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1:08

Hello and welcome to Rock and

1:10

Roll Politics, the podcast with me, Steve

1:12

Richards. Well, what a few days.

1:14

And as I pledged earlier in the week,

1:17

and when I pledge, I keep to my pledges.

1:20

We needed to get together again for a second

1:22

time in an attempt to delve deep

1:25

and make sense of it all. So

1:28

if it's okay with all of you, this is going to be

1:30

the kind of structure of what is

1:32

becoming a cliche now because everyone say, oh, it's

1:34

time for an emergency podcast. But

1:38

this is a cause

1:40

for an emergency podcast. So

1:42

a few notices, then

1:45

a few reflections on me. Remember where

1:48

we left off in our time together

1:50

earlier in the week. We had had the dramatic

1:53

reshuffle. But since then we've had the

1:56

court judgment on Rwanda.

1:59

and the vote

2:02

on the ceasefire vis-a-vis

2:05

Israel Gaza in the House of Commons.

2:08

So huge amounts to make

2:11

sense of. Of course,

2:13

last time, very unusually,

2:15

it was all so fast

2:17

moving and quite late on that

2:20

I didn't have time to read out your brilliant questions.

2:23

So we'll get to as many as those

2:25

as is possible. But remember,

2:27

we get together again very early

2:30

next week to make sense of it all.

2:32

So more time then. Sorry if I

2:34

don't read your questions out. They've

2:36

been flying in and all brilliant,

2:39

but as many as possible. Just

2:42

a couple of notices. The

2:44

big one, please subscribe to the Patreon

2:47

version of Rock and Roll Politics. I know many

2:49

of you do, because if you

2:51

do, you can join us for one of

2:53

our live gatherings.

2:56

It's this coming Thursday, November

2:58

the 23rd. And

3:01

some of you will know the way we kind of structure this

3:03

is I give a little opening

3:05

few reflections. By the way, this is the day after

3:08

Jeremy Hunt's autumn statement, a

3:11

statement where I suspect all this talk

3:13

about the cliche

3:15

of Sunak leaping to the

3:17

center ground will be further challenged.

3:20

But anyway, we'll find out. Yeah,

3:23

and then we have a wider discussion and people appear

3:26

on screen and it's great. And it's

3:28

very much the cooperative within the cooperative.

3:31

So if you do subscribe, you get loads of other bonuses

3:34

as well. So that would be great. What

3:37

else? Yeah, the rope tackle in

3:39

Shoram. The postponed

3:42

Rock and Roll Politics is next

3:44

Monday. Anyone on the south coast

3:46

and anywhere, please do come along. And

3:49

then, of course, the Christmas

3:51

special live at King's Place

3:54

on December the 18th, where

3:56

we look back on this crazy year and

3:58

dare to look ahead. on what

4:00

is going to be a very intense election

4:04

year, assuming he holds it next

4:06

year, which I think he will in the autumn.

4:09

But anyway, glasses of wine

4:12

will flow, so do come along and

4:14

you can book these on

4:16

the blurb to the podcast or at the relevant

4:19

websites. I think

4:22

those are the notices. Yeah,

4:25

they are. So just a few

4:27

thoughts from me. First of

4:29

all, as you know, we like to delve

4:31

deep and contextualize, but let's... For

4:35

the biggest picture of all, vis-a-vis

4:38

the boats, Rwanda, and

4:41

that court judgment. What

4:44

is totally bonkers

4:46

about it is that it's as if, in

4:49

a way, everything else in the UK

4:52

is fine, because the

4:55

amount of political energy

4:57

that's going to be sucked up in

5:00

trying to, one

5:04

way or another, get round this

5:06

unequivocal court judgment about

5:10

the illegality of the

5:12

Rwanda scheme as currently proposed

5:15

will be incredible. There will, first of

5:17

all, be this so-called emergency

5:20

legislation. Will it meet the

5:22

demands of right-wing Tory MPs?

5:25

If not, what will they do? We are

5:27

back to a Brexit dynamic,

5:30

where this party, the Conservative

5:33

Party, which has become impossible

5:36

to lead, really, for decades now, will

5:39

test the Tory leadership

5:42

again. And will it lead

5:45

to an attempt to bring about

5:47

a Brexit-style divide of

5:50

the Tories claiming to

5:52

speak for the people against the

5:55

elites, that dangerous divide

5:57

that Johnson sought? successfully

6:00

to put in place in the autumn of 2019. Do

6:03

you remember Parliament versus the people?

6:07

The elected parliament elected by

6:09

the people apparently in opposition to

6:11

the people. Will it be

6:14

this noble Tory government

6:16

against the judges, against

6:19

others? Of course,

6:21

Europe is back in it again, the

6:24

European Convention on Human

6:26

Rights, and the bizarre

6:29

thing about that judgment on

6:32

Wednesday, that dramatic Wednesday,

6:34

another pivotal day in this wild

6:37

parliament. It came from a British

6:39

court. It didn't come from Europe,

6:42

and yet there was soon that saying we won't let Europe

6:45

block us from sending people to Rwanda.

6:48

So a huge amount of political

6:50

energy is going to be sucked up on

6:53

this single issue. And

6:55

yet we live in a country where

6:59

nothing bloody works. There

7:02

was a good column the other day, I read from

7:05

someone who I know quite well, Jenny Russell

7:07

in the Times, who listed the kind of things,

7:10

you know, you post a letter, you're not sure it's going to

7:12

be delivered when it's meant to be delivered. You

7:14

go to a train station, you're not sure you're going to

7:16

be able to get the train. And if you get the train, whether

7:18

it will arrive on time or disrupt all

7:21

plans, you get in a car, and

7:24

try and go somewhere. And

7:26

here I became the driver's friend in alliance

7:28

with Rishi Sunak. And you've no idea

7:31

whether you're going to be stuck at 30 miles

7:33

per hour. And if you go above it, you get

7:35

a fine. And then you arrive exhausted

7:38

eight hours later, you can't get a GP's

7:40

appointment. And if you do and have to see

7:42

a hospital, you're

7:45

in a never ending delay. This

7:47

is and let's not forget the

7:49

sewage being pumped into the sea and

7:51

rivers and so on. This is

7:53

a country in deep crisis.

7:57

And yet the focus will be on the boats. And

7:59

Rwanda. And the

8:02

court judgment was so unequivocal,

8:05

a sane government would

8:08

accept it and move on. But

8:11

of course, we're not in the realms of reason

8:13

now. We are back in

8:16

the realms of a Tory

8:19

party, the party that rules Britain

8:21

most of the time, in another

8:24

of its heightened state

8:26

of neurosis. And

8:28

then very dangerous and odd

8:30

things start to happen. And

8:33

as I say, the dangerous and odd thing that starts

8:35

to happen now is this

8:38

focus on this issue. You

8:40

watch the media being dominated

8:42

by the vote in the Commons, what

8:44

Labour is going to do, and all

8:47

the rest of it in the coming

8:49

weeks and months, as we all

8:51

try and struggle our way around

8:54

daily life in the

8:56

United Kingdom. Historians from

8:59

the right to the left will look back in bewildered

9:01

fascination. Now, that's

9:03

not to say that this is not

9:05

an issue. I know it is. People

9:07

tell me,

9:09

Labour MPs, as much as Tory MPs,

9:12

that the boats comes up all the time on the doorstep.

9:15

It is on one level bizarre because it comes

9:18

up in places wholly unaffected

9:20

by it. But

9:23

as Michael Heseltine has observed, it was

9:25

this kind of fear

9:28

of foreigners in

9:30

inverted commas that drove the Brexit

9:32

vote to some extent. And

9:35

this clearly propels the

9:37

boat issue up the concerns

9:39

of voters. So

9:42

the issue becomes how you deal with it. Now,

9:44

this is incredibly complicated.

9:48

But what is so interesting is

9:50

how when there is

9:53

a global crisis involving

9:55

money,

9:56

countries can come together

9:58

in an attempt to deal with it.

9:59

So in 2008, we

10:02

had the global financial crash. And

10:06

under the leadership of the likes of

10:08

Gordon Brown and the newly elected

10:11

glittering President Obama,

10:14

countries came together and

10:17

coordinated a fiscal

10:20

stimulus and other

10:23

economic weapons in

10:25

an attempt together to

10:28

deal with that crash. Now

10:30

clearly what is happening here with

10:33

asylum seekers is a global

10:36

crisis of a similar

10:40

intensity. And yet countries

10:42

are wholly incapable

10:45

of coming together. There was a very interesting

10:48

model here when we had

10:50

the crisis in Syria. And

10:52

of course, we had various

10:55

leaders expressing horror

10:58

at what was going on in Syria. Do you remember

11:00

there was the image of that baby on the

11:02

beach and so on? And

11:05

Merkel in Germany announced

11:08

a proposition to coordinate

11:11

taking people in from Syria

11:14

across the EU. And she assumed

11:16

it would be a relatively straightforward

11:20

set of levers to

11:22

pull to address the immediate

11:25

crisis. But of course, it became impossible. The

11:28

opposite happened. Even countries

11:30

like Sweden, Austria, and so

11:32

on, so feared that this would

11:35

trigger a further rise of the populist

11:37

right. There was no cooperation. And

11:40

indeed, she got into trouble herself within

11:42

Germany. It partly explains

11:45

the rise. This is where the rise

11:47

began of the right wing AFD

11:50

party in Germany. And there

11:52

was no coordination. But

11:55

that is what is required in

11:57

the end because you're not dealing with

11:59

an individual country

12:02

capable of responding

12:04

in a way that addresses the issue.

12:07

And of course in Britain, Brexit has made

12:09

it worse. There was a mechanism with France

12:12

to at least seek to

12:15

control the degree to

12:17

which asylum seekers were moving around.

12:20

Between certainly the French and British borders, that

12:22

went with Brexit, Lord Frosty Frost.

12:24

You know, they actually, the EU negotiators

12:27

said, we should keep this. Frost

12:29

said, no, no, no, we're going it alone. We're going

12:31

it alone. The fall. By

12:35

the way, I see Frost tweeting about

12:37

the Tories dire opinion poll ratings,

12:40

as if he's a sort of innocent commentator

12:42

instead of a player in

12:44

the last 14 years. Anyway,

12:48

so it requires really

12:51

deep engagement with the issue

12:54

and with other countries as

12:57

part of the solution. Instead,

13:00

we have the situation

13:02

with a government that

13:05

now all have to pretend the

13:07

solution is Rwanda. I say

13:09

pretend because we

13:11

know that James cleverly in

13:13

his new role, he's been in two

13:16

days. It is a farce the way we do these

13:18

things as home secretary. Didn't

13:21

deny. He

13:23

described this Rwanda policy as

13:25

batshit at one point. So

13:29

he knows the problems. Sunak,

13:32

who is very right wing and

13:34

I think probably genuinely furious

13:37

with the courts and so on, but he is

13:39

also forensic and he will know

13:41

the scale of the challenge, but

13:43

is too weak to explain that

13:46

to the right of his party. Weak

13:48

as in too into weaker position to

13:51

do so. It's too much

13:54

of a caricature. So these people are inherently

13:56

weak that he's in a weak position.

14:00

And so you go along, Cameron

14:02

tweeted, oh, we must protect our borders. This

14:04

figure, I knew this would happen. David

14:07

Cameron's return would

14:09

be lazily portrayed

14:12

by supposedly impartial broadcasters

14:15

as a move back to the center ground because

14:18

he, Cameron, is a centrist. Now,

14:20

I say you can agree or disagree with him, and

14:23

I've met him a few times,

14:25

liked him, but he's a figure

14:27

of the right in terms of economic policy.

14:30

Look at their response to the global financial

14:33

crash. David Cameron

14:35

and George Osborne were the only leaders

14:38

of a mainstream Western party who

14:40

in 2008 responded

14:43

to that crash by calling for real-term spending

14:45

cuts. And that

14:47

was not the response even of President

14:50

Bush in the United States in

14:52

his dying days as President

14:54

before Obama came in. But

14:58

that was their kind of response, and it was in consultation

15:00

with Nigel Lawson and Jeffrey Howe. They

15:03

are figures of the 1980s

15:05

in terms of economic policy

15:08

to the right of Thatcher, actually, who never imposed

15:10

real-term spending cuts. But

15:13

anyway, there's Cameron now saying, we've got to protect

15:15

our borders fully behind. He must have discussed

15:18

this with Sunak. They are all

15:20

going to apply

15:23

huge amounts of political capital

15:25

and energy in trying to get a few

15:28

people to Rwanda before

15:30

the general election. And

15:32

if they fail, they will try

15:35

to blame Labour and the North

15:37

London elites, lawyers like

15:40

Keir Starmer. That

15:42

clearly is the strategy. And

15:45

whether they can play the same trick again, who

15:47

knows? But that is the trick

15:50

they will seek to play.

15:52

And as I say, it's kind of you to spare

15:55

on so many different levels. Another level

15:57

that you despair is... Why

16:00

the heck did they pursue this

16:04

when they must have been advised

16:07

that it was not going

16:09

to pass remotely

16:11

the kind of legal tests? It

16:13

wasn't just the ECHR that

16:15

was being violated. Several other laws

16:18

were being challenged by this proposition

16:21

according to the unequivocal court

16:23

judgment. And here, of course, the

16:25

answer again is the politics of the Conservative

16:28

Party. If you remember, the

16:31

proposal to send asylum seekers to Rwanda

16:33

was made by Johnson in a big speech.

16:36

I think it was one Friday when he was

16:39

in deep trouble for lying over the parties

16:41

and all kinds of other things. And

16:43

it was briefed that this was part

16:45

of the so-called Operation

16:47

Save Big Dog. Again,

16:50

what a dark farce that becomes

16:52

tragedy. And so we know

16:55

what happened. There was an embryonic

16:57

plan to send people to Rwanda

17:00

that hadn't been fully thought through. But

17:02

Johnson was desperate, wanted an announcement

17:05

to please his parliamentary party

17:07

who were beginning to stir against him. So

17:09

he seized on this and

17:13

gave great hope to the fantasists

17:15

of the right who have always been

17:18

loved this idea of

17:20

taking these people, incidentally many of them

17:23

desperate, who theoretically British

17:26

government's kind of support. We're

17:28

talking about people from Afghanistan, Syria,

17:31

et cetera, et cetera. But when it

17:34

comes to it, they loved the fantasy of kicking

17:36

them off Britain and

17:38

going somewhere else. This began

17:41

with Michael Howard, who was

17:43

a, he was on the right, but a very,

17:45

again, reasonable figure, a bit like David Cameron,

17:48

a figure of the right, but very decent. I

17:50

got to know him quite well, liked him a lot, and

17:52

went to his house a few times. He was a figure

17:54

of the right. And he proposed

17:57

when he was leader to

17:59

send. asylum seekers to an island.

18:03

And Tony Blair, who was very

18:05

alert to the electoral

18:07

potential of being tough on these people,

18:10

but was able to mock it. So where is this

18:13

island? And of course, Michael Howard

18:15

couldn't answer. And Johnson

18:17

found the equivalent of an island

18:20

in Rwanda. But had not, he

18:22

wouldn't have read any of the details and wouldn't

18:24

have listened to any warnings that it wouldn't

18:26

be feasible. He wanted to

18:29

make that speech to save his own

18:31

skin. And hundreds of millions

18:33

of pounds of people have been terrified

18:35

in order to bring that

18:38

about. So on many,

18:40

many levels, it

18:43

is deeply depressing. And

18:45

we are living through another psycho

18:48

drama in a Conservative Party

18:50

that has become almost impossible to lead

18:53

really since the early 1990s.

18:55

Major was the first leader who found it

18:58

almost impossible to lead. And

19:01

so it has continued. Now

19:04

is the Labour Party becoming very

19:06

difficult to lead suddenly? Kostama

19:09

having taken over with a kind of ruthless

19:11

focus since he became

19:13

leader in 2020, faced

19:17

a big revolt over

19:20

the call for a ceasefire.

19:23

On one level, this was the exact

19:26

opposite of the boats,

19:29

in that when you go and step

19:32

a long way back from the highly

19:34

emotive, highly charged

19:37

feeling within the Labour Party

19:39

about the horrors of this situation,

19:44

there really wasn't actually a big gap

19:46

in the end between the motion that the

19:49

leadership put forward calling

19:52

for an extended pause and

19:55

an immediate ceasefire. It wasn't, you

19:58

know, the fact that against

20:00

the stammer motion, it

20:03

shows that the

20:06

sort of bipartisan approach is beginning

20:08

to shift. And so

20:10

I suspect this is

20:13

not now, in the short

20:15

term at least, an

20:18

early example of the

20:20

parliamentary Labour Party becoming

20:23

much more difficult to handle.

20:26

However, and by the way,

20:30

after it will be 14 years next year

20:32

of conservative rule, there

20:34

is enough hunger for

20:37

an election victory for

20:40

a kind of unity

20:42

to reassert itself, I

20:45

sense. But I

20:48

think there are lessons for Gistama

20:51

in that revolt. It was a revolt of MPs

20:54

from across the spectrum and

20:58

couldn't be caricatured as

21:00

the Corbinistas stirring it or whatever.

21:04

And he lost the likes of Gist

21:06

Phillips from the front bench.

21:11

And I think the lesson, clearly

21:14

a two-fold, we've been through already. I

21:17

kind of sensed at the Labour

21:20

Party conference in Liverpool

21:23

that there was a kind of

21:26

premature, a kind

21:28

of celebratory mood

21:30

over how much of the media

21:33

were saying, in Gistama's immediate

21:36

response to the horrors of October

21:39

the 7th in Israel, oh,

21:41

thank God it's not Corbin there, it's stammer.

21:44

It's a party growing up ready for government

21:46

and the spinners

21:49

were spinning all of this. I

21:52

could see trouble ahead and said on this podcast

21:54

I could see trouble ahead before

21:57

actually even I think Keir

21:59

had given his disastrous

22:02

LBC interview where he

22:04

appeared to say, and I've heard it many times, he

22:06

did say, maybe

22:08

not, he thought he was answering something else, but

22:10

he did say that Israel had the right to

22:13

block fuel and food

22:16

to Gaza as part of their

22:19

response to the hell of October

22:21

the 7th. Anyway, that was the kind

22:23

of framing, it was those days

22:26

where a framing got into

22:30

the minds of some MPs and Muslim

22:32

voters of imbalance,

22:37

and I think with some justification in

22:39

the early days. Now

22:41

that has been addressed since I think his cat-of-house

22:43

speech was much more balanced and there

22:46

was an explanation. Something

22:48

leaders need to do if they're to become political

22:51

teachers is to explain why

22:53

you are arguing for what you are doing,

22:56

not just say it and assert it, but

22:58

why. And I

23:00

think he explained his position

23:03

well then and it was more balanced and

23:06

the motion, although long and

23:09

a bit convoluted, was

23:12

also balanced. But

23:16

then Kestan would put out a statement

23:18

after the revolt saying leadership

23:20

is doing the right thing, and I have to say my

23:24

heart sank because it

23:26

was copying again something

23:29

that there is a tendency to do. I don't know

23:31

whether he's writing it or people who used to work

23:34

for Tony Blair write it. That's precisely

23:36

the kind of language Tony Blair

23:39

used in the build-up to Iraq

23:41

and in the aftermath when it was clear

23:43

it was all going wrong. I'm

23:46

doing the right thing. Leadership is about

23:49

doing the right thing. Just examine

23:51

those words. The essence

23:53

of politics is a debate about

23:56

what is the right thing to do, not least

23:58

in the context of what you are doing. something

24:00

as complex and hellish as

24:02

the Middle East. And I

24:05

think the use of that kind of language reveals

24:08

a mindset that has

24:10

underestimated the importance

24:13

of party management as

24:15

a skill and deafness and sensitivity

24:19

to party management. I

24:22

mean Blair could go around and say, I'm doing the right thing,

24:25

you know, there might be people to the right of me,

24:27

left of me complaining and stuff, but I do

24:29

the right thing with the implication

24:31

that there's a sort of godlike gift

24:34

in the leader to recognize what

24:36

is right. Now, maybe you can do that

24:39

after winning three elections, although it didn't really

24:41

help him much in terms of Iraq

24:44

to any Blair, but you can't really do that

24:46

at this stage. Although, you know,

24:48

you got this big opinion poll lead, there

24:51

is a need to engage. And I know his

24:53

office has worked really hard and Sue

24:55

Grey has chaired daily meetings

24:58

on all of this because it has caused such

25:00

a trauma within the Labour Party.

25:03

But I think there are two lessons. One is to try

25:06

and anticipate in advance the

25:09

difficulties that might erupt on

25:12

any given topic and

25:15

act accordingly from day

25:18

one, because of the LBC thing and some

25:20

of the other stuff in the early days, I think

25:23

are the background to this, but

25:26

also to engage within

25:29

a party as well. Obviously, the

25:31

main role of a leader of the opposition is to win

25:33

elections and Labour are

25:35

useless at that. But

25:38

there is party management issues as well.

25:41

Now, you know, somewhere has

25:43

lifted the language of Tony Blair again, in his

25:46

response to that Commons revolt.

25:49

But there are other models I mean, I will

25:52

look at this in more detail. I haven't done much

25:54

of this beyond interviewing Nick Thomas Simmons,

25:57

when he wrote his very good biography

25:59

on how Harold Wilson. But Wilson

26:01

is a model which you sometimes have to

26:04

apply. It's not as glamorous as

26:06

Blair's, crusading, I do the

26:08

right thing, come what may. But

26:11

sometimes you have to use the Wilsonian

26:13

skills when a party is so fundamentally

26:16

split. Although fundamental

26:18

isn't a wrong word to say that the vibe

26:20

is between a long pause and a ceasefire.

26:23

You know, these are kind of,

26:27

they are both significant and small.

26:29

But anyway, Wilsonian skills

26:31

are sometimes required a capacity to

26:34

engage with different

26:36

sections of a party that is inevitably

26:39

still a broad church. However, the

26:41

many you purge and

26:43

purging is not always the answer either

26:46

in terms of party management and

26:48

winning elections. So I do

26:50

think there are lessons, but I don't

26:53

think it will trigger a

26:55

kind of period of huge turbulence

26:58

within that parliamentary Labour Party, because

27:01

an election is looming. But

27:05

what happens after an election, I

27:08

think there are lessons about

27:10

leadership and managing parties

27:13

in government. On

27:16

the Tory side, clearly we

27:18

know a period of turbulence

27:20

has begun again.

27:23

So yeah, what

27:25

dramas?

27:36

The news! It's everywhere! It's relentless

27:38

and frankly we know some of you have tuned

27:41

out. But what if I told you we can give you

27:43

the headlines, the chunky bits, the gossip,

27:45

the scandal and even the Daily Star's

27:47

mad front pages, all in 30 minutes

27:50

every day. Introducing Papercuts,

27:53

the funniest, sharpest and wittiest way

27:55

to get your daily news. Join me

27:57

Miranda Sawyer and a host of journalists and

27:59

comedians.

28:28

worship

30:01

of Lee Rowley, the new housing minister,

30:04

the 500th housing minister. It's

30:06

not as if we've got a housing crisis in Britain,

30:08

is it? You know, with housing

30:11

ministers last about six months if they're lucky

30:13

and it's part of the madness. But

30:16

forget about a focus on housing, it's all

30:18

going to be about flying people to Rwanda.

30:21

Anyway, to your question,

30:23

oh yeah, the other thing I've had loads of brilliant questions

30:26

about the COVID inquiry and the

30:28

lessons from it, as usual, ranging

30:30

very widely. Dominique

30:32

Adjoul, our French correspondent comparing

30:35

how France is looking at the lessons learned

30:37

compared with here. But if it's all right with you, I'm

30:39

going to save those to

30:42

when Johnson and Co are

30:44

witnesses at the COVID inquiry because we've had

30:47

so much going on in

30:49

the last few days. But thank you for all your

30:51

reflections on the lessons to be learned. There

30:53

are loads. Okay, over

30:55

to your questions. Luca McCall, who

30:58

has contacted us before, I'm

31:01

a 20 year old student studying archaeology

31:04

at Glasgow University. I remember Luca.

31:07

Yeah, by the way, we have loads of students

31:10

listening to this podcast.

31:13

You know, I'm fascinated by the BBC.

31:16

They have endless meetings. How do we get younger

31:18

people? And their answer

31:20

is to be patronising and

31:22

only run things for three minutes and

31:25

you know, kind of the Laura

31:27

Coonsford Sunday program. No more than six

31:29

minutes and let's get a comedian in.

31:31

That will get younger audience. Anyway, Luca.

31:36

I know Scottish politics, the last thing on everyone's

31:38

mind at the moment. However, I think that the conflict

31:40

in the Middle East is exposed a rift between

31:42

Anna Sawa and Keir Stama that

31:45

may be a key dynamic come next year

31:47

and beyond. This rift has actually

31:49

been exposed before during the rubber-glam

31:52

by-election over the two-child

31:54

benefit cap. However, both the

31:56

SNP and Tories couldn't capitalise

31:58

on it. I would

32:01

be interested to know your thoughts on this dynamic

32:03

and how parties can disagree without

32:06

appearing divided in trouble. Yeah,

32:08

that's very interesting because this over

32:10

the ceasefire issue, Anna

32:13

Sawa, Andy Burnham and

32:17

Sadiq Khan all took a different

32:19

position to Stama. They called for an immediate

32:22

ceasefire. And in a way, Sawa

32:24

was the most interesting because he's,

32:28

the others have had clashes with Stama, especially

32:31

Andy Burnham. They don't get on, the two of them. And

32:35

Stama wrongly, in my

32:37

view, in a panic reaction to the Utsbridge

32:39

by-election defeat distanced himself from

32:42

Sadiq Khan's Ulyss

32:44

policy. But

32:47

Anna Sawa and Kistama get

32:49

on really well. Kistama recognises

32:52

what a good job Anna Sawa is doing in

32:55

Scotland and Anna Stawa recognises

32:58

a key to Labour doing well in

33:00

Scotland is Kistama. Because

33:02

if it looks as if Labour could form a UK

33:04

government, that changes the dynamic in Scotland.

33:07

And yet, he challenged him on this

33:09

most fundamental of issues. But

33:12

again, a bit like the whole PLP

33:15

internal tension, I think

33:17

we've just got to learn to

33:19

accept with devolution that

33:23

there will be differences. And

33:25

in a way, they can be healthy because

33:28

they can challenge. Labour

33:31

leaderships at Westminster tend to have

33:33

so much influence from the right-wing

33:36

media, focus groups and so on. These

33:39

other voices, I think, are important and legitimate.

33:43

And I think there is space

33:45

for these figures to take different

33:48

points of view without bringing the whole house

33:51

down. But we'll see, Luca, in

33:53

the coming months. You're right. The dynamic

33:56

is interesting.

33:59

over to Stuart Pearson. You

34:02

have a fan in Seattle and in

34:04

the liberal Pacific Northwest, you

34:06

should have many. Oh, thank you. Well, Stuart,

34:08

tell everyone in the liberal Pacific

34:10

Northwest to subscribe

34:13

to the podcast. That would be great. I

34:16

became a member of the cooperative recently and I

34:18

enjoyed your discussion about power, where

34:21

power lies. I

34:25

found Sunak's genuflection to Musk

34:27

and the projection of X on number 10 deeply

34:30

embarrassing. The truths

34:32

about musks and the reality about AI

34:35

are coming out now. Anyway,

34:38

Stuart, who is originally from Scotland,

34:40

even now in trendy Seattle, Gordon

34:45

Brown has prepared a plan for labor to devolve

34:47

power. This links to Lucas question. Why

34:49

is this not the rallying call for

34:52

Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves? Devolve

34:54

representation will better allocate

34:56

resources to regional and local

34:58

needs. People have asked me what

35:01

it was like to live in Trump's America. And the answer

35:03

is that the Northwest California and many

35:05

states were

35:08

never there. We weren't living in Trump's

35:10

US because of the power of

35:13

the individual states. Yeah, well, that's

35:15

interesting. So

35:18

the answer is partly that at the beginning of

35:20

this year, Keir Starmer did

35:23

make a big play about this saying the

35:25

big idea for him was

35:28

a historic transfer of power

35:30

away from Westminster. He even

35:32

used the phrase take back control. But

35:35

it hasn't been followed through

35:37

fully. And indeed, the year has been

35:40

marked by tensions. We've just been

35:42

discussing with some of the devolved leaders.

35:45

And so there is always

35:47

an ambiguity in opposition about

35:50

this and certainly in government where you

35:52

want to proclaim your willingness to give

35:54

away power to trust the people to

35:56

trust local communities, but

35:58

then also make pledges.

35:59

centrally

36:01

in the culture of British politics,

36:03

which is a pretty unhealthy culture.

36:05

You know, that every

36:07

penny will be spent wisely. And

36:10

if you pledge that, you can't devolve much power,

36:12

because you're in the Treasury

36:14

going to keep a watch on every

36:17

hate me. It's part of the mad tax

36:19

and spend debate and where power

36:22

lies and how can people be trusted,

36:25

and so on. So, Stuart, they're

36:28

half there with the brown proposition,

36:30

some of which I think will be implemented, but

36:32

not wholly. And thank you very much

36:35

and do spread the word throughout the whole of the United

36:37

States. Thank you very much. I'll

36:40

tell you we kind of range widely.

36:43

We're now over to Alex Bell, who lives in

36:45

Switzerland, leading a

36:47

kind of life which I think will be fantastically

36:51

high quality. Alex has

36:53

a theory that the red wall doesn't really exist.

36:56

And this is quite interesting. He says the

36:59

last election was boiled down to a single

37:01

issue, get Brexit done. Half

37:03

the country had voted for Brexit. No single

37:06

party of the big two had come

37:08

out against it in the referendum.

37:11

So for those reasons, if you were a Brexiteer,

37:13

you were going to vote Tory if you weren't a dyed

37:15

in the wool labor supporter. Unsurprisingly,

37:18

the Tories won a landslide. Onto

37:20

the future election, Brexit has happened as

37:22

far as it's going to. So there's nothing to vote

37:24

for there. Corbyn and Johnson have both

37:26

gone and everyone is harshly bored of the Tories.

37:29

So Labour will win probably easily.

37:31

It's not like the red wall is going to come crashing

37:34

down. It doesn't exist. It was a

37:36

moment in time. Stalmer

37:39

may be only marginally more popular than Sunak. It

37:41

doesn't really matter. Yeah,

37:44

I've always had my doubts about this caricature

37:47

of the red wall, but it is. It

37:49

is interesting. I was speaking to someone who used to

37:51

be an MP in one of the constituencies

37:53

of the Red Wall. And

37:57

he was there. He joined the Labour

37:59

Party. He was a and you join the Labour

38:01

Party in 1973 or 1974 when the miners

38:03

strikes were going on and so on.

38:10

And he told me that the Yorkshire NUN then,

38:13

for their annual

38:15

gala, wanted

38:17

as one of the speakers Enoch Powell because

38:20

they were anti the common market

38:23

and Powell was supporting the miners then

38:26

over free market principles. And that they

38:28

had become more valuable because

38:31

of their worth

38:33

compared with oil prices that are quadrupled.

38:37

And so, you know, the kind of

38:39

issues that were around in the Brexit referendum

38:42

were around in the early 70s and they

38:44

then, some revered Enoch

38:46

Powell. So I agree with you.

38:48

It's been exaggerated

38:50

this rebel. They're human beings with their own

38:52

issues and if you engage you can soon

38:55

find that although maybe

38:58

on the surface they'll say in a focus group the

39:01

boats is the number one issue. When

39:03

you actually ask them are you worried about seeing a

39:05

GP? They say, oh yeah. And

39:07

what about a hospital? Oh yeah. And

39:10

it's easy to get to places. No, the buses

39:12

never run and you know, only

39:15

two a day. And suddenly you're

39:17

in a world which we've all talked

39:19

about in the cooperative.

39:21

So, and I think you're

39:23

right Alex, 2019 was a very huge election.

39:26

A lot of different

39:27

worlds.

39:41

Now look, we've been going on for a long time. I know

39:43

there's going to be one more because it's relevant

39:46

to what I was saying

39:48

last week from Rick Muir who's director

39:50

of the police foundation. He was

39:53

responding to, see, I kind of

39:55

dared for a second to take part

39:58

of Sowel Abravman's office. argument seriously

40:01

about who is accountable

40:04

for what in terms of policing. And

40:06

if that march had gone wrong, I've got absolutely

40:08

no doubt that as the elected

40:10

Home Secretary, she would have been partly

40:13

held accountable. So

40:16

although she was doing

40:18

it for shallow reasons, there was

40:21

an argument there. But Rick

40:23

Nure says this, police accountability

40:26

takes two forms. One

40:28

set the budget, the legal framework and

40:30

the broad priorities for policing. But

40:33

then the police make operational decisions

40:35

without political interference. Politicians

40:38

can retrospectively hold the police to

40:40

account for their operational decisions afterwards.

40:44

So if a protest is badly policed, they can

40:47

question that and make changes in guidance

40:49

or law if necessary. What

40:51

Brabhamon was seeking to do was to tell the

40:53

Commission of the Met to ban a

40:55

protest, which is his decision in

40:57

law, not hers. More than that, she

40:59

was asking him to act unlawfully because

41:02

it was clear the high threshold

41:04

for a protest to be banned was not met.

41:07

I'm still loving the podcast. Oh, thank you, Rick.

41:10

Yeah, no, I absolutely take your point.

41:12

And in the current context,

41:15

she was going not just too far, but way

41:17

beyond too far than what she

41:19

was trying to do. But I do

41:21

think these issues of accountability are very

41:23

complicated because perhaps wrongly,

41:27

but maybe it would be the media culture say

41:30

that she hadn't done any of the things she did, but

41:32

she was she was just posturing or

41:35

largely posturing. And

41:37

it's all gone wrong last Saturday

41:41

or more wrong than some of it did with

41:43

the thugs and so

41:45

on. I

41:48

wonder who would the today program

41:50

would get at 10 past eight, maybe the

41:52

commissioner, but quite possibly they

41:54

would bid for Brabhamon as home

41:56

secretary. But

41:59

I could. take your point that within the current

42:02

framework she

42:04

was going way beyond her remit.

42:06

Oh God we have so many things

42:09

to go you know Hugh Carr asking

42:11

about John Major as a tail end, Charlie,

42:13

who kind of transcended the problems of being

42:16

a leader after a long-serving

42:18

Prime Minister. Alison

42:21

Keyes wondering about how furious

42:23

Johnson and Nadine Doris must be

42:26

with Cameron effortlessly becoming

42:28

a Lord, yet just imagine

42:30

Nadine Doris who ached to

42:32

get that period and their camera just strolls

42:35

in. Caroline Morgan wondering

42:37

though whether Nadine does have a point about

42:40

their being a sort of cabal

42:43

at Westminster. Does

42:46

Dominic Cummings still have any influence

42:48

at all and are the powerful

42:50

people behind him? I don't

42:52

think at the moment I think he's screaming from

42:54

the sidelines these days. Anthony

42:57

Howes another student at University

43:00

of Liverpool holding a conference about David

43:02

Owen who's coming up. I'd love

43:04

to reflect more Anthony on David Owen another

43:06

time. John Lamont great question

43:10

about the King's speech and

43:12

its emptiness and

43:14

why and

43:17

yeah Mark Holling wondering

43:20

whether the Cameron

43:23

move is to woo the blue

43:26

wall. I think it is partly Mark I don't

43:28

know whether it will succeed. Mark by the way offers,

43:30

I met him

43:32

several times in North

43:35

Berwick during the Edinburgh Festival, he's a

43:37

passionate cyclist. Perhaps

43:39

I should be the cycle route rep on

43:41

the cooperative always happy

43:43

to suggest good bike rides and

43:45

routes for a more sustainable transport

43:48

future. There's an offer because

43:52

yeah he recommended some great bike rides when

43:54

we were at the Edinburgh Festival

43:56

and so nice to hear from you Mark you're on.

43:59

That is your role in the cooperative. I

44:01

could go on many many more questions.

44:03

Keep them coming. We'll be getting together again

44:06

early next week. Thanks so much for tuning

44:08

in for a second time but I think you'll

44:10

agree we've got so much to make sense

44:12

of and more to make sense of in the days

44:15

to come. We've got that autumn statement as we're

44:17

about to do to next week but

44:19

at least it'll be time for us to have a wider engagement

44:22

with the questions as well. Thanks so

44:24

much. Take a deep breath. There's a lot going

44:26

on and let's gather together

44:29

very soon to make sense of

44:31

it all. Thank you. Bye.

44:41

We're

44:44

diving into more quirky and bizarre events

44:47

from history including the Race with

44:49

the Atomic Bomb, Who Gets Nuclear

44:51

Weapons First, The Nazis or America.

44:54

Listen to our podcast to find out. We

44:56

talk

44:56

about the Glamour Boys, the gay parliamentarians

44:59

who warned Westminster all about Hitler.

45:01

Can I stop John from singing songs from

45:03

Cabaret? Find out. So

45:05

join us history nerds John O'Farrell

45:08

and Angela Barnes for the new series

45:10

of We Are History from Podmasters.

45:13

Out now.

45:17

Origin Story is back with Season 4 exploring

45:19

more of history's most important concepts

45:22

events and people to discuss how they

45:24

influence political discourse today. And we're going

45:26

to start with one of the most contentious and frankly irritating

45:28

characters in the political circuit and that is Jordan

45:30

Peterson. My name is Ian Dunt.

45:33

I'm Dory Olinsky and we have gone through the supreme

45:36

emotional pain of reading what the man has to say.

45:38

So come join us on the 23rd of October

45:40

when we delve into it. That's Origin Story Season

45:43

4, available now wherever you get your podcasts.