0:01

Welcome to the Sales Enablement Society

0:03

Stories from the Trenches , where enablement

0:05

practitioners share their real-world experiences

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. Get the scoop on what's happening inside

0:11

Sales Enablement teams across the global

0:13

SES member community . Each

0:15

segment of Stories from the Trenches share the

0:17

good , the bad and the ugly

0:20

practices of corporate sales . Enablement

0:22

initiatives learned what worked , what

0:24

didn't work and how obstacles were

0:26

eliminated by corporate teams and leadership

0:28

. Get back , grab a cold one and join host

0:31

Paul Butterfield for casual conversations

0:33

about the wide and varied profession of

0:35

sales enablement , where there is never a fits

0:37

all solution .

0:39

Hello and welcome back to another episode

0:41

of Stories from the Trenches , the Sales Enablement

0:43

Society podcast , where we are

0:45

able to bring together enablement

0:47

professionals and leaders from all

0:50

over the world and talk about

0:52

the things that we have in common . By

0:54

that I mean common challenges , things we're all trying

0:56

to sort out and find

0:58

out how people are doing it and succeeding

1:00

. Sometimes we even talk about when it didn't go

1:03

so well , because there's a lot to be learned by

1:05

that and what adjustments were made Before

1:08

we get into it this week . One

1:10

of the things that we've all been dealing with

1:12

this year is saving

1:14

money without sacrificing productivity

1:17

. One

1:19

of the things that you should be looking at when doing

1:21

that , if you're not already , is a Lego . With

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learning , engagement and retention . Don't

1:57

let too much tech get in the way

1:59

of your team's performance . Demo a Lego's

2:01

revenue enablement platform . Today at alegocom

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slash demo . We appreciate

2:06

the support that a Lego gives us for this broadcast

2:08

, so I'm excited now to introduce

2:10

you to Kiran Smith . Welcome , kiran , hi

2:13

Paul . More than a pleasure to be here And

2:15

Kiran's calling in from Manchester . We had a nice conversation

2:17

about football . We won't bore all of you with that , but

2:20

Kiran is currently in fact . he started a new role

2:22

recently . He is now senior manager of GoToMarketEnablement

2:25

, a company called StaffBase . So

2:28

, kiran , maybe take a couple of minutes . introduce yourself a little

2:30

bit about the work you're doing .

2:31

Wonderful . Yeah , i have been at StaffBase

2:33

for a huge one month currently , and

2:36

what's interesting about StaffBase is they're the

2:38

first ever what they refer to as a communicon

2:40

, so the first ever internal communications

2:43

unicorn technology company

2:45

. So they do with all manner of internal

2:47

communications , intranet

2:50

, but our phraseology is not your 90s

2:52

intranet , it's not the traditional version . We do

2:54

all manner of internal communications , whether

2:56

that be through marketing or HR and those

2:58

sorts of things , and I joined the enablement

3:01

team a month ago to head up the EMEA region

3:03

. So , as you and I will discuss ahead of

3:05

this , paul , we've got quite a large enablement team

3:08

, certainly compared to my previous

3:10

experience . We have 17

3:12

in total across the globe . I

3:15

look after seven people or seven , including

3:17

myself , sorry And

3:20

yeah , we look at , we go right for the full

3:22

span from sales

3:24

, customer success . We look after partner enablement

3:26

, a little bit of everything . So it's been

3:28

a fantastic first month thus far , that

3:31

sounds like it .

3:32

So not your granddad's internet , right ? I like

3:34

that . Yeah , yes , all right , very

3:36

cool . Well

3:38

, before we get into the topic , today

3:40

no one gets out without

3:42

doing the Jimmy Kimmel challenge , and

3:44

so here we go . I'm sure you know it by

3:47

now Jimmy Kimmel's retiring next year

3:49

. Through your connections , You're offered

3:51

his show . You can have anybody you

3:53

want on the first episode . Who did you bring

3:55

on ? Who would you bring on and why ?

3:57

So this is probably me pulling back the

3:59

curtain on a bit of a bromance I have , but

4:02

if I was to be in that

4:04

chair , the first person I bring

4:06

on is Jamie Foxx . I've

4:09

been a fan of Jamie Foxx for a long time , but

4:11

I think he's also quite applicable , which

4:13

probably gives me delusions of

4:15

grandeur . But let me explain what I mean . What

4:18

I mean is Jamie Foxx is , for me , someone who

4:20

you're quite often told , especially when you're

4:23

younger in life , younger in your career , to stay in your own

4:25

lane , focus on one thing , be really

4:27

good at it , and I think he's a shining

4:29

example of you can be world-class , stroke

4:32

world , famous in multiple different things . He

4:34

started as a comedian , then became

4:36

an actor , he's also a singer , he's one of

4:38

Oscar , he's one of Grammy , he's one

4:40

of the world's most famous comedians . And

4:42

I think the best thing for

4:44

me is , if you ever see an interviewer like that

4:46

, he just is 100% authentic

4:49

and he always has fun . And I think

4:51

if I was to , you know , if that was

4:53

to cascade down , it's certainly not to the same

4:55

level of success , but certainly those values

4:57

I think . I look at those

4:59

and I resonate with those quite a lot . So I would pick Jamie

5:01

Foxx .

5:02

I think that'd be a great choice . I think the

5:04

first time I really took him seriously

5:06

maybe that's not even fair , but really known

5:08

as how , what ? the span of his because I always thought

5:10

him as a comedian , as you said was that Ray

5:13

Charles biopic that he

5:15

did , which was amazing . And then to learn that

5:17

he did his own , he

5:19

was , he was doing the music , he was doing the singing and he

5:21

was doing the yeah , absolutely

5:23

amazing And watching that , he's

5:26

one of those actors that you can very easily

5:28

forget that it's him right

5:30

. If you did , there was . There was no element of Jamie

5:32

in that portrayal of Ray , and so I walked from

5:34

that and I was just like wow , i was blown away . And

5:38

he's done quite a bit as well Others . All

5:40

right , so we're going to

5:42

talk today about a topic that I know is

5:44

is it gets a lot of , it's a

5:47

lot of public discussion right now , and

5:49

that is the and some people may

5:51

have different terms for it , but operational

5:53

versus strategic enablement , and

5:56

so what I'd love to , something you and I are both passionate

5:58

about . Again , we were talking

6:01

a bit about it . Just because

6:03

definitions are not always

6:05

the same in our industry , would you maybe

6:07

start by defining , for

6:10

our discussion , the differences of

6:12

operational and strategic .

6:14

Sure , and , like you say , some

6:16

people know it as as other things . So

6:19

my definition of operational versus strategic

6:21

, so starting out , the strategic side is

6:23

that's when you're you have a seat at the table , that's

6:25

when you're looking at making an impact . First and

6:27

foremost , everything that you do ties to

6:30

a key initiative

6:33

, strategic initiative , an OKR , something like

6:35

that . But ultimately it's all about

6:37

the whatever , the North Star

6:39

of the revenue or guess . I would say that the vast majority

6:42

, not all , but the vast majority of people enable

6:45

us and people who listen will report into the

6:47

CRO or some sort of head of the

6:50

revenue function And and

6:52

I think they're North Star is always revenue And yes

6:54

, there's multiple levers we can pull to help them

6:57

get there . But but it counts the

6:59

strategic . We want to , we want to see at those tables

7:01

, we want to be involved , we don't want to be dictated

7:03

to . I think I'll use that as a segue

7:05

of moving over to operational

7:07

. I think operational enablement

7:09

is , i suppose the

7:11

, the , the dirty stereotype is just

7:14

the training department , but I think

7:16

to go a level deeper which probably will resonate

7:18

with a lot more enableers , it's all about being dictated

7:20

to , told what to do , when to do it not really

7:22

understanding what the bigger picture

7:24

is or not being told what the bigger picture

7:26

is . Sometimes it's not even about understanding , and

7:29

then What happens is everything

7:31

you tend to do . You tend to be more reactive

7:33

, you tend to be fighting fires , you jump , you

7:35

jump from context to context . You don't quite

7:37

understand what we're doing . I think the

7:39

reason that you and I have both exceptionally passionate about

7:41

it , paul , is one of those . If

7:44

you focus on the strategic side , that will

7:47

lead you towards being seen as a strategic

7:49

partner with the , with the revenue . Or if you

7:52

look at the other side , you look at , you look at the training department

7:54

, or you just become a cost center

7:56

or sales support , and I don't think anyone in enablement

7:58

, i think , i suppose , if you look at it that way

8:01

. But I think calling enable us just sales

8:03

support is almost a little bit Derogatory to the skill

8:05

set that we have and certainly the impact that we can make

8:07

. But that's how I would define the differences between

8:09

the two .

8:10

Yeah , and I think you'd agree that we're

8:12

not saying operational is not important .

8:15

No , you can't be all strategic .

8:17

Right , exactly , you've got to be delivering . But

8:19

are you delivering with intention ? Right

8:22

, and you delivering with an outcome in mind

8:24

that can be measured and reported on and that

8:26

sort of thing ? But just be clear , whatever we're not saying

8:28

the operational , but I agree with you , it's

8:31

um and and I , and I think that

8:33

there's a mix . I think that sometimes

8:35

In enablement , it's actually

8:37

on us that we don't have that seat

8:40

at the table , because and you and I are getting

8:42

into this How do we , how do we brand

8:44

enablement internally , how do we talk about the

8:46

work that we do ? right , we're

8:48

gonna get into that . So the

8:51

other thing that I thought

8:53

would be interesting is

8:55

in your experience , does

8:58

, where enablement report Impact

9:01

the ability to be strategic you know

9:03

, reporting to a COO versus rev

9:05

ops , versus marketing , and

9:08

, and most recently , you

9:10

know I've run into some folks that report up into

9:13

HR and L&D which , being

9:15

honest , i think would be really difficult to

9:17

be revenue focused . but have

9:20

you seen , just just for sake of discussion

9:22

, a difference there ?

9:23

I've been fortunate enough to only report into the

9:26

CRO in my enablement career , which is not as

9:28

long as yours , paul , but I think

9:30

. I think last year I was at One

9:33

of someone and the enablement event

9:35

and it showed the stats from Forester of The

9:38

impact that teams reporting into

9:40

the CRO have compared to marketing , compared

9:42

to HR and L&D , and

9:44

I think the reality is for

9:47

us , if we really Work , if

9:49

we want to get to the operational level work on

9:51

these building these key levers of revenue

9:54

, then realistically , not a big fan

9:56

of the world should , but and let's be honest We

9:58

should report into the CRO or whoever the

10:00

I agree . And

10:02

that because HR and L&D have a completely

10:05

different remit to revenue . They're all about education

10:07

and training and more so

10:09

about the amount of development , and

10:11

but development , as You

10:14

know , personnel development as opposed to sales

10:16

development or performance development . We are very much

10:18

performance managers And

10:20

that's what we , that's what we look to influence and try an

10:22

impact where we can . So if we're not reporting

10:25

into The person who's

10:27

ultimately responsible for that , then I think there's

10:30

a disconnect right from day one . Yeah .

10:32

Yeah , i would agree with that . So

10:34

let's get into to

10:36

to some of the how and some of the nuts and

10:38

bolts of this . So you referred earlier

10:40

to the fact that it's critical to be

10:43

able to tie back to I

10:45

can't refuse where tape , kpis or metrics

10:47

are . You know it's a bit but , um

10:49

, that's

10:51

something that I'm sure some of our listeners Have

10:54

maybe even heard people talk about , but they're not doing it

10:56

currently . So I would . I would love

10:58

to have you break down for them

11:00

. You know , what should they look

11:02

for , right , what should they agree to build ? Just

11:04

just talk to us a little bit about that metrics

11:07

piece first .

11:08

Sure , well , i mean , i can certainly give you my world

11:10

view on it . My world view is , let's

11:13

just say we get to the end of of 2023

11:16

. I don't know , i'm wishing , wishing everyone's life away , i

11:18

don't mean that . But we get to the end of 2023 If

11:20

the ease of conversation , the company finishes

11:23

on a hundred million dollars a hour and

11:25

the target for 2024

11:27

is a hundred and twenty five million a hour . I

11:30

think at that point is where enablement

11:32

need to be involved in the conversation . At that point

11:34

, not Not after its

11:36

beat . So , soon as the target's been decided , we

11:38

look at which levers we can pull . So hopefully

11:41

, lots of people are familiar things like the sales velocity

11:43

equation and all these lovely ways of

11:45

doing it . Because , as enablement

11:48

We have , whether

11:50

it's you know , obviously you've been all the way up at VP

11:52

level , ball right , so you , but you've got your team who

11:54

know everyone on the front . You know on the front

11:56

lines and you know where the performance gaps

11:58

are . So it's easy enough just to put a 25

12:00

million increase on For next year . But

12:03

which levers are we going to pull ? is it more opportunities

12:05

? Is it higher average order value

12:07

? Is it shortening the sale cycle ? because

12:10

, realistically , what's happened and No

12:12

one can really deny this now is in the last five or ten

12:14

years , all we've all CROs have

12:16

done is hire more people , and that's proving

12:18

that it doesn't work right Like

12:21

it's .

12:21

The price is so big .

12:22

Yeah , right , but it's the longest , most

12:24

expensive , most ineffectual

12:27

way to get more revenue and we've no

12:29

one can deny it now . So if we are , if we

12:31

know what that target is going to be and yes , we can split

12:33

that down by , say , region or NRR

12:36

versus ARR , whatever it may be , and

12:39

my long-term , long-term client value any

12:41

of these things But I think if we know what these

12:43

targets are , we can , if we've got

12:45

someone strategically minded for running

12:47

that enablement function , we can then jump

12:49

into that conversation and we can go , we can give

12:51

our expertise and how we do that . So then how that

12:53

then cascades down is let's just say

12:55

, we agree on a 10% increase

12:57

on opportunities , at 5% increase

12:59

on average order value throughout the sales velocity

13:02

equation . That's fine

13:04

, but what does that mean ? Then we have

13:06

to cascade that down again . So then that's where

13:08

we probably go from the strategic thinking

13:10

down more towards operational

13:12

. This is where we start to be becoming that . So

13:15

again , there is a big difference for me between

13:17

influencing these

13:19

metrics and then being fully accountable

13:21

for them . Now the reality is we don't carry bags

13:23

, we don't manage teams of salespeople

13:25

, so we can buy influence . So

13:27

where we move from the strategic side to

13:30

the operational side is we might move to something

13:32

like a competency framework or we

13:34

might look at some of the things that we can do

13:36

and we can break that down by role . if it's opportunity

13:38

. What's their percentage

13:40

, inbound versus outbound ? What's our strategy

13:43

for these ? What tactics do we employ ? So that's

13:45

where we really get involved , and then we

13:47

roll that down from what behaviors

13:49

do we want to change ? What are the timeline , what's the actual

13:51

metric ? we want to move by team , by region

13:54

, whatever , whether that's 5 , 10 , 15 percent

13:56

, and then we get down to so what programs

13:58

do we build ? So now we're getting really

14:00

and then over . so is this a

14:02

blanket program ? Is this a program

14:04

for the regions , for a team , is it for a person

14:06

? Because once you've got that level

14:08

of information and you actually know what the North Star looks

14:11

like , depending on what

14:13

sort of whether it be tech , stack

14:15

or timescale you have available

14:17

to you , you can go all the way down and be like really data

14:20

driven and you can be really bespoke with

14:22

what you're doing . Right , and that's

14:24

how I look at it is we need to be involved from

14:26

the start and you need to have a strategically minded

14:28

enablement leader to

14:31

then bring that down And then at that point

14:33

we then cascade it across the entire department

14:36

in terms of what are the levers we're trying to pull , because

14:38

you know as

14:40

well as I do , paul , like if the fastest

14:42

way for us to get that 25 million is us increasing

14:44

the average order value and keeping everything else the same

14:46

, because we're not going to hire , or you know the

14:49

market saturated and all we focus

14:51

on is cold calling out , you know objection

14:53

, handling stuff like that , then we've

14:56

made a huge mistake there . Yeah

14:59

, so that's how I would see it in terms of looking

15:01

at those metrics , that we would try to move

15:03

.

15:05

Yeah , i mean you make a good point . When

15:07

I was at Instructure , you

15:10

know , i mean I only left in January , so it probably hasn't

15:12

changed a lot But we

15:15

had , in North America , well

15:17

over 60% of the market share for both

15:19

universities as well as primary school

15:22

districts , which

15:24

is a good and a bad thing . The bad thing is is we

15:26

had a very compressed target audience right

15:29

to go after . So what was determined

15:31

is all right well , we need to focus more on developing

15:33

countries , developing economies , the

15:35

rest of the world , and we launched a channel for

15:38

the first time with channel partners in

15:40

those places , and so that was

15:42

all in 2022 . And so , to

15:44

your point , whatever we were focused on for

15:47

metrics and strategy , et cetera , in 2021

15:50

, by would have to be right

15:52

, realigned , at least to a degree , to

15:54

these new initiatives that were coming along in 2022

15:57

. Otherwise , if that's what the CRO

15:59

is looking at , if that's what he's being measured

16:01

on , if that's what he's reporting to the board on , and

16:04

we're not aligned to that , then what purpose

16:06

do we have ? You know , i I I

16:09

don't mean any offense to the HR community , but I used

16:11

to tell my team we're not HR And all I meant

16:13

by that is , we don't deliver government mandated

16:15

trainings or industry trainings

16:17

or security trainings right

16:19

. Anytime we ask our constituents

16:21

to step away from their selling or their customer

16:23

success work , we have got

16:25

to be reasonably sure that

16:27

, and the leadership team that

16:29

what we're asking them to do is going to make them

16:31

better . And without metrics , how

16:33

do you do that , right ? So

16:36

let's start with talking about

16:38

the ideal , and what

16:40

I mean by that is there is

16:42

some really great tech out there

16:44

that lets us start to measure

16:46

this sort of thing . So

16:48

I'd love to hear from you , right , how do you be proactive

16:50

with your tech stack ? What have you found useful ? And

16:53

then we'll kind of go from there .

16:54

Yeah , well , i mean , if we're talking tech stack

16:57

I'm not a massive tech

16:59

person , right . I mean , i think we use that

17:01

to inform what it is that we do But I think we

17:03

are the , we are the creative part that

17:05

tags on to the binary , right ? So

17:08

I think , realistically , i'd be looking at

17:10

my CRM Again if we were looking at those metrics . You

17:12

know what are conversion rates looking like , all

17:14

these , all these things . So I think you have to start with the baseline

17:16

of where we are . So I think , hopefully

17:18

, most people listen and have some form of

17:22

CRM by 2023 . But

17:24

I'd start there . Depending

17:26

on , you know whether you do it yourself or whether you're

17:30

a WIS . If you work with your Revox team , you know

17:32

the amount of touches it takes to get a meeting . You can go super

17:34

granular , right . Or you know which channel is working

17:36

best for you for booking meetings , all the way to

17:38

how many . Once you get into the sales

17:40

cycle , how many days are you ? you know in

17:43

each stage , how , how , what's your conversion

17:45

rate by stage ? What's your ICP

17:47

? Look it . Does your ICP of who's actually

17:49

bought match what you're telling people ? it is ? you know like

17:51

something fundamental like that right .

17:53

Yeah , right , right , right . Yeah , And we're

17:55

laughing but but it doesn't always right .

17:57

I mean , we're laughing , but it's sometimes that's a problem

17:59

, right , Yeah , But also it changes

18:01

right , especially over the last 12 to 18 months

18:03

, when the market's completely changed . It can absolutely change

18:05

. So I would start there . Firstly , you need the

18:07

baseline of any sort of metric And

18:10

then probably my two goals . My

18:12

two ones I would focus on is the conversational

18:14

intelligence tools . I think that's where you can actually

18:16

see the reality of what's what's happening

18:19

So you can see as you're trading or people

18:21

using the message you know they're using the training . If

18:24

you've got things like scorecards in there , i think

18:26

that's a fantastic way to

18:28

get a benchmark , but also to be proactive

18:30

. For example , when I was at my previous company

18:33

, we used a conversation intelligence tool

18:35

that gave us salesforce reports . So

18:38

what happens is based on the scorecards . We

18:40

asked managers to score one

18:42

call per rep per week And this

18:44

was by role and stuff like that . So

18:46

we had three different roles there And what the

18:48

agreement that we had with the managers were

18:50

. So it was a scale of one to five . So

18:53

we would check it . As the enablement team , we had an agreement

18:55

with the managers . Anyone that was three or below , we

18:57

would look at what the skill gaps were

18:59

. Anyone who was , you know , like four

19:01

, four average of four above , we would

19:03

look at them for best practice . So again , you've

19:05

already got things they're without actually having to dig

19:08

. And if we look at that and again

19:10

like , depending on the , the tool that you have , you have

19:12

like initiative boards or ways

19:14

to track , you know , different parts of the sales

19:17

cycle and stuff like that , i'm a huge believer in conversational

19:19

. If I could only have I'll be very honest , if

19:22

I could have one tool for

19:24

it just as an enabler , it would only be

19:26

conversational intelligence . If I had to pick one .

19:29

Yeah , i don't think you're overstating that . In my

19:31

experience , that is probably the biggest

19:33

leap forward in

19:36

being able to measure leading indicators

19:38

. Well , i guess you could call them leading or lagging

19:41

. I'm referring to them as leading in this sense . Say , you're

19:43

rolling out a new methodology , right , and

19:45

how do you , as you mentioned this , how

19:47

do you start to get a sense of it's being adopted ? Well

19:50

, pre conversational intelligence

19:52

, some of the tools we have . We

19:54

would use customer surveys that we were already doing , win

19:56

loss surveys , things like that And we would start to work

19:58

in some questions to find out if the experience

20:00

was being elevated the way that we expected

20:02

. But now you don't have to wait for that . Right

20:05

, the CI tools I've worked with , you

20:07

can build in tags , so that's listening

20:09

for keywords , key phrases , that

20:11

sorts of things that the new methodology should

20:14

be bringing into the conversations

20:17

, and so , as you said , you're going to have that . You

20:19

can score people , you can get in front of it . So

20:22

, yeah , i agree with you . Now , what

20:24

if someone just right

20:26

now is not going to get the budget for that ? What

20:30

have you found , or what have you done along with

20:32

that ? something like a CI tool

20:35

to still have a competency

20:37

framework and be able to measure things

20:39

.

20:41

It definitely makes it more difficult , or by more

20:43

difficult I mean more time consuming , because the calls

20:45

are the calls . I think at that point you would either

20:48

I think one of the most interesting things with the competency

20:50

framework if you didn't have a tool that could help you do that

20:52

. Yes , you can do it on Excel , you can break it down . Just

20:55

more time consuming . You have to agree with

20:57

the managers and stuff like that . I think

20:59

the first thing to

21:02

do and I think Kate Lewis

21:04

she's got a fantastic story on

21:06

this and I found this with lots of different

21:08

topics you've seen reps and managers , but

21:11

if you were to ask a manager to fill out a

21:13

company's framework scorecard

21:15

on a rep and ask a rep to do it

21:17

very rarely are they similar- It's

21:19

a fun exercise , though , right It's

21:22

? fun for them , but terrifying for enablement

21:25

right . So , then you've got their version , his version , her

21:27

version , and then some of the truth is somewhere

21:29

in the middle . So

21:31

I think you have to agree on that . And

21:33

what is , i think , one of the

21:36

separate points for any scorecard ? I

21:38

think one of the biggest

21:41

misses that people have is that they

21:43

don't create a scoring rubric . So my

21:46

version of a one is different from yours , and so

21:48

then it almost renders the scorecard obsolete

21:50

. So I think I would look at that . You

21:53

know the competency framework . I would still create

21:55

the competency framework by hand and go through it that

21:57

way . But then I think from there you just have

21:59

to get in the trenches and understand . Like I've

22:01

worked at companies probably most companies

22:03

I've ever worked at previously , even as a sales leader

22:06

, but the vast majority of sales

22:08

people the

22:10

biggest thing they miss out is the

22:12

impact and the need , and then just what they

22:15

do , struggle to get the value . So

22:17

then , even just through , anecdotally right

22:19

, or even if you can't do it as an enablement , if you go

22:21

to like a sales leader that you believe in and ask them

22:23

to look at their team , i think , yes , it's

22:25

a lot more subjective , but it gives you

22:27

some variation of a

22:30

way forward . Again

22:33

a little bit too much in the gray

22:35

area for me . But again , if you don't have the budget , you can

22:37

really only do what you can do and I think that's how I'd still

22:39

. I'd just try and like go about

22:42

that and I'm already been three fashion . I don't know that it changed

22:44

my approach , to be honest .

22:46

And I agree , as

22:48

you said , i've been around a little bit

22:50

longer , which is a really nice way of saying I'm old

22:52

, so I appreciate that . But

22:54

before the tech right , we did , we

22:56

found ways to measure . But , you're right , it was

22:58

very manual . Right , it was in spreadsheets , i

23:01

remember , and it was effective . But I remember it's doing a company

23:03

framework . Once it was all in Excel , as you said , right

23:05

, and we broke down what are the skills needed by each

23:08

stage of our sales process , and then we went through and had the manager

23:10

. Yeah , very manual , but

23:12

it can be done . And that's really the only takeaway that I wanted

23:14

people to have is not to be discouraged or feel

23:17

like they can't start to move into a

23:19

strategic direction without a budget

23:21

. So that was the

23:23

big thing I wanted everybody to be comfortable with . So

23:25

another thing that anybody can do that doesn't

23:27

require tech is how

23:29

they talk about the

23:32

enablement function , how do they brand the

23:34

team , how do they

23:36

manage the perceptions ? internal brand

23:38

management , in my experience , is critical , and

23:42

do you agree ? and what advice would you give

23:45

to people about crafting

23:47

the right narrative ?

23:49

Yeah , i think this is probably one of the biggest

23:51

things I hear enablers talk about

23:53

, to be honest , in terms of that credibility piece

23:55

of being able to speak to salespeople , sales

23:57

teams or the Beal and

23:59

Endo , the CRO , and

24:02

I think the thing is it's a chicken and egg conversation

24:05

for me , right ? Either you've been called a cost

24:07

center and you need to change the mind internally

24:09

, or you're about to be called a cost

24:11

center , whether it's three , six , nine , 12 months down

24:13

the line , and you have to get out in front of it . I

24:15

think the only way that you can kind of do that depending on how

24:18

close you are to the sun in terms of how

24:20

close you are to the CRO but

24:22

someone has to be having that conversation with

24:24

them and be like look , this is where we are right

24:26

now . We're fighting fires

24:28

, or we're constantly being . we're order takers

24:31

, right . We're constantly being given things to do

24:33

, and then we never hear about it , or it's not

24:35

even being reinforced by managers where

24:37

we'd like to be . And again , it's a

24:39

watch in it for the CRO , right . You've

24:42

got to almost do a sales pitch to them and

24:44

you want to get them on your side And be like this is why

24:46

we want to be involved . If

24:49

you allow us , maybe

24:51

that's too submissive of a term , but if you get us

24:53

involved , then this is the impact

24:55

that we can have , for if we work together

24:57

, we can help influence these things that are important

25:00

to you . And I think one of the biggest things is language

25:02

. right , you and

25:04

I have a somewhat similar

25:06

past and we both came from sales leadership into enablement . So

25:10

I think that , again , i always refer to

25:12

that being my superpower , but also

25:14

my kryptonite at times . right , because

25:17

on the superpower side is , i know , like , if you look at

25:19

the sales velocity equation from the point

25:21

of view of an enabler , right , when I was

25:23

a sales leader , my stick was to go into companies

25:25

that were failing and turn them around . And

25:28

what do you think ? what I looked at , i

25:30

didn't know it was called the sales velocity equation , but it

25:32

was essentially the same thing , right ? How much

25:34

is in the pipeline ? What's the

25:37

percentage ? So the conversion percentage

25:39

, stuff like that . So if you can start speaking

25:41

in those terms and you

25:44

almost get the back

25:46

, for me , you need to get the buy-in from the CRO

25:48

first and foremost , and that almost gives you the be

25:51

able to give you the gumption to push back on other

25:53

sales leaders ago And to

25:55

give you an example when I first joined my first job in enablement

25:58

, one of the first things I was asked

26:00

to do by a rep was to add a logo to a

26:02

slide , to a pitch deck . And I was

26:04

like what ? And

26:06

I was like well , i was like enablement is new to me

26:08

. Is that really my job ? Because that's not

26:10

what I thought Plus

26:12

it's really lazy .

26:14

That's a sales rep . I mean , come on , That's

26:17

very difficult .

26:21

But again , where I was before I joined Starbase , we went

26:23

on a tremendous journey over a shop . The

26:26

time we matured as an enablement function exponentially

26:29

. in the space of 18 months we

26:31

matured to the level of the

26:33

team that had been together for three years just because we were focused

26:36

on what we wanted to do . But even within

26:38

that , we had like Q3 of last

26:40

year and we were just fighting fires And

26:42

we looked at that at the end of it and we will never do that

26:44

again . as a quarter first team We wouldn't

26:46

have survived , right , because we'll get so many things . But

26:48

I think when you go back and be the language and

26:51

then towards the end of the year , the question was asked of us

26:53

so what are you doing ? And it

26:55

was a fair question because we started

26:58

here super strategic but we've been pulled in

27:00

so many different directions that we

27:02

had to get back on track . So I think , using

27:04

the language and again I was in a thoughts

27:07

of position that we had like a phenomenal

27:09

tech stack there , So we had every bit

27:11

of data under the sun so we could be like hold

27:14

on , we did this , this happened , or

27:16

in order for us to make

27:18

X amount more revenue here . we need to fix this

27:20

and this is how we can track it . This is how we can do it . So

27:22

I was in a thoughts of position , but realistically

27:24

, as I say , it's a chicken and egg . If

27:27

you've been called across to enter , you

27:30

need to explain what

27:32

needs to change from other people's point of view

27:34

in order for you to help make an impact , and

27:37

if you haven't , you still need to start positioning

27:39

yourself that anyway .

27:40

anyway , because that question is coming , it just is yeah

27:43

it is well , or or they may be

27:45

asking it , you know , behind closed

27:47

doors . So I think

27:49

it's fair that you just assume That

27:51

question is being asked , whether it's being asked of you or not

27:54

. Someone is right And

27:56

and you know especially I

27:58

mean you read a lot of same-brain church , i

28:00

do from Forrester , gartner and others that CFOs

28:03

are becoming more involved in the buying process

28:05

than ever before . So guess what else they're

28:07

becoming more involved in , right , any kind of

28:09

internal Staff costs

28:12

and that sort of thing . And so you need

28:14

to . In fact , the one thing I'll add to that is

28:16

I have found that having a relationship with

28:19

the CFO as an enablement

28:21

leader Also

28:23

pays dividends . Let them know what

28:25

you're working on , make sure that they're aware of the

28:28

enablement roadmap , make sure They're aware of the enablement

28:30

measurements and successes and

28:32

that sort of thing . I I Just

28:34

just another , just my two cents that I have found that

28:36

you know if you're in , if you're in a company where you can do that

28:38

, it will just pay that benefits back

28:40

. So how

28:43

do someone listening they

28:45

recognize what you're saying is as Something

28:48

they need to do , any any

28:50

final , you know recommendations to them . How

28:52

do they go about ? You know

28:54

changing . So so start talking about it more

28:56

, like the sales leaders do . I think that's really , really

28:59

solid advice . And and Actually

29:02

I'm gonna back up here and ask you any questions What if

29:04

the enablement Person did

29:06

not come from a sales background like you and I ? how

29:08

can they start to learn to

29:11

think and communicate in

29:13

the terms that the sales leaders do ? Because

29:16

, because maybe you and I take some things for granted , some sales

29:18

, long-term granted , because we grew up in it But how

29:21

can someone learn that ?

29:22

I think we have an unlimited

29:24

access to information right now . So

29:27

again , you've got something that most people have as a

29:29

destination website now in LinkedIn . So

29:31

you've got some great sales leaders out there that'd

29:34

be worth following . You've got the likes of John Barrows , again

29:37

, depending on what it is you're looking for . You've got people like Morgan

29:39

Ingram , who you know . They They're on

29:41

the top of funnel type stuff

29:43

. But I would say probably there's

29:45

one book in particular That

29:47

I would recommend to people , and it's by a chap called John

29:49

McMahon . I don't know if you're familiar with him . He's like

29:52

taking things , the CRO , it's

29:54

taking the most amount of companies public , like snowflake

29:56

and sprinkler and all these types of companies . There's

29:59

a book called the qualified sales leader , and

30:02

that's good . It's a fantastic book for sales leaders

30:04

never , but for us as enablers , it's

30:07

. It almost gives you a blue , a blueprint

30:09

, an ideal sort of unicorn of

30:11

what a sales leader should look like , how they should be , what

30:14

sort of questions they should be asking the team . You

30:16

know how they should be coaching the team like what does

30:18

a pipeline sound like ? and it's , it's , it's . It's

30:20

a great book . It's not

30:23

told as a novel , but you can read it as a bit of a story

30:25

in the process . I like those . Yeah , it's

30:27

great . I mean I've recommended

30:29

to so many people And

30:31

also , you know what he's doing . He's taking

30:33

quite a few well .

30:35

Most importantly , it's not theory for this guy

30:37

.

30:38

What was his first ?

30:38

name again , john John McMahon

30:41

and qualified sales leader . I've made a note

30:43

for myself because I haven't .

30:44

I'm not familiar with it and Brilliant

30:47

book , i think , get involved in some conversations

30:49

, going , sit into meetings , trying , if you can

30:51

get along to forecast meetings , going see what people

30:53

will care about what they're in . That make the document

30:55

on that . Could that could tell you what not to do as well as

30:57

you want to do . Yeah , that's absolutely fine

30:59

. And but yeah , i think you

31:02

just you've just got to , even

31:04

though you're not a sales either

31:06

, you've kind of got to be a scholar of sales . You

31:08

just that's my opinion .

31:09

I like that . Scholar of sales .

31:11

Yeah , you can have to be like one of the favorite

31:13

, my favorite things that someone has ever called

31:15

me is sales Wikipedia . There's a sales director . I

31:17

worked with her . I pride myself on that because I genuinely

31:20

love the profession of sales . I

31:22

genuinely love it . Yeah , i found my , my

31:25

second passion in the neighborhood And

31:28

but Yeah

31:30

, i think you just have to be a scholar of sales . You have to understand

31:32

What is top of funnel , what does it mean

31:34

? Like , when you say conversion rates , i

31:36

say like a simple thing to look up is the sales velocity

31:38

equation . It's not simple to to execute

31:41

on , but it's simple enough to understand . But

31:44

that's , that's what I would go . I think

31:46

you just have to again , just just just

31:48

learn , right .

31:50

Yeah , i agree , yeah

31:52

, i think the important thing that I'm

31:54

hearing you say , though , is the The

31:56

start . today , Do

31:59

what you can with what you have today

32:01

. Don't put it off , because

32:03

the thing I've noticed is is , if you

32:05

start aligning to strategy

32:08

and communicating , that , your

32:10

chances of getting those other resources or additional

32:13

team members down the road go up exponentially

32:15

Right . And so , again , it's just one more reason

32:17

Don't wait till you have more . Start

32:20

now with what you have and build .

32:22

Thank you , yeah well , i think , i

32:24

think , if you can , you can use your impact

32:27

that you have had and you think you'll have to

32:29

as your , as your business case for this tool

32:31

, for this extra headcount for this

32:33

that you say , like , well , if we , if our

32:35

target is 10 , you know , 10

32:37

percent on , you know , conversion

32:41

rate or close rate , and we push that up , that means

32:43

10 million to the business . For

32:46

, in order for me to do this , i need a headcount And that's gonna

32:48

cost me X amount of thousands of dollars

32:50

. Right , thousands of pounds . That's that's

32:53

your business case , right , that's what it is . But if you

32:55

base on , if you basically based on impact

32:57

rather than I would really like this , then you're more

32:59

like it's already a more robust anyway , you might

33:02

know you still might not win . However , like

33:04

you're , you're betting the hook to suit the fish

33:06

there . Right , they care about the outcome . So

33:08

, right , talk to them about the outcome and why this will

33:11

help me meet that outcome .

33:12

That's , that's fantastic advice , thank you . Before

33:15

we wrap up , i'd like to give you a chance to just

33:17

step away , maybe , from enablement even it's

33:20

up to you And and just share some life experience

33:22

. And so the setup is

33:24

you've been given the gift of time travel . You're

33:26

allowed to go back and any younger version

33:28

of yourself It doesn't matter when in your life

33:31

But but you can only coach yourself in one

33:33

area . What do you most wish

33:35

you'd understood earlier that you'd focus on So

33:39

this might , this might be overly vulnerable

33:41

for me .

33:42

However , i'm gonna go with patience

33:45

And

33:47

the reason for that is I've always been in a hurry

33:49

and I've probably not stopped to enjoy . I've

33:52

always looked back to enjoy . I've

33:54

been a chronic overachiever , chronic over

33:56

worker . I'm

33:59

a little bit sometimes they're like Icarus flying

34:01

too close to the Sun I get such tunnel vision that

34:04

and I think the thing is , as I've got an older

34:07

or , as you and I say , when we

34:09

get to our vintage , more experienced , i

34:11

found that see , can't Certain

34:15

vintage of our life , right , i

34:17

think I found that when

34:19

I focused on work , your

34:21

family life or your health goes , you know , goes

34:23

, you know , becomes less of a priority Just

34:26

by virtue of you giving a hundred and fifty percent

34:28

. And I've suffered from that in the past , not

34:30

not anything major , but just like I

34:33

, have room for everything . Be patient if you , you

34:35

know like , if you can work Not

34:38

quite to the point where you burn out and you still get there . You

34:40

might get there three months later , but

34:42

it seems terrible , but in the grand scheme of things It's

34:46

actually okay , right , because in that other time you could have spent time , your

34:48

family , your kids , you could have gone to the gym , you

34:50

could have eaten better , you could have slept right , all

34:53

of these things . and I've unfortunately found that out the

34:55

hardware a couple of times . So

34:59

I would go back and it's not much of a coach in , it's just

35:01

suppose . settle down , son , i

35:04

have a bit of patience , is the advice . Yeah , all right , i appreciate that

35:06

.

35:06

What a great conversation . I

35:10

think we range from football to Greek mythology , with a lot of solid Enablement

35:15

advice sandwiched in between , so I

35:17

appreciate that . I appreciate your time , kieran . Thanks

35:19

for spending it with us . Thank you , and we also

35:21

always appreciate all of you that have just

35:23

invested some of your time with us . And

35:27

before we go , we want to do a final shout out

35:29

and thank you to our sponsors . A Lego and again , as you're starting to look at your Enablement

35:35

platform needs , please think of a Lego

35:37

and fact . Go out today and register for a demo at a Lego comm slash demo , and

35:39

we'll see you again in two weeks . Thanks for

35:41

joining this episode of stories from the trenches

35:43

for more sales enablement resources .

35:48

Be sure to join the sales enablement society at s e society

35:50

org . That's

35:53

s e s o c i e

35:55

t y dot org .