0:08

Motherhood is hard. One second,

0:10

we think we're doing a good enough job, and the

0:12

next, we feel like the worst mom on

0:14

the planet. Which is why we need the

0:16

refreshing truth of the gospel to be repeated

0:19

over and over, giving us hope in

0:21

the everyday moments. So, mama,

0:23

whether you're sipping cold coffee or doing a sink

0:25

full of dishes, we hope you find truth,

0:27

encouragement, and laughter here.

0:30

This is the Risen Motherhood Podcast.

0:33

Thanks for joining us.

0:39

Hey friends, Laura here. Welcome back to another

0:41

episode of Rism Motherhood. My sister-in-law, Emily,

0:44

will be joining me in just a moment. As

0:46

you likely know, we're in the middle of our 04 series

0:48

where we're exploring different sorrows and hardships

0:50

in life. Today, we'll be exploring

0:52

miscarriage, and we brought on our friend

0:54

Abby share about the hope of the gospel

0:57

in this topic. Abi Wedgeworth is

0:59

the author of held thirty one biblical

1:01

reflections on God's comfort and care in

1:03

the sorrow of miscarriage and she's

1:05

the host of the held podcast. She's

1:07

wife to David and they live on the South Carolina

1:10

coastline with their three young sons. You

1:12

can keep up with Abbie's work at abby dot

1:14

com and find her on Instagram at

1:16

abby wedgworth. She shares so many real life

1:18

moments and parenting tips, so I highly recommend

1:21

finding her there. As a note, M

1:23

and I were not recording together like we normally do in

1:25

the RM offices. We were both home with sick kiddos,

1:27

so we recorded in our closets, and that

1:29

means the isn't quite as good as normal. We're

1:31

really sorry about that, but at least they'll

1:34

be prepared and know that the content is still

1:36

really good. Okay. One last thing

1:38

before we get into the show, I wanna tell you about

1:40

an exciting thing. You guys, I'm so excited.

1:42

The RM book clubs are launching soon.

1:45

So go ahead, start your group text now

1:47

because we are going all out this summer. We've

1:49

heard from so many of you that you'd like a journal

1:51

to accompany the risen motherhood book and guess

1:53

what? It is here, the risen

1:55

motherhood guided journal releases on May

1:57

second to twenty three, so this may

2:00

and includes everything you've asked for. It

2:02

has this beautifully decorated space to answer

2:04

all the questions. We have spaces to apply

2:06

each chapter teaching to your own life and

2:08

to record thoughts and prayers as you process

2:10

all of it. Emily and I are also recording

2:13

a series of videos that we're going to provide

2:15

to book club leaders own to help

2:17

you lead your groups and to take the Castle framework

2:19

a level deeper alongside other moms.

2:22

For all the info on book clubs, and where to

2:24

preorder your journal, head over to our show notes

2:26

or visit rizumotherit dot com forward slash

2:28

book clubs. Signouts for book clubs open

2:30

on Monday, April tenth. Okay.

2:33

Now, it's time for the show.

2:47

Well, hey, Avi. Welcome to Theverson's motherhood podcast.

2:50

This is just such a fun thing to get to do. I'm

2:52

so glad to to be with you guys.

2:54

We're thrilled to have you here as well.

2:56

For anyone who might not be familiar with your

2:58

work, could you just give us a quick fly

3:00

over of who you

3:02

are, what your family life looks like, and

3:04

the work that you're doing right now. Yeah. So

3:06

my name is Abby Wedgeworth. I am

3:09

wife to David. Took out to

3:11

him ten years ago. And I'm a

3:13

homeschooling mom. I have boys, two,

3:15

four, and six. They are from

3:17

home. Like having a bunch of puppies.

3:20

Everyone's touching, rolling around on the floor. Please

3:22

go outside. And we live in

3:24

the South Carolina loop country right in Harvard.

3:27

On Marsh. And I

3:29

am I love to teach the Bible. I'm

3:31

a writer. My first

3:33

book held released in twenty twenty. A

3:35

resource for women who have experienced pregnancy

3:38

loss, and then have a couple of kids' books

3:40

releasing in twenty twenty three. So that's

3:42

my professional work. I love to teach

3:45

women's retreats and speak at Mott's groups,

3:47

but my favorite place to serve in these nuggets

3:50

is in my home and my local church

3:52

context where a teach women's bible study

3:54

and lead a discipleship

3:55

group. So it's

3:57

me and nacho. Oh, well,

3:59

like Laura said, we love having you on and me

4:02

and I comment about boys. So

4:04

related, well, totally with you.

4:06

So one of the resources you mentioned help

4:09

is something that we wanna touch on

4:11

today. Which is the topic of

4:13

miscarriage.

4:14

Yeah. I know that this is so

4:16

sensitive and we probably have

4:18

a lot of women tuning in today that

4:21

are perhaps just feeling

4:23

really tender on this topic and

4:26

they are feeling the very real

4:28

weight of sorrow and grief

4:30

as they even hear that

4:32

word. So can you help us just

4:34

by understanding from the Christian perspective

4:36

why miscarriage is so grievous

4:39

and so we're our tears

4:41

and sorrow. I love that you're open with that

4:43

question because it seems like it should be a no

4:45

brainer. Like, of course, it's sad. But

4:48

I think our first at least my experience

4:50

with breads of mine who experience pregnancy

4:52

loss, our knee jerk reaction for some reason is

4:54

to minimize that, you know, or even

4:56

in our comments to one another, like, oh,

4:58

at least you are early. You know?

5:01

But it is sad. So kind

5:03

of two places I go in scripture, that

5:06

help just validate

5:09

that grief of loss of a wife from womb. The first

5:11

is Exodus chapter twenty one versus

5:13

twenty two through twenty five where the living

5:15

died declares that life in the womb

5:17

is valuable. When he calls for retribution,

5:20

when violence is done to pregnant women that

5:22

causes the life of the loss of life in

5:24

their womb. So that shows us god

5:26

values unborn children. And

5:28

then also in Psalm thirty nine, the creator

5:31

of heaven and earth, is the active

5:33

creator of any of our unborn

5:35

children no matter how many days

5:37

they live within our outside

5:39

of the womb. That little embryo developed

5:42

and grew under his attentive eye

5:44

and his careful hand. And he formed

5:46

all of his or her inward parts. And

5:49

knit them together and made

5:52

their tiny forms. So even if

5:54

these tiny people never live a day

5:56

outside of our room, They're fearfully

5:59

and wonderfully made. They have purpose.

6:02

They have dignity because they are image bearers.

6:05

And the loss of the life of a person

6:07

is always worth greeting. So

6:10

that's why I would say that miscarriage is worth

6:12

greeting. is the

6:14

loss of a person. It's not just the loss.

6:16

Of a dream or an imagined future

6:20

is the loss of of a person, of

6:22

a child. Okay. I already have tears

6:24

in my eyes Thank you, Abby,

6:26

for just bringing just the

6:29

sobriety of the topic

6:32

to the forefront. And I know that it's

6:34

even good for us moms who

6:36

have not experienced miscarriage or been there

6:38

personally to just even

6:41

get an inch of the grief that

6:43

I know it is for the mom who

6:45

does experience it. And I'm

6:47

curious, Abby, if you can just talk to us a little

6:50

bit about how that

6:52

grief impacts a mom. And

6:54

what are some of things that she might be feeling

6:57

in the first

6:58

weeks, months, or years following that

7:00

experience. I know it's gonna change and vary in there. So

7:02

even if you could walk us through that a little

7:04

bit would be helpful. Yeah. This is also

7:06

such a fabulous question and one that

7:08

I was not prepared for. People say it in

7:10

a sentence, like, oh, I had a miscarriage. Oh, that's sad.

7:12

I'm sorry. You know, but it's traumatic.

7:15

It's a traumatic experience. And I think

7:17

what makes miscarriage is unique. And it's

7:19

worth saying that every child

7:22

is a unique individual. Every woman

7:25

who miscarries is a unique individual, there

7:27

are no two circumstances that

7:29

are the same. And so that's worth saying and discussing

7:32

this. So when you say, what will it look like?

7:34

It will look very different for lots

7:36

of people, but there are some commonalities

7:38

or things that I think it's helpful to explore. So

7:42

it's a physiological experience. It

7:44

affects our emotions, it affects

7:46

our minds, it affects our bodies, we

7:49

are whole people, and all of these things

7:51

are connected. So In

7:53

the first days following miscarriage, usually

7:56

they're shocked. So women find out

7:58

that they're miscarrying either in what's called a

8:00

missed Which is where everything

8:03

seems fine. You have all the symptoms

8:05

and you go in for an ultrasound and there's no heartbeat

8:07

or there's no form or However,

8:10

the baby should be progressing. It just hasn't happened.

8:13

And then you have to decide what to do

8:16

from there. And

8:18

then if back bless these

8:20

women who their first indication is

8:22

the sight of blood, and that's

8:25

traumatic, I mean, to see. So

8:27

I think miscarriage usually begins with

8:29

shock. And

8:31

then there's weakness from

8:33

blood loss. Sometimes

8:36

there's complications from having to have an operation

8:38

if you have to have a D and C because

8:41

of a miscarriage where the body doesn't fully

8:43

shed all of what they call the products

8:46

of conception, which is just beyond the baby.

8:48

There are other things that have to come out medically to

8:50

avoiding infection. So

8:52

there might be weakness from blood loss, which causes

8:54

brain fog, but those are like the

8:56

initial days. I think weeks

8:59

following a MiscarriageAn,

9:01

actually I learned this. It's really common for

9:03

women who to experience shingles

9:07

after often it's the beginning of

9:09

of more complications in the body,

9:12

like migraines or singles, there's like more

9:14

suffering that comes from the stress

9:16

on the body. Like,

9:19

I hear from women commonly that they experience

9:21

in sadness or numbness, and

9:23

there's weeks that follow. And

9:26

your hormones change, like you go through

9:28

after birth because your body releases a

9:30

baby or has helped to do so.

9:34

And so lot of women experience postpartum

9:36

depression or postpartum anxiety

9:38

in the weeks or months falling to pregnancy loss.

9:41

And then, you know, farther down the

9:43

road, it can be traumatic.

9:46

So blood loss or or

9:48

for women for many women they see.

9:50

The baby in this process and

9:53

the site of blood after that can

9:55

be really triggering so for months after

9:57

getting your period and be really

9:59

hard. Not just because you're sad,

10:02

you're not pregnant, but because it's reminiscent

10:05

of the event. I think there's

10:07

also, I've experienced a lot of women

10:09

saying they feel really frustrated with their lack of

10:11

progress. Like, they wanna be over

10:13

it, and it just keeps being hard

10:15

or they wanna be pregnant again. Is it to

10:17

salvage it or will solve it? And

10:20

then either that's not happening or it's happened,

10:22

and they still are filled with anxiety or sorrow

10:24

because the baby doesn't fix it. A

10:26

baby doesn't heal the loss of another

10:28

one. So Yeah. I think

10:30

also there's an element of of just

10:32

greeting what your life looks like

10:35

when it's different than what you anticipated. So

10:37

whether that's how far apart and age your kids

10:39

are or when you thought

10:41

you would be having kids, just

10:44

there's grief that comes with, you know, with delicate

10:46

touch. Suffering is either having someone you

10:48

don't want or not having someone you do. So

10:51

just looking around me, like, this isn't what I

10:53

expected for my life or my family. This is what

10:55

I planned for. This isn't what should have been

10:57

according to when I took pregnancy test.

11:00

Those are all things that they

11:02

might go through. And that is just

11:04

a very small amount, you know,

11:07

beyond marriage complication and friends stuff

11:09

and which may be well good to touch on some of that.

11:11

Well, Adi, just we really appreciate you

11:14

walking us through all

11:16

of that. And like you said,

11:18

we're confident it's different. We're

11:21

every single mom. And yet, I'm sure

11:23

it's also comforting to know that

11:25

the things that a

11:27

woman experiences after a

11:29

miscarriage are not,

11:31

you know, unique to

11:34

her or she's not the only one, perhaps the better

11:36

way to put it. She's not the only one. Who's

11:38

ever felt this or experienced this.

11:40

Yeah. I'm sure there is some comfort in

11:42

knowing that a lot of these things as hard

11:44

as they are are normal and

11:48

they are how we respond to

11:50

things that are incredibly sad and traumatic

11:52

and grievous and affect our bodies. And

11:55

another implication sometimes

11:58

is perhaps on a

12:00

mom's walk with the Lord. I

12:02

mean that's true of all different types of

12:04

suffering. When we experience something

12:06

that is scary or

12:08

sad or traumatic, it

12:10

impacts us in every way kind

12:12

of like you were saying. So can you help us

12:14

understand what kinds of questions and

12:16

doubts about god miscarriage

12:19

might bring up for a mother, and then

12:21

how does the gospel provide hope

12:24

in the midst of

12:24

that? Writing a book on pregnancy loss

12:26

has given me the opportunity to hear from

12:28

lots of women. And this actually,

12:31

these questions seem way more consistent

12:34

regardless of someone's experience. And I think it's

12:36

because The experience of

12:38

death in the case of pregnancy loss

12:40

is so deeply personal. It's

12:42

so intimate because it happens inside

12:44

of you. And I think when death

12:46

occurs that way,

12:49

it's it just feels so

12:51

personal. And

12:54

so the questions that arose for me

12:56

that I hear a lot of women echo

13:00

are just, okay, either God

13:03

is fully in control or

13:05

he's not good or

13:07

he's good, but he's not fully

13:09

in control because this

13:12

suffering is irreconcilable. Like,

13:14

those two things just can't both

13:17

be true. That's the

13:19

most common question or frustration

13:22

that I've seen or experienced. That

13:25

one seems more intellectual than

13:28

there are other more emotional or

13:31

personal questions like, okay, does God not

13:33

see Does he not care?

13:35

Does he not love me? And

13:38

then there's really like exposure of

13:41

a false doctrine too. For

13:43

me, they're definitely wise of,

13:45

you know, I was working with seventeen

13:48

moms at the time. Many of whom did not

13:50

want their babies And

13:53

I was just looking like, I

13:56

just don't understand. You know,

13:58

like, how do these cards get dealt? You

14:00

know, like we're we are praying

14:02

over the development of this child and

14:05

it doesn't keep growing. Like,

14:07

really? And and other people are

14:09

are conceiving in sin or don't

14:12

even really want this baby and their

14:14

baby keeps growing. Like, what is

14:16

the point of praying? You know, it's just very,

14:19

very frustrating and confusing.

14:22

I mean, you're asking how does gospel provide

14:25

hope. I think saying those things

14:27

out loud feels sacrilegious, but it's

14:29

really an active faith to speaker questions.

14:32

Because we acknowledge God to be big enough to

14:34

handle them. We

14:36

acknowledge him to be trustworthy with our souls.

14:39

And it's really courageous to say there's

14:41

things where I know you've threatened and spoken so

14:43

much about doubt. But it's

14:46

really scary. I think sometimes we're like,

14:48

man, this is slippery slope. If I start asking these questions,

14:50

where might it lead me? I might waste my faith in the

14:52

process, but it's so important to

14:54

voice them, to read, to ask

14:56

for prayer, and help. Because

14:58

really this is just it's just really

15:00

human to think these things. And

15:03

you can read the songs and find great company, and

15:05

frustration, and existential questions. So

15:08

I think scripture obviously is

15:10

really helpful and community

15:12

remaining tethered and seeking

15:15

answers. And bringing

15:17

your questions to God rather than processing

15:19

them away from him because the more

15:22

we pound on his chest

15:24

I think our hands just sort of open to receive

15:26

answers or open in resignation, like,

15:29

well, this just can't be known, and there's

15:31

still comfort in your arms. And I

15:33

think when we don't go to hand with questions, we

15:35

deny ourselves that comfort. So

15:38

I would say scripture is is really helpful.

15:40

You look at the life of Joseph or the wife Paul

15:42

and how much they suffered and how much God

15:44

used it or even maybe

15:47

more relevant like the instances

15:49

of fertility and

15:51

infertility throughout structure and

15:54

the way that God uses the stories

15:56

of these women that we see so frustrated

15:59

by longing, who may or may not have experience,

16:01

we don't know, but it could be encompassed within,

16:04

you know, the the barren

16:06

womb that we hear about. But God uses

16:09

all these women and they're stories to

16:11

bring about the plan of redemption, to

16:13

bring about messiah. You know, the women in

16:15

his mind that it had struggled with

16:18

with issues surrounding childbirth. So

16:21

I think we can see even though we're on

16:23

this side of those Bible stories,

16:26

how God still uses our

16:28

pain and are

16:31

suffering. And the death

16:33

of the babies that die within our bodies

16:37

to accomplish his redemptive purposes

16:39

somehow. And there are promises for

16:41

our suffering in scripture. There are promises

16:43

for our pain and they're really beautiful ones.

16:46

So I think it's just

16:48

really important for us to to

16:50

stick with what scripture actually says.

16:53

To claim things as promises that

16:55

are actually promises. And

16:57

this is the danger I think of like the rainbow baby

17:00

conversation where it's oh, you'll get your rainbow.

17:02

That's not I mean, it's not promised. It's

17:04

just not promised, but there are beautiful and

17:06

rich and better promises

17:09

in scripture, and that's what we have to link to.

17:11

Is it okay? Maybe we can't reconcile

17:14

how we can be good and allow these things to happen.

17:17

But we know he has a plan. We know he's at

17:19

work. And we know that he declares himself

17:21

to be good and trustworthy. And

17:24

so that's I mean, we just have to press into

17:26

his promises concerning himself and his

17:28

his revelation of his character. The

17:31

ultimate way though that the gospel brings

17:33

hope in our suffering is that we

17:36

have the competence is we ask the question, like, oh,

17:38

why isn't God doing anything about this? Or

17:40

why hasn't he done anything about this?

17:43

We can look to the cross center that he has.

17:46

By sending his sign to redeem or suffering,

17:48

which looks a lot of different ways on Earth, but ultimately

17:50

we know we'll be complete when

17:53

we are freed from the presence of sin and

17:55

the presence of death in

17:57

the end, you know, at at the

17:59

day of the award. And so that's the

18:01

hope we have is that Christ

18:03

came to readying, suffering. So

18:05

when we suffer, even if it sends us into

18:07

a place of doubt, ultimately, it should be

18:09

the thing that increases our

18:11

faith and and causes

18:14

us to more than anything long for Christ's

18:16

return because this is what he came to

18:18

undo. He came to triumph over

18:20

death. So we can say, Merinata,

18:23

come more Jesus with more longing

18:25

than ever when we experience

18:27

death. And we can have that hope

18:29

that doesn't put us to shame. Ugh.

18:31

Yeah. We're over here. Praise hands. Just

18:35

just so grateful for that hope. No matter

18:38

everyone's individual sorrows and suffering, desires,

18:40

hope for all of us. And I'm so grateful

18:43

that you shared that. Can

18:45

you talk us through a little bit about

18:48

some of the guilt or

18:50

shame that a mom might experience when

18:52

her body seems to be failing

18:54

her with a

18:55

child. What hope does scripture

18:57

offer her in that area. Yeah.

18:59

I'm just asking for y'all's questions.

19:02

They're so insightful and I think show your

19:04

care for your listeners that are walking through

19:06

this. I think There are a couple different kinds

19:08

of guilt that can emerge with with miscarriage.

19:11

One is guilt in the case of simple conception.

19:13

Or or guilt

19:16

in sort of maybe

19:18

even a woman has had an abortion in

19:20

the past and then come to faith or then gotten

19:23

married. And then maybe she's continually

19:25

losing babies. Maybe this is her first baby she's

19:27

lost, but there's just something in her mind that's like

19:29

this is a punishment for

19:32

something I've done. So for that kind

19:34

of guilt, I mean,

19:36

there is no condemnation for those who are in

19:38

Christ Jesus. Right? Like, if you are in Christ,

19:41

Christ has fully absorbed the penalty

19:43

for your sin, and there is no

19:45

there is no wrath left for you from the

19:47

hand of a God for anything you have done or

19:49

will ever do. So I'm

19:51

glad that we dealt with that. You just

19:53

don't have to worry about that. There

19:55

are consequences for sin.

19:57

But god is not in the bitterness of punishing

20:00

his children for his sin. He disciplines

20:02

those he loves, but this is not

20:04

an instance of being punished. That's

20:07

just very clear in scripture with the way doc doc

20:09

deals with his children. But there's also,

20:11

I think and this

20:13

is harder to talk about. But there's

20:15

also guilt in the case of carelessness

20:19

or harmful decisions, you know. And

20:22

when you go to the doctor and and tell

20:24

when you're pregnant, you know, they give you all

20:26

of these rules about deli meat and whatever.

20:29

And it's endless. I mean, you can't even keep

20:31

track of them. I thought you have to have since work degree

20:33

and pregnancy to be able to follow the

20:35

rules. But a woman immediately

20:37

wonders it's human to say

20:40

what did I do to cause this? And

20:43

in in many cases, the answer is nothing.

20:46

You know, drug addicts have healthy babies all

20:48

the time. That that are fully formed

20:50

and come out of the way I'm crying. The

20:53

reality is, like, what happens

20:55

happens? And the providence will

20:57

guide, and it's not always result

21:00

of something you did or didn't do. But in some

21:02

cases, it In some

21:04

cases, guilt might be founded. And

21:06

I think that's worth mentioning because

21:09

there's ministry for it, which

21:11

is that Christ

21:14

came to redeem our

21:16

simple choices. Enter

21:18

and to redeem our our simple selves. And

21:21

so there is no sin that

21:23

his grace is not being enough to

21:25

cover no matter the consequence,

21:27

even if it results in the deck of another person.

21:30

There's nothing we can do that he won't

21:32

hold out forgiveness for. There's

21:34

no testimony that he can't use

21:36

for the sake of his glory. And

21:38

that I mean, what better absolution for guilt

21:40

than the author

21:42

of justice telling you that you're

21:44

okay. Because of the actions of his

21:46

son. And then you know you mentioned

21:49

shame. Then this one is so sad and

21:51

hard for me if I could shame over your

21:53

body. And I think they're,

21:55

for a long time, I've heard, like, oh, motherhood is woman's

21:58

highest calling. And so when we

22:00

it it think we wrestle with these questions.

22:03

Is something about me deficient? You

22:05

know, but we are affected

22:07

by the vol. And

22:10

we're human. We're just

22:12

human. Our bodies are limited. Like, if I

22:14

if I got on the floor and try to do first steps right now at some

22:16

point, I'm gonna give can't do push ups for eternity

22:19

because my biceps are limited. Like, we

22:21

just are we're limited. Our bodies are limited.

22:23

They're affected by the fall. And

22:25

we can trust god's sovereignty over our

22:28

bodies. But think it's important as the leaders

22:30

that we are only

22:32

ashamed of things that are actually shameful.

22:35

And humanity is not one of them.

22:38

So if if you wanna repent of your sin,

22:40

that's fine, but you don't have to repent of

22:42

your body. Or the things that you

22:44

can't control. And then lastly,

22:47

Shane over grief is another one I think is

22:49

really common. Like, And part

22:51

of my childhood story is just hearing a

22:53

word you're making mountains out of molehills. And

22:56

I heard it in my grief so often.

22:58

In the wake of MiscarriageAn you're making a mountain out

23:00

in long You know, we're nine months out from this thing. You're

23:02

still crying all the time. Like, what's wrong with you? Get

23:04

over it. But I I love

23:06

and have have drawn a lot of strength

23:09

and had a lot of camaraderie with

23:11

the sawness in Psalm twenty three where he walks

23:14

through the value of the shadow of death. And

23:16

I think it's it's sweet counsel for

23:18

us to follow in his footsteps and not

23:20

run-in that place because

23:22

the war does a special thing grief

23:25

in our hearts and lives that

23:27

if we're rushing past it or trying to suppress

23:29

it, I think we don't get to experience, which is

23:31

his comfort, which his word tells us, when we

23:33

receive the comfort of the word, we can then come

23:35

for others. So I would encourage

23:38

the woman and feel shame over her 04.

23:40

To not listen to a society

23:42

that tells us that life in the womb doesn't matter

23:45

or isn't a big deal. And

23:47

to really press into the work

23:49

the word wants to do in her in

23:51

her grief and to instead of running

23:53

to a place of shame, run to a place of comfort.

23:55

And receive from him because the more we receive

23:57

is comfort, the more we're able to give

23:59

it. And that's a special work that he

24:01

is gonna do. It's a special way that he uses

24:03

our 04 on earth. It's so helpful

24:06

to hear you process it

24:08

that way and to break it down

24:10

into all these different

24:13

categories or experiences women

24:15

might be having? And

24:17

just to talk about how God's

24:19

grace applies

24:22

in every single situation and that

24:24

there's non situation outside

24:27

of god's grace and

24:29

comfort in too far from

24:31

his mercy or, you know,

24:34

I just I just love that about the

24:37

gospel that truly are

24:39

no matter what and even if

24:42

they're all covered by what

24:44

of the cross and and

24:46

God welcomes us to Christ in whatever

24:48

situation it is that we're facing and that he gives

24:51

us even ministry in that

24:53

as we are or two. So what a beautiful

24:55

truth -- Mhmm. -- to think on

24:57

and, you know, as we're talking

24:59

about grief and MiscarriageAn

25:03

one of the things that might

25:05

come up for for women as they're experiencing

25:07

this is friends along

25:09

way that are

25:11

announcing pregnancies, family

25:14

members. You've already talked on this show several

25:16

times about like you're you're doing ministry

25:19

with young women who don't even want

25:21

their babies. So how do you deal

25:24

with the envy that could

25:26

come up as you see other

25:28

pregnant women or women with newborns

25:30

or women who you find out they're pregnant

25:33

when you are still

25:35

grieving a very real loss.

25:37

I wanna first just

25:39

make a distinction that

25:42

not any negative emotion

25:44

we experience and reaction to someone

25:46

else's pregnancy or holding of a newborn

25:48

is envy. Because

25:51

in the same way that the side of blood can

25:53

be triggering seeing

25:56

a wound that holds life, can

25:59

stir up heart emotions just

26:01

because you're sad, you know?

26:04

And your longing is not wrong.

26:06

Not sinful. Like longing for

26:08

a baby isn't wrong. You know, it's

26:10

only at the point where becomes an idol or takes

26:12

the point of that takes the place of Chrysler

26:15

part that it becomes percent. So

26:17

I would say like a word

26:19

of grace and an encouragement of

26:21

self compassion to the person who is triggered

26:23

by friends of theirs. I think that can

26:25

really easily lead us to Shane too, ungodly

26:27

Shane. But I love

26:29

the word of the words of Abigail Dodds. I hear

26:31

these all the time in my mind. She said, we

26:33

have to be careful not to

26:36

allow another person's blessing

26:39

to become our hardship. And

26:41

I think that's a good word and it is

26:43

one that drives us to the holy spirit

26:45

to ask her help because it is hard.

26:48

You know, so what does that look like practically? I

26:50

think We have to be Grieve

26:53

is not sin, but it is not it's also

26:55

not a license to sin. And

26:57

so we have to be willing to do that work about

27:00

word, search me, and know my heart, try

27:02

me, and test my thoughts even if we're breathing,

27:04

to say, like, I don't want to sin

27:07

even in this really sensitive time.

27:09

So to help us discern what is a trigger

27:12

and what is sinful

27:14

resentment or

27:17

covetousness. Because we don't wanna break

27:19

his law. So a great

27:21

example of this comes to mind for me.

27:24

My sister and I were three weeks apart

27:26

when we lost our second baby. And

27:28

this is years ago, I still care

27:30

up because it was so sad and so painful.

27:32

She's my dearest friend. And

27:34

it's very rare that I

27:37

see her son with my

27:39

kids. And don't think of the baby we lost

27:41

because it's that is the exact place

27:43

that they would be in age differentiation, you

27:45

know. But The

27:48

grace that God gave me that

27:50

enabled us to really enjoy our

27:53

friendship still is allowing

27:55

me to view the life of my

27:57

nephew as

27:59

evidence of his mercy to

28:01

allow life to flourish in a fallen

28:04

world. Do you know what a miracle it

28:06

is, but this side of what happened in the garden,

28:08

there is life at all. And

28:11

so, you know, My

28:13

baby's death is a is a result

28:15

of the fall, but his fluorescein

28:17

is evidence of death's grace. And

28:20

I can look at it and still celebrate

28:22

it even if it wasn't what was in my room.

28:24

You know? So think that

28:27

that is It takes a deep

28:29

trust in the sovereignty of God

28:31

and in the goodness of God to

28:33

be able to look at the reception of

28:35

others. Or the or

28:37

the gifts that they receive and

28:39

be able to call them good because we

28:41

view him as our reference point and not ourselves.

28:45

That her story is not my story. He's doing

28:47

a work in his in her life. That's not the work

28:49

he's doing in mind. But the collective

28:51

work he's doing is the work of redemption.

28:54

And so we can have confidence that even if we don't

28:56

see all the pieces, he's at work.

28:59

So, yeah, I think we just have to remain

29:01

sensitive to the

29:02

spirit. And for those

29:04

tricky places where we don't know if it's in or not,

29:08

just open our hands and ask them to cover it and

29:10

to help us that's

29:13

really helpful, Abby. And I think really

29:15

great truth just to to to share for anyone

29:17

who's struggling for through comparison and

29:19

through MD, and we all are facing things

29:21

that we see others have and we

29:23

do not. And it is hard, but

29:25

I really appreciate the truth of just seeing

29:27

things like flipping them upside down and the upside

29:30

down kingdom that we're in -- Yeah. -- of

29:32

of recognizing the graces and the ways

29:34

that things aren't as

29:36

they should be in some ways.

29:39

And it's more that that life does exist

29:41

at all and that there are good things at all. And

29:43

so that is just a really a huge

29:45

paradigm shift that I'm I'm sitting over here still

29:47

chewing on, so I really appreciate that. And, you

29:51

know, something I know with with grief And

29:53

I know with miscarriage, there are a lot of dates

29:56

and milestones that come with. And

29:58

there's, of course, the day that you conceive, the

30:00

day that you lose your child, the day

30:03

that your child was supposed to be born that

30:05

you were anxiously waiting for and

30:07

probably more in there

30:09

that I can't even predict or Christmas is and

30:11

just so many things that I'm

30:14

sure a mom is thinking about and brings

30:16

to mind that what

30:18

should have been or what that child. And

30:21

so Can you walk us through a little

30:23

bit of just some good advice for how

30:25

to handle those difficult dates or what

30:27

to do on those

30:27

milestones? I'm so glad you bring this

30:29

up. I think the hardest is the first year

30:32

because immediately we start making plans,

30:34

right, for, like, car seats or whatever. And that's

30:36

and that's why stewardship that's not getting

30:38

ahead of yourself or, you know, you make preparation

30:40

for what's to come in wisdom. Like

30:44

for us, I remember I was have a really big belly

30:46

at Halloween, and we had planned a family

30:48

costume. It was really hard for

30:50

me when October came, and we couldn't do

30:52

the family costume. Because my

30:54

value wasn't as big as we thought that it would

30:56

be. And that was a really hard day because

30:58

it was flat, you know.

31:02

But conversely, the the weeks following

31:04

were really hard because my thought it was still big and it

31:06

was supposed to be black because there

31:08

was no baby anymore. And It

31:10

just is hard. There's dates

31:12

come up like like all of the ones

31:14

that you mentioned, but I think a couple

31:16

words of advice. One, I

31:18

would process those milestones

31:21

through prayer, you know, and just

31:23

honesty with the word. This is

31:25

not what I thought this day would look like.

31:28

This is the day that you are angry. Should

31:32

be is a dangerous phrase.

31:35

It's what would be in his

31:38

in his province, in his good plan

31:40

for your life. And so I

31:42

think we can wrestle knowing

31:45

that he's good and and and

31:48

and wrestle knowing that he cares. So we

31:50

can go to him with our sorrow and

31:52

also ask him to help us trust

31:55

his will. And

31:57

there's difficult dates that don't look like they that

31:59

they would. I think, also, I would I would

32:01

counsel women to process

32:04

their stays with remembrance and

32:06

by making space, by

32:09

best friend, lost her

32:11

baby girl a couple

32:13

of years ago at twenty

32:15

one weeks. And

32:18

they are careful to commemorate her.

32:20

And to remember her, they do a special

32:22

thing. Is it family on her

32:25

delivery date? And

32:27

they remember her by

32:30

making space for her and also

32:32

by having time at Thanksgiving for her.

32:35

I think that's something that isn't isn't really common

32:37

in this in this type of loss. But

32:39

to thank God for the lives of these babies.

32:42

However, brief they may have been, when

32:44

I MiscarriageAn,

32:47

secret to my own. And so it's marked

32:49

by the calendar anyway, you know, like, I'm

32:51

always seeing some briars and so and it takes

32:53

me sort of back to that place

32:55

I always try to to make that

32:58

time by time of Thanksgiving for

33:00

the life of my baby and for

33:02

what God has done. Through the

33:04

wake of this baby. Yeah.

33:06

I think holding space,

33:08

practicing your membranes, offering

33:10

thanksgiving, and just processing

33:13

and prayer. That's how I would counsel people

33:15

to approach those states. What

33:17

helpful practical tips

33:20

and even

33:22

just like you're saying making

33:24

space. I think so

33:27

often, you know, even as you've had this conversation

33:29

and other conversations, there is a sense

33:31

of I need to be over this

33:33

by now. And, know,

33:37

I don't I don't have I'm already busy. I

33:39

don't have space And so

33:41

even giving permission to

33:45

know in advance when

33:48

Cinco Di Mayo comes up, I'm

33:50

going to need space that day,

33:53

whatever that looks like, to

33:55

praise, to remember, to

33:58

be sad is

34:00

so helpful because

34:02

I know different types of 04 that I've walked

34:04

through. Sometimes it sneaks up on me.

34:06

And then I And it was a special

34:08

day or it was a doctor's appointment day

34:10

or whatever. And I just think, you know,

34:13

I kinda could have known that that was gonna hit

34:16

me today, maybe not in this way, but it's

34:18

helpful to think, no, I could

34:20

make space those

34:21

days. And I'm Right? So that could happen.

34:24

You know, it's funny too. It weighs my body

34:26

always kind of nerves. Like, even if before

34:28

I see this embrace and stuff, I'll get, like, a little

34:30

weepy. Like, in early May and just

34:32

don't really know why. And then I see and

34:35

so the calendar can really be a kindness to

34:37

ourselves even if we think

34:39

Yeah. It's not coming. I

34:41

think it's so fascinating. This is like an aside,

34:44

but so fascinating how our bodies respond

34:46

to things before we're even

34:49

really aware sometimes of

34:51

what we're thinking or feeling. That's like

34:53

a whole mother show we could have. But it's

34:55

a gift though. It's a gift. I

34:57

know. Okay.

34:59

So switching gears a little bit.

35:02

Abby, do you find that there is

35:05

a survivors guilt. I

35:07

don't know if that's the right term or not.

35:09

For moms that go

35:12

on have a

35:14

pregnancy deliver

35:16

that baby after

35:18

they've had one or maybe recurrent

35:21

MiscarriageAn. And If

35:23

so, can you just tell us about that and

35:25

provide some encouragement for

35:27

those moms as they

35:29

both I'm assuming you're just like rejoice

35:31

in the life that they

35:32

have, but then also they're still grieving

35:35

the loss that they experienced. Yeah.

35:37

This wasn't the case for me, but

35:40

I think it's especially complicated. I'm

35:42

so glad you brought this up. Like, when you're when

35:45

you have a child that wouldn't exist, if

35:47

your other child is alive, that

35:50

is weird. Like, that's really

35:52

complicated and hard to process. And

35:54

this friend of mine that I mentioned to

35:57

lost the baby girl. Like, she really experienced

35:59

that having a baby girl. And even

36:01

at the ultrasound, where she found

36:03

out. It was a baby girl. She had guilt because she was

36:05

like, oh, there's a bit easier as a boy because I

36:07

feel like I'm replacing her. You

36:09

know, and then I mean, one way I counseled

36:12

her was just like, you are not god. Like,

36:15

you're not replacing anybody. He

36:18

is not bringing over who's coming out of your

36:20

of your room and who's growing in there. So

36:23

receive, you know, receive as

36:25

a gift. And I think in the same way

36:27

at when we consider envy and

36:29

guard against it, and we have to say like, okay,

36:32

that woman's story is not my story.

36:34

We have to realize that these babies are

36:36

unique individuals. With with

36:38

number days to date days that are numbered

36:40

by a loving god and a

36:42

wise god and so we have to treat them

36:45

as as different people. And

36:47

really give them that dignity in

36:50

the same way. I wouldn't compare my living children because

36:53

it's so dangerous. Don't compare

36:55

them. Like, obviously, they are related, but

36:57

their lives are distinct. So we can

36:59

hold space for them. But

37:02

in in the case where you if

37:04

it feels like you're not holding

37:06

space to grieve the baby you lost because

37:09

your womb is filled with with

37:11

someone else, you can hold space in your

37:13

heart even if there's not space in your

37:15

womb. And I

37:17

think we as a society just need to get

37:19

better at tension.

37:21

You know, like, we can rejoice and be sorrowful

37:24

at the same time. And that really helps us

37:26

be better, more faithful members of community.

37:28

You know, Roman Swaffe, like, rejoicing

37:31

and weeping all at once. That's always happening

37:33

all at once, and it's possible for for you

37:35

to be rejoicing and weeping. Odd

37:38

ones. So, yeah, it's not

37:40

just loyal, and

37:43

I think you can trust the sovereignty of God

37:45

over the timing of their

37:46

lives. In the days of their lives.

37:49

That's a huge encouragement, Abby,

37:51

and just just

37:53

good true humor, all of this I

37:56

am curious if as we close here,

37:58

you have any final encouragement

38:00

that you feel like you would want to just share

38:03

with a mom who has experienced

38:05

miscarriage and is perhaps still in

38:07

the thick of

38:08

grief. What would you say to her? A

38:10

few things. First, don't rush

38:12

your grief. Like, God

38:14

just lead you through it in

38:16

his sovereign goodness and in his timing. Two,

38:20

God uses your pain. She'll

38:22

use her pain. Nothing is wasted. And

38:25

then you can't make grace. And thirdly,

38:29

I would just encourage her that

38:32

god's plan of redemption cannot

38:34

be That

38:36

as we place our hope in Christ,

38:39

even if we have felt swish or

38:41

rejoicing over two lines and

38:43

walking into an ultrasound room where there's no

38:45

heartbeat. We're telling people we're

38:47

pregnant, and then having

38:50

to follow-up and look over

38:52

our text to see who we need to let know that

38:54

we're actually not, you know, if we've periods.

38:56

That sort of shame or feeling to be jerked around.

38:59

That's a plan of redemption. It

39:01

cannot be MiscarriageAn It

39:04

is a hope when we put our hope in Christ

39:06

and his return. It's a hope that will not put us

39:08

to shame. So if I

39:10

could, I would close just by reading

39:12

over her Isaiah chapter

39:15

sixty five

39:16

verses seventeen through twenty five. For

39:19

behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth,

39:21

and the former things shall not be remembered

39:23

or come to mind. I'll be glad and rejoice

39:25

forever in that which I

39:27

will create For behold, I create a new

39:30

Jerusalem to be a joy and her people

39:32

to be a gladness. I will rejoice in

39:34

Jerusalem and be glad in my people. No

39:37

more shall be heard in it, the sound of weeping,

39:39

and the cry of distress. No more

39:42

shall there be in it, an infant who lives

39:44

by few days. Or

39:46

an old man who does not fill out his

39:48

days. For the young man shall

39:51

die a hundred years old and the

39:53

sinner a

39:54

hundred years old, it shall be a curse. They shall

39:56

build houses and inhabit them. They

39:59

show plant vineyards and eat their

40:01

fruit. No. I've

40:03

got inventory. They will yeah.

40:05

Been here to eat the fruit. Our efforts won't

40:08

be frustrated, our onions will be disappointed. And

40:10

babies won't die too young. That

40:12

is what Christ came to do, and

40:14

where we can settle and rest.

40:31

Hi. My name is Sarah Taylor, and I'm a part

40:33

of the risen mother community because I

40:36

crave gospel community amongst other

40:39

moms to know that we're not in this alone

40:41

and to help our gays be set

40:43

upward toward an internal view of all

40:46

things so that we can see Christ working

40:48

in us by his spirit even as we do laundry

40:50

and clean, and I'm also a pastor's

40:53

wife and a working mom as

40:55

a professor of English. And just in

40:57

all those things, I'd be able to love women

41:00

well to grow in this community, to re

41:02

remove insecurities and strive

41:05

to be more like Christ together in this

41:08

battle. And as we're in the trenches

41:10

together, that we would grow in love and joy, and

41:12

this is part of that. So I'm thankful

41:14

for this community.

41:25

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