0:00

Welcome to Rick's Doctor. This

0:11

week, Nicola Thales,

0:13

on Margaret Popement. With

0:18

your hosts, Graham June and

0:20

Calibean. Hello.

0:26

Hello. And welcome to X

0:28

Factor reviewing all the Queen of Prince consorts of

0:30

England from Elizabeth to Prince Philip.

0:33

Today, we're not reviewing a consort, but rather we interviewing

0:35

the historian Nicholas Thales in particular

0:37

about her biography on Margaret Beaufort, who

0:40

was her mother and grandmother of the first

0:42

Tudor Kings, though never Leighs, we shall hear

0:44

queen in her own right.

0:45

Just skip that bit.

0:47

Is it too dangerous?

0:51

Okay. So we are very excited to

0:53

be joined on the podcast today by the author and

0:55

historian Nikolay Thales. Nikolay, thanks very much

0:57

for joining us. Thank

0:58

you for inviting me. It's lovely to be here

1:00

with you.

1:01

So first of all, would you mind introducing

1:03

yourself to listeners in terms of who you

1:06

are and what you do?

1:07

Yeah, absolutely. So I

1:09

am an author and historian. I

1:12

have written three, I guess,

1:14

technically four books I've got a new one coming

1:16

out in the autumn. So I yeah.

1:19

It's writing stuff. So I

1:21

write about Jude a History. My

1:23

first book was Crown of Blood. the

1:25

the Daddy Inheritance of Lady Jane Grey.

1:27

My second book was Elizabeth's rival

1:30

about Letice Knowles, the

1:32

wife of Robert Dudley. And

1:35

my third book was un crowned

1:37

Queen, which is a biopree

1:39

of Margaret Baffett. And

1:42

my soon to be fourth book

1:44

is called all the Queen's jewels fourteen

1:47

forty five to fifteen forty eight.

1:49

power, majesty, and display. And

1:52

that is based on the research

1:54

that I conducted from my doctorate, which

1:57

I did at the University of Winchester. So

1:59

I finished that in at the beginning of

2:01

twenty nineteen and that

2:04

examines the jewelry collections

2:06

of the queens of the walls of the roses

2:08

and the early Tudor queens.

2:11

That

2:11

wasn't well, that's bang on where we are.

2:13

Yeah.

2:13

Exactly. be. Yeah. Perfect fit.

2:17

And you got a podcast as well, which

2:19

sort of looks at that.

2:20

Yeah. So my podcast is called History

2:22

Gems. And that again, as you

2:24

said, that's inspired by my

2:27

love of the History of Jewelry. And

2:29

it's all about jewels that have story

2:31

to tell, which every jewel does.

2:34

So, you know, that's with I

2:38

speak to somebody different in each episode

2:40

and we look at jaws throughout all

2:42

periods of history and in

2:44

all geographical areas.

2:47

So so yeah, that's that's been great

2:49

fun to do as well. Now

2:51

for us today, we love to talk

2:53

to you about Margaret Beaufort. And

2:56

rather than me, just sort of saying who she

2:58

is, could you give us a quick, which is obviously the

3:00

hardest question for this? This sort of thing is that

3:02

quick introduction, to who Margaret

3:04

Beaufort is, particularly with someone like Ali in mind

3:06

who does struggle with his Beaufort

3:08

sand of Amjuez. And it's Margaret's.

3:10

There's too many of those. Yeah. I know.

3:12

There are a lot

3:13

of Margaret's. It is really confusing. So

3:15

I do you know what? Even when I'm talking about

3:17

her, sometimes I have to run it through my

3:19

head mentioning, like, who is this augment.

3:22

Margaret Bafford, in essence,

3:25

is best known as being the

3:27

mother of Henry the Seventh, the

3:29

first Tudor King, And

3:31

she was also the great granddaughter

3:34

of John of Gaunt who was

3:36

the of Edward III.

3:38

So she was a woman with royal

3:40

connections and royal blood

3:43

who was very conscious of this

3:45

throughout her life. And, you know,

3:47

some would say that she was the founders

3:50

of the Tudor dynasty. So

3:52

with that in mind, perhaps should

3:54

be better known and remembered

3:56

than she is.

3:58

What led you to writing about her?

4:00

It was actually my editor's idea.

4:04

It

4:04

was pushed to us. Oh,

4:06

yeah.

4:07

Sort of because I had

4:09

looked at Margaret when

4:11

I was studying for my doctorate, which

4:14

even though Margaret wasn't a queen,

4:16

even though she actually, in some ways, behaved

4:19

just that she was a queen, hence the title of

4:21

my book. I

4:23

was using her when I was studying my

4:25

doctorate as a point of comparison because

4:28

for some queens like Elizabeth

4:30

Woodville, we don't have a lot of evidence about

4:32

their jewelry collections, whereas Margaret,

4:34

there was a lot of evidence. So

4:37

so that's sort of how I became aware of

4:39

her. And then my

4:41

editor after I'd finished writing

4:43

Elizabeth's rival at the end of

4:46

twenty seventeen. My

4:48

editor had said to me, I'll have Mark

4:50

Wafford. And I actually

4:52

had another back in mind about time,

4:54

but she my assistant asked me

4:56

to go away and write a list of pros and

4:58

cons to each book. So as you

5:00

can imagine, I had a huge list of prose

5:02

for the books that

5:03

I really wanted to write. Mhmm.

5:04

And then maybe two or three for

5:06

more papers. And my

5:09

answer came back and said, Yeah. I've

5:11

spoken to everybody at publishing

5:13

house about it, and it's a

5:15

unanimous decision,

5:16

Margaret Bay what it is. Wow. But

5:21

it was it was actually really good. I'm

5:23

glad that it works out that way

5:25

because when I came to look at

5:27

her, I found that there was

5:29

actually far more to her than

5:31

what I originally thought and

5:33

I really enjoyed having the opportunity

5:35

to research her life and tell

5:37

her story.

5:39

Why how come there

5:40

was no evidence for

5:41

Elizabeth Woodfills? jewelry. Is that

5:44

just because she was more obscure to

5:46

start with? So then I mean, are these

5:48

inherited collections usually they have?

5:50

Quite

5:50

often there inherited collections. Yeah. And

5:52

that's right. So, I mean, it just it just

5:54

sort of depends. It could be it could be the

5:56

case that there was more evidence

5:58

and that it no longer survives. Because

6:00

if you look at Margaret of Anjou who

6:02

came before Elizabeth Woodville,

6:04

we've got quite a lot of evidence

6:06

about her dual collect so

6:08

sometimes it can just be the case that

6:11

things haven't survived or

6:14

or, yeah, maybe that it wasn't recorded in

6:16

the first place. It's difficult to

6:18

say, but it's the same for which

6:20

is the third queen and Neville. We don't

6:22

really know well, we don't know much about her in

6:24

general, but even less about

6:26

her jewelry collection. So,

6:28

yeah, it's it's

6:30

luck of the draw sometime. Right.

6:32

What

6:32

does Margaret jewelry collection

6:35

tell us about her. Oh

6:36

my gosh. It tells

6:38

us that she was a woman who

6:40

had so much material wealth

6:43

that had those or I mean, everything

6:45

in her house was made of gold

6:47

or silver or silver girl.

6:49

It was all and gem encrusted.

6:52

I mean, we've got an inventory of just

6:54

her chapel play at her Palace

6:56

of Coddie Weston, which was in North

6:58

Hamptonshire. And, I mean, she

7:00

had the most amazing collection

7:03

of, you know, of of clates, of

7:06

cuts gold cups of crucifixes.

7:10

And and then, yeah, we look at her jewelry collection.

7:12

She's got diamond rings.

7:15

she's got a jaw shape like a surface

7:17

tongue. So I think the

7:20

other thing that it tells us about her

7:22

is that contrary to her

7:24

surviving portraits, which show her

7:27

as well, show her in later lives,

7:30

dressed in black, and

7:33

on her knees in prayer, I

7:35

think that the jewelry inventories that

7:37

we have with her show that she was a

7:39

woman who really liked to find

7:41

things in life and who was

7:43

surrounded by luxury

7:46

and wasn't quite as dour

7:48

and serious as she is often

7:50

portrayed. Yeah. because

7:51

that was the word that I was sort of going for

7:54

actually down. And how many of the sense as well, I guess, get

7:56

has a bit of a reputation for that. I never get I don't

7:58

know if it's the same with him that it's maybe is

7:59

later years that

8:01

sort of colors the perception that actually

8:03

there's a lot more sort of vibrancy

8:05

and almost flamboyant going on.

8:07

Yeah. Yeah.

8:08

Exactly. I think Henry

8:10

VII's had a really, really bad press.

8:12

And he does have this reputation

8:14

as being a bit of a miser who didn't

8:16

like to spend money. And as you

8:18

say, I think a lot of that is

8:20

influenced by his behavior in later

8:22

years. But actually, whether

8:25

this is something he inherited from Margaret

8:27

or not. I don't know, but

8:29

I think it's a possibility. I think

8:31

that they were both very aware

8:34

of the need to impress and

8:36

the need to showcase

8:39

magnificent particularly when

8:41

Henry became king and, you know,

8:43

it's a it's a period when

8:46

outward display is of

8:48

the up most important and

8:50

it says a lot about your dynasty,

8:53

you know, the way in which you're

8:55

dressed, the way in which

8:57

you wear your jewels,

8:59

all of that is really important. And

9:01

Henry VII in particular, I mean,

9:03

he was spending thousands and thousands

9:05

of pounds on jewels

9:07

and clothes So he's

9:09

not the the tight

9:11

fisted monarch that he has often been

9:13

portrayed to be. And as

9:15

I say, it wouldn't surprise me if that was something

9:17

that he had certainly

9:18

learned in part from his mother.

9:21

What will the she born into though?

9:23

Like was she a significant person when

9:25

she was born? What how important was

9:27

she as a both daughter?

9:30

She She

9:30

was in

9:33

in the whole context of

9:36

the fifteenth century, she

9:39

was a a member of them were all

9:41

family. So, I guess, in in that

9:43

sense, she was important. And

9:45

perhaps more so given that at the

9:47

time that she was born

9:49

in fourteen forty three,

9:51

Henry VI didn't

9:53

have a child of his own.

9:56

So I guess you could say that

9:58

Margaret was a potential

9:59

heiress to the throne at the time

10:02

of her birth. She

10:04

had quite an unsettled

10:07

start in life because she

10:09

was literally just a

10:11

few days away from her first

10:13

birthday when her father John

10:16

Bauchner the Duke of Somerset

10:18

died. And there

10:20

are some hints in

10:22

contemporary sources that he

10:24

died at his own hand.

10:26

because of this military campaign

10:28

in France that he had been a part of that

10:30

had ended in his

10:32

disgrace. But

10:35

Margaret, by reason of his death,

10:37

was left a very wealthy

10:39

heiress. And, you

10:41

know, with no male protect sector.

10:44

That was hugely significant. And

10:47

it wasn't long before Margaret

10:49

was made the award

10:51

of William De la Paul who was

10:53

the Earl and then the Duke of

10:55

Suffolk who was Henry VI's great

10:57

favorite. So even from

10:59

a very very early age,

11:01

there were men around her who were

11:03

trying to cover her fortune.

11:06

And I think that that's really

11:08

where her significance lies at

11:10

this time is the fact that she

11:12

had a lot of wealth

11:14

in terms of property and

11:17

there were many men who were eager

11:19

to secure that on

11:21

behalf of their their heirs, which

11:23

was the hope of of William

11:25

Della Paul who betrothed Margaret

11:27

to his son and then married her

11:30

to his son. It was a

11:32

marriage of words only and

11:34

know, they're children. They and they were

11:36

children. They're only, like, six years old at

11:38

this time. So,

11:42

yeah, Suffolk actions were an

11:44

attempt to secure his son's

11:46

future really by securing

11:49

Margaret's wealth for him. But

11:51

that that didn't really work out

11:53

in the end because Margaret's

11:56

marriage was then later dissolved

11:58

by Henry VI before it

11:59

had a chance to be consummated. So

12:02

what

12:02

is her relationship, Henry, the safe?

12:04

So they oh, gosh. You know, this is

12:07

one that I always have to

12:07

think I always ask wearing this.

12:10

their life. I think I'm I'm correct

12:12

to say that they are cousins.

12:16

Not not first

12:18

cousins, but they are yeah. They are

12:20

related by blood, but she's that gang.

12:23

She's that gang. Yeah. She is very much

12:25

that gang. And then later, Henry

12:27

will say becomes her brother-in-law when

12:29

she marries as her second

12:32

husband, Henry's

12:34

half brother Edmond Tudor.

12:36

So then, yeah, the the

12:38

links between them are strengthened

12:40

with that marriage.

12:41

So when she married Edmond

12:44

Tudor, is that Is

12:46

that for Edmund Tutor a

12:48

big step

12:49

up? Or is it a good marriage to Margaret

12:51

as well? Because obviously Henry VI

12:53

is the one pushing it.

12:55

Yeah. It's I suppose it's

12:57

it's

12:57

good in both senses to

12:59

be fair because it's it's great

13:01

for Edmund because Henry

13:04

VI was really

13:04

fond of his half siblings,

13:07

and just the Tudor and

13:09

Edmund Tudor. And by

13:11

marrying his one

13:13

of his brothers to Margaret

13:15

who, as I said, was a wealthy

13:17

heiress and a wealthy heiress

13:19

of royal blood. he was

13:21

doing pretty well to

13:23

secure Edmund's future.

13:25

But for Margaret as well, you

13:27

know, to be married to the king's

13:29

half brother that bought

13:31

prestige with it.

13:34

No no wealth as such because

13:37

you know, well, unless Henry

13:39

chose to stay extra

13:41

lands and and property and whatever on them.

13:43

But, yeah, it it worked

13:45

it worked pretty nicely for both sides,

13:47

but particularly so for Edmunds.

13:51

And that is why Edmund

13:54

was so eager to

13:56

consummate his marriage with Margaret

13:58

so early because we don't

14:00

know exactly how old Edmund

14:02

Tudor was the time of his marriage to

14:04

Margaret, but somewhere in

14:06

his mid twenties. And Margaret

14:08

at this time is twelve years

14:10

old. So she

14:12

is legally old enough

14:14

to live and co habit

14:16

with a husband. But generally,

14:19

even in the fifteenth

14:19

sense, tree.

14:21

the

14:22

Punctimation was frowned

14:25

upon at that

14:26

age and generally many contemporaries

14:29

chose to to wait a bit

14:31

longer. But

14:32

Edmund was so eager to

14:34

secure an interest in

14:36

Marlboro's inheritance through

14:38

consummation and producing

14:40

hopefully a child that that

14:42

just wasn't an option for him. And

14:45

he insisted on contemplating

14:47

their marriage immediately. It's

14:50

not a

14:50

good look for Edmund. Is it even the motivations

14:52

aren't that aren't that noble?

14:55

No.

14:55

No. It's not a good look for Edmund.

14:57

saying No. I mean, it's absolutely it's

15:00

horrific by modern day standards.

15:02

Let's face it. It's just horrendous

15:05

But even by contemporary standards, you

15:07

know, it's it's it's not

15:09

looking great either really. And we

15:11

know also that made worse

15:13

by the fact that Margaret was

15:16

hugely underdeveloped physically

15:18

and contemporaries remark on the

15:20

fact that she was very slight

15:22

and small of personage. So

15:25

she was a child. So,

15:27

I mean, that just makes it even more

15:30

horrific. Yeah.

15:32

because

15:32

when in this series, we're doing otherwise,

15:34

we're doing the cons to England.

15:36

And there, you know, have been a number that

15:39

have married at that sort of age

15:41

or younger. But usually, I put in the

15:43

caveat that wouldn't have been

15:45

consummating the marriage at that point. They're

15:47

married, but it will be years before actually anything

15:49

happens. Even going back to I think

15:51

John, you know, he married this, basically, child prior,

15:53

but it's suggestion is there is a

15:55

delay before any children. Mhmm.

15:57

So, I mean, you said

15:57

said he's very keen to secure

16:00

and air. But why why is it

16:02

so urgent? Like, why couldn't he have waited

16:04

a few years? Is it because everything's so

16:06

unstable at that period? Or does it just tell us

16:08

something about his character potentially

16:10

that he does that?

16:11

Yeah. I think it does say something about

16:14

his character. I mean, yes,

16:16

the the period. So This

16:19

is fourteen fifty five

16:21

when Margaret and Edmond Tudor are

16:23

married. So it is the year

16:25

that the first Battle of the

16:27

Wars of the Roses is

16:29

fought to the first battle of Saint

16:31

Albans. So it is a

16:33

period of political turmoil and

16:35

political unrest and

16:38

Henry VI has only

16:40

in, you know, fourteen fifty

16:42

three, finally obtained

16:45

a male heir in the form

16:47

of Prince Edward, but

16:49

of course he's a baby at this time.

16:52

Henry's house his mental health is

16:54

is very fragile, of course, at this

16:56

time. So there were

16:58

there were there had even been some

17:00

whispers that Henry had

17:02

considered making his

17:05

sorry. His tudor half brother

17:10

potentially some kind of air to the

17:12

throne. So that may have

17:14

partially influenced Edmund's

17:16

decision to to push ahead and and

17:18

consummate this this marriage.

17:20

But I think, really, it was just a

17:22

way of trying to secure his

17:24

own you know, interests so

17:26

that nobody could come along and

17:29

annull or dissolve his marriage

17:31

with Margaret on the ground terms

17:33

of non consummation in the

17:35

same way. And this is why

17:37

Margaret's marriage to the

17:40

son of William Della Paul was so

17:42

easily dissolved because it hadn't

17:44

been consummated, whereas

17:46

if you have consummated a marriage, it's much

17:48

harder to break that contract.

17:50

left then. So I think it was a

17:52

way of Edmund trying to

17:53

secure his own interests

17:57

and make sure that, yeah, he was

17:59

going to be

17:59

well looked after. Oh, dear.

18:02

Oh, all

18:03

of that is a cover for just a bad bad

18:06

man. Well, I yeah. Well,

18:09

it's quite interesting. What

18:10

I think is quite interesting is

18:12

that later after Edmund died

18:15

is that when Margaret made her

18:17

original whale, she originally stipulated

18:20

that she wanted to be buried next to

18:23

Edmund. Oh. And that's

18:25

something that I think quite interesting, but

18:27

I think also that maybe that is

18:29

done with the benefit of

18:31

knowing what happened after in

18:33

terms of knowing that

18:35

she and Edmund had created

18:37

the first Tudor King of England.

18:40

So I don't think that we can say a great

18:42

deal about or we can

18:44

say a great deal about Margaret's feelings

18:46

towards Edmund from that. And she changes

18:48

her mind later anyway, and she's not

18:50

bode with Edmund. But, yeah,

18:52

it's difficult to ascertain exactly

18:56

what the nature of their

18:58

relationship was in personal terms. And we

19:00

don't know a great deal about Edmund

19:02

either. So Yeah. I mean, it is

19:04

difficult not to not

19:06

to think of him in a

19:08

negative light because of

19:10

his behavior. Yeah.

19:13

But we just don't know enough about him to

19:16

judgefully. Which

19:16

partly because and probably not too many

19:19

people shedding tears at this point that he

19:21

doesn't actually to see Henry bond does. He's not around to

19:23

very love. No. Yeah.

19:24

That's absolutely right. So

19:26

he died in November

19:29

for fifteen fifty six,

19:31

by which time Mark was

19:33

heavily pregnant with her first

19:35

child and, you know,

19:37

the report are or the suggestions

19:39

are that he died of plague at

19:41

Kamalvan Castle. So

19:43

as you say, at at this time, he

19:45

well, he didn't live to to see his

19:47

son born or the fulfillment of

19:49

his destiny. So is

19:52

that is that fate? Who

19:54

know? Who But

19:56

it's horrifying for Mark, you know, she's sort of sort

19:58

of twelve or thirteen at this point.

19:59

She's

20:00

and I think it's like is it true that people

20:03

sort of often say that birth was particularly horrific,

20:05

but I guess because you said because she's so slight

20:07

and so young. So, you know,

20:09

she's a child with a

20:11

child. and widowed?

20:13

Yeah. Exactly that. It's

20:16

it's a a

20:18

hugely difficult caught time for

20:20

Margaret and, you know, the political

20:22

unrest that's going on just makes it ten times

20:24

worse. So she

20:26

Upon Edmund's death, she sought refuge

20:28

with her brother-in-law, Jasper

20:31

Tudor, at Pembroke Castle,

20:33

which was just a couple

20:35

of miles away from where she'd been living with

20:38

Edmund at Lamphy. And,

20:40

yeah, it's here that in January

20:43

fourteen fifty seven. At the age

20:45

of thirteen, she gives birth to

20:47

a son. And as you say,

20:50

her friend and confessor

20:53

in later life. Bishop Fischer

20:55

who most people know for

20:57

the fact that Henry did had

20:59

him executed he

21:02

says of this time

21:04

that it seemed a miracle that

21:06

at that age and of so

21:08

little a person age anyone should have been

21:10

born at all. And, you know,

21:12

he also talks about the fact

21:14

that it was a a very

21:16

perilous time and

21:18

that that Margaret had

21:20

also narrowly escaped the plague

21:22

from which Edmund had

21:24

died. So it does still

21:26

to paint this this picture

21:28

of the terror and

21:30

the uncertainty that Margaret was

21:33

faced with at this time,

21:35

which I think without doubt we can say that

21:37

that was the most challenging and

21:39

difficult period of her life. And

21:41

the

21:41

walls of the roses is going on.

21:44

Yeah. And the

21:44

walls of the races is going on. So

21:46

it's Nobody's got a clue what's

21:48

going on. It's yeah.

21:50

It's a it's a very very

21:53

difficult time and,

21:55

yeah, poor or moderate. But

21:57

I think well, obviously,

21:59

she survives. She survives. this.

22:01

And I think that it taught her many

22:04

important lessons. And I also think that this

22:06

time in her life really shaped

22:08

her -- Yeah. -- and how

22:11

she came to behave in

22:13

subsequent years. Doesn't have any more

22:15

children. So is that I don't know if

22:17

we could possibly know this, but, like, is that a

22:20

bio surgical thing? Or do you think that's a choice that she

22:22

made or perhaps just just didn't

22:24

happen? Or Yeah.

22:25

I think this is

22:27

something I've pondered long and hard

22:30

for many years.

22:32

And I think

22:33

that

22:36

It's it is difficult to say

22:38

because, you

22:39

know, it's difficult judging any

22:40

sort of medical issue when it's five

22:43

hundred years ago. it's always dangerous

22:45

territory. But my own

22:47

theory, and it is on your

22:49

theory, is that she may

22:51

possibly have made a

22:53

conscious decision not to

22:55

become pregnant again. We

22:57

know that the experience left her

22:59

psychologically scarred and

23:01

that apparent in later years when

23:04

her son is negotiating a

23:06

marriage for his eldest

23:09

daughter her name's sake, Margaret, and

23:12

Margaret urges Henry

23:14

not to allow Margaret's

23:17

Margaret, the younger, to be married

23:19

too early in case, you

23:21

know, the marriage when it comes

23:23

to consummated does her granddaughter some

23:26

damage. So so

23:28

clearly, she bears the emotional

23:30

scars of her own early

23:32

marriage through to later life.

23:34

But I also think that

23:36

it's quite

23:38

interesting that Margaret's

23:41

third husband, Henry

23:43

Stafford, because, yes, she did marry

23:45

twice more, so technically, she could have

23:47

had other children. But there

23:49

are suggestions that Henry Stafford

23:52

had had health problems. And

23:55

even though she and Stafford were

23:57

very happy on a personal level.

23:59

You know, III can't help,

24:02

but but wonder if she

24:05

may have chosen him more

24:07

for or that marriage may

24:09

have been arranged more for, you

24:12

know, the interests of of her

24:14

son in mind rather than anything

24:17

else because she was very sorry.

24:19

He was Stafford did take an interest

24:21

in her son. And and then when

24:23

she comes to make her fourth marriage to Thomas

24:26

Stanley, he,

24:28

like her, has been widowed and he's

24:30

already got children, and that is very much

24:32

a marriage that's made for political means.

24:35

So, yeah, I can't help but feel that

24:37

maybe she was quite

24:40

she selected her future husband's

24:43

very carefully with an

24:45

eye to, yeah, possibly not

24:47

becoming pregnant again. But it is

24:49

in your theory. Gosh.

24:51

Don't

24:52

blame her though. It's a strong theory, isn't

24:54

it? I mean, it's likely.

24:57

Yeah.

24:57

She yeah. She has

24:59

such a difficult time and, I mean,

25:01

yeah, who can blame her and not wanting to

25:03

go through that again. But, yeah,

25:06

who knows? We don't know if if there

25:08

was any physical damage

25:10

that

25:10

was Oh, we can't say.

25:12

So in the end

25:13

of it, possibly, in which sort of Henry

25:15

becomes so much her focal

25:18

point that there was almost sort of no

25:20

other space in her life or

25:22

other children like it feels like her whole

25:24

life, as you can understand, but her whole

25:26

life is you know, than

25:28

him. Yeah. Exactly.

25:30

I think I often say this,

25:32

but I think that Henry

25:35

was the love of Margaret's life.

25:37

And I and I completely agree.

25:39

I don't think that there was really

25:41

any room for another man

25:44

or possibly even another child. We know

25:46

that she loves my grandchildren very

25:48

much and the family meant a great

25:50

deal to her, but I think that

25:54

I think Henry really was the

25:56

center of her universe. And

25:58

I also I think that that is quite interesting

26:01

given that she was

26:03

only thirteen at the time that

26:05

he was born. And,

26:07

you know, also, when

26:09

you consider that they didn't

26:11

spend an awful lot of time together either.

26:15

And by the concepts

26:17

of, you know, fifteenth century. That

26:20

wasn't in itself particularly unusual

26:23

in some respects when you think that children

26:25

would have been noble children would have been

26:27

passed over to a wet nurse

26:29

and a plethora

26:31

of nursery staff to care.

26:33

for them. But of course, the walls

26:35

of the roses has a completely

26:37

different impact on that.

26:40

And who Henry is comes to have a

26:42

completely different impact on that. And

26:44

so it does mean that,

26:47

yeah, Margaret not through

26:50

choice, doesn't see a

26:52

lot of memory at all. And

26:54

I think that when

26:57

Henry eventually does become king.

26:59

The bonds between them

27:01

are really strengthened and

27:03

it becomes apparent just how

27:05

much Margaret has sacrificed for her

27:08

son and just how much

27:10

she adores him.

27:12

And she has often

27:14

been pretty sized for

27:16

being

27:17

too close and too

27:20

overbearing perhaps when Henry becomes

27:22

king. But actually, when you look at

27:24

the context, of it all and

27:27

look at the fact that she she

27:29

didn't see him for more

27:31

than fourteen years. one point. I you know,

27:33

it's hardly surprising that she wants

27:35

to spend all of her time with

27:37

him. So, yeah,

27:39

it's it's there is definitely a

27:41

very strong bond that's forged

27:43

between mother and son.

27:45

And I think it's quite

27:48

a unique bond

27:51

considering a, the period

27:53

into which Henry was born and

27:55

the circumstances of both his and

27:57

Margaret's lives. So do we know

27:59

what

27:59

her ambitions would have

28:02

been for Henry? because it's often

28:04

sort of said that, incredibly weak claim to the

28:06

throne when he becomes king in fourteen eighty five

28:08

and all that sort of stuff. But actually, as you've

28:11

said, mild is of

28:13

effectively real stock. She's from John of Gaul and

28:15

she's related to Henry VI. So

28:17

what would Henry VI potentially have

28:19

been for Margaret's perspective

28:21

in the fourteen fifties?

28:23

I think that he I mean,

28:25

he

28:25

wasn't exactly even

28:28

though the king was his godfather, I

28:30

should've said, he was probably named for Henry VI.

28:32

He was his uncle and

28:34

probable godfather. And But

28:37

I think further than that, he

28:40

wouldn't really have been of

28:43

particular importance aside from

28:45

his position as the king's nephew.

28:47

So he could have expected to

28:49

have been raised, you

28:51

know, in in a a

28:53

life of luxury, I suppose, all the

28:56

time and perhaps

28:58

with a view to playing

29:00

a role at Henry

29:02

VI court as an

29:05

adviser or, you know, whatever role that

29:07

Henry chose to bestow on

29:09

him. So certainly, there

29:11

isn't any truth in the notion that

29:14

which, you know, has been something that has

29:16

been depicted in popular

29:18

culture that from

29:20

the moment of his birth, Margaret

29:22

harbored these ambitions that

29:24

Henry would become king of

29:26

England. There's none of

29:28

that because there would be no

29:30

reason for that. Henry VI

29:32

has his own son and heir

29:34

at that time. And you

29:37

know, he's he's certainly looked

29:39

after his half brothers, Edmund

29:41

and Jasper Tudor, and so there's

29:43

every reason to think that he would have

29:45

done the same for Henry

29:47

Tudor as well given

29:49

the opportunity. But, yeah, of course, as we know,

29:51

it doesn't quite play out like that. Thanks

29:54

to the events of the Wars of

29:56

the Roses. So what's

29:57

Margaret's journey after that?

29:59

She said she didn't

29:59

spend a lot

30:00

of time with Henry because he sent away. And

30:03

then it's actually surprisingly soon

30:05

afterwards that she marries again to

30:07

Henry Stafford, isn't it? So she is she kind of in

30:09

control of her own destiny

30:10

once Edmonton guys. Yeah.

30:12

Yeah. She is really. And this is

30:14

what I think is quite interesting about

30:16

her because she yeah.

30:19

She's widowed by the

30:21

age thirteen with a young child to

30:23

care for, but she recognized

30:26

she was precocious

30:28

enough to recognize the

30:31

situation that she was in because

30:33

she had no, again,

30:35

for another point in

30:37

her life, she had no male

30:39

protector and this was very much,

30:41

of course, a male dominated world

30:43

in which women were

30:47

characterized by the relationships

30:49

with the men in their lives. And

30:51

so Margaret has nobody to

30:53

protect her. So she did

30:56

realize that a marriage was going to

30:58

be the best course of

31:00

action to protect not only

31:02

her, but also her son

31:04

So it's quite interesting here

31:06

that thirteen years old,

31:08

the impetus probably did

31:10

come from her in terms

31:12

of arranging her third marriage. And

31:15

she chose somebody who

31:17

had an affiliation with

31:20

the House of Lancaster, her

31:22

ring family, which was Henry

31:25

Stafford, the second son of the Duke

31:27

of Buckingham. And, you know,

31:29

she also, of course, had

31:31

her own son's interests to

31:33

consider as well, and it was imperative

31:35

that any husband would be prepared

31:38

to take care of Henry as

31:40

well. So it's almost

31:42

a year after

31:44

Henry's birth that Margaret is

31:46

married to

31:49

Henry Stafford in January fourteen

31:51

fifty eight. And we

31:52

don't know exactly what happens

31:55

to Henry Tudor at that point because

31:57

Margaret goes to live with

31:59

Henry

31:59

Stafford at Horn in

32:02

Lincolnshire, which was part of her

32:04

inheritance. And

32:07

it's often said, and I think this

32:09

probably is the case that

32:11

Henry Tudor stayed

32:13

behind at Kenbrook Castle to

32:15

be raised by his

32:17

uncle, Jasper Tudor. I think that

32:19

probably is the case, but we don't know

32:21

a hundred percent for sure. And

32:23

he stayed with Henry Tudor

32:26

and sorry. He stayed with his uncle

32:28

Jasper Tudor until

32:31

Jasper was forced to flee by

32:33

means of, you know, the walls of the

32:35

roses. And Henry then came

32:37

under the guardianship of

32:41

William Herbert, who was a

32:43

great supporter of

32:45

Edward IV. So Edward

32:47

IV had successfully managed

32:50

to topple, Henry VI from the

32:52

throne in fourteen sixty.

32:55

And yes,

32:57

so Henry comes

32:59

into the guardianship of William Herbert.

33:01

He goes to live with Herbert

33:04

at Ragland Castle, and

33:06

we know that Margaret lucky

33:09

enough to be able to stay in touch

33:11

with her son and that she went to great

33:13

efforts to do so. We know

33:15

that she visited Henry

33:17

Rand blend at least once for a

33:19

week. But otherwise,

33:21

all contact between them is is

33:23

pretty fragmented. And

33:26

and then in fourteen seventy

33:28

one in the aftermath of the

33:30

Battle of Chute Spring, Henry

33:34

is forced to flee abroad

33:36

into exile. So

33:38

he goes with his uncle Jasper

33:40

Tudor, and he

33:42

doesn't return again until Well,

33:44

he does return very briefly, but he

33:47

doesn't even set foot on English

33:49

soil in fourteen eighty

33:51

three. He doesn't return again

33:53

to the tree properly until

33:55

fourteen eighty five when the

33:57

battle of Bosworth rages. So

33:59

there's a

33:59

lot of towing

34:00

and throwing, upping and

34:03

downing, very, very brief

34:05

pockets where Margaret can spend

34:07

time with her son And

34:10

in between all of this,

34:12

she is trying to

34:14

navigate her way through

34:16

the walls of the roses. and

34:20

protect herself, protect her

34:22

family, protect their interests. There's

34:24

there's I

34:26

mean, As you know, the walls of the razors

34:29

is usually complicated. One minute, Henry's king.

34:31

The next minute said, Edward's

34:33

king. Henry's briefly restored.

34:35

Then Edward's back. So it's kind of all over the

34:37

place and that is, I think, also

34:40

characteristic of Margaret's life during

34:42

this year. it's

34:44

just all over the place and it is a

34:47

matter of survival.

34:49

I

34:50

i don't

34:51

wanna fall into the trap of

34:54

history where women never

34:56

get a lot of credit. And we've for their actions,

34:58

we weren't we're working hard on sex

35:00

better through this series to to put that right. But

35:02

it's incredible that the the a

35:04

thirteen year old girl or thirteen year

35:07

old person rather can think

35:09

with such sort

35:11

of political clarity about their

35:13

next marriage. Did did did she

35:15

have advisers that were working

35:17

with her that she was close to or anything

35:19

like her like she was alone, but

35:22

how alone? Well,

35:22

say she's got Margaret Heard

35:25

that she she was my from

35:27

what we can tell, she was quite close to

35:29

her mother, Margaret Beechen.

35:32

And, yeah, she also had a

35:34

stepfather as

35:36

well. aligning wells. So it's

35:38

it's very difficult to say because we

35:40

don't know. And it is because of

35:42

the nature of the time that

35:45

women aren't really mentioned as much

35:48

in the sources. And so it's

35:50

quite difficult trying to piece together

35:54

exactly what happened and what

35:56

may have influenced decisions.

35:58

I'm sure that or

36:01

I feel sure that maybe Margaret

36:03

had consulted with her mother and

36:05

her stepfather before making

36:08

this marriage. Perhaps

36:10

even Jasper Tudor had had

36:12

some hand in helping to arrange this

36:14

for her. But it's just difficult

36:16

to know. We just don't know. who

36:19

she was in contact with exactly at this time

36:22

and and how these

36:23

decisions were,

36:25

what concluded. I

36:27

mean, it's easy to like her later character

36:29

makes it easy to imagine that you can just sort

36:32

of reduce that person down to

36:34

miniature thirteen there

36:36

she is. And she's making me say, you know, she's just as bold

36:38

and everything, but amazing,

36:40

still. Yeah. Yeah.

36:42

I mean, yeah, she She

36:46

was an amazing woman.

36:48

And as I said, I think

36:50

very much that these earlier

36:52

experiences in her life

36:54

came to shape her later, behavior, and

36:56

her character.

36:58

So with the

37:00

Edithols being, of course,

37:01

your kiss marker, a

37:04

Lancastrian. He said Stafford as

37:06

well as a Lancastrian.

37:06

So what what does she do when Edward

37:08

IV says? So he said how Henry,

37:12

Tudor, does

37:13

have to go off into exile initially when Edward comes to

37:15

the throne, but he does after Tewkesbury.

37:17

So is Margaret a player at all in the events

37:19

of the fourteen sixties? Or does she kind

37:21

of keeping quiet? What what's she doing

37:23

in that area?

37:24

Yeah. So she she

37:27

very much tried to ingratiate

37:29

herself with the Yorkist

37:31

regime. So which is quite difficult

37:33

for her to begin with because her

37:35

husband Henry Stafford had fought

37:38

for Henry

37:40

VI at the battle of Towton, so that momentous

37:42

battle that sees Edward

37:44

firmly establish himself on

37:48

England throne and Henry Stafford has batched the wrong horse,

37:50

so to speak. But through

37:52

Edward IV's good

37:54

grace is, he is

37:56

pardoned. And Margaret

37:58

and and Stafford basically

38:00

do their best at this time to

38:02

to keep a low profile. And

38:06

to to just be

38:08

seen to bow the knee

38:10

to the enemy. Although

38:12

we do know that very gradually,

38:16

Edward began to I

38:18

don't know if we can say trust Margaret,

38:22

but he certainly

38:23

became more maybe maybe tolerant

38:25

of her. So we

38:27

know that in fourteen

38:29

sixty eight, Edward

38:32

IV came to visit Margaret and

38:34

Henry Stafford at Woking,

38:36

which was a former Beaufort

38:38

property that

38:40

was Margaret's favorite home. So we know that, yeah,

38:42

they hosted a royal visit there.

38:44

And by all accounts, Edward, seems to

38:46

have had quite a nice time. They put

38:48

on

38:49

five good spread from from what the sources tell

38:51

us, and Margaret was very much the

38:54

hostess with the mostettes.

38:58

And then in fourteen seventy, after all

39:00

of

39:00

this, Henry

39:02

VI is briefly restored

39:04

to the throne And,

39:07

you know, this gives Margaret opportunity to spend a bit more time

39:09

with her son very briefly. But,

39:11

yeah, Edward comes back in

39:13

fourteen seventy one In

39:16

April, we see the Battle of Barnet fort.

39:19

And for Margaret, this

39:21

has terrible consequences because

39:24

Henry Stafford this

39:26

time he fights for ed with the fourth at the Battle of Barnet,

39:28

but he was badly

39:32

injured. And he died

39:34

in October, possibly as

39:36

a result of the injuries that had

39:38

been inflicted on him at Barnet. We don't

39:40

really know. Anyway, May fourteen seventy one,

39:42

out of two to three, is thought.

39:44

And this also has

39:46

dire consequences for Margaret because

39:50

Henry the sixth, Sun and Air Prince Edward

39:52

is killed at Chutesbury. And

39:54

in the aftermath of Chutesbury,

39:56

Henry the sixth is probably

39:59

murdered at the in the tower of

40:02

London. And suddenly,

40:04

all of the main Lancastrian

40:07

male figureheads are gone. And

40:09

so this brings Henry

40:12

Tudor and his

40:14

weak claim far

40:16

more to the forefront than he has been until

40:19

now. And so

40:22

according to some

40:24

sources, it's It's Margaret who urges Henry to

40:26

flee abroad for safety.

40:28

Because I'm sorry.

40:31

Edward IV's behavior achieves

40:34

Sbury had shown that he was determined to stamp out

40:36

the House of Lancaster permanently.

40:38

You know, there are reports

40:42

of just how ruthless

40:44

he was towards the Lancastrians in

40:46

that battle. And though

40:48

we know that Henry Tudor

40:50

he did this advice wherever it came from. And

40:52

they've been aiming for France. He

40:54

ended up in Brittany where

40:58

he was basically subjected

41:02

to an a nice kind of

41:04

house imprisonment by Duke

41:06

Francis, the second of

41:08

Brittany with Jesper Touda

41:10

as well. So

41:12

again, Margaret's fortunes have

41:15

turned She's lost her husband. She's on

41:17

her own again, and it's

41:20

at this point, and the house of your growing

41:22

control. So How is she

41:24

going to navigate this

41:26

situation? Well, she decides

41:28

to marry again. And

41:30

again, a sign of her

41:33

pragmatism, I think, is

41:35

she recognizes now

41:38

home that Edward

41:40

IV's claim to the throne is pretty

41:42

pretty solid. It's

41:43

pretty stable. And

41:46

so

41:46

she decide to to marry somebody

41:48

who has close affiliations with the

41:51

House of York, and her

41:53

choice of husband falls

41:55

on Thomas Stanley, who's a member of

41:57

Edward IV's household. And so we

42:00

see over the next few years,

42:02

Margaret really trying to do her

42:04

best to

42:04

initiate

42:06

herself with Edward. And

42:08

I think that this is very much

42:11

an attempt to affect reconciliation

42:13

between, you know,

42:16

herself and and Edward,

42:18

Lancaster and York. But

42:22

all within attempt or sorry,

42:24

with keeping her son's

42:27

safety and well-being you

42:30

know, that's that's very much her priority at this time.

42:32

So was she in after the Battle

42:34

of Chokesby, was she I could see

42:37

how Henry would've been mortal

42:39

danger. But would she have been as well?

42:42

Or or, like, she'd just had her stuff,

42:44

Nick, and be

42:45

on your way.

42:46

she well, she certainly

42:48

wasn't in the same kind of dangerous

42:50

her husband. No. Because she

42:53

hadn't been well. as far as we

42:56

know. Anyway, she hadn't been directly involved in any of these battles. Mhmm. She was,

42:58

you know, she was a woman that nobody

43:00

would have considered her as

43:03

a potential threat to the

43:06

throne. And, you know, her

43:08

behavior during Edward IV's

43:10

first reign had shown

43:12

that, you know, she wasn't a

43:14

threat in her own right, really. She

43:16

was very

43:18

content to keep a low

43:20

profile and and keep herself to herself

43:22

in order to protect her family. So

43:24

there was no reason to think that she wouldn't

43:26

do that again. Does she

43:27

sort of, like, talk about ingratiating

43:30

herself with Edward IV, but it seems

43:32

like does she get close to Elizabeth Woodwell? Do they have

43:34

a friendship or is it just because she's a prominent

43:36

woman at court that she is in the queen's

43:39

household. Did you know

43:40

that's is one of the really

43:43

frustrating gaps that we don't know a great deal

43:46

about. We do

43:48

know that

43:50

Edward the fourth, gradually

43:52

because of her marriage to Lord Stanley,

43:55

we gradually see

43:58

Marlborough. beginning to play a more prominent role at

43:59

court. So when the

44:01

court traveled to Fothering Day

44:04

in fourteen

44:06

seventy six, for the re burial of Edward's of

44:08

York. Margaret is there. She's

44:10

very much a part of that

44:12

ceremony, and the queen is course

44:16

there as well. And then in fourteen eighty,

44:18

when Elizabeth Woodville gives

44:20

birth to her last child, Princess

44:23

bridget. It's Margaret who's given the

44:25

honor of carrying the baby at

44:27

the CRISPR thing. So, you know,

44:29

that's a significant and honor whether we can infer

44:31

from that that it suggests

44:34

any other kind of relationship with Elizabeth

44:36

Woodville. We don't really know.

44:39

We know, of course, that later

44:42

on, Margaret works with

44:44

Elizabeth Woodville

44:46

in fourteen eighty three, but

44:49

Yeah. It it's difficult to to

44:51

say whether whether they got

44:54

on, whether Elizabeth likes

44:56

her, whether she liked Elizabeth

44:58

we just don't really know. So let's say fourteen eighty

45:00

three

45:01

is the year that everything

45:03

changes, like when

45:05

the fourth dies, unexpectedly,

45:07

and then we have printers

45:09

in the tower, Richard III.

45:12

It's become fashionable that if you're not

45:14

gonna say it's Richard, that name

45:16

has sort of become associated

45:18

with it. Is is there anything in

45:20

that at all or is it

45:23

just trying to find a different name, do you

45:25

think? I think

45:26

I love the fact that you sort of said on, yeah, that

45:28

it's become fashionable. Now I think that that's

45:30

actually that that

45:32

is actually just it. It's, you

45:34

know, who else can we blame? Well,

45:36

there's that Margaret David knocking

45:38

around at the science thing. and

45:41

that's that is very much my feeling. I think, you know,

45:44

when I came to this,

45:46

I thought

45:48

I'm gonna just look at all the evidence and see

45:50

where it takes me, and none of

45:52

it took me in Markowitz direction. And I

45:54

think that there's a reason for that

45:57

which is because she wasn't responsible for

45:59

their disappearance. And I

46:02

think, you know, the

46:04

first evidence that we have that links

46:06

margaret with the the disappearance of the prince is is around

46:09

a hundred years or so

46:12

after, you

46:14

know, is in the sixteenth century. Sorry. Sixteenth century,

46:16

seventeenth century. Anyway, it's about a

46:18

hundred years or so after Margaret's death.

46:22

a bit more than that. And I think that that

46:24

in itself is is pretty suggestive

46:28

because

46:28

stand the case

46:30

I feel that if

46:32

she had been

46:35

linked at all, then there would

46:37

have been some whisper of

46:39

it in contemporary reports and there isn't anything.

46:42

So, no, I don't think that

46:44

she had any role

46:46

to play in their disappearance

46:49

course, she does ultimately benefit from it,

46:52

but I think that that is more a

46:54

product of of circumstance

46:56

than than anything else. So

46:59

do

46:59

you think once whatever happens to them happens? But the key thing, obviously,

47:01

is the fact that they're no longer on the phone,

47:03

richer the third is, but

47:06

that is a controversial

47:08

turn of events. So do you think

47:10

that she sees that moment as rather than

47:12

thinking about getting Henry back that she now

47:14

is actually thinking about him on the throne? I

47:16

think yeah. I I actually think that the turning

47:19

point for her came the

47:21

day before Richard's coronation, so

47:23

the fifth of July, fourteen

47:26

eighty three. This is where I am

47:29

convinced that the the change

47:31

in Margaret's mindset was

47:34

triggered because

47:36

we know that on that

47:38

day, Margaret had a meeting with Richard and

47:42

although

47:43

we don't know exactly what was

47:45

spoken about during the

47:46

course of this meeting, although,

47:49

you know, there seems some suggestion that

47:51

she spoke to him about a debt that was owing, but I think

47:53

it's inconceivable that she wouldn't have

47:55

mentioned her son too

47:58

Richard at this point. So, you know,

48:00

shortly before Edward IV's

48:02

death, there had been a

48:05

promise of a pardon for Henry so

48:07

that he could come home.

48:09

And then, of course, that's all thwarted

48:11

or thrown up into the air

48:13

when Edward dies as you say

48:16

unexpectedly, I think that either

48:18

Margaret sorry, Richard refused

48:22

to honor this pardon or

48:24

he said something that made Margaret uneasy

48:27

about Henry's future. And

48:29

I think it was at this point that we

48:32

see, you know, all of the cautious

48:34

behavior that she's shown up until

48:36

now. So all of the

48:38

ingratiating with the house of York.

48:40

It was almost like at this point

48:42

she thought, do you know what?

48:44

I've waited this long and I can't wait any

48:46

longer. I need my son

48:48

with me. And

48:48

I think it's at this point that,

48:50

yeah, her her mindset changes

48:52

and that she very

48:55

quickly becomes involved with

48:58

a plot and

49:00

seat riches and, yeah,

49:03

despise this opportunity. for Henry to become

49:05

king instead. And fortunately

49:08

for her, because of

49:11

Richard's behavior and the

49:14

manner in which she's come to the throne, she's

49:16

able to to gain

49:18

some valuable allies, most

49:20

chiefly in the form of

49:23

Edward the fourth widow, Elizabeth,

49:26

and sees a way that this could work

49:28

out quite well for both of them because

49:31

Wouldn't it be gray for Margaret? If her

49:33

son could marry Elizabeth's

49:36

daughter, Elizabeth of York,

49:38

many believe her to be

49:40

the right for air to the throne after the disappearance of

49:42

Pampers. Hey, this could work out

49:44

brilliantly for everyone. So

49:47

yeah, I think I feel pretty confident that

49:49

we can pinpoint Margaret's change of mind

49:52

down to

49:54

the fifth July fourteen

49:56

eighty three. So

49:57

is she then do you think is she

49:59

the main

49:59

driver in Henry's bid

50:02

for

50:02

the throne at this point? because, obviously, she's the

50:04

one that's actually there in the center of instances, he said Henry's naturally

50:06

in the country. So is she really

50:08

the one that's masterminding what's going on?

50:10

Yeah. I think very much

50:11

so. I think very

50:13

much so. And we know that, you know, she was

50:16

using her physician as a go

50:18

between between

50:20

herself and Elizabeth Woodville. We know

50:22

that the chief of Buckingham became

50:24

involved, and I know there are

50:26

there are different lines of thought

50:28

over weather you

50:30

know, backing him was backing Henry Tudor or

50:33

whether he was actually going

50:35

to back himself and

50:39

and you know how

50:41

Margaret convinced him to become

50:43

involved. We just we don't know the answers

50:45

to that, but one way or another, She

50:47

and Buckingham ended up working together.

50:50

But, yes, I think their Margaret is very

50:52

much the driving

50:53

force at this point. and and,

50:56

yeah, she

50:56

sees this as an opportunity

50:58

for her son and

51:01

perhaps she she genuinely felt that this was the

51:03

only way that Henry would be able

51:06

to return home. I

51:08

think, yes, she also really seized on

51:10

on Richard's pop sorry, unpopularity at

51:13

this time as well

51:15

and and really kind of

51:17

just took advantage of that.

51:19

though So

51:20

Henry the seventh becomes Kingie wins the battle

51:22

of Bosworth Richard the third is killed.

51:25

Obviously, they are finally

51:27

back together again, mother and son, and he is

51:29

now king. So what what happens at that

51:31

point in terms of her status in

51:33

the country, her role in

51:36

Henry's government? So

51:37

her life is really

51:39

transformed and she

51:43

immediately becomes styled and addressed

51:45

as my lady, the king's mother. So she is far

51:48

Elizabeth of York. She is the

51:50

most important woman in

51:52

the realm.

51:54

And she really pushed herself to

51:57

the forefront of events. And this

51:59

is really where comes back to this

52:01

comes back to what I

52:04

would say. earlier about the fact that she has sort of been

52:06

criticized for this and the fact that she's

52:08

always there. But

52:10

I think considering all that

52:12

she's been through and all that Henry's

52:14

been through, it's understandable.

52:16

And I think what's also

52:18

important to remember is that wouldn't be

52:20

there. if him, we didn't want

52:23

her there. So there is

52:25

this very close bond between

52:27

mother and son. Then you know, apartments

52:29

were set aside in all of the rural

52:31

palaces for Margaret. And we know that

52:33

in some of them, so

52:35

including the tower,

52:38

there was even an interlinking chamber between

52:40

Marlborough's rooms and Henry's. So

52:43

they're clearly spending a great

52:45

deal of time together. And

52:48

we also know that

52:49

in the first first parliament

52:51

of Henry's reign, Saint Bathurst'sworth

52:53

is August, first parliament

52:55

is in November, A Margaret

52:58

is declared a thin soul

53:00

or

53:00

a soul person by parliament.

53:02

Whether this is done at her own

53:04

Quest or Henry's own instigation. We don't

53:07

know, possibly a combination of both.

53:09

But this it

53:11

basically gives her independence

53:14

in both a legal and a

53:16

financial

53:17

sense. So to all intents and

53:19

purposes, she doesn't need her husband, she

53:21

would stand me anymore. He served

53:23

it purpose. And they

53:25

do remain on good terms, I should

53:27

say, but in many other

53:30

respects, they they pretty much live separate

53:32

lives and and and

53:34

separate. So Margaret

53:37

really is the most

53:39

powerful woman in the

53:41

land. She's not given an official

53:44

role in government as

53:46

such, but we know, you

53:48

know, contemporaries are talking about the

53:50

fact that If you want anything from the king, then the

53:52

king's mother is the one that you go and speak

53:54

to. She's the

53:54

one with all the influence. And

53:58

we also

53:59

know

53:59

that later on,

54:02

Margaret basically becomes

54:04

Henry's unofficial lieutenant in

54:07

the Midlands. She sets up

54:09

her headquarters at her palace of

54:11

Cauley Weston. And here,

54:15

she basically begins administering justice on Henry's

54:18

behalf and, you know,

54:20

she she listens to all sorts of disputes

54:22

and all sorts

54:24

of cases. You

54:26

know, there are there are people brought before

54:28

her who have been making

54:31

slurs about Henry's parentage

54:34

and his heritage in a

54:36

tavern and culture stuff, for example.

54:38

There are all sorts of things that

54:41

that our Port before Margaret for her to

54:43

judge on. And what's quite

54:46

interesting is,

54:48

again, Henry is allowing his mother

54:50

to do this. and this

54:52

is a role that we haven't

54:54

seen a woman play

54:56

before. So Margaret

54:58

had effectively built

55:00

this new this new role for

55:02

her to play in the political life

55:05

of the Tudor dynasty

55:08

and Henry is more than happy for her to do this.

55:10

So he obviously he obviously

55:12

trusted her and he obviously believed

55:15

that she was a woman of sound and good judgment

55:18

and ability. So

55:20

because Elizabeth

55:20

Woodville is still alive when she's then

55:23

the queen mother. Look, yeah. mother

55:25

of mother of the king. But but then

55:28

Elizabeth Woodville is

55:30

the

55:31

the

55:32

ex queen and mother

55:34

of the current queen. Like, where does the how

55:36

does that work as a relationship between the

55:39

two, very powerful women?

55:41

Again, it's it's just something that we just don't

55:43

really know, but we do know

55:46

that Elizabeth

55:48

Woodville doesn't hang around a court

55:50

for too long because she is again, this is

55:52

sort of debatable and very controversial.

55:55

She's either banished retires

55:58

from court

55:59

to Burman's Eve Abby. So

56:02

just across the river from the tower

56:04

in four fourteen eighty

56:06

seven. And there's been some

56:08

suggestion that this may have been

56:10

because she was involved

56:12

in the Lambert Simnel

56:14

conspiracy to top or

56:16

Henry from the throne.

56:18

There's been some suggestion that

56:20

Henry the Seventh pushed

56:22

her out of the way. and

56:24

that Margaret may have had some hand in that. We

56:26

just don't know really what

56:28

the reasons for that were.

56:31

I suspect that that Henry

56:34

didn't really fancy having

56:36

to financially support

56:38

his own wife, a queen,

56:41

having to support Marlborough and

56:44

having to support a mother-in-law as

56:46

well. So I personally think that

56:48

he probably thought, well, do you know what

56:50

she's had her day. She can we can send

56:53

her off to retirement now. And she'll live

56:55

her, you know, laser in

56:57

a I don't know which she

56:59

doesn't seem lived particularly great life, but we

57:02

don't know much about her her life in

57:04

Burnancy. But

57:06

Yeah. I think that I don't think that there

57:08

really is much of a relationship between

57:11

Elizabeth Woodville and

57:13

Margaret Beaufort at this

57:16

point. but we just don't really know.

57:18

It's like retiring resources.

57:19

It's terrible.

57:23

Hard Queens. Yeah.

57:24

And on top of that,

57:26

I just say we've got the mother of the

57:28

king who isn't technically queen. We've got

57:30

the ex queen who's now the mother of the

57:33

queen, but we also have Elizabeth of

57:35

York who is actually Actually, Queen. Yeah. Actually, Queen. Yeah.

57:37

So what do we know anything about that

57:39

dynamic? The sort of mother-in-law from hell

57:41

potentially is this such influence

57:43

over her son. But is there anything to

57:46

justify that perception? Or I

57:48

don't think so,

57:49

really. I think that a

57:51

lot of that has come from a comment that

57:53

was made by this Spanish ambassador

57:56

who remarked upon the fact

57:58

that Margaret had a lot of influence

58:00

and that at least this of York

58:02

didn't really like it.

58:04

Now

58:04

I think

58:05

that by no means

58:07

with Margaret have

58:10

been the you know, you

58:12

wouldn't have wanted to be in her company at

58:14

all times. I think she was

58:16

overbearing, and I think that

58:18

there would undoubtedly have been times when she got on Elizabeth's

58:20

nerves, and Elizabeth would have

58:22

loved to have shopped her into the

58:24

background. But

58:26

personally, I think all

58:28

the other evidence suggests that Elizabeth

58:30

Reelke and Margaret got along quite

58:33

well together. So they founded a

58:35

chance to chat all together We

58:38

know that they

58:40

worked on

58:41

behalf of

58:44

Margaret's

58:44

eldest granddaughter and namesake Margaret

58:48

to to stop Margaret

58:50

being sent to consummate

58:52

her marriage in Scotland too

58:54

early. So I think

58:56

that there are you know,

58:59

there's more evidence that they got

59:01

along well together than than not.

59:03

We know that Margaret

59:05

sent Elizabeth, New

59:06

Year's gifts, for example. So

59:10

I

59:10

think that actually, the Spanish ambassador

59:13

may just have

59:15

caught the queen

59:16

on an off day where she might have been a

59:18

bit fed up with Margaret. I mean, nobody

59:20

gets along a hundred percent of the time,

59:22

do they? And it's just unfortunate

59:24

I think for Margaret that perhaps that

59:26

one comment on that one day has

59:30

reverberated down the passages

59:32

of time and, yeah, gone some

59:34

way to portraying her as the mother in,

59:36

nor in hell from hell. But

59:38

Yeah. Like I said, I'm sure she would have been overbearing and

59:40

annoying at times, but I

59:42

also think that Elizabeth of

59:46

York was apparently

59:48

very gentle by nature and so would

59:50

have had a lot more patience with

59:53

Margaret than perhaps someone

59:55

like Am Berlin. So,

59:58

yeah, I think

59:59

they really got on quite

1:00:02

well.

1:00:02

Tragically for

1:00:03

Margaret. She she lives or she

1:00:06

outlives her son, whom in the

1:00:08

seventh course Thomas before her, and do we I mean,

1:00:10

obviously, I'm assuming awful for her. Do we have any

1:00:12

anything record

1:00:13

in terms of her reaction to

1:00:15

that and how it affects

1:00:18

her? Nothing nothing

1:00:20

really sort of

1:00:21

solid, but we do know

1:00:24

I mean, she literally when she when she

1:00:26

realized how

1:00:26

unwell Henry was and

1:00:28

that his days were numbered, she

1:00:31

literally dropped everything. to move

1:00:34

into Richmond Palace to

1:00:36

be by his side at this

1:00:38

time. So

1:00:40

she arranges for all of her own belongings

1:00:42

to follow along behind her, and

1:00:44

she just rushes to be by

1:00:47

her son's bedside. So, you know,

1:00:49

her favorite bed that comes along later, that's how, you know,

1:00:51

desperate she is to be with Henry.

1:00:54

And, yeah,

1:00:58

I think I think we

1:01:00

can only really imagine the grief that she would have felt

1:01:02

because there

1:01:04

was only a very

1:01:05

small age gap between

1:01:08

them and, you know, all of

1:01:10

Margaret's life, she

1:01:12

had worked for Henry's

1:01:16

interests. She'd worked to protect him. She'd worked

1:01:18

to instill him as king king of

1:01:20

England.

1:01:20

She'd worked to help him

1:01:23

keep his throne. And so

1:01:27

her devastation at

1:01:29

losing him can

1:01:31

only be imagined. But

1:01:34

we

1:01:34

don't unfortunately have any sort of

1:01:36

documents which tell us exactly how

1:01:38

she

1:01:38

reacts is. The fact that she

1:01:41

out lives hundred and seven course, means that

1:01:43

she is briefly there for Henry the eighth. So do

1:01:45

we know anything about her relationship with

1:01:47

her grandson? It seems

1:01:50

like such contrast of characters in terms of who

1:01:52

Henry VIII becomes. Yeah.

1:01:54

Exactly. And we know Margaret

1:01:58

absolutely adored her

1:01:59

grandchildren. There are the same

1:02:02

payments in her accounts

1:02:04

to present that she was buying for all of them. And we see this

1:02:06

with Henry as well where she

1:02:09

when Henry turned sixteen,

1:02:12

and he was very interested

1:02:14

in jousting. And, you know,

1:02:16

rather than, I don't know, what what do

1:02:19

you get for your sixteenth birthday this day,

1:02:21

like maybe an iPhone or something like that. don't know. Well,

1:02:24

in the

1:02:26

sixteenth century, the cool

1:02:28

thing to have was a jousting

1:02:30

saddle. So it's his grandmother

1:02:32

who buys Henry his first

1:02:34

jousting saddle to mark his

1:02:36

sixteenth birthday. And,

1:02:38

yeah, by all accounts, they seem to

1:02:40

have been quite fond of one another.

1:02:43

And I it's almost it's so weird

1:02:45

how the events kind of play out because

1:02:47

it is almost like

1:02:50

Marlborough. We know that her health was this

1:02:52

time as well. She was in in poor house,

1:02:54

but it's almost like

1:02:57

Henry VIIs. She

1:02:58

seat

1:02:59

discovered that he was going to die and she almost was

1:03:02

like, well, no. I've hang on. I've got

1:03:04

hang on here. My

1:03:06

grandson is seventeen. He's just a couple of months away

1:03:08

from his majority at

1:03:10

eighteen. Someone's got to make sure that this

1:03:12

succession goes smoothly and

1:03:14

that this boy

1:03:16

knows what he's doing and that is

1:03:18

his grandmother because she was

1:03:20

almost like an unofficial region during the

1:03:23

first couple of months of Henry

1:03:26

VIII's reign where she was

1:03:28

kind of organizing everything and

1:03:30

everyone. And

1:03:32

you know, she was she was very much there the heart of

1:03:35

Henry's court in those first

1:03:37

couple of months. And,

1:03:39

you know, in June, So

1:03:42

just a couple of months after Henry the

1:03:44

Seventh died, Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon,

1:03:47

of course his his brother

1:03:50

Arthur's widow, and then

1:03:52

the the couple later that

1:03:54

month in June enjoy a

1:03:58

joint coronation. And

1:03:59

then on the

1:03:59

twenty eighth of June, Henry the eighth

1:04:02

reaches the age of eighteen.

1:04:04

So he's no longer a

1:04:06

minor. He's an

1:04:08

adult

1:04:08

now. And it is almost like it's at this point that Margaret

1:04:11

thinks, okay, job

1:04:13

done. And there's

1:04:16

port

1:04:16

that says that she fell ill of eating a

1:04:18

cigarette at the coronation banquet.

1:04:22

But at again,

1:04:24

we do know that she had had

1:04:26

health issues prior to this.

1:04:28

So who knows? And perhaps her

1:04:30

end was hastened by grief. But just day

1:04:33

after Henry's coronation sorry,

1:04:35

after Henry's eighteenth birthday,

1:04:39

So the twenty ninth of June

1:04:41

fifteen o nine, Margaret dies

1:04:44

at the age of sixty

1:04:46

six. So she had plenty more left in

1:04:48

the tank. It

1:04:48

could have been more. Like the

1:04:50

the who knows, oh, that would have been

1:04:52

great. But

1:04:54

the as

1:04:55

a signet, A signature.

1:04:58

Yeah. It's a baby spawn.

1:05:00

Oh,

1:05:00

yeah. I was gonna say

1:05:01

I'd definitely be a leasing as one, but a baby

1:05:03

spawn I could probably manage. Pick n'

1:05:05

pull up. Yeah. But maybe not a

1:05:08

sixty six year old.

1:05:10

Yeah. Add it add it

1:05:11

to lamprezzo, death by Sigman. Yeah.

1:05:14

There we go. Yeah. It's this buddy river foul.

1:05:18

I know.

1:05:20

So yeah. And she

1:05:22

we know her friend and and Bishop Bishop

1:05:24

Fischer, who's also her competitor.

1:05:26

He says that at Margaret's

1:05:30

death. All

1:05:31

of England had cause for weeping because it was

1:05:33

such a loss, basically.

1:05:36

So

1:05:37

Yeah. She was very

1:05:40

very much mourned by

1:05:42

those who knew her and

1:05:44

hey

1:05:45

who loved her. I

1:05:56

think the one thing that I just really like to highlight

1:05:58

with her is that

1:06:00

there is say much

1:06:03

more to Margaret than the portraits allow us

1:06:05

to see. So she was a woman

1:06:08

who again contributed

1:06:12

the portrait. She was a woman who

1:06:14

who really enjoyed luxury

1:06:16

and the finer trappings of life.

1:06:18

She she also loved

1:06:22

to have done and to have a good time. She had

1:06:24

two folds. She

1:06:26

ordered red and white wine in abundance.

1:06:30

She you

1:06:32

know, even her even her

1:06:34

spectacles and

1:06:35

her spectacle cases

1:06:36

in later life were made

1:06:40

from gold. So I think that there is a there is a

1:06:42

woman who religion

1:06:42

meant a great deal to Margaret. There's

1:06:45

no doubt about that, but she

1:06:48

was also a woman of her

1:06:50

time who enjoyed the trappings of royalty

1:06:52

that surrounded her and Definitely,

1:06:56

she was very much in keeping

1:06:59

with the title of my book. She

1:07:01

was an unbound queen. So she did

1:07:03

behave as though she were. a

1:07:05

queen in all but name and her

1:07:08

beloved and her lineage was something

1:07:10

that she was very proud of and that

1:07:12

meant a great deal to

1:07:14

her. And that very much shaped her and also her

1:07:16

dynasty, I think, moving

1:07:18

forward. That's

1:07:18

brilliant. I mean, I've got some

1:07:20

questions, but I'll take them up with Graham about you

1:07:24

to glasses. that I'd never knew existed. Oh,

1:07:26

I was gonna say, I didn't know she had that spread. Yeah. Never

1:07:29

imagined them. No.

1:07:30

there So asking someone

1:07:31

to fetch their readers. Can't believe it.

1:07:34

There you go. Ken with the

1:07:35

eighth also, you know, we know he

1:07:37

has gold spectacles as

1:07:40

well. So That

1:07:41

is the best Rex fact. We've had

1:07:43

on this show. McLean, where were you

1:07:45

for that one? Give me the

1:07:47

eight. You had Spectacles. Yep.

1:07:50

Oh, really.

1:07:51

Well, Nicola, thanks so

1:07:53

much for talking to Stobart,

1:07:56

Marcra, and Henry

1:07:58

Spectacles then. How can

1:08:00

people find out more about your sort

1:08:02

of following social media, such if they

1:08:04

want to

1:08:04

Yes. So I am on

1:08:07

Twitter as at nicholas and

1:08:09

I'm on Instagram as at historian

1:08:11

underscore nichola. And yeah. And

1:08:14

then I've got my

1:08:16

website, which is nicholas hallis

1:08:18

dot com, and unusually out and about in the world talking quite

1:08:20

a lot. So and,

1:08:23

you know, you can at

1:08:26

my events page on my website, if

1:08:28

you want to come and say hi.

1:08:30

Yeah. Brilliant. And when's when's

1:08:32

the new book

1:08:33

coming out? Come on, if you

1:08:35

said that Oh, that is coming out the end of

1:08:36

November. Yeah. So not It's like time

1:08:38

for Christmas. Yeah. It's time

1:08:39

for Christmas.

1:08:44

Perfect timing. Brilliant. Well, we look forward to

1:08:46

that. Nicola, thanks so much for joining us and great talking to you. Pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

1:08:48

russia think famous for having me to

1:08:51

her

1:08:52

To who? So that was Nicolas Tales on Margaret

1:08:53

Beaufort. Let us know what you thought about all of that. You can

1:08:55

get in touch with us on

1:08:58

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1:09:00

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1:09:02

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1:09:06

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1:09:30

we have some new query counselors to welcome to the fold.

1:09:35

Chloe Hope, Louise Brumicom.

1:09:37

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of Weisendanger, Leah Egan, Isabel Duff,

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1:10:10

Anyway, that's all from us today. Hopefully, enjoyed her.

1:10:12

It needs to be with Nicholas as her. She said

1:10:14

you can follow her on Twitter where she's

1:10:18

Nicola Tullis, and a podcast history james

1:10:20

is at History GemsPod. That

1:10:22

is Walthamos. Today, in the last

1:10:24

of our interviews from the Yorkist

1:10:27

Consorts, So we will be doing next a

1:10:29

special episode on the great

1:10:31

fire of London.

1:10:34

oh Oh. Sounds

1:10:36

hot.

1:10:36

So that's a special

1:10:38

episode, a premium one. So

1:10:40

the next three episode will

1:10:43

be a messages and previews episode,

1:10:45

but then we will be turning our gaze to the sixth wides of

1:10:47

Henry the eighth kicking off with Catherine of Aragon. We're

1:10:51

here. We're there. Yeah.

1:10:53

They're all over those two wives.

1:10:55

See you next time. Alright.

1:10:56

next time

1:10:57

that