0:01

I started getting the calls and the text

0:03

messages in the spring of twenty twenty.

0:06

People wanted to know what the hell

0:08

is up with that big homeless incumbent

0:10

in

0:10

Brentwood? I'm gonna sit out here and make everybody

0:12

drives up Samus any. See me here. Right here,

0:14

you know, next to your fancy

0:16

restaurants. I'm Anna Scott from

0:18

KCRW, It's City of Tence

0:20

Veterans Row. Listen now wherever

0:23

you get your podcast.

0:30

From the Center for Investigative Reporting in

0:32

PRX, this is REVEAL.

0:35

I'm Alex. Ever

0:38

since Seth Uphoff was a little kid,

0:41

he knew what he wanted to be when he grew

0:43

up. I'm a little odd in

0:45

that at about the age of

0:47

twelve. I figured out that I wanted to be a prosecutor.

0:50

And I know this sounds maybe a little cheesy,

0:52

but really when I think back on

0:54

it, I think a lot of it started

0:56

with law and order. Law and

0:58

order. As in the TV show,

1:00

salacious court cases ripped from the

1:02

headlines. Seth grew up watching

1:05

these fictional prosecutors in New York

1:07

battle it out in court. As prosecutors,

1:10

they were doing what I thought was right and, you

1:12

know, trying to uphold justice and put the

1:14

bag out behind bars. Maybe

1:16

part of his fascination with law and order,

1:18

both the show and the 7Year. Was

1:21

because he grew up in Livingston

1:23

County, Illinois, home with the

1:25

Pontiac Correctional Center. Most

1:27

anybody

1:28

who grew up in Livingston County has some connection

1:30

to the prison.

1:35

You can hear the there's a big horn

1:37

that sounds at the prison. You can hear that even

1:40

out in the country. And

1:42

so the prison was a very large

1:45

looming figure in Livingston County. There

1:48

was a lot of kids I grew up with, their parents,

1:51

or friends, or prison guards.

1:53

One of my very good friends, his dad

1:55

was a prison guard, and so growing up, going over

1:57

to his house, you know, he'd see his dad come home from

2:00

work. He he would tell stories about what

2:02

goes on in there. And and as somebody

2:04

who was growing up in a small farming

2:06

community, you'd hear about some of these guys and

2:08

it would, you know, make your eyes widen.

2:11

And it weirdly gave

2:13

you a little sense of pride that Wow. We're

2:15

we're dealing with big things here in this

2:17

little area.

2:22

When Seth grew up, He got his law degree

2:25

and eventually moved back home to Livingston

2:27

County, where he ran for office as

2:29

the state's attorney. That's the local

2:31

prosecutor. He won the election,

2:33

but once he got the job, his sense

2:36

of right and wrong didn't always square

2:38

with how the criminal justice system actually

2:40

operates. This

2:44

week, we're revisiting the story we first

2:47

brought you last year in partnership with

2:49

the podcast motive. From WBEZ

2:51

Chicago. Reporter Shannon

2:54

Heffernan was working on the series

2:56

investigating Illinois prisons and

2:58

the communities around it. That's when

3:00

she first came across Seth's story. Before

3:03

we get started, a warning. Today's

3:05

show covers topics of self harm.

3:08

Here, Shannon.

3:10

Seth Alpoff came into office hoping

3:12

to be the kind of prosecutor he saw

3:15

on TV. Someone who would take

3:17

dangerous people off the streets and

3:19

put them behind bars. And

3:21

when he came to office, his job was to prosecute

3:23

the things you'd expect, like robberies.

3:26

But one thing that was unusual about

3:28

being a prosecutor in Pontiac is

3:30

a bunch of the cases came from inside

3:33

the prison, people who were already

3:35

locked up. And did you realize

3:37

when you took this job, how much you were gonna be

3:39

dealing with prison cases?

3:41

I underestimated it. What

3:44

I found was that the vast majority

3:46

of cases were assaults

3:49

on the correctional staff. But

3:52

the types of assaults were not

3:54

the physical assaults that most

3:56

people would envision. A lot of these

3:58

assault cases were really

4:01

bodily fluid cases. So, you know,

4:03

these were guys who were spitting at the

4:05

officers. They were throwing

4:07

urine. They were throwing feces. Throwing

4:10

bodily fluids on a guard can be considered

4:13

battery of a peace officer. It can

4:15

add gears to someone's sentence. Above

4:17

notice that a lot of the guys getting charged

4:19

in prison had serious mental

4:21

illness. Sometimes the court would

4:24

have to call in a psychiatrist. To evaluate

4:26

if someone was even fit to stand trial. And

4:29

above said, the guards, the victims in these

4:31

cases, weren't always thrilled

4:33

when he called them in to testify.

4:35

Here they were getting called in

4:37

as witnesses, sometimes on the day

4:39

off, sometimes on vacation, and

4:42

sometimes it would just the wrong time of

4:44

day. Because if they're a night shift, we're

4:46

calling on a minute, eight, nine o'clock in the morning for

4:48

trial. They're supposed to be going home to go to

4:50

bed.

4:50

Right. It's like you're asking them to Is there four

4:52

AM in the morning? Right. And so I recall

4:54

an officer coming in and it was somebody

4:56

that I knew. I said, hey, you know, what

4:58

are you here for me? Because I'm here some case and I don't even

5:01

know I don't even know if I remember this and then I

5:03

grabbed the report and I said it was this guy and

5:05

this would happen. And he goes, oh

5:07

my gosh. That was like three years ago.

5:09

And I said, 7Year. Yeah. It was. And he goes,

5:12

in in in not so many words, he said, I've grown

5:14

up a lot in three years. I would have handled that

5:16

a lot differently. Now than I

5:18

did then. This guy was, you know, I

5:20

thought disrespecting me and he spent

5:23

on me and I wasn't gonna take that from him

5:25

and so I wrote this thing up. And nowadays, I would

5:27

have handled that very differently. I don't even know

5:29

if if I would have known you guys were gonna prosecute

5:31

it. I would have contacted somebody and

5:33

said, hey, look, wave this one off,

5:36

you know. I'll

5:41

pass tomates, he had over a hundred prison

5:43

cases in a year. And after a while,

5:45

he starts thinking, maybe these

5:47

cases aren't worth pursuing, at least

5:50

not so many of them. Some of the victims

5:52

seem annoyed to come in, and a lot of the

5:54

defendants already have long sentences.

5:57

Up off a small town states' attorney

5:59

can only bite off so much. Maybe

6:01

this isn't where he should focus. So,

6:04

Uphov says he went to the warden of Pontiac

6:07

Correctional

6:07

Center. And we had a long discussion about

6:09

that. And came to

6:12

an an agreement where we said, look, only

6:15

send us over the cases that you really want

6:17

charge. That you really believe that

6:19

you can't deal with in house or that need to have

6:21

the follow through of the state's

6:22

turnoffs, and we're happy to follow through on those.

6:25

I reached out to the wharton from that time.

6:27

He declined a comment. But at least

6:29

from APOP's perspective, the wharton

6:31

was on board with this

6:32

proposal. And above thought everyone

6:34

would love it. So I think it was good for them.

6:36

I think it was good for us. In retrospect,

6:38

I I was little naive. And

6:41

really that was

6:42

political, novice, mistake.

6:44

There's one man who became a kind

6:47

of symbol for how these prosecutions were

6:49

working. It's someone who was charged

6:51

before Uphov came into office, but

6:54

still ended up having a big

6:56

impact with Uphov with state's attorney.

6:58

His name is Anthony Gay.

7:01

He's a short guy, compact, and

7:03

he says he was growing up inside

7:05

the

7:05

prison. Changing.

7:07

Because they say we're like plants. We need to grow

7:09

in or die. Gay loves

7:12

having a pithy turn of eyes, other

7:14

people's quotes, but also his own expressions.

7:17

Like, when we're talking about something that was unfolding

7:20

in court, he said, this case

7:22

has enough twists and turns to

7:24

send a pretzel maker into ecstasy.

7:26

I don't think I've ever met somebody who

7:29

has as many quotes memorized as you.

7:33

I mean, I guess they're in fact, I got a

7:35

book that I'm working on called quoteable quotes

7:37

in dirt will be time,

7:38

man. Because they're inspiration. Right? Gay

7:41

is always working on something like this.

7:43

He's already published a book of his reflections

7:45

from prison called rope of hope.

7:47

He struggled with mental illness from a young age,

7:50

He's been diagnosed with borderline personality

7:52

disorder. Eventually, he was

7:54

charged with stealing a hat and a

7:56

single dollar bill. From a guy he'd

7:58

gotten in a physical fight with. That

8:01

got him on probation, but then

8:03

he drove without a license and ended

8:05

up with a seven year

8:07

sentence. He was twenty years old.

8:09

He spent time in a few prisons around the

8:11

state. When

8:14

you're putting a cell like that, you

8:16

start to psychologically bounce

8:18

off the wall. So you

8:20

start creating, like, human

8:23

attention, social

8:24

stimulation, and visitors sort, so

8:26

you become aggravated

8:29

over the smallest things. Like

8:31

in one prison, staff once forgot

8:34

to give him a pillowcase. He had

8:36

so little to focus on, but this just

8:38

infuriated him and he went off

8:40

on guards. Another time

8:42

he said he got in a fight with another

8:44

incarcerated man, and that sent

8:47

him to segregation, where he was

8:49

stuck all day in a cell.

8:51

He thinks segregation exacerbated his

8:54

mental

8:54

illness, affected how he behaved. You

8:56

know, I have a scene where I say, when

8:58

I talked about Pontiac, right, saw a terrible

9:00

finding in Pontiac. And I said

9:03

that this environment is so

9:04

sick. It inspires you to become sick.

9:07

Hoping you can offset him. The

9:09

symptoms of his mental illness got worse,

9:12

much worse. I don't want to

9:14

be too gory here. But

9:16

I do want to drive home how

9:18

bad it got for gay and solitary and

9:21

the self harm he did. At

9:23

one point in segregation, he

9:25

stabbed his thigh with a spoon so

9:28

deep that it had to be removed surgically.

9:31

Another time he mutilated his privates

9:34

His arms are so full of scars from

9:36

self harm that they look like tree branches.

9:40

And Gay says, the same desperation.

9:42

That led him to self harm. That

9:44

same need for some kind of stimulation,

9:47

any kind of stimulation, is

9:49

also what led him to act out

9:51

against staff. He admits

9:54

he threw liquids on staff and he's sorry

9:56

for that. Gaye has said he

9:58

knows it warifies

9:59

officers. But the thing is

10:01

in his mental state at the time, he

10:04

wanted them to react He

10:06

wanted the cell extraction team to come

10:09

and to drag him out. I used to do

10:11

this at one point, fight the cell extraction

10:13

team to fill a lie. Right?

10:16

So when you're cutting

10:18

yourself, you feel a lie. When

10:20

they beat you up, you feel a

10:22

lie. When they spread you with

10:24

mace, and it's burning your

10:26

skin, you come to

10:28

realize, yeah, you're still human. You're you're

10:31

still alive. Right? He ended

10:33

up getting criminally charged for throwing

10:35

what staff reported was a brown liquid at

10:37

guards. Case says it was coffee. He

10:39

was charged with battery. He got five

10:42

years added to his sentence. Gaye

10:44

basically says the prison put him in segregation,

10:47

which made his mental illness worse. He

10:49

acted out then they punished

10:51

him for it by keeping him in prison

10:53

and segregation even longer.

10:58

Gay's close friend, Christopher Knox,

11:00

spent a lot of time in segregation too.

11:03

Sometimes in seg they could yell underneath

11:05

their doors and hear each other. Just

11:08

a side note. When I interviewed NOx,

11:10

we were outside. The cicadas in

11:12

Illinois were really

11:14

loud. And what what kinds of things would

11:16

you talk about?

11:17

Oh, we've reminisced and then

11:19

we would talk about litigation. Litigation.

11:22

NOx had been charged to. So

11:24

they'd be in these tiny cells behind

11:26

big heavy doors shouting out the bottom

11:28

about legal strategies for the cases they've been

11:31

charged with. And also these civil lawsuits

11:33

they started up filing about prison conditions. Even

11:36

in segregation, they had a legal right

11:38

to access the law

11:39

library. So with very little

11:41

to do, they plow the legal tax.

11:43

We both definitely had our moments 7Year he

11:47

say the law says one thing. I said,

11:49

it says another thing. And then

11:51

when we go look it up or something like that,

11:53

it says something totally different from what we

11:55

both were saying. But no but

11:57

Andy, he he was still saying he was right.

12:00

Stephen? Right. He stopped. And

12:02

Devin stopped. Stubborn,

12:05

but also very

12:06

good. Oh, babe. They

12:08

might have witnessed gold get that man of his license.

12:14

In fact, there's one case that

12:16

is legendary. Gay was

12:19

charged for another alleged battery.

12:21

That occurred just after that first

12:23

liquid case. This all, by the

12:25

way, still underneath Seth Alpoff's

12:27

predecessor A prosecutor named

12:29

Tom Brown referred to in a

12:31

Chicago Tribune article as Maxim

12:34

Tom because he had a reputation

12:37

for always seeking harsh

12:39

sentences. Now,

12:42

gay amidst he acted out against staff, threw

12:44

liquids on them, stuff like that. But

12:46

this incident, the one that he was charged

12:48

for, he said it was false

12:50

or at least off the mark. He

12:53

admits he was teasing one guard about his

12:55

girlfriend. A nurse on staff, saying

12:57

that when he got out of prison, he wanted to

12:59

be with her. He said the guard got

13:01

so mad. He tried to strangle him

13:03

through the bars. And gave knocked the guards

13:05

hands away. The guard story is

13:07

different. He said gay, unprovoked,

13:10

reached out to the bars, and hit him in the face.

13:13

The case was sent to the prosecutor, local

13:15

state's

13:16

attorney, Tom Brown, and

13:18

Gaye was charged with battery. They

13:20

expect it to

13:21

be a slam dunk. Which all cases

13:23

mostly are for him. Right? After all,

13:25

it's a correctional officer's word against

13:28

the word of a man in prison. And

13:30

this is a prison town, with prison

13:32

town jury. In the court

13:34

transcript, a bunch of potential jurors

13:36

talk about knowing prison staff. One

13:38

was a guard, one had a son-in-law, who was

13:41

an assistant warden. Most of those

13:43

people got dismissed from jury

13:44

duty, but still one person ended

13:46

up on the jury who said she knew four different

13:48

guards. Add them as neighbors. You have

13:50

to think about Pontiac Correctional

13:53

Center is the second highest

13:55

employer in Livingston

13:57

County. So many

14:00

people who support the correctional offices

14:02

So for the most

14:03

part, you didn't stand a chance.

14:06

On top of that, gay decided

14:08

to represent himself. No lawyer.

14:11

He didn't trust the local public defenders,

14:13

assumed they had ties to the prison too.

14:16

So he's there, lawyer and defendant,

14:19

in handcuffs and leg shackles.

14:22

The deck was really, really

14:24

stacked against him. Reading

14:29

through the trial transcripts, there's no

14:31

doubt Anthony Gates, not your typical

14:33

lawyer. Like, when the judge asks lawyers

14:36

if they have anything else before of jury comes

14:38

in, gay says hell no. And

14:40

he refers to the judge as man.

14:42

As in, what do you wanna ask this witness?

14:44

Nothing man. But still

14:46

is 7Year, gay had a strategy

14:49

of how to win. Knew the

14:51

documentation in the case inside

14:53

and out that allowed him to

14:55

poke holes in people's testimony. For

14:58

example, there was an investigator from

15:00

the prison that looked into this alleged

15:02

assault.

15:03

They had no intentions of calling her as

15:05

a witness. So I called her as,

15:07

like, what they call a adversary witness

15:10

or hostile she put her on the stand

15:12

and basically in peace jury.

15:16

Gay pointed out how her earlier testimony

15:18

before grand jury that he had seriously

15:21

injured the

15:21

guard, didn't match the medical

15:24

records that showed there were no injuries.

15:26

And then I showed her the medical report and

15:28

compelled her to read that it

15:30

was totally opposite to what she

15:32

told the grand

15:33

jury. Basically, they

15:35

made this key person look unreliable.

15:38

He noticed people in the courtroom watching it

15:40

all unfold. I could hear them in the

15:42

back sand. He's good. He's and

15:45

the prosecutor can hear it

15:46

too. Other people told me gay was

15:48

sharp too. In fact, Seth Apoff,

15:50

the state's attorney you heard from earlier. He

15:53

said when he first took office, one

15:55

of the judges told him, don't sleep

15:57

on Anthony Gay. This

15:59

trial, it was short. And

16:01

after the testimony was done, the jury came

16:03

back with a big fat, not

16:05

guilty. He said he was amazed.

16:08

He came back and shared the news with his friend,

16:10

that guy in cell near him. Knocks.

16:13

Just describe that moment. Hey,

16:16

Chris. Hey,

16:18

Chris. A sub man.

16:20

I did it.

16:22

I did it. I'm a bibb.

16:26

I did it. Excuse my name.

16:28

So thought, but there was his rose. I

16:31

didn't. I said, what?

16:33

So I was

16:33

brown. I took them

16:34

down. How what did you say

16:36

to Anthony when they said that?

16:38

That's my boy. That's

16:41

my boy. This

16:43

is a man. Self

16:46

educated yourself. You

16:48

know, he learned a lot and

16:51

you go in there and

16:53

you beat a man

16:56

who with the school for this for years

17:00

says a lot. I

17:06

get the feeling that this win. It was a big

17:08

deal not just for gay, but for the other men

17:10

on his wing too. He'd beaten

17:12

Tom Brown, maximum Tom.

17:15

The person who prosecuted a lot of cases

17:17

against people in prison. But

17:19

this win many ways was

17:21

also when things got worse for gay. Gay

17:24

is convinced it set off something in

17:26

Tom

17:26

Brown. I think he's out in bears.

17:28

Right? I'm a prison. I'm a prison. Right?

17:31

Lock that up and punny acting. You

17:34

know, people talk they say gossip is America

17:36

snack. Who. So I think

17:38

people were probably talking about it or he

17:40

was weird about his image of being

17:42

beat by a prisoner.

17:47

I reached out to Tom Brown several times

17:49

to talk about this trial and about Anthony

17:52

Gay, but he never got back to me.

17:54

So he can't know how he felt about gay

17:56

or this case. And I don't know his

17:59

motivations. But after gay

18:01

one, brown piled on new

18:03

charges. There was this period

18:05

in two thousand and two thousand and one

18:07

and gay was in bad shape. He'd

18:10

been in segregation and was doing

18:12

a lot of self harm. But also

18:15

harming staff, mostly throwing

18:17

stuff at guards, though there were

18:19

some charges of head butting. Brown

18:22

kept bringing charges one after

18:24

another. A battery case for throwing

18:27

liquid got him three 7Year. Then another

18:29

one got him eight. Gay Lost

18:31

Case after Case, adding

18:33

ninety seven years to a

18:35

sentence, de facto life.

18:37

I decided I was going fight even if

18:39

I'll end up happen to die in there that

18:41

I was gonna fight against it because it was

18:43

wrong. But as good of a jailhouse lawyer

18:45

as he was, he needed

18:47

help. After a long search,

18:49

he found a lawyer, Scott Main.

18:52

This case just hit me on on

18:54

sort of a fundamental elemental level of like,

18:57

this can't be

18:58

it was a no brainer to

19:01

to wanna help in any way that I could.

19:03

Main argued gay's cases in appeals

19:05

court, and he lost a bunch. It

19:08

was one of his fellow lawyers who had the

19:10

idea to take a closer look at sentencing

19:12

rules. Instead. This is a little

19:15

technical. But basically, when

19:17

someone has multiple sentences, there are

19:19

two ways it can work. The

19:21

sentences can be served concurrently,

19:23

meaning at the same time. Three,

19:26

five 7Year sentences is still just five

19:28

years behind bars. That's how

19:30

it works in most cases in Illinois. But

19:33

there are exceptions where sentences

19:35

can be served consecutively, meaning

19:37

they stack on top of each other. So

19:40

three five year sentences is fifth

19:42

teen years. For

19:47

Gay, the sentences were stacked consecutively.

19:50

And Gay's lawyer thought that was wrong. More

19:53

than that, he thought the resulting sense was

19:55

outrageous.

19:56

He thought he was coming home in two thousand

19:58

five, and all of a sudden

20:00

he's not coming home for a hundred

20:02

years. And what

20:04

in the hell happened that got us to

20:07

that point? And he

20:09

saw an opportunity. By that

20:11

point, Tom Brown had left office.

20:13

And Seth Alpoff had taken his place.

20:16

Main heard he was handling prison cases a

20:18

bit differently and thought they might

20:20

have a chance with

20:21

him. He decided to be a thorn and

20:23

up off side about gay's case. Our

20:26

early strategy was

20:29

we are going to continue to say there's something

20:31

wrong here and we're gonna we're not going anywhere

20:33

and we're gonna keep talking about

20:35

this. And we're gonna keep talking

20:37

about this and keep talking about

20:39

this. And

20:41

so I first got the letter

20:44

from the attorney, Scott Main,

20:47

my first reaction was, well, mister

20:49

Main clearly doesn't understand the sentencing

20:51

structure. Was an Illinois, I was

20:53

pretty dismissive of it.

20:55

Even though Waupuf had started prosecuting fewer

20:57

prison cases, he wasn't a crusader

20:59

about prison or anything. He was still a

21:01

Walmart a guy. He trusted

21:04

the system, was sure it had gotten gay since

21:06

then. Right? So Boboff decided to

21:08

pawn the case off on his first assist Randy

21:11

Yedenoc. He assumed his assistant

21:13

would remain his letter. Take a few hours

21:15

to figure things

21:16

out. Show Gay and his lawyer how the sentencing

21:18

was done by the book. And that would be

21:20

that. Then sometime

21:23

later, our first assistant

21:25

comes back and says, boss

21:28

might be a might be an issue with this.

21:30

What do you mean? And he said, I I think

21:33

I think they might be right. And

21:35

I then said, well, I think they're

21:37

wrong, and now think you're wrong. And so

21:39

I want you to go back and basically do it

21:41

again. And he came back

21:43

again, and he said, boss I

21:46

I checked again and I

21:48

think even more than I did before that they're

21:50

right. And I said, well, I think

21:52

now even more than did before that you don't know what

21:54

you're looking at and you don't know what you're doing. I

21:56

thought this is sort of starting to waste my time

21:59

and waste my persistence time and

22:01

he finally comes back to third time. And

22:03

he says, boss, I've laid

22:05

it all out, and I'm gonna give you this this packet

22:07

of information here. And I think that

22:09

he's been incorrectly sentenced. And at

22:12

that point, I was little exasperated and I

22:13

said, you know what? I'll do this because I

22:15

was feeling pretty confident at that point in

22:17

time. But then when he did start

22:20

looking, reading the letter of the law,

22:22

getting into the technical parts, it

22:24

appeared the court did make gay symptoms.

22:27

Much longer than it should have

22:29

been.

22:29

And at that point, I started to have a

22:31

bit of a sinking feeling that this

22:34

was all wrong.

22:37

Then I had to start figuring out where do we

22:39

go from here, how do we address this, and

22:42

what do we do? The drama

22:44

that followed, to borrow one of Gay's quotes,

22:47

had enough twist and turns to send

22:49

a pretzel maker into ecstasy.

22:57

Seth Upoff knew what he wanted to

22:59

do, but now he

23:02

had to get a judge to agree with

23:04

him. He had been a judge for

23:06

a long time. He had seen

23:08

people come and go probably. He

23:10

was probably a little more politically

23:12

astute than I was at that time. That's

23:15

coming up next on reveal.

23:31

I may sound biased here, but I

23:33

think our stories are pretty great.

23:36

And if you're listening to this, I have a feeling that,

23:39

well, you might agree. But

23:41

have you ever been left wanting even

23:43

more? Reveal's newsletter goes

23:45

behind the scenes. Reporters describe

23:48

how they first found out about these stories

23:50

and the challenges they face reporting

23:53

plus recommended reads and

23:55

more. Subscribe now at reveal

23:57

news dot org slash newsletter. From

24:06

the Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX,

24:09

this is Reveal. I'm outlets.

24:12

We're teaming up today with the podcast motive

24:14

from WBEZ Chicago. Their

24:17

fourth season focused on big prisons

24:19

and small towns. Like Pontiac

24:21

Correctional Center in Livingston County,

24:23

Illinois. When Seth Uphov

24:26

was the state's attorney in Livingston, he

24:28

realized that many of the cases his

24:30

office was handling were coming

24:32

from inside the prison. Cases

24:35

like Anthony Gayes, Anthony

24:37

was originally sentenced to seven

24:39

years, but was facing more

24:41

than a hundred after being charged

24:44

for various offense while in

24:46

prison. None of this

24:48

was adding up for Seth. So he met

24:50

with a man who had a key role in

24:52

adding all those extra years to the sentence

24:55

former state's attorney Tom Brown

24:58

reporter Shannon Heffernan has been our

25:00

guide. She starts back at that conversation.

25:06

When I talked with Setha Poth, I

25:08

asked him what it was like to meet

25:10

up with Tom Brown. Especially

25:12

since he planned to question the way he had

25:15

done things. And were you nervous during

25:17

this

25:17

meeting? Were you feeling awkward? How are you feeling?

25:20

Yeah. I'm trying to think of

25:22

the word awkward

25:24

maybe fits it a little bit tentative

25:27

because he had been

25:30

supportive of me taking office. And

25:33

you never want to come to somebody that

25:35

you respect, and and

25:37

show up and say you made a

25:38

mistake.

25:39

So he has his history. You know, Tom Brown has his

25:41

history with Anthony Right. And as I was told, that

25:43

was a pretty embarrassing loss. And that may have

25:45

fueled the the way the cases

25:47

were charged against Anthony going

25:49

forward. And so that stuff was in the back of my mind

25:51

as I was speaking with him. Uphov and

25:53

Brown met outside for lunch at a little restaurant

25:55

close to the courthouse. And because Uphov

25:58

was worried it might be

25:59

uncomfortable. He says he waited until

26:01

they were both about done with their meals to bring

26:03

up Anthony Gay. And I said, I want

26:05

to talk to you number one because I'm hoping maybe

26:07

some light could be shed on this that would help me

26:09

figure out that how can combat this,

26:12

how I can show that that this was done correctly

26:14

because I wasn't trying to

26:16

protect harm I wanted to protect

26:18

the

26:18

system. I wanted to show

26:21

that the system had worked correctly.

26:23

He said Brown's initial reaction was

26:25

Anthony Gay, that guy's the worst.

26:28

He's

26:28

somebody who deserved to be locked up for the rest

26:30

of his life. That's why we did what we did. And,

26:33

you

26:33

know, did anybody ever tell you the story

26:35

about this and tell you the story about that? What

26:37

stories was he telling you? Do you remember? Oh,

26:39

some of the things Anthony Gay had done to himself.

26:42

You know, Anthony.

26:43

Like about mutants? Yeah. You

26:44

know, there's always these gory stories

26:46

that would come out. It

26:48

was clear to Uphov that Tom Brown thought gay

26:50

should be locked up. And

26:51

he said, well, they're they're wrong, and we

26:53

did it right, you know. So that was sort of the end

26:55

of conversation. By

26:59

this point, Uphov is starting to get

27:01

sick calls that adjusting gay sentence

27:03

might be politically risky. To

27:06

keep his job every four years, a

27:08

pop has to be elected. If

27:10

you're a politician in a place like Pontiac,

27:12

you don't want to piss off prison staff

27:14

or their friends and family. Even

27:17

a pop's own first to assist Randy

27:19

Yedanoke. The guy who came back and

27:21

said, hey, boss, they've got a point. That

27:24

guy. Up off said he starts

27:26

trying to talk him out of moving forward with

27:28

recalculating gay sense.

27:29

And he said at that time, why don't you just

27:32

object? They're gonna file this motion.

27:34

Just object. And then the

27:36

judge is gonna not grant it. The judge

27:38

is gonna he knows Anthony Gay. He's gonna say

27:40

Anthony Gay that no way the prosecutors

27:42

are wrong. And then it's gonna go to the appellate court.

27:45

And then let the appellate prosecutors deal with it. They're

27:47

not elected.

27:48

They're appointed. So

27:49

basically, he's saying you don't have to be the hero

27:51

here or the villain. You just

27:53

like, let it go.

27:55

Pass the buck. Pass into somebody else. Let

27:57

somebody else do it. And then you don't have to take

27:59

the e for it. Did you consider that at all? No.

28:01

For even a second? No. I

28:10

get the impression that up off is a

28:12

stubborn guy. He'll consider arguments

28:14

and think through them, but he doesn't go in

28:16

much for niceties. A classic, I'm

28:18

not here to make friends kind of guy. So

28:21

all this political talk about who would

28:23

think what? It didn't really change

28:25

much for him. He reviewed the law,

28:28

decided what it said, and that was

28:30

it. So we reached out to

28:32

Scott Main, gay's lawyer, and

28:34

said, looks like you're right. How

28:36

did you feel when you got that email? Unbelievably

28:39

happy. I

28:42

had been sort of a long time attorney

28:44

that did not ever

28:47

sort of expect

28:49

that the end of a conversation would

28:51

be with, like, yeah, we agree. Gay

28:53

was even more shocked. Because

28:55

he basically didn't trust anyone

28:58

in Pontiac. Remember, he

29:00

wouldn't even take a public defender because

29:02

he thought they'd be on the prison side. And

29:05

now, here was the state's attorney,

29:07

basically saying he should get out

29:09

earlier. I was definitely surprised because

29:11

I know there's a culture there. Right?

29:15

You know, there's a saying that says every man

29:17

who was truly a man was learned to stand

29:19

alone in the midst of all lovers. Give

29:21

me the against all others. And he

29:23

reminds me of that. So I have

29:25

to tilt my head's one. Yeah. For sure.

29:30

Days guilty verdicts still

29:32

stood, but the lawyers went back

29:35

and forth recalculating how

29:37

long he had to serve hind bars. If

29:39

approved, it meant instead of spending

29:42

his life in prison, gay would

29:44

go home

29:44

soon. They agreed to file a motion

29:46

together but up off had one

29:49

caveat. I don't want

29:51

a big press conference out in front of

29:53

Honeycutt Prison. Oh, look,

29:55

you

29:55

know, we prevailed on all this. I don't

29:57

want a big media fanfare. For

30:01

Maine and Gay, this was a major moral

30:03

victory. I bought prison, mental illness,

30:05

and solitary. About how punishment

30:08

can spin out of control. It'll be on logic.

30:11

But for Uphov, it was a case of just

30:13

following the law and trusting the system.

30:16

And he hoped the whole thing would go by without

30:18

too much attention. Now they just

30:20

had to get a judge to

30:21

agree. There was a hearing. What

30:23

was going through your mind in the courtroom that day?

30:25

I mean, I was very excited. Right?

30:28

Because I never gave

30:30

a hold. Right? And that was the payoff right

30:32

there. After all that time and work,

30:34

once they were in the courtroom, the

30:37

whole thing went pretty quick. A

30:39

judge asked a few questions and then

30:41

talk directly to

30:42

alpoff. I don't remember his words

30:44

bay verbatim, but he asked

30:46

him as short as something that he wanted to

30:48

do. And he told him this did

30:50

end up causing his 7Year. Or I

30:52

could end up with a noble peace problem.

30:54

Kaye's memory isn't exact, but

30:57

it's not far off. We got the

30:59

transcripts. The judge hold up off basically

31:02

If gay went on to commit a serious crime,

31:04

it would likely be a quote unquote career

31:06

buster for any state jobs. Quote,

31:09

because you can win a Nobel Prize after All

31:12

people in this county are gonna remember is

31:15

what happened in the courtroom today and

31:17

on whose recommendation.

31:18

He had been a judge for a long time.

31:21

He had seen people come and go,

31:23

probably. He was probably

31:25

a little more politically astute than I was

31:27

at that time.

31:28

According to the transcript, Up Off told

31:30

the judge, he understood, but it's

31:32

his obligation to apply the law equally

31:35

and fairly. Whenever

31:42

the risk were for up off, the stakes

31:44

were, of course, much higher for

31:46

gay. His

31:47

lawyer, Scott Main. And so I think

31:49

it was just an incredibly emotionally

31:52

charged moment. You thought you're

31:55

never gonna be able to come home to, there

31:57

is now a real chance that I

32:00

may come home very

32:01

soon. And and that was

32:03

something that will never leave me.

32:06

Then just like that, the

32:08

judge granted their request. There

32:11

were still details to work out. The gay

32:13

would be going home within a few years.

32:15

What was it like driving back to the prison

32:17

then? Like being in that van, going back

32:19

to the facility after that? And

32:22

a dream fulfilled. The

32:24

fight was worth it. And,

32:26

like, when I got back and I told people

32:28

people just, like, Prisons

32:30

was just exciting. Like, when I went

32:32

to the courthouse, as soon as I walked in,

32:35

they were screaming, like, 7Year and happy. Like,

32:37

even went home and I mean, they, like, made

32:39

a lot of

32:40

noise. Right? It was such a

32:42

rarity to see someone like them win

32:44

so big. Gay's friend Christopher

32:46

Knox who had racked up charges just like Gay.

32:49

He said this day was the first time in

32:51

a long time that he felt hope

32:53

that he might make it out of prison alive.

32:56

I never had that many years of

32:58

time when I was going through all that stuff, thought

33:00

I ever see these streets again, and how

33:03

I was done. They was

33:05

going to kill me. I was gonna kill myself. That's

33:08

how I felt. He he

33:10

motivated me to inspire me in so many

33:12

ways, man. No. Because

33:14

his story is ugly

33:16

though it's ugly, but at the same

33:18

time though it's beautiful. Just

33:20

like my eyes, 7Year so

33:22

ugly. But it's beautiful.

33:30

Even though there was no press conference, newspapers

33:33

still picked up the story. I was frustrated

33:35

because headlines were, you know, a

33:37

prosecutor agrees to reduce sentence or

33:40

inmate sentence produced. It

33:42

wasn't inmate sentence corrected.

33:45

It wasn't prosecutor insurers correct

33:47

sentence applied.

33:50

It was impossible at that point

33:52

for up off to believe this decision

33:55

about gay would go unnoticed. But

33:57

he was still two years away from election.

33:59

And he hoped maybe by then it would be ancient

34:02

history. But then when the

34:04

election rolled around, there was a twist.

34:07

Someone intimately familiar with the

34:09

gay case ran against

34:10

him. I appreciate jumping in here. My name is

34:12

Randy Yedan. And I do wanna be

34:14

your next Lucas and Cali States

34:15

attorney. This Cali has a lot of issues. Yep.

34:18

Randy Yedanach, Seth Alpoff's

34:20

now former first assistant. The

34:23

guy who initially looked into gay's case.

34:25

The guy who up off said warned him

34:27

he wasn't being politically smart when he

34:29

marched forward with recalculating gay

34:31

sentence. Were you surprised that

34:33

he decided to run against you?

34:35

I was under the particular

34:37

circumstances. Could

34:40

you were you close?

34:43

Yes. We were friends. We we had lunch

34:45

together almost every day. I'd been invited over

34:47

to his house for dinner with his wife and his

34:49

kids. And I thought of him as

34:51

really the truly the the the highest regard

34:53

of first assistant, which

34:54

is, you know, my my right hand

34:56

man. A path was hurt. His

34:58

sidekick was now his competitor. But

35:01

what really got to him was when people

35:03

on Yetanox side of the race began

35:05

bringing up Anthony Gay and saying,

35:08

Uphov had let off a dangerous criminal.

35:10

One letter to the editor in the local

35:12

paper explicitly mentioned Anthony Gay,

35:15

It warned people to note the date

35:17

gay would be released. Because anyone

35:19

who came in contact with him was at risk of

35:21

assault, quote, Uphov's

35:23

job is to protect us. He has

35:25

failed and put us all in danger. This

35:28

is why I and everyone should

35:30

vote for Randy Yet enoc. Yet

35:33

enoc posted the letter to his Facebook page.

35:35

The local asks me union, which represents

35:38

a lot of guards, endorsed Yetanak

35:40

too. I didn't see them

35:42

mention gay by name, but they said

35:44

they were confident Yetanak would quote,

35:47

ensure violent criminals who assault

35:49

staff will not be granted early

35:51

release. Randy

35:58

Yedanoke never agreed to an interview,

36:01

but we did go back and forth on email.

36:03

Yedanoke said he thought the issue of Anthony

36:06

Gay didn't play a huge role in

36:08

the election. And to be fair,

36:11

reading newspaper articles and social

36:13

media from the time does seem

36:15

like there were lots of other issues. Local

36:18

police didn't think Uphov was friendly

36:20

enough of law enforcement. People

36:22

characterized him as stubborn, not

36:24

willing to cooperate with others in the criminal

36:26

justice system, which I

36:28

can believe. That adds up for

36:30

someone willing to do what he did on

36:32

the Anthony Gay case. In

36:35

the end, Apophus pummeled. He

36:37

lost sixty to forty. Do you think that

36:39

the Anthony Gay thing had enough influence

36:41

on the race that it made a difference?

36:44

It's hard to say. It's hard to say.

36:46

It was a big voting block. With

36:48

that union. And that

36:51

it wasn't just a union also because that

36:53

anti law enforcement sentiment

36:55

or he's not gonna stand up for officers,

36:58

also trickled over into

37:00

regular law enforcement. And so

37:02

So you're not sure if the race would have been different.

37:05

Have happened one way or the other? No.

37:07

I don't know. I it it at least, in my opinion,

37:09

it at least would have been a lot closer. I may not

37:12

have won that election

37:12

anyway. I don't know. We'll never

37:14

know. So after all this happens in the state's

37:16

attorney's race, did your way you felt walking

37:18

around town change? I mean, this is your

37:20

hometown, did it change the feeling at all?

37:23

Nobody likes to lose. And

37:25

and to lose publicly. I mean, it's

37:28

politics is rough. It's a rough business.

37:30

And but you know, especially

37:32

as a prosecutor, you're elected to make the

37:34

tough decisions, to make the tough calls. And

37:36

if that means that someday, you're you're not in

37:39

that spot and so be it.

37:40

And, you know, politics. There's

37:42

no justice in politics. Uphov

37:45

said if he had to do it again, he'd

37:47

still work to recalculate gay's sentence.

37:50

But he'd be more diplomatic about the whole thing.

37:52

Reach out to the union, maybe work on his

37:54

talking points, so the press coverage was better.

37:57

He thinks if people would have understood that

37:59

he was just following the rules.

38:02

They'd see how he was truly a law

38:04

and order guy, not some enemy of

38:06

law enforcement. But honestly,

38:09

I'm not sure if that's true. I

38:11

don't think a puff story is about how

38:13

he failed to explain things well enough.

38:16

I think it's a story about how law

38:18

and order isn't really what

38:20

the prison system is run on. At least

38:23

not law and order as Uphov describes it.

38:25

A strict adherence to rules, carefully

38:27

parsed out, and applied consistently to

38:30

everybody. There are two

38:32

groups of people, prisoners and

38:34

guards, who can both do wrong

38:36

things. But one has the ability

38:39

to elect the person who decides when

38:41

to bring charges. The other

38:43

has very little b course. That's

38:46

how a man goes from a sentence of seven

38:48

years to a sentence of over hundred

38:51

7Year. That's what it comes down to for

38:53

me. Power, politics.

39:03

Gay was released in twenty eighteen.

39:06

He stepped over flowing boxes of his old

39:08

legal

39:09

files, in his dad's garage. I

39:12

felt like the

39:14

fight for justice had paid off,

39:16

but I felt like the mission

39:18

wasn't

39:19

complete. Because it's bigger

39:21

to me. Because

39:23

there were other guys on that wing who were still in the same

39:25

situation you had been? Right.

39:29

What do you think it meant to them to see for them

39:31

to see you win? I

39:33

know for sure it offered them hope. You

39:37

know, I got a letter from one of

39:39

the guys that I had wrote and told

39:41

them that I'm gonna start working

39:44

on something to try to help me. And now

39:46

I know he was surprised to hear from me.

39:48

And I got his letter right now, and he was

39:50

like, yeah, because people say that all the time. Right?

39:52

And they forget about you. But I'll

39:59

never forget about him because I'm I

40:02

know I'm close in person with what they're going through.

40:14

People in prison with mental illness are

40:17

still being prosecuted. The

40:19

Department of Corrections did not answer a detailed

40:22

list of questions we sent. But

40:24

told us they are obligated to report crimes

40:26

to the state's attorney, still Randy Yedanuk.

40:29

I also asked Yedanuk go for email about

40:31

the prosecutions. And he said, quote,

40:34

contrary to popular belief, correctional

40:36

officers do not sign up for this

40:38

type of behavior when they choose to wear

40:40

the uniform. It is not part of their

40:43

job to be physically assaulted, have

40:45

urine or feces thrown on them, or

40:47

be spat upon. Gay

40:52

says, of course, staff are horrified when

40:54

prisoners throw stuff at them. But

40:57

he believes that if people are really concerned

40:59

about staff assaults, instead of prosecutions,

41:02

they should fix the problems that cause

41:04

people to act

41:05

out. Like, hormonal health treatment

41:07

and segregation. They're not doing these

41:09

things because they're evil. They're not doing

41:11

these things because they hate correctional

41:13

officers. They're doing these things because they're

41:15

miserable.

41:24

When Shannon talked to Anthony, he was at his

41:26

parents' house. There was a poster

41:28

behind him that read dismantled

41:30

solitary confinement. It's

41:33

part of campaign that he worked on to eliminate

41:35

the practice in Illinois. The

41:37

State Department of Corrections said in a

41:39

written statement, that they consider a

41:41

person's mental health when placing them in

41:43

solitary. And while Illinois

41:45

has reduced its use of solitary confinement

41:48

in recent years, the practice

41:50

is still in use.

41:56

After the break, I think press

41:58

acuteers are the most powerful

42:00

people in the courtroom. You know? They

42:02

can decide how to charge

42:03

you, what to charge you with, whether or not they

42:06

should charge you at all. We take

42:08

Anthony Gay's story to a different

42:10

criminal justice expert. That's

42:12

next on reveal. Hello,

42:24

listener. My name is Najib Bahini,

42:27

and I am a producer here at

42:29

REVEAL. REVEAL is a nonprofit

42:32

news organization, and we depend

42:34

on support from our listeners, listeners

42:36

like you. Donate today

42:38

at reveal news dot org slash

42:41

doni. It helps fund the

42:43

stories that we tell, and and helps

42:45

me feed my cap. So

42:47

thank you.

42:52

From the center for investigative reporting in

42:55

PRX, this is Reveal. I'm

42:57

outlets in and I'm recording

43:01

Alright. Erlawn is recording. Hello.

43:04

Yeah. That sound cool. Alright. Here

43:06

we go. Here we go. Here we go. We just

43:08

heard how a prosecutor in a prison

43:10

town got voted out of office after

43:13

helping to reduce a man's sentence. I

43:15

wanted to take this story to a friend of mine

43:17

who just spent a lot of time learning

43:19

about a different prison

43:21

town. Erlawn, what is

43:23

up?

43:24

I'm I'm doing alright, man. I'm

43:26

enjoying life, man. That's all like to

43:28

say, I'm enjoying life. Erlawn

43:30

Woods is the host of the podcast earhustle.

43:33

He started making it with his cohost Nigel

43:35

Porter when he was doing time in Saint Quentin.

43:37

Now, he's out of prison and still working

43:40

on the podcast from the outside.

43:42

When we first aired this show, Hussle

43:45

had just released an episode about

43:47

a California town called Susanville

43:50

and how people living there had been shaped

43:52

by local presence. I

43:56

just listened to gabrieline Silver

43:59

Queen, and I should say that, like, that episode

44:01

is basically about a prison town that

44:04

is facing closure of

44:06

of one of its biggest prisons. Right? Right.

44:08

Right. Yes. The thing that struck

44:11

me is it just felt like a lot

44:13

of people in that town were also stuck

44:15

in cycles of of violence

44:18

The one correctional officer that you guys

44:20

got to talk to was really open and honest

44:22

with you, which, you know, in all the years I've been listening

44:25

to the ear hustle, I don't think I've

44:27

ever heard that type of interview.

44:29

Right. Right. Right. But it was just really

44:31

clear that he was so affected

44:34

by his time working in the prison.

44:37

Definitely. Now, you know, it's a trip.

44:39

You know, most officers do not

44:41

wanna talk to us either as by

44:43

fear of what other officers may

44:46

say about it, you know. And

44:48

every now and again, you would give one or two that's

44:50

like, man, what's up? I'll sit down and chop it

44:52

up with you. And think

44:55

the the guy we we interviewed. He was

44:57

very open, you know. Like you

44:58

say, he was at the end of his career, so he wasn't tripping.

45:00

Alright. So I wanna set it up. So

45:03

this is clip of you and your cohost,

45:05

Nigel Poare, talking with Dave Harwood,

45:08

who at the time, was a lieutenant at California

45:10

Correctional Center in Susanville.

45:13

So when you started twenty years ago,

45:16

can you describe who you were at that point?

45:20

Probably a lot more outgoing than

45:22

I am now. I would probably

45:25

be a lot more trusting than I

45:27

am now, a lot more relaxed

45:30

than I am now. I'll

45:32

be honest. I've been through a lot in the last

45:34

few years. There's probably undiagnosed,

45:37

my self diagnosis probably some PTSD.

45:41

I'm still kind of the same guy as

45:43

far as my activity levels go.

45:45

Mhmm.

45:47

But, yeah, way more trusting

45:49

than I am now.

45:50

So what changed those things?

45:53

Seeing what humans can do to each

45:55

other. And how quickly people

45:57

can turn on each other.

45:59

So when you go into a restaurant, what's

46:02

your I sit where I can see

46:05

what's coming. My

46:07

wife will adjust where she

46:10

sits so that I can

46:13

I have to see it coming? So

46:15

I sit where I can do that. You gotta watch that door.

46:17

Wait. Wait. Wait. You

46:18

always think about where we live.

46:20

Who coming through the door? You wanna at least see Well,

46:22

no.

46:22

And yeah. And, I mean, you

46:24

guys walk past things that I use

46:26

as protection as you walk through my house, but you never

46:29

saw them. As someone who was formerly

46:31

incarcerated, when you hear this correctional

46:33

officer talking about his

46:36

experience, which is on the other side

46:38

of what your experience was, what

46:41

kind of runs to your mind?

46:43

Well, you know, and when you look at corrections

46:45

and and and I know we in that specific

46:48

situation, we was talking about the differences between

46:51

a maximum security prison and

46:53

lower security. It's a whole different mentality.

46:55

So as I sat there and listened to him,

46:57

I pretty much can understand that I can relate to

46:59

him what his concerns are I

47:02

think, personally, I've always thought in

47:04

my head like, why is there a level

47:06

system set up anyway? And

47:08

just for our our listeners who aren't familiar

47:10

with that, Like, when we say level system,

47:12

there are prisons that are --

47:15

Maximum security -- Right. -- which should be

47:17

the highest levels. And then there's lower way you

47:19

can be in dorm living and level ones where

47:21

you could be outside the prison on fire camps

47:23

and

47:23

stuff. And so, like, the maximum security,

47:26

like, there's a fear that, like, these people

47:29

are more violent than say

47:31

someone in a lower security

47:33

prison.

47:34

Well, I mean, that's the theory, but that's not

47:36

true. I mean, like, you could take a person

47:38

that has three strikes. And they

47:40

they third strike might have been for still

47:42

in something out of the store. Based

47:45

on they have a life sentence attached to

47:47

that three strike sentence, it puts them

47:49

in position to go to a a level

47:51

four prison. It's and you don't necessarily have

47:53

to be, as they say, the worst of

47:55

the worst, anybody can go to a level four prison.

47:58

Yeah. I

47:59

wanna rewind a little bit because

48:02

a lot of this episode deals with a prosecutor

48:04

and the decisions that he made.

48:07

How much power from your vantage point

48:09

of someone who has been in

48:11

the system, but also is now reporting

48:13

on the system. How do you see

48:16

seculators wielding their power across

48:18

the country. I

48:20

think prosecutors are

48:22

the most powerful people in the

48:24

courtroom. You know? They can decide

48:26

how to charge you, what to charge you with, whether

48:28

or not they should charge you at all. So

48:30

I think when it comes to power

48:32

dynamic, the prosecutors are the most powerfulest

48:35

person The judge is just a referee. And

48:37

the head of a county

48:39

or a city's prosecution, the

48:42

district attorney they're usually

48:44

in elected position, which means that,

48:46

like, if they make a decision that

48:50

maybe the public do not agree

48:52

with, they can get voted out.

48:54

That that is correct. Even

48:57

if prosecutors, you know, wanna

49:00

go in and just shake it up a little bit,

49:02

and let's say, instance, the local law

49:04

enforcement is not liking what they're doing

49:06

or, let's say, they starting to charge law enforcement

49:09

officers with, let's say, these these

49:12

shootings that's on video. You know,

49:14

that's the the people that usually come out against

49:17

them and build the support to try

49:19

to get them removed from office. So

49:22

towards the end of the story about

49:24

Anthony Gay, we find out that the prosecutor

49:27

did lose the county reelection to his

49:29

assistant. Now the prosecutor has

49:31

a theory that if he'd only explained

49:33

things better that he was just fixing

49:36

a mistake, trying to apply the law correctly,

49:38

and not actually reducing a sentence,

49:41

then maybe the election would have

49:43

turned out differently. But the reporter

49:45

sort of disagrees with him on that point.

49:47

She thinks that The issue was

49:49

that he let an incarcerated person

49:52

leave the prison

49:53

early. What are your thoughts on that?

49:57

Well, you know, one thing I do understand

49:59

about politics especially on this level

50:01

is that fear mongering usually

50:03

went out. If you have enough individuals

50:06

making enough sound

50:09

bites on that fear

50:10

level, it wins out in the air. That's

50:12

real talk. No cut, no chase. You know?

50:17

That's Erlawn Woods, cohost of

50:20

the Earhorses Podcast. They have

50:22

a new season coming out season

50:24

eleven next month. You can check it

50:26

out wherever you get your podcast. Today

50:32

show was made in partnership with the podcast

50:34

motive from WBEZ Chicago.

50:37

Shannon Heffernan was the lead reporter Jesse

50:40

Duke's produced the episode with Joe

50:42

DeSoto and Marie Mendoza. Rob

50:44

Will DeBoer edited the show. Kevin

50:46

Dawson is the executive producer of motive,

50:49

Additional reporting and production by

50:51

Cola McNulty, Candice Middle Khan,

50:53

and Arnold Padron, original

50:55

music by QShop. WBEZ

50:58

just released a new season of motive

51:00

following the lives of anti violence workers

51:02

in Chicago. Subscribe wherever

51:04

you get your podcasts. Reveal's General

51:07

Counsel is Victoria Berenitsky. Our

51:09

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51:12

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51:14

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51:16

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51:19

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51:21

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51:23

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51:25

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51:27

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51:30

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51:32

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and the Hellman Foundation. Revel is

51:50

a coproduction of the Center for Investigative Reporting

51:53

in PRX. I'm Alexin.

51:56

And remember, there is always more

51:58

to the story.

52:09

From PRX.