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and more. Listen to Ted Talks

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Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Hey

0:34

everyone, it's Adam Grant. I'm

0:36

in the midst of my book tour for Hidden Potential. The

0:39

day before my LA event, the host,

0:41

Rainn Wilson, got COVID and had to

0:43

cancel. Jennifer Garner

0:45

kindly volunteered to step in, and the conversation

0:47

was fun and surprising in more ways than

0:50

I can count. The

0:52

outpouring of feedback from the audience afterwards sent

0:54

a clear message. We have

0:56

to make this into a podcast. So we

0:58

did. You've probably

1:00

admired Jen's range on screen, from

1:02

spy and superhero in Alias and Electra,

1:05

to dramatic roles in Juno and Dallas

1:07

Buyers Club, to comedic prowess in 13

1:10

Going on 30 and Family Switch. I've

1:13

been a fan since her early days on Felicity and

1:15

in Dude Where's My Car, and

1:17

more recently of her impact in advocating

1:19

for children and in co-founding an organic

1:21

baby food company, Once Upon a Farm.

1:25

Jen has won a Golden Globe for her

1:27

acting, but as you're about to hear, she's

1:29

every bit as talented in improv. I

1:40

do have a text from Rainn. He says, the

1:42

truth is I canceled tonight because I couldn't get

1:44

through your book. Thank

1:49

you, Rainn Wilson. I

1:52

felt like we should line up surprise

1:54

guests to take Rainn's place. So this

1:56

morning I sent a Hail Mary to

1:58

somebody I've admired for... for, I

2:01

don't know, 25 years, who

2:03

I've never met in person, who

2:05

wrote back within an hour and said, I got you,

2:09

and rearranged a very,

2:11

very busy schedule post-strike

2:14

in order to come here. Now, I

2:16

should say this person is no Dwight Schrute.

2:21

Has never sold paper, to my knowledge, but

2:25

could destroy Dwight in a

2:27

martial arts competition, judging

2:30

by several roles this person has mastered.

2:34

And also, in addition to being a

2:36

brilliant, award-winning actor, is one

2:38

of the only humans I've ever met with a heart as

2:40

big as rain. So

2:43

ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming

2:45

tonight, and please welcome Jennifer Garner. Oh!

3:00

Hi! Hi!

3:05

Wow, I'm Jen. Hi, Alex, how are

3:07

you? Hi, nice to meet you. Eat

3:10

that, Rainn Wilson. Did you hear? Oh

3:14

my gosh, I'm such a fan of his,

3:16

how about his book? Rainn Wilson's book, what

3:18

was it? The Soulboom. Soulboom, I loved

3:20

his book. I loved it until

3:22

he canceled. I still

3:24

love it, I still love it. Well,

3:26

your book, Adam, you see, I've

3:28

come out with all of my

3:30

stuff. Your book has

3:32

a lot to do with discomfort, and

3:35

I just feel like I should be

3:37

celebrated as the person who is the

3:39

most uncomfortable in the room. I don't know. Because

3:43

the time I've spent with this book

3:45

was the time it took me to drive from the West

3:47

Side. Oh! But

3:51

you know what? We're gonna be fine, you

3:53

guys. Just hangin', we've got Adam Grant here!

3:55

You know, I... I

4:02

understand that someone melted the freeway to give you

4:04

extra reading time. Which

4:07

I didn't even know was a thing. It's great to be

4:09

in LA. Yeah, we can invent

4:11

all kinds of ways to fuck up your

4:13

day. Wait,

4:17

Jennifer Garner Squares? Only

4:21

okay, don't let it leave this

4:23

room, okay? Okay. I have a

4:26

reputation to uphold

4:28

here. You

4:30

know what? I'm gonna dive in. Okay guys,

4:32

because I'll feel better once I've asked a

4:34

legitimate question. So bear with me.

4:36

We're just gonna dive in. You start

4:38

off because I did read the prologue.

4:46

Something you said early on really

4:48

hit me. It's

4:54

great, don't worry. Okay. It

4:59

says somebody

5:02

was able to predict the

5:04

success that students achieved as

5:06

adults simply by looking at

5:08

who taught their kindergarten class.

5:11

That's so cool. Kindergarten teachers

5:13

are amazing. You just see them like

5:16

tying shoes and wiping noses and counting

5:18

lost teeth. But they're

5:20

amazing. So can I ask you please,

5:23

Adam, Grant, why?

5:26

What is special? What is it about kindergarten

5:28

teachers? And tell

5:30

us about your kindergarten teacher because they must have

5:33

been bang up. Thank

5:36

you, I think. Okay, so let's start

5:39

with the data. So a great

5:41

team of economists, they show that the more

5:43

experienced kindergarten teachers set you up for adult

5:45

success, not by teaching you cognitive

5:47

skills, first and foremost, not by math and

5:49

reading, which they convey, but the edge

5:51

they give you in that wears off over time.

5:54

What they really instill that matters is our character

5:56

skills. They teach you to

5:58

be proactive and pro-social and disciplined. disciplined and

6:00

determined. I don't know, my

6:02

kindergarten teacher is Serena Baghdad. Wow.

6:06

I remember being really mad, we had to do a career day

6:09

and everyone wanted the football player and I

6:11

got the young executive. And

6:14

I had to walk in with a briefcase and

6:18

I walked in like a, I looked like a

6:20

Muppet. I forgot the briefcase and I had to

6:22

be reminded to go back and it was mortifying

6:24

and that was the beginning of my fear of

6:26

public speaking. Was it really? Yeah. Wow. I

6:30

don't want to freak you out. But

6:32

there are some people here tonight listening

6:35

to you speak. How did you

6:37

become comfortable? Was it because of your

6:39

kindergarten teacher? No, it doesn't sound like it.

6:41

No, what makes you think I'm comfortable? You're

6:46

claiming to be uncomfortable but you do this for a living,

6:48

Jen. Come on. I don't do this

6:50

for a living. I learn my lines, dude. I

6:53

don't, this is not how I show up

6:55

to set. But okay, yeah, so

6:57

I do this for a living. Tell me.

7:02

You are so much edgier than you claim to be. I

7:04

love it. Okay,

7:06

so yeah, I did get more, I got

7:08

less uncomfortable. Can we go with that? Okay.

7:12

Okay, so I was, it was my first semester

7:14

of grad school. I realized I'm supposed to

7:16

be a professor, professor's professor. I

7:19

should probably learn to get over my fear of public speaking.

7:21

And I went through all of college where, if I even

7:23

thought about raising my hand, I would literally start to shake.

7:26

And so I felt like I had to do something about it. And I

7:29

asked a bunch of my friends if they would let me

7:31

give guest lectures in their classes. I was

7:33

able to do a few of these. It was really uncomfortable

7:35

for a long time. And I guess that was foreshadowing because,

7:38

I don't know, three, four years later, I was in

7:40

my mid 20s and I got asked by the

7:42

Air Force to teach a four hour class on

7:44

motivation. But I'm terrified these people are gonna be

7:46

twice my age and they all have

7:48

like scary Top Gun nicknames.

7:51

Yeah. They have thousands

7:53

of flying hours. They wear bars on their,

7:55

you know. Yeah, I have no business, but

7:57

they asked me to do it. So I

7:59

show up. and I literally pour

8:01

everything I know into four hours. Four

8:03

hours, dude, that's a lot of public speaking. It

8:06

was a lot of time. Okay. There

8:08

were like 50 of them, and I got

8:10

the feedback forms afterward, and they were

8:12

less kind than the students. One

8:16

of the generals wrote, more

8:18

knowledge in the audience than on the podium.

8:21

Well... And I was like, fact. Yeah,

8:24

that's not... Obviously, I mean, come

8:26

on. So what did you learn

8:28

from practicing and getting feedback? You

8:31

changed your approach, right? A little

8:33

bit. So... Yeah.

8:35

Yeah. Well, okay, so the thing... You

8:37

think we're still early days, and I'm still up to date. The

8:40

thing that

8:42

I think really moved the needle for me

8:44

was the one colonel who wrote, I gained

8:46

nothing from this session, but I

8:49

trust the instructor got useful insight. So

8:56

here's the problem. I wanted to quit, but I

8:58

had committed to do a second session for

9:00

a different group in the Air Force, and I only had a

9:02

week. I didn't have time to

9:04

reboot my content. I couldn't change really any of

9:06

it except the way I introduced myself. So

9:09

I asked everybody at the

9:11

session that I could find, like, what is

9:13

the one thing I can do better next time? And they

9:15

said, all of them said, change the way you introduce yourself.

9:18

As this kid, you're trying to establish your credentials.

9:21

You're trying to prove your expertise. And

9:23

in the room, if you look around, Stryker and

9:25

Sandune were having none of it. Yeah.

9:30

So you got to do something about this. And I'm

9:32

like, all right, what do I do? We like a

9:34

movie joke here. You can keep that coming. Okay.

9:37

That, by the way, has exhausted all my pop culture

9:39

knowledge. But there

9:41

are some people in the audience who can help with that, I hope.

9:43

And maybe you can too. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway,

9:46

long story short, I walked in

9:49

the next week and did what went against

9:51

every fiber of my being. I said, I've

9:53

got to call out the elephant in the room. And

9:56

admit that I don't know what the hell I'm doing. So

9:59

walked in. I looked out

10:01

at the audience, all these stone-faced senior

10:04

military officers, and I

10:06

said, look, I know what you all are thinking right now.

10:09

What could I possibly learn from a professor who's 12

10:11

years old? They

10:15

did not find that amusing at all. At

10:18

all. And then after what

10:20

felt like an eternity, one of them said, ah,

10:22

ridiculous, you gotta be at least 13. And

10:26

that broke the ice, and I had a completely

10:29

different interaction with them, and the feedback was much

10:31

more positive, and I learned that it's

10:33

much better to admit what I don't know than to claim that

10:35

I know a lot of stuff. Oh,

10:37

wow. Okay, that's

10:40

a good one. You got

10:42

us there, didn't you, pal? Okay, great,

10:44

great, great. Wait a minute, okay, so Jen,

10:46

let me turn this around on you. Okay.

10:49

You told me backstage that you are

10:54

something who has frequently

10:56

put yourself in uncomfortable situations. Yeah.

11:01

in acting, I also wanna hear about learning to ski as an adult. I

11:04

feel that way at work all the time.

11:06

I mean, I think probably a lot of us

11:08

do, where we are

11:10

terrified and that's why we take the job

11:13

and then we get there and we think, why did I do this?

11:15

And you spend kind of half of

11:17

your time getting your feet under you and

11:19

feeling like I'm in over my head, but. Wait,

11:21

did you feel that way on Felicity? Wait,

11:24

is anyone in the audience also old enough to have

11:26

watched Felicity in college? Okay. My

11:28

wife and I both love that show and we've been

11:31

fans of yours ever since we watched it. Oh

11:33

my gosh, good old Hannah. I just rewatched

11:35

it recently because there's a

11:37

Felicity podcast that I needed

11:40

to know what I had done to talk

11:42

about it. And. Do

11:44

you have notes? Yes,

11:46

as a matter of fact. But yes, of course I felt

11:48

that way. I just, I always

11:50

do. I don't think I ever don't.

11:52

I think that's what keeps me interested

11:54

is that I will never

11:57

perfect it. Like men feel about golf

11:59

or something. people feel about golf? You

12:02

know, I'll never fully, I know

12:04

enough things to feel like, okay, I

12:06

can master how to do this. Like,

12:08

if there's a hallway and there's a

12:10

door and you want me to enter

12:12

the door and look back over my

12:14

shoulder at camera just before I enter

12:16

the door to tell you, hey, I'm

12:19

sneaking, I can do that better

12:21

than anyone and get that

12:23

down that spy kind of stuff, I can

12:25

do it. But other than that,

12:27

I always feel off my rocker. But no,

12:30

I learned to ski at 40. I

12:33

have this image of you going on the ski slope

12:35

for the first time and being like, what would Sydney

12:37

Bristow do? Sydney really changed me as

12:39

a person because she had so much

12:41

more bravado than I did. And she

12:43

believed in herself in a way that I

12:45

don't know that I did at that

12:47

age at that time. Yeah, walking

12:50

like her, it

12:53

affected me, it gave me more confidence. But

12:55

anyway, we're here to talk about you. I

12:58

have more questions. We keep going. Okay, okay, okay.

13:01

Can we talk about the process

13:03

of writing itself and the process

13:05

and just the stumble,

13:07

the block of procrastination? I

13:10

mean, how do you procrastinate? What does it

13:12

look like for you? What's the way past

13:14

it? What's the magic bullet? I've

13:16

gone on the record saying I'm not a procrastinator.

13:19

I'm the opposite. I'm a procrastinator. When

13:21

I have a deadline, I'm finishing at least

13:23

three months early, maybe six months early. And...

13:27

Us too, right? No,

13:29

no, no. This is

13:31

not as great as it seems. One, because it

13:33

made me a really annoying college roommate, I learned

13:35

the hard way. And two, it

13:38

kills creativity because you rush in with your

13:40

first idea instead of waiting for your best

13:42

idea. And an amazing PhD student

13:44

named Ji Hei Shin had to do the research

13:46

to prove to me that I was stifling my

13:48

own creativity by doing things early. But

13:51

I think more importantly, I learned while writing

13:53

this book that I was wrong. I am

13:56

not always a procrastinator. There are things I

13:58

procrastinate on. And one of them is... I

14:00

hate editing more than any other part of my

14:02

job. I feel like I've

14:04

already figured out the idea. I know

14:07

the study, I've captured the story. I'm

14:10

like, I'm the one yard line, and that extra

14:12

bit takes a ton of work and I don't

14:14

care about it, but I know the reader does.

14:17

I hate that. So what

14:19

do you do? So the editing thing I

14:21

really struggle with is imagery. I'm

14:24

way too cognitive and abstract, and

14:26

I need to get the vividness and the story and the

14:28

emotion and I need to over index on that. And

14:31

normally I just find that really boring and

14:33

repetitive and stressful. And this time what

14:35

I did was I tried to

14:37

impersonate different writers that I admire and

14:40

write in their voice. So

14:42

one morning I got up and I was like, okay, I'm gonna

14:44

rewrite this paragraph in the voice of Maya Angelou. Wow,

14:47

really? I picked a bunch

14:49

of my favorite fiction writers who were really good at

14:52

that kind of imagery. And I thought to myself, okay,

14:54

can I write the John Green version of this? Can I

14:57

write the Maggie Smith version of this? And

14:59

that is a really good exercise because it forces

15:01

me to enjoy editing and it makes it fun

15:03

and playful. And would you find something

15:05

in there that you could use or did it

15:07

just unlock you going back in your own

15:09

voice? Yeah, I think in a lot of

15:11

cases what it's done is it's allowed me

15:14

to step outside of my hyperlinear, let

15:16

me give this the academic treatment and

15:19

into the, let's be a little more

15:21

playful and let's tell a story that

15:23

may not have a perfect resolution. Okay,

15:26

very cool. So thinking

15:29

about that, how much of a

15:31

perfectionist are you, everybody

15:33

has their own struggles with it. I

15:36

always say I am not type A, I'm

15:38

type Z, I forget things, I send the

15:40

kids to school without the very homework that

15:42

I was supposed to sign that they said

15:44

they took care of and said, mom, please

15:46

sign and then I sign it and I

15:48

leave it in the wrong room. Like

15:50

I just am not. But

15:52

at the same time, I think I might be a

15:55

little bit of a perfectionist sometimes and get in my

15:57

own way. So can you talk

15:59

about that? and how does perfectionism much

16:01

with you? I can try.

16:03

So I was really excited to write this

16:06

chapter because I felt like I had transcended

16:08

perfectionism. Turns out, I'm still in

16:10

recovery. One

16:12

of the ways I discovered it was I wrote a little quiz that

16:15

people could take to figure out how they scored on the different character

16:18

skills in the book and as you

16:20

always do when you write an assessment, you take it yourself and

16:22

I took it and my lowest score

16:24

was on accepting imperfections. So

16:26

I failed my own head. I

16:29

knew what the questions were, I still could not do

16:31

it. So this is really embarrassing.

16:35

So I think when it first got me in trouble

16:37

was when I was a springboard diver, which

16:41

was also a bad choice of sports because I was

16:43

afraid of heights. Okay.

16:46

So you decide to be a diver and what

16:49

was it, just

16:52

can you tell us about your coach and

16:54

about what was special about him and perfectionism

16:57

and other things that take up some

16:59

time? Yeah. I

17:01

feel like we're done. Yes.

17:11

Yes, I certainly could. So

17:15

I had an exceptional coach, Eric Best. When I would stand

17:17

at the end of the board frozen, he would ask me,

17:19

Adam, are you gonna do this stuff?

17:22

And I remember being like, ever? Yes,

17:26

of course, one day I will do this stuff. And he was

17:28

like, great, then what are you waiting for? I have heard

17:30

that voice in my head every single time I've been afraid

17:32

to try something new. When I was

17:34

hesitating to write my first book, I heard Eric's

17:36

voice, are you gonna write this book one day?

17:39

Yes, then what are you waiting for? The

17:41

lessons of coaches and teachers, aren't

17:43

they amazing? And they seem to

17:45

be able to impart those character

17:47

lessons better than anyone. Like

17:49

my ballet teacher growing up, I was never

17:51

ever gonna be a dancer, but

17:54

she did work so hard and

17:56

with so much integrity that

17:58

it made me feel like, well, I just... I just want

18:00

her to be impressed by me that just

18:02

a little bit. I knew I

18:04

couldn't impress her with my dance, but that she saw,

18:08

I mean, you know facts, but just

18:10

that she saw that I cared enough,

18:12

right? That's

18:15

amazing. And you talk about that, those soft

18:17

skills. What are the other ones? Well,

18:20

I actually wanna call out something that I think

18:22

is really powerful in this example of yours, which

18:24

is I think so often parents think that's on

18:26

me. Yeah. And

18:28

the reality is that your kids usually don't wanna hear it

18:30

from you. First of all, they

18:33

think that you're biased. Like you have to tell me I'm

18:35

special. And so they often discount it.

18:37

And secondly, because they don't wanna be controlled

18:40

by their parents, they often resist the very

18:42

thing you're trying to motivate them to do.

18:44

And so, one of the... It's so frustrating.

18:46

It is. Because you know and

18:48

they don't wanna listen. Well, or

18:51

maybe you don't know and you think you know, is the

18:53

thing I always have to remind myself of. I know. But

18:56

I feel very confident in my knowledge.

18:59

Yes. But I think so often what

19:01

a parent has to do is get out of the way

19:03

and say, let me find that coach who's the right source

19:05

for the message that I think is really important. So

19:08

how do you know when you find that coach?

19:10

I mean, is it that they're fun? Is it

19:12

that they are tough? Is it that... What is

19:14

it that you look for? I

19:17

don't know if there's one magic ingredient.

19:19

I think from the Benjamin Bloom research, I

19:22

think the most important thing is the first

19:24

teacher and the coach who makes learning

19:27

fun. That's what predicts better than anything else

19:29

that I know that you can measure whether

19:31

you go on to achieve greater things. In

19:33

anything, whatever it is you're learning. Even piano.

19:36

Yes, even piano. Did you not

19:38

like the piano? Damn it. No,

19:40

no, but I find it

19:42

really hard to convince children

19:45

of mine the

19:49

value in it and I just don't

19:51

understand. So then I decided if they

19:53

have that about something else

19:55

that isn't piano, like say they have it

19:57

about learning to solve a Rubik's Cube You

20:00

say they have it about, I don't know, all kinds of

20:02

kid things. Is that applicable? Is

20:05

it, it's just having it, right? Yeah, it's,

20:07

I think the, so many parents, I think

20:09

the Mozart effect is one of the worst

20:11

things that's ever happened to parents. You're like,

20:14

oh, my kid is only gonna become really

20:17

impressive and achieve whatever their potential is

20:19

if they get into music. It's

20:21

like, no, whatever the activity is, it's a Trojan horse.

20:24

What you're smuggling in are a set of character

20:26

skills, and I mean, honestly, Jen, I don't

20:29

say this publicly, generally, but I think

20:31

before diving, the best place for me

20:34

learning character skills was video games. Ah!

20:38

I know, blasphemy, right? Ah!

20:42

No one showed this to my son.

20:44

What? Why?

20:48

What? Because you lose, and it's really

20:50

frustrating, and you have to build the

20:52

resilience and the grit to

20:54

try again and then improve your skills, and

20:57

you get reinforced for that, and you level up, and I

20:59

would sit there trying to beat a game, and that's what

21:02

I do as a writer now. I

21:04

have to sit there with a blinking cursor and try

21:06

to defeat it. Same skill.

21:08

Whoa! Okay, what were

21:10

you playing? Was it Frogger? Ah!

21:15

No. It started

21:17

out with Super Mario Brothers, of course,

21:20

and then graduated to... Dun dun

21:22

dun dun dun dun dun dun

21:24

dun dun dun dun dun. Okay,

21:26

go ahead. Yeah. Then

21:30

it was Zelda, then it was Mario Kart

21:32

and Mortal Kombat. Mortal

21:34

Kombat? Yeah. Yeah, first

21:37

person shooter. It's not a shooter, it's a

21:39

fighter, come on. I don't know, I don't do these things.

21:41

Okay, all right. You literally

21:43

had played Mortal Kombat characters

21:45

almost multiple times. You

21:48

did it on Alias, you did it in Daredevil, and

21:50

you did it in Electra, and some of us hope

21:52

you will do it in the Marvel Cinematic Universe again.

21:55

Ooh! Interesting.

22:03

Okay. All right. That's

22:06

a real key insight we just learned here

22:10

about the video games. I have to tell you,

22:12

I did a whole podcast on this last

22:15

year because so many parents were

22:17

upset about the initial post, but there's

22:20

a really good set of meta-analyses,

22:22

studies of studies, longitudinal studies, and

22:25

randomized controlled experiments showing that video

22:27

games actually build willpower and self-control.

22:29

Wow. Surprise, surprise. Every

22:32

11-year-old boy's best friend. To be

22:34

fair, I didn't have very many friends as an

22:36

11-year-old boy. Oh,

22:39

my God. Oh, man. Wow. You can

22:41

hang with Sam Affleck anytime. Okay. So

22:43

can you tell me, as a big,

22:45

big fan of up to

22:51

page 73, what's

22:53

your favorite story in the book? Favorite

22:56

story in the book? Hard

23:00

to argue with the raging rooks in

23:02

the prologue. I love them. I was

23:04

even tempted to carry them through the whole book, but

23:06

then I realized it's too much writing on one story.

23:09

Well, the raging rooks, they have main character

23:11

energy, so tell us a little bit

23:13

about them. I

23:15

think the main thing to know about them is their

23:18

coach, Maurice Ashley, changed the way that I

23:20

think about coaching. So Maurice took

23:22

a bunch of poor racial minorities in Harlem.

23:25

He helped them seek more potential in themselves

23:27

than anyone saw in them, including their parents

23:29

and their teachers and them. And

23:32

one of the things he did that I thought

23:34

was brilliant was he taught them chess. They were

23:36

trying to learn chess against all these ritzy private

23:38

schools. He taught them chess backward. Instead

23:41

of teaching, okay, here's an opening move, like

23:43

you can move your king's pawn up two

23:45

squares, he would put a few pieces

23:47

on the board and have them just try to check me.

23:50

And he said, I don't care if they know how to

23:52

play. What I want is for them to get the thrill

23:54

of victory and the pain of defeat. And

23:56

I want them to be motivated by feeling

23:58

like they can win and motivate. by the

24:01

fact that they just lost. And once you

24:03

have that satisfaction, then, and also that frustration,

24:05

then you can rewind and start learning the

24:07

skills to get the game going. I

24:09

thought that was ingenious, and I think that everything should

24:11

be taught and game first. So

24:14

good. It's so good. And

24:16

they won. They did win.

24:18

Yeah. Which was one of my favorite

24:20

parts of the story, but I think the interesting part, which

24:23

we won't spoil here, is why they won. Jen,

24:25

can I ask you, why did you say yes to this? Because...

24:28

I... No, I don't mean

24:31

it that way. I don't. I don't. What

24:35

I mean is, I

24:37

didn't even know we were friends. And... And

24:41

you said, of course

24:43

I would do this for a friend, and I was just

24:46

blown away by your kind of... You really were helpful to

24:48

me. Do you remember that?

24:50

I did nothing. Yes, you did. We

24:52

had a phone call. I was trying to figure

24:54

out how to give a TED Talk as an

24:56

unyet given TED Talk about what... World

24:59

poverty in the United States. And

25:01

you took time to help a

25:04

stranger and to talk

25:06

to me for a really long time and talk me through it,

25:08

and then I think we spoke again, and

25:10

then emailed. I mean, that's

25:12

friendship, right guys? And I feel like if you're

25:14

gonna give a yes, give a yes right away.

25:18

You know, just be a full on, you

25:20

got it. So

25:22

you, I mean, I think you've invested, what, five

25:24

or six hours just to do this. That's okay.

25:27

It's totally my pleasure. And

25:29

now I got to be with all you guys, and

25:31

now I'm well into an awesome book. And

25:33

I... Rationalizing your decision

25:36

right here. No,

25:38

I just, I was really stunned. You are

25:40

one of the rare people who's actually more

25:42

impressive up close than from a distance. Oh

25:45

my gosh. Oh,

25:47

so nice. Thank you. Undeserved

25:51

and very kind. Can I ask you another question about your

25:53

book? Are we done talking about me? If

25:56

you want to. Okay, I do. I

25:59

have more questions. If

26:01

you were designing a school, your perfect

26:03

school, what would it

26:06

look like? What would be different about it than what

26:08

we have now? I'd reverse the trend for

26:10

kindergarten to be more like first grade. And

26:13

I'd make kindergarten more like recess. Oh

26:16

yeah. I would even

26:18

say before that, I would add

26:21

bloop, bloop, bloop, bloop, all the way down to

26:23

babies. To mommy and

26:25

me, to universal. Moving your

26:27

way up to very early preschool,

26:30

childcare. Can

26:32

we just say that if wishes grew on trees, high

26:35

quality, early education, high quality childcare

26:38

so that moms could be there

26:41

and so that the brain

26:43

architects of daycare workers and

26:45

of preschool teachers could

26:47

be in there bringing

26:50

these kids' brains to life. I

26:52

mean that seems no pun intended. I couldn't know

26:54

a brainer. Yeah. We were just with

26:57

Nick Christophe, right? Yes. So Nick wrote,

26:59

I thought, the best article I've read on this topic, it's

27:01

called Too Small to Fail. Yep. And

27:04

science is so clear. Early childhood education

27:06

and placement. And we don't spend a cent

27:08

on kids until they're five as a country.

27:11

Wait. Especially when

27:13

you're in places in this country

27:15

where parents haven't had it modeled,

27:17

haven't had, they don't have books

27:19

in the home, they haven't had

27:21

early childhood singing, playing, reading

27:24

too modeled for them. They don't have neighbors.

27:26

They don't have community to lift them up

27:28

in mommy and me classes or anything like

27:31

it. And you don't have a shot if

27:33

you don't have a shot, right? If all

27:35

of us got to kindergarten and we were

27:37

all in remediation the first day we started

27:39

kindergarten and we know how smart we are,

27:42

we would hate it. And your brain has

27:44

to do something so it's gotta think of

27:46

ways to hate school then, right? Because

27:49

you're never gonna make it up so you have to go in

27:51

ready to learn. In our school,

27:53

Adam, we're gonna start with babies and

27:55

we're gonna get them into kindergarten ready

27:57

to learn. We just started a school, I love it. Yeah.

28:00

Yeah, okay. No, I mean this

28:03

I do not understand how this doesn't compute

28:05

for people I'm like you pulled yourself up

28:07

by your bootstraps, but what if you didn't

28:09

have any boots? Yeah, how are you

28:11

gonna do that? So

28:14

I grew up in West Virginia I was

28:16

surrounded by rural generational poverty But I grew

28:18

up in a middle-class house My

28:21

mom grew up in Oklahoma on a farm

28:23

where she was really really happy, but they

28:25

didn't have much at all and She

28:28

kept getting a little bit of

28:30

luck her way that led her to college

28:32

and then that changed everything for my sisters

28:35

and me and I was

28:37

very aware that there were kids in my class

28:39

who were not gonna have that same kind of

28:41

luck and In that first and

28:43

second grade and it felt really unfair to me then

28:45

and it kept feeling unfair and

28:47

it kept feeling like People like

28:49

my mom or people like these kids are

28:51

not talked about enough Can

28:54

you tell us a little bit about your work with save the children? I Went

28:57

looking for the organization with the most efficacy

28:59

in rural America and it would save the

29:01

children because saves overall mission in the hundred

29:04

years of helping over a billion kids is

29:07

To go where nobody else wants to go

29:09

and in America that's rural and I just

29:11

go and sit with people and learn and

29:13

see what their lives are like and then

29:15

I watch the Magic that the save the

29:17

children home visitor creates in their house Just

29:20

by encouraging the mom or the caretaker the

29:22

dad to sing

29:24

to their baby play with them Just encouraging them

29:26

to show them they have all the tools they need

29:28

to raise a successful kid who's ready to learn Can

29:31

we go back to our school though? Yeah, okay. We

29:34

got that figured out. All right now We're

29:37

gonna have a program where I just actually heard

29:39

about this from a teacher today I

29:41

got a great email from a teacher this morning who said Like

29:44

loved your idea of letting kids choose their own

29:46

books instead of like shoving the classics down their

29:48

throats like simple not rocket science She said what

29:50

I do is I hide books in the classroom

29:53

for kids to find we're gonna

29:55

do that We're gonna play a book hide-and-seek

29:57

or like scavenger hunt and

29:59

we're gonna get kids excited about reading that way.

30:02

I love that. Okay, all right, great. Keep

30:04

it coming. Okay, what else are we

30:06

gonna do? So they're gonna play outside.

30:09

They're gonna have recess for a whole year and

30:11

just play. And everybody just

30:13

has to find something they're interested

30:15

in and follow it. I can

30:17

get behind that. I had a

30:20

student years ago, Lauren McCann, who came

30:22

up with this great idea for college seniors to

30:24

write letters to their freshman selves and

30:26

then give them to entering freshmen so that they

30:29

can avoid the mistakes of their predecessors. I

30:32

would love to do that for graduating elementary

30:34

schoolers and middle schoolers and high schoolers. Wow,

30:37

yeah, okay. Around

30:41

New Year's, we get a little obsessed with

30:43

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30:45

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30:47

or scheduling me time into our day. Therapy

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30:52

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30:55

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31:01

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31:07

That's betterhelp, h-e-l-p.com/rethinking.

31:14

So what else do you wanna talk about? Because

31:16

I have more questions for you. Wait, I have

31:18

more questions? It's not like I don't have

31:20

questions. Can we talk about your

31:23

over-preparing for a second? Over-preparing, what

31:25

are you talking about? Oh my gosh.

31:29

I told you this morning, you do not have to read

31:31

the book. In fact, I prefer that you don't read the

31:33

book because then I'm gonna tell you stuff that you already

31:36

know. Okay. As

31:38

opposed to you being surprised. And yet, you defied

31:40

my instructions. You read

31:42

a lot of the book. You have it underlined and

31:44

there are corners folded. So why

31:46

did you ignore my advice? Because I've

31:50

never shown up to anything that's unprepared in

31:52

my whole life. Except

31:54

for a couple of auditions, let's face facts.

31:58

Oh, so this is you learning your line. Yeah,

32:00

exactly. It's me learning my lines in the

32:02

cab on the way to audition. OK,

32:05

so hang on. I like this one. I

32:07

underlined this one. Don't hold yourself hostage to

32:09

a fixed routine. And that's kind of

32:11

like you writing Maya Angelou, right?

32:14

Or not that. No. No,

32:16

I wish. No, that's actually.

32:18

It's either that, or it's not that, or it's

32:20

not that at all. Oh, to

32:23

avoid burnout. Tell us about that, Adam. I think

32:25

the thing that a lot of people do is

32:27

they think they have to push themselves in order

32:29

to get through whatever is hard

32:31

in their job or in the skill they're trying to

32:33

build. And what they forget is

32:35

that pushing yourself through the daily grind is not

32:37

going to be sustainable in the long run. You're

32:39

much better off trying to turn the daily grind

32:41

into a source of daily joy. And

32:43

the way you do that is to actually build play into

32:46

your skill development. So this is why I'm trying

32:48

to write in different voices. It makes

32:50

writing more fun, and more playful, and less exhausting, and less

32:53

boring. And I think people could do that at any job.

32:56

I once did a study with a couple of

32:58

colleagues. I remember this one nurse in particular in

33:00

our experiment. She had this horrible task of giving

33:02

kids allergy shots. And this nurse couldn't

33:04

stand the experience of kids coming in

33:07

and thinking, this person's trying to hurt me.

33:09

And our experiment was on just reinvent your

33:11

job title. It was really simple. It's the

33:13

first thing that most people learn about you.

33:16

What if you could choose something that was more creative

33:18

and more self-reflective? And a

33:20

lot of skeptics said, this is never going to work.

33:23

A title is just a bunch of words. It doesn't

33:25

matter. I've seen this

33:27

work. And sure enough, when we randomly assigned

33:29

people to create their own self-reflective job title,

33:31

their burnout went down over the next five

33:33

weeks. And the nurse who's giving allergy shots

33:35

helped me understand why. Her title that she

33:37

came up with was Nurse Quickshot. She

33:42

introduced herself to families that way. You would walk in,

33:44

and she'd be like, hi, I'm Nurse Quickshot. Nice to

33:46

meet you. The kids lit up. All

33:48

of a sudden, they realized this person is actually

33:50

trying to minimize my pain, not accentuated. They

33:53

would ask for Nurse Quickshot by name when

33:56

they came back. The parents were relieved. It

33:58

was a whole thing. I

34:00

think that giving people autonomy over how

34:02

they present themselves is a really

34:04

basic form of freedom and we ought to have that

34:06

along with many other kinds. I

34:08

love that. Thanks. I

34:12

have to say, you're really good at taking

34:14

whatever I don't have there and turning it

34:17

into gold and I really, I appreciate that

34:19

about you. I feel

34:21

like I've started to develop my own

34:23

job title. Yeah? Yeah, I feel

34:25

like when I get on stage now, I've been turned

34:27

into a human jukebox. Yeah.

34:30

Somebody can give a topic and I'm like, here's

34:32

a study that I once read and

34:34

now I'm gonna not feel like I wasted the time

34:37

reading the study or doing the study because someone else

34:39

will learn about it. How do you guys think up

34:41

your studies? What is it come

34:43

from? I mean, usually it comes from

34:45

having conversations with people out in the world who

34:47

are stuck on something and like seeing, in this

34:49

case, Make-A-Wish had reached out for

34:51

help when I was in grad school and they

34:53

were all extremely exhausted doing some of

34:55

the most heartbreaking work I've ever seen

34:59

and they had this incredibly visionary leader, Susan

35:01

Centers Lurch and Susan says, I want you

35:03

all to come up with your own job

35:05

titles and there was like a person in

35:07

accounting who's like, I am

35:09

not part of the Make-A-Wish mission at all and

35:12

she ended up coming up with her title as keeper of

35:15

keys and grounds and

35:17

she was like the Hagrid

35:19

of Make-A-Wish and like it

35:21

really, it just injected some

35:23

levity and joy into her day and her

35:25

interactions. That's a study. We

35:28

should see if that works. So

35:30

that's usually where my ideas come from. What's

35:33

it like to be your kid? If

35:37

you're a jukebox for us, what are you like

35:39

as a dad? Do you

35:41

make yourself, do you try to temper? Yes,

35:44

a lot. My

35:46

wife, Alison, very often has to say

35:48

to me, you

35:51

don't wanna be the psychologist who screws up your kid,

35:55

which is apparently a common thing. I

35:57

think what I've tried to do with our kid is... to

36:01

be as open as possible about the things that

36:03

I'm bad at. Last winter, I was supposed to

36:05

give a speech, and our kids, for the first

36:07

time ever, came to one of my talks, and

36:10

afterward, our son came up, he was nine, and

36:12

he said, Dad, somehow you were actually funny. I

36:18

was like, that is the best back-ended compliment

36:20

I've ever gotten. Normally,

36:23

they make fun of my dad jokes, and

36:25

I deliberately make more dad

36:28

jokes, because I want them to see

36:30

me bad at stuff, and willing to

36:32

laugh at myself. And I guess

36:34

I'm like the butt of all of our family jokes. And

36:37

I'm not funny, but they're laughing at me. How

36:40

about you? Talk about what

36:42

you're like as a parent. Oh.

36:49

I mean, I'm kind of, I

36:51

guess, in an just annoying way, I'm kind

36:53

of what you would think I would be.

36:57

Go on. I just have

36:59

big cookies, and I like, ooh.

37:03

And I'm like, you know, you're gonna

37:05

get me a lot, and

37:10

you know, I'm

37:13

kind of your worst nightmare. Wait,

37:17

why is that bad? Just because

37:20

it's so, I don't know,

37:22

it's just so. Test?

37:25

Yeah. I

37:27

don't know, those are good qualities, as far as I'm

37:29

concerned. Yeah, I don't know. Ask my kids. No,

37:33

I arranged for my

37:35

son's class to

37:39

get a special viewing of this movie I have

37:41

coming out, Family Switch on Netflix. And

37:43

it's like exactly for his age

37:45

group. Exactly. All right, I'm going to

37:48

tell you something really personal and

37:50

vulnerable here right now. My son

37:52

said, he heard about it, and he was

37:54

like, Mom, it's as if

37:56

you're giving every person in my class a cake

37:58

with your face on it. And

38:02

then they're supposed to tell you how

38:04

great the cake is and how pretty

38:06

they think you are. And

38:09

I was like, you're not wrong. You're

38:12

not wrong. But I think you're going

38:14

to like the movie. I don't know.

38:18

You can be sick that day. The teacher

38:20

asked. I said it up. It's happening. I

38:22

don't know what to tell you. So

38:26

it's happening. Wow. That's painful. Yeah. All

38:29

the cakes. I'm passing out all

38:31

the cake. OK.

38:33

This reminds me of something you

38:35

said backstage on our way in

38:38

about about dealing with age

38:40

as an actor. Oh, because

38:42

you said something. You said something

38:44

about appreciating progress depends

38:46

on remembering how your past

38:49

self would see your current

38:51

achievements. So you think

38:53

that you haven't gotten anywhere. But when you were

38:55

first learning, what would you have thought if you

38:58

could say right. And I said,

39:00

this is the same. The inverse is true for

39:02

aging that at 51.

39:04

I tell myself if I get like, oh

39:06

my gosh, what's happening? I want I squinting

39:08

and like things are falling. It's

39:11

fine. But I'll tell

39:13

myself, you know, dude,

39:15

it's imagine in 15

39:17

years you're going to think I wish I looked

39:19

like I looked at 51. And

39:21

a half. So you might as well enjoy it because it's not

39:24

like it's going to go the other way. So

39:26

live it up. Yuck it right on

39:28

up. It

39:31

reminded me of one of my college roommates who

39:33

said to another one of our roommates, listen,

39:36

you should never be down on yourself because you're

39:38

only going to get uglier from here. Exactly.

39:42

Thank you. Your college roommates

39:44

really understood. That's amazing. Wait. There's something

39:46

that you gloss over, which is do

39:48

you call yourself dude? If

39:51

I need to, if it's appropriate in

39:53

the conversation. Yeah. So interesting.

39:55

You're reminding me of Ethan Cross's work on self

39:57

talk where he finds that if you talk to

39:59

yourself. in the second or third

40:01

person, it's actually more motivating.

40:05

Because it's distancing, it feels like someone else

40:07

is telling you to do the thing. Bra,

40:10

bra, get it together bra.

40:15

You've never said that to yourself. I

40:17

don't know, I have little kids, so

40:19

yeah, come across. Wow, that's

40:21

amazing. Okay,

40:26

let's see. I love your segways. I

40:29

really love them. Okay, here's something that I

40:31

want to know legitimately and so do we. We

40:35

are aligned. I

40:38

like how you co-opted my audience. Who

40:41

didn't even know you were gonna be here. Yep, keep going. Okay,

40:45

true, they give me such a nice welcome. So

40:49

how did writing this book change you? Because

40:51

I imagine each book, I mean, if I

40:54

think of Sydney, she changed me. How

40:56

did this book change you? That's

40:58

a really good question. I think, I

41:02

didn't expect it to change me because I feel like when

41:04

I sit down to write a book, I want to teach

41:06

something that I've learned. And so I've kind of already figured

41:08

it out. And I've realized

41:10

that if that's what happens, then I'm doing myself a

41:12

disservice because I ought to learn new things while I'm

41:14

writing. And I think the biggest

41:16

thing that this book changed about me is it made

41:19

me much more comfortable sharing my own stories. I've

41:22

been accused of using data

41:25

as a crutch and I'm like, it's

41:27

not a crutch, it's literally how I think. Like

41:30

ask me any question and my first instinct is to

41:32

cite a study, like that's how I learn. And

41:34

some of my friends did not like that

41:36

particular behavior and called me Mr. Facts growing

41:39

up. Luckily,

41:41

I had one friend who's here tonight.

41:44

Thank you, Khan, because Khan decided

41:46

that it didn't matter that I made him

41:49

uncool and he hung out with me

41:51

anyway. I think that I've shied

41:53

away from telling my stories, one, because it

41:55

feels self-centered, and two, because

41:57

it feels idiosyncratic. And while writing this book,

42:00

book, I realized hidden

42:02

potential is something I've lived over and over again.

42:04

I lived it when I wasn't naturally talented as

42:06

a diver and got way better than I expected.

42:08

I lived it when I

42:10

failed my college writing exam and

42:14

here I am as an author and it was definitely how

42:16

I felt as a public speaker and we're doing this and

42:18

I thought I can't keep distance

42:20

from this topic but more importantly if there's something

42:22

I've learned from something I've lived why would

42:24

I not share that? So that was the big change. I

42:27

love that you added your own stories in

42:30

there from what I've seen so far. They

42:32

add a lot of color to it. No,

42:34

they really do and I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah.

42:40

Okay, can you tell me something else? I

42:45

think it might be time to go to audience

42:47

questions. There are a lot of questions. Okay,

42:52

Liz. The same kinds of

42:54

people seem to keep getting installed in

42:57

leadership positions. What wisdom do you have

42:59

for mid-level professionals whose senior

43:01

leadership is stuck in that ball?

43:05

Wow. Way to bring it. Yeah. All

43:10

right, so Liz wants to know how we can diversify

43:13

leadership beyond people

43:15

who are selfish,

43:17

Machiavellian, narcissistic,

43:20

psychopathic, male and

43:23

white. Which

43:28

I've been told is redundant

43:31

but I don't

43:34

know. Oh

43:36

look, I think we've got to stop

43:39

confusing confidence for competence is the easy

43:41

answer. Stop it. Stop

43:44

falling for the superficial charm of

43:46

narcissists. They don't actually know what

43:48

they're talking about. Stop

43:50

assuming that the person who talks the most

43:52

is the most capable. That's called the babble

43:55

effect and it's a real thing.

43:57

That's usually the person who's most insecure,

43:59

not the person who's best suited to guide

44:01

the group. Let's look at whether people make those

44:03

around them better, whether they're more interested in making

44:05

the room smarter than being the smartest person in

44:08

the room. What else do people

44:10

want to know? Wow,

44:18

okay. Wait, was that white lotus? Yes.

44:23

We're all trying to find out what you're watching

44:25

is really what's happening here. For

44:28

someone who is six months into a startup,

44:30

Kevin wants to know, what is your

44:32

best advice regarding overcoming

44:34

perfection to get in the

44:36

way of progress? Oh,

44:39

yeah. So, Kevin, people always say like

44:41

the perfect is the enemy of the

44:43

good. That's not helpful because they still want you

44:45

to ship something that's better than good. I think one

44:47

of the lessons I took away from diving was I

44:49

needed to sit down with my coach and agree on

44:52

what's an acceptable score for every dive. So,

44:54

you're doing a basic front-dive pike. We're aiming for sevens.

44:56

And as soon as I hit a seven, we agree.

44:58

It's time to move on as opposed

45:00

to me asking, can I do 30 more of them because

45:02

I didn't point my left pinky toe on the entry, which

45:06

was an actual conversation once.

45:09

For, you know, a more complicated dive

45:12

like when I was learning reverse two

45:14

and a half, like target was forced.

45:16

We wanted to be not totally deficient. I remember

45:19

like shaking on a three-meter springboard having to

45:21

do a full twisting front two and a

45:23

half where you do two flips, 360 turn,

45:25

and then it died. And just

45:28

freaked out out of my mind. And Eric

45:30

says, our target is a 0.5

45:32

for this dive. If you're

45:36

if your head or your hands touch before your feet

45:38

and it's a legal dive, we're gonna count it. And

45:41

I don't think we have this conversation in startups. I don't

45:43

think we have this conversation in our jobs, but we should.

45:45

I'm aiming for a nine when I write a book because

45:48

hopefully a lot of people are gonna read it and I'm gonna

45:50

pour multiple years of my work life into it. And I want

45:52

it to be something I'm proud of. And

45:54

I don't want to waste other people's time. Social media

45:56

posts target is six and a half, which

45:59

is where I'm I put the line this far

46:01

above being canceled. Like,

46:04

I don't care if I get everything right on

46:06

social media, I don't mind if I learn something

46:08

and somebody tells me that I screwed something up

46:10

and I think that's a conversation to have. Like,

46:13

when do we need a four, when do we need a six

46:15

and a half, when do we need an eight? And let's calibrate

46:17

what does that look like for each of the things we're doing.

46:20

Very good advice, yeah. Hm. Do

46:25

you have wisdom for one who

46:27

mentors younger members of a team?

46:30

Okay, so let's do a quick comment on how to

46:32

give criticism and then how to receive it. On

46:35

the receiving side, my favorite lesson comes from

46:38

Sheila Heen. She calls it

46:40

the second score. And the

46:42

idea is that when somebody gives you a

46:44

piece of constructive criticism or advice, what

46:47

most of us do is we try to convince them if we don't

46:49

like it that they were wrong. And so

46:51

if somebody gives you a D minus and you become

46:53

the world's most dedicated grade grubber and

46:55

you're like, let me prove to you, I actually

46:57

deserve an A minus. And

47:00

the problem is they've already determined the score.

47:02

They can't, there's nothing you can say that

47:04

will change their mind because the past has

47:06

already happened. The best thing you

47:08

can do, according to Sheila, is you can

47:10

give yourself a second score, which is

47:12

I want to get an A plus for how well I took the

47:14

D minus. I

47:17

think about this every day. Every single

47:19

time I make the mistake of reading

47:21

Instagram comments. Do you read

47:23

yours, by the way? I'm so careful

47:25

about what I take in. Like

47:27

I read nothing where

47:29

I will accidentally see my face or

47:33

my name or anyone who is

47:35

related to me in print in

47:38

the computer phone. That

47:40

seems like a very healthy attitude. I have

47:42

not adopted that. Every once in

47:44

a while I go into the comments and end up reading all

47:46

of them. I've been called a logic

47:48

bully. My

47:50

wife had to explain to me that was not a compliment. I

47:53

was like, good, I want to hammer

47:55

you with

47:58

evidence and facts until you... you realize you

48:00

were incorrect. All

48:03

right, every once in a while it's fun to smack down

48:05

someone with an ignorant, overconfident

48:07

opinion. But most

48:09

of the time what I need to do is I

48:11

need to convince them that I'm willing to learn, and

48:13

so let me ask a question about, oh, that's really

48:15

interesting, what led you to that view? And I think

48:17

trying to ace the second score and say I want

48:19

to get an A plus for how I took the

48:22

D minus is something I would encourage anyone to try

48:24

if you haven't already. On

48:26

the giving, constructive criticism

48:28

side, my favorite experiment shows

48:30

that you can say 19 words and

48:32

people become dramatically more receptive to

48:35

what you're about to deliver. You ready? OK.

48:37

OK, don't count them, Jen, because I

48:39

might say 18. But the

48:42

words are roughly, I'm giving you these comments because

48:44

I have very high expectations, and I'm

48:46

confident you can reach them. Oh,

48:49

God, that's so good. It

48:53

changes the word on that. It changes the equation.

48:55

Now I'm not attacking you. Very high

48:58

expectation. And I'm confident you can reach

49:00

them. So here's the thing.

49:02

I'm not attacking you. I'm not judging you. I'm here to coach

49:04

you. I'm trying to help. So I

49:06

taught this a few years ago to my undergrads

49:08

at Wharton. And then about three

49:10

weeks later, I give out these mid course feedback forms. And

49:13

three different students wrote at the top,

49:15

I'm giving you these comments because I

49:17

have very high expectations. No, you don't

49:20

have to say the words verbatim. The

49:22

point is to communicate that I believe

49:24

in your potential, and I care about

49:26

your success and well-being. You

49:29

establish that up front, and all of a sudden,

49:31

you have a relationship as opposed to an attack

49:35

that you need to defend against. Do

49:37

you believe in the compliment

49:39

sandwich? So

49:42

I try not to believe in things. I

49:45

try to look at what does the best evidence tell

49:47

us and then form an opinion accordingly. And I think

49:49

here, see, this is the logic bullying, right? Yeah. I'm

49:51

doing it right now. Yeah, I'm not

49:53

a proponent. I'm just asking. Yeah.

49:57

I think that's a fair question. And I think. My

50:00

read of the evidence is that the compliment sandwich

50:02

does not taste as good as it looks. People

50:04

are like, ah, I gotta say something really unpleasant,

50:06

so I have to take the meat of the

50:08

criticism I want to give you and hide

50:11

it between two slices of bread that are the compliment.

50:13

First problem is a lot

50:16

of people are just waiting for the other shoe to drop. They're

50:18

like, wait, compliment? Are you just buttering me

50:21

up? So I take your criticism better, and

50:23

they see right through it. Number

50:25

two, people who are

50:27

narcissistic actually have the opposite response,

50:29

which is primacy and recency effects

50:31

dominate. So you

50:34

pay attention to the first thing and the last thing,

50:36

and you forget the meat of the sandwich! And

50:39

you come away from the meeting skewing you

50:41

thinking, like Billy

50:43

Madison, I am the smartest person alive. That

50:48

explains a lot. Yeah, okay. No, I don't like it.

50:50

Okay, good. I will now put it on your menu.

50:53

Well, you know what? We're kind of

50:55

coming to the end here. So can

50:58

I just say, what a total pleasure

51:00

and what an awesome way to get

51:02

to know you. And I'm so grateful

51:04

for this. I really, I don't know

51:06

why you reached out to me. I

51:08

don't actually... It's

51:10

very rare for me to leave home

51:12

on a school night, I can't believe,

51:14

that I did, but I love that

51:17

you asked. I can't get away from your kids. I

51:19

feel even guiltier now. They're thrilled. They're thrilled out of

51:21

their minds. Why

51:24

does it sound like a threat when you say it? Well,

51:27

because it kind of is. But yeah,

51:30

they're delighted, truly. And

51:33

so am I. And so thank you. Thank

51:36

you for reaching out. No, thank you. When I

51:39

woke up this morning and realized we needed a

51:41

rain, who is not rain, to

51:44

take his place, I thought,

51:46

who's the person that sees the potential in

51:48

every single person she meets? And that was

51:50

you. Every single time I've had

51:53

any interaction with you, you have looked for the

51:55

best in everyone. And I

51:57

think that's such a gift that you give to people. And

51:59

I wanted this... audience to get to benefit from it.

52:02

Jen, this is just beyond generous of you

52:04

to do. And I cannot thank

52:06

you enough, and I really will be trying

52:08

to pay it back and forward for

52:11

the next few decades. Thank

52:14

you. Thank you. Thank you. Our

52:20

team includes Daphne Chen,

52:22

Constanzo Gallardo, Grace Rubinstein,

52:24

Daniela Balorazo, Banban Cheng,

52:26

Michelle Quintz, Alejandro Salazar,

52:28

and Roxanne Heylash. Our

52:31

fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our show is mixed

52:33

by Ben Shaino, original music by

52:35

Hans-Delceux and Alison Litton-Zone. Our

52:38

live show was hosted and produced by

52:40

LiveTalks.Center.