0:09

I do think it's about the road, and

0:11

I think that as many things

0:13

as I have that are prizes at the end,

0:16

I've had a lot of fun along

0:18

the way, and I really am

0:21

invested in that. Thanks

0:31

for joining us on the road to somewhere.

0:33

When we talk about exploration, adventure,

0:36

major life change and transformation, it's

0:38

about not necessarily knowing where we're going,

0:41

but having faith that the journey will be worthwhile.

0:43

I'm we saw us, and I'm Jill

0:45

Herziege, and we are going

0:48

to be joined today by someone whose life

0:50

has always been a huge inspiration

0:52

to me. We work together, but that's

0:55

not the most meaningful connection. The most meaningful

0:57

connection is just having been

1:00

um had a seat

1:03

at the front row watching this person just

1:06

strut her life down the runway. It's been

1:08

so exciting for me. Do you have women in your

1:10

life who you just feel like I'm just watching

1:12

them live their lives? I

1:15

love it. That's cute

1:18

and sweet, but you know what I mean? You know what I

1:21

mean? There's there and

1:23

I'm not talking about in the Instagram way. I'm not talking about

1:26

wow, look at her in some fabulous locale

1:28

every week. I'm talking about, um,

1:31

wow, look at that choice. Well,

1:34

our our guest today, Veronica Chambers,

1:36

is truly impressive. I'm

1:38

just looking at I've never i feel like

1:41

I'm the odd girl in this room because

1:43

you guys clearly have a past and I I'm

1:45

just looking at her resume and it is

1:48

mind blowing. Um. Writer, our

1:50

archival storyteller, Senior editor of the Special

1:53

Project team with the New York Times, co author of

1:55

four New York Times bestsellers and

1:57

written more than a dozen books for children.

2:00

Been in publishing every form

2:02

of creative endeavor that I can

2:04

think of it. Thank you for being with us

2:06

today. I'm so excited to be here. So

2:09

UM, back when we work together, I used to ask

2:12

you to talk about your background and

2:14

your sort of origin story with our interns.

2:17

Um. We worked together Glamor Magazine yearns

2:20

ago. Um, but we knew each other before and we've

2:22

known each other after that. So can you talk

2:24

a little bit about your about your background?

2:26

Just because I had you had you tell

2:29

interns because again, it just it

2:31

wowed me every time. Yeah. I mean,

2:34

I am trying to think of the very very

2:36

short version. Um. I

2:38

was born in Panama. My parents are for

2:41

you know, I'm first generation my parents were immigrants.

2:43

I grew up in Brooklyn super poor.

2:46

Um, just really poor, like

2:48

no o R like po poor and

2:51

um. And you know, I

2:53

went to college early. And really

2:56

that was like a big life choice

2:58

because when I was sixteen, dropped

3:00

out of high school, not because I was so smart,

3:02

but because like my home life was really

3:05

rough, and so I was like, I may not make

3:07

it to senior year. And so I

3:09

went to college early. And when my brother was sixteen,

3:11

he dropped out of school and started dealing drugs

3:14

and so um, so

3:16

I think, you know, it was like a very survival

3:19

thing. And UM, when I got

3:21

my first internship in magazines, they

3:24

didn't pay, and I literally my

3:26

family all gave me like train

3:28

fare as my Christmas present so

3:30

I could do it. And I remember getting there

3:32

at seventeen and realizing

3:35

that another intern had a private car driver

3:38

to the office every day and she never picked

3:40

up her Um, I guess

3:42

that I had my first internship with Sassy was stilled

3:44

unpaid. And then I was at seventeen and it was

3:46

add twenty five dollars a week before

3:49

taxes, and she never picked up her check, and

3:51

I just remember thinking, paycheck her paycheck.

3:55

It was so meaningless and every you used to

3:57

have to go and pick up your paycheck in

3:59

those days, and um, the woman, I

4:01

wish I could give it to you because look look

4:03

at she she doesn't even want it. And

4:05

it was just like it was just so hard to

4:08

Like, I think people don't understand

4:11

often that certain fields

4:13

have a point of entry, like you have to be able

4:15

to like go without pay

4:17

or make a dollar a week before

4:20

taxes in order to have the experience

4:22

to be in the room. Like it's really

4:24

hard to get into certain

4:26

rooms. And I think it's still true. Oh my gosh,

4:29

I think it's still very much true. So what inspired

4:31

you? What what was the driving force

4:34

to go into a field where there

4:36

was that barrier financially? Why

4:39

wouldn't I would have thought that you'd

4:41

want to just make some money? Yeah,

4:45

you know, Um, I think

4:48

about this a lot because I was trying to negotiate

4:50

a contract the other day and I literally

4:52

was trying to give some of my money to somebody

4:55

else who I didn't think was being fairly compensated.

4:58

And the person I was negotiating with was like, we

5:00

can talk about her money, but I'm not taking

5:02

from your money, and I think, you

5:05

know, so that's just it just the way of saying that. I

5:07

think, despite not having had a lot um

5:11

money for itself, has not been a pure

5:13

driver for me. I think I grew

5:16

up in a family of readers and I

5:18

loved to read. And I think that when

5:20

I learned about magazines and it seemed

5:23

like an opportunity to write, it was kind

5:25

of like an extension of that. I just,

5:27

you know, I still remember getting those

5:29

like first bylines and how excited

5:31

I was, you know, I feel like that's the

5:33

thing that drives me. Is is it exciting?

5:36

Is it creative? Um? Can

5:39

I make something? Okay? So that

5:41

was then, and what has happened in between

5:43

is a great career in magazines, a

5:46

departure from that that

5:48

sort of trajectory, and a

5:51

movement into writing all of these best

5:53

sellers and doing all of these incredible creative

5:56

projects. And this summer

5:58

you have two books, having out four

6:01

kids. Tell us about the the

6:04

one about Shirley Chisholm. And because

6:06

what's interesting to me about it is how long it

6:09

has taken um. Because creativity,

6:11

you make it sound as that it just sort of bubbles forth. And you

6:13

bought from one project to the next. But some of

6:15

them take have taken in

6:17

your life. Stick tu itiveness phenomenal.

6:20

Stick to itiveness. Yeah, I think that. Um,

6:23

yeah, you have to have patience. I

6:25

first decided to write a picture book

6:27

about Shirley Chislm ten years ago. It was

6:30

a really different moment in the culture. Um.

6:32

You know, you didn't have the women

6:35

of the hundreds and sixteenth Congress. You

6:37

didn't have I remember sitting

6:39

with an editor and

6:42

she said to me, do you know how many people have served in Congress?

6:44

Do you really think all of them to serve

6:46

a bluck? But I had grown up in Brooklyn,

6:48

and I knew Shirley Chisholm was extraordinary. I

6:51

knew that she was the first woman to run,

6:54

to seek the major to seek the

6:56

presidential nomination from a major

6:58

party. You know. Funny because my other children's

7:01

book is about suffrage, and we've been

7:03

going back and forth about Victoria Woodhull,

7:05

who, of course this is the first female I've run for president.

7:08

But she was so crazy. Um, you know,

7:10

like Shirley Chisum was legit, and she got

7:13

electoral votes and she convinced

7:15

people at a time, you know, when

7:17

civil rights was so knew

7:20

that the paint was still wet on the walls,

7:22

you know, and she went for it and she

7:24

had so much confidence and I really wanted

7:26

to do it. And it started ten years ago and

7:29

it's sold, and then it kind of got unsold

7:31

when somebody left UM, and

7:33

then I couldn't. I just couldn't

7:36

sell it. And I kept I would do this thing.

7:38

I do this thing all the time because I have so many ideas where

7:40

I go to Amazon and I type in shortly Chism

7:42

picture book and I'm like, it's

7:45

somebody somebody else is going to do it. And every

7:47

year it didn't happen,

7:50

and I just kept, you know, I'd

7:52

bring it up by bringing up in meetings, I'd

7:54

try to do stuff. And then like about three

7:57

years ago, UM, an editor that

7:59

I love, Nancy Mercado, got a new

8:01

job and I sent her an email. I said,

8:04

you know, look at all this stuff about Shirley Chisum.

8:06

She's getting a monument. There's a state park in Brooklyn.

8:09

I think Viola Davis is playing her in a movie.

8:11

Um Uzuo Adibu, I

8:14

think it's playing in a TV movie. And

8:16

Um, I said, she's everywhere. I

8:19

have this book that I wrote ten years ago, um,

8:21

would you like to have it? And it just saw started

8:23

to move really fast. Yeah. So and

8:26

so where do you get that that

8:29

grit that helps

8:32

you stick with your belief

8:34

in a project? And how

8:37

do you know like when it's time to

8:39

let something go versus when

8:42

you should never never let it go. That's

8:45

interesting. I, um, it's funny because

8:47

I've taught writing along the way I taught at Stanford

8:49

recently taught us Smith, which I loved,

8:52

um so knowning Lisa smile like

8:55

I loved teaching them um and I

8:57

and sometimes like coach writers. I I've

9:00

worked as a coach for Senator Corey Booker, and

9:02

I've I've coached some really talented

9:04

people. And there's a woman you

9:07

had a project that she wanted to do, a

9:09

novel, historical novel, and

9:12

she has been trying to publish it for ten years.

9:15

I have tried, in as many

9:17

ways as possible to tell her this

9:19

was just one idea that she had and

9:23

she just has to like let it go,

9:25

because ultimately I put Shirley

9:27

to the side and I made other things and then

9:29

I came back to it. And I think that's the thing is,

9:32

you know, I think every writer of

9:34

like you know, married

9:37

and um tenacity, has

9:40

something in a drawer that UM,

9:42

the time wasn't right for. But I think

9:44

the differences do you keep making things or

9:47

do you insist that your one good idea

9:49

is is the thing and

9:51

the world has to catch up. I think that's the big

9:53

difference. When we come back, I want to talk to you about

9:56

where you get those good ideas. Okay,

10:10

so we've been chatting about creativity,

10:13

especially in the realm of the written

10:16

word, and I just want to talk about where

10:19

how much of being in magazines

10:21

do you think informed your your

10:24

particular version of creativity, Because, as you said,

10:26

some people have one idea that they said on

10:28

forever, but in magazines, it's a different

10:30

idea every month, right, or sometimes ten ideas

10:33

every month. So I just want to talk about your particular

10:36

type of creativity. Sure, I

10:38

think that um magazines, And

10:40

I'm so sad that there aren't as

10:42

many magazines around as there were

10:45

and that they aren't as many stories. I just loved it.

10:47

I feel like magazines were for

10:49

me like a gym, you know, and

10:51

I could like I could work my

10:54

arms, or I could get on a treadmill or

10:56

I could. You know, I could do a cover story. I could do a

10:58

quiz, I could do you know that could

11:01

cookbook, I could. It was a space that

11:03

could hold a lot of different things. You

11:06

could do it most entirely with words

11:09

and texts. Yeah, you could do a ten thou word

11:11

political story, or you could do something

11:13

that was a photo essay. I remember editing

11:16

short films with you on Glamor's

11:18

Woman of the Year. I mean, I just feel like there was just

11:21

it was a space that allowed you to try

11:23

a lot of things. Um. I think

11:25

that's one of the reasons I love being at the New York Times

11:27

Now. I just came from there and I'm like, I

11:30

look at this building. Platform is firing

11:32

on everyone liked to see, you know. I

11:34

could like literally just walk from

11:37

my desk to the kitchen and I

11:40

can pass Michael Babar or

11:42

I could see people from the Weekly Because

11:44

see people from the Washington Bureau. I could see

11:46

someone from Crossroad Puzzle Puzzles, someone

11:49

from Cooking the cooking app versus

11:51

the cooking in the paper. I mean, I just I

11:54

like spaces where you can do a lot of different

11:56

things. And it's interesting that you bring

11:58

up cooking, because you also are

12:01

the author of James Beard Award

12:03

winning cookbooks, and that's

12:05

a whole other avenue of creativity for I

12:08

have to tell you that the last James

12:10

Beard Award I want, I was like I

12:12

went first. I was like, this is truly nice

12:14

to be nominated, because we were nominated

12:16

for Best American Cookbook, which

12:19

you know, often like African American

12:21

things are like we'll talk about what tell tell

12:23

people what the book was. Oh, it was called Between

12:25

Harlem and Heaven, and it was then exploration

12:28

of Afro Asian American cooking.

12:30

And it basically looked at how the diaspora

12:33

of Africa and the diaspora of Asia

12:35

intersecting cuisine and all these interesting ways

12:38

in Jamaica and Senegal, in England

12:40

and all the stuff. It was an idea book,

12:42

which I love, you know, and um,

12:45

and we were nominated for Best American Cookbook.

12:47

And I got the nomination and I was like,

12:50

okay, um, so nice to be nominated.

12:52

I'll put on a nice dress, I'll go to the James Briand

12:55

Award. This is not

12:57

really happening. Maybe I'll meet some famous chefs,

12:59

you know, David Chanying or something and and

13:02

then um, I'll go home. And

13:05

the night of the awards, they said

13:07

the first award is going to Best American Cookbook.

13:10

And I remember sitting there and going hell

13:12

spells, like it's going to be a long night.

13:15

I'm gonna have to be smiling and polite

13:17

like all my He was like, let it

13:19

come at the end, let me have fun. I'll

13:21

just see like bum er, I'll go home. But I was like, and

13:23

then they said it was us, and I was just so

13:26

shocked. But it was really something that like

13:29

had a tiny budget that came from our

13:31

heart that I worked on for a long time

13:34

because of said tiny budget and

13:36

um, and I felt like people really

13:38

saw it and that was great. That

13:40

brings it sort of brings me back to your question

13:43

originally about the impulse to work in

13:45

a field that promised you no money. You

13:47

also pursue creative projects that

13:50

promised you no money, and

13:52

and that has been I mean, I will say

13:55

that a huge driving force in my life.

13:57

And I did not come from a poor

13:59

family. I went through economic

14:02

stress as a kid, but

14:04

that economic stress took hold in me I

14:07

think in a different way, and

14:10

money has been a huge driver for me. And I

14:12

have trimmed and shaped my dreams

14:15

and pursuits so that they

14:17

could fill the coffers in

14:19

the most effective way that I thought

14:22

I could do. Um. I have followed

14:24

the money the creativity as well, and I

14:26

feel incredibly lucky to have been able to

14:28

do. But

14:31

at the same time, you know, I

14:34

took jobs that were very painful because this was

14:36

more money, and I you

14:38

know, I had kids, and I just wanted

14:40

wanted more money and more safety. And that

14:43

really that word is what what was about. It wasn't

14:45

about the money, was about safety. So how how

14:48

does one free oneself from

14:51

the fear based pursuit and

14:55

go for the pursuit

14:57

of what you love and want to do and believe?

15:00

Yeah, I think. I mean in some

15:02

ways, my poor child, for who's thirteen,

15:05

She's like, where is the money? She's

15:08

like, You've done all this stuff, where's the money? Um?

15:10

But you know, at the same time, I think the

15:13

amazing thing is we always well

15:15

two things. I think I was really lucky that

15:17

when I married my husband, we both felt

15:20

very strongly that we wanted a small life.

15:23

We wanted a life that we didn't have to work hard

15:25

to support, and we always said, we wanted

15:27

the smallest place we can live. Um

15:31

that we just didn't want to overhead to be crippling.

15:33

You know. I didn't send my kid to private school because I didn't

15:36

want to have to say, oh, you got ex

15:38

grade and it caught and I was spending this much

15:40

on in school. I just you know, like so, I

15:42

mean, I found a great charter school and she's in a bilingual

15:45

school. I made choices that were important to

15:47

me, but I just didn't want

15:49

there to be a price. I don't want to associate

15:51

a price tage with schooling. So I feel like I

15:53

was lucky that I had a partner who felt the same

15:56

way. Um. But I also

15:58

as my child was own and look

16:00

at our family, I think I've just had so many

16:02

experiences that you couldn't buy.

16:05

So it's not a small life. It's a huge in

16:08

terms of stuff. Yeah. I remember

16:11

when, um, we I took my daughter

16:13

to Spain for a month and um yeah,

16:16

and um so that we could you

16:18

know, she could really be a merchant Spanish, and

16:21

because my family speaks Spanish, I really wanted

16:23

her to do it. And at that point she was eight, and

16:26

I think, you know, she thought Spanish was something I made

16:28

her do, like some kids have to take piano.

16:30

She's like always and

16:33

I'm like, we're going to Spain and you're going to speak

16:35

and um. And we came back from Spain. My

16:38

husband had to leave right away for a trip. And

16:40

I got a call from Donna Brazil

16:42

and Mignon More, these group of women in d C

16:44

from politics, and they said, are you coming down

16:46

tomorrow to see Hillary accept the nomination?

16:50

And I said, um, I said no,

16:52

it's pouring rain. I just got back from Spain last

16:54

night. My husband's not here. I don't have tickets.

16:56

I don't I've never been to a convention. I don't have anything.

16:59

And you know, they the scooping woman. They

17:01

call themselves the colored Girls, and they're like political

17:03

impressiros and they always say,

17:05

um, don't major in the miners. And

17:07

they got on the phone with me and they said, your

17:10

child needs to come see Hillary. Don't

17:12

major in the miners. Just get their

17:15

text somebody. When you get there, someone will find

17:17

you. Because that's like me. I'm like, I don't

17:19

want to go barging in and not get

17:21

a seed and get on the train to d C. And

17:23

and the train was expensive. It was election.

17:26

I mean it was convention the weekend. It was like seven

17:29

dollars or something and writing

17:34

exactly. And I got down there

17:36

and then my friend said go to this v

17:38

I P room and I'm like, here

17:41

we go again. And I got my child who's

17:43

nine and um and

17:46

we get there and they go, no children in this room, and I said

17:48

Minon Moore and Donna Brazil sent me and they

17:50

said okay. And we are seated

17:53

in a box next to resend

17:55

Jesse Jackson, and my

17:57

daughter, who's nine, like literally says

17:59

there and she's just like, okay.

18:02

The military father he said this, and

18:04

Reverend William Barber said this and this pression

18:06

and she made notes and it was like

18:09

it was incredible. And then when the balloons fell

18:11

out of the sky after, you know, then

18:16

she just looked at me and she was just

18:18

like, well, what she said

18:20

is a woman is going to become friends. But

18:23

you know, like the fact is we were so close

18:26

and it was an amazing night, and

18:28

she talks about it all the time, and I

18:30

think we get a lot of things like that. So I

18:33

just try to tell her all the time that like it's

18:36

the work that both me and

18:38

her dad do and the way we do the

18:40

work, the way we try to be

18:42

with our colleagues and the people we work with. Like

18:45

I don't like when I work with people. I'm

18:47

like, let's not make this miserable,

18:49

Like, let's make it fun, let's be respectful,

18:52

let's you know. Like, I think it's the way we

18:54

work with people as much as the work we do that

18:57

we get some of the opportunities that we got. So

19:00

when you're teaching young

19:03

women at Smith, but young people,

19:06

UM at at any university you're

19:08

teaching, how do you communicate

19:11

that? What is the big takeaway for people

19:13

who want to be in the creative

19:16

space but I have fear

19:18

that they may not um be able

19:21

to survive financially.

19:23

How do you communicate that to them? Um?

19:26

I think that, I say, I

19:28

say a couple of things. I think that. UM

19:31

that for me, you know, I wrote my first

19:34

book, Mama's Girl, while I was working

19:36

full time in a magazine, and I always tell

19:38

the story I, UM, I wasn't

19:40

a morning person at the time, so I

19:43

literally, UM would come

19:45

home from work at seven, give myself

19:47

like an hour to eat a TV dinner because that's the way

19:49

life was. Then I gave myself two

19:51

hours to watch TV, and so that's

19:53

seven to eight, eight to ten really till like

19:55

eleven. And then I would set the oven

19:58

timer because O and time, I

20:00

think that maximum and the oventimer is six

20:02

hours or seven hours. And I would

20:04

sleep in the kitchen on the floor so that I would

20:06

have to get up and write because my bed was way too

20:08

comfy. And I would get up and write for

20:10

two hours before I went to work. And I

20:13

did that for three months until

20:15

I had a draft, you know, five

20:17

days a week for three months. I mean so, because

20:19

the thing is, I think people think sacrifices

20:21

forever you can. I mean, people

20:23

go on diets for much longer.

20:26

And then I do that, you know what I mean. If you're

20:28

gonna like deny yourself like food, you

20:30

could like deny yourself a little sleep and maybe

20:33

make something try. So

20:35

there's a there's some sacrifice in there too, yeah,

20:38

but not forever, you know. It's not like I do

20:40

that, like even now, Like sometimes

20:42

when I have a deadline, I'll get up. I'll

20:44

set my learned for five. Sometimes I get up at four.

20:47

I hate being up at four. I love being

20:49

up at five, but four fields like a hell,

20:52

you know. But but then I'm just like, let's

20:54

just get up and do this, and I make myself a

20:56

cup of tea because I know it's not every day and it's

20:58

not forever. It's like, just get

21:01

at it, you know. Well, when we come back, I want to talk

21:03

about some of the things you're doing now, which

21:05

is why you're getting up in five in the

21:08

morning. So

21:19

we've been chatting with the ronic Chambers about

21:21

some of the artistic

21:23

endeavors that she's engaged in. And

21:26

you have a new I don't know how long new

21:28

is, but that you work at the New York Times in

21:31

the archives. Jill's been telling me about

21:33

it. Um, can you share some of that the

21:35

reason you're gonna have at four in the morning. Yes. Um.

21:38

So this is an interesting thing

21:40

about creativity is Um, there's

21:43

six million fold photos and paper

21:45

folders in the sub sub basement

21:47

of the New York Times. The the

21:50

files are so heavy they can't actually

21:52

be in the new building because the new building

21:55

wasn't built to support it. So it's

21:57

actually like two buildings down. It would

21:59

drop the bottom. And

22:02

so um, about two years ago,

22:04

a really brilliant editor there. Monica Drake

22:07

was like, we should do something with this, and

22:09

she called me and she said, did you have any interest in photography?

22:12

And I had studied photography in school. It's

22:15

the one thing I was really bad at. I

22:17

really wanted to like be

22:19

a writer photographer and I don't know what I thought

22:21

that was. I don't know. And but

22:24

then I collected photography and of course in magazines

22:26

you work with photography and photo

22:28

editors all the time. So he said yeah,

22:31

and so they basically

22:33

said, we'll have a

22:35

year and you can build a team. And

22:37

I've had two photo editors, reporter,

22:41

an editor, researcher and what

22:43

would you do with it? And so literally they're

22:45

not organized by date, they're not organized

22:47

by photographer. They're

22:50

organized because they started from the late

22:52

eighteen hundred. So whatever the photo

22:55

editor thought made sense at that time. And

22:57

so I remember one on my first day,

22:59

I was like, everyone was like, what are you gonna do? And like something

23:02

and so um they and

23:05

someone said to me, they said, you know, it's like pickup

23:07

sticks, just throw them in the air and

23:09

see what comes down. And so I

23:12

just started, um. So that

23:14

they are organized. There are folders

23:16

for states and places, they're

23:19

folders for famous people, they're

23:21

folders for events like war. But

23:24

I thought that the interesting thing, kind

23:26

of my driving thing, was that you

23:28

don't have to serve history the way

23:30

it was served to you, Like that's the nice

23:33

thing about going backwards. And so what I

23:35

wanted to do was create things where,

23:37

um, where photos from

23:40

different errors and periods could live together.

23:42

So one of the things I noticed right away was

23:45

that New York Times photographed dance

23:47

and dancers for over a hundred years,

23:50

um, and everything from ballerinas to

23:53

people dancing at blog parties. So we

23:55

did last summer. I think it was like a sixty

23:57

page special section on dance, and

23:59

it had everything. It was the oldest photo

24:01

I think was ninety years old and um,

24:04

and they went to over span a few hundred

24:07

years. And your process

24:09

down there in that deep sub basement, do

24:12

you just let yourself wander and

24:14

wait for the line

24:17

ups is to fire and a sense of like, whoa,

24:21

we got a lot of dance here. All of this dance

24:24

shares something. Is that how it works?

24:26

Or not? Really? Um, it's

24:28

it's too hard. I mean, it's six

24:31

million photos, so it's too hard

24:33

to do that. What happened at

24:35

the same time was they started scanning

24:39

because they weren't digitized, and so um,

24:42

there's a team of scanners and they have a slack channel

24:44

and they'll throw things in there. And so I

24:46

started to see dance somewhat

24:48

from them and um, and then

24:51

sometimes we would go back in Talian's machine. But

24:53

then also it was the team brainstorming. So

24:55

it's kind of like thinking. Usually

24:57

it's often one or two photographs that will

25:00

sparked the idea. So like I saw a couple

25:02

of great dance photos and I thought, I bet there's

25:04

more, and I bet they're crazy diverse

25:06

and interesting, and you know, it's everything

25:09

like teenagers at a teen

25:12

club in the nineteen forties watching

25:14

a Flamenco dancer, to break dancers,

25:17

to the first um ballet

25:20

um sort of recitals

25:22

after World War Two at like Connecticut

25:25

College. These beautiful photos of ballerinas

25:28

dancing across the field and so it

25:30

was really great central park dancing, old people,

25:32

young people, babies, um, and

25:34

so it was, but it was just a couple

25:37

of photos. And similarly, I just um

25:40

did a section on African

25:42

independence and I saw one photo,

25:44

two photos really about two years

25:47

ago there was a photo of a baby holding

25:49

a Nigerian flag and I thought that was interesting,

25:52

and a mother carrying a baby on the back and the baby

25:54

had a flag. And then I saw

25:56

a photo of a beauty pageant winner that said miss

25:58

Independence, and I, uh, when

26:01

did Nigeria get independent? And it was

26:03

nineteen sixty And it turned out that

26:05

um seventeen countries declared

26:07

independence in nineteen sixty and it was

26:10

like the tipping point for colonialism.

26:12

I had no idea. I don't I don't know African

26:15

history, you know, and and

26:18

so it just and everyone said,

26:20

well, you've got two photos from Nigeria. Is

26:22

they're more? And I'm always like, if

26:24

my you know, like spider sense, my

26:27

spidy sense says that these

26:29

photos are pretty incredible, I'm pretty sure

26:31

we can find more. And then it turned out

26:33

that when these countries declared

26:35

independence, everyone needed new I D

26:38

cards, So that's why you have all these photo

26:40

studios popping up. And so it turned

26:42

out there were lots of photos. But I didn't

26:44

know any of that. I just knew that I saw two

26:46

photos that I found in Trigue. You're

26:48

also commissioning essays based on these photos,

26:51

so it's yeah,

26:54

and the project is about what does not

26:56

just let's put these photos together

26:58

and see what see what binds

27:01

them. But let's put these

27:03

photos together, show them to people

27:05

and see what it sparks in them, what it tells

27:08

us about us? Now, Yeah, Zadie

27:10

Smith wrote something for us, Mr

27:12

Copeland Walter Mosley. UM,

27:15

I'm trying to think so many people, what

27:18

you what if you learned about yourself

27:21

from this? From

27:23

all of this looking and seeing, well,

27:26

you know, I feel like it's

27:29

funny. It's like someone you were meant to meet. Certain

27:31

jobs give you that feeling like you were

27:33

meant to have them. And um, my

27:35

parents were so poor that actually,

27:38

like a lot of the people in these photos,

27:41

their parents would not have had photos

27:43

taken of them. So of my grandparents,

27:46

I probably have ten

27:48

photographs of them. Of my great grandparents,

27:51

I have one photograph of each

27:53

of them. So like, literally, for

27:56

me, six million photos is like

27:59

the opposite. It's like I got handed this bounty.

28:01

And I think what I see people

28:03

responding to. I think our section has

28:05

done incredibly well. Um,

28:07

I mean the page views and the response

28:10

is just off the hawk and one people

28:12

say that the photos make them feel connected

28:15

I think at a time when we feel disconnected.

28:17

UM. You know, you see a photo of a couple having

28:20

lunch in Central Park in ninety

28:22

eight and UM, and you

28:24

think about, you know, the first

28:27

time that you had lunch with someone you loved

28:29

or whatever, and it was crazy as people

28:32

have been finding themselves in photos. So that photo

28:34

that I was talking about, the couple in Central Park having lunch,

28:36

someone wrote and they told us that was their parents

28:39

and they're still married. And so

28:41

you know what I mean, like, it's like this connection

28:44

and I think the universality that

28:47

um that really I think photos

28:50

like the ones we're finding, the ones that we ran,

28:53

um show us just how common

28:56

the human experiences. You know,

28:58

you did a really beautiful post on Instagram

29:01

when the old decade

29:04

ended and we hit and

29:06

we started a new one looking back. I think a lot of people

29:09

were doing that, UM. And

29:12

you talked about all the things that have happened

29:15

to you over the past ten years, and you

29:17

quoted an Elizabeth Bishop poem, which I love.

29:20

UM. The quote was lose

29:22

further Faster. So

29:25

what is that? Why did you quote that?

29:27

What does it mean to you? And what I

29:29

mean talk about loss

29:33

looking back? Looking at things that are lost,

29:35

but getting uh a strength

29:37

from it. Yeah, my

29:40

god, till you know me so love, Like

29:42

I can't even fake it, you like,

29:45

let' be deep and smart. She knows

29:47

better. Um so that poem

29:49

one art and um, you know,

29:52

she says, the art of losing isn't hard to

29:54

master. Um practice

29:56

losing further, losing faster. I've lost two

29:58

houses I loved, you know, different

30:01

things. All these things that she's the losing

30:04

of a set of house keys and

30:06

the dizzy it puts us in, um,

30:08

but they all the way to the loss of someone

30:11

we love. Yeah, I think that,

30:13

um, you know, to

30:15

go back to the idea of like trying and what

30:17

I tell students and stuff. It's

30:20

like it's like that old um,

30:22

the Debbie Allen thing from

30:24

fame, you know, like fame costs and

30:26

here's where you start paying. I think

30:29

the thing is is that if you're gonna really

30:31

like engage with life full

30:34

on, and you're gonna say, I'm gonna put myself

30:36

out there and I'm going to try things,

30:38

and I'm gonna, you know, just go

30:41

for it in every way in my marriage and

30:43

my motherhood and my friendships

30:45

and my family and my career. Um, you're

30:47

gonna get punched back, like it's gonna like,

30:50

you know, some things are gonna hit you. And I

30:53

think for me, the loss has

30:55

been great. I've had projects

30:57

canceled, I've had jobs I've

31:00

lost, I've had things I've gone for, I've

31:03

been fired from projects, I've

31:06

I've had people, you know, I've you

31:08

know, I've just had this real

31:11

sense of loss and also

31:13

personal loss, you know, like I've lost friends

31:16

and I've um and

31:18

I've had to let some things go, you

31:20

know, Like I feel like there's always

31:23

this idea that like I

31:25

wanted this so badly and

31:27

I and it didn't work out or it's

31:29

not happening for me, and I have to let

31:31

it go. And I think that for me, there's

31:36

what I telled my students and my friends

31:38

when they ask, is like, like

31:41

you're defined by how not

31:44

how quickly you can bounce back, but

31:47

by how artfully you can bounce

31:49

back. You know. I think that, UM. I

31:52

think that to be able to really look something squarely,

31:54

squarely and say this is how painful

31:58

it may have cost me money, I'm

32:01

ambition, ego, reputation,

32:03

UM, anything and

32:06

UM, and then to keep going

32:09

is really tough. But I think the

32:11

fact is that's happened to everyone who

32:14

we might admire or want

32:16

to follow in their footsteps. Such amazing

32:19

advice. Thank you so so much.

32:21

Let's all try to live more artfully in

32:24

spite of the cost. So

32:27

everyone followed Veronica's work at Veronica

32:29

Chambers dot com. You can connect

32:31

with her on Instagram at end on

32:34

Twitter at vv Chambers.

32:38

The Road to Somewhere is recorded in New York City.

32:41

Make sure you share, subscribe, rate, and review

32:43

us, and let us hear from you. Where

32:46

are you on your journey? Connect

32:48

with us on Instagram and Twitter at pod

32:50

to Somewhere. Email us at Road

32:52

to Somewhere at iHeartMedia dot com. Special

32:55

thanks to our producer, Alicia Haywood. Thanks

32:58

for joining us in the Road to Somewhere. Available

33:00

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Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

33:09

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