away from watching

30:44

Twenty Blue. And. I remember

30:46

correctly. yes as current. Seen.

30:49

That I B M could build a computer

30:51

that could beat a human. That

30:53

it was really depressing to me. But the

30:55

and I found hope in saying that they

30:58

human computer team could beat either allowed. and

31:00

I bet there's a lot that we can

31:02

learn from. that about effective co piloting. Now

31:04

that all of us have access to generative

31:07

Ai tools that could potentially make a smarter

31:09

so it's would websites is here you ref

31:11

a little bit about what it, What are

31:13

the lessons from computers mastering chess and humans

31:16

learning to work with computers that that apply

31:18

to all of us. People. Were

31:21

genuinely terrified when they

31:23

were considering this match

31:25

and. thinking. About a

31:27

mass between a human and a

31:29

machine. Given. That. Humans

31:31

dominated machines a chance for so

31:34

long. In fact, the headline for

31:36

Newsweek. At. The time was

31:38

the brains last stand. Literally

31:41

this epic battle. No pressure

31:44

Garry Kasparov, but you are

31:46

the defender of humanity at

31:48

this moment in time. And

31:50

it turns out that it was

31:53

possible to program computers deploy chess.

31:55

Quite. Effectively. not just

31:58

through the calculating speed power

32:00

that they had, but also because the

32:02

humans were also able to teach it

32:04

and give it ideas that

32:07

humans had mastered over so many

32:09

years. And that

32:11

information just got grafted

32:13

onto its phenomenal calculating

32:15

capability. So we should

32:17

have seen the writing on the wall instead of

32:19

pretending that we were just going to be the

32:21

smartest chess-playing entities in the universe forever. I

32:24

had an argument with a grandmaster,

32:26

Raymond Keene, about this

32:29

after Gary Kasparov lost, and

32:31

he thought that this kind of engine competition,

32:33

computers playing against each other, would become the

32:36

norm. That chess

32:38

fans wanted to see perfect chess, and as

32:40

such, we would now rely on the computers

32:42

to do it. And I was

32:44

looking at him like he had three eyes, like, what

32:46

are you talking about? Because

32:49

I knew that humans want to crush other

32:51

humans. We want to trash talk our friends.

32:53

We don't care if the chess moves are

32:55

perfect. Sure there can be

32:57

mistakes. It's okay. We

32:59

just want to win against another human. And

33:03

history has played that out. We know

33:05

the kinds of things that

33:07

we need to operate in our space

33:10

that the AI does not

33:12

as yet. And I say

33:14

as yet because they're fast in coming. But

33:17

for now, we can co-pilot. We can show it,

33:21

or maybe we can use it to

33:23

give us great ideas, to generate great

33:25

ideas, but it is up to us

33:27

to decide which ones will be the

33:29

most effective. Yes. I love the way

33:31

you put that. One of the things

33:33

I've noticed so far is that AI is terrible

33:35

at coaching. Terrible. You

33:38

ask for advice on anything, and

33:41

so far, tools like Cloud and

33:43

Chat GPT give you the most

33:45

banal, trite suggestions you could possibly

33:47

think of. And

33:49

I think this is where there's still a great

33:51

human advantage. In addition to

33:53

being a grandmaster chess player, you are also

33:55

a world-class coach. And

33:57

I Want to close our conversation today by... Maybe

34:00

bringing some of your coaching genius to

34:02

the table. One of things I was

34:04

so impressed by about your coatings approach

34:06

and I imagine this is your parenting

34:09

approach to it is is the way

34:11

that you scaffold, you do the initial

34:13

instruction and then you take the support

34:15

away so that he had kids. players

34:17

get to learn their own independent sense

34:19

of responsibility and skill. Few days when

34:22

it's time to take the support away

34:24

and kind of let them go on

34:26

their own. I. Think that

34:28

it really comes down to life

34:30

experience. Paying careful attention. To.

34:33

Each child's. Treating each

34:35

trial as an individual, there's no formula.

34:38

For. When. One. Child

34:40

will grow. One child

34:42

is ready. It's. Just having

34:44

live long enough and I've lived long

34:47

enough now and coached enough and made

34:49

it of mistakes in coaching. To.

34:51

Know that. Every child

34:54

is different. Every child a special.

34:56

Every person is unique and. You

34:58

have to look slowly and think

35:01

about them first. Always.

35:03

Think about them for is not what

35:05

is the magic for you. But.

35:07

What is the the

35:09

key to unlocking their

35:11

greatest potential? And.

35:13

As long as you are very mindful of

35:15

the other and you let yourself. Get.

35:17

Out the way. As best you can,

35:20

you have the best chance to be a good coach.

35:22

I. Think what most people would ext expect

35:25

intuitively happened in reverse for you. So.

35:28

I think a lotta people would say you become

35:30

a chess grandmaster. And. Then you're ready

35:32

to be a great coach and take a

35:34

group of kids who are under trained and

35:36

under experience to a national championship. unit.

35:39

A backward. You. Became a

35:41

world class coats. On your

35:43

way to becoming a grandmaster. And.

35:46

I have come to believe that that's actually

35:48

a better strategy that you should teach what

35:50

you want to learn. That. You

35:52

said coach what you wanna refined

35:54

Am curious to hear your reaction

35:56

to that end. What impact coating

35:58

had on your. Development as a player.

36:01

That's an interesting point I might

36:03

push back in terms of necessarily

36:06

having this as the formula. The.

36:08

Do you start with teaching first? I

36:10

think it's very much depends on the

36:12

person part of what was. Good.

36:14

For me was that I was not that

36:16

good at chess right away. if I was.

36:19

A phenomenal prodigy. Then

36:22

I probably would be chasing the Grandmaster title

36:24

and not think about coaching. But. Because

36:26

I wasn't that good. I. Had

36:28

to go through the process of learning to

36:30

get better and I to work at it.

36:32

and I had to study as many books

36:35

as I could and I didn't have a

36:37

coach that was guiding me so it took

36:39

years for me to really know what was

36:42

garbage to look at versus what was the

36:44

best books to read to. Really does Still.

36:47

The best advice. From.

36:49

Everything that I was reading and

36:52

hearing and experiencing. And so I

36:54

think that because I wasn't a

36:56

prodigy and because I started as

36:59

a fourteen, it helped. Further,

37:01

Accelerate my understanding and my ability

37:03

to explain to others what it.

37:06

Takes. To. Get better at chess.

37:09

And. A then so happened that it

37:11

helped me to. Along the way.

37:14

But. I think that someone who is a prodigy

37:16

after they've become a Grandmaster, they'll see a lot

37:19

of insight as well in that they just get

37:21

out of their own way that they can share

37:23

these insights with others. And

37:25

it and I getting that's a nice

37:27

middle ground is consistent with assistance, dynamics,

37:29

ideas is acworth analogy and Maltase analogy

37:31

many past and one and I'll say

37:33

the same path can take it a

37:35

multiple ends. okay i'll trust

37:37

is is i have no idea what

37:40

is assess assess assess that have of

37:42

of he added that that's so okay

37:44

last question avid the a lot about

37:46

what teachers and coaches can learn from

37:48

you if they're not in chess it's

37:50

not always easy to think about how

37:53

do i teach the endgame s you

37:55

know if i am teaching geometry or

37:57

how do i coached the endgame if

37:59

i working with a debate team. How

38:02

would you think about reimagining education based on

38:04

what you've learned as a chess expert? I

38:07

think it is easy to do that actually

38:10

because a lot of

38:13

times kids don't understand why they're

38:15

learning things. Like why

38:17

am I learning algebra? There

38:19

seems to be no reason to

38:21

learn about these sine waves

38:23

and if you're learning

38:26

trigonometry and a squared plus

38:28

b squared equals c squared, who cares? What

38:30

is the significance of any of this, right?

38:34

So because we learn them abstractly, we

38:37

don't understand or the child doesn't come

38:39

to understand the applicability of this

38:41

knowledge. And that was the great thing about

38:43

chess is that everything you learn

38:45

could be applied. Everything. There's

38:48

not a single wasted bit of knowledge.

38:50

I have a niece who

38:52

was taking a physics class and

38:55

she got a 41 on the first test and

38:58

a 41 on the second test and the

39:00

midterm was on the way and she said Uncle,

39:03

I need to pass this test. We

39:05

were driving in the car and she had all

39:07

these formulas on

39:10

acceleration and distance and mass

39:12

and the whole nine velocity and

39:15

she had to graph things and when we were

39:17

in the car driving I said, okay She

39:19

had her graph paper in her and I

39:21

said it was raining and

39:23

I said graph the rain and

39:26

I said we're gonna start three stories high.

39:28

So let's call it 30 meters and

39:30

she had the distance 30 meters and then

39:32

she realized that acceleration was

39:36

the acceleration of gravity so she had her

39:38

9.8 meters per second squared

39:40

if I remember my acceleration numbers,

39:42

correct? And and

39:45

so suddenly she saw that in

39:47

the world around her these

39:49

concepts that she was learning could be

39:51

applied And we

39:53

did that we did it with passing cars. We

39:55

did with cars that weren't passing They were just

39:57

going at our speed so she understood that acceleration

40:00

was zero relative to us and

40:02

the light went off in her mind. And would

40:05

you believe it, she came back on

40:07

her midterm and got an 82. Wow, exactly 41 plus 41 that

40:09

she had gotten from

40:13

the first two exams. And

40:16

then she told me all her friends wanted me to teach

40:18

them physics. So the point

40:20

is that everything we

40:22

learn has some kind of correlative

40:25

value in life. And

40:27

for me, education should be that always

40:30

just find these connections. Well, Maurice, this has

40:32

been such a treat. I always learned so

40:34

much from you. And I can't wait for

40:37

an excuse to do it again. Thank you.

40:39

It's always a pleasure. Thanks, Adam. Maurice

40:43

is one of the quickest thinkers I've ever met,

40:46

which is why it's so important to hear him say,

40:48

you know what, I want to pause

40:50

and think about that. My most

40:52

important takeaway is that we spend too

40:54

much time thinking fast and shallow and

40:56

too little time thinking slow and deep.

40:58

We end up sounding smart at the

41:00

expense of being wise. Instead

41:02

of rushing to give rapid answers, we

41:05

should be more willing to say, this deserves

41:07

more than a quick reaction. Let

41:09

me give it some thought. Rethinking

41:12

is hosted by me, Adam Grant, and

41:15

produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our

41:17

team includes Colin Helm, Eliza Smith, Jacob

41:19

Winnick, Asia Simpson, Samaya Adams, Shell Quinn,

41:22

Ben Van Teng, Hannah Kingsley-Mogg, Julia Dickerson,

41:24

and Whitney Pennington-Rogers. This episode was produced

41:26

and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Our fact

41:29

checker is Paul Durbin, original music

41:31

by Han Tse-l Su and Alison Leighton-Boehn.

41:34

Now as a, you know, average

41:37

casual chess player, if I

41:39

have unlimited time, and

41:42

a grandmaster has 60 seconds

41:46

total for moves, do I have a shot or are you still

41:48

going to crash me? You're going to lose. I figured

41:52

as much. You're just

41:54

going to lose because again, the

41:57

pattern recognition, the intuitive speed,

42:00

speed of response, you'll

42:03

see fabulous moves get played that you could sit

42:05

for as long as you want and you'd think,

42:07

how come I didn't see that? Because

42:10

the patterns just instantly jump to

42:12

the grandmaster's mind. I

42:15

look forward to losing that one when we finally meet in

42:17

person.