0:00

You brought in an advisor to your company, but what role should

0:01

they play? Is a facilitator

0:05

different than a consultant, or

0:05

a coach different than a

0:07

facilitator? Does it matter? On

0:07

our last episode, we talked

0:11

about different kinds of

0:11

advisors, why to hire one and

0:14

how to find them. Today, we

0:14

build on that theme by talking

0:17

about how to define their role

0:17

in the organization for the best

0:20

outcome. Welcome to Right in the Middle

0:25

Market, a podcast about

0:28

pragmatic perspectives on

0:28

running, growing and selling

0:31

your business. We talk about the

0:31

challenges, decisions, and most

0:35

importantly, the actions

0:35

business owners can take to

0:37

create long term value in their companies. Welcome to Right in the Middle

0:43

Market, I'm Stephanie Chambliss

0:46

Gaffin and today I'm here with

0:46

my co host Mark Gaffin. In our

0:50

last episode, we talked about

0:50

different kinds of advisors, and

0:54

how to get the most out of the

0:54

advisors that you have around

0:57

you. So that included, why do

0:57

you bring in an advisor, the

1:00

different kinds of advisors, how

1:00

to select one. And we actually

1:05

got a great response to the

1:05

episode. So thank you all for

1:08

that very much. One of the

1:08

questions that we got in that I

1:12

thought was really interesting

1:12

was, okay, you guys gave us lots

1:15

of good information about

1:15

thinking about the role of the

1:17

advisor, but you didn't talk at

1:17

all about, what do you do when

1:21

they actually get there? So we

1:21

thought that would be a good

1:24

thing to cover today, we want to

1:24

talk a little bit about the

1:29

different roles that advisors

1:29

can play.

1:31

That's great. I

1:31

think, again, I would I would

1:34

add my thank you very much to

1:34

the folks that had great, really

1:37

great feedback on the advisor

1:37

episode. And look, I think it's

1:40

really important to, you know,

1:40

you got to get yourself to the

1:43

position of why would I bring an

1:43

advisor and getting to a point,

1:46

where is it, Yes, I want to do

1:46

it. And so I think what we

1:48

wanted to follow up on this

1:48

episode, and I think this is

1:50

important is to what role can

1:50

they play, so if you have the

1:54

right tools to be used on a job,

1:54

it just makes the job that much

1:57

easier. And so not all advisors

1:57

are the same. And not all places

2:02

to use them in the organization

2:02

are the same. So looking forward

2:05

to the topic.

2:06

There

2:06

are a million different ways

2:08

that you can think about this.

2:08

And I'm not saying that there

2:12

are some that are good, that are

2:12

bad, ultimately, the right one

2:15

is the one that works for you.

2:15

But we have a pretty simple

2:19

framework that we think about

2:19

and I think about the roles that

2:22

advisors can play within an

2:22

organization, along a continuum.

2:26

But I think of four specific

2:26

types. The first one is a coach.

2:30

The second is a facilitator. The

2:30

third is a consultant. And the

2:34

fourth is an embedded advisor.

2:34

What we like to do today is to

2:39

talk through each one of those.

2:39

What are they? What is the role

2:43

that they play in the

2:43

organization? What is the best

2:46

use for that type of a role?

2:46

When should you think about

2:49

using that type of role? And

2:49

then for each of them, what are

2:52

some of the pitfalls and

2:52

limitations? So, we're gonna

2:56

start with the coach, I think is

2:56

actually a nice place to start.

3:00

I think about these, moving

3:00

along the continuum, and Mark, I

3:03

don't know if you think about it differently. But I think about them as really moving from kind

3:05

of the most indirect involvement

3:12

with the organization, to the

3:12

most direct involvement in the

3:14

organization.

3:16

No, I think that's

3:16

actually a way good way to think

3:19

about it and to think of what

3:19

their scope is, to your point

3:22

where they are. And not that

3:22

there's no impact. If you're a

3:25

coach to a CEO, you're gonna

3:25

have impact on the great

3:27

organization, you would hope,

3:27

but what's in their actual

3:30

mandate, if you will, of their

3:30

of their assignment.

3:33

Right.

3:33

So taking the coach first, if

3:36

you think about the role of the

3:36

coach. The coach, first of all,

3:40

is a one to one relationship.

3:40

This is one that is happening

3:44

largely behind the scenes, and

3:44

matter of fact, you may not even

3:48

know within the organization

3:48

that a coach is present. Again,

3:52

coaches have different ways that

3:52

they tend to operate, but you

3:56

may know that somebody has a

3:56

coach, but you're probably not

3:59

going to see them. They're

3:59

working one to one, with an

4:03

individual, typically behind the

4:03

scenes. So that's the role that

4:07

they're going to play. If you

4:07

think about then the best use, I

4:12

think about this one in a phrase

4:12

that this is about elevating

4:16

individual performance. So this

4:16

is about how do we take an

4:21

individual, typically on the

4:21

leadership team, it may be

4:24

somebody else, but typically

4:24

this is on a leadership team.

4:27

And if you think about the

4:27

different use cases for a coach,

4:30

this may be somebody who either

4:30

is moving into a new role, not

4:35

uncommon that you may see

4:35

someone who has just been

4:38

promoted and a coach is part of

4:38

helping make sure that that

4:42

person develops the skills to be

4:42

successful, at the next level of

4:46

the organization. You might see

4:46

somebody who is overall a strong

4:51

performer or is valuable to the

4:51

organization, but they have an

4:54

area that's been a challenge for

4:54

them and they need some help to

4:57

be able to really improve that

4:57

performance in that particular

5:01

area. So you might see a coach,

5:01

that's focused with somebody

5:06

around how they're interacting

5:06

with others around how they're

5:09

managing people. You know, there

5:09

are different kinds of coaches,

5:14

but typically, then that's going

5:14

to be around either, a recent

5:19

change or something specific

5:19

that they want to improve. Mark,

5:22

what other situations do you

5:22

think for coaching?

5:25

Well, look, I think I've seen coaches used effectively in all company

5:27

sizes, you know, from major,

5:31

major, large, multinational

5:31

companies to small startups. You

5:35

see a lot of small startups now

5:35

that are formed by high techie

5:39

people, right. They're, really

5:39

good engineers, they're really

5:42

good at technology. But they

5:42

realize in order to attract and

5:45

retain people, that they've got

5:45

some shortcomings that they may

5:48

need to start to round up very,

5:48

very quickly, if they're raising

5:51

capital and growing hyper fast.

5:51

And you've got to learn how to

5:56

be a more well rounded person.

5:56

So I've seen this, with, you

6:00

know, with high growth sales

6:00

people who now are taking

6:03

greater responsibilities in the

6:03

organization, you can see it

6:05

with someone that's elevated to

6:05

like a COO role, who now is not

6:09

just a good plan, operator,

6:09

they're brilliant at that. But

6:12

now they have to start interacting with a bunch of other heads of the other parts

6:14

of the company, and coming up

6:17

with strategic visions, and

6:17

dealing more with finance. So

6:21

there's all kinds of really cool

6:21

roles for coaches to play. And

6:25

some of those may be internal.

6:25

There's some companies that have

6:28

internal coaches, and there's

6:28

other folks that develop those

6:31

outside. And again, this goes

6:31

all the way up to the C suite

6:34

and the CEO, as to, they need a

6:34

sounding board? How do they

6:40

sometimes when they're going

6:40

public, or if they're going to

6:42

have to increase their public

6:42

persona in the community,

6:46

they'll still get coaching

6:46

there. So it can be very, very

6:49

useful.

6:50

When you talk about internal, I think it's important to talk about the

6:52

difference between a coach and a

6:54

mentor. And again, it's a fine

6:54

line, but to me a mentor is and

6:59

again, that sometimes is an

6:59

informal relationship, sometimes

7:02

can be a relatively formal

7:02

relationship. And especially in

7:05

larger organizations, you may

7:05

have a mentor or sponsor that is

7:08

a specific designated

7:08

individual. But to me, a coach

7:12

is, number one, it is somebody

7:12

who is being paid to do a job,

7:16

which I think is important. And

7:16

I think one of-let's start to

7:21

talk into a little bit of some

7:21

of the pitfalls. I think one of

7:24

the biggest pitfalls and

7:24

limitations of a coach, is if

7:28

you bring in somebody who is

7:28

just a, is just trying to make

7:32

you feel better. And yes, we all

7:32

like to feel good. And there is

7:36

a meaningful role in having

7:36

somebody who is a trusted

7:40

confidant, who, you know, that

7:40

individual, that leader can vent

7:45

to that is a safe space for

7:45

venting, but only if the venting

7:50

then helps you blow off steam to

7:50

then get to more productive

7:53

problem solving. I think

7:53

otherwise, having somebody who

7:56

just tells you that you're right

7:56

all the time, doesn't actually

7:59

help to elevate individual

7:59

performance, which again, it was

8:02

what we said was the main role of a coach.

8:04

Yeah, and I think

8:04

one of the delicate balances of

8:06

a coach too is, how much domain

8:06

expertise do they really need to

8:10

have, right? They don't have to

8:10

be, I don't think need to be

8:12

super deep in the technology,

8:12

but I do think that you have to

8:16

have some, I think what I've

8:16

seen some other areas too where

8:19

they're like, all of a sudden

8:19

someone decides we need to have

8:21

a coach for the C suite. So you

8:21

have one coach for four or five

8:26

people that may report up to the

8:26

CEO, I think that sometimes can

8:30

make it problematic for someone

8:30

to feel like, you know, if

8:34

you're talking to me, and then walking down the stairs and talking to my peers and walking

8:35

down the hall and talking to the

8:39

CEO, do I lose a little bit of

8:39

that intimacy and the trust, I

8:44

think you would really want to

8:44

build with a one on one coach.

8:47

When you talk about the expertise. I think the flip side to that is,

8:49

or I guess it goes back to your

8:53

earlier point about, know why it

8:53

is that you're bringing in this

8:57

coach. So the expertise that the

8:57

coach may have, do they need

9:00

industry knowledge? Might be

9:00

helpful might not really be

9:04

necessary, it may be irrelevant,

9:04

but it depends what it is that

9:09

you're trying to accomplish with

9:09

bringing this coach into the

9:12

organization and what you're

9:12

trying to accomplish with this

9:14

individual. You know, in your

9:14

example of a startup CEO or CEO

9:19

who's getting ready to take

9:19

their company public, having a

9:22

coach that has specific

9:22

experience with that may be

9:25

helpful. So let's move on then

9:25

to the second type, which is the

9:29

facilitator. So if I think about

9:29

what is the shift from coach to

9:34

facilitator, and again, we're

9:34

moving kind of down this

9:36

continuum. So whereas the coach

9:36

is one to one, and behind the

9:40

scenes, the facilitator is now

9:40

one too many, working in a group

9:45

and is very much going to be now

9:45

present in the organization.

9:48

They are, I think about this as,

9:48

they're now working with a group

9:54

typically, one of the key things

9:54

that I think is really important

9:58

about the role of the

9:58

facilitator and again, this is

10:00

my opinion based on my expertise

10:00

and experience.

10:03

I was going to say

10:03

you've done this about how many

10:05

thousand times at this point.

10:06

Yeah, this is one of my favorite things to do, it's something I

10:07

love to do. But to me, this is a

10:12

role where it's very important

10:12

that you are not being brought

10:15

in for your own expertise and

10:15

experience other than that of

10:22

around process and as a

10:22

facilitator, but you're being

10:26

brought in to really help get

10:26

the group, make sure that all of

10:30

the opinions and knowledge of

10:30

the individuals in the group are

10:33

coming out. So that you are

10:33

getting the group collectively

10:37

to a desired outcome, whether

10:37

that is a decision or a next

10:40

step or a plan or whatever that

10:40

might be. But it is not about

10:44

putting your opinions in. It's

10:44

about eliciting the opinions of

10:49

the group.

10:49

Yeah, I think most

10:49

of us have probably been to

10:53

those meetings from Hades, that

10:53

goes off the rails, you got a

10:57

lot of bright people in there

10:57

and it was meant to be an hour,

10:59

hour and a half long meeting or

10:59

two hours, four hours later,

11:02

you're still on the first point,

11:02

and going round and around and

11:07

around and the holes and so when

11:07

you've been with a quality

11:11

facilitator, who can keep you on

11:11

track, if things need to put in

11:15

a parking lot, all the tools

11:15

that they use, it is like a

11:19

breath of fresh air, because you

11:19

can actually concentrate on what

11:22

you're doing. And I know that

11:22

the more involved C suite folks

11:25

that I know that actually

11:25

participate in deals, they love

11:28

it, because it's like, I'm a

11:28

participant, so I'm following

11:30

the rules just like everybody

11:30

else is, and you can actually

11:33

get a ton done.

11:34

Well, that's one of the things that I think is really important is

11:36

that, we all know the executive

11:41

that thinks that they can

11:41

facilitate their own retreat-

11:45

and this has nothing to do with

11:45

their skills as a facilitator,

11:48

but it has everything to do with

11:48

their roles in the organization.

11:52

And if you think about their

11:52

ability to effectively be that

11:57

impartial voice that is pointing

11:57

out where ideas may be

12:03

connected, or where ideas may be

12:03

different among the group

12:05

helping to drive to decision.

12:05

Matter of fact, it was and I

12:09

think I've given this example on

12:09

one of our earlier episodes, but

12:14

there was a retreat that I was

12:14

facilitating. And there was a

12:18

point at which the leader of

12:18

that group who up to that point,

12:22

had been able to really

12:22

participate. So when questions

12:26

were being asked, it was

12:26

wonderful to see anybody in the

12:29

room would ask a question, and

12:29

it led to productive dialogue

12:32

and they were really diving into

12:32

the issues. And so at one point,

12:35

the individual who was the

12:35

leader of the group stood up,

12:37

and she needed to present around

12:37

a particular piece of

12:41

information. At the end of that

12:41

we hadn't carefully planned-

12:45

this is a retreat, I was brought

12:45

in to facilitate kind of last

12:48

minute, we hadn't planned that

12:48

handoff back. And all of a

12:51

sudden you watched the nature of

12:51

the questions in the group

12:55

change. And it went from, I'm

12:55

asking question to spur

12:58

discussion, to I'm asking a

12:58

question that I expect an

13:01

answer. So that's really, to me

13:01

the benefit of the facilitator.

13:05

And I think, to me, the biggest

13:05

pitfall and limitation is if

13:09

somebody brings in somebody to

13:09

facilitate, but they blur the

13:13

line between the facilitator and

13:13

the consultant.

13:15

No, I think that's

13:15

right. I think there's a whole

13:19

body of work out there and what

13:19

makes us a skilled facilitator.

13:23

And it's really important. It's

13:23

not just making sure everybody

13:27

gets airtime, but it's it is

13:27

driving gently, but firmly

13:32

guiding people along the path so

13:32

that you're doing value added

13:35

stuff in the agenda and not not

13:35

just you know, wallowing and

13:39

there needs to be follow up, you

13:39

put it where it needs to be and

13:41

you deal with it at appropriate

13:41

time. But, you know, it may be,

13:45

this is what we're trying to

13:45

solve this particular point

13:48

today. That's a very interesting

13:48

point, the parking lot. And I

13:51

have a question for you that

13:51

I've always wanted to ask

13:53

someone that does what you do in

13:53

facilitations, can you use a

13:58

facilitator in a brainstorming

13:58

session?

14:01

Absolutely.

14:01

You know, again, if you think

14:03

about the role of the

14:03

facilitator, the role of the

14:06

facilitator is to be able to

14:06

help the group follow a process

14:11

to get to a designated outcome.

14:11

So, in a brainstorming session,

14:15

take for example, one of the

14:15

things that often happens in

14:18

brainstorming, what's the

14:18

biggest risk to brainstorming?

14:20

It's that people start

14:20

evaluating the ideas, or you

14:23

know, too early, or that they

14:23

end up with a huge list and then

14:27

they don't actually have a

14:27

rigorous method to narrow the

14:30

massive list down to a couple of

14:30

specific outcomes. If you bring

14:35

in a facilitator, that's very

14:35

adept, what they are able to do,

14:39

is to help guide the group

14:39

through, you know, gently

14:43

reminding if somebody starts

14:43

evaluating too early or judging

14:46

ideas too early. No, we're still

14:46

in brainstorming phase. Asking

14:50

questions, probing questions to

14:50

start to generate more ideas,

14:54

seeing where we may not have

14:54

enough diversity of ideas or we

14:58

may be to all over the map, so

14:58

you know, kind of how do we

15:02

start to guide the group. And

15:02

again, getting to a point that

15:05

you make sure that you're

15:05

leaving with action.

15:08

Yeah, I think one

15:08

of the most compelling meetings

15:11

I've ever been part of is, is a

15:11

structured kind of brainstorming

15:17

session where you see, usually

15:17

the post it notes all over. If

15:20

people have come up with all

15:20

these ideas, but then getting

15:23

them grouped, and you start to

15:23

see people like, No, that's

15:27

really not a group, well, yeah,

15:27

I guess it is a group. And then

15:30

you start to saw, okay, but there's a bunch of really good ideas. But there's a way to

15:32

handle those that are not maybe

15:35

part of where we're going, but

15:35

you were heard, right, your

15:39

little post it notes there, and

15:39

there's a place for it, we're

15:42

going to keep it, but these are

15:42

the big groups. You can clearly

15:45

see the 80/20 principle coming

15:45

right before your eyes and how

15:49

you get to prioritize, wow,

15:49

these are some big things that

15:52

would handle prioritize actions

15:52

that would handle what we've

15:55

just thought through.

15:57

Well, and I think it's a it's a good example of why it's important

15:58

for the facilitator to not be

16:03

putting their own ideas up

16:03

there, because like it or not,

16:06

we all own our own ideas. Right,

16:06

we can't help but look and say,

16:10

Well, but that one was my idea.

16:10

And if you are putting in your

16:15

own ideas, it's very hard than

16:15

to appear impartial. About now

16:21

I'm facilitating the process of

16:21

narrowing those ideas down. So

16:24

again, just one minor example of

16:24

where I think that distinction

16:27

is important. I think that's a

16:27

great bridge to talking about

16:32

the next type, which is

16:32

consultant. And let's continue

16:37

with that right after we come back from a word from our sponsor.

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17:43

Welcome back. I'm here with my

17:43

co host, Mark Gaffin. And today

17:48

we're talking about the

17:48

different roles that advisors

17:51

can play within an organization.

17:51

So far, we have talked about the

17:54

role of the coach, which is one

17:54

to one and largely behind the

17:59

scenes, we just were talking

17:59

about the role of the

18:01

facilitator who is not bringing

18:01

in their own, if you will,

18:05

content expertise, but the

18:05

expertise that they are bringing

18:08

is really around working with a

18:08

group, to drive that group

18:13

through a process to a desired

18:13

outcome. So now let's shift to

18:17

talking about the consultant,

18:17

which I think is probably one of

18:20

the most common types that

18:20

people think of as an advisor.

18:24

And that's where again, I think it's really important to distinguish it from some of

18:26

these other roles. So I think

18:29

about the role of the consultant

18:29

is again, now the biggest shift

18:33

from as we're moving through our

18:33

continuum. Now the consultant is

18:37

somebody who we're bringing in

18:37

for their specific expertise, or

18:42

experience. We are now looking

18:42

for this individual to come in,

18:47

they may still be running a

18:47

process, but the outcome that

18:51

we're driving to is different.

18:51

Very often what we are looking

18:54

for is the consultant to end up

18:54

coming back with a

18:58

recommendation. I would say one

18:58

of the boundaries that

19:02

consultants- and Mark, I'd love

19:02

your thoughts on this, the

19:04

consultant should not be making

19:04

the decision. But they often are

19:09

making the recommendation, they

19:09

are facilitating a process to

19:12

get the leader who is

19:12

responsible for making the

19:15

decision to feel confident that

19:15

they are able to make the right

19:18

decision.

19:19

No, I think across

19:19

the board with an external

19:23

advisor, someone needs to be the

19:23

decision maker to bring them in.

19:26

And they should be responsible,

19:26

ultimately, for any

19:29

recommendations and ultimately

19:29

for the outcomes as well. Right?

19:32

You can't just abandon it. I

19:32

hired a consultant to take care

19:34

of that, and off we go. I do

19:34

think and I don't want to

19:37

foreshadow, I do agree with you

19:37

on your point about domain

19:40

expertise. I think there's such

19:40

a great span here with

19:44

consultants. So if you bring in

19:44

a Salesforce consultant, right

19:51

to help you with Salesforce,

19:51

they may have a very specific

19:55

add on a very specific tool that

19:55

you're like, Oh yeah, we need

19:59

that for my sales group. It's a

19:59

consultant, it's an outside

20:02

third party, but they're really

20:02

coming in to overlay a product

20:06

or service- if you will, canned

20:06

and slightly customized to you.

20:10

But that's still a consultant,

20:10

right and you're still

20:12

responsible for that getting

20:12

done. If you have an HR person

20:17

that wants to come in and help

20:17

you with design a benefits

20:19

package, right, they kind of

20:19

have an idea based on the number

20:22

of people you have how that

20:22

might work, right? It's a little

20:25

more, I don't want to say, you

20:25

know, set in stone, but it's a

20:29

little more narrow focus, right.

20:29

And then you get to some of the

20:31

folks that are going to be much

20:31

more higher level, as we talked

20:35

with strategy. If you have

20:35

somebody coming in and thinking

20:37

about macro, you know, meta

20:37

business issues, that's a much

20:43

greater scope.

20:45

Well,

20:45

I would say, that I think the

20:47

two things that matter here, are

20:47

making sure that you're

20:53

obviously, you're matching the

20:53

expertise, to what outcome is it

20:57

that you're driving? So you've

20:57

brought them in for a specific

21:00

purpose, hopefully, that purpose

21:00

is pretty clear, both you know

21:04

and they know why you brought

21:04

them in, so to match the scope

21:08

and the expertise. In each of

21:08

those instances, right, somebody

21:11

is coming in making

21:11

recommendations to you. And

21:14

whether that recommendation is

21:14

around your HR, your benefit

21:17

structure for next year, or the

21:17

strategy of the organization,

21:21

the way that they're going to

21:21

evaluate the information, they

21:23

need maybe a more narrow or more

21:23

broad set of the organization.

21:28

But it ultimately is driving to

21:28

that kind of an outcome. And I

21:33

think this is where, you know,

21:33

so whereas we talked about the

21:35

coach, has the purpose of

21:35

elevating individual

21:38

performance. The facilitator, I

21:38

think of as elevating group

21:42

performance. Now I would say the

21:42

consultant is the reason that

21:48

you bring in a consultant, is to

21:48

elevate organizational

21:50

performance. It may be a

21:50

specific part of the

21:53

organization, but it's elevating

21:53

organizational performance.

21:55

Absolutely. I mean, you're some part of the organization to cumulatively

21:57

impact the whole organization.

22:00

Absolutely.

22:01

Right.

22:01

So then finally, let's talk

22:05

about an embedded advisor. So,

22:05

you might call them an interim,

22:12

or outsourced or embedded,

22:12

different names that we hear,

22:16

but now we're talking about a

22:16

shift to, this is somebody who

22:20

has now become part of your

22:20

ongoing operations of the

22:25

organization. I think one of the

22:25

biggest differences here, so

22:28

we've talked about kind of what

22:28

is that key decision point?

22:31

What's that key dividing line,

22:31

as you move now to this point on

22:35

the continuum? To me, it is, you

22:35

now have an individual who is

22:39

making decisions on behalf of

22:39

the organization, I think, and

22:43

Mark, I know you have some

22:43

really strong thoughts on this,

22:46

about what kind of decisions

22:46

they should or shouldn't be

22:49

making for the organization as

22:49

somebody who's embedded.

22:52

Yeah, so I think

22:52

of, there's not alaways a clear,

22:56

clear, clear, distinct cut off

22:56

here on where you go from one to

22:59

the other. For example, I've

22:59

been engaged with a

23:04

multinational company, we were

23:04

helping set up their corporate

23:07

development department, right,

23:07

which is buying companies. So I

23:13

think we bought 700 million

23:13

dollars worth of companies in

23:18

nine months. So a whole bunch

23:18

going on at any given time. But

23:22

it was very clear, we helped

23:22

with the process, we helped with

23:24

due diligence. But I was very

23:24

careful, right, I could get to a

23:29

recommending part based on the

23:29

information before me, based on

23:34

my experience, based on the

23:34

analysis, we've done, but the

23:37

decision was the clients.

23:39

And so in that, would you say you were in the role of a

23:40

consultant? Or were you in the role of an embedded?

23:43

Yeah, that's kind

23:43

of, I guess, my point I was

23:45

embedded in that I was there

23:45

for, you know, almost a year,

23:48

year and a half, because it was

23:48

a long, slog stage process. But

23:52

it wasn't like, I guess I was

23:52

the CFO. Like, so you get

23:57

outsourced CFO, some of the

23:57

CFO's left, someone's gone. And

24:02

so you hire somebody for one of

24:02

the agencies to be abetted.

24:06

They're clearly going to have to

24:06

have some decision making

24:08

skills, right? But do they sign

24:08

the checks still, right. Because

24:13

they are still an outside

24:13

person. And so I do think that

24:16

you have to be very clear on

24:16

what the roles or

24:18

responsibilities are, whether it

24:18

was my case, or whether it was

24:22

an HR person bringing in

24:22

temporarily embedded, or it's a

24:28

CFO, or chief sales officer. I

24:28

think you want to be really

24:31

clear when you bring them in, is

24:31

who's got the right decision

24:34

rights, and what are the roles

24:34

responsibilities going forward?

24:37

I

24:37

think that's right, if you look

24:40

at both sides of that issue, one

24:40

is, I guess it goes back to that

24:44

match of accountability and

24:44

authority. So how do you make

24:49

sure that the individual who

24:49

you've brought in to be an

24:51

embedded or an interim, has

24:51

enough authority that they can

24:55

do the job that you've asked

24:55

them to do while at the same

24:58

time, recognizing that as long

24:58

as they are still an outside

25:02

person to the organization,

25:02

there is a limit to the

25:05

magnitude of the decisions that

25:05

they should be making. So how do

25:08

you make sure that you have the

25:08

right person map to them, that

25:12

you have the right kind of

25:12

oversight. Again, this can be a

25:16

very collaborative, very

25:16

positive relationship. This

25:24

doesn't have to be a harsh,

25:24

negative, you know, kind of, I'm

25:28

micromanaging by any stretch.

25:28

And I think you have to make

25:31

sure that you have that good

25:31

open dialogue. I can think of a

25:34

time when I was in a role

25:34

similar to that, I was leading a

25:38

large implementation. And the

25:38

need of the client was such that

25:43

I almost became embedded for a

25:43

period of time, in all reality.

25:48

And I still needed to be very

25:48

cognizant of I could make

25:51

decisions to a point. But I

25:51

needed to be very thoughtful

25:55

that I was not an employee of

25:55

the organization. And so when it

25:59

came to, for example, anything

25:59

that was going to commit

26:02

resources on the behalf of the

26:02

organization, that was not an

26:04

appropriate decision for me to

26:04

make. And then I would chip back

26:07

to this is where I can make a

26:07

recommendation, but I need to

26:10

bring in somebody else to make

26:10

that final decision, because

26:12

it's not my role to be making

26:12

that decision on behalf and

26:16

committing resources on behalf

26:16

of the organization.

26:19

Yeah, and I think

26:19

back when I was starting out,

26:21

when I left commercial banking

26:21

early in my career, and jumped

26:24

over into industry. And I

26:24

started working my way up to the

26:27

finance department. I learned

26:27

those skills by mentors within

26:34

the organization, and if the CFO

26:34

was an interim CFO, it can be a

26:38

very positive working

26:38

relationship. But you're like,

26:41

it's just different if it's the

26:41

CFO that you believe is going to

26:45

be there as part of the organization.

26:48

And

26:48

I think that's one of the risks

26:50

as well, if you're talking about

26:50

an embedded or interim resource

26:53

at a very senior level of the

26:53

organization, there is always

26:56

the risk, that you end up

26:56

putting off some of the larger

27:02

strategic issues that need to be

27:02

dealt with, because it doesn't

27:05

feel right for an interim person

27:05

to take those on. We've all seen

27:09

this where, you know, you have

27:09

someone promoted internally as

27:14

the interim, whatever. And they

27:14

feel like well, I really

27:18

shouldn't be the one to kick off

27:18

this major initiative, or make

27:21

these major strategic decisions,

27:21

so the can get kicked down the

27:25

road, which then can be a

27:25

detriment to the organization.

27:28

Well, it's one of the things that we actually provide, you figure, we have

27:30

smaller worker companies will

27:33

come to us with an amazing

27:33

bookkeeper, amazing chief

27:37

accounting officer that may not

27:37

be called the CFO. They don't

27:41

have yet the strategic vision.

27:41

It's something that comes over

27:46

time after doing deals and, and

27:46

being part of the strategy

27:49

planning process and development

27:49

process and execution. So we've

27:53

been brought in to supplement

27:53

that person, right, so that

27:57

person still stays or they close

27:57

the books, and they do in the

27:59

budget to do all that kind of

27:59

stuff. What we're trying to help

28:01

them with, is help them grow. So

28:01

it's almost like your coach in

28:04

the beginning,

28:05

I was going to say this is actually that's a great example

28:06

to tie some of these together.

28:09

So that's an individual that may

28:09

need a coach to help them

28:13

elevate and gain the skills if

28:13

you're hoping that this person

28:17

might grow in to be the

28:17

permanent person, they may need

28:19

a coach. And at the same time,

28:19

you may need a consultant who

28:24

can come in and fill that-

28:26

Do some stuff. And

28:26

help them with deals.

28:29

Yeah, fill that expertise and experience gap, making

28:31

recommendations, not decisions.

28:35

So that's a great example, I

28:35

think of where some of these

28:38

different types fit together.

28:38

But again, if you don't clearly

28:42

define those purposes, it can

28:42

become very muddled. So I think

28:46

that's actually a great place to

28:46

cap off today. So again, just to

28:52

recap, you've got your coach,

28:52

who works one on one behind the

28:56

scenes, and is really there to

28:56

elevate individual performance.

29:01

You've got the facilitator, who

29:01

is working one to many, and is

29:05

really they're focused on

29:05

elevating the performance of the

29:08

group. The consultant who now is

29:08

coming in bringing specific

29:12

expertise leading to

29:12

recommendations for the purpose

29:15

of elevating the organizational

29:15

performance, and then finally,

29:19

an embedded or interim, who is

29:19

there to fill a specific gap.

29:24

Okay, as we wrap up, two

29:24

pragmatic tips. Let's each take

29:29

one.

29:29

I think the the one

29:29

you touched on earlier is still

29:32

important part of me is, go into

29:32

this knowing what you want them

29:35

to do, and then who's keeping

29:35

the decision rights, right? So

29:39

that someone is still sponsoring

29:39

this individual, whether it's a

29:42

CFO than the CEO sponsoring that

29:42

position, but somewhere, someone

29:47

is owning the outcome of what

29:47

that consultants is doing

29:52

wherever they are, if it's a

29:52

coach, it's the same thing. You

29:54

have to make sure that the

29:54

mandate is set up in such a way

29:58

that it's achievable, believable

29:58

and then you can execute on it.

30:02

And I think mine is very similar, which is look at the advisors

30:04

that you have in your

30:06

organization right now. And even

30:06

if you just list them out on a

30:09

sheet of paper and say, Is it

30:09

clear to me whether this person

30:14

is acting as a coach, a

30:14

facilitator, a consultant or

30:19

embedded? And do I feel

30:19

confident that we are clear on

30:23

what that relationship is. So with that, I'm Stephanie

30:26

Chambliss Gaffin and you've been

30:29

listening to Right in the Middle

30:29

Market, a podcast about running,

30:33

growing and selling your middle

30:33

market business. We'd love to

30:36

hear your comments about today's

30:36

episode or topics that you'd

30:38

most like to hear in the future.

30:38

And if you need help on some of

30:41

these topics, feel free to give

30:41

us a shout. Don't forget to

30:44

subscribe to hear more pragmatic

30:44

tips and until next time, be

30:49

well and be tenacious.