0:04

Hello, and welcome to the Intelligence from

0:06

The Economist. Today from London,

0:08

I'm your host, Jason Palmer. Every

0:10

weekday, we provide a fresh perspective

0:12

on the events shaping your world. There's

0:19

one glimmer of good news amid

0:21

the global energy crisis sparked by

0:23

war in Ukraine. The green transition

0:25

got a boost Along the way,

0:27

some hard truths became clear.

0:30

Governments are just going to have to accept

0:32

that green power, is pricey. And

0:36

in America, a television show about

0:38

Jesus Christ has turned out to be an

0:40

unlikely hit. But this Jesus

0:42

is pretty down to earth,

0:45

cooking, brushing his teeth, even cracking

0:47

jokes. Not everyone finds

0:49

the depiction divine. First

0:55

up, though. For

1:03

the past decade, China's belt and

1:05

road initiative has reflected the country's

1:07

grand global ambitions. The

1:10

scope of it is hard to fathom a

1:12

huge investment scheme to create

1:14

shipping lanes and trading routes all the

1:16

way to Africa and Europe. For

1:27

president Xi Jinping, it 02 to

1:29

up China's international heft and

1:32

to spur plenty of industry along

1:34

the way. In two thousand twenty

1:36

one, he hailed it as an opportunity to

1:38

lift millions of people out of poverty.

1:41

It even has a song dedicated to

1:43

it. Roads,

1:54

bridges, railroads, dams, power

1:56

stations, all financed with Chinese

1:59

money and built by Chinese companies. But

2:01

suddenly, mister Xi's hallmark foreign policy

2:04

seems to be undergoing some belt

2:06

tightening. China

2:08

is undergoing a massive rethink of its

2:10

overseas lending program.

2:13

02 Richmond Jones writes about finance and

2:15

economics for the economist. 02,

2:17

we're in a new era now, one in which poor

2:20

02, which are already struggling to pay back

2:22

what they owe, will be overlooked.

2:24

The focus is now on profitable projects,

2:26

richer 02, and strategic gain

2:28

for China. So before we look

2:30

at where things are headed, talk about where they

2:32

were, what did Chinese lending used to

2:34

look like? China has a long

2:36

history of overseas lending, and it's gone

2:38

by lots of different names in that time.

2:40

There was the going out strategy in nineteen

2:43

ninety nine, then the community of common

2:45

destiny that was in two thousand and eleven swiftly

2:47

overshadowed by Xi Jinping's vision

2:49

of a Chinese Belt and Road stretching

2:51

across the whole world in twenty thirteen.

2:54

Throughout this period, even as the slogans

2:57

change, one type of project dominated,

2:59

infrastructure built by Chinese firms

3:02

funded by Chinese loans. China

3:04

has given loans for literally everything you

3:06

can think of, all way from the MEKOMETRI.

3:09

That's a railway in Saudi Arabia. It was built at

3:11

cost of about sixteen point five billion

3:13

dollars by a construction firm that once

3:15

actually laid tracks for MAU all

3:18

the way to the start of Banda, a shiny new

3:20

city in the Malaysian state of Jehovah. It's

3:22

an attempt to establish rival to Singapore

3:24

but underground. So all

3:26

of these big projects all over

3:29

the world all all come with a big price

3:31

tag. Massive. According

3:33

to our estimates, the world owed China's eight

3:35

biggest state home banks at least one point

3:37

six trillion by twenty nineteen. That's

3:39

the equivalent around two percent of global

3:41

GDP. Because the kind of stuff that

3:43

China lens for is built by Chinese

3:45

firms. The money almost never

3:47

leaves the country. So that should work for 02. Right?

3:50

And at first, it did. State run

3:52

banks were flushed with dollars from proxy exports

3:54

and the financial crisis, and State run

3:56

construction giants got more business and

3:59

a guaranteed profit. The bosses

4:01

of both also scored points with officials.

4:03

And the officials, they got huge

4:06

diplomatic pull over borrowers. Loans

4:08

flowed to Africa in particular, which was

4:11

home to receptive governments and a wealth

4:13

of untapped resources.

4:14

But

4:15

as you say in that picture, everybody's

4:17

a winner. Why change the formula. Because

4:20

there was one big problem. Those construction

4:22

companies that we were talking about, the bit of

4:24

the lending system that dealt most with the borrowers

4:27

because they were doing the building. They

4:29

had absolutely no skin in the game.

4:31

If a loan went sour, banks lost

4:33

money, officials were embarrassed, but

4:35

the builders still got their cut. It was

4:37

guaranteed. There was just no reason

4:39

to check if what they were building was sensible, let

4:42

alone profitable. So they built

4:44

big ports, roads, cities for

4:46

governments that just didn't have a chance of

4:49

paying them back 02 before Coronavirus

4:51

struck. Construction projects got iced.

4:54

China began to rein in the program, but to do

4:56

so,

4:57

they had to stop banks lending because they

4:59

just couldn't tame the construction companies.

5:01

Okay. So how to to fix that

5:04

giant expensive loophole then? What is the

5:06

new system? What's the new

5:07

idea? A new slogan. There are

5:09

loads of slogans and they're all about sensibleness, sustainability,

5:12

strategy. Officials have toll construction firms

5:15

that future belt and 02 projects should resemble

5:17

meticulous drawings. And another

5:19

one, mister 02 said, small is beautiful.

5:22

So Cynosure, a state run insurer,

5:24

now refuses to allow loans to countries that

5:26

are already heavily indebted to China. And

5:29

construction firms have to take a stake

5:31

in the projects that they work on, which gives them

5:33

skin in the game. And it's already working

5:35

according to Boston University,

5:37

projects are getting physically smaller as in

5:40

their square footage is contracting. So

5:42

that's what it's like on the side of the the planners

5:44

and the lenders. What about for the borrowers? Well,

5:46

how does the scene

5:47

change? The

5:48

amount of overseas lending is being 02. Borrowers

5:51

are fundamentally changing. They now fall into

5:54

two camps. There are those with a good chance

5:56

of repaying, or those for which lost

5:58

money is a price worth paying in itself

6:01

for diplomatic or military advantage. Banks

6:03

are going to fresh commodity sources, places

6:06

from which Chinese firms are able to dodge

6:08

Western trade tariffs like Malaysia and

6:10

02. Latin America is great

6:12

for minerals. Loans to friendly

6:14

countries with limited geopolitical use,

6:17

Angola, Venezuela. They've

6:19

dried up. But the money is still flitting

6:22

into the China Pakistan economic corridor,

6:24

a label for a sixty billion dollars. Of

6:27

mega projects in a country that already

6:29

owes more than thirty percent of its external

6:31

debt to

6:31

China, and it's because Pakistan

6:33

is such a useful ally. It

6:36

kind of strips away any sort of

6:38

pretense that might ever have been held that

6:40

any of this was just good business.

6:43

Like in the pure financial sense or,

6:45

you know, goodwill or aid by

6:47

another means and so

6:48

on. It's much more 02 sort of, you

6:50

know, 02 in in it in its intent

6:53

now. Yeah. There's almost like a stratification

6:55

of borrowers. Right? So you get the, like, the

6:58

good business borrowers where it just very

7:00

clearly is about business for these Chinese firms,

7:02

and then you get the second underbelly

7:04

of borrowers where they are kept

7:06

permanently indebted. Places like Pakistan

7:09

and 02. So yes, you're right.

7:11

The motivations are becoming

7:13

much, much clearer and much more fragmented.

7:16

So do all these changes reveal

7:18

what has been said before about Chinese

7:21

infrastructure projects like this that it's essentially

7:23

AAAA debt trap to get nations

7:26

indebted to

7:26

them. I think it really depends on

7:29

what you think a debt trap is. Right?

7:31

A lot of people think that China is a

7:34

really malignant, big, bad scary

7:36

lender that there's something written in its loan

7:38

contracts that is a

7:40

trap in itself. So maybe a

7:42

clause that means that these countries have to

7:44

keep quiet or not borrow from other people.

7:47

When you look at how loan contracts

7:50

work, China's are no less or more scary

7:52

than the World Bank or the IMF or

7:54

America. What actually just happened

7:56

and the crisis of Chinese lending is that

7:58

there is so much of it and it came on

8:00

so

8:00

fast. Some of it was useful, some

8:03

of it wasn't. So it's

8:05

not plainly a debt trap, but it's also

8:07

not strictly about business, how

8:09

to make sense then of of China's new lending

8:11

policies.

8:12

It's completely true that Chinese banks previously

8:15

lent to poor countries for massive useless

8:17

projects. One unknown is whether

8:19

China's officials will be able to resist building

8:22

massive projects once again. But

8:24

at the same time, China also

8:27

meant for massive 02 useful projects

8:29

such as dams and roads in countries

8:32

that couldn't borrow from anyone else.

8:34

Because they couldn't really pay back anyone

8:36

at all. And those countries,

8:39

which now have no one to finance their big

8:41

development projects, are going to miss

8:43

the old way of doing

8:44

things. Carrie,

8:46

02 thank you very much for your time. Thank

8:47

you very much for having me.

9:05

The war in Ukraine has taken its

9:07

toll on energy markets, the world over.

9:09

I

9:09

02, Russia just cut off Nord Stream

9:11

one, the gas. We're talking about kind of crazy

9:13

days pricing. We're talking about, you know, the

9:15

average bill being up at five thousand

9:17

pounds. Going into the crunch right now, Becky,

9:20

the winter as Amrita points out, it could be

9:22

horrific. To keep the lights on, Paul,

9:24

petitions in Europe and Asia are reopening

9:27

coal mines and seeking new sources of natural

9:29

gas. State owned oil giants

9:31

are spending big to boost output.

9:34

Governments are encouraging these dirty fuels

9:36

by subsidizing energy use as citizens

9:38

shiver through the winter. Private

9:41

energy firms are booking huge profits.

9:44

But this whole scramble hides a bigger

9:46

trend by making fossil fuels

9:48

scarcer and pricier, Russia's

9:50

invasion of Ukraine has actually given

9:52

renewable energy a shot in the

9:54

arm. So on the one

9:56

hand, we've in the world's existing

9:58

portion capacity of Bosch oil and

10:01

gas is already close to being reused.

10:03

And we've seen energy firms, especially the

10:05

worst producing oil and gas, posting

10:07

record profits this year 02, really

10:09

high. Now

10:11

two fathers is a finance correspondent for

10:13

the economist. And

10:15

on the other hand, the really high prices

10:18

of oil and gas have triggered a

10:20

boom in renewable. So I made the

10:22

misery of war in Ukraine and the

10:24

global energy crisis.

10:26

There is a glimmer of good news, which is that

10:28

the conflict seems to have turbocharged

10:30

the green transition. So why is that? Why

10:32

has that conflict sped things up for

10:34

the green transition? Well,

10:36

one aspect of that is that the high prices

10:39

have led to a falling consumption if

10:41

you look at last year, the world economy became

10:44

two percent less energy intensive. That

10:46

is to say that to produce

10:48

one unit of GDP, 02

10:50

using two percent less 02. And

10:52

that's the fastest rate of improvement in

10:55

02. And efforts to consume

10:57

less were most visible in Europe,

10:59

which in recent months has been

11:02

helped by unusually mild

11:04

temperatures. That means that as a whole,

11:06

the continent has used six percent to eight

11:08

percent less electricity this winter than

11:10

in the previous one. And then all over

11:12

the world, 02 seen also a lot of 02, a

11:14

lot of capitals being mobilized to

11:16

make the economy more frugal. Last

11:19

year, governments, households and firms

11:21

spent five 02 billion dollars

11:23

on energy efficiency investments. And a lot

11:25

of that really went on two technologies.

11:27

One is electric 02,

11:30

and the other one is heat pumps. And just for

11:32

electric cars, for example, we saw sales

11:34

of them double last year. But there

11:36

does seem to be attention 02. Even

11:38

though consumption might be down, efficiency

11:40

is the order of the day, but we know that

11:42

oil and gas production is still at

11:44

capacity. New exploration is still going

11:46

on. It's hard to see this as a turbo

11:48

charging, as you say, of the green transition. Yes,

11:51

war has triggered some governments to elongate

11:53

the lifespan of some official power plants

11:56

and to 02 some of the coal.

11:58

Fired power plants which are the most prolific kind.

12:00

But our findings suggest that the crunch,

12:02

caused by the way in Ukraine, may have fast tracked

12:04

the position by five to ten years despite

12:06

this sort of rush to find new fossil fuel

12:09

sources in the short run. And this is because people

12:11

are increasingly looking for alternatives, especially

12:13

in Europe, but around the world as well. Installation

12:15

of rooftop solar panels 02 saw a

12:17

record in terms of assumptions last

12:19

year that rose by half. And then if we 02 onshore

12:21

wind project, well, again there, we

12:23

saw a record one hundred and twenty eight kilowatts

12:26

been installed and that's a rise

12:28

of thirty five percent annually. But

12:31

even more encouraging is to look at the

12:33

dollar amount that's going into new renewables projects.

12:35

And last year, the global capital expenditure

12:38

on wind and solar assets grew from

12:40

around three fifty billion dollars to nearly

12:42

five hundred billion dollars And that was more

12:44

than the investment in new and existing

12:47

on and gas wells. For the first time, that's never

12:49

happened before. So that's really promising. And there's

12:51

also more money being earmarked for

12:54

nascent technologies like green hydrogen,

12:56

which could help decarbonize some sectors

12:58

of the economy that are hard to electrify

13:00

it. At the same time, if you look at the politics of

13:02

it, the fuel squeeze has really turbocharged. Clean

13:05

energy programs in the world's biggest

13:07

economies. So in America,

13:09

we have the Inflationarylation Act

13:12

sitting aside hundreds of billions of 02 subsidies

13:14

for clean tech. The EU is risk only

13:16

in kind. And the result of all that is

13:19

leading the international energy

13:21

agency, which is an official forecaster for all

13:23

things 02, to predict that there

13:25

will be between now and twenty twenty

13:27

seven at two thousand and four hundred gigawatts

13:30

of renewable energy capacity

13:32

added to the current total. And that's

13:34

thirty percent higher than what

13:36

that predicted before the world. And

13:38

presumably, if all of that renewable capacity

13:40

goes up, then on balance emissions come down.

13:44

Yeah.

13:44

That's correct. S and P Global, which is

13:46

a data firm, predicts that a repeat

13:48

in two thousand and twenty eight, at the level

13:50

that the world would still have been producing in

13:52

two thousand and thirty two without the invasion

13:55

of Ukraine. And the second thing is that

13:57

once the decline starts, it's likely

13:59

to be much more pronounced. There

14:01

are some predictions I've seen. We

14:03

are planning that emissions were

14:05

pretty much plateau until the 2030s

14:07

maybe. And now from twenty twenty five,

14:09

it looks like they're going to be falling at a pretty fast

14:11

rate. So although recent progress still

14:14

full short of limiting global warming

14:16

to one point five degrees by two thousand

14:18

and one

14:18

hundred, and most of the models and 02 seen

14:21

certain changes make

14:23

a two 02 rise much more achievable.

14:26

So on balance, this should all be viewed

14:28

as good news for the energy

14:30

transition. It's good news,

14:32

but the news could actually be much better.

14:34

And that's because the

14:37

energy firms that are supposed

14:39

to build this enormous amount of renewables,

14:41

they're still facing very big hurdles in

14:44

starting the new projects and then bringing them

14:46

to completion. One big obstacle is

14:48

obtaining permits. It's really hard

14:50

to get governments to review projects very fast

14:52

and to agree to them. In the 02

14:54

manner for offshore wind farms, for example, which

14:56

are big projects and should

14:59

represent the sizable part of the capacity

15:01

that we expect. It can take more than a decade.

15:03

And to give you a sense of what that means,

15:05

the IEA estimates that 02 and

15:07

ocean capacity could rise by an extra

15:10

02 five percent by twenty twenty

15:12

seven if this sort of bureaucratic financing

15:15

barriers were removed. But there is an even bigger

15:17

problem, which is that energy projects are becoming

15:20

less attractive for investors. Costs

15:22

to build these projects, they're rising. They've

15:24

been rising since last year in up because

15:27

commodity prices have been rising in the wake

15:29

of the world of Ukraine. So the metals

15:31

that you need to build the wind farm, the

15:33

solar farms, the grids, they've all

15:35

got more expensive. That

15:37

plus resin interest rates and all

15:39

these projects, they need a lot of capital to

15:41

break ground. And it would be fine if

15:43

the developers that 02 the farms

15:46

could pass on this cost, but it's become harder because

15:48

governments have put caps on prices

15:51

and windfall taxes also

15:53

that prevents the developers from passing on the

15:55

cost. You know, if you look at the big 02 makers

15:57

that are all losing money, the renewables units

15:59

of lot of energy firms are also losing 02,

16:01

and that's leading a lot of projects to be

16:03

renegotiated and disclosing unnecessary

16:05

delays to many

16:06

others. So it's a big issue. So

16:09

how to counteract those forces and how

16:11

should governments help all of these green

16:13

projects stay on track if the incentives

16:15

are shifting in the way you describe.

16:18

While governments need to take a long view.

16:20

They are keen to keep power prices low today,

16:22

which is understandable because they don't want consumers

16:25

to bear the brunt of the cost of the transition.

16:27

But that may be a false economy if it

16:29

really 02 the spending on renewables that

16:31

we need to happen tomorrow. The world won

16:33

the governors fast enough unless and renewables

16:36

and make real money. And you know, also as

16:38

more wind and solar capacities builds, developers

16:40

will probably need to withstand even bigger cost decreases

16:43

in commodity prices. Well, this means that

16:45

if investing is to stay attractive,

16:48

02 power will probably need to be sold at higher

16:50

prices than governments had

16:52

expected and what they would like. So, you

16:54

know, we want the position to happen fast enough

16:56

to limit stock price rises to two

16:58

degrees, let alone one point five degrees, but

17:01

there must not be a rest at the bottom here.

17:04

Matthew,

17:04

thank you very much for your time.

17:06

Bruno Jason, thank you for Amy. That

17:23

is all for today. I

17:25

have some business to attend to with my new friend.

17:29

On a chilly November day,

17:31

Jesus appeared in Texas. He

17:34

approached a lake outside light of Dallas where

17:36

fishermen had failed to catch anything the

17:38

night before, but 02 told them to

17:40

cast their nets back into the water.

17:43

Put that down for a catch. I

17:46

didn't get farther.

17:49

I don't have a clue with you, teacher.

17:52

02 been doing this all night. Nothing.

17:55

The fishermen said it would be futile,

17:58

but eventually they did as he said.

18:04

Moments later, their nets were 02 with

18:07

fish. What

18:14

it? What? Such

18:19

is the recreation of one of Jesus'

18:21

early miracles. First described in the gospels

18:23

and now dramatized in the chosen,

18:26

a hit television show about Jesus Christ

18:28

and his disciples. The show,

18:30

much of it, filmed in Texas and Lou of the

18:32

Levant, has become an unlikely hit.

18:35

But not everyone is behind the drama's

18:37

more viewer friendly depictions of Jesus.

18:41

The chosen is the most

18:43

popular show you've never heard about.

18:48

Johnny Williams writes about America for The Economist.

18:52

The makers describe it as

18:54

the first multi season TV show about

18:56

the life of 02. Seen primarily

18:58

through his followers, and it's produced by

19:01

fledgling studio. The director

19:04

hasn't had much success in the past

19:06

the actors were not very well known,

19:09

yet it is extremely popular and

19:11

it has huge viewing figures and

19:13

revenue as well. You say

19:15

extremely popular, let's put this into context.

19:17

How many people are watching this show? According

19:21

to Angel Studios, which is distributor and

19:23

licensure of the show, almost a hundred

19:26

and ten million people have watched it on its

19:28

free apps. The show also just became available

19:31

on Netflix, Amazon Prime

19:33

and other streaming platforms, and they don't have

19:35

numbers for those yet. But undoubtedly, many

19:38

more people are watching it The show

19:40

released the first two episodes of the third

19:42

season in theaters in

19:44

November, and they

19:46

made nearly nine million dollars on opening

19:48

02. Ranked third in the box

19:50

office ahead of Black Adam, which is a

19:53

big superhero movie and take it to Paradise,

19:55

a romcom 02 George Clooney and Julia

19:57

Roberts. And

20:00

who are the viewers that we're talking about here,

20:02

presumably mostly Christians themselves?

20:04

The show mainly appeals to Christians. Especially

20:07

avangibles and Catholics. But

20:09

I spoke with Dallas Jenkins, the creator and

20:11

the director of the show, and he tells

20:13

me that it appeals to non Christians as well. They

20:15

can appreciate it in a way that even

20:18

if you don't believe in the force, for example,

20:20

if you can still appreciate the Star Wars movies.

20:22

I was recently on a flight from Mexico

20:25

to the United States and I was surprised to actually

20:27

see on the in flight entertainment

20:30

system that they had the chosen

20:32

already as one of the shows that you could

20:34

watch on

20:35

it. And

20:36

do we know in a more general sense why

20:38

it's so popular? Well,

20:40

one of the reasons is that it's filling a demand

20:43

for Christian entertainment in America.

20:45

I spoke with Dallas Jenkins,

20:47

who is himself an evangelical Christian,

20:50

and he told me that there have been

20:52

movies and mini series made

20:54

in the past about

20:55

02, but they actually haven't been the most fun

20:57

to watch. Jesus. Sometimes they they

20:59

go from bible verse to bible verse, miracle

21:02

to miracle. It oftentimes feels

21:04

very

21:05

stilted, very formal His goal

21:07

was to make the show feel more like

21:09

a mainstream drama TV series.

21:11

If you watch the show, you'll notice there are cliffhangers

21:14

and there's character development. He especially

21:16

wanted to portray the

21:19

02 of the characters. The disciples of

21:21

Jesus are relatable people.

21:24

And I think that's part of the secret

21:26

sauce of the show is that so many viewers

21:28

watch it and go, I feel like I'm watching

21:30

myself. I feel like Simon Peter

21:32

from two thousand years ago is having the same

21:34

struggles that I'm

21:35

having. One of them is gambler.

21:38

Another one is the

21:40

victim of sexual assault. There's another

21:42

one who is an architect and

21:44

he just had a big project fail. And

21:47

when they come to Jesus, they're seeking

21:49

help, not just for some post

21:52

mortem fate, but for what they're

21:54

currently experiencing in their lives.

21:56

We also see Jesus from perspective on

21:59

his humanity. 02 you can see

22:01

him cooking, you can see him playing with children,

22:03

brushing his 02, he even cracks jokes.

22:05

In one scene, he's at a wedding, and

22:07

they're dancing, and he's asked if

22:09

he can help one of his disciples who's notoriously

22:12

bad at

22:12

dancing, if he can help him become a better dancer,

22:15

and he just quips some things even I cannot

22:17

do. I can

22:18

imagine how that might make Jesus a little more of

22:20

a relatable character for people who are not

22:23

of strong faith, but I can also easily imagine that

22:25

might not sit well with those of strong

22:27

faith.

22:28

Mister Jenkins told me that a lot of people appreciate

22:31

this side of Jesus as being more human,

22:33

but there are pretty conservative

22:36

groups that think that mister

22:38

Jenkins has pushed creative license a

22:40

little too far. Matthew was

22:42

one of the disciples for example, is a tax

22:44

collector, and he has this

22:46

personal clash with Simon who

22:49

is a gambler and who is having

22:51

trouble paying his taxes. 02 also

22:53

see Jesus doing some pre ordinary

22:55

things like rehearsing his sermons. None

22:58

of this appears in the gospels, of course. Mister

23:00

Jenkins argues that the depiction of Jesus

23:02

actually adds to the story. He defended

23:04

decisions by saying that he consulted with

23:06

three bible

23:07

scholars, who determine whether

23:09

the plots are plausible. But

23:12

you described this show as the most

23:14

popular show you've never heard of, kind of

23:17

done not in the usual Hollywood channels.

23:19

Is there a a route for this kind of entertainment

23:21

to to enter those usual channels at the big

23:23

Hollywood projects?

23:26

Christian filmmaking has generally

23:28

been shunned by Hollywood. There

23:31

have been some projects, for example,

23:33

the passion of the Christ, which was huge

23:35

success and brought in over six hundred

23:38

million dollars. But even that

23:40

one, Mel Gibson who directed it

23:42

was the one who had to foot the bill.

23:44

The chosen is primarily funded

23:46

through crowd funding. For the first season,

23:49

they raised nearly ten million

23:51

dollars on Kickstarter, which is a fundraising

23:53

site. At the time setting a record for

23:56

a media project, what the

23:58

chosen tells us is that there

24:00

is demand for high quality

24:02

Christian entertainment. And in

24:04

this case, Hollywood's lack of interest in

24:06

projects like these has been to the makers

24:09

of the chosen scheme. 02,

24:12

thanks very much for your time. Thank you, Jason.

24:31

That's all for this episode of The Intelligence. Let

24:34

us know what you think of the show. Drop us a

24:36

line at podcast economist dot com

24:38

or leave us a rating wherever you listen.

24:40

02 see you back here tomorrow.