0:00

I think the most important thing people

0:03

have to realize is that just because

0:05

you love somebody, you aren't going to be

0:07

the same financially. You're going to have different

0:09

goals and you're gonna have different wants. And if

0:13

you get into a position where one

0:15

person is making

0:17

the rules, that feels really

0:19

parental and and that's not

0:22

good for a marriage.

0:35

Welcome to you Turns the podcast where

0:37

we talk about all things change. I

0:40

am Lisa Oz and I am

0:42

Jill Herzig and the topic today I got

0:45

me thinking about our money

0:47

personalities and good

0:50

Lord minds. In the closet. In the

0:52

closet, you are a closet. What

0:54

them? No, nothing like I don't want to talk

0:56

about money. That closet.

0:58

Money person what's your money personality? UM?

1:01

I am insanely conservative

1:04

and it has actually cost me in

1:06

various different that's the only part of

1:08

your life that you are conservative? I

1:11

know. I mean, I I will take risks.

1:14

My husband and I think are the only people

1:16

in America who oversaved for college.

1:20

We oversaved, and now

1:22

we have to figure out what to do with the excess

1:24

money that's in the accounts. You

1:27

know, we've missed, We've actually missed

1:29

important opportunities because we were

1:31

so convinced that we

1:33

couldn't possibly be there financially. Anyway.

1:36

That's my that's my that's my Achilles

1:38

heels over conservative. That's your money

1:40

personality. Okay, well, our

1:43

guest today is going to help us sort

1:45

out all our money issues, both

1:47

personality and otherwise. Um.

1:50

She is the CEO and co founder of Her Money.

1:53

She is the best selling author of eleven

1:56

books. Holy cow, I don't know how

1:58

you have time to do that. Her latest is Women

2:00

with Money. Jeane Chatsky, thank

2:02

you so much for being with us here today.

2:05

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited,

2:07

thrilled that you're here. Money, money,

2:09

I know it's it is. It

2:12

is just a heavy duty topic

2:14

and it needs to be lighter.

2:16

It needs to be one of those things that we can

2:19

just talk about at the dinner table. It's like

2:21

sex and death and money. No

2:23

one wants to talk about those things. Ever, sometimes

2:26

I'd about to talk about sex and money. You are not unusual.

2:29

I mean, there have been actual studies on

2:31

this, and people would rather talk about religion

2:33

and politics and sex.

2:36

I don't think they survey death because I'm

2:39

not exactly sure where that would have ranked. But people

2:42

hate talking about money why because

2:45

we didn't grow up talking

2:47

about it. Because we

2:50

don't know enough about it, so we feel

2:52

very inadequate. We feel

2:55

often guilty when we compare ourselves

2:58

to other people that we either have too much

3:00

or we have too little. There's

3:02

so much baggage associated

3:05

with money, and really it's

3:07

just a tool. It's it's it should

3:10

be just this tool that

3:12

we use to get what we want

3:14

in life. And if we

3:16

could figure out how to approach

3:19

it in that less

3:21

emotional way, we would

3:23

do ourselves a lot of good. And do you think that

3:25

that women in particular could help one

3:27

another by talking more openly about money, No

3:30

question. You Um, were

3:32

both kind enough to come on my podcast,

3:35

and that's what we do

3:37

there every single week. We just open

3:40

the door and have a conversation about some

3:42

topic in our life that money touches,

3:45

which is everything, right, I

3:47

mean, if you if you think about

3:50

life and you want to talk about your kids

3:52

or your parents, or education or

3:55

cooking or I mean, I

3:57

can find a money angle on on everything,

4:00

including sex. Well,

4:03

because money is

4:05

just a way that we physicalize

4:08

value, right, because that is how that

4:10

is the tangible

4:13

form of what you

4:15

do and who you are that society

4:17

shows you that they value. So it's a

4:19

huge reflection on your

4:21

sense of self. I think yeah,

4:24

And if you can get yourself

4:27

to prioritize

4:29

it in line with your values,

4:31

then you've won. I mean. The

4:34

problem is we go through life and we

4:37

we act first and we think

4:40

later when it comes to money, so we

4:42

spend now and then we regret it later,

4:45

or we save as you were talking

4:47

about, and then we think, oh

4:49

boy, I wish I would have done it differently. And

4:52

if we can get ourselves to a place where

4:54

we know what our life

4:56

priorities are and and stack

4:59

a our financial life up so

5:01

that it supports those priorities,

5:04

whether it's more

5:06

time with friends and family,

5:08

whether it's giving back, whether

5:10

it's starting a business, whether it's

5:14

taking yourself out for a wonderful

5:16

dinner with friends that you haven't seen for a long

5:18

time, all of a sudden

5:21

it starts to make sense, and it starts

5:23

to support us and whatever

5:25

we want to do, rather than dragging us

5:27

down. And why are we so perverse

5:30

about it? Because what

5:32

you're saying, I think is completely true, and yet so

5:35

often we don't

5:37

behave with our money in ways

5:39

that actually coincide

5:41

and support our values. So why

5:44

why are we why are we so whacked that way?

5:46

We are whacked as a really good word

5:49

for it. Um. There are two

5:51

reasons. There's there's biology, and there's

5:53

emotion, and they're they're very very tightly

5:55

wrapped together. But this

5:58

whole discipline of behavioral

6:00

finance has sprung up in universities

6:03

around the country. Richard Daylor won

6:05

the Nobel Prize for it in two thousand

6:07

seventeen, all looking

6:09

into why human beings are irrational

6:12

when it comes to money, why we

6:14

do things consistently that

6:17

we know are not in our

6:19

own best interest. And biology

6:22

doesn't help us because we

6:25

are still not very

6:27

far evolved from our

6:29

cave man and cave woman

6:31

ancestors. You know, we are still

6:35

in our brains wired for

6:37

a media gratification. We want to kill

6:39

it and we want to eat it immediately

6:42

because we are not sure when another meal

6:44

is going to come along, and so we

6:47

do things that uh,

6:50

we do things that prioritize the present

6:52

when what we need to be doing

6:54

is prioritizing the future. UM

6:57

and using a lot of our assets in a in a that

7:00

help us down the road rather than today.

7:02

But then emotion comes along and

7:05

it just MUCKs up

7:07

the waters something awful. Because

7:10

money, in people's minds is

7:12

not just a tool. It's it's love and

7:14

its power and its security

7:17

and its independence, and all of

7:19

those factors are influenced

7:21

by how money

7:24

was treated in the home where you grew up.

7:26

Even even if you never talked about

7:28

it, you absorbed what was going

7:30

on in your childhood and

7:32

that impacts you to this day. And so

7:35

we get emotional, and emotion

7:38

makes us act. Logic makes us

7:40

think, but emotion makes us just

7:42

act, and so we make decisions about money

7:45

really quickly that

7:47

don't line up with what

7:50

we want long term. So when you talk to people

7:52

it's under on your podcast or

7:54

in person or through your books, how

7:58

do you get them too? Because that since distinctive

8:00

and you can't you can't really control how you

8:02

feel. But how do you stop yourself from acting

8:05

on those impulses and those

8:07

emotions around money? How How

8:10

can you let your brain take over

8:12

your finances rather than your gut. Sometimes

8:16

you can train yourself to just

8:19

slow it down a little bit too, to

8:21

pause, to think

8:23

about the fact that

8:27

when you're about to purchase something,

8:29

you just gotta think about it for a minute

8:31

and ask yourself a couple of basic

8:34

questions. Why am I doing this? What's

8:37

this for? Where am I going to put

8:39

it? I mean, you know, just some

8:42

basic things that can get you

8:44

to to just stop

8:46

for a second and realize, maybe I don't

8:49

want to do this, Maybe I don't want to do this

8:51

right now. You can set up policies that

8:53

you're not going to hit the computer and do online

8:55

shopping after you had a glass of wine, right,

8:58

I mean those no, because those are the sorts

9:00

of things they

9:02

Yeah, it's not always about

9:04

not spending. No, Sometimes it's about

9:07

spending on things that you really

9:10

value that you really want to spend the money

9:12

on. But saving is the harder challenge.

9:15

Spending is way too easy, and saving,

9:17

which is not a lot of fun, is way too

9:19

hard. And so the other thing that we can do

9:22

really effectively is automate

9:24

ourselves into good behavior. We

9:26

can take a cue

9:29

from four oh one ks, which

9:31

have been shown to be pretty

9:33

much the most successful

9:36

savings tool that we have in this

9:38

country, and the reason they work is

9:40

because you don't have to think about it. The you

9:43

you get a deposit

9:46

in your four oh one K is made automatically

9:48

comes right out of your paycheck. You never see

9:51

it, you never touch it, so you never spend

9:53

it. And there are these

9:56

barriers that are set up in the form

9:58

of taxes and penalties at further

10:02

dissuade you from getting

10:04

it the money. And so if we can do that

10:06

in other parts of our lives, make

10:09

automatic savings decisions

10:12

just happen, then we

10:15

really buy ourselves a lot of success.

10:17

Now four o one case are on the decline

10:20

a little bit because companies

10:22

where we live in a gig economy now and

10:25

companies are increasingly people

10:27

are are more in the freelance mode. So

10:30

can you give us a quick idea

10:32

of if you don't have a four oh one K, what can you do?

10:34

Yeah, you can basically rig

10:36

up your own and you can you

10:39

can actually do what's called a solo

10:41

for oh one k, but you can also just open

10:43

an ira um a roth ira

10:46

where you've already paid taxes on

10:48

that money and you never have to pay taxes again,

10:50

or a traditional IRA And

10:52

for this year, we can put in up to six thousand

10:55

dollars into these accounts, plus

10:57

another thousand if you're over fifty.

10:59

But to make it successful, you

11:01

have to automate. You can't rely

11:05

on this human brain that is

11:07

wired for impulsivity

11:10

to do the right thing all the

11:12

time. And so just make it easy. Set

11:14

up an open an I R A, tell

11:17

that brokerage firm to automatically

11:20

reach its hands into your checking account

11:22

and pull five bucks

11:24

out or whatever you can afford every single

11:27

month. Put the money into

11:29

a pre set portfolio

11:32

that makes sense for you, a mix

11:34

of stocks and bonds, and you're done.

11:36

And then you can just visit it over time

11:38

and feel good about the fact that you've done it, set

11:41

it, and forget it. When we come back,

11:43

we're gonna talk more about Women

11:45

with Money.

11:56

We are talking with Jane Chatsky,

11:58

the inn best

12:01

selling author and

12:04

the financial editor of the Today Show in her spare

12:06

time. Yes, my goodness, wonder woman

12:08

here no um, and we're

12:10

getting our financial lives in order. UM.

12:13

But I specifically want to talk about

12:16

your latest book, which is Women with Money.

12:18

How are women different

12:21

than men with money? Why is that a topic?

12:23

And and how Jill and

12:25

I are both women and a lot of our listeners

12:27

are women. Um, how can we optimize

12:30

our relationship with money. I was

12:32

really taken Jill

12:35

with the story that you told at the top

12:37

of the show about being

12:39

conservative and wanting security, because

12:42

I, in doing the research for

12:44

this book, asked hundreds

12:46

of women, what do you want? What do you want

12:49

from your money? And security

12:52

was the very first

12:54

thing that came out of their mouths, And not

12:57

not the words security

13:01

of the time, but safety

13:03

and stability

13:05

and savings

13:07

in the bank. And it

13:10

manifested itself. We didn't

13:13

just want a home, we wanted a home

13:15

with a paid off mortgage. And we didn't just

13:17

want a car. We wanted a safe

13:19

car. And I went back into

13:21

my own life and looked at it after

13:24

going through these interviews and realized, oh

13:26

my god, there is a Volvo wagon in my

13:28

garage, right. I want

13:31

these I want these things too, And

13:33

only once we get past this

13:37

need for safety do

13:39

we allow ourselves to want some of

13:41

these other things. Was this true

13:43

across generations? Do you find millennial women

13:46

say this as well? Often even more

13:49

because well, when we surprise

13:51

their child bearing years, it's

13:53

all biological. What's the best survival

13:56

possibility for my offspring? I think

13:58

that that's definitely part of it. But I also

14:00

think Millennials grew up in

14:04

this era where their parents

14:06

financial world was rocked in

14:08

two thousand and eight. They saw their

14:10

parents lose jobs, lose houses,

14:13

lose portfolios,

14:16

retirement security, and

14:18

they're entering the workplace at

14:21

a time when the workplace isn't stable. So

14:24

you know, they're more likely where

14:27

you can't really count on

14:29

a company to be your partner

14:32

in financial wellness,

14:34

freedom, stability, all of it. Right, So they're

14:37

trying to do impossible things

14:39

like put together an emergency

14:41

cushion and find their own health insurance

14:44

and yes, save

14:46

for this some day retirement

14:49

whatever it's going to look like fifty years

14:51

from now down the road. Not

14:54

having that important corporate partner

14:56

that many of us were lucky to have at least

14:59

for a little a little while, and that's

15:01

so scary that it makes

15:05

it makes them more likely

15:07

to hold onto savings. What we know about

15:09

millennials is that they are actually really good

15:11

savers. They're not great

15:14

at getting themselves to invest. They

15:17

want them they want the cash in the

15:20

bank, and that is

15:22

dangerous for

15:24

money because you

15:27

earn nothing on it. You you lose

15:30

money after taxes and inflation.

15:32

You know, it's the irony

15:35

is that all of this wanting

15:38

of safety and stability actually

15:40

makes us less financially secure. We

15:42

have to get to the point where we can

15:45

invest in order to get

15:48

ahead, and it's a really tough

15:51

leap for a lot of people to make, a lot of women

15:53

to make. So you need to take

15:55

a little risk in order to have

15:57

any gain at all. Yeah, how

16:00

do you get people that? How

16:02

do you get that message across, especially if you're

16:04

really worried about about

16:07

not having enough yea, so I

16:10

um I ask those

16:13

women who do have four O n

16:15

k is and other retirement accounts

16:17

to look at those because what we

16:20

often don't realize is that we're investing

16:22

already. You know, we're already doing

16:24

it, and in most cases we're already

16:27

doing it very well. And if you can get

16:29

yourself to acknowledge that you've already got

16:32

this skill, then sometimes

16:34

you can own it and that will give you more confidence.

16:37

If you're just starting, you've

16:39

got to start small and then watch

16:42

the fact that you can actually do this.

16:44

Even if you just put a hundred dollars

16:47

into a brokerage account

16:49

with a robo advisor, that that makes

16:51

the choices of the investments for you.

16:54

Or you just put it into an index

16:56

fund through through an IRA or

16:58

a roth IRA. If you keep

17:01

adding to it it on

17:03

a regular basis, it

17:05

does give you a sense

17:08

that you are able to accomplish this. What

17:10

if the issue isn't you. What if the issue is trust

17:12

in the system. And I think what you said was millennials

17:14

witnessed, you know, the crash.

17:17

What if I'm not putting it in the

17:19

roth ira A or using a RoboCop

17:22

RoboCop, see your mind

17:24

is going a robo investor because I don't

17:27

trust them, not me, I

17:29

am. I completely understand where

17:31

you're going. And I think we need to do

17:33

research into firms

17:35

that we trust, make sure that

17:38

we find a company that

17:40

we feel comfortable with. But

17:43

abdicating isn't the answer, because abdicating

17:45

means putting the money in the mattress and and

17:47

that does absolutely nobody

17:50

any good. And the system that we have is

17:52

not perfect, but

17:55

it's the system that we have and we've got to just

17:57

go with it. Yeah, So

18:00

money is really helpful

18:02

when you're facing a U turn. Often

18:05

you turns um

18:07

sort of rock your world because

18:10

you don't feel like you have the financial stability

18:12

to weather them. So help

18:15

us, help us around that, help us with the

18:17

idea, particularly for women. Um,

18:20

since that's the focus of your book, how can

18:22

you shore yourself up so

18:24

you feel better able to handle the inevitable

18:27

you turns when they come and if you're

18:29

not so short up and then you term

18:32

sideswipe too, what do you do?

18:34

Let's take that last part of the question first,

18:36

because I think that's usually the scenario.

18:39

We just think we just don't expect

18:41

these things when they happen. Even even

18:43

things like retirement take about six people

18:46

by surprise, which is shocking, but

18:48

you know your company downsize as all of a sudden,

18:51

you're retired and you didn't expect to be

18:53

retired for another ten years. It's

18:57

really important at any

18:59

sort of life transition to

19:01

get honest with your numbers. And

19:04

numbers are really scary for a lot of people. They're

19:06

scary for a lot of women. But you

19:08

need to look at your costs.

19:11

You need to look at what you have in savings,

19:13

what you have in investments, what you

19:15

have coming in, but more importantly, what you've

19:17

got going out. Because the

19:20

money going out is more controllable.

19:23

You can do things

19:26

too reduce

19:28

your cost outlay in a lot

19:30

of ways. And and sometimes there are little things,

19:33

right we I'm so sick of the coffee

19:35

example, but we hear it all the time that

19:37

you know, stop buying the coffee, stoff going out

19:39

to lunch. And and that

19:42

may do the trick for

19:44

people who are looking to make some budgetary

19:46

tweaks, it's not going to do the trick if you're facing

19:49

a major you turn, You've got to look at the big stuff.

19:51

You've got to look at where am I living, and what am

19:53

I driving? And what am I spending

19:56

on education for my

19:58

kids? And what am I spending on healthcare?

20:01

And are there any of those costs

20:03

that I can control in a more significant

20:06

way. You know, a friend of mine um

20:09

went through a divorce a few years ago and

20:11

they owned this beautiful, beautiful

20:13

brown stone which she initially

20:16

felt like, you know, I'm going to buy my husband out of

20:18

this. I gotta have this house. And when

20:20

she sold it and downsized,

20:23

she was so unbelievably happy.

20:26

It changed everything, and

20:28

it changed her view of the u turn

20:30

of divorce because suddenly

20:32

she was making choices instead of

20:34

scrabbling to maintain something that wasn't

20:38

She wasn't sustainable anymore.

20:41

Yeah, I mean I did the same thing. When I

20:43

got divorced. I my husband and I had

20:45

decided that I was going to be the one to move because

20:47

I just couldn't. It was too much house

20:49

for me to manage. I didn't want to do it,

20:52

but I consciously made

20:54

this decision to buy a house

20:56

that was smaller than I could afford. That

20:58

was something I could actually manage on my

21:00

own and that I could. Um.

21:04

That gave me the freedom to put money in

21:06

the bank, because at that point in

21:08

my life, savings in

21:10

the bank were the only thing that made

21:13

me feel secure and safe. Is

21:15

there ever ever a time when you told

21:17

that story? Is funny because we got the exact opposite

21:20

advice when we were very young. UM,

21:22

And I'm I'm wondering if there's ever time in your life

21:25

where you actually are on an upward

21:28

um trajectory of earning power

21:30

and it's okay to spend more

21:33

than you might not be comfortable with. Because when we bought

21:35

our first apartment and it believed me it was not

21:37

luxurious, it was not. It

21:39

was one bedroom and there were

21:41

three of us and then four and a

21:44

rabbit, and

21:46

we slept in the in the living

21:49

room. But our friends said to us, he said,

21:51

listen, you're gonna be making more money next

21:53

year than you are this year, and in three years

21:55

is gonna be making more money than you are the year after

21:58

that. Buy something that's wretches

22:00

you a little, because as soon as you can afford

22:02

it, you're gonna hate it and you're gonna want to move.

22:05

So at least this way, you'll be like relatively

22:08

happy for ten years in the same

22:10

place because it's a little above

22:12

what you need right now or what you can afford right

22:14

now, but it's a little less than you can afford advertised.

22:17

Over there's ten years, it makes sense? Is that? Is

22:19

that a totally stupid piece of advice? Not

22:21

at all? Okay, not no, not at all. And

22:23

in fact, when when I bought that

22:25

house originally with my ex husband,

22:27

we did exactly the same thing. We looked

22:29

at where we were in our careers

22:32

and where we were likely to be in our careers.

22:34

And especially if you're

22:36

you've just gotten a degree, or you

22:39

are looking at a

22:41

relatively predictable

22:44

income stream, or you're you're running

22:46

your own business or your own gig, and you've

22:49

been watching the numbers and you've been seeing that

22:51

you're actually doing better

22:54

every single year, then I think

22:56

it's it's a fine thing to do. And the other thing

22:59

is and and this is just something

23:01

to keep in mind. Assets are

23:03

fungible, right. I mean, it might

23:05

not be fun to sell the house

23:08

and to move. It might not be fun to

23:11

take money that you had put aside

23:13

for one thing and just use it for something else.

23:16

But we can do that, right. We just have to

23:18

sit down and plan out a

23:20

way to do it that makes sense. When we

23:22

come back, we're going to talk more about money

23:24

with Jeane Chatsky.

23:36

We're talking about money. Who have Jeane

23:38

Chatsky? And do you say, Jean,

23:40

that there are only five things

23:43

that we actually need to know about

23:45

money? Can you walk us through those five five

23:48

things that we need to do actually and

23:50

we have to do

23:52

them. We have to do them on a consistent

23:55

basis. But if if you can, if

23:57

you can get yourself to actually

23:59

do the things, than what you quickly

24:02

realize is that it's not a lot of rocket science.

24:04

It's just good habits. And so the

24:06

first thing you gotta do is make money right, and you

24:09

have to make you gotta make not win

24:11

the lottery, No, but you gotta make a decent

24:13

amount of money. But it doesn't have to be an absurd

24:15

amount of money because what we

24:17

know is that as long as we can live comfortably,

24:20

and that means you can pay your mortgage,

24:23

you can pay your rent, you

24:25

can drive a car that isn't going

24:27

to break down on the highway, and you

24:29

can go out to eat and on vacation every

24:32

once in a while. Once you've got those

24:34

things, more money is not going to make you more happy.

24:36

Um. So there is definitely

24:39

there's a lot of research backing that up that

24:42

that you know, once once you've

24:44

got the basics plus a couple

24:47

reasonable luxuries covered, it's

24:49

not you're not gonna get happier feeling

24:51

that threshold, right. So that's something

24:53

important to keep in mind. The second thing is

24:56

that you have to spend less than you make, and

24:58

you've got to do it can instantly um.

25:01

And that is where many many people

25:03

get into trouble because credit is

25:05

far too free flowing. Um.

25:08

But figuring out what you have

25:10

coming in and what you have going out is the trick

25:12

to making sure that that happens. The

25:14

third thing, you've got to take the money that you're not spending

25:17

and put it to work. So not

25:19

just money under the mattress as we've

25:21

been talking about, but money

25:24

in investments where they

25:27

are set up

25:29

so that over time they will produce

25:31

more money for you. This is the making money

25:34

as we sleep that we all aspire

25:36

to. Fourth, we've got to protect

25:38

this financial life that we're building, which means

25:41

health insurance. If you've got dependents,

25:43

you need life insurance. We all

25:45

need, you know, mortgage and

25:48

home and auto insurance if we have those

25:50

assets, and we need

25:52

an estate plan, just a basic one to

25:54

make sure that the people and

25:57

the things that we love are

25:59

taking care of as well. So at the very minimum,

26:01

if you've got kids or assets

26:03

that you care about, you have to have a will. And

26:06

Fifth, you got to give back, and you have

26:08

to give back in a way that is

26:11

really meaningful to you. So whether you volunteer,

26:13

whether you give money, whether you

26:17

have some other charitable

26:20

organization that you're involved in, it

26:23

does boost happiness. And so that's

26:25

why that one's on the list. Doing something

26:27

useful with your money exactly. Yeah.

26:30

Interesting, Um, I heard you

26:33

talking recently on your podcast

26:36

Her Money about women

26:38

being more open with one another and even

26:41

maybe touching the third rail

26:43

here telling each other what we earned.

26:46

Um, can we talk

26:48

about to have a position on that, an

26:50

official position? Is it something that

26:52

we're all just still feeling out. I

26:55

think the millennials are

26:57

leading the way here. They're much more

27:00

willing to share these

27:02

sorts of numbers. I'm I'm

27:05

for it in theory and in practice,

27:08

I think it's really really hard because

27:11

what you don't want is to come

27:14

into the office the next day

27:16

and hate the person at the next desk

27:19

because you know that they're making more

27:21

than you are and you feel like you're producing

27:23

more than they are, and it just sets

27:25

the whole place of fire. And so my

27:27

new theory on this is that

27:30

the very best time to share

27:32

salary information is on your way

27:34

out the door, one person at

27:37

a time. If you're leaving a job

27:39

and you want

27:42

to help the other women

27:44

in your organization rise

27:46

up and earn what they deserve, that's

27:48

the time to tell somebody,

27:51

a couple of people, hey, this is how much

27:53

you should be asking for, and then you can go

27:55

and you don't have to go back, and

27:57

they can use that information to get more

28:00

m All right, that

28:02

makes sense. It totally makes sense.

28:05

I do remember leaving a job once and

28:07

finding out, um, it

28:10

was the opposite. I found out what other people had

28:12

made, and

28:15

um, it was a little painful, yeah,

28:18

because you know, there were I

28:21

was working my butt off and in a pretty

28:23

pivotal role in this organization, and

28:25

there were people, for very good market reasons,

28:28

who were making a bunch more than me.

28:31

Um. But hierarchically

28:33

it didn't make sense, and and responsibility

28:36

wise, it didn't make sense at all. And I

28:38

think the market reasons are the reasons that

28:41

we often don't understand and don't um

28:44

acknowledge, And you're right, they

28:46

exist for a whole bunch

28:48

of of reasons. Somebody came

28:50

in from a job where they

28:53

were earning more and the company had

28:55

to pay them more to get

28:57

them to come. I had

28:59

an I had an incident with

29:01

an early boss of mine at a

29:03

magazine who I went in I asked

29:05

for a raise. I presented the fact

29:08

that I was actually producing a lot

29:10

more than I was being paid for, and he said, I'd

29:12

love to give you a raise. Go get another

29:14

offer, um, because I need

29:16

to be able to justify it to my

29:19

boss. And so you

29:21

know, I did that I felt kind of bad about it because

29:23

I had no intention of going to the other

29:25

place, but it

29:27

it, Uh, it worked. How do you

29:30

accurately assess your value in the workplace?

29:33

Because we all think we're superstars, right of course

29:35

you should pay me everything. Um,

29:38

So just your own sense of self

29:41

worth should not be how you

29:43

determine what you get paid. Now,

29:46

you can do research there. There's a lot of research

29:48

on the internet these days. There's there's sites

29:50

like pay scale and

29:53

glass door where salary

29:55

dot com where you can actually get a

29:57

decent sense. And then I to

30:00

look at the ads the company is

30:02

running for new employees. Because

30:04

if it's a new employee sort of at your level,

30:07

and you can see what they're offering

30:09

to pay that person, it's a pretty good barometer

30:11

too. I like these is a very crafty

30:14

crafty This is what you get when

30:16

you're married to an executive recruiter. Um.

30:20

And And let's just return

30:22

for a second since you've mentioned um

30:25

marriage and I know your wonderful

30:27

husband as well, who's an executive recruiter. Um,

30:31

how do you money? Compatibility

30:34

is a whole other level

30:37

of compatibility, and you

30:39

can weirdly find people

30:41

who are wonderfully well suited to

30:43

one another, except in that one and that one

30:46

Alright, if you're in a relationship with someone that's serious,

30:48

so much so that your financial lives are somewhat

30:51

enmeshed, what are you looking for in

30:53

terms of compatibility? And are you implying

30:55

the Elliott's like a spendthrift

30:58

now, please, it's the other way around. Um.

31:02

But I think Elliott listens to you. I think that's the

31:04

most important. He

31:07

does listen to me your marriage right there.

31:09

But he also pushes me to be a little

31:11

less conservative than I would normally be. UM.

31:15

And I think the most

31:17

important thing people have to realize

31:20

is that just because you love somebody, you

31:22

aren't going to be the same financially. You're going to

31:24

have different goals and you're going to have different wants.

31:27

And if you get

31:29

into a position where one person

31:32

is making the rules,

31:34

that feels really parental, and

31:36

and that's not good

31:38

for a marriage. I think it's important

31:41

that each person has the ability

31:43

to spend some money,

31:46

gives some money away, save some money

31:48

without asking permission. And

31:50

that can be having a

31:52

pool of money that's your own, having

31:54

a separate account. It can just be drawing

31:57

a line in the sand that you under

32:00

this amount of money. We don't have to talk

32:02

about it. It's you know, we we can afford

32:04

this, and nobody's going to go crazy.

32:07

But if I want to go and have lunch with my girlfriends,

32:09

or you want to go and do whatever

32:11

it is you want to do, go,

32:14

you know, have fun. It's not if

32:18

each a little bit of a slush fund that you can

32:20

tap without permission and argument.

32:23

Yeah, exactly, And and there

32:26

is no need to defend

32:29

what you do with that money. It's it's

32:31

your money, it's your decision.

32:33

It's personal, and it

32:36

doesn't mean that you don't love

32:38

the other person if they disagree with your use

32:40

of it. It's just this. Different people

32:42

have different needs and and marriage doesn't

32:44

change that. My husband has a

32:47

penchant for a certain vintage

32:49

of Russian watch. They're

32:52

very inexpensive, thank you God,

32:54

thank you God. But he

32:57

is tracking them on eBay all the time.

32:59

And I would say once every couple of months,

33:02

I looked out at his wrist and it's a different

33:04

one. What.

33:08

There's also a certain kind of Japanese

33:10

robot. Really it's a

33:12

children's toy, and

33:15

we built a special shelf to

33:17

house them. None of these things are expensive,

33:20

by the way, but the shelf,

33:23

which was expensive to build, is

33:25

not big enough anymore for all the

33:27

Japanese robots. Okay,

33:30

that's it. I'm introduced

33:34

you to the to the shoe department.

33:36

It stacks and you can show him what it feels

33:38

like exactly. Okay,

33:41

So we're one of the things you mentioned earlier

33:44

in this interview. You said that

33:46

you needed to earn

33:49

money while you're sleeping, make your

33:51

money work for your You're not only

33:53

working for money, but you

33:55

also have said that investment

33:58

with investment strategies boring is better.

34:00

Yes. Why

34:02

why is boring better? Because

34:05

when it comes to investments,

34:08

for the most part um,

34:11

low cost simple

34:14

portfolios where you put work

34:17

into figuring out what

34:20

sort of asset allocation you

34:22

need the percentage of your money

34:24

that should be in stocks and in bonds

34:26

and in cash takes

34:28

care of most of the problem. And

34:31

that's a really simple thing to do.

34:33

You can put your money into a target date

34:35

retirement fund and it'll

34:38

handle the asset allocation decisions

34:41

for you. We we

34:43

get caught up, women in particular,

34:45

get caught up in this idea

34:48

that to be a good investor. You

34:50

have to be trading, you have to

34:52

be in the market picking stocks,

34:55

you have to be watching what the markets

34:57

do every day, and

34:59

I would argue that would make you a bad investor.

35:02

You know that a day treator is a bad investor,

35:04

Well, a day trader is. That's a different

35:07

business. That's not People

35:09

who have jobs that that we

35:12

go to every day and businesses that we go

35:14

to every day don't have time to be day traders

35:16

and shouldn't be trying to do all

35:18

of these things that take a lot of research and

35:20

strategy. You can

35:23

put your money into a

35:25

very straightforward portfolio, keep

35:27

adding to it over time, and

35:30

that'll do it. You know that getting

35:33

the returns that the market has generated,

35:36

not beating the market, just being in

35:38

the market and meeting

35:41

the market where it is has

35:43

been enough for people over

35:45

the course of history. Great advice. Jeane Chatsky,

35:48

Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for

35:50

having listeners. To get more

35:52

soothing and calming wisdom

35:55

from Jean Chatsky, go to her money

35:57

dot com, the platform the Chene

35:59

runs. Also find her at Geen Chatsky

36:02

on Twitter. Gene, thank you so

36:04

much for joining us. I also want to do a shout out

36:06

to Alicia Hayward are terrific producer who

36:08

put this together Today into

36:11

you listeners, reach out to us at You

36:13

Turns Podcast, and don't forget to

36:15

rate and review. Thanks everybody,