0:45

I am so excited for this

0:47

episode because I

0:49

am about to get an education

0:51

. I hope

0:53

you , the listener , also

0:56

learned something new . Or maybe you know this

0:58

stuff already , I don't know , but I

1:00

had no idea how deep

1:02

this particular rabbit

1:04

hole was , not a clue

1:06

. I had the honor of

1:09

being on a panel of speakers

1:11

recently , and Aubrey Lancaster

1:13

was one of them , and

1:16

when she was speaking my

1:19

jaw dropped Like

1:21

I was sitting at my computer just

1:23

like oh , please , keep talking , please keep

1:26

talking . She shone a light on

1:28

a lot of topics , but specifically the topic

1:31

of asexuality that I

1:33

did not know a lot about , and

1:36

the cool thing was she

1:38

helped me to make sense of how I

1:40

had been feeling in certain sexual situations

1:43

. So my mind was blown

1:45

and all I could think of we've got

1:47

to get her on the show . So I am so

1:49

over the moon that

1:52

she's with me today to unpack all this

1:54

stuff and blow your mind too . So

1:56

thank you so much , aubrey , for joining

1:59

me today .

2:01

My pleasure . I'm excited too

2:03

.

2:05

Oh , this is going to be juicy , I can just tell . So

2:08

let's just jump right in . Tell us what you do

2:10

and who you help .

2:13

So I am an ASEC certified

2:16

sexuality educator with a focus

2:18

in asexuality and aromanticism

2:20

. I actually started

2:22

out in adult product sales

2:25

20 years ago sales

2:35

20 years ago and it wasn't until I was 39 that I finally came

2:37

to understand my sexuality and how it had been such a huge

2:40

part of my journey and discovery the entire time and realized

2:42

that so much time in the

2:44

sexuality profession and not understanding

2:47

that meant this information

2:49

was important and needed to be brought to these spaces

2:51

. So I did my

2:53

studying . I actually studied

2:55

for a semester under Goddard Graduate

2:58

Institute to learn more

3:00

about the academia and

3:02

the cultural context and

3:04

you know a lot of what's going on around

3:06

this issue and then

3:08

moved over into my asex certification and

3:11

have been doing a six hour

3:13

training on asexuality

3:15

and aromanticism for the last two years

3:18

to specifically bring this information

3:21

to sexuality professionals .

3:23

Right , and do you work with women

3:26

or men specifically

3:28

, or is it just kind of anyone who Awesome

3:32

, okay , cool . I think my audience is

3:34

mostly women , but

3:37

guys need to hear all this good

3:39

stuff too .

3:40

Anyone can be asexual .

3:42

And right yeah , and

3:44

cause and I love hearing that

3:46

too because I grew

3:49

up thinking , you know , men

3:51

are horn dogs and all

3:53

men would just think about sex , sex , sex , sex , sex

3:55

. There was some kind of stat where a

3:57

man thinks about sex every six seconds

3:59

or something like that throughout the day . And

4:02

so I grew up with this conditioning that

4:04

men wanted

4:06

sex , like all men

4:08

just point blank wanted sex

4:11

, sex , sex , sex , sex and that's all they thought about

4:13

. And that made me feel really weird

4:15

and a little bit like on guard because

4:17

I didn't think about sex . So

4:21

it's kind of it's nice to know that that

4:23

, that that was a

4:25

total generalization .

4:27

Well , and part of that is also the fact that

4:30

our society will hypersexualize

4:33

some people and desexualize others

4:35

. And within that gendered

4:37

context , our society

4:39

kind of hypersexualizes

4:43

male sexual desire and

4:46

hyper-romanticizes

4:48

women as far

4:50

as romance goes . So when we

4:52

have these expectations , if

4:54

we don't fit within that narrative , we

4:56

think there must be something wrong with us . So

4:59

men who aren't heavily

5:02

focused on sex or may even be

5:04

asexual , are told

5:06

that they are somehow lacking , as

5:08

are women who may

5:11

not desire romance or may be aromantic

5:13

are told they are lacking

5:15

. And then we get into all the diversity

5:18

of gender that exists and how that

5:20

adds new layers of hypersexualization

5:23

and desexualization . So

5:25

really we need to make space for some

5:28

people to think about sex

5:30

a lot and other people

5:32

to not really think about sex

5:34

very much or not be interested in interpersonal

5:37

sexual activity , and

5:39

step away from some of these assumptions

5:41

and especially gender stereotyping

5:44

. Yes , yes .

5:46

Yes , yes , and I'm glad

5:48

that you're one of these people

5:50

who are bringing this to light , because

5:53

otherwise , you know , men end

5:55

up feeling emasculated

5:59

, women end up feeling like they were

6:01

prude or something , and

6:03

so this is an important

6:05

conversation . That's why I wanted to have you

6:07

on so badly . I'm like , oh my gosh , no

6:09

one I know is talking about this . This

6:12

needs to be talked about a lot more . That's

6:15

why I'm in this job . Yeah

6:25

, so good . I would love for you to share

6:27

the story about you growing up and discovering your own sexuality . I heard a little

6:29

bit of it and I found , found . I'm like , oh my God , I wasn't the only one

6:31

in parts of your story , it

6:34

was very it was . It

6:36

gave me permission to be okay with my

6:38

coming to sexuality story

6:41

too , so I would love for you to share that , if

6:43

you're , if you're open to that .

6:45

Sure . So I was raised in

6:47

a secular Jewish home so I

6:49

didn't have religious shaming as

6:51

a child . I understand that could be a

6:53

huge part of some people's journey , but for me

6:55

it wasn't . Who were women

6:58

who becoming women , who were really excited

7:00

about sex and we're constantly talking

7:11

about it and really getting obsessed

7:13

with it . That was the

7:15

norm in my world . So I didn't have

7:17

this kind of dual idea that

7:19

you know girls weren't interested in

7:21

it . I assumed I just wasn't . That

7:24

there was . You know that it was kind

7:26

of okay , that's them this is me which is true

7:28

. That

7:31

it was kind of okay , that's them this is me which is true . But I was getting romantic

7:33

crushes . I got a number of romantic crushes throughout my teenage years

7:35

and I never felt

7:37

like it was a problem to not

7:40

become sexual , you know

7:42

. It was just kind of like , okay , why

7:44

is this hard ?

7:46

Right .

7:46

And I did have

7:48

my sexual debut as a teenager , but

7:52

it was

7:54

more of a receiving type

7:56

of experience , so

7:58

I didn't really understand

8:01

why I wasn't as motivated to return

8:03

the favor . And

8:06

it wasn't until I

8:08

was married that

8:11

I was in the position

8:13

of being expected to want

8:16

to engage sexually on a regular basis

8:18

, and I didn't understand why I didn't

8:20

. And I didn't understand

8:23

why I preferred to engage alone

8:25

, alone . And so

8:28

I ended up joining an adult

8:30

product company selling in-home

8:33

adult toys and such and

8:42

learning how to enhance pleasure and how to access physical pleasure . And I had so many aha

8:44

moments from that just understanding that clitoral stimulation

8:46

is necessary

8:48

for a huge

8:51

part of the population that has a clitoris

8:53

in order to even orgasm . Not

8:55

understanding that it's

8:58

okay to not need penetrative sex

9:01

or to not orgasm . Just from

9:03

that and all

9:05

of the different ways that I learned how to access pleasure . And

9:07

yet I never found

9:10

anyone quote sexually

9:12

appealing , like I never understood the

9:14

um , the boy

9:17

band like

9:19

I'm gonna date myself . New kids on

9:21

the block did not do it for me . My

9:26

crush was um Wesley

9:29

Crusher from Star Trek Next

9:31

Generation and

9:35

I had no sexual fantasies

9:37

about him . I just wanted him to fall in love

9:39

with me , and

9:43

so that's how kind of a lot of my

9:46

mindset was

9:48

. It was about , you know , falling in love

9:50

. It was the love story , it was that

9:52

romantic story , and yet

9:54

I still didn't feel that very often

9:57

. So , um

9:59

, I don't know what you , what your experience was

10:01

with some of those things growing up .

10:04

Well , I , um , I

10:07

started engaging in sex

10:09

when I was about 15 , I

10:11

was almost 16 . And

10:13

, um , it wasn't a good first experience

10:16

. Um , I mean , I was , I was boy

10:18

crazy . I'd always been boy crazy . Lots

10:20

of crushes growing up . But

10:22

my first guy , like I , I

10:24

, I realized after

10:27

years and years , decades . I realized

10:29

that I wanted to be close

10:32

with boys . I liked

10:34

kissing them , I liked the foreplay

10:36

, I liked you know , I don't even like calling

10:38

it foreplay because it makes it sound like it's it's

10:41

. You know , it's not the main event , it's just the

10:43

lead up to the main event . And I hate that

10:45

because the main event , the whole intercourse

10:48

. And I hate that because the main event , the whole intercourse . It never appealed

10:50

to me as much as

10:52

kissing , as making out , as all the

10:54

touching and the rolling around and all that . In

11:12

fact , I remember hormones raging in my teens and having fantasy dreams about . You know , I remember

11:14

this one particular boy I had a crush on and , like huge crush , I would have sold my left arm to date

11:17

. This guy kind of thing Like I , just , you

11:19

know , totally boy crazy . And my

11:21

dream , my sex sexual

11:23

fantasy dream , was

11:25

just the most

11:27

passionate , was just the

11:30

most passionate , deep kissing . That's all

11:32

we did was kissed and

11:34

I remember the feeling

11:37

even to this day and

11:39

I have a memory like a sieve . But I remember this dream as

11:42

feeling like I was just

11:44

. Every cell of my body

11:46

was saturated with

11:48

desire and passion

11:51

and being totally like

11:54

, not in lust but in love

11:56

I guess it would be love

11:58

, but major desire with

12:01

this person and all we were doing was kissing

12:03

. It

12:05

was such a turn on to just be

12:07

making out . It

12:15

was such a turn on to just be making out . And

12:17

I realized that I had a lot of sex in my teens but it was

12:19

kind of empty , like I was using sex as a way to feel

12:21

loved , as a way to get

12:23

the attention , as a way to get

12:25

the affection , and I thought

12:27

the only way to do that is

12:29

to have sex , is to let them

12:31

penetrate , because otherwise that's , there's

12:34

no way a guy's ever gonna

12:36

. You know you'd be called a tease

12:39

if you were to stop at foreplay

12:41

and not let him , you know . Oh , she gave

12:43

me blue balls , you know , like it's a bad thing

12:45

that whole thing . So I felt

12:47

pressured to have sex , but I wanted

12:49

to have sex because I thought that was

12:51

the means to the end that

12:54

I wanted , which was acceptance , love

12:56

, affection , all

12:58

that and I've always felt

13:00

that towards men . Is that

13:03

that crush , that that

13:06

romanticism ? I guess I

13:08

would actually love for you to maybe

13:11

define for our listeners

13:13

the difference between you

13:16

. Know , you talk about asexual

13:19

and aromanticism

13:21

. Let's talk about that just a little

13:23

bit .

13:24

Ah , so for some people

13:26

and not for everyone , for some people sexual

13:29

attraction and romantic attraction are different

13:31

. For some they're completely intrinsically intertwined

13:33

, but for some they're not , and

13:36

for some people one may exist without

13:38

the other . So in this context

13:40

we kind of talk about sexual attraction as

13:43

finding another person

13:45

sexually appealing or hot

13:47

or sexy person sexually appealing or hot or sexy , and it can be

13:49

its own kind of spectrum . Anything

13:51

from you

13:57

know . Oh yeah , I could imagine having sex with that person in the right circumstances

13:59

, maybe to complete full body arousal .

14:02

I need to pull my clothes off right now and have sex

14:04

with that person , like that kind

14:06

of a range , and

14:08

does that also include , like

14:11

I can think of someone and

14:14

think , oh

14:17

, hot , yum , Do

14:20

I actually want to have sex with them ? No

14:22

, I'd like to like lay with them in bed

14:24

and you know , the foreplay

14:27

and all that . Is that still in the

14:29

same category that you're talking about

14:31

?

14:32

Well , a lot of this is about how

14:34

we relate to these terms ourselves , so

14:37

I can't give you a clear delineation

14:40

as to this . Is sexual attraction ? This

14:42

is not . It really has to

14:44

do with how you relate to the terms . So

14:47

there's a lot of asexual people that don't really relate

14:49

to the terms sexy . So there's a lot of asexual people that don't really relate to the terms sexy

14:51

or hot . When regarding

14:53

another person , there's also

14:56

more differentiation in

14:58

terms of attraction . So I mentioned

15:00

sexual attraction . There's also romantic

15:02

attraction . So romantic attraction would

15:05

be finding another person romantically appealing

15:07

. It could be anything

15:09

from intense limerence

15:13

where it's that thunderbolt fireworks

15:16

, see them across the room , eyes locked

15:18

. I am going to marry that person

15:20

all the way to a light

15:22

crush like ooh , I would like

15:24

to get to know them better and maybe have a relationship

15:27

with them . But there

15:30

is that concept of limerence , which

15:33

is a term coined by Dr

15:35

Dorothy Tenov in her 1979

15:37

book Love and Limerence , where she actually

15:39

based it on six years of research

15:41

, interviewing thousands of people to

15:43

describe the experience

15:45

of romantic attraction . Romantic

15:48

love , everything from the characteristics

15:51

, including that euphoria , intense

15:53

norepinephrine and dopamine

15:55

and serotonin dumps when you think

15:57

that they like you back , to

15:59

intense heartache when you think they might

16:01

not , coupled with intrusive thoughts

16:04

where you can't get the person out of your head . All

16:06

roads lead back to thinking about that person

16:08

. Their good qualities are magnified

16:11

and their bad qualities are minimized

16:13

. Excused and ignored . Oh

16:16

, I hate that .

16:18

I hate that . It's like a witch

16:20

no Bane switch

16:22

. We do it to ourselves .

16:24

Oh , yeah , yeah , it's part of

16:26

that process in our brain . Now

16:29

. Romantic attraction thrives

16:31

on hope and uncertainty

16:33

. Hope for reciprocation

16:35

and uncertainty as

16:37

to whether or not the reciprocation exists

16:39

or whether or not that

16:42

relationship can be solidified

16:44

and continued , and

16:46

it is in the

16:48

kind of the manifestation

16:50

. So sex can be a symbol of reciprocation

16:53

, but it's not the goal of limerence

16:55

. The goal of limerence is the reciprocation

16:58

of feelings at a similar level of intensity

17:00

, right ? So sexual

17:03

attraction can exist without that

17:05

, without that romantic need

17:07

, as can romantic attraction

17:09

exist without a sexual component

17:12

, right ? So it is just that

17:14

reciprocation of love . But there's other

17:16

kinds of attraction . There's also sensual

17:18

attraction that's

17:20

more relating to kind of skin hunger , a

17:23

desire for touch , cuddling

17:25

. All of that quote

17:27

foreplay .

17:29

Right .

17:34

That can exist in a context where it's not a precursor to sex , where it is the

17:36

pinnacle of the evening . That is

17:38

the goal , where it is

17:40

that one-on-one

17:42

physical touch , so

17:45

cuddles , kisses , things

17:48

that don't have to be sexually arousing

17:51

, and I think that's one of the things that I

17:53

find as a way to kind of distinguish to

17:55

some degree . Sexual attraction

17:57

may include this

17:59

feeling towards either

18:01

an actual feeling of sexual arousal

18:04

or desire to become sexually aroused

18:06

with this person , whereas

18:08

sensual attraction doesn't

18:11

need to have a sexual component .

18:13

Right , I

18:16

think I fall into that component

18:19

really when I think about it , and

18:22

it's funny because you know , I teach erotic massage

18:24

and I talk about sex all the time , and I mean

18:26

sex and like the big umbrella of

18:28

every , all the things that's

18:30

why I say sexually arousing activities , right

18:33

. And so people assume

18:36

that I'm just this girl

18:38

who's horny all the time and

18:40

just , you know , needs penetration

18:42

all the time and just I'm sex crazy

18:45

. And I'm actually not

18:47

. I'm not at all , although

18:49

I will say , um , I

18:52

talk to my ladies about this all the time in

18:55

my membership . We do these coaching calls

18:57

and often I'll end up saying

18:59

the words , being in

19:01

the mood that that

19:03

, that libido , that desire as

19:06

a prerequisite to engage

19:08

in any kind of sexual play

19:10

is actually a myth . A

19:12

myth Like being

19:14

playful , being intimate

19:16

, doing all the touching and all

19:19

that thing , all

19:27

that stuff gets you in the mood

19:29

. So you might not start in the mood , but you can get in the mood

19:31

. There's

19:34

like a momentum that takes over and I find that a lot of people don't engage because they're like

19:36

, oh , I'm just not in the mood . But if he were to start something , they would get in

19:38

the mood . So I encourage

19:40

people to not wait

19:43

to be affectionate to their partner , even

19:46

if it doesn't lead to

19:48

a desire for penetration . It's

19:51

more taking the time and

19:53

making the effort for

19:55

connection with it , like

19:57

if they're married , they're with a partner or whatever

19:59

, and they want to feel close and they want that

20:01

person to feel loved and they want

20:03

to feel loved in return . It's just

20:05

I love taking libido

20:08

out of it . You

20:10

know , like you make a nice dinner for your partner

20:12

and you know that they're going

20:14

to love that dinner . It's got nothing to do with libido

20:17

, you're just doing a loving , kind act

20:19

. It doesn't always have to be sexual

20:21

in nature , and so I

20:24

like to encourage women

20:26

to engage in some type

20:28

of affection , whether

20:30

it leads to intercourse or not , in

20:33

order to just keep that connection

20:35

.

20:35

Yeah . So this is where we

20:37

start talking about how

20:40

terms like intimacy , pleasure

20:43

and love get

20:47

kind of conflated

20:49

with a whole bunch of other things that could be going on

20:51

. Intimacy is closeness

20:53

and connection . Sexual intimacy

20:56

is a kind of intimacy , but it is not

20:58

the only kind of intimacy that exists . There's

21:01

many , many different ways that we can build

21:03

closeness and connection . So if

21:05

what the people are looking for within the

21:07

relationship is more closeness and connection

21:09

, some people may just default

21:12

to sexual intimacy and assume

21:14

that's going to do it and it may not

21:16

. So starting to

21:18

think about all the different ways that we can bring

21:21

intimacy into a relationship if that's

21:23

what the couple feels that they need more

21:25

of can help to take some of that

21:27

pressure off of sexual intimacy as being

21:30

the only option . Same thing with pleasure

21:32

. How many different kinds of pleasure

21:34

can we access that don't

21:36

inherently need sexual

21:38

activity to be pleasurable , right

21:41

?

21:42

Right , yeah , that

21:45

reminds me of a few

21:48

weeks ago . I had a date and

21:50

the gentleman I was talking with he

21:53

was just he , he was talking about his

21:55

ex and they had sex every

21:57

night . Like they , they just it

22:00

was just a you know , a given . And

22:02

he said , well , you know , just like touching

22:05

and stuff , that just naturally led

22:07

to sex every night . I'm like , but

22:09

was it natural ? Because

22:12

he , he liked to give her massage

22:15

and it always led

22:17

to sex . And I'm

22:19

like , well , maybe she just wanted to massage

22:21

, because after a while

22:23

she's like no , no , no , I don't want to massage anymore . She

22:25

just cut him off at massage . I'm like , well , maybe

22:28

because it was conditional , like

22:30

, maybe that was like . And

22:33

he said , well , that's just a natural lead

22:35

in and we had sex every night because I

22:37

gave her a massage every night . I'm like , ooh , but

22:40

you're tying those two things together and that's

22:42

an assumption that if you give me a massage

22:44

then it's just automatically assumed that we're

22:46

going to have sex . That rubbed

22:48

me the wrong way , yeah .

22:51

That's why I talk about the difference between a favor

22:54

and a chore . A favor

22:56

is freely given . It may

22:58

or may not involve mutual pleasure

23:00

, and if a favor is asked for and

23:02

denied , then it's okay , no worries , move

23:05

on . A chore

23:07

is expected

23:09

, it's conditional . There are

23:11

consequences if a chore is not completed

23:14

. If you say no to a chore

23:16

, that means you are just delaying

23:18

the inevitable . So

23:21

in order to make space for this

23:23

. There has to be that understanding that

23:26

a no today does not mean a yes

23:28

tomorrow , that each no does not bring

23:30

us closer to a yes , that

23:33

we can say no forever

23:35

and that can still be

23:37

okay .

23:39

Yeah , and I want to flip

23:41

it too like a yes today doesn't

23:43

mean a yes tomorrow . I

23:46

could be all in today , but tomorrow

23:48

maybe not , and that's got

23:50

to be okay .

23:52

Like Emily Nagoski says , it's all contextual

23:55

like

24:01

Emily Nagoski says , it's all contextual .

24:02

Yeah , exactly , Exactly . Oh , I love this . Oh so good . In one of the podcasts that I heard you in

24:04

, you were talking about responsive

24:06

desire . Could

24:08

we talk about that ? Could you define that for

24:10

the listeners ?

24:12

Yeah . So that's another concept that I

24:14

learned , mostly from Emily Nagoski

24:16

and then reading some of the science behind it

24:19

. There's spontaneous desire and then there's responsive

24:21

desire and , in a nutshell , spontaneous

24:25

desire is desire that

24:27

manifests in anticipation

24:29

of pleasure , whereas

24:33

responsive desire is desire

24:35

that manifests in response to pleasure . So

24:40

that spontaneous desire can

24:42

be interpersonal , which is how we usually

24:45

think of it , like look at this other person , oh

24:47

my God , they're hot , I want to have sex with them

24:49

. I now have desire . But

24:52

, asexually speaking , spontaneous

24:55

desire doesn't have to be interpersonal . It can

24:57

be thinking about ooh , the

25:00

thought of sexual

25:02

activity sounds really good

25:04

. Thinking , you know , asking my

25:07

body . How does that sound to you ? My body

25:09

goes yes , that sounds great . Spontaneous

25:12

desire , anticipation

25:14

, spontaneous

25:19

desire , anticipation . Whereas that responsive desire , there may not be wanting in the moment

25:21

, but there is the understanding that once

25:23

that stimulation begins , desire

25:26

will follow .

25:29

Got it .

25:31

So that sounds along

25:33

the same lines as the don't wait

25:35

to get in the mood Exactly , start doing some things and

25:37

see if you to get in the mood Exactly , start doing some things and see if you

25:39

do get in the mood , kind of thing I

25:41

like that Responsive desire is especially more

25:43

common once you get past the initial

25:46

limerent lust

25:48

phase of the relationship , where

25:51

there's a lot of different reasons

25:53

that you may anticipate

25:55

sexual pleasure , Whereas

25:58

once you've been in that relationship for

26:00

a while you may lose

26:02

a lot of that context and anticipation

26:05

. But the body can

26:07

still respond , you can still want

26:09

that intimacy , closeness and connection

26:12

. And once

26:14

you start to build the actual physical

26:16

arousal , desire then follows

26:18

right love

26:21

it .

26:21

You say it way better than I do and

26:24

sound way smarter than

26:26

I do when I talk about it . That

26:29

is such a great way to put that . Thank

26:31

you for elaborating on that . That's's so good .

26:35

What's that ? I'm all about soundbites

26:38

. I like to have it in little bite size

26:40

. Yes .

26:42

Oh , I love it . So , with

26:44

limerence , when you're not attracted

26:46

to a person

26:48

sexually , is that

26:51

like ? Is that like an absolute like ? Does

26:53

that if you're typically like , oh , I just , I'm never attracted to people , is that an absolute

26:55

like ? Does that if you're typically like , oh , I just I'm never attracted to people , is

26:57

that an absolute ? Does that mean that they can't ever

26:59

be attracted sexually to someone

27:02

? Or is it just because it

27:04

? And and maybe I'm not talking

27:06

about limerence , I don't know , but maybe I'm

27:08

talking about just asexuality , where

27:10

, um a person will say , yeah , i'mexual

27:14

, but is that a black and white thing

27:16

, or are there a lot of gray

27:19

areas ?

27:20

We have what is called the

27:22

gray umbrella . Oh

27:25

, okay , we actually have a term , gray

27:27

sexual , for people that are in that

27:29

gray space and there's a whole

27:31

bunch of different terms that

27:33

the asexual community has created

27:35

to help communicate more

27:37

positions within that spectrum . So asexual

27:40

is an umbrella term , gray sexual

27:42

is an umbrella term , same with asexual and

27:44

aromantic . There's also gray areas there

27:46

. A couple of things to unpack on what you said

27:48

. So limerence usually

27:51

involves a sexual component

27:53

because it is just

27:56

as common within allosexual

27:58

spaces , allosexual being people that

28:02

are not asexual , basically . But

28:07

limerence can be experienced

28:09

without a sexual component , which is why

28:11

there are some asexual people that still

28:13

experience limerence . There's

28:16

also people that only experience

28:19

sexual attraction during

28:21

limerence , so

28:23

that may be the only time they

28:25

experience it manifest . And

28:28

there's people that only experience sexual attraction

28:31

under other circumstances , such

28:33

as once they have gotten to know someone , formed

28:35

an emotional bond , so that's demisexual

28:37

. And then the gray

28:40

area . It's also kind of a

28:42

fluidic term because it

28:44

for some people means they

28:46

consider themselves somewhere between asexual

28:49

and allosexual , whatever between means . For

28:52

some it means they experience

28:54

it at a lesser degree , it

28:56

may not be as strong . Others

29:00

, they may only experience

29:02

it under certain circumstances and

29:04

some just it's very , very rare

29:06

that they experience it . So

29:09

, making space for

29:12

this gray area . The main thing

29:14

is that these are terms

29:16

that are a rejection

29:19

of compulsory sexuality and

29:21

a motto , normativity and

29:24

singleism and

29:26

all of these social constructs that tell

29:28

us that we must experience sexual attraction

29:30

. If not , we're lying or there's

29:32

something wrong with us . We need to go get our hormones

29:35

checked All of these things we

29:38

declare . This is

29:40

okay . I don't need an explanation

29:42

. I don't owe you an explanation . It's

29:44

okay if I don't want sex . It's okay if I

29:46

don't want a romantic relationship . There

29:49

are other pleasures in life and other ways

29:51

to build intimacy .

29:53

Thank you for that . That was really great . What

29:58

would you say ? A lot of my clients in in my membership

30:00

. They , uh , they're married . They

30:03

come to see me because they've

30:05

been married a long time . Maybe they need to spice

30:07

things up . They don't want a divorce , they

30:10

love their guy , but

30:12

they don't want sex . You know

30:14

, like they're , they're just sort of like like it's

30:16

become a chore Once

30:18

they get going . It's usually okay , but often

30:21

the only kind of sex that they've experienced

30:24

is just missionary and you

30:27

know , not a lot of , not a lot of

30:29

exploration and it's just , it's boring , and but they don't

30:31

want to get a divorce , they don't want to leave that guy . They love them and they're

30:33

very affectionate toward's boring , but they don't want to get

30:35

a divorce , they don't want to leave that guy . They love

30:37

them and they're very affectionate

30:39

toward their guy . Like , they

30:42

want that closeness , that connection

30:46

, but not

30:49

sex all the time .

30:51

Yeah , and that's really difficult

30:54

because the way that our society sets

30:56

up marriage is

30:58

that it is assumed that

31:00

sex is going to be a component of that . In some

31:02

cases it's even a required component

31:05

, you know . I mean certainly , stuff around

31:07

the legality of whether or not the marriage is consummated

31:10

, you know , may

31:13

even determine the legitimacy

31:15

of the marriage in the government's eyes

31:17

, and some

31:19

states have contextual reasons

31:21

why you can get

31:23

divorced , and a

31:25

lot of it still ties back into sex . So

31:28

being able to say

31:30

you don't owe your

31:33

partner sex is

31:35

a radical statement in and of itself

31:37

.

31:39

Yeah , that's true .

31:41

That's true , being able

31:44

to embody that and live that and

31:46

find how

31:48

to live in a relationship

31:50

with somebody and move forward

31:52

from that with the idea

31:54

of maybe even never having sex again

31:57

and seeing what does that even

31:59

look like ? And that

32:01

could be really scary . And

32:04

that's where we start to break it down

32:06

again . What

32:08

is it that they are needing out

32:11

of that ? Because if he just needs

32:13

to get his rocks off , there's products

32:15

on the market for that .

32:17

Right , there's a lot of toys

32:20

, although you know what ? I was sitting

32:22

in the hot tub a few nights ago with

32:24

a woman and we were

32:26

having this conversation because she

32:28

found out that I had this rock the bedroom business

32:31

. And she's like oh , and I

32:33

mentioned something about ED . And she goes well , my

32:36

guy doesn't have ED . He can get an

32:38

erection , but he just can't maintain

32:40

it . I'm like , well , that's that

32:42

falls under the umbrella of ED . She

32:45

didn't know that he had

32:47

issues in the bedroom before they got

32:50

married , because they're both very

32:52

religious . And she does like

32:54

penetration . That is really that's , that's how she gets stimulated

32:56

. It does like penetration . That is really that's . That's how she gets stimulated . It's

32:58

through penetration , but because

33:01

of their religion , they can't do toys

33:03

. Like she's open

33:05

, she's more open . But he is like

33:07

no , we're going to hell if we use toys

33:10

, because that's a sin and that's

33:12

not pure and God doesn't

33:14

want us to have that kind of sex

33:16

. It's either penetration or nothing , you

33:18

know . And I'm like , oh , my God , that

33:20

damn religion . It's

33:23

okay for people to be religious , that's fine

33:25

, but I just find it's really limiting when

33:28

there are products on the market to

33:31

help stimulate and like if

33:33

you don't know how to stimulate

33:36

a woman's clitoris . Okay , well

33:38

, there's a . There's a toy out there that'll do

33:40

it .

33:40

You just got to hold it , you know Well

33:44

and some of it has to do with

33:46

understanding that

33:48

these are tools . They

33:52

are to facilitate

33:55

pleasure and connection

33:57

. We use eyeglasses

34:00

to facilitate sight . We

34:10

have lots of different accessibility aids

34:12

in our culture to help us navigate when there are things that

34:15

our bodies aren't doing

34:17

the way we want them to do . Our

34:19

bodies aren't doing the way we want them to do . So figuring out how to make space for accessibility

34:21

tools in the bedroom can be intimidating , but

34:23

it doesn't have to be against

34:26

one's religion and there's a lot of resources

34:29

out there to navigate that too . I

34:32

don't have them on the top of my head , but I know

34:34

they exist and

34:36

that's certainly something

34:39

to explore how

34:41

to reconcile

34:43

one's religion with

34:45

the accessories and tools that may

34:48

be needed to facilitate that relationship

34:50

, because finding

34:53

a way to bridge

34:55

that can absolutely

34:57

be within alignment of

35:00

one's religion . All

35:02

of that said , there's so

35:06

much else we can do to access

35:08

intimacy and

35:11

interpersonal connection . Connection

35:21

. So you know , whether or not one of the partners is physically capable

35:23

of what they desire is a different thing from not desiring

35:26

it and not wanting

35:28

to desire it .

35:32

That's one thing I hear all the time is

35:34

women are like my

35:37

hormones are all out of whack or menopause

35:39

or whatever , and I no longer have

35:41

that desire . I want to get that

35:43

desire back . They had desire

35:46

, very sexual , and

35:48

they just don't feel it anymore .

35:51

Yeah , and sometimes it's hormonal

35:54

. But honestly , a lot of times

35:56

it's contextual . You

35:58

know , sexual

36:00

arousal often thrives on

36:02

newness and novelty

36:04

and what

36:07

can inspire fantasy , and

36:10

you know that erotic experience

36:12

. So sometimes

36:15

people know exactly what they

36:17

need and that's what they do and it works

36:19

for them . And sometimes it only works

36:21

for a certain amount of time and it stops

36:23

working and it means

36:25

they need to change the context . They

36:28

need to figure out what does excite them

36:30

, what does inspire them , what

36:32

does pleasure look like to them

36:34

now ?

36:35

What does pleasure look like

36:38

to them now ? Right , and also , don't you think that bringing in intimacy like

36:40

a deeper connection , not necessarily

36:43

sexually related , but just

36:45

instead of the

36:47

monotonous same old , same old daily

36:49

grind you know , 20 years in a marriage

36:51

or whatever the

36:53

routine that couples get into but

36:55

just by incorporating

36:58

some type of just intimacy

37:01

, like walking past your spouse

37:03

and squeezing their shoulder as you go by , or

37:06

holding their hand once in

37:08

a while , um , unconditional

37:10

, not with any strings attached , but just affection

37:13

? I love that

37:15

you lean into all of the sensual options

37:17

right I'm like , because

37:20

I think those are tools to

37:23

access more sexual

37:25

activities .

37:26

Also just a small part of that larger

37:28

spectrum too . Let's talk about

37:31

intellectual intimacy , a

37:33

meeting of the mind , somebody

37:36

to geek out over things with , info

37:38

dump with you know , talk

37:40

about your thoughts and feelings

37:43

on the world around you , or share

37:45

in a fandom of some kind

37:47

, Right ? You know I

37:50

don't dislike

37:52

physical touch . I like physical touch

37:54

, but my

37:56

cup is filled through

37:59

intellectual intimacy learning

38:02

from somebody else , teaching

38:04

somebody else , sharing

38:06

your thoughts and feelings and being affirmed

38:08

and heard or challenged

38:10

, and given the space

38:12

to make mistakes and question and

38:15

figure things out , or

38:17

just get excited about something that you mutually

38:20

enjoy . My spouse and

38:22

I are currently watching through

38:24

the series of Supernatural and

38:27

you know we're constantly pausing it and

38:29

talking about things like we don't

38:31

sit quietly through watching shows . It

38:33

is an active experience for us . So

38:36

the idea that you know sitting and watching TV

38:38

at night is a boring alternative

38:40

to sex no , it's

38:42

fun for us . That's how

38:45

we love engaging with each other and

38:47

you know that helps fill my

38:49

cup .

38:51

I gotta say I get a little turned

38:53

on when I , when

38:55

I can find someone who I can geek out

38:57

about , like sci-fi stuff . I'm

39:00

a big movie buff and if

39:02

you say you're into Star Trek , star

39:04

Wars , the , the , all the Marvel

39:07

, you know , superheroes and and

39:09

all the woo , woo stuff , oh my gosh

39:11

, I'm like Whoa , you

39:14

just got better . Looking to me , like

39:16

it's amazing to me how I

39:18

can meet someone and they don't even turn

39:21

my head . They , I , they

39:23

could , I could pass them on on a street corner

39:25

and I wouldn't even glance in their

39:27

direction like not attracted . But

39:30

then we get into a conversation

39:32

and we have some common ground

39:34

and and they're , they're funny or witty

39:37

or whatever , and just engaging

39:39

, oh M G , like

39:41

all of a sudden I got heart emojis in

39:43

my eyes and they literally

39:46

transform their

39:48

face , literally looks different

39:50

and I feel a

39:53

draw to them , whereas before

39:55

now swipe left

39:58

like there's no , no , it's an absolute

40:00

no . Oh , my God , I need to kiss

40:02

you now .

40:03

I have a term for you . Yes , please

40:05

. Have you ever heard of sapiosexual

40:09

or noetosexual ?

40:11

Sapiosexual I have . But what's that second

40:13

word ?

40:14

Noetosexual . It basically is the same

40:16

thing , because there was

40:19

a lot of controversy and stigma around the term

40:21

sapiosexual . Some people use

40:23

noetosexual instead , but so

40:25

you've heard sapiosexual .

40:27

Yes , I have . Yeah , Like

40:29

mental stimulation is

40:31

a turn on .

40:34

Yeah , so it's its own spectrum

40:36

. Again , it's self-identification , how you relate

40:38

to it . For some people Now here's

40:41

the way that it has been defined that people

40:43

get kind of pushed away from the

40:45

idea of being attracted

40:48

to intelligence , which

40:51

is kind of like being attracted

40:53

to beauty . It creates this

40:55

image of beauty standards or intellectual

40:58

standards , and immediately

41:01

makes you feel like you are

41:03

putting down people that

41:05

don't meet those standards , whatever

41:07

they may be . But an alternative

41:10

way to look at it is being attracted

41:12

to or needing an intellectual

41:15

connection in order to access

41:18

sexual attraction . So

41:21

sapiosexual or noetosexual

41:23

is kind of the intellectual

41:26

attraction version of demisexual

41:28

, which is emotional attraction is

41:30

needed to access sexual attraction

41:32

. So some people need

41:34

that intellectual bond

41:37

in order to access sexual

41:39

attraction .

41:41

I think I'm one of those . I love this

41:43

conversation because I

41:46

think it's highlighting the importance of

41:48

there's it's

41:50

not black and white , sex is not black

41:53

and white , or attraction or

41:55

romance , it's not black . None of that's black

41:57

and white , ever . There's so many gray areas

41:59

and and there's so many ways

42:02

to for us to explore within those

42:04

areas and and

42:06

just by doing that , you can really spice

42:08

a relationship up and

42:11

and make it more . I think , enrich

42:13

it like make it more multifaceted

42:16

, when you're open to exploring

42:18

varying degrees

42:21

of sensuality or sexuality

42:23

or different ways

42:25

to experience desire

42:28

for each other or comfort with each

42:30

other . To experience desire

42:32

for each other or comfort with each other . To

42:34

me , that's what I'm taking away from this conversation . It's just , it's a whole

42:36

buffet of

42:39

deliciousness that's

42:41

out there if we're just open enough to

42:43

explore the

42:46

different shades of gray .

42:47

Absolutely All of those topics , the different shades of gray , all

42:49

of those topics . It's

42:56

stepping away from the assumptions and the narratives that we've been

42:58

fed and starting to think what is it that I want ? What do I want ? What

43:00

does pleasure mean to me ? What do I enjoy

43:03

doing with my partner ? Do I

43:05

even want a partner ? Is that

43:07

what's fulfilling for me ?

43:14

is ? Is that what's fulfilling for me right , and trusting that there is going to be a partner

43:16

out there who will meet those needs . You know , like I gotta

43:18

say , when I found out

43:20

about this whole asexuality thing

43:22

and I'm thinking , oh my gosh , I think

43:24

I'm in that category to some degree

43:27

, what the heck ? Immediately

43:29

I thought , oh great , I'm great , I'm never going to find a guy

43:32

, because what guy

43:34

is is when they find out

43:36

, oh well , you know , not so much into penetration

43:38

, but let's , let's make out for a half hour and

43:41

it not lead anywhere Like what guy's

43:43

going to go for that is where my brain goes

43:45

.

43:46

When we get into these expectations

43:48

based on gender , what

43:50

we find is that

43:52

they don't necessarily fit

43:54

, regardless of what your gender is . So

43:57

, you know , if you

43:59

are attracted to men and

44:02

you're assuming that men are going

44:04

to need sex penetrative

44:06

sex , whatever that might be in order for you to be in a

44:08

relationship with them , then

44:10

it is going to seem very limiting . But

44:12

if you can recognize that there

44:15

are many men out there that

44:17

don't , that are just

44:20

as apprehensive about the fact that

44:22

they don't want that kind

44:24

of sex or they don't want sex at all in a relationship

44:27

, and they're also out there going

44:29

, don't want sex at all in a relationship

44:31

and they're also out there going , how am I ever going to find a partner

44:33

if I don't put out whatever that's going to mean

44:36

for them ? So really , we

44:38

just need to find better ways of

44:41

matching with

44:44

others in the world on the most

44:46

important things . These dating

44:48

websites that are based on swiping

44:50

, that are based on this instant

44:53

physical attraction

44:55

response , aren't

44:57

going to give us any of

44:59

the data that we need . And

45:02

if you have to make this decision

45:04

, you can't just browse

45:06

profiles . Okcupid . When I first

45:08

, when I met my spouse on OkCupid in 2008

45:11

, and when I was on it in 2008

45:13

, it was still owned by the original

45:16

developers who had developed this amazing

45:18

algorithm and you could browse

45:20

profiles and you could save profiles

45:22

. You can come back to profiles . You know they were

45:24

very detailed . They asked all of these questions

45:27

and the questions helped

45:29

to create these matches , this

45:31

match percentage , and there were thousands

45:34

of questions you could answer that would help

45:36

to narrow down your

45:38

matches . Then Tinder

45:40

bought out OkCupid and

45:43

they tried to impose their Tinder

45:45

algorithms onto OkCupid

45:48

, redesigned the site and

45:50

now it's just another swiping algorithm

45:52

. You can't save a profile

45:54

and come back to it later . You either have

45:56

to say yes to it or no

45:59

forever , and that is not

46:01

helpful for anyone that doesn't

46:03

have that instant gratification

46:05

connection and even

46:07

then , that doesn't give you any

46:09

idea as to how compatible your

46:11

lifestyles or interests or

46:14

anything else might be .

46:17

Trying to find someone in the

46:19

real world where you can actually have a conversation

46:21

and get to know them is

46:23

so much easier than

46:26

trying to read between the lines

46:28

and you start to assume

46:31

what a person is saying . Even

46:33

if you get into a texting conversation

46:35

initially and they say something

46:38

, you could be interpreting it as

46:40

them saying it in a certain way

46:42

, that kind of like you said later

46:44

. Like we expand on the good

46:46

aspects and we minimize the

46:48

bad aspects , my brain

46:51

is making this guy just so

46:53

eloquent and so lovely

46:55

, so kind and considerate

46:57

and really in

47:00

actual fact he may not be like that at all .

47:04

And that's one of the reasons that I got on OkCupid

47:06

in 2008 was because I knew

47:09

that I would fall

47:11

for somebody

47:13

that was not a

47:15

good match , and then my brain would keep

47:18

telling me no , we can figure this

47:20

out , we can make it work . So I

47:22

wanted to find a way to find

47:24

somebody that I knew was going to

47:26

be compatible with me before I let

47:28

my heart at it

47:31

and you know , I'm

47:33

lucky that I was on it when it actually

47:36

worked that way , my my spouse and I

47:38

were like an 80 something percent

47:40

match at the time and

47:42

we messaged back and forth for a while before our

47:44

first date and , you know , once

47:46

we actually met , we fell very quickly

47:48

. But the

47:50

options are just not there . And

47:52

yet that would

47:54

be such . That's what we need . We

47:56

need the original . Okay , Keep it back

47:58

. I don't know how to do that , but organically

48:02

, you only have access to

48:04

so many people in the world .

48:06

Well , yeah , yeah , yeah .

48:07

Sites like that give

48:10

a much wider access

48:12

to people that you would never meet in

48:15

your day-to-day life . Absolutely

48:18

so we need

48:20

tools like that . It's just

48:22

harder to figure out how to use them and

48:24

how to create tools that are going to give us

48:27

the actual data we need

48:29

. Yeah

48:31

, and we haven't even talked about the fact that

48:33

we have an entire world

48:35

of non-monogamous relationship

48:37

models to explore . You

48:39

know that those are on the table

48:41

too .

48:43

Right .

48:44

We already engage in forms

48:46

of non-monogamous relationships and

48:49

don't even recognize it when

48:51

we think about emotional

48:53

intimacy . People

48:56

who are socialized as women are

48:58

given the freedom to have emotional

49:01

intimacy with other women , men

49:05

, people socialized as men are

49:07

expected to have exclusive

49:09

emotional intimacy with their

49:12

sexual romantic partner . So

49:15

that in and of itself and I'm

49:17

not going to say that's across the board Some people the emotional

49:20

intimacy is also expected to be monogamous

49:22

from the woman too

49:24

. But if you think about it , there

49:26

are many ways we may have

49:28

deep emotional bonds

49:30

outside of our family and partner

49:33

, and

49:35

that can be just

49:37

as important . That could be just as much of

49:39

that connection . You know , some people

49:42

have one best friend , some people have

49:44

multiple best friends . Those

49:46

are forms of non-monogamy when

49:49

we're talking about exclusivity

49:52

of a form of intimacy , right

49:55

.

49:56

I love that , that . It is

49:58

intimacy for sure . I

50:01

have very , very close friends

50:03

who I

50:06

just absolutely adore

50:08

and love , love , love

50:10

. And we're

50:12

not sexual , we're friends . But

50:15

I've been more intimate

50:17

emotionally with them than I have

50:20

with a lot of my partners , like romantic

50:22

partners , and that's

50:24

valid , that's important , it's

50:27

really important .

50:28

I have a four-way best friendship

50:30

from college . We've now

50:32

been in this relationship

50:35

for over 25 years and

50:39

we don't rank our relationships

50:41

within this group . We

50:44

have individual relationships with each

50:46

other and then we have our group relationship . We

50:49

get together once a year for a weekend

50:51

getaway . We Zoom together every

50:54

Sunday . We are very

50:56

connected , very emotionally close

50:59

. We have a Facebook group just for us

51:01

. We have very strong

51:03

bonds with each other and

51:05

we have had partners that didn't understand

51:08

our relationship and kept

51:10

, and some of them wanted us to

51:13

devalue our collective relationship

51:15

in favor

51:17

of that romantic partner

51:20

and it's it's been

51:22

a challenge over the years , but we have

51:24

continued to hold our relationship together

51:26

. We have worked on it you know

51:28

, and it's it's been

51:30

an amazing part of my life .

51:33

Wow , I love that , that

51:36

commitment like every Sunday

51:38

connecting and then

51:41

every year getting together , that's quite

51:43

a commitment . That's love , that's

51:45

, that's wonderful

51:47

and that I mean . But they're

51:49

not that emotionally intimate

52:12

with them as you

52:15

are with your friends .

52:16

Oh gosh , I love , that Our love story

52:18

is one that gets devalued in

52:20

social context and yet

52:22

, you know , it's one of the most important

52:24

relationships in my life and

52:27

we have a beautiful love story

52:29

. It's just a platonic love story

52:31

. It's an also

52:33

another way to term . It is an amical love

52:36

story . Amical being a

52:38

sibling or , um , you

52:40

know , best friend type bond right

52:43

, which is a strong

52:45

bond yeah

52:48

oh wow , that's lovely love

52:50

is vast and

52:52

is such a beautiful thing to

52:54

explore . Um , I'm sure you know

52:56

about , uh , the , what

52:59

are they ? The love languages . Yeah

53:02

, yeah , anne pottership

53:04

wrote an alternative

53:07

18 languages of modern

53:09

love and it

53:11

centers platonic love

53:14

and de-centers

53:17

the religious

53:20

, heteronormative type

53:23

of hierarchical

53:25

love that Chapman's

53:27

book created . So I

53:29

definitely recommend going and

53:31

looking up Anne Hoddership's work on

53:34

Amazon .

53:35

Yeah , I will . I'll include that in the show

53:37

notes . I had not heard of her

53:39

. I got to check that out

53:42

.

53:42

18 you said 18

53:44

. Yes , there's also a workbook

53:46

.

53:49

It's so good . I did get an education today

53:51

. I knew it in the beginning and

53:54

you were true to form , you delivered

53:56

for sure . I'm really

53:58

yeah , I'm really glad that you were open to

54:01

coming on the show today and educating

54:04

me and , who knows , some of my listeners about

54:06

this really important topic , because it feels very

54:09

in the shadows and not talked

54:11

about and not brought any

54:13

importance to , and so I

54:15

think it is important to

54:17

explore this . I mean , it's just sort

54:19

of I don't know . It feels like an evolution of liberation

54:23

and freedom that

54:26

we've been exploring in the last century

54:28

, especially for women , I guess , and

54:30

this just feels like another step in that

54:33

evolution of love

54:36

, basically

54:38

. So thank you for

54:40

being a conduit , a

54:42

vehicle to deliver this to the world

54:45

.

54:45

Thank you for sharing your story too . I

54:47

enjoyed the back and forth . That's

54:50

always nice . Thank you , Aubrey .