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state law. Everyone

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is Adam Grant. Welcome back to rethinking

1:14

my Podcast and the science of what

1:17

makes us tick with the Ted Audio

1:19

Collective. I'm an organizational psychology and I'm

1:21

taking you inside the minds of fascinating

1:23

people to explore new thoughts and new

1:25

ways of thinking. My

1:30

guess today's you've all know a

1:32

Harare. He's the historian best known

1:34

for his book Sapiens, which has

1:37

sold over twenty five million copies

1:39

and spent more than two hundred

1:41

weeks. And the New York Times

1:43

bestseller lists. You've all has a

1:46

new book for young readers. Unstoppable

1:48

Us Volume Two: Why the world

1:50

isn't fair? In many cases, there

1:52

is really a contradiction or a

1:55

clash between justice and peace. Let's.

2:05

Start unfairness then since it's the subject

2:07

to the our. maybe you can answer

2:09

a question that bothered me since I

2:11

was a kid. I remember growing up

2:13

my mom would always say life isn't

2:15

fair. And. I hated

2:17

hearing that. I. Think you have an

2:19

explanation that might be a little more satisfying than the

2:21

one that she gave. Us Our

2:24

ideas of feminists are usually

2:26

stories invented by humans. And

2:29

the universe doesn't follow

2:31

of stories. So. Most

2:33

concepts of fairness and justice.

2:35

They have just human imagination.

2:39

And of when we try to impose

2:41

them on reality, it it doesn't work.

2:44

At. Least some of the worth

2:46

catastrophes in human history or

2:49

care because humans try too

2:51

hard to impose their concept

2:53

the Furnace on the universe.

2:55

When. You have this kind of fall scientists

2:58

if a perfect world and you encounter with

3:00

the imperfect world. So. Many

3:02

people who are standing in your

3:04

way to accomplish this kind of

3:06

perfect world and you then begin

3:09

to see them as evil. Are.

3:11

Because they are trying to

3:14

prevent Sona still trying to

3:16

prevent justice and this is

3:18

at the root of many

3:20

of the worst was and

3:22

worth conflicts that happened in

3:24

history. Every piece in history

3:27

needed compromises, including compromises on

3:29

what we understand as justice.

3:31

And. One. Of the big

3:34

differences between justice and peace is

3:36

that and justice tends to be

3:38

subjective. Every person Every

3:40

people everywhere leads and have their

3:42

own the Phoenicians whereas Pcs much

3:44

more objective or people being killed

3:46

or not. Is. Is not

3:48

a matter of belief. Ah, this

3:51

is a matter of reality. Are

3:53

you saying then that we should care less

3:55

about fairness and justice than we do? We

3:57

should care about them very much. But

4:00

we should be aware that it

4:02

is impossible. To. Create a

4:04

completely perfect society. Completely just society

4:07

stand. Especially because different people have

4:09

different concepts of what justice means

4:11

and automates leave. We have to

4:14

choose between justice and peace. I

4:16

would go be peace. I

4:18

would see you in Psychology We we tend

4:21

to think about three different definitions of fairness

4:23

that people often class ever. One is is

4:25

a quality where everyone gets that the exact

4:28

same outcome and most people tend not to

4:30

like that and others equity where people get

4:32

what they deserve and then a third is

4:34

need where the people who are most disadvantaged

4:37

sir, unfortunate and up getting the greatest attention

4:39

or or support i'm thirsty heard is a

4:41

couple things. One is how you react to

4:43

the the a quality equity need to sinks

4:46

and is this a useful framework for you

4:48

for thinking. About why people disagree on

4:50

what's fair? What's what's your take on

4:52

that? I think it's It's very useful.

4:54

It's very accurate. I would only add

4:56

to that that in in many cases.

4:59

The disagreements or out about something

5:01

even bought more fundamental. Who the

5:03

We include? In the

5:05

community that deserve justice. Do.

5:08

Include only humans are

5:10

also other entities. And

5:12

who counts as a human? Very

5:15

often in conflicts between people. One.

5:18

Of the first steps is

5:20

to the human eyes, your

5:22

rivals or your enemies. One

5:24

of the big difference as

5:26

I think between philosophy and

5:28

history is that many things

5:30

that sounds simple and obvious

5:33

in the real more philosophy

5:35

when they tried to migrate.

5:37

To. The much harsher kingdom will see

5:40

story. They get lost on the

5:42

way. Will. This I

5:44

think goes to one of the

5:46

points that your most probably most

5:48

famous for hims which is six

5:50

him as he made it a

5:52

superpower. Without stories about who's in

5:54

our in group and who is

5:56

in our our group or who's

5:58

worthy and issues not there would

6:00

be no dehumanization. Write. Stories

6:03

are are are super power. It

6:06

what enables complete strangers

6:08

to unite. And to

6:10

work together towards common goals but

6:12

at the same time they could

6:15

also be there that they caught

6:17

with the cause of the worst

6:19

crimes. In in History. Ah,

6:22

We invent often turbo

6:24

stories. About the world

6:26

are about each other. I

6:29

think if we look especially the modern

6:31

world, we can say that there are

6:33

three big stories. That. People

6:36

tell about history and about

6:38

the question of of of

6:40

justice and fairness. Or

6:43

you have their facist story.

6:46

About the World about

6:48

History which says that

6:50

history is a conflict

6:52

between nations or between

6:54

races. And ah, it

6:56

will end only with

6:58

the victory of one

7:01

nation, all one race

7:03

over everybody else. When.

7:05

You have the Communist or

7:07

the Marxist story of history,

7:10

which again understands his story

7:12

essentially as a conflict as

7:14

a conflict between classes. Which

7:17

will end only with the complete

7:19

victory of one class over all

7:22

the others. The thirds

7:24

big story that people tale about the

7:26

world. About his story I think is

7:28

is much more of the mystic. This.

7:31

Is the liberal story. Which

7:33

doesn't see. His story is

7:35

essentially a conflict that the

7:38

other way around. Liberals tend

7:40

to argue to think that

7:42

all humans share some common

7:45

experiences. It doesn't matter of

7:47

two weeks, nation, or race,

7:49

or class. You belong. You

7:52

don't like pain, You don't

7:54

like hunger. You love your

7:56

children. You want dignity though.

7:59

Certain experiences. Common to

8:01

every one. Based on

8:03

these experiences, we should

8:05

be able to formulate

8:07

some common values and

8:09

common interests. Why he's

8:11

there? Conflict. And

8:13

injustice in the world. It is

8:16

not a structural problem with his

8:18

story, it's really a problem of

8:20

ignorance or misunderstanding. We fall victim.

8:23

To. And six in those,

8:25

for instance, like racism, which

8:27

tells us that one race

8:29

is fundamentally different from another,

8:31

oh, superior to another. And

8:33

the hope is that we

8:35

can just might not be

8:37

violence, but by talking with

8:39

each other, we can sometimes.

8:42

Understand this mistake.

8:45

And. Come up with a better

8:47

story. So. To take

8:50

some historical cases if you think

8:52

about say the formation of the

8:54

European Union which is a a

8:56

huge huge since and successful so

8:58

for liberal project. Ah,

9:00

it didn't come about by

9:02

one country defeating go the

9:05

others. It came about by

9:07

convincing the people in almost

9:09

thirty different countries to recognize

9:12

their served experiences and values

9:14

and interests. or to take

9:16

another example, the relative success

9:18

of the feminist revolution. Which.

9:22

Managed to Saints. What?

9:24

We think about gender, about men

9:26

and women and Lgbtq people and

9:28

so forth with very little use

9:30

of violence. So.

9:33

You can understand from the were describe it

9:35

that I ascribed to to the liberal story.

9:38

Which places a lot of

9:40

emphasis not on these kind

9:43

of inevitable structural conflicts between

9:45

human groups, but rather on

9:47

the content of our mind,

9:49

on the contents of our

9:52

imagination, Gives rise

9:54

to the hope that sometimes I

9:56

mean not always, but at least

9:59

sometimes week resolve conflicts and weekend

10:01

and at least some injustices

10:03

just by talking with each other.

10:06

Well. I obviously subscribe to that viewpoint

10:09

is. well, I think that the

10:11

empirical evidence I've read his is

10:13

really clear on this right that

10:15

nonviolent resistance campaigns are significantly more

10:17

effective than than violent resistance campaigns

10:19

even when you're trying to overthrow

10:21

an authoritarian government which is extraordinary

10:23

I don't know if you've seen

10:25

as the architecture with research or

10:27

not bad in their case, they

10:29

said he violent and nonviolent campaigns

10:31

every single one. That happened over

10:33

the course of more than a

10:35

century starting a nineteen. Hundred and

10:37

we see actually that that peaceful

10:40

resistance is more effective than violent

10:42

resistance. It

10:44

seems like there's. Rising discomfort

10:46

with that idea and people are more and

10:49

more unwilling to accept that that might be

10:51

possible today than they were even a decade

10:53

ago. When what do you think? his sense.

10:56

As. A Serbian. One of the

10:58

things that kind of products rises.

11:00

My way of thinking is that

11:03

very often we cannot explain the

11:05

causes. Of. What is happening

11:07

we can describe. The. Chain

11:09

of events. But we don't understand

11:11

the deep causes again. Because it's

11:14

it's It's very often it's because

11:16

something changes in people's minds. in

11:18

the stories, the believe and nothing

11:20

the structure of of the world's.

11:23

Know I look at the rise of fascism

11:25

in the Nineteen twenties and thirties. I

11:28

we not so much evidence and on

11:30

it we have them the wisdom of

11:32

him site and yet. Personally,

11:34

I don't have an explanation. Why?

11:36

Fascism rose in the Nineteen twenties and

11:39

thirties. I can describe how it happened,

11:41

but I don't know why. And

11:44

this is also true of what

11:46

is happening now. Ah, look into

11:48

the world. It's obvious that people

11:50

are again gravitating. Towards

11:53

seeing the world in

11:55

terms of inescapable conflict.

11:58

Whether. It's the way that food. Green

12:00

see the international arena over

12:02

there. it's internal conflicts in

12:04

countries like United States or

12:06

like my own, a country

12:09

of Israel. People are increasingly

12:11

attracted to seeing the world

12:13

simply in terms of power.

12:15

As is any human interaction

12:17

is always a power struggle.

12:20

When you understand reality simply in

12:22

terms of power, Then

12:25

you're inevitably drawn towards conflict

12:27

and towards ultimately towards violence,

12:29

because is everything is just

12:31

power? Oh really, since there

12:33

is no way to change

12:35

something in the world's to

12:37

and injustice just by talking.

12:40

The only way to change power

12:42

relations is automated force. When.

12:44

I think about myself. I don't think that

12:46

the only thing that interests me in the

12:48

world is power. This sometimes

12:51

I world powers. But very often

12:53

I have other interests. People are

12:55

interested also genuinely interested in something

12:57

like truth. Or. Something like

12:59

love. Not as a mechanism

13:02

to gain power. So.

13:04

If I don't think about myself,

13:06

As a simple power or crazy

13:08

individuals, why should I think like

13:11

that about the other people in

13:13

the world? A lot

13:15

of the relations between people

13:18

in the world they have

13:20

seeped by these six similar

13:22

stories. These fantasies in our

13:24

minds. Many. Of

13:26

these stories are wrong of

13:28

deeply wrong. But.

13:31

They. They. Potentially.

13:34

Could be changed through

13:36

conversations. And not through

13:38

violence. I think that's that's

13:40

certainly a great place to start. I

13:43

think it seems that this is hearted

13:45

a deer in times of threat. so

13:47

I'm a big a about the whole

13:49

body of evidence showing that when people

13:52

are facing personal thread or when they

13:54

perceive in a society a turbulent and

13:56

unstable and potentially disadvantage in them, they're

13:58

more likely to vote for tough done

14:01

that leaders as opposed to kind caring

14:03

Once on I think that has obvious

14:05

implications then for mean of for leaning

14:07

toward violence war as opposed to peace

14:10

and co operation. Not. I

14:12

think it's a self fulfilling prophecy that if

14:14

you think about the world simply in terms

14:16

of power, You. Will tend to

14:18

vote. For. Instance for politicians.

14:21

Who. Behave that way and then

14:23

it becomes a reality. Than.

14:25

Reality becomes like this zero some

14:27

power struggle. And than

14:30

other people are also forced. To.

14:33

To seems and and behaves

14:35

in in in that way.

14:37

The way we understand history

14:39

is it sells, seeps history.

14:42

That. The more you think about is

14:44

to read just in terms of of power

14:46

struggles. The. More Paul struggles There

14:49

will actually be in the world's.

14:51

To make peace. You

14:54

need an effort from a lot of

14:56

people at the same time to make

14:58

war. Often just one individual a one

15:00

policy is enough. To. Force

15:02

a conflict on everybody

15:05

else. This. Makes. It

15:07

much more difficult of course because you

15:09

know if you want peace, you need

15:11

basically to change the minds of everybody

15:14

simultaneously. If. You

15:16

have even one. Important. Policy.

15:19

Which. Six with this kind

15:21

of more violent and forth for

15:23

view of the world it is

15:25

enough to sloth. Ah are all

15:28

your attempts. I've been

15:30

curious about where we intervene to prevent

15:32

a self fulfilling prophecy from happening because

15:34

it seems like the more times the

15:36

cycle repeats, the more it provides historical

15:38

evidence That, well, if we ignore power,

15:40

then we're going to become victims of

15:42

it. And. So we we need to

15:44

respond to force with force. I think one

15:46

of the places that that I've tried to

15:49

intervene personally as is to say. Let's let's

15:51

actually think about what it takes to be

15:53

an effective leader. Let's think about reclaiming the

15:55

job. Let's consider the possibility that the it's

15:58

not as a role that requires. You

16:00

know the capacity to use power,

16:02

hard power. It's also a role

16:04

that requires relationship building skills and

16:06

emotional intelligence on the capacity to

16:08

communicate to build coalitions, diplomacy, conflict

16:11

resolution as out in one experiment

16:13

that when you know a I

16:15

simply reminded people that this was

16:17

a critical part of a leaders

16:19

job, that it shifted their preferences

16:21

and who they are willing to

16:23

vote for on. I don't think

16:25

that's enough. Obviously didn't strike me to. That's

16:27

an example of a way that we can

16:29

begin to change the story of what we

16:31

need in people who are going to play

16:34

these roles that ultimately decide have hours the

16:36

used. How do you think about any Myself

16:38

I'm telling prophecy or or maybe even making

16:40

it a self negating prophecy. It's.

16:42

Important to realize that if you take

16:44

a long term view of history we

16:46

do not see. A kind

16:48

of constancy of of violence.

16:50

we see more peaceful and

16:52

more violent conflicts. I am

16:54

a periods. Falling. One another,

16:58

Those people who argue that humans have

17:00

always been violent and war either is

17:02

a constant seats With human nature. They'll

17:05

just projecting. Their own

17:07

ideas. Onto. The record,

17:09

it's not their. Even also

17:11

that date. You. See ah,

17:13

these kind of waves of

17:16

peaceful peaceful periods and violent

17:18

periods into changing in recent

17:20

decades, we have actually a

17:22

and managed to reduce the

17:25

level of international violence to

17:27

historical low the early Twenty

17:29

First century. It was the

17:31

most peaceful era in human

17:33

history as far as we

17:36

can tell. It's not

17:38

just evidence from you know number

17:40

of was on number of casualties.

17:43

it's also see look at for

17:45

instance state budgets what to government's

17:48

spend their own. Resources.

17:50

On. For most of human

17:52

history. The. Number one item

17:54

on the budget of everything

17:57

Every Emperor ever of public

17:59

everything. State. Was. The

18:01

military. If you look

18:03

say in the early twentieth century than

18:05

during World War One, of their Britain

18:08

spent about sixty percent of its budget

18:10

on the military's During World War Two,

18:12

it rose to seventy percent. And

18:15

it's was the normal suitable serfs. If

18:18

you look if you read. State.

18:20

Budgets from the early Twenty

18:23

First century. This is that

18:25

may be one of the

18:27

most optimistic and and and

18:29

a reading materials ever. Much

18:32

more convincing than any pacifist

18:34

track, because you'd find that

18:36

worldwide. Taking. All countries

18:38

into consideration. The. Average

18:41

expenditure on the military

18:43

was down to seven

18:45

percent. Of the

18:47

government's budget. In

18:50

contrast, expenditure on healthcare.

18:53

Rose. To ten percent

18:55

of the budget. Worldwide

18:57

governments are spending considerably

18:59

more. On. The Health care. Than

19:02

on the military. And

19:04

this was unthinkable. For. Most

19:06

of his story. And it was

19:08

actually a teased. Still, It's

19:10

not some kind of blastocyst

19:12

fantasy for the future. Was

19:16

actually achieved. In recent

19:18

years we'll seeing the resurgence of

19:20

war. In. Many parts of the

19:22

world. exotic in my region of of the Middle

19:24

East. Because it in

19:26

the decline of war was not the

19:29

result of some divine miracle of the

19:31

result of a change in the laws

19:33

of nature, it was a result of

19:35

humans changing their own behavior and they

19:37

can change it back And we all

19:39

know unfortunately changing it back and we

19:41

are seeing a resurgence of war work.

19:44

Simply realizing. That.

19:47

The level of violence is not constant,

19:49

and that if we make the effort,

19:52

We. Can create a much more

19:54

peaceful society. This is the first

19:56

step. Towards

19:58

actually realizing. I.

20:01

Love the point that we can

20:03

disrupt the inevitability narratives just by

20:06

attending the variability. Throughout. History

20:08

and I wonder if we we could broaden

20:10

the lens a little bit and say we

20:12

don't just have to do this with humans

20:14

You could actually do the same thing with

20:16

with primates to so I can't I can't

20:19

count the number of times I've heard somebody

20:21

say you know humans at their core are

20:23

just chips. And sims go to

20:25

war A sense it's just inevitable. And whenever

20:27

I hear that I want to say whoop,

20:30

What? About the fact that we share

20:32

ninety nine percent of our Dna with

20:34

the nobles who are peace loving, searchable

20:36

creatures. Like why we only indexing on

20:38

the tip model. the minimum models are

20:40

just as relevant to us and we

20:42

should be aware that both are possible

20:44

and our choices decide which path we

20:46

end up on. Ah, Absolutely.

20:49

And you know people often say that we

20:51

live in a jungle. I'm

20:53

in. This is actually a hopeful things

20:55

to say because you know if you

20:57

look at how jungles actually function. Every

21:00

jungle in the world's in

21:02

Amazonia in India. In every

21:05

rainforest in the world. Really

21:07

based on a lot of

21:09

corporation? And seemed your

21:12

says and altruism displayed not

21:14

just by Aids. But

21:16

by countless animals and plants

21:18

and fun guy and bacteria.

21:21

Is in real jungles.

21:24

Organisms simply completed full power

21:26

for had Gemini, The rainforests

21:28

will die very very quickly.

21:31

Or this is the real loss. the jungle. Ah,

21:35

Ensued apply to us t. And

21:38

another thing that. When people compare

21:40

humans to chimpanzees though to wolves,

21:42

have to lions and so forth

21:44

and so you know concept is

21:46

inevitable. One think we should remember

21:48

is that other is actually a

21:50

difference there. Humans usually

21:53

site for different reasons.

21:56

Than. Chimpanzees or rules.

21:59

Are. Among. Social animals. We do see

22:01

a lot of conflict. Most. Conflict

22:03

is either about food or territory.

22:05

Humans A lot of people think

22:07

that humans side for the same

22:10

reason. That. We also fight over

22:12

thirty three or food, but it

22:14

is not. Certainly not

22:16

in the modern world if I

22:18

think about they. He's running Palestinian

22:21

conflict. Ah, It's not about

22:23

food. There is enough food between

22:25

the Mediterranean and the Jordan River

22:28

to feed everybody. There is no

22:30

absorptive lack of food. And

22:32

if you think about the know like

22:34

they receive of Ukraine it's certainly not

22:37

photo it or Russia the biggest. Country

22:39

in the world he doesn't lack. Total.

22:42

War is really about

22:44

the imaginary stories in

22:46

the mind. And

22:48

on the one, and this is a truly

22:50

tragic. That that even though

22:52

there is no objective reason to be

22:54

killing each other people's to do it

22:56

about you can also read it in

22:58

a hopeful way. That. Are

23:01

there is no objective reason to

23:03

fight? And if we can somehow

23:05

sold out their fantasies in our

23:07

minds. Week. And then live in

23:09

peace. I think this goes

23:11

to one of my favorite observations of yours

23:14

which I just get a quote you to

23:16

you have for your recognize the words You're

23:18

at it this way this is the best

23:20

reason to learn history. Not in

23:22

order to predict the future, but to free

23:25

yourself from the past and imagine alternative destinies.

23:28

When I think about from Jerusalem, this is

23:30

that the biggest problem of Jerusalem. It has

23:33

too much history. People. Are

23:35

caught up in in in the history.

23:37

In the stories we tell about the

23:39

past and I think we need to

23:42

learn more history. And not

23:44

him in order to remember what happened to

23:46

hundred years ago. Five Hundred years ago and

23:48

they did this to us and they that

23:50

to us. but to be liberated. From.

23:53

You know if you have all

23:55

these dead people from the past

23:57

basically holding captives? Arm. Are

23:59

emerging. In. Our. Minds

24:01

of feelings, And forcing

24:04

us. To. Continue.

24:06

Their conflicts, their

24:08

hatreds, their fear.

24:11

Snow. There is both a wonderful things

24:13

about the past. Or not saying that

24:15

we need to get rid of of all of it's. The

24:18

idea is you know, like we'd

24:20

get this inheritance from from from

24:22

the past like our ancestors are

24:24

passing on to us this big

24:26

suitcase. Full. Of things. They

24:29

accumulated and they tell us we

24:31

carried it for hundreds of years.

24:33

Now it's your turn now. You

24:35

carry this baggage and I think

24:37

what we need to do is

24:40

open the suitcase and sorted out.

24:42

We don't really have to carry

24:44

everything that's in the. Of

24:47

the that such a powerful way of

24:49

putting it a remote areas of one

24:51

of my favorite meme which those that

24:53

traditions are just peer pressure from dead

24:55

people. Here

24:58

for the moment we are born. We.

25:01

Are shaped by these legacies

25:03

from the past. In.

25:05

Our deepest fears of deepest hopes that

25:07

the the com from there you know

25:09

with if you're a kid and you

25:11

wake up in the middle of the

25:13

night afraid of there is a monster

25:15

under the bed this is actually a

25:17

story cause memory. From. Hundreds of

25:20

thousands of years ago when humans lived

25:22

in the Savannah and though we're actually

25:24

month or as that came to eat

25:26

children in the middle of the night

25:28

at she told com and allowed com

25:30

and if you wake up in seer.

25:32

And cry out your mom. You have a

25:34

chance to survive. And this is what

25:37

a such a powerful. Survival.

25:39

Mechanism, but we still carries with

25:41

us. In. The Twenty First

25:43

Century. The fact that we get

25:45

these legacy for on ancestors doesn't

25:47

mean we have to behave like

25:49

them. He doesn't mean we have

25:51

to repeat the mistakes. But.

25:54

Equally we consists of a be

25:56

a blank slate. Were

25:59

history has less. No marks and

26:01

we can start from zero. This is

26:03

also impossible. Maybe. A related

26:05

mistake that a lot of people

26:07

make is there to focus on

26:09

that is that the goal of

26:12

basically making their ancestors proud. When.

26:14

They should be more concerned about making their

26:16

offspring proud. Seats it's you can't

26:18

help your ancestors anymore, right? You may

26:20

feel indebted to them. You may owe

26:23

them something in your own mind, but

26:25

they're not going to benefit of many

26:27

of your choices today. On the other

26:29

hand, you're successors will write our children,

26:31

their children, future generations. I think we

26:33

have a greater responsibility to the future

26:35

than we do have to the past,

26:37

and it seems to me that most

26:39

people think that the other way around.

26:42

Since. It's it's. a very good point. The

26:44

people in the past the old then. They.

26:46

Don't care. The. People who lived

26:49

since reason thousands of years

26:51

ago and that created the languages,

26:53

their religions, the name, since, the

26:55

ideologies that we now Terry.

26:57

they're all dead. And

27:00

they don't care. Not just about what we

27:02

do, the don't even care about how we

27:04

remember them. As. A

27:06

So and I. I don't think that history is the

27:08

study of the past. I think it's the study

27:10

of change. Of understanding

27:12

how things change, what

27:14

we can do is

27:17

trying to present or

27:19

correct the injustices of

27:21

the present in the

27:23

future. And this very

27:25

often involves forgiving. Same

27:28

justices or the past. For

27:30

the sake of ensuring peace

27:33

in the present in the

27:35

future. Ready.

27:40

For the lighting rent. Ah yes! What's.

27:43

The worst advice you've ever gotten. Just.

27:45

Be true to yourself. Or

27:47

in the big question is. Getting to

27:49

know yourself. What's your best

27:51

advice for thinking more like a historian?

27:54

Histories complicated. You

27:57

should be able to hold the. To

27:59

so. At the same time. In.

28:02

Most cases the same people

28:05

are both victims and perpetrators

28:07

at the same time. What?

28:10

Is something you're rethinking right now.

28:12

Are you been rethinking lately? Can

28:15

democracy survive without

28:18

nationalism? More. And

28:20

more convinced that in the

28:22

least many cases. Nationalism.

28:26

Is a precondition for democracy. And.

28:28

With out and. Strong.

28:31

Patriotic Feelings without

28:34

A and. A

28:36

strong national communities democracy cannot

28:39

survive. Know by nationalism I

28:41

am don't mean the dark

28:43

side of nationalism. Off.

28:45

Of hating and fighting other

28:48

communities. I mean the ceiling

28:50

of it Special love and

28:52

care for your particular community.

28:55

I. Think that with out that a

28:57

democracy cannot survive for long. This

29:00

is really tricky though. It feels like a

29:02

bit of a slippery slope a I think

29:04

of some work by Marilyn Better, for example,

29:07

which suggests that most discrimination stems not from

29:09

our crew paid, but from in group lists.

29:12

And. If you just have a preference for

29:14

your own kind, that's enough to create

29:16

entire structure is and cultures. that and

29:18

at privileging one group over others. That's

29:21

true, But again, the other side of

29:24

the coin is that. Without

29:26

strong feelings of a national

29:29

community. People.

29:32

Feel loyal only to one

29:34

tribe. Within the nation.

29:37

They would do anything. To.

29:39

Win the election for their tribe

29:41

if they when they only take

29:43

care of their own tribe, not

29:45

caring about the other tribes in

29:47

the nation. If they lose, they

29:49

see no reason to accept the

29:51

results and over time this leads

29:53

to the collapse of of the

29:55

democratic system. There's. The distaste

29:57

in that's often overlooked between. Being

30:00

proud of your grip. And.

30:03

Saying this group is is a great

30:05

fit for me. At the end

30:07

saying I'm attached to my group and

30:09

it's better than all other groups. The.

30:12

Key distinction is between. Ceiling.

30:16

Unique and feeling

30:18

superior. It's

30:20

perfectly fine to feel that my

30:23

group is unique it especially for

30:25

this sense. it has a special

30:27

concerts and we need to safeguard

30:30

and develop it. That's true for

30:32

almost all groups and ceiling that

30:34

my group is superior to the

30:37

others and sue the have special

30:39

privileges and and it's and in

30:41

the right that other groups don't

30:43

don't don't deserve. And this is

30:46

really the difference between the kind

30:48

of positive patriotism and the dark.

30:50

Side of of nationalism that

30:52

can easily Zealand's direction of

30:54

fascism and racism and and

30:56

so forth. You.

30:59

Been writing and think a lot about tech. What?

31:02

Do you foresee coming it with a

31:04

I? As a historian that most the

31:06

world. Doesn't. See. It.

31:08

Will take over a culture. At

31:11

that. The tendency to think about a I

31:14

In terms of, you know, think. God's.

31:16

It's autonomous weapons systems that

31:19

it will transform of of

31:21

have pools. But

31:23

as a story and I much

31:25

more concerned. About the potential

31:28

of a I to take over

31:30

a culture. To. Take over.

31:33

All it's religion. Already.

31:35

Today he eats doing it. In

31:38

ten years maybe we'll create

31:40

not only Compass the new.

31:43

Styles. Of Art Book Completely

31:45

New Religions. Which. Will then take

31:47

over the world. Thinks. To

31:49

look forward to. Physicists?

31:51

What's the question you have for

31:53

me? Why

31:56

do you think that? The. Is

31:58

it's it seems to become. More

32:00

difficult to simply hold a

32:02

conversation. With. People

32:05

who think differently from you. I mean,

32:07

you're holding conversations all the time. I.

32:10

Did seats part of the job. And.

32:13

It now seems that

32:15

especially in democracies, The

32:18

conversation is breaking down.

32:20

We. Have the most sophisticated, Communication.

32:23

Technology in human history and people

32:25

are just unable to talk with

32:27

to one another anymore. What's happening?

32:30

There. Is a study published couple years ago showing

32:32

that people would rather have a conversation with

32:34

a stranger who share their political views and

32:36

then a friend who didn't. Which.

32:40

He I thought, was it just a

32:42

stark illustration of a pattern you're describing?

32:44

We know that algorithms are really good

32:46

at at amplifying outrage and making extremes

32:48

seem. Both more extreme

32:50

and more pervasive than they really

32:52

are. I think that aggressive gets

32:55

attention and with that does is

32:57

it elevates both the most extreme

32:59

and the most hostile views and

33:01

then rewards people status for expressing

33:03

their views. And pretty soon we

33:05

have where researchers have called a

33:07

perception gap where you know in

33:10

the Us for example democrats believe

33:12

in a caricature version of Republicans

33:14

who wants to control women always

33:16

at all times and want people

33:18

to shoot. Each other with guns whenever

33:20

they want to and republican seen equally

33:23

caricature version of democrats who want to

33:25

completely abandoned the idea of merit and

33:27

want to kill babies and what know

33:29

and to be safe as it goes

33:32

back to your idea about the primacy

33:34

of stories I think when when those

33:36

stories are the ones that are told

33:38

most frequently and most vividly. You.

33:41

Start to believed. Let.

33:43

Me: take my job back here and

33:45

turned the tables. Factor On: The one

33:47

thing that always bugged me as a

33:50

social scientist about the humanities is the

33:52

comfort with argument over empirical evidence. And

33:55

he that sometimes have a read a theory

33:57

from history and save you could test that

33:59

his. Medically, let's begin to measure

34:01

some of the the variables and to

34:04

it's year point they're not always can

34:06

explain but sometimes we can test whether

34:08

they describe and predict Well I wanted

34:10

to push you may be on one

34:12

of those that I was reading about

34:15

recently. Actually, I think you're probably your

34:17

most famous argument from From Sapiens is

34:19

that there was a cognitive revolution about

34:21

what years ago seventy thousand give or

34:24

take potentially a gene mutation allowed Homo

34:26

Sapiens to be better storytellers, better communicators

34:28

are better at language. And that's

34:30

why we outlasted the Neanderthals is

34:32

that it? Is that a fair

34:35

oversimplification? Yes, Okay, so I

34:37

was reading a book recently by

34:39

a sociologist Jonathan Kennedy, called Pathogenesis,

34:41

where he says that there's no

34:43

evidence that there was a gene

34:45

mutation around that point. Where I

34:47

think it's more compelling is that

34:49

Homo Sapiens had a greater resistance

34:51

to disease the Neanderthals and so

34:53

they were able to survive plagues

34:55

and other events that could wipe

34:57

out a species. And

35:00

I'm like oh this is a great opportunity to

35:02

say okay we could gather the date right I

35:04

think during the historical data is probably. Hard

35:06

going that far back. but this isn't

35:08

an empirical test waiting to happen in

35:11

the absences. You don't have that kind

35:13

of test. How do you think about

35:15

sorting out the differences between your thesis

35:18

and the disease thesis? I'm.

35:20

Not committed. It's all to the gene

35:22

of us victim of From Ceases. What?

35:25

I'm committed to is this in front

35:27

of the of storytelling and six and

35:29

and the ability to imagine narratives. As.

35:32

The driving force of history

35:34

and is the source of

35:36

the unique super power of

35:39

Homo Sapiens compared to neanderthals

35:41

or chimpanzees or other animals.

35:43

What strikes me again on

35:46

on the empirical level, that

35:48

until about seventy thousand years

35:50

ago, you don't see either

35:52

Homo Sapiens or any of

35:55

the other human species doing

35:57

something particularly remarkable. We.

35:59

Have our. The answer says is

36:01

very small groups they don't

36:04

have any particular. Achievements

36:06

unique to them in terms

36:08

of technology or most importantly,

36:11

any sign of of love

36:13

skill, corporation. You don't have

36:16

evidence for trade, You don't

36:18

have evidence for cultural traditions

36:21

spreading quickly. Or. For political

36:23

arrangements larger than a single

36:26

bend. Then. After

36:28

about seventy thousand years ago,

36:30

you see two things happening.

36:32

For the full, you see

36:34

Homo Sapiens spreading out of

36:36

our ancestral home, live in

36:39

Africa very rapidly. In evolutionary

36:41

terms, Over. Running know

36:43

just the Neanderthal homeland in

36:45

Europe and Western Asia. But.

36:48

Also East Asia. Also.

36:50

Reaching Australia which no human species

36:53

or actually no big land mammal

36:55

or a reached before sapiens or

36:57

got that Australia around sixty fifty

37:00

thousand years ago as and also

37:02

crossing the bones traits to America

37:04

which is something that no Neanderthals

37:07

or Denisovans or any of the

37:09

other human species managed to to

37:11

to accomplish. At the same time

37:14

you find the first clear evidence

37:16

for trade. Routes. You find

37:18

local article record. License.

37:20

Moving long distances and the

37:23

first clear evidence for significant

37:25

autistic for this since like

37:27

the ones in the cave

37:29

are in in in in

37:31

cave ot and for large

37:33

scale political corporation for instance

37:35

in burial of certain individuals

37:38

with lots of grade goods

37:40

indicating that this was probably

37:42

either an important political or

37:44

religious figure and all these

37:46

things together or carrying at

37:48

the same time. leading

37:51

to Homo Sapiens becoming not says

37:53

the dominant human species the world,

37:55

but the only human species the

37:57

world's. Previously. You ads.

38:00

Simultaneously, five or six different

38:02

human species around, and within

38:04

a very short time. In

38:06

evolutionary terms, only Homo Sapiens

38:08

survives. Now what is the

38:10

explanation? To my mind, The

38:12

proximate. Cause. Of all

38:15

this is that sapiens gained the

38:17

ability to cooperate in large numbers.

38:19

And then the question is what

38:21

enables. Large numbers of

38:23

sapiens to cooperate and we don't

38:25

have of course any textual evidence.

38:27

but we do have gave all

38:29

the great good and so forth and

38:32

we also have the evidence from

38:34

later history and every so in two

38:36

minutes of this every large scale

38:38

human corporation is always based on fictional

38:40

stories. Whether it's religion, when it's

38:42

it's it's it's the most of this.

38:45

but also in economics. money. Is.

38:47

The greatest story ever told, but

38:49

it's completely fictional. It's value is

38:51

only their imagination. So

38:53

this is the kind of empirical basis.

38:56

I'm not saying that this the theory

38:58

of but the resistance to certain diseases

39:00

is wrong or a could very well

39:03

be right. but it can't be the

39:05

whole. On the so the whole that

39:07

that the whole story of how we've

39:10

been within a very short time evolutionarily.

39:12

Ah, this unimportant a heap from East

39:14

Africa conchords, the whole world. Last.

39:17

Topic before we wrap whatever

39:19

my favorite places of convergence

39:21

between you're thinking and psychology

39:23

is around the the fact

39:25

that reality is getting better

39:27

objective way. And happiness

39:30

is. Basically. A constant

39:32

and the way that we explain that

39:34

in psychology is that. Essentially,

39:36

you judge, share your happiness by

39:39

your expectations, not your circumstances as

39:41

I thought I thought. You capture

39:43

this very powerfully when you wrote

39:45

that The quotes one of history's

39:47

few i are laws is that

39:49

luxuries tend to become necessities and

39:51

to spawn new obligations. How

39:55

do we escape? This is the best vicious

39:57

cycle. or at least this he.a treadmill. I.

40:00

Don't know if if if sitting

40:02

on the individual level weekend meditates

40:05

we can go to therapy the

40:07

can rely on on out on

40:09

sports. Different people rely on different

40:11

method. It's looking at the whole

40:13

of human history. I can summarize

40:15

it's very briefly that as a

40:18

species we are incredibly successful. In.

40:20

Gaining power we have not

40:23

very good in translating power

40:25

into a happiness. Ah,

40:28

we are far more powerful than

40:30

war in the stone age. We

40:32

don't seem to be significantly heavier

40:34

than we were, and this is

40:36

a huge huge problems. And also

40:38

it's one of the reasons why

40:40

I think we should as far

40:42

as possible focus less on power

40:44

and more own happiness in our

40:46

understanding and of of human relations.

40:48

Also, in the present and future

40:50

because we don't need more power

40:52

we have enough of is already.

40:54

That's not where our problem lies.

40:57

Well. I'm so glad we finally got to

40:59

meet! It's endlessly fascinating to to get a

41:01

window into your brain to thank you. Thank.

41:04

You for the conversation. Take

41:09

it from a has north. you don't

41:12

have to carry the baggage of the

41:14

past, your core responsibility to lighten the

41:16

bird and for the future. Rethinking

41:24

It's hosted by me Adam Grant the

41:26

So as part of It's Head Audio

41:29

Collective and this episode with producing Missed

41:31

by Cause extended A producers are Henna

41:33

Kingsley My and is a Symphony or

41:35

editor is Alice Hunter Salazar perfect record

41:38

powder than original music by Has To

41:40

Do and Allison Late and Bread Or

41:42

Team includes Eliza Smith Take Up Winning,

41:44

Smile Adams, The South Side and Been

41:47

Saying Do Is A Person and The

41:49

Pentagon and Roger. Part

42:00

of me thinks that a little bit of

42:02

unhappiness is necessary for at for continued progress,

42:04

but I suppose we could question what really

42:07

counts as progress. I

42:09

and as far as as having a little

42:12

bit of unhappiness, it's not going to. It's

42:14

not going to run out anytime soon as

42:16

we don't need to engineer misery had it's

42:18

an open. Yes,