0:00

Motherhood is hard.

0:08

One second,

0:10

we think we're doing a good enough job, and the next

0:13

we feel like the worst mom on the planet.

0:15

Which is why we need the refreshing truth of

0:17

the gospel to be repeated over and over,

0:20

giving us hope in the everyday moments. So

0:22

mama, whether you're sipping cold coffee or doing

0:25

a sink bowl of dishes, we hope you find

0:27

truth, encouragement, and laughter

0:29

here. This is the Risen Motherhood

0:31

Podcast. Thanks for joining

0:34

us.

0:41

Hey

0:41

friends, Emily here. Welcome back to

0:43

another episode of Risen Motherhood. If you're

0:45

just joining us, we're almost to the end of our Grease

0:48

series where we've been exploring different sorrows

0:50

and hardships in motherhood. On today's

0:52

episode, Laura and I are joined by Nancy

0:54

Guthrie as she shares her story of infant

0:56

loss, along with the healing, hope, and encouragement

0:59

she's found in the Lord throughout the years.

1:01

Nancy teaches the Bible at her home church

1:03

in Franklin, Tennessee, as well as at conferences

1:05

around the country and internationally, including

1:08

her biblical theology workshop for women. She's

1:11

the author of numerous books and the host of

1:13

the Help Me Teach the Bible podcast at the Gospel

1:15

Coalition. She and her husband founded

1:17

respite retreats for couples who have faced the death

1:19

of a child and are co-hosts of the Grief

1:22

Share video series. You can find Find out more

1:24

about Nancy, including links to her books and

1:26

the respite retreats in today's show notes. Ahead

1:29

of this show, we do want to let you know that we're discussing

1:31

the topic of infant loss in a very raw

1:33

and transparent manner. We're so

1:36

grateful that you're tuning into the podcast today,

1:38

and we do pray that it offers

1:40

you hope and comfort. But we also

1:42

want to encourage you to exercise wisdom

1:44

in deciding if this content is the best fit

1:46

for you in your current season and stage of processing.

1:49

This episode isn't meant to give personal advice

1:52

or be a substitute for professional help. So

1:54

we hope you'll reach out to a trusted friend, mentor,

1:57

counselor, or medical professional that can speak

1:59

into your mind.

2:00

your specific circumstances as needed

2:03

as part of our grief series of we're grateful to be

2:05

able to offer a free digital download that

2:07

we created with our friends at every moment holy

2:09

this resource includes eight liturgies for

2:11

moms walking through grief you can find

2:14

all the info for how to get your free download

2:16

ad prison mother her dot com forward slash grief

2:19

finally were so excited to share that we're launching

2:22

are in book clubs again this year we're

2:24

going all out this summer and sign ups

2:26

are open next week on monday april tenth

2:29

we've heard so many of you ask for an

2:31

easy all in one journal to accompany the resin

2:33

motherhood book and it is here the

2:35

risen mother had died a journal releases on may

2:37

second twenty twenty three and includes everything

2:40

you've asked for a beautifully decorated space

2:42

to answer questions apply each chapters

2:44

teaching to your own life and record thoughts

2:46

and prayers as you process at all lore

2:49

and i are also

2:49

recording a series of videos that will provide

2:52

a book club leaders for

2:53

all of the info on book clubs and were

2:55

to preorder your journal had or show notes or

2:57

visit reason motherhood dot com forward slash

2:59

book clubs okay let's jump

3:02

into did a show

3:09

on the nc thanks so much for joining us unreason

3:12

motherhood today well think you guys

3:14

for inviting me i always love talking to you

3:16

guys i know we love have

3:18

a new back or isn't mother had one of the few people

3:20

that we have had two times on the show

3:23

and that we know you have owns it

3:25

wasn't a share so we're excited to talk with you

3:28

and can you just give us

3:30

a quick flyover of your family

3:32

and what you're up to these days just in case

3:34

there might be somebody listening has not familiar with your

3:36

work certainly i live

3:39

in nashville tennessee

3:39

with my husband david and

3:43

my husband david has a company

3:45

he publishes kids musicals

3:47

for the church company go

3:50

little big stuff music so they

3:52

create i get the christmas musical every

3:54

year for like four through sixth

3:56

graders to perform and

3:58

our son matt who thirty

4:00

He doesn't live here,

4:02

but he lives in Nashville and he

4:04

works for David, which is really fun.

4:07

So that means that most days here at our house,

4:09

you know, the three of us are able to have lunch together,

4:11

which is really fun. And I

4:13

spend most of my time preparing

4:16

and then teaching. And

4:19

a lot of those become books as well. So

4:22

my biggest thing over the since about

4:24

the fall of 2019 is to travel around to offer the

4:28

biblical theology workshop for women.

4:31

So I've done about 50 of those since the

4:33

fall of 2019. This last

4:35

year and into next year, I'm doing a lot internationally

4:38

as well as a lot domestically.

4:41

And so it's just so much

4:44

fun for me to go places and

4:46

have women come who are hungry to know

4:49

their Bibles better and have a better

4:51

sense of how the Bible fits together.

4:52

And as I

4:55

present some basic tools of understanding

4:57

the storyline of the Bible, getting a good

4:59

grasp on it, and being

5:02

able to trace themes that the divine

5:04

author has written into his book. These

5:07

events are just an explosion of joy.

5:09

When I go places, and if people

5:11

already love

5:14

Christ, and they love the word,

5:16

and then they get introduced to biblical theology,

5:18

it causes them to love him more as they see him

5:21

through new angles. So I just love doing that.

5:24

Well, we are grateful for and have benefited

5:27

from your work in that and your faithfulness

5:29

in that. And I know Lauren, I have both

5:31

personally done your Bible studies

5:34

and I'll never forget the one with the lamb

5:37

on the cover. The lamb of God. The

5:39

lamb of God. Yeah, seeing Jesus in

5:42

Exodus, Leviticus,

5:42

Numbers, and Deuteronomy. I

5:45

mean, I was just a young little 20-something

5:47

and just reading and just light bulbs were just going

5:50

off as you were sharing. So definitely

5:52

just God has been so gracious in using

5:55

you to point out those truths and Switching

5:58

gears here kind of abruptly.

6:00

We wanted to have you on

6:02

Risen Motherhood again to talk about a very

6:04

specific topic in

6:06

our grief series.

6:08

Because even though some people may be more

6:11

familiar with your recent writing and your Bible

6:13

studies, I think it's right that you

6:15

first got started writing after

6:17

a season of grief in your life.

6:20

So would you be willing to briefly share

6:23

your story of child loss and

6:26

just give us kind of the flyover of

6:28

what happened in those years. Certainly.

6:32

So when our son Matt was eight

6:34

years old,

6:35

I gave birth to a daughter named

6:37

Hope. And we

6:39

headed to the hospital anticipating

6:42

everything to be just

6:44

hunky dory

6:47

and not anticipating what would happen. And

6:49

that when Hope was born, immediately

6:52

the doctors noticed what they called a lot of little

6:54

things that weren't quite right.

6:56

She had club feet. She had a

6:58

real large soft spot. She

7:02

had extra skin on her neck.

7:04

Her hands turned slightly out

7:06

and she was very lethargic. She wasn't

7:08

holding her temperature or holding her weight

7:11

and she barely cried. And

7:13

so a geneticist

7:16

came and examined her. And so on her second day

7:18

of life, he came into our hospital room and

7:20

told us that he suspected Hope

7:22

had a rare metabolic disorder called Zellwecker

7:25

syndrome, something we had never

7:27

heard of. And most of your listeners probably haven't

7:30

heard of it. It meant that she

7:32

was missing this tiny subcellular

7:35

enzyme that you and I have in

7:37

every cell of our bodies. And

7:39

because of that, a

7:41

lot of damage had already

7:44

been done

7:44

to all of her major organs,

7:47

especially her liver and her kidneys

7:50

and her brain.

7:52

And the doctor told us that

7:54

there was no treatment and no

7:56

cure and that

7:59

most children with that. that syndrome live less

8:01

than six months. And

8:03

he handed to us two pages, Xerox

8:06

out of a medical textbook that had,

8:09

in very medical terms, everything that was

8:12

wrong in Hope's body and how

8:14

that would progress. And then

8:16

several post-mortem photos

8:19

of infants with that syndrome.

8:21

Which honestly, I couldn't look at those sheets

8:24

for about a week. it was like

8:27

too much reality to take in at

8:29

one time. So Hope

8:32

couldn't suck or swallow.

8:34

So there at the hospital, we learned how to feed her

8:36

with a tube. Hope

8:39

couldn't hear and she couldn't see. And

8:42

so in many ways her life

8:44

was very limited. She developed

8:47

seizures at about three months and we had

8:49

to medicate her for those. And

8:52

so while she didn't move much before, after

8:55

those began and we medicated her for those, she

8:57

didn't move much at all. And

9:00

so in so many ways, her

9:02

life was really difficult,

9:07

but at the same time, her life

9:09

was really rich. There's

9:12

something very special actually about

9:16

knowing that days

9:18

are numbered and that

9:20

her life would be short. And so

9:23

for me, it just really pushed

9:25

me

9:26

to make the most of every

9:29

day that we had with her. I

9:32

remember a couple of weeks in,

9:34

just it really hit me. It was like, I mean,

9:37

we know everybody's going to die at

9:39

some point, but this was different.

9:42

This was like, no, we

9:44

don't know how long we'll have with her. And

9:46

there was the reality of, it may be very

9:49

brief.

9:50

I realized, okay, so very soon either

9:53

I'm gonna go to her crib and find her dead her

9:55

dead or

9:57

she's going to die in my arms

9:59

and And both of those realities

10:02

were so difficult

10:05

for me. And honestly, they just inspired

10:07

a lot of fear. And

10:11

I remember in that time, though,

10:13

just having a sense of, you know what, I cannot

10:16

let myself get

10:18

overwhelmed with sadness now,

10:21

because if I do,

10:23

I will miss her life.

10:27

And then I'll regret that the rest of my life. And

10:31

so I just kind of thought I have the rest of my

10:33

life to be sad about

10:35

this. And so as much

10:37

as possible, we just tried to make the most of our

10:39

life. And honestly, you know,

10:42

the time was really rich. We

10:44

had more people in our home for

10:46

a meal than we've ever had. You know, people would say, I'll

10:48

make you a meal. We would say, well, bring enough

10:51

for yourself and have dinner with us.

10:54

because of what was

10:56

going on, our conversations

10:58

weren't trite. They

11:01

were significant, which

11:03

I think still, I just don't enjoy

11:05

small talk.

11:07

And, you know, we connected with people we had

11:10

never before. And

11:11

it was an amazing time in many ways.

11:14

But it was also incredibly difficult. And

11:16

And my main prayer

11:19

was, Lord,

11:22

just give me the grace to accept

11:24

the number of days that you give

11:26

to me with her. We had plenty of people

11:28

around us who were praying for a miracle and

11:31

were suggesting to us that if we really had

11:33

faith, we would be too.

11:35

But we just accepted

11:38

that to us, there was a sense that God had already

11:41

made a decision about her life. And

11:44

we knew how profoundly she was

11:46

impacted at the subcellular

11:49

level. And so our prayer was

11:51

just, Lord, give us the grace to

11:53

make the most of her days and to accept the

11:56

number of days that you give to us.

11:59

And the lord gave us one hundred

12:01

and ninety nine days with her and

12:04

then one night david got up in the

12:06

middle of the night to check on her and

12:08

she was cold to the touch

12:10

and he came over to

12:12

the bed and he just said to me she's gone

12:16

and done i'm

12:18

a person like i plan ahead and i work ahead

12:21

and i had this

12:23

idea somehow in my head

12:25

that maybe grief wouldn't

12:27

be as hard for me as

12:29

it seem to be for other people because

12:32

like i had known she was going to die and

12:35

i had been sad some during her life

12:37

and

12:38

he and i had this crazy idea that somehow

12:41

i was kind of getting some advance work

12:43

done that would

12:45

lighten the load once that day came

12:47

and grief just hasn't

12:49

worked out there

12:52

is a big difference between knowing

12:54

someone's going to die and

12:56

them is being gone

13:01

gone and i'm

13:04

so in those days that followed her death

13:06

only way to hot spreads describe

13:08

it is just such a profound

13:11

sense of sadness of

13:14

missing her

13:17

of disappointment

13:19

i had really looked forward

13:22

to having a daughter who

13:24

would grow old with me and be my

13:26

friend my old age and i

13:29

realized it wasn't going to get that so

13:32

i was just really sad

13:36

i remember standing

13:38

up about three months after hope died in

13:41

front of the acquire at our church and

13:44

i just said to them i'm not depressed

13:47

and

13:47

i'm not losing my faith

13:50

i'm

13:50

just sad and

13:53

i need some time and space

13:56

for you to let me be sad which

13:59

was a great gift that many

14:01

people gave me because the

14:04

heaviness of grief was

14:06

there. I often say it was like a boulder on

14:08

my chest, you know, that heaviness, like that sense

14:11

where I could just, I always felt like I could

14:13

just barely get my breath

14:16

because it was,

14:19

it was heavy for a long time. Thank

14:21

you for sharing with us, Nancy, that

14:23

it was so vulnerable

14:26

and so kind of you to let us even see

14:29

some of that and to hear some of that and how you

14:31

have, how you processed through that

14:33

and were there. And I just

14:35

can't imagine the sorrow that

14:38

would

14:39

probably still remains to this day. And

14:42

I'm curious if you could just help for any mom

14:44

who identifies much

14:46

too deeply with what you're sharing, would

14:48

you be able to talk through some of

14:50

the typical grief patterns that moms do

14:53

experience? We know obviously no two journeys

14:56

are the same, but are there some things

14:58

that you would say, hey, these are

15:00

some patterns that we sometimes see after

15:03

a mom has lost their child in

15:05

the midst of their grief that would be helpful

15:08

to know or be aware of? Yeah,

15:09

certainly. I think

15:12

a very significant thing for

15:14

moms is that

15:17

it's our grief that

15:19

keeps us feeling close to our child.

15:23

So there is a sense in which the grief is

15:25

in agony and at one

15:27

and the same time it's comfort. That

15:30

might sound crazy, but it's

15:33

true that We have the sense that if

15:35

we're not sad anymore, that

15:38

we feel the child slipping away

15:40

even further.

15:42

And so that can be a real tyranny

15:44

because it keeps us from wanting

15:46

to feel better. It keeps us from

15:50

wanting that load

15:52

and burden of grief to lighten

15:54

because it's

15:57

what keeps us feeling close to our child. and we're

15:59

so. desperate to feel close to

16:01

our child. So

16:05

I often tell moms,

16:09

you know, you're going to be sad for a while.

16:12

And it might get worse before it gets better.

16:15

But a day is going to come, at least

16:18

I hope it comes, that

16:22

you are willing to allow

16:25

grief to lessen its hold

16:28

on you because for

16:30

a while it's just so consuming. You

16:32

know, you see everything through that

16:35

lens

16:36

and you it's the first thing you think about in

16:38

the morning when you wake up and you remember

16:42

and you think about it through the day and it's

16:44

just so consuming.

16:47

But a day comes or at least

16:50

I would say it must come if

16:52

you want to have joy again.

16:56

And if you want

16:59

to have something to give away

17:01

to the living,

17:03

then a day has to come where

17:06

you are finally ready to kind of put

17:09

grief in a place. It's not like it disappears,

17:12

but it's just

17:14

like, it's almost like you say to the grief,

17:16

you know what, I recognize you're you're gonna be my companion

17:19

forever, but you're not in charge

17:20

anymore. And

17:23

I wanna live and I wanna have joy. And

17:26

I have maybe other children or

17:29

other people in my life that

17:32

I want to have

17:33

energy for. And

17:36

so I'm going to

17:38

stop giving so much of myself to

17:40

the grief

17:42

and give it to the living.

17:45

You come to a place, at least I

17:47

hope you do, where you realize

17:50

that

17:51

your child who has died

17:53

really can't gain anything

17:55

anymore from all

17:58

of the energy that you're pouring into the Greek.

18:01

but maybe there are other people who can you know

18:03

who can gain from that that that was really

18:05

the case for me ah

18:08

you know is i i had

18:09

my son matt and i

18:11

just realized at one point i'm

18:13

in when you have other children

18:16

for parents who have lost a child

18:19

he have to make that decision to

18:22

make sure that

18:25

you're living children know

18:27

that they're worth living for children

18:31

can sense that in a sense

18:33

they not only last a sibling but they lost their parents

18:35

because their parents are last forever to

18:37

grief and perhaps

18:39

the child who died gets idealized

18:42

and there's a big focus on honoring that

18:45

child remembering that child and it's

18:47

just so much

18:50

right and a child

18:52

can just think we'll i

18:54

understand mom and dad you be

18:56

sad about that but can

18:57

you not find any joy in the fact

19:00

that i am here

19:01

those are big challenging

19:03

things for grieving

19:06

moths express sharing

19:08

my dad and i think just

19:10

another question would be

19:13

how that affects i'm

19:16

a others relationship with god and

19:19

some of the the questions that might

19:21

arise where doubts that come

19:23

up did you have

19:25

any specific questions of of

19:27

down or struggled you wrestled with

19:30

out with them or do that season and

19:32

i had so many

19:34

questions at a

19:37

are so many questions

19:40

i wouldn't say that i i doubted god

19:44

and

19:44

i didn't struggle with anger toward god

19:47

i think i was really helps that beef

19:49

right before even in just a year or so

19:51

before hopes life and

19:53

death i

19:54

had really

19:55

i'd been working on a project

19:57

that was all about the sovereignty of god

20:00

And in the Bible study I was in, that was

20:02

emphasized. And so I went into

20:04

that with that solid foundation underneath

20:06

me that God is in control

20:08

and that

20:10

He is in control

20:12

for my good and for His glory. And

20:19

that's not that like all of that just answers

20:22

all the questions, But

20:25

I think, you know, having that solid

20:27

foundation underneath me,

20:29

that it was more like,

20:31

I know that's the answer. I've

20:33

got to figure out how to put the pieces together,

20:36

but I know underneath

20:38

all of this that there is that solidity

20:42

and that I can trust

20:44

him. And

20:46

so that was there for me. But

20:48

I think everybody who goes through grief has the same question,

20:51

and that's the question why. You

20:53

know, I told you about

20:55

the life and death of hope,

20:58

but the really stunning thing was that

21:00

a year and a half after

21:03

Hope died, even though we had taken surgical

21:05

steps to prevent another pregnancy, because

21:09

we then knew that both David

21:11

and I carry the recessive gene for

21:14

that syndrome, I

21:15

didn't have, after Hope died, I discovered

21:18

I was pregnant, which was

21:20

shocking to put it mildly

21:22

and scary. So

21:26

if, you know, if I had asked God why the first time

21:29

around, which I did, now

21:32

it was, well,

21:34

why again? Was

21:37

there something I was supposed to learn that first

21:39

time around that I didn't learn? I just

21:42

need like the remedial course. Or

21:45

is there

21:46

some purpose behind you

21:49

calling us

21:50

to do this again?

21:54

And honestly, you know, in those early days,

21:56

I was just like, wow, you're gonna

21:58

ask me to do this?

22:00

again, because after going through

22:02

prenatal testing, we knew we were gonna have another

22:04

child, a son this time, who would also have the fatal

22:07

syndrome.

22:08

I just remember saying to him, okay, Lord,

22:10

if you're gonna ask me to do this,

22:13

then I'm just begging

22:15

you to use it, accomplish

22:19

everything you intend in it

22:21

and through it, even if that's

22:24

just in me.

22:26

You see, I think a lot of times when

22:28

we have the questions why we

22:30

spend a lot of time looking outside

22:32

at circumstances. We're looking

22:34

for something good that comes

22:36

about as a result of the loss that

22:39

we can point to and that we

22:41

esteem to be good enough

22:44

to have required

22:46

our loss. We

22:49

look around for things in our circumstances

22:52

that we deem to be a

22:55

good enough thing to, that

22:57

we relate the lost to, and we want to be able

23:00

to say, oh, God was doing this. Like,

23:02

there's a sense in which we can't trust

23:05

that

23:06

He had a good purpose in it, unless

23:08

we can identify what it is. Even though

23:10

the scriptures basically just call us to trust Him. And

23:14

knowing that we may never see clearly

23:16

in this life,

23:18

the myriad of purposes He has

23:21

and has had in the way He,

23:23

in the way

23:24

he, you know, oversees

23:28

events in our lives and in

23:30

the world. But I came

23:32

to realize, okay, if I can't

23:34

see it in my circumstances to get an

23:36

answer to why,

23:38

and I'm not really looking for a philosophical

23:41

answer, I need a scriptural answer.

23:44

What is God doing? And so it really

23:46

sent me to the scriptures to

23:48

try to understand this. at this and

23:51

many people will say that you can't expect

23:54

to get an answer to why in

23:56

this lifetime. I actually don't

23:59

agree with that. I might not be able to

24:01

get those specific circumstantial

24:03

questions, but I can see

24:06

in the Scriptures, get a scriptural

24:08

answer to why. To me, the most significant

24:12

answer to the question, why have

24:14

I had two children born

24:17

with this fatal syndrome who each lived a short time? I

24:20

found the answer in

24:21

Genesis 3.50. In

24:25

Genesis 3, we see Adam

24:27

and Eve,

24:29

they rebel against God, and

24:31

because of that

24:32

sin, the impact

24:34

of sin,

24:35

the curse that comes

24:38

upon the serpent and the

24:41

ground that

24:43

impacts the man and the woman,

24:45

I see that's why

24:47

they're suffering in the world. But the beautiful

24:49

thing I discovered was not only

24:51

does Genesis 3.15 explain to me

24:53

why there is so much

24:55

suffering in the world as the result of sin. Even

24:59

the suffering, it's right there in Genesis 3.16,

25:02

that evil experience pain in

25:04

childbearing. And that's not just

25:07

the pain of labor and delivery.

25:09

That's the pain of birth defects and the pain of miscarriage

25:11

and stillbirth and the pain

25:14

of being a sinner, parenting

25:17

a sinful child in

25:19

this world. That's all the mixture

25:21

of pain in bearing children.

25:24

But not only do

25:26

I see the answer to why in terms of

25:28

the suffering,

25:30

but I see a sense of purpose and where

25:32

that's headed and hope because

25:34

right in there in Genesis 3.15,

25:37

where it talks about this conflict

25:39

that's gonna be between the offspring of

25:41

the serpent and the offspring of the woman, it

25:44

also says that there's

25:46

going to be an offspring of this woman at one point

25:49

who's going to

25:51

crush the head of evil, who's going to put

25:53

an end to evil and

25:56

suffering because of that evil.

25:58

And so.

25:59

So that to me was a beautiful thing

26:02

that I could see, I could get an answer to why.

26:04

Okay. Ultimately, why,

26:06

why have I had

26:08

two children who have born with this fatal syndrome?

26:10

I would say to you because the

26:13

impact of sin in

26:15

this world has permeated

26:17

all of creation that the curse

26:20

that came upon this world has impacted even

26:22

my genetic code

26:24

so that my genes don't work right. But

26:27

that also, that's not

26:29

the way it's going to be forever.

26:31

That I'm in this in-between time,

26:33

this in-between time when Christ

26:35

became a curse for us on the cross

26:38

is what Galatians 3.13 says

26:39

to us. So

26:41

He took this curse of sin upon Himself. But

26:44

now I'm in this in-between time between

26:46

when He accomplished everything on the cross to

26:49

deal with the curse and when He comes a second

26:51

time to eradicate

26:54

the world

26:55

of this curse. in Revelation 22,

26:58

3, that in the new creation it says, no longer

27:00

will anything be a curse.

27:03

That's when what was promised way back there in Genesis 3, 15 of

27:06

this one who will crush the head of the serpent, when

27:09

that's done for good and we

27:12

experience the impact. And so you and

27:14

I, we find ourselves in this world

27:17

where we can expect to experience loss. And

27:19

it doesn't mean

27:21

that God has abandoned us. It doesn't mean he's

27:23

mad at us. that he has failed us.

27:26

It means this is where we are in redemptive

27:28

history. We are waiting for

27:31

that impact of the curse to be fully

27:34

dealt with. And one day it will

27:36

be. I have no doubt

27:38

of that. So at

27:41

this point, I realize, okay,

27:43

I'm going to have a lifetime of separation

27:45

for my daughter hope and my son Gabe

27:48

and I often feel that profoundly.

27:51

Next week hope would be 24 and And

27:54

I feel it, you know, I wish she was

27:56

here. But I know...

28:00

The day is going to come when I'm going

28:02

to die, and they're going to put my body into the

28:04

ground to become turned back into dust.

28:07

And I

28:08

am going, my soul, my spirit

28:10

is going to go to be with Christ.

28:14

I'm going to enter into the presence of Christ.

28:17

And I believe hope will be there and Gabe will be

28:19

there. And it's going to be wonderful to see them.

28:22

But you know, that won't be the best thing.

28:24

The best thing

28:26

is that we're going to be together,

28:28

gazing at the beauty of Christ.

28:32

That's the best thing. That's

28:34

the thing to really look forward to. But yet

28:36

even then we'll still have something to look forward to.

28:39

We'll look forward to the day when Christ

28:41

returns because first Thessalonians

28:43

says that we're going to return with

28:45

Him. He's gonna call that dust of our

28:48

bodies out of the ground. And He's going

28:50

to give me and Hope and Gabe and

28:52

David and Matt and then my

28:54

soon to be daughter-in-law, Amanda. He's

28:56

going to give us, He's going

28:58

to, will be joined once again, body

29:00

and soul, and will be given bodies

29:03

that will be fit for living forever

29:05

with Him on

29:07

a renewed earth. And

29:09

that's the future that was set into motion,

29:12

even way back there in Genesis 3.15. And

29:15

that's where my hope is

29:17

set. And that brings

29:20

me joy and rest. and

29:23

rest. I believe

29:25

it's true, and it has the power

29:28

to... It

29:30

doesn't take away my grief, but

29:33

it shapes my grief. It gives me perspective

29:37

in the midst of my grief, so

29:40

that I can tell

29:42

myself the truth. When we're

29:44

grieving, we have all of

29:46

these voices that talk to us,

29:48

from inside ourselves and from our culture

29:51

and from all around us. And these

29:53

voices say things like, you will never be happy

29:55

again.

29:57

These voices say, you know, God is

29:59

done wrong by... you. And

30:02

we listen to what's said, but then we have to go, is that

30:04

true? Is it true?

30:06

Or is there some power

30:08

to push back on that? And so

30:12

I would say to someone who is grieving,

30:15

especially the loss of a child, the

30:17

loss of an infant, I know there's

30:19

a huge empty place

30:22

that you feel like can never get filled up.

30:25

And maybe you are wondering right now,

30:27

if are going

30:29

to hurt this much forever

30:34

because the pain is so great.

30:37

And I would say to you,

30:40

there's going to be a broken

30:42

place inside you

30:44

as you go through this life.

30:46

But that doesn't mean that

30:49

there's no possibility

30:51

for joy. That

30:54

doesn't mean that your grief always

30:59

has to be as heavy and controlling

31:02

as it is now. I

31:04

want to say to you that God

31:07

is a healer. He really

31:09

does heal. He heals brokenhearted

31:11

people. He

31:15

restores joy in

31:17

the midst of devastating sorrow.

31:21

And so I would say to you, especially

31:24

if it's early on, let yourself

31:27

be sad. Just let

31:29

all of those tears come out. Maybe find

31:31

a place in the house where everybody in the house doesn't

31:33

have to listen to your tears

31:35

because they love you and your tears

31:37

sound like pain and your pain hurts them.

31:41

So find a place to let out some tears

31:43

maybe and just

31:45

let them out. out, but

31:48

then also anticipate

31:51

joy. Pray and ask

31:53

God to give you an openness

31:57

to returning joy.

32:00

normalcy because he is a healer

32:02

and he will do a healing

32:04

work in your life.

32:06

And I hope you can accept that for me because I'm saying

32:08

to you, he has done that healing work

32:11

in my life over these years

32:13

of losing two children. He

32:15

has done such a work of healing

32:17

and healing so that I

32:19

can help other people and healing

32:22

so that my grief isn't the

32:24

first thing I think about every morning. And it

32:26

doesn't dominate all of my interactions

32:28

with other people and relationships.

32:31

And this is what I would wish for you. This is what

32:33

I would pray for you, that you would welcome

32:36

the healing work of God

32:39

in your life in the midst of your grief. Thank

32:41

you, Nancy. I kept

32:43

just soaking up

32:44

pieces of what you were saying, even as someone

32:47

who hasn't experienced child loss, but knows

32:50

other griefs, that

32:51

little pieces of what you were saying I kept clinging to

32:54

and grabbing. And it's just so encouraging to

32:56

me because you're right. There is a lot of universal

32:59

feelings we experience in grief. So

33:02

I just want to say thank you for encouraging me. I

33:04

know this will be incredible for so many RZA

33:06

motherhood listeners at differing points

33:08

of their journey. I know that one

33:10

thing that you have really given

33:13

much of your life to as well is

33:15

something called respite retreats. And there's

33:17

some fun new things happening

33:19

with that. And it is also an incredible

33:21

place for a mom and

33:24

a dad to go who has lost one

33:26

of their children. I have had personal

33:28

friends who have also attended a respite

33:30

retreat. And

33:31

so not only do we know about it from you, but also just

33:34

first hand experience of hearing how incredible

33:36

and healing it is. Can you tell

33:39

our listeners a little bit about that

33:41

and what goes on there and why they might

33:43

attend one? Yes, I would love to. So

33:47

in 2009, my husband, David and I started holding weekend

33:49

retreats for couples who have lost children, children

33:52

of any age, all different kinds of causes of

33:54

death.

33:55

Our last one was a couple

33:58

of months ago.

34:00

And we've now spent the weekend

34:02

with about a thousand grieving parents.

34:04

We've had 44 respite retreats. And

34:08

at those weekends, couples come

34:10

together and they get

34:12

to talk about their children. They get to talk

34:14

about what they're really struggling

34:17

with in the midst of loss. We look at the scriptures

34:20

together. Amazingly, what most

34:22

people believe could never happen is we laugh

34:25

a lot together. People

34:27

think on Friday, some

34:30

people

34:30

want to turn around. They're like, what are we

34:32

doing? Why would we even be going to this? And

34:34

then by Sunday, they don't want to leave. And

34:36

the main power of it is being in a

34:39

room with 10 or 11

34:39

other couples who get

34:42

it, that you don't have to walk on egg shells

34:44

around because they really get your loss. And

34:47

you can talk to them about things

34:49

that you would never talk to

34:51

people about in some other social setting.

34:53

And so those have just been incredible.

34:56

It's been an incredible ministry for us. David

34:59

and I did decide recently that

35:01

this last one we just did will be our final

35:03

one, mainly because we've

35:05

been mentoring some younger

35:07

couples to host these retreats.

35:11

And in fact, over the last couple of months, there

35:13

was a respite retreat at the beach

35:16

in Gulf Shores, Alabama, led by

35:18

Casey and Melissa Belgard. And

35:20

they had 12 couples who spent the weekend there

35:23

on the beach, which is a beautiful setting. and

35:25

then respite retreat at the river, led

35:28

by Gabe and Monica DeGarmo

35:31

outside San Antonio, Texas. And

35:34

they just had a retreat this fall. So these

35:37

two couples are continuing to host

35:39

respite retreat. And so if you go to my website at

35:41

nancygethry.com

35:42

and then choose respite retreat, you'll

35:45

find links to see

35:47

those retreats. But those have just been

35:49

an incredible blessing to us. I just,

35:53

it's so fun to be, I come to love

35:55

these people over

35:57

the weekend and stay in touch

35:59

with. with

36:00

so many of them, you know, through

36:02

the years. But the best thing

36:04

about it for couples is just

36:07

getting time away as a couple

36:10

to focus on how they're doing working

36:12

through this loss and how they're doing as

36:14

a couple and how they're doing in regard

36:16

perhaps to their other children and with

36:18

the Lord and to get

36:21

to really connect with other people

36:23

who get it. That's the beauty of it.

36:25

Well, we're so grateful that you took a moment to share

36:27

about that. And we hope that these respite

36:29

retreats and kind of the new iteration

36:31

that you have of them would be a blessing

36:33

to listeners as they connect

36:36

with people in real life. Yeah, I know

36:38

that's something that Lauren and

36:40

I talk about a lot at Risen Motherhood of

36:42

it's one thing to go on social media and

36:45

to find someone you really love to follow

36:47

and you connect with their reels or you connect with

36:49

their articles that they write, but it is totally different

36:52

to get face to face with people in

36:54

real life, where you can hear

36:57

about the work that God is doing, where

36:59

you can look at the scriptures together, you can pray

37:01

together, and you can have that

37:04

mutual experience

37:06

and see what God does, and see what kind of healing

37:08

and direction and guidance and things

37:11

that he brings through those in-person

37:14

connections. And so I just love that

37:16

you guys do that and that you're also discipling

37:18

others to carry that on and multiply

37:21

that. So it's such a gift.

37:23

Well, as we kind of wrap

37:25

up the show here, Nancy, you've given

37:27

so many wonderful encouragements,

37:30

but do you have just a final word

37:33

of encouragement that you would give to a mom who's in

37:36

the midst of her grieving even today?

37:39

I would say to you, if you are in

37:41

that really low place of

37:44

grief, that

37:48

there is a voice you need to listen to. mentioned

37:52

earlier, there's this voice inside you

37:54

that's

37:57

screaming out to you,

37:59

telling you you'll never happy again, pointing

38:01

at that empty place

38:04

in your heart and in your family and

38:06

in at the dinner table

38:10

that is telling you it was unfair,

38:12

it wasn't right,

38:15

God has not done right by you,

38:18

he can't be trusted.

38:21

And so you can listen to that voice, but it will lead

38:23

you only to despair an

38:25

alienation from God.

38:27

And God is

38:31

speaking to you. When we

38:33

open up the Bible, it's not

38:35

just something he said to someone else. It's

38:38

him speaking. We

38:40

see that especially in the book of Hebrews

38:43

where he will quote

38:45

the Old Testament. He would say, the Holy Spirit

38:48

says That's because the Bible is

38:50

the living active word of

38:52

God.

38:53

And I know that as

38:56

you open it up at times, you're

38:58

looking for it to say

39:00

something you want to hear, or you

39:02

get to a certain part of the Bible and you think this has

39:05

nothing to do with my laws and I'm not really

39:07

interested. But I just want to encourage

39:10

you to

39:12

open up God's word every

39:14

day if you can,

39:16

even if it's just to read a bit of a psalm,

39:19

I want you to open up God's word and

39:21

anticipate that God will speak to

39:24

you, that He will reveal Himself to

39:26

you.

39:26

You know, we often come to

39:29

the Bible with all these questions we want

39:31

answered. And

39:34

the Bible answers questions that

39:36

you and I don't even know enough to ask. It

39:40

tells us what we most need to know. And

39:43

you and I need this voice outside of ourselves,

39:46

this voice that speaks

39:48

comfort, yes,

39:50

maybe even some correction,

39:52

maybe a revealing

39:55

of more about who God

39:57

is that will enable you

39:59

to. trust him more.

40:02

And so I would just say to you

40:05

in this time where maybe you think, I'm

40:07

just, I'm not sure I can even trust God,

40:10

why would it open up my Bible to

40:12

listen to him?

40:13

I just encourage you to open it up and hear

40:15

him speak. And then don't just

40:17

close it, make it a conversation.

40:20

Wherever you are in the Bible, use

40:23

those words to

40:25

develop your prayer back to him.

40:28

So when you read, the Lord

40:31

is my shepherd and I shall not want, maybe

40:33

that becomes to you a prayer and saying, Lord,

40:36

I need you as a shepherd.

40:38

I feel like I am out on my own,

40:41

but even when I read this,

40:43

that I have everything I need right now, I am

40:45

feeling like I don't have everything I need,

40:48

like I want my child with me here right now. And

40:50

so I need you to press

40:52

this truth deep into my soul

40:55

and reveal to me that you are

40:57

what I need and that

40:59

you will lead me beside still

41:01

waters and that you will restore my

41:03

soul because right now my soul

41:05

is so sick.

41:07

It's so desperate. And

41:10

so Lord, would you bring a restoration

41:12

to my soul that only you can bring?

41:15

Do you see what I'm doing? I'm working through Psalm 23

41:17

and I'm turning it into a conversation.

41:20

And so if you struggle

41:22

to talk to God in the in the midst of your loss, maybe

41:24

that's a place to begin. Listen to him

41:26

and then turn that into a conversation

41:29

with him to get that conversation going again.

41:32

Hi, my name is Kathleen and I'm

41:34

a part of the Risen Motherhood

41:37

community because it helps

41:49

me to remember the gospel and

41:51

how it applies to everyday life. I

41:54

live and serve in Southeast Asia

41:56

among an unreached people group. a

41:58

part of the Rizmah that mother-

42:00

community helps me to remember

42:02

that the gospel is important

42:05

and transforms everything and it brings me great

42:07

encouragement in my daily life.

42:17

Risen Motherhood is a nonprofit organization

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42:22

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