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2:59

The. Book killing such a by will recover which I'm

3:02

going to tell you. I. Read last year.

3:04

It was my book of Twenty Twenty Three. Or it

3:06

or not, a Books In Twenty Three Three. This is

3:08

what they look. A Twenty Twenty Vision is that that's

3:10

come out in paperback. An Android by

3:12

Rory. Now Hello Rory. A Richard.

3:15

Thank. You for having me and thanks for

3:17

I mean that really is an honor by

3:19

the way Images Image to get your your

3:22

number one slot and we know each. Good.

3:24

To know what it was A seats that is

3:26

such a great books. it's a history book about

3:28

recent history is about the Brian bombing. But

3:32

but it reads like a thriller

3:34

and. I've had some impressive vehement

3:36

which will to grab my to, but the amounts

3:38

of. Investigative. Journalism

3:40

that must have got into this I think

3:42

could be another book having some which write

3:44

a book about you writing this book because

3:46

I imagine. What? Went on

3:48

behind the scenes feeds be able to find out

3:50

the things you found out. must be quite a

3:53

story that sells. Yeah.

3:55

It was wonderful makes of journalism

3:57

and history them in his that.

4:00

Smart meter them by trade a journalist.

4:02

not a professional historians but I've always

4:04

loved history and because you know these

4:06

events really that the incense a story

4:08

starts in in the early Nineteen seventies

4:10

and then goes up into the mid

4:12

Nineteen eighties so lot of the protagonists

4:14

are still still alive. Young woman about

4:16

for example am a lot of the

4:18

the police detectives, a sense of the

4:21

Ira guys many of course of people

4:23

court T characters like Margaret Thatcher are

4:25

no longer with us. but there are

4:27

enough that people still alive to be

4:29

able to. Interviews my journalistic skills

4:31

or than that in his the

4:33

Historian site to in a third

4:35

kind of thera that's facts and

4:37

color and details on sides loved

4:39

that makes you know of of

4:41

attitude. Yeah another story and

4:44

I guess having like this pair to time

4:46

away from me would be he think I

4:48

would be. I have a bit of in

4:50

a contentious but the rights given a probably

4:52

even ten fifteen years ago but it feels

4:54

like enough time has passed that you can

4:56

give. Am I would advise

4:59

that it's a balance accounts

5:01

or it hits you know

5:03

you're not of making moral

5:05

judgments on people, were explaining

5:07

motivations without necessarily condoning that

5:09

terrorist activities that it's him.

5:12

He had an ice difficult to say that

5:15

it's I did the right is not sympathetic

5:17

to direct but you'd you'd treat your you

5:19

explain their motivations. Are whether that's

5:21

justified or not and there And and and.

5:23

What caused. At. Least them

5:26

to to one said have this campaign

5:28

of violence. As. Yeah I

5:30

mean I have of course my own

5:32

moral compass prejudices like anyone else but

5:35

in this book I was really doing

5:37

my best to in sensible approach it

5:39

as a as a as a novel

5:41

in that pic a handful of characters

5:44

as a characters nice a real people

5:46

Me Margaret Thatcher was one Patrick Mcgee,

5:48

the Ira bomber and was another Gerry

5:51

Adams and some the police detectives am.

5:54

But. He has a big a handful of

5:56

people and then we entered. In. Their

5:58

worlds and them mines and we can

6:00

see you know who they were as

6:03

as individuals as human beings were the

6:05

coming from. What? Matters to them

6:07

what they're what they're aiming at, where

6:09

they're part of the story fit sin

6:11

and are really wanted the reader to

6:13

canada feel the understood them. Not.

6:15

That they have to be cheering for them you

6:18

know if am if you kind of appalled by

6:20

the Ira by about our a did am

6:22

so that you going to come a cheering for

6:24

the Ira but that when you are reading

6:26

the parts for by Patrick Mcgee you see where

6:28

it's coming from. Your ah okay so you

6:30

can understand why he did what he did. And.

6:33

Likewise, if you're a pause I'm Margaret

6:35

Thatcher. If you're at am ah in

6:37

a good guardian A stat anything she

6:39

she rests written well in this book

6:42

you gonna be A but you can

6:44

enter her own world as well and

6:46

you gonna be. Non silly, come

6:48

out of it thinking I love Margaret Thatcher

6:50

but that you will I hope have a

6:52

better understanding of what made her take and

6:54

how she fit into the story and of

6:56

why she did what she did. Yeah, I'm

6:59

gonna favorite your I have that most surprising

7:01

me. I came out with feeling. Sympathy.

7:03

For Margaret Thatcher seeing her as a

7:05

human face which I wasn't apathy and

7:07

to. Read fact I

7:10

think had not with the I get not

7:12

with condoning as an effort that our i'm deep

7:14

within our own decisions but he added it is

7:16

a fascinating from that point of view and

7:18

unlike you. I he died last

7:20

one of my childhood memories got four. I

7:22

must have been sort of spit sixteen My,

7:25

they. I. When it happened

7:27

and that. It. Was because it

7:29

was on Breakfast News was breakfast needed

7:31

more or less Just started I guess

7:33

in that time and so all those

7:36

pictures of Norman Tebbit. Emerging from

7:38

the the dust I feel we'll we'll

7:40

we'll watching live that that morning. Yes,

7:43

And I mean for people who have not. Read. The

7:46

book him into set the scene of Adam

7:48

in the Ministry. The book is that the

7:50

Ira decided to go to assassinate Margaret Thatcher

7:52

and this is a plot that took years

7:55

in the making. And their

7:57

that chosen. After scouting Tory party

7:59

several years and picking a team

8:01

to to do this, they decided

8:03

to do so at the Brighton

8:06

A Party Conference in October, nineteen

8:08

Eighty Four at the last night

8:10

at a conference Thatcherism The and

8:12

The Grand Hotel a big old

8:14

cars and nine story Victorian seafront

8:17

hotel And you know they had

8:19

set a time bomb three weeks

8:21

earlier. And. You

8:23

know the whole story behind that is this get

8:25

kind of the core of the book but how

8:27

they did it and and why they did it.

8:29

But as you said on the once the bomb

8:31

detonated. And the way it was

8:34

so incensed and fiendishly constructed that it wasn't

8:36

a bomb itself and sense that was the

8:38

weapon as the is the way the

8:40

bomb. And they sent over the Iris structural

8:42

engineer to study the architecture of the of

8:45

the hotel and that they. Mean.

8:47

That the the bomb exploded on the sixth

8:50

floor am and flooded upwards tore a hole

8:52

in the roof and their top of the

8:54

chimney. And. This five months,

8:56

Five. Tons. Of a

8:58

toy masonry than wobbles and then

9:01

collapsed down like a sort of

9:03

guillotine. You're good at taking out,

9:05

obliterating room after room after room.

9:07

And the idea that hopes guy

9:09

rate was at this with and

9:11

into Margaret Thatcher. Am and

9:13

I came so close to doing

9:15

so now when we saw in

9:17

on Breakfast T V than capture

9:19

the aftermath. And. We see,

9:22

I mean and lives and this

9:24

is like way before he knows

9:26

like T v the internet and

9:29

and were Sydney seeing and and

9:31

m the pictures of ah of

9:33

rubble and dust and fire crews

9:35

and police china what's happened and

9:38

hundred dig out survivors. Money

9:40

bodies, and famously. Norman's.

9:43

Habits. Margaret. Thatcher's lieutenant

9:45

and kind of the the heir

9:47

apparent to to Thatcherism at being

9:49

dragged diet kind of bloodied in

9:51

his pajamas from the rubble and

9:53

that became in a d probably

9:55

one of the iconic images from

9:58

from the whole story. Yeah.

10:00

I get ideas as I guess this a

10:03

that the dead the book is fascinating and

10:05

working in a you've met because that's a

10:07

big a is written a book I wrote

10:09

about read which in which he does not

10:11

discuss. This. Is a bombing at

10:13

all? really? Is Aura or the or how or why

10:15

I had a bombing or little. All.

10:18

Colors it is as got me

10:20

started on this book was affected

10:22

Patrick Mcgee who was a above

10:24

first. Born.

10:26

Ira. Am member

10:29

and he was guiding onto the

10:31

bomb who went and his without

10:33

giving notice. A little backstory: Patrick

10:35

Mcgee, but in terms of like

10:37

the Ira in a D would.

10:40

The. The. Guys who operated

10:42

in England was sort of their Commandos though

10:45

and sent the operational elite because that was

10:47

the most tricky thing to do because you

10:49

are out of the irate hinterland of Northern

10:51

Ireland, you're behind enemy lines and you need

10:53

to in a to kind of to blend

10:55

in. and he had grown up actually for

10:58

was seven years and and of his boyhood

11:00

in Norwich and he could do an English

11:02

accent. Which. Was a huge value

11:04

because he can imagine in the are in

11:06

the mid eighties you know someone without West

11:08

Belfast Gerry Adams accent. you know it's second

11:10

into a hotel with this. You. Know

11:12

even have that would raise an eyebrow people

11:14

might would would notice with clock that in

11:17

of yes on so he could that on

11:19

an English accent. So he was sent over

11:21

at three weeks before the Tory party conference.

11:23

Said before that was kind of the security

11:25

and police arrived He checked into a room

11:27

and he there by he constructed the bomb.

11:30

Planted as concealed it and then

11:32

walked away. Disappeared and the bomb

11:35

is ticking. so. You. Know

11:37

when the. I don't

11:39

I forgive me. Was it that was the question?

11:41

I would have An attorney William as they were

11:43

says that he he's right either an apartment and

11:45

but not about the actual. That's right, he. I

11:47

mean. He. Asleep. He was subsequently again

11:50

I don't have a give him a

11:52

job at him and he knew he

11:54

was. he was. Eventually he was caught

11:56

and he served time. He was released

11:58

early. By. Under

12:00

the terms of the Good Friday Agreement and

12:02

he had of as had a remarkable. Afterlife

12:05

am yeah since his release from

12:07

prison and cheap a lot of

12:09

this down in in a book

12:11

colts were and grieving were. Me

12:14

on the have it landed here

12:16

beside me m were grieving begins

12:18

and it's. About it his

12:20

childhood and why he joined the Ira

12:23

and bit of bad of his career

12:25

in the Irate but it's very explicit.

12:27

It says I'm not going reveal anything

12:29

of operational details about about the bombing

12:32

and now I interviewed him about his

12:34

books for an article in The Guardian.

12:37

And we did he get then. It's a

12:39

bit about the bright an operation but he

12:41

didn't in a spin any beans to me

12:44

and I knew he wouldn't because he's very

12:46

self contained very soft spoken guy and by

12:48

he's a doctor off of literature he he

12:50

got a obtained a P H d when

12:52

he was in prison so very bright guy.

12:55

I'm. A But. In. In.

12:58

Preparing to that interview with him for this

13:00

Guardian article I kind of read from around

13:02

the whole Brighton Bombing story or with assumed

13:04

a very familiar email was twelve years old

13:06

when the bomb went off. remember the norm,

13:08

it's haven't been dragged out and he then

13:10

and and the shock of it and I

13:12

thought well we you know it's all quite

13:14

familiar right? but. Once I

13:16

started reading otherwise, she's out. Bunch of things

13:18

that had happened here that I'd never heard

13:21

of before or if I had forgotten them

13:23

and. You. Know then trying to kind of

13:25

connect the dots of like the background to it

13:27

means started to see that was largely. Until

13:30

story here. And got.

13:33

And. Then going back to original question about history

13:35

in journalism that there was a fantastic opportunity

13:37

now to tell it because enough of the

13:39

did you know the people involved in it

13:42

was still alive to with us and that

13:44

as he said now be more willing to

13:46

talk about things. Because. You

13:48

have time as last people bit more

13:50

you know reflective and they feel they

13:52

can as safely discuss these things. You

13:55

have any say in the book habits

13:57

you've either thera some conflicting a guy,

14:00

The new chosen the ones that you

14:02

think are other most feasible are most

14:04

likely sorry you have. We've had to

14:06

make some choices on who you believe

14:08

I suppose with. With. Some of this,

14:10

some of this. Story's. Yes, there

14:12

are certain and lots of things actually

14:15

of which are very contested. Something quite,

14:17

you know, quite. Trivial. In

14:19

a way other things quite central

14:21

and I chose. My. Method

14:23

was you know to do is as

14:25

much reporting that could come up with

14:28

what I think is the most plausible

14:30

credible version and go with that in

14:32

the narrative. And but

14:34

in there and notes that endnotes which of a

14:36

cook is at the back of the book where

14:38

all the sourcing as late as and were. And.

14:41

Where I explain why some but there's a

14:43

contested version or something it's in. The notes

14:45

say I am. Am I mad? I know

14:48

most readers don't go there, but those who

14:50

do you really want to dive into the

14:52

weeds of it will were signs am the

14:54

other old alternative. It. Versions. Their

14:57

yeah, I got think again and summer the

14:59

you have. I'm someone who is has been

15:01

interested in the Irish question and started that

15:03

that sort of nineteenth century version of it

15:06

in the Two Hundred Twenty said you must

15:08

admit that school and university. Give.

15:10

I think in the

15:12

Uk with not very

15:14

knowledgeable about. Island and

15:16

why this situation exists or I

15:18

think this book. Does

15:21

that as very good job. As one

15:23

of just summing up the since you

15:25

I said I'm exclaiming. You. Know

15:27

he'd to the major points and right right

15:29

have to the that hunger strike and everything

15:31

of a lot before the bombing about why

15:33

that was happening, what it meant. ah and

15:35

united as I say what was that is

15:37

interesting things such as the fact that the

15:39

sort of brutality of the. Of

15:41

the occupying forces against that Mckay is

15:44

one of the things that supposedly made

15:46

him than of commits to the cause.

15:48

The wasn't grades, the inability, got beaten

15:50

up an imprisoned for nothing. And

15:53

and and that sort of brewing resemblance

15:55

to the kind of aggression. Of

15:57

the of the British forces. That.

16:00

Didn't outputs hits your pace is unsurprising with split

16:02

but I iraqi it's it's It's interesting how little

16:04

we know that am. I think how much we've

16:06

been sealed with my could see that get to

16:08

the. As. In the eighties we had

16:10

all that ridiculous stuff is Gerry Adams being voiced

16:13

by an actor and all that sort of stuff

16:15

and it was old with and we. And.

16:17

Everyone out to believe there have been in the

16:19

Uk at the believe the Uk version of these

16:21

events and not think about it so much but

16:23

it's eyes are at the Ip. The book was

16:25

very strong in there and how interesting is that

16:27

island is this. Sort. Of inconvenience

16:29

really to the politicians that they'd rather

16:32

be constraint on something else. For the

16:34

got this. Problem. And a

16:36

council has. Been

16:38

supreme good They haven't they? I'm suddenly

16:40

probably been. There was absolutely him

16:43

in Ireland Northern Ireland for a lot of

16:45

British people and five need in Northern Ireland.

16:47

Lot of Irish people on the sides in

16:49

urging the tell those is. Dreary,

16:52

Depressing, Boring.

16:54

Complicated. And.

16:56

You know at some point people just turned

16:59

off you know even as bombs and help

17:01

us continue. but it is. It is so

17:03

bleak and a so intractable young people just

17:05

gonna go setup am and it disappeared from

17:08

the front pages. From

17:10

most occasions and so.

17:13

He'll. Put us in a that one

17:15

went to do in the book was forced

17:17

us to attack in a lot of history

17:20

to see lane things and in order to

17:22

do that as can economically and as clearly

17:24

as possible and once again to the perspectives

17:26

of characters so that you know the reader

17:29

doesn't say realize I hope that the getting

17:31

history lessons you know that what they're learning

17:33

about and in being invested in his certain

17:36

characters and you you can. Even

17:38

if you don't the city like a characters we want to

17:40

know what happens to them. And.

17:42

He knows and that in that way in kind

17:44

of seen the backstory of of the history to

17:46

kind of the his you can in the sense

17:49

smuggled in because I felt and allowed to earn

17:51

the reader's attention You know yet to see him

17:53

you know member I'm a mention this when I

17:55

first went into my mum. actually those gonna do

17:57

a books on the on the bright and bombing.

18:00

And she gave me this look

18:02

considered that you know, but such

18:04

as survives. And off for seven

18:07

years and and she had a point.

18:09

And because we know willed can in

18:11

a know the ending. But just like

18:13

in The Day of The Jackal the

18:15

mean we know that Frederick Forsyth novel

18:17

We Know The Jackal fails right? We

18:20

know due to goal survives and yet

18:22

this kind of the process, the method,

18:24

the manhunts and he and the said

18:26

attention and suspense is so my hope.

18:28

My hope. My goal was to. Enough

18:31

to do the same, Which is that. You

18:33

know week in a the reader will feel

18:35

kind of carried along on the story and

18:37

they know that in the sense to denouement.

18:39

but the but in of a day. But.

18:42

He but the journey of how we get there is

18:44

fascinating. And definitely you know that that was

18:47

that was the girl. Yeah, well yeah

18:49

sees a T for I think it's A

18:51

and I think because you. And.

18:53

I the because has this. Because

18:56

we didn't by going through characters and

18:58

we thought we'd Manhattan. The Manhattan thing

19:00

is really brings. Through. That the

19:02

horror of being caught up in and

19:04

attacked my that ah and hands of the

19:06

family was sort of slightly sympathetic that

19:08

I was questions well as little salvage the

19:11

all that other people who were killed

19:13

and interests envies all of these explosions which

19:15

I've I've I think it's great within the

19:17

book with you. He. Didn't name is

19:19

not just like three people died you will say

19:22

when split push when. Bystanders the

19:24

killed you you name them which I

19:26

think is have very important because it's

19:28

sad that says. I respect for

19:30

that. I sort of the back there again

19:32

that these aren't just figured the the real

19:34

people but of I think there is a

19:36

make this a thriller excitement of both. The.

19:39

The terrorists. Coming. Up

19:41

the ideas which is a little bit like I

19:43

suppose. A. Version of the

19:45

the great Vid that and will go

19:47

to escape committees you know that came

19:49

up with these amazing plans that which

19:51

I'm always fascinated with great code it's

19:54

and wherever and that you've gotta come

19:56

up with these plans for That strangest

19:58

thing was whilst. Was. During

20:00

a being caught but also the

20:02

the. The that the

20:04

people to the police chasing him the bomb

20:06

the the guys who are he tried to

20:08

disarm the bomb them and they're gonna doesn't

20:11

have very moving story about the had a

20:13

bomb disposal guy being killed. In.

20:15

Know in the Wimpy Bombings. In

20:17

some he does all these elements

20:19

iced in. A subplots within it

20:21

works for example of Peter Gurney

20:24

and is very brave, courageous, an

20:26

army and police or bomb disposal

20:28

guy and his life and career

20:30

and a threaded that of Patrick

20:32

Mcgee. You. Know M and M

20:34

sense because you know I re bombers

20:37

as big a more sophisticated within setting

20:39

booby traps aimed specifically to try to

20:41

blow up the the bomb disposal guys.

20:43

It was just kind of battle war

20:45

within the war and that's that's part

20:47

of this and you don't find it

20:49

fascinating under such a like yeah you

20:51

can have to settle that that that

20:53

in and likewise I mean when for

20:55

me I really was struck by it's

20:57

kind of little Edmunds of class like

21:00

for dump liked a lot of the

21:02

police I'm in own. I spoke. To

21:04

was struck by him any of the

21:06

detectors and author David had his at

21:08

the fingerprint expert in Scotland Yard am.

21:11

Not a disguise. working class and boys

21:13

very bright and but hadn't gone to

21:15

university. So they end up in the

21:17

police force in the seventies and eighties

21:19

and you know that with a really

21:21

bright ones kind of the as quite

21:23

it's input meritocratic you know and they

21:25

were very. Am really interesting

21:27

just in about the in a day that

21:30

talking to them and and how they were

21:32

than battling. These are the kind of working

21:34

class guys from for ambiguity I re guys

21:36

are also from with Less but then. A

21:39

member willing to struck to me was and. Back.

21:42

To the brightness in the rubble of the bright and bombing

21:44

when. He firemen trying to

21:46

take people out there was and Sarah

21:48

Barry am a lady Sarah Barry she

21:50

m and she was the wife of

21:53

a Tory mp. Who do you have

21:55

a try to use die there but

21:57

as a piece of trying to gets

21:59

extract. Or deployment and take her out. Take

22:01

the can see if they could hear her. And.

22:04

The know there's quite important to them decade

22:06

connection with a person, the wanting kids to

22:08

keep them talking, keep them alive and they

22:11

said so, who's there with what's your name

22:13

and she said the response to came out

22:15

through the kind of that that this one

22:17

reckoned us was am at Lady Lady Sarah.

22:21

And firemen. Had. That

22:23

like lady any like he sounded

22:25

billable. report. And now his

22:27

fellow Jews and Arabs aristocratic titled i mean

22:30

the world is kind of America fallen collapsed

22:32

in on on on these people and yet

22:34

the rich class system in a some Aus

22:36

kind of as as survive that ensures right

22:39

And and in that moments and you know

22:41

I'm just that what was going to the

22:43

fireman's mind's eye to eye use the title

22:45

yes or no. I mean is only

22:47

one line And a book? if even that was the

22:49

line. But. He was those gonna

22:52

humanizing details from me were just of

22:54

what very rewarding way to kind of

22:56

you know rewind of of history. Math.

22:58

Really have that that was that was when he

23:01

was struck me was trying to remember some guy

23:03

but they were that that the reading. That's a

23:05

really good one but there are lots of little

23:07

detail what grounds. That. Rate that the

23:09

time, the place and the people on it really

23:11

is. Ah, and I am and

23:13

amis humor obviously in this is awesome

23:16

but sometimes it's dark humor. ah but

23:18

that but and under are obviously if

23:20

you're working in this environment. Jokes.

23:23

Are often the only way to. To. Process

23:25

and get through when you have a digging your

23:27

way through. The. Ramp people

23:29

blown apart. still alive. but

23:31

The Spigot. Get

23:34

the you. Get. Up

23:36

again you have to write myth that maintains

23:38

has you've obviously things things go wrong and

23:40

the some cigarettes i think that's comedy and

23:42

everything for the there is a little bit

23:44

of comedy. Surprised that the in this but

23:47

the and which I'm ah yes I mean

23:49

that was Harvey eat em Thomas he was

23:51

the i loved him as a character and

23:53

he he he said he did died could

23:55

recently he had been that the tory party

23:58

guy in response to for the confirm. And

24:00

for running atoms and setting it up. And

24:03

I mean he was am had a terrible ordeal

24:05

him and he was on the seventh floor just

24:07

above the bomb. And. You

24:09

know you've kind of blew the be blown out of his

24:11

bed and then trapped. Am. Onto others

24:13

kind of rubble. Honest on this is

24:15

paradise ledge am and meat and as

24:17

water pipe for almost stuff he had moved

24:20

from the the has paralyzed I am pinned

24:22

down by all this wait and then

24:24

he had am a water pipe in I

24:26

was burst amazon misuse of at risk

24:28

of drowning mean some then electric cables and

24:30

a sparking around makes going to get electrocuted

24:33

mean he would be a debate a

24:35

hundred different ways he was gonna die there.

24:38

Am. The rescuers very bravely

24:40

reached him. And

24:42

you know, and he he does. And it

24:44

took them several hours to get him out.

24:46

And. He says firing these zinger one

24:49

liners of the most the sheer

24:51

have another can assign sell the

24:53

and kind of jokes yeah whilst

24:55

act and the circumstance and. You.

24:58

Know I mean that was just remarkable am

25:00

and asked him about it and he. You.

25:02

Know on a is very than a like well

25:05

you know kind of the you know they're they're

25:07

the blitz generation You know where just get on

25:09

with things and and if you know you and

25:11

it was kind of refreshing you know to to

25:14

hear that am so yeah I'm in a whenever

25:16

there was a chance for. Glimpse. Of

25:18

Humor the book. I just kind of

25:20

grabbed onto that because as long as

25:22

it was relevant and appropriate ago according

25:24

to put that in because. Yeah.

25:27

I mean it's ah, you know this way

25:29

humans that will be do with me Often

25:31

we make jokes about the most awful thing.

25:37

Pat Robinson from one somewhere

25:40

and support for has part

25:42

comes from and vasco you

25:44

through the filter isn't scary

25:46

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25:48

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25:50

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Cast. And

27:09

it's It's not a surreal well because

27:11

obviously like some being involved an explosion

27:13

or being involved in killing people are

27:16

being voted. protect the people, your job

27:18

being deceived, buttons ah but those even

27:20

that's not you. You're not what. Operating

27:23

in a know, in a in a

27:25

real well in the fridge or operating

27:27

in this bizarre world were strays things

27:30

happening to things like factor existing. The

27:32

conference when I have never having to go to

27:34

Marks and Spencer's Muslims but some open early so

27:36

that could go buy some clothes. To. Go

27:39

to the conference is so that

27:41

must have been such a surreal

27:43

moment. Ruby's popular. These. Some.

27:45

People to be. Walking. Every

27:48

of his mother with the things

27:50

that at another era and in

27:52

a sense. Either. The right

27:54

and bombing helps to can it's immense.

27:56

The you know the legend of the

27:58

Iron Lady. And. Be. The

28:00

way she because where she was group responded to

28:02

it. I mean she in the immediate aftermath of

28:05

the bombing, she was an. Once

28:07

I managed to the. Police to get

28:09

out of the hotel. It took her

28:11

to brighten police station as a temper

28:14

which became a kind of the temporary

28:16

Downing Street. You know the kind of

28:18

government of are the kind of dusty

28:20

survivors from enough government ministers and and

28:22

some in their pajamas am either slippers

28:24

arriving at a police station at In

28:26

I have three in the morning and

28:29

Thatcher they're very imperial very calm. When

28:31

Dennis Thatcher meantime eve party had a

28:33

freak dad he was shouting at the

28:35

car that those fucking bastards the I

28:37

rates were Thatcher's is very controlled. But

28:39

you know in the this said this kind of

28:41

can say. As a chaotic scene

28:44

but think that that V station where for security

28:46

people am and the peace are trying to figure

28:48

out how we gonna get it back to Downing

28:50

Street as fast as possible. And.

28:52

Sheikh Rashid have a gentleman.

28:55

I'm just to let you know

28:57

I'm not leaving enough which are

28:59

the conference will go on as

29:02

usual. And with

29:04

silence in the room as her aides,

29:06

dynasty officials and the and the didn't

29:08

believe she's looking at her and hard.

29:11

thinking. But. You know

29:13

that were so the people I mean the

29:15

Brighton prominent as it looks like a war

29:18

zone and that the the conference such as

29:20

right beside it. And she saying

29:22

it's gonna go on as usual what in what

29:24

and few hours and again in from into two

29:26

hours you not the most and they were like

29:28

oh god no there's one to get her added

29:31

air and and seal off the whole place but

29:33

she she insisted. Because. For her, it

29:35

wasn't. Enough. That she does that

29:37

she had survived just as defined. I

29:39

re the conference got to go ahead

29:41

said to show the Ira to the

29:43

had that even fails to fail to

29:45

kill her and she has even disrupt

29:47

the conference. As a journalist,

29:50

conference goes ahead party by

29:52

ferrying all these. Ah,

29:54

Tories in their pajamas to Marks and

29:56

Spencer's a job especially early that morning

29:58

so they could get. You know,

30:00

get get get clothes and shoes and

30:03

then be married straight back to conference

30:05

center. And sure enough, the conference when

30:07

had at nine am that morning, was

30:09

just adjacent to it. In

30:11

up, a firemen and police are looking

30:13

for corpses looking for survivors and is

30:16

actually an extraordinary moment for of for

30:18

the. Yeah. Which again, sort of

30:20

for men to that reptilian I like it.

30:22

With it's immense reputation, it's would have. Been.

30:26

It is. I'm going. It's I suddenly by

30:28

findings about the Alberta and about the nature

30:30

of protests and on what's the best way

30:32

to make a point. And obviously. Violence.

30:35

Begets Violence is with a gun. the

30:37

world constantly, but especially now suppose I'm

30:39

and that that thought cycle by one

30:42

has to be broken but equally. Without.

30:45

The violence. That. It

30:47

probably wouldn't be an issue. however if it

30:49

was just some of them in the hunger

30:51

strikers wouldn't have would have been imprisoned made

30:53

without without having that been somebody anyway. But.

30:56

That kind of. Out of peaceful protest

30:58

of killing yourself in order to make

31:00

up to make a point is one

31:03

way of going but without without the

31:05

violence. Would. Would

31:07

I didn't even have been on the agenda. So

31:09

it's a sort of a confusing. To. Try

31:11

and work I solve these problems is sort of

31:13

amazing. We we got to the point where. We.

31:16

Had the Good Friday agreement. Things seem

31:18

to be. The. Last and hopefully still

31:20

will be that sort of over. You

31:24

know it is. It's at the counterfactual

31:26

as well as the grades. Know.

31:28

What? what would have happened? Yeah thats

31:30

died and. Which is

31:32

completely on really. But.

31:34

Means I did. Firstly that they came

31:36

so close yeah and you know they

31:38

really did Am indeed a in I

31:41

can I said as it. In.

31:43

Our history pirouetted on. On

31:46

geometry really because mean that's discuss country

31:48

avalanche that felt that it can mess

31:50

with a hotel obliterating when you much

31:52

another it as she took a swerve

31:54

a one point it would have gone

31:56

directly down into Margaret Thatcher. sweet she

31:58

was in the Napoleon Sweets on. More

32:00

and raise reasons it if you did

32:02

it just missed a when that the

32:04

at the avalanche shifted and went to

32:06

get all the rooms and adjacent site.

32:08

Yeah now. In a had she died.

32:11

What? Would have happens I'm you know,

32:13

how would history? How would you know

32:15

the England that Britain and the world

32:18

be today While different for sure? Yeah

32:20

you know and. So

32:22

it looks like me possibly would

32:24

have Norman Tebbit as a Prime

32:26

Minister despite his grievous injury Cv

32:29

could have done with the bench

32:31

succeeded her am but also she

32:33

at that point was at became

32:35

a crucial bridge between at this

32:37

new interesting. So. Good lyrical Gorbachev

32:39

am and Ronald Reagan's White House and

32:41

she in a sense kind of introduced

32:43

them and she and both Ronald Reagan

32:45

to to Detente and after the disaster,

32:47

the Bright and Bombings. I mean so

32:49

many things that could have changed in

32:51

in an instance. Ah, with a bombing.

32:53

And I mean, I don't go too

32:55

much into that in the in the

32:57

book because it, as I said, it's

32:59

unanswerable. But it's It's certainly fastening. and

33:01

as fast I am, how did they

33:03

can do with it? Just lock That's

33:05

muggy. Got them the right room? Have

33:07

any Hannah, Yasir. Room with the seaview. but

33:09

how did he know he was gonna get the

33:11

even Lbc need the room sort of above. The.

33:15

Crucial areas, right? Was that just with it? Yeah,

33:17

there's like a if. They. Had case

33:19

typewriting so they they expected anticipated

33:21

correctly that such it would be

33:23

in the Napoleon sweets of facing

33:25

the seafront and they had the

33:28

Ira had an. Come. Up

33:30

with the third matrix of rooms where you

33:32

know can good but the bomb know which

33:34

rooms would work right? Oh and troubles or

33:36

would do the damage that we wanted to

33:38

do and so the had a certain matrix

33:40

of rooms and when he checked in at

33:43

that you begin to the into the the

33:45

hotel he requested a c facing room. He.

33:47

Didn't add more detailed than that. Thrive and

33:49

see what what are they going to offer?

33:51

Him and the one they did was on

33:53

the sixth floor and is kind of within

33:55

that matrix thrive of acceptability for the i

33:57

raise these like okay thanks, I'll take that

33:59

attack. And you know so it's good

34:01

to them. They were thinking case six floors

34:03

up it sufficiently far up from Margaret Thatcher's

34:06

sweet that the police probably not gonna check

34:08

it that thoroughly or to and an effective

34:10

least in check it at all. And for

34:12

the bomb as you can it be safe

34:14

but we think it especially because it's an

34:17

upward am a splitting device as I mentioned

34:19

earlier can take out the roof and then

34:21

the chimney can come down and then once

34:23

the chimney comes down you know it'll go

34:25

right down into the basement am a taking

34:28

at each room so. You

34:30

know that? that's why the added kind of

34:32

ah. I mean is rather

34:34

the dice didn't They didn't know that with know

34:36

if is gunning if was going to kill her

34:39

not but they could only in a plant the

34:41

bomb cross your fingers yeah I've I've got my

34:43

favorite month a more than funny detail seventy a

34:45

friend three doors down from him com o citing

34:47

erotic quite I was. A. Bad about

34:49

have a partner I think with the

34:51

you mentioned a couple of I've read

34:53

on fire you know that's presuming of

34:55

recent victim it was. It wasn't that

34:58

Lisa was another by Iowa when it

35:00

should I put and then them in

35:02

an assistant on it was I was

35:04

talking to them when is in Brighton

35:06

Am and it's Elsa doing lots of

35:08

over the phone is a lot of

35:10

this did the research or coincided with

35:12

locked and but I and of speaking

35:14

to and this woman whose father had

35:16

been a photographer and she had and

35:18

she's go. With them to Grants Hotel

35:20

and if you mention that am I'm.

35:23

At. He had on the day off

35:25

when which Patrick Mcgee or during that weekend

35:27

that he was am. Planting

35:29

the bomb. Her dad have been there. Ah,

35:33

Doing these things looking for people say portraits

35:35

of and he was asked by one of

35:37

the guess to come up into this room

35:40

because you have to take erotic portraits of.

35:42

whom. In office partner who may

35:44

not have been a prostitute and seen at

35:46

the guy that photographer candidate so you and

35:48

the he shared this with the door and

35:50

the wife and and became entered some the

35:53

lore in and and i just happened that

35:55

they'd realize later on that this had been

35:57

the same weekend that. And. The

35:59

bomb as being planned so you can a

36:01

family local, semi legends and kind of hopeless

36:03

at some embryo on and storytelling side of

36:05

thinking. Well. I. Mean, it's kind of

36:07

funny is it to the included? I mean kind of

36:09

a good bit of a somewhat batch of us are

36:11

not use that. I mean you know it's just again.

36:14

I think it's just one or one line and the

36:16

with like or two lines and that the story. But

36:18

again I just you wanted to bring in

36:20

a bring this back to life so people

36:22

can. You know, sunset? conceive

36:25

a certain which I'm through the book

36:27

and scenes. Enormous cinematic in a way

36:29

that you could get chilly visualize what's

36:31

happening in this hotel. Who are? Patrick

36:33

Mcgee is in his room. In.

36:35

A at planting this device. Am.

36:38

You have life goes on, a ransom,

36:40

Yemen's hotel and to the at down

36:42

the corridor or this x and y

36:44

going on am and you know because

36:46

that's. Yeah

36:48

again the source as a human. Yeah, so

36:51

I'll one that that was the go to

36:53

to make it vivid and real but also

36:55

completely or. Accurate. You know I

36:57

mean this is an act as a worker Journalism

36:59

yeah but I think that's what what is is

37:01

what is what those books of once you get

37:03

into it which I was listening to it but

37:06

you know you don't want to put it down

37:08

the I want to turn off because if you

37:10

want to find the average met leaving are you

37:12

there you know Tunic Sidewalk and Fast Breeder know

37:14

the whole that the details of it but it

37:16

is. It is gripping it is it does read

37:18

like a cruel and the fact it's real. Yeah

37:21

it it's you've You've really i think

37:23

up a good so peacefully jobs because

37:25

other you do. Appreciate is

37:27

not. It's not like have to learn the

37:29

sense in the for a when some a

37:31

peripheral character dies you go out every who

37:33

characterize and you got of shit that was

37:35

in and that's a real person is the

37:37

time of the you make that require but

37:39

I think it's the having such. On

37:42

both saw at all sides of this it's it's

37:44

such an entry story and attack as yeah the

37:46

at the center of it. So the cat and

37:48

mouse. Between. The place in

37:50

there and the and the Terrorists and

37:52

it's the episodes I suppose this those

37:55

figures they want that well known figures.

37:58

As I possibly from the. The bombers but the

38:01

is the is those is is those figures

38:03

I guess I was working class regular guys

38:05

who are. Who who managed

38:07

to track down? who's is done This

38:10

which is in again incredible detective job.

38:12

Ah, and and of and in an arena twenty

38:15

three storey. One. Of my favorite

38:17

parts in the research and then

38:19

in the writing was the The

38:21

Departed David. Today it was as

38:23

the Scotland Yard Fingerprints Guy and

38:25

he and yet it. Is. A

38:27

patients at with me describing the process of

38:29

fingerprints which again that giving too much way

38:31

but as a key. Twist.

38:33

An old thought is that Am Patrick Mcgee

38:36

and part of kind of Ira Fields craft

38:38

at that time was that when you're taking

38:40

it a hotel under a pseudonym you you

38:42

don't want to touch the that the registration

38:45

card you want to sign it without leaving

38:47

any prince and then return it to the

38:49

hotel clerk you know without raising suspicion so

38:51

you don't have it up in it and

38:53

be wearing gloves am and and so on

38:56

and I think of friends become at a

38:58

crucial part of it and. You

39:00

know that the process of then identify

39:02

the prince and this was basing it

39:04

on the analog era dance has no

39:07

real computers and the way the process

39:09

in which Scotland Yard and to go

39:11

to two fingerprints assassinating an eye opening

39:14

to me I've had had a big

39:16

lead just using pen and paper and

39:18

a lot of the time and. He

39:21

noted the months to get to the

39:23

fingerprint am. So than in

39:25

a sense that the narrative builds up to

39:28

this is the key pivotal moment and in

39:30

a to make the read a feel it

39:32

I was yet tormenting David had with questions

39:34

like wealth when you're in that particular room

39:36

what was the lighting like you know with

39:38

their lives like innovate bride was at them

39:41

and with the floor is like squeaky you

39:43

know and I were they screen our or

39:45

the carpets or or people drinking coffee you

39:47

know I what was what it smell like

39:49

it's at all the stuff to kind of

39:51

like it in as kind of sensory things

39:53

like to can bring the reader. Into

39:56

it and and it Often enough,

39:58

get all this material. And

40:00

then you end up having to kind of only

40:02

use maybe five percent in our the like an

40:05

agonizing president in the right of of but you

40:07

know you you you eat and I get as

40:09

much as he can. So yeah so I can

40:11

kind of sense almost felines in the room myself

40:14

and then can arrive at with. He

40:16

knows a sense of of of conviction on authority

40:18

like this is how that last year and in

40:20

an and you want the reader to you know

40:22

to bring the read on that that. He. Know

40:24

that that journey with you so they can

40:26

also to see it with you and and

40:28

the other key moments in the book which

40:30

is so much fun to write where you

40:33

can had the material to do justice. To

40:35

the scenes you know am and that

40:37

was quite so great to have people

40:39

tell a lie to to to talk

40:41

about it and I'm very grateful to.

40:44

All the people I am I

40:46

concluding x Ira members plus x

40:48

police officers who you know who

40:51

gave their time under trust more

40:53

than anything their trust and then

40:55

speaking to. Him. Yeah.

40:57

I'm come out as as think of you

40:59

know that it is interesting how difficult that

41:01

priests ah operation would have been of ammo

41:04

guys but I've been, I've been written. What?

41:06

Do you have that document? Drop a

41:08

Yorkshire Ripper and that and and how

41:10

badly he that case was run and

41:12

how terrible conflict sweater in that situation

41:15

and have a basically screwed up everything

41:17

cause of their own prejudices? How it

41:19

is interesting to see. Ads. Read

41:21

a story about the police. The. And

41:23

I doing an exemplary and fantastic i'm

41:25

input sort of needle in a haystack

41:27

job that they. That. They succeed

41:29

with. Well. Except they did. And

41:31

that they didn't diminish what. I

41:33

mean that was major major can a

41:35

police blunder is a long way to

41:38

me. The fingerprinting was very well done

41:40

and executed but there was also misjudgments

41:42

and blunders by the police and equally

41:44

by the Ira Send some ways it

41:46

was gonna hold and of lip can

41:48

assume some you know can. Seem

41:51

intelligence and and craftiness on both sides

41:54

but also decent of blunders states can

41:56

believe in retrospect in I had a

41:58

to make his mistakes. And and

42:00

so and Yen which is very very

42:03

human you know of. allen. Ah,

42:05

Of these mistakes and because in the end. In

42:08

a when the. I mean did the denouement

42:10

of our but again I don't to give too

42:12

much away, but you know that the is in

42:14

office work at year on from the bombing or

42:17

almost a year. In. Nineteen eighty Five

42:19

now and we have a where

42:21

by Patrick Mcgee and an Ira

42:24

sell our in the tenement has

42:26

in Glasgow. And Scottish

42:28

Police. Know that is

42:31

Iraq. People in their the know patch him

42:33

again and there but they do not know.

42:35

The patted me on my mind. That.

42:37

Any terrorist guys in London know this but

42:39

that is it hasn't actually such to to

42:41

the scottish least with ones on the grass

42:44

and who for various reasons of any ending

42:46

up. Kind. Of surrounding this place.

42:48

but they don't know what the hell's

42:50

going on and they need to. Random

42:52

they decide that storm this apartment complex

42:54

without knowing in which apartment the Ira

42:57

guys are. Yeah, so they need to

42:59

then get weapons right? But it's Saturday

43:01

nights they not enough some on caught

43:04

in Scotland's you know it at short

43:06

notice to get guns that I'm gonna

43:08

borrow and and improvise like a posse

43:10

of of detectives from in a grubby

43:13

people from different departments. We've got a

43:15

gun either. Get enough. Sleep and at

43:17

unintended charging and blinds without any pictures

43:19

or for the Intel or a map

43:22

I mean in a so different to

43:24

the kind of like the swat team

43:26

stuff you see on T V or

43:28

I am. I was so like a

43:31

rugby team does all the kind of

43:33

robin stuff and can charge again and

43:35

and and away and. And.

43:38

He does. That was especially plans nine. I

43:40

mean it was like I am so and

43:42

that this was. After

43:44

the biggest manhunt in in in british history

43:46

and a like were. In. A real

43:49

life Guy Fawkes. That. Member think

43:51

Guy for to put in a scale of

43:53

things I mean me Guy Fawkes English good

43:55

still can extend rhymes by Guy Fawkes Five

43:57

hundred years after the events the of other

44:00

end up on didn't even go off the

44:02

athletes year we had a bomb that went

44:04

off and in a nearly wiped out the

44:06

government. And. Biggest manhunt. In

44:09

A and when the biggest Manhattan. In. British

44:11

history and yet it ends up being

44:14

like almost almost. Keystone.

44:16

Cops at the end. Except.

44:18

It all works out brilliantly. It. Was

44:21

absolutely nothing you know and preordained about.in

44:23

a sense date the know they are

44:25

yet some smart people making good decisions

44:27

but also the was lox I'm an

44:29

old bunch of this that in the

44:31

human factor yeah well I was lucky

44:34

and this is something I have slightly

44:36

misquoted. grab my cavity craved they want

44:38

the I r I said after he

44:40

failed which is actually with with a

44:42

the great going to wait today we

44:44

are lucky but remember we only have

44:46

to be lucky once they. Have to be

44:48

lucky. Old time something something all my vines. Ah

44:51

is such a such having a some

44:53

do not believe me it's such a

44:55

cool thing to fast. As

44:57

it would be a the coolest for that's why

45:00

terrorism as I keep I'm pretty manuscripts will have

45:02

a good for him but also that the detail

45:04

in the book that's. Thatcher. Was

45:06

kind of haunted by that and and

45:09

assumes. That. She would be killed if

45:11

she would eventually be assassinated deep. As a

45:13

result of this. Is a the

45:15

As as propaganda as propaganda? It was

45:17

genius that nine that it motivates me.

45:19

One thing that caught up in the

45:21

book to my own research was that

45:23

mom aren't good duffy. At. The

45:26

Libyan dictator about the both. he.

45:28

Am. Very much admired the

45:30

attack. He thought this is audacious and a

45:32

kind of restored his faith in the I

45:34

rates, but. He didn't like that line

45:37

about you know we only need to be

45:39

lucky ones. He was offended easily. This is.

45:42

In a diminishing you know the importance

45:44

of the acts and many hinting of

45:47

gambling and some you know so he

45:49

was cited grumpy about a lot that's

45:51

not the itself and whereas as he

45:53

said Thatcher herself was. Once

45:56

a haunted but she had a very human response

45:58

to the attack and see. Actually,

46:00

despite the public defiance and

46:02

private me, she was affected

46:04

by it. Yeah have.

46:06

You say three for after you? As you

46:09

say everything I've really want you to read.

46:11

I'm sure they will forget Specimens Hub for

46:13

professional athletes this believe it. I would I

46:15

take any often is the it's fascinating and

46:17

I think that's. Yeah. That view

46:19

in this the under a big out to

46:21

understand the rules, motives and feet so clearly.

46:24

The. I make a human and make its

46:26

emotional but make it a It's a

46:28

very exciting read as well as I

46:30

thought the I would I do that thoroughly

46:33

recommend that you are you. Moving on

46:35

to work on. Something else

46:37

beyond this now is this is another

46:39

Brooklinen I'd love to. I mean as

46:42

vanilla for sitting at things of dynamite

46:44

makers, I would love to do another

46:46

book, especially historical. Nonfiction

46:50

be an hour. It's non non narrative nonfiction

46:52

am as I'd like to do another one

46:55

so but in I need to juggle with

46:57

his in the day job them. And

47:00

devices only correspondents or at but I'd I'd love

47:02

to some I'm I'm I'm I'm looking at my

47:04

does occur at Hundred Thirty Three to have any

47:06

that is hard to quantify because of the you're

47:08

working as an article in. Then that was. It

47:11

was a massive fit. must have taken a big

47:13

chunk of. Your. Life

47:15

on. The the research took

47:17

about a year and a half and then the

47:19

the writing six months. Ago.

47:21

And so I was yet of six

47:23

months off on paid leave from the

47:26

Guardian Does to do that the writing

47:28

guns or was. Yeah.

47:30

Really intense but analysts strains identical insomnia for

47:33

the last two months because you know you

47:35

get each chapter and at my nose trapped

47:37

in a know what I want to say

47:39

but you've all these different strands like snakes

47:42

in your heads and they get out of.

47:45

Headway Senate Tidy is all snakes together,

47:47

In for lines are gonna make sense

47:49

And yeah, you know how much color

47:51

detail to put in an endless decisions? I

47:54

mean that just one thing springs to

47:56

mind was that. A. Member when. Patrick.

47:59

Mcgee the day the the we use

48:01

planting the bomb am gary parlance he

48:03

was an operator. And. It just

48:05

so happened that shot a smooth operator was

48:07

in the charts that week and I think

48:10

I think top the charts that week. that

48:12

three oz granddaddy of that right? In a

48:14

similar rate it was am on that a

48:16

diving into the lyrics of it's and You

48:19

Know and and kind of the doing that

48:21

and. Over that too much

48:23

you know, and and and so on. And

48:25

as a genetic thing the editor at cut

48:28

the lyrics on I Think the and the

48:30

and he was right. The fear factor is

48:32

endless decisions and the storytelling of like how

48:34

much and how little you know yeah you

48:37

got overloaded so. Am I

48:39

love the process but as was the

48:41

tormented by it as well. So when

48:43

I finished at. Writing.

48:46

Another thing and ever felt so so tired

48:48

and my life. And.

48:50

Is is the Irish question going to

48:53

be solved and seventy five food in

48:55

your work of a jerk? Or you

48:57

could an annual that you don't think?

49:00

the Saudi, the I. Nemo

49:03

as fast as you still got a job right?

49:05

if pretty good it's you that you're gonna have

49:08

a job for life matter As me I would

49:10

correspond to the Gabi. Oh

49:12

God. As. Yellow.

49:15

This waiting for the Democratic Unionist Party

49:17

to make a decision. The Bad: X

49:19

and Y It's I mean the good

49:22

set aside though and it's easy to

49:24

forget this is that course you know

49:26

the Troubles are over on a really

49:28

editing this. any suggestion of troubles two

49:30

point zero coming back and so Orleans

49:33

north and south or it's so much

49:35

better off now. Done. Than. They

49:37

were yeah before and so for

49:39

all of T. Aggro.

49:42

And ass and dreariness of Northern all of

49:44

politics at the moments. and on frustration there

49:47

by think politically, the political deadlock. A still

49:49

a hell of a lot better than the

49:51

hobby had before Insurance Yeah man, it's yeah.

49:53

But again, he thinks that without the and

49:55

I think it's it's easier sort of thing

49:58

or violence is an answer. Because

50:00

we just keep it out. That lead said

50:02

that the other side be violent but and

50:04

that ultimately you to stop the violence of

50:06

without violence. I think and are

50:08

you this but my is quite clear sort

50:11

of the arrow my stress the ira of

50:13

sort of nitwit was met bigger bigger deal

50:15

but before the seventies again it's have drifted

50:17

away and and people who were wet weather

50:19

over the bats. Bats. And mm

50:21

the. The. The the tarot was or

50:23

have. Brought it all back

50:26

into focus. Oh, it's a said. It's

50:28

a massively complex. Subject.

50:30

With you on one would have which could

50:32

be solved with. A

50:35

I will say will say but it's very but that

50:37

thanks for the book A Fantastic is is there anything.

50:39

That. You're reading his elbow you read recently you'd like to recommend

50:41

that set unit can be bad if he doesn't have. To

50:43

me that. I

50:46

am. I reading David

50:48

runs the The Wager at the

50:51

Moments and is a New Yorker

50:53

writer and this book. It's historical

50:55

narrative not section and it's and

50:58

tested The Wager. It's a bad

51:00

of a British navy ship called

51:02

The Wager that and was chasing

51:05

a Spanish treasure galleon and in

51:07

the eighteenth century and then he

51:09

was shipwrecked. The Wage was shipwrecked

51:12

of the coast of Chile and

51:14

is a story of what happened

51:16

to the. The Survivors, and it's

51:19

kind of a bit of like

51:21

The Lord of the Flies and

51:23

and Robinson Crusoe and Castaways. And

51:25

in the story. Of what

51:27

happens women on the silence and then how

51:29

they escaped the islands and then it ends

51:31

up as a as a court case. And.

51:34

Bike in an air back in

51:36

London whereby what hap what had

51:38

happened on the island is that

51:41

contested and different factions of the

51:43

survivors are now on trial for

51:45

their lives over this serve as

51:47

a person with a tough stick

51:49

kind of am Patrick O'brien style

51:51

kind of story. It's it's it's

51:53

I, that's true and then in

51:55

the sense, it's it's it's it's

51:58

a look at how. We.

52:00

Had our own stories and how we curator

52:02

around stories and had you know we try

52:04

to. Impose. Our own version

52:06

on on what has happened which to

52:08

you know in that sense. In

52:11

it was Tory that centuries old that actually feels

52:13

very timely. And. Terms of our

52:15

era of disinformation: Fake news and you

52:17

having your own facts? Am.

52:20

And Sonia, that's my recommendation at the moment. Among

52:22

halfway through it I sometimes when I will I

52:24

will look that up by the classic outlet right?

52:26

Thanks how much for have given some time to

52:28

read the book. I do actually recommended. Ah,

52:31

Second, was that age absence.

52:33

but that. Was. Aca Abba

52:35

haven't gotten had him on the focus of

52:37

your the best. Point

52:41

is a landlord via Thanks for Impact event

52:43

at Me I was out of your book

52:45

is it was that was the best as

52:48

I think very much as opposed to Chris

52:50

Evans and app and Evans as well for

52:52

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