0:01

Ted Audio Collective. Thanks

0:07

to Staples for sponsoring this episode. Hey,

0:13

everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking,

0:15

my podcast on the science of what makes

0:18

us tick. I'm an organizational

0:20

psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the

0:22

minds of fascinating people to explore new

0:24

thoughts and new ways of thinking. My

0:27

guests today are Susan Magsimin and Ivy

0:30

Ross, authors of the New

0:32

York Times bestseller, Your Brain on Art.

0:35

Ivy is vice president of hardware design at Google.

0:38

She's also an accomplished jewelry designer. Her

0:41

work is featured at museums around the world, including

0:43

the Smithsonian. Susan

0:46

is the executive director of the International

0:48

Arts Plus Mind Lab at Johns Hopkins

0:50

University, where she brings together

0:52

scientists and artists to grow the emerging

0:54

field of neuro aesthetics. Our

0:57

conversation is about the cognitive effects of art

0:59

and some creative ways of opening our minds.

1:12

It's not every day I get to

1:14

talk with a neuro aesthetics expert and

1:17

a star jewelry designer turned

1:19

Google hardware specialist. Really? You

1:22

don't talk to those people every day? I mean,

1:24

to be honest, Susan, I didn't even know those

1:26

categories of people existed. It's good. We're still creating

1:28

new worlds. So I

1:30

have so many questions for both of you and

1:32

a ton to learn in this conversation. But let

1:35

me begin by asking, how did you get

1:37

interested in the neuroscience of

1:39

art? So maybe I'll

1:41

start. You know, I've always been

1:44

really moved by nature. Nature

1:46

has been kind of a through line for

1:48

me my whole life. And I think feeling

1:51

sun on my face and the smell of

1:53

flowers and I felt most alive

1:55

there. But when I am a twin,

1:57

and when I was 12 years old,

2:00

My sister had a very serious

2:02

farming accident and almost lost her

2:04

leg. And if you know

2:06

anything about twins, you know that we understand

2:08

each other without words, we can send messages

2:10

to each other. We

2:13

just read each other and we're

2:15

born in relationship. And so

2:17

when that happened, my sister really shut down. Now

2:20

we know the BRCA region of her brain shut

2:22

down. She wasn't able to find words for

2:24

what was happening to her. And

2:27

I really felt very disconnected to the

2:29

person that I was closest to. And

2:32

so my mom suggested that she

2:34

start drawing to just get

2:36

stuff out. My mom's a poet, not a

2:38

professional poet, but was always writing poetry and

2:41

that was really helpful for her. But

2:43

my sister started to draw these things that there

2:45

were no words for. And

2:48

they were symbols and metaphors and they became

2:50

ways for her to access what she was

2:52

feeling. But it was also ways for me

2:54

to know what she was feeling. As

2:57

a very young age, I realized that

2:59

there's lots of ways to share ourselves

3:01

besides yapping and talking and trying

3:03

to find the right words. And

3:06

that really, really changed my life and changed

3:08

how I started to understand the world around

3:11

me. Amazing. And Ivy?

3:14

Yeah. And I

3:16

started as an artist and was

3:18

always a little creative creature in

3:20

my bedroom making things as

3:22

a way of expressing myself. And then

3:25

as I entered the corporate design world

3:27

and most recently, instead

3:29

of talking to the team

3:32

about design thinking, started

3:34

talking about design feelings. Let's talk

3:36

about how objects and

3:38

things feel because I

3:40

think we've been optimizing for productivity

3:42

and efficiency since the Industrial Revolution

3:44

and pushed some of the sensorial

3:48

nature of ourselves aside.

3:50

And then I could just feel that

3:52

we are craving that. And so even

3:55

in how we design

3:57

our hardware at Google, it's...

4:00

What textures can we add

4:02

to a product so it's not just

4:04

one surface? I too did not know

4:06

of this word called neuroaesthetics. I

4:09

was just intuitively understanding

4:12

it until Susan reached

4:14

out on LinkedIn

4:16

and said she was

4:19

with the Arts and Mind Lab and I

4:21

was like, what is that? Two of my

4:23

favorite subjects together because I studied

4:25

Jungian Psychology and I was an artist and

4:27

it's like wow, in one place. I

4:30

swiped right and what was supposed to

4:33

be a 30-minute conversation led to a

4:35

three-hour conversation that led to

4:37

a salon in my home between artists and

4:39

scientists which led to this book. Wow,

4:43

that's quite a connection. Well, I have

4:45

to say, I think this book is

4:48

maybe the best case I've ever read for putting an A

4:50

in STEM. I came away from

4:52

the book thinking science,

4:54

technology, engineering and math are incomplete

4:57

without the arts. And

4:59

I imagine I'm preaching to the choir on that one.

5:02

Well, thank you for saying that because that

5:04

is the greatest gift. We just spoke at

5:06

a women in data science conference and

5:08

we said to the woman organizing it,

5:10

why do you want us to be

5:12

the keynote speaker? And she said because

5:14

you wouldn't believe this Ivy but people

5:16

who are studying computer science and data

5:18

science, they have dropped doing

5:21

art or playing their guitar, kind of

5:24

what their soul was happy doing because

5:27

they're led to believe like oh my

5:29

God, we have to focus on just

5:31

computer science or just understanding data. And

5:33

it's quite opposite because to your point,

5:35

we all have to be whole people

5:38

and we need the other side. And the

5:41

scary thing is also people who are

5:43

coding and getting into this field to

5:45

not have the balance of the arts,

5:48

we're going to be in trouble, not only for

5:50

their own health and wellness because we now know

5:52

what it does to our brain and body but

5:55

for the sake of society.

5:57

It's how we are physiologically,

5:59

psychologically wired. you can't learn well

6:01

without these kinds of stimuli. You can't

6:03

find, you can't be creative. We've left

6:05

so much of our human capacity on

6:08

the table because we've sort of stripped

6:10

this out in all these different areas

6:12

of our lives. And I

6:14

think, you know, it's data scientists, but

6:16

it's also people that are going into

6:18

different fields, all fields that are starting

6:20

to understand that this makes them more

6:24

collaborative, more creative, more connected. And

6:26

I think that we're starting to

6:28

see a shift back towards the

6:31

beginning, barely at the beginning of

6:33

understanding the profound neurobiological impacts

6:35

of these things that we've just

6:38

kind of been told aren't as

6:40

essential. Or people stopped making

6:42

art because they felt they weren't good

6:44

at it, quote unquote, and really to

6:46

learn that it's not about being proficient

6:49

at something, it's the act of doing

6:51

it that changes the brain and

6:53

body. So so many people have written us

6:55

and said, thank you for giving me permission

6:58

to make art again. You mentioned creativity

7:00

as one of the benefits of engaging with

7:02

the arts. And I

7:04

immediately started thinking about this root

7:06

Bernstein et al finding about what

7:09

differentiates Nobel prize winning scientists from

7:11

their peers. And

7:13

there's a stunning set of patterns

7:15

around just the likelihood of having

7:17

artistic hobbies. Nobel prize winners

7:20

are twice as likely to play a musical

7:22

instrument as their peers. They're seven

7:24

times as likely to draw or paint, 12 times

7:27

as likely to write fiction or poetry,

7:30

and get this 22 times as likely

7:32

to perform as actors, dancers, or

7:35

yes, magicians. As

7:37

a former magician, I was tremendously excited by

7:39

that last finding. But I love that. My

7:41

first instinct as a psychologist is to say

7:44

correlation is not causation. This

7:46

is probably just a signal of a

7:48

creative personality and the kinds of people

7:51

who have breakthrough scientific insights are also

7:53

drawn to expressing themselves creatively and being

7:55

curious about the arts. I

7:58

think your work suggests. another

8:00

factor at play here, which is there may

8:03

actually be at least a small

8:05

causal effect of engagement in the arts on

8:07

your scientific creativity. Talk to me about that.

8:09

That's really interesting. Well, you know, Jonah

8:11

Salk, when he

8:14

was really struggling to work

8:16

on the polio vaccine, you know, he

8:18

was working like in a basement in

8:20

New Jersey and it was not the

8:22

greatest environment. He went to Umbria and

8:24

walked the cloister and really believed

8:27

that it was that space and

8:29

that aesthetic experience that allowing his

8:31

brain to go to kind of

8:33

a resting state that

8:35

really allowed him to be able to come

8:37

back and have that aha moment. And we've

8:40

seen that, you know, over and over again

8:42

where there's this need for

8:44

a different

8:46

way of knowing and moving into

8:48

a flow state, moving into a

8:51

timeless liminal space, which is where

8:53

you go when you're really engaged in some

8:55

kind of art experience. And as Ivy

8:57

said, whether you're the maker or the beholder,

8:59

that's really sort of an incredible thing. And

9:01

so, you know, I think we often, too,

9:03

think that researchers are so

9:06

logical and so cognitive, but researchers

9:08

and scientists, you know, some of

9:11

these Nobel Prize winners in different

9:13

categories are incredibly creative, right? That's

9:16

how they get to their solutions. That's how they

9:18

get to their problem-solving and trying trial and error,

9:20

seeing what works and doesn't work. And I think

9:23

we sort of categorized

9:26

artists as the creative and

9:28

then everybody else isn't.

9:30

And so I think we've got to change

9:32

that paradigm, too, because it doesn't hold

9:34

when you really start to untangle it. Art

9:38

experiences tend to

9:40

be salient experiences that

9:43

literally make new synapses in the brain.

9:46

So I think being engaged in

9:48

the arts not only gets

9:51

you more in touch with yourself and

9:54

self-expression, but it's also

9:56

almost exercising that muscle of firing

9:58

these new synapses. because

10:01

they're new experiences, which is

10:04

helpful when you're trying to create breakthrough

10:08

moments. And I

10:10

think that's where experiential learning is

10:12

so important too. Like you can't

10:14

have enough wonderful experiences that are

10:16

really building those strong neural pathways.

10:20

I love the phrase, your brain on art. I guess

10:23

it reminded me of watching those your brain

10:25

on drugs commercials as a kid. And this

10:27

is a positive alternative. What happens to

10:29

my brain on art? So it's

10:31

a lot of neurons that you

10:33

come into this world with. And

10:35

the only way that you really

10:37

create those synaptic connections and strong

10:39

neural pathways is through your sensory

10:42

systems, right? So how you bring

10:44

the world in. It turns out

10:46

that the most salient experiences are

10:48

these highly aesthetic experiences and arts

10:50

fall into that category. Now sometimes

10:52

salient experiences can be traumatic too,

10:54

right? So it's not

10:56

all salient experiences are positive

10:58

and not all art experiences

11:00

necessarily are positive, but they are

11:02

the ones that resonate and build

11:04

these synaptic connections that create, that

11:06

connect the neurons. And we're starting

11:09

to see those neural pathways are

11:11

the things that connect all the

11:13

different parts of the brain. And

11:15

so when you're thinking about structure

11:17

and function, there's neural pathways that

11:19

are being built. But you're also

11:21

activating other physiological systems like

11:23

the circulatory system, the

11:26

respiratory system, the endocrine and

11:28

muscular systems. And so what's

11:30

amazing about these art experiences

11:33

is they have a

11:35

neurobiological, physiological impact and

11:38

it's simultaneous. So where you

11:40

know certain drugs might activate

11:43

a particular neurotransmitter. Different arts

11:45

experiences might be igniting the

11:47

reward system. So it's igniting

11:49

things like dopamine or

11:51

serotonin or oxytocin. But it

11:53

may also at the same time

11:55

be activating something like cortisol and

11:57

lower in cortisol. So the complete

14:00

to apply some of the scientific methods

14:02

that are helping to understand why that

14:04

works, you kind of go,

14:06

oh my God, the things that, you know,

14:09

we were told not to do, that were

14:11

a waste of time or that seemed irrelevant,

14:13

turn out to be incredibly important, like humming

14:15

and doodling and singing in the shower. This

14:18

tuning fork piece is interesting to me because

14:21

you could say, oh, well, it's a placebo effect. What

14:23

we do know is that sound

14:25

is vibration and we are so

14:28

wired for resonance. You

14:30

know, we're 60% water. So

14:32

it makes so much sense. And I think that's

14:34

what a lot of people also have resonated

14:37

with the book is that these

14:39

are things that we've intuitively felt

14:41

and new worked. But now

14:43

we're really being able to add another layer of

14:46

knowing to this work where you go, ah, I

14:48

can understand why I could use this as a

14:50

tool in my pocket to help with something that

14:53

has felt intractable and that doesn't require

14:55

different kinds of other interventions, like whether

14:58

that's pharmacological or surgeries. I mean, it's

15:00

kind of a yes and. And so

15:02

I think that's also really one of

15:04

the things the book is lifting up.

15:07

We realized when did even the word

15:09

art come into play? Because

15:12

before we had the word, it

15:14

was the way we lived. We sang,

15:16

we danced, we told stories, we did

15:18

graphics in caves. We didn't have to

15:21

call it art. It was the way

15:23

we expressed ourselves. And so there's

15:25

something there. I do believe we're at a time where we

15:27

have to go back a little to move forward. This

15:30

goes to the question of does the media matter?

15:32

What are the implications of different types of art?

15:36

So maybe to lead into this, one of

15:38

my favorite findings for personality psychology is that

15:40

if you're interested in markers of

15:43

openness to new experiences and curiosity,

15:45

one of the clearest ones across

15:47

cultures is having aesthetic chills. The

15:50

shivers on your spine are goosebumps. And

15:52

some people get them when listening to

15:55

beautiful music or when engaging with poetry

15:57

or when going to a museum. I

16:01

get them mostly when looking

16:03

at nature or sometimes outer

16:05

space or extraordinary architecture, but

16:08

more often from what I think is a

16:10

brilliant idea. I'm like, okay,

16:12

wait a minute. So these

16:15

experiences are not all created equal, even

16:17

though physiologically we might all look the

16:19

same when we have these aesthetic chills.

16:21

So I wondered how

16:24

you think about that and how I

16:26

know what kind of artistic engagement is

16:28

relevant to me. Anjan Chatterjee,

16:31

who is at the University of Pennsylvania,

16:34

started to look at some of this

16:36

with his aesthetic triad, the theoretical model

16:38

that kind of says, why is my

16:40

perch uniquely my perch? And

16:42

he combined kind of three circles in

16:45

a Venn diagram with that peak experience

16:47

at the middle, which as you're describing

16:49

it, I'm hearing all. And it's kind

16:51

of a combination of things that you

16:54

know, so where you come from and

16:56

what you've experienced, your sensorial responses to

16:58

those, and they can be very

17:01

different, right? Like you might

17:03

have better hearing acuity or better visual acuity, where

17:05

I might have more tactile acuity.

17:08

We all have sort of a honing

17:10

of our physiology that's uniquely ours,

17:12

as is our cultural backgrounds and

17:14

our likes of experiences. And

17:17

then the third is like, what matters to

17:19

you? What's important to you? And

17:21

how do you sort of value that in

17:23

terms of importance? And at the center of

17:25

those is this sort of peak experience. And

17:28

so I think that the arts and

17:30

aesthetics probably are one of the most

17:32

personalized medicines we can have because it

17:35

really does reflect us individually. And I

17:37

love that. And I'll just give one

17:39

other example that I think illustrates this.

17:41

There's so many great anecdotal

17:44

reports around autobiographical music

17:46

and dementia or Alzheimer's, where people just

17:49

light up and they wake up. This

17:51

is much of an awakening for that

17:53

time. But it's

17:55

different music based on where you come from,

17:57

what you know, what you've experienced.

18:00

And I have to say, Adam,

18:02

I absolutely get those chills. I've

18:04

made business decisions based on those

18:06

chills. So I use it

18:08

as my guiding light. I know exactly what

18:10

you mean. But the beauty of this is

18:13

that when we say art, it's

18:15

not just visual art. It's

18:17

architecture as well as all of these

18:20

art modalities, singing, dancing,

18:22

painting, sculpting. It's

18:24

really about what makes you more

18:26

connected to yourself and allows you

18:28

to self-express. And there are art

18:30

forms that are being used for

18:33

specific things. So the form may

18:35

be like singing for Alzheimer's as

18:37

an example, but it's the contextual

18:39

cultural element that differentiates

18:41

or dancing in Parkinson's, right? We

18:43

know that dancing in Parkinson's increases

18:46

gait and cognition and mood and

18:48

even sleep. So there are art

18:51

forms that are being used for specific

18:53

things. What Ivy's also talking about, though,

18:55

is how you use art as practice,

18:58

how you use it in your daily

19:00

life for flourishing, for creating a sense

19:02

of ease or comfort or relaxing. And

19:04

so I think what's so amazing about

19:07

this work to me is that it's

19:09

ubiquitous. It really does fit in every part

19:12

of our life if we allow for that.

19:14

And I just love that you said curiosity

19:16

because I think that is one

19:18

of the drivers in this work

19:20

is being curious and being willing

19:22

to play around and explore kind

19:25

of your sensory systems and to be a

19:27

maker and a beholder. That's what Ivy and

19:29

I call the aesthetic mindset. And so being

19:32

open to that is really important. And

19:34

we learned even from Sharon Salzberg that

19:36

art is the highest form of meditation.

19:39

I'm really drawn to the idea that nature

19:41

has a universal effect, but art has a

19:44

much more particular and idiosyncratic one. And

19:46

you're making me feel like it's not entirely

19:48

a terrible thing that I walk

19:51

into a museum and I look at

19:53

a painting and I think it's amazing

19:55

that you could create that, but I don't know

19:57

why you wanted to. And I

19:59

feel nothing looking at this. Why am I

20:01

cooped up in a room when I could

20:04

be looking at the actual landscape

20:06

or mountain or ocean that you painted? It

20:08

doesn't do anything for me. The average

20:10

amount of time that someone looks at a piece of art

20:13

in a museum is seconds. So

20:15

if you spend time really

20:17

understanding how it makes you feel,

20:19

and I think it's

20:21

about personal growth but also about understanding

20:24

the other, so empathy and perspective taking,

20:26

and how that can help us be

20:28

more whole human beings and this idea

20:31

of meaning making. I think

20:33

that right now the world is really

20:35

crazy and maybe crazier than ever. And how

20:37

do you make sense? How do you make

20:39

meaning? How do you get a respite? And

20:42

that's where I think beholding can

20:44

be also helpful as well as

20:46

making. And you know, nature is

20:48

the most neuroaesthetic place you could

20:50

be because it alivens the senses.

20:52

It has shape, texture,

20:55

temperature, sound. It encompasses all of

20:58

your sensory systems,

21:01

which as E.O. Wilson says,

21:04

we have grown up there. And so

21:06

it's no wonder that these systems are

21:08

so important for us to feel healthy

21:10

and alive. And nature is a great

21:12

place to feel that. There's

21:15

a Grady and Lieberman paper that

21:17

looks at what happens

21:19

to paintings that artists make

21:21

in the year after losing a relative or a

21:23

close friend. And not

21:26

only do they fail to find evidence for a

21:28

benefit of being a tortured artist, they find a

21:30

cost. I think on average the paintings they do

21:32

in the first year, this is French and American

21:35

artists, the paintings they do in the first year

21:37

after losing someone close to them sell for about

21:40

50% less. Now, we

21:42

don't know whether people find the topics sad

21:45

or whether the grief actually constrained their creativity.

21:47

But that does not track with the idea

21:49

that artists have To

21:52

suffer from mental health challenges in order to be creative. I

21:54

Do think there's some. And

22:00

how it's being a potential acceptance

22:02

that I'm that there is a

22:05

possibility that in their most impressive

22:07

periods sometimes the the poignancy of

22:09

their poetry increased. That's. Interesting

22:11

because professional artists that are making

22:14

their living at arts there is

22:16

a financial value that's put on

22:18

that work rate. Which isn't to

22:20

say that it's not incredibly valuable

22:22

to the artist to make that

22:25

work, but whether it's gonna sell,

22:27

whether it seemed as commercially viable

22:29

or aesthetically pleasing, whatever that means

22:31

rights is a different question. Yet

22:34

you look at some be like,

22:36

then go who suffered mightily and

22:38

and he didn't sell painting when

22:40

he. Was alive. You know if people

22:42

didn't get it and it will and

22:45

then his You know his brother inherited

22:47

the work and and his brother died

22:49

and the sister in law was the

22:51

one that went to gallery owner and

22:53

said this work moves me I get

22:55

this, I feel these emotions and when

22:57

when goes Work finally came out and

22:59

it was. Touching. That. Ceilings.

23:02

People really responded to a but it

23:05

took a long time for that to

23:07

cling to happen and I think it

23:09

can be very arbitrary. You know what?

23:11

what becomes popular? You.

23:16

Did not show up on the first day of school and other. A

23:18

trapper keeper. There's. An

23:20

emotional connection. People have a pen

23:22

that they like, they have a

23:24

you know, have had that they

23:26

choose. Office supplies seemed kind of

23:28

turn key or commoditized, but the

23:30

reality is people actually do care.

23:33

Maybe it starts right when you start with school

23:35

supplies and making sure you have those re items,

23:37

what you choose to agree with how you choose

23:40

to take notes. The whole thing is. Very first.

23:42

Meet. Amy Becker. She leads the

23:44

private brand for Staples. in

23:47

my role i am actually responsible for

23:49

developing an bring to market products that

23:51

are under our brand we have a

23:54

very keen focus on innovation so bringing

23:56

products to market that are new and

23:58

different and really make the way of

24:00

work easier. Staples isn't just

24:02

for back to school shopping. A big part of

24:05

their model is providing products for other companies. Although

24:07

our physical retail stores are important and

24:09

they play that role for the consumer

24:12

every day, we are actually a huge

24:14

B2B organization delivering for businesses every day.

24:16

Whether it starts when you're going back

24:18

to school or when you start a

24:20

new job or when you're in your

24:22

job for 20 years, these are tools

24:24

that you need to be successful, to

24:26

be productive. And that's really the role

24:29

Staples plays now across, I would call

24:31

it business essentials, as opposed to just

24:33

office supplies or back to school

24:35

supplies. What makes these business

24:37

essentials successful is Staples' commitment to innovation.

24:39

From markers designed to not roll off

24:41

your desk to pens that won't smudge

24:44

if you're a lefty. Another product

24:46

that I've been excited about is

24:48

taking something that everybody's using every day

24:50

and making it better. So we actually

24:52

have a stapler that holds

24:55

an extra sleeve of Staples. It has

24:57

a staple remover attached to it. It

24:59

has different finishes for how the Staples

25:01

will finish on a document. A staple

25:03

is a staple, a paperclip's a paperclip.

25:06

But that doesn't mean they're not ripe for innovation. When

25:08

we think of innovation, we normally think of

25:10

radical leaps. The research shows

25:12

that a great deal of progress comes not

25:14

through major breakthroughs, but through more

25:17

minor incremental advances, like putting

25:19

wheels on a suitcase. We designed these

25:21

scissors. They're titanium coated. They stay sharp.

25:23

They don't rust. So I

25:25

put them through the dishwasher. Wait, you

25:27

put scissors in the dishwasher? I did. I

25:30

did. I put these scissors through the dishwasher. Did the

25:32

spoons come out all cut up? The

25:34

spoons survived. Forks not so

25:36

much. Staples is all about finding new

25:38

ways to improve on classic products. These

25:41

are not products that you're using, you

25:43

know, once a month or once a

25:45

year. They're, you know, once

25:47

an hour. I think sometimes we forget

25:49

that because you're that engaged

25:52

with this product on such

25:54

a fundamental level for

25:56

so many moments during your day that it

25:58

matters. That's, I think,

26:00

the key, right, is that we want to

26:02

make sure that we don't forget that the consumer

26:05

cares and that we

26:07

can't lose sight of the things that are

26:09

potential pain points that we could be making

26:11

better for them or improving for them in

26:13

their everyday life. Staple's

26:16

Business Advantage uses today's latest

26:18

innovations plus their team's experience

26:20

to make business easier for

26:22

you. Learn more and sign

26:24

up today at staplesbusinessadvantage.com. Staple's

26:27

Business Advantage, business is

26:29

human. So

26:33

I think it's time for a lightning round if you're up

26:35

for it. First question is, what is

26:37

the worst advice you've ever gotten? Don't

26:39

express yourself. Ditto. Touche.

26:44

What's a form of art that more of

26:46

us should engage with or even be aware

26:48

of? Dancing, dancing.

26:51

Favorite artist? Mary Oliver. Do

26:53

you have a favorite exhibit? There

26:55

was one called Ashes and Snow

26:58

by a photographer, Gregory Colbert,

27:00

years ago that was in a shipping container.

27:02

It was an incredible

27:04

immersive environment. It was sound, images.

27:08

I mean, it was the most

27:10

neurostatic experience and I think this was about

27:12

20 years ago in New York, but it

27:14

was called Ashes and Snow. I'm

27:16

going to say the Sagrada Familia because I was just there

27:19

and if you want to be in awe,

27:22

everybody's head was up. Is

27:24

that something you've rethought over the course of doing

27:26

all this work on art in the brain? I

27:29

think I've doubled down on this

27:31

idea of feeling. People talk

27:33

sometimes about six main feelings. We probably have more

27:35

like 30,000 feelings

27:38

is that the complexity of human

27:40

nature is so extraordinary

27:42

and to be open to

27:45

all of these feelings, which takes bravery,

27:47

right? And to be connected to others

27:49

who are also having these

27:51

feelings that maybe they don't express

27:54

or share, but to really think

27:56

about what self-expression is of

27:58

your true self. your truest sense,

28:00

your truest feelings, and what that

28:02

does for us in terms of connecting

28:05

us to each other. And I would

28:07

say it renewed my need

28:09

to play more. And what's the

28:11

question you have for me? What's your

28:13

favorite art form? Well, magic, clearly.

28:15

But after magic, it's probably poetry

28:18

and musical theater. I

28:21

would love to know, before

28:24

you read this book, did

28:26

you intuitively know how

28:29

important the arts were from

28:32

your other studies? I think I've felt

28:35

like the arts have gotten short shrift. And

28:37

I feel that way about the humanities, too, in

28:40

an increasingly technological world. I

28:43

hadn't thought hard about the neuroscience component,

28:45

and really unpacking the

28:48

physiology of why engaging with

28:50

art affects the way

28:52

we think, feel, and act. That

28:55

was a big takeaway for me of your book.

28:58

Can I ask you, what, if anything, are

29:01

you doing differently or seeing differently

29:03

because you now know that information?

29:07

One thing I started doing that I wasn't doing

29:09

before was playing color cue with our kids. It's

29:13

Sudoku, more or less. It feels

29:15

like there's a little bit of aesthetic engagement, but

29:17

it also appeals to, I guess, my

29:20

left brain tendency to want

29:22

to solve puzzles and use

29:24

logical reasoning to rule out

29:26

options. And it's been a lot

29:29

of fun. And what I've really loved about it is the way

29:31

that sometimes you just look at a

29:33

pattern and you immediately know what's

29:36

missing or what belongs. And

29:38

thinking it through won't get you there. That's

29:41

beautiful. I think you make a

29:43

compelling case that even 15 or 45 minutes

29:47

of art, not

29:49

even having to do it daily, but

29:51

monthly art experiences can have a whole

29:53

range of psychological benefits. What

29:55

should parents do with that knowledge, with their kids at

29:57

home? Home is a place to be.

30:00

where there's a lot of different states of

30:02

mind that are really important for kids. So

30:04

I think of food, for example, as

30:07

a way to really use an

30:09

aesthetic experience. Think about how you

30:11

prepare food, how you think about

30:14

a taste, you know, how you

30:16

come together in rituals and traditions

30:18

around food. Eating together creates

30:20

more collaboration. It makes people more generous.

30:22

It makes them more tolerant. How do

30:24

you start to help kids learn those

30:27

social skills that are so important and

30:29

using something like food and

30:31

mealtime in those rituals I think is really important.

30:34

I think tapping into the parasympathetic nervous

30:36

system with young people is really important.

30:38

So helping them understand that getting in

30:41

the shower, taking a bath is really

30:43

lowering their cortisol. Helping them regulate their

30:45

emotions is super important for young kids

30:48

and showing them that light sources,

30:50

lowering light sources, finding the right light

30:52

sources, certain scents. And

30:54

you don't have to preach it to kids. One of my kids

30:56

always says to me, you know, mom, this is not a teaching

30:58

moment. But you can model it,

31:00

right? You can do it. And I think if

31:02

you start to set those things up for kids,

31:05

it makes a really big difference about

31:07

how they start to take on those

31:09

activities as part of their rituals and

31:11

their practices. And I would say

31:14

expose them to as many

31:16

different kinds of art

31:18

modalities, crayons, clay, collage.

31:20

I know something my dad did is

31:22

he paid attention to what got my

31:25

attention. And then the next day,

31:27

I had more of that on my doorstep in

31:29

my room because this idea about

31:32

giving kids a selection

31:34

of ways to make and

31:36

express themselves. And then

31:38

when you find what they connect with, because

31:41

those little souls, they know exactly who they

31:43

are. I think as they get older, we

31:46

do things to them that strips them of

31:48

that. But while they know who

31:50

they are, to amplify that

31:52

at all costs so that they

31:55

stay true to that would be my

31:57

advice. school.

32:00

It seems like art is the

32:02

first thing to go when there's a budget

32:05

cut or a financial crisis.

32:07

And I think that leaves a lot of teachers scrambling

32:10

to try to figure out how do we fill in

32:12

those gaps. Yeah, in fact, we just spoke at the

32:14

Getty Museum to 500 California school

32:16

superintendents because California is putting

32:19

money into getting one art teacher

32:22

into every school. And what

32:24

we begged them to do is not

32:26

just check the box to get an

32:29

art teacher, but use that mindset of

32:31

art throughout the entire program. Because art

32:34

is about embodying things. And so

32:36

whether it's science or math, to

32:39

use art as a way

32:41

to embody ideas is what

32:43

I think we should be doing in our

32:45

school system. Also not

32:47

slapping kids' hands for doodling, because actually

32:49

a fun fact I found out through

32:51

doing this book with Susan is that

32:54

when you are doodling, you're actually

32:56

remembering what you're listening to much

32:59

better. And also, I think

33:01

the spaces that schools create make

33:03

a huge difference. These ideas around

33:05

enriched environments and making sure that

33:07

the spaces really are enriched. They're

33:09

novel. They have surprise. They change.

33:11

And I think helping educators feel more

33:14

comfortable with that. So it's not the

33:16

art teacher. It's not enrichment. But it's

33:18

really integrated into all of these different

33:21

spaces. And if you buy this argument

33:23

that we're making, which is that we're

33:25

wired for art and it's how we

33:28

learn and grow and change, kids

33:31

will learn better. And that's really what

33:33

you want. You want them to be

33:35

great learners and to have that neuroplasticity

33:37

and to have resiliency, to have better

33:40

SEL, you know, social emotional skills. And

33:43

that happens through these art experiences.

33:46

And also to help them understand the world

33:48

is full of possibilities, because right now that's

33:50

what we need. We need people to be

33:52

imaginative and understand

33:54

possibilities. Well

33:56

I have to say, I'm pretty

33:59

encouraged. by one of these

34:01

revelations in particular as a lifelong doodler.

34:03

Oh really? Great. I think

34:05

this is relevant at work, not just at school.

34:08

Oh yeah. I can't tell you how many times I've been sitting

34:10

in a meeting and started

34:12

drawing cubes or faces and then

34:15

I feel like I have to cover the paper

34:17

because somebody is going to think that I'm distracted

34:19

or not paying attention. No, this is how I

34:21

focus. Exactly. Exactly.

34:24

It's amazing once you understand how the brain works.

34:27

And we don't learn that, right? We don't

34:29

learn sensory literacy. We don't learn brain literacy.

34:32

We don't know it as kids. We don't

34:34

know it as adults. And so when you

34:36

do, you make better decisions. And there's also

34:38

some great epidemiology work that talks

34:41

about how when youth make art and

34:43

they make it on a consistent

34:45

basis, they actually stay in school longer,

34:47

they do better in school, and they

34:50

actually make better decisions across their lives.

34:53

One other thing I didn't expect from reading

34:55

your book was it actually gave me a

34:57

new lens on podcasting. I

34:59

never thought about it as an aesthetic experience

35:01

for people. I guess I never really thought

35:03

about sound as an aesthetic medium, but one

35:05

of the things I've learned from our producers

35:08

over the years is that some of

35:10

the work they do is making audio art. And

35:12

I think that's what a great

35:14

podcast often does. So thank

35:17

you for that. Absolutely. Dialing

35:19

in and tuning in is an art

35:21

form in terms of the

35:23

depth of the sound, the range of

35:25

sound. Absolutely. And I think we're not

35:28

conscious of it, but you can tell

35:30

the good ones between the person's voice

35:32

and the technical work. Also,

35:35

besides the sound, which I think is

35:37

a really beautiful thing, the

35:39

way your voice resonates and really

35:42

flows into us, this is

35:44

an improv. I don't know what you're

35:46

going to say. Ivy doesn't know what you're

35:48

going to say. It is improv, right? And

35:50

so we're creating something wholly new. And I

35:53

think that's really powerful too. We're

35:55

making art together and conversation

35:58

is art. And so... There's

36:00

something really beautiful about that and the nature of

36:02

it. I think so too. And

36:04

yeah, I mean, I love improv, so this

36:06

is obviously a natural fit for

36:09

scratching that itch. But

36:11

I just want to thank you both for

36:13

helping us all appreciate the importance of aesthetics

36:15

in our lives. And the stress-reducing benefits are

36:17

clear. The creativity upsides are clear. But

36:21

also, it just leads to a richer

36:23

conversation. So thank you both. Thank

36:26

you. Thank you. Thank you for appreciating

36:28

it. Make more magic. I won't

36:30

say that literally. But thank you. My

36:37

takeaway from this discussion is that we need to stop

36:39

thinking about art as just a hobby,

36:41

and start treating it as an important priority.

36:45

Not just because it's enjoyable, but because

36:47

it expands our minds. Rethinking

36:55

is hosted by me, Adam Grant, and

36:57

produced by Ted with Cosmic Standard. Our

36:59

team includes Colin Helm, Eliza Smith, Jacob

37:02

Winning, Asia Simpson, Samaya Adams, Michelle Quinn,

37:04

Ben Van Ting, Hannah Kingsley-M This

37:14

episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Thank

37:27

you.