0:00

Hello and welcome to Rosebud,

0:02

the podcast about interesting people

0:04

and their first memories. We've

0:07

had extraordinary guests from Dame Judi

0:09

Dench to Sir Michael Palin, actors,

0:12

entertainers, writers, Oscar winners, an

0:14

astrophysicist, an archbishop of Canterbury,

0:17

all sorts. And this

0:19

week is no exception. Though

0:21

this week I'm not in our usual

0:23

studio at Groven House in London's Park Lane, I'm

0:26

on a train travelling from London

0:28

to Burton on Trent, where

0:31

I'm meeting up with the man

0:33

who aspires to be the United

0:35

Kingdom's next Prime Minister, Sir

0:38

Keir Starmer. A

0:40

lawyer by training, an MP since

0:43

2015, leader of the opposition since

0:45

2020, you've seen him on

0:47

TV and at the dispatch box. But

0:49

who is he? Where does he come from?

0:52

Who were his parents? What

0:54

were his boyhood, hopes and dreams?

0:57

What made him what he is? I

1:00

promise you, there'll be no party politics here,

1:03

but some interesting stories I hope, some

1:05

laughs and even perhaps some

1:08

tears. Hear the music. I

1:34

want to begin Keir, if I may, with the

1:36

same question I always begin with. What

1:38

is your very first memory?

1:43

I've never been asked that before. So

1:50

in terms of memory and impression, I think

1:54

I must have been about four years old

1:57

when we got our first

1:59

car. a full Cortina, a blue

2:01

full Cortina. And I remember the

2:03

build up to this and then

2:05

waiting by the front door for hours for

2:09

my dad to come home with

2:11

this new car. That

2:13

was a first, if you like, vivid

2:16

memory that I have of

2:18

me sort of in shorts and a

2:21

T-shirt, best striped T-shirt and the

2:23

wonder of this thing called a

2:25

car. Where was this

2:27

happening and who was your dad? So this

2:29

was in our house in Oxford,

2:32

her screen on the Surrey-Kent border.

2:35

And my dad was

2:37

a tool maker, worked in a factory all his

2:40

life. My mum

2:42

was a nurse until she suddenly got

2:44

too ill. So

2:46

we didn't have a lot of money. And so a

2:49

car was a really big deal to get this

2:51

Ford Cortina. So I

2:53

remember that. And I've

2:55

also got a memory of cleaning it. I

2:57

want this amazing thing, I wanted it to look nice

3:00

at all times. You were very proud of it. Very

3:02

proud of it. And do you remember your first

3:04

drive in it? No,

3:08

I mean, I remember, I wouldn't say

3:10

the first drive, but the general setup

3:12

was, because

3:14

they had the, if I remember rightly, sort of right

3:17

across the back, no seat belts, I don't

3:19

think, and four kids we had all

3:22

sitting across the back like a sort

3:24

of row of children being driven

3:26

around in this Ford Cortina. I mean, as we got

3:28

older, we each got a

3:31

dog. So we had a point where we had

3:34

two adults in the front, four children in the

3:36

back, and four dogs in the car

3:38

at the same time. I

3:41

can tell you, it was a bit

3:43

of a squeeze. So you can imagine

3:45

this family setting off year after year,

3:48

we would go every year to the Lake District, to

3:51

the same row of cottages in

3:53

Langdale Valley. So the row of old

3:56

were quarry miners cottages. And

3:58

we would drive off. a

4:00

roof rack, four children, four

4:03

dogs, and mum and dad in the front,

4:05

all the way to Lake District every

4:07

year. What was your dog called? Percy,

4:10

a red setter. And did you name him

4:12

Percy? I did. I think I

4:14

named him Percy after the

4:17

railway books and Percy

4:19

the train engine. Oh. Tell me

4:21

about your parents, your dad, Rod, was his

4:23

name, was your middle name? Yes.

4:27

What was his character and what sort

4:29

of personality did he have?

4:33

He was a working

4:36

man, proud. He

4:39

was a toolmaker. He

4:41

would have liked to have gone to university. He really would have

4:44

liked to have gone to university. But he

4:46

didn't have the money. The family didn't have

4:48

the money. They didn't get the chance. So

4:51

he became a toolmaker. He

4:54

worked at night school to

4:56

get his qualifications in apprenticeship

4:59

and worked in a factory with his

5:01

life. For most of his life, if he worked for somebody else

5:03

towards the end, he was self-employed.

5:07

Very skilled. So my image

5:09

of him at work is this guy

5:11

in big steel toe caps, overall

5:14

on, swarf eager, you know, cleaning

5:16

himself every night. Standing on

5:18

decking because if you stand in a factory

5:20

all day, you stand on decking because you

5:22

know that the concrete floor is

5:24

very hard and decking just gives you a little bit

5:26

of give, makes you less tired over the course of

5:28

the day. And he'd work in

5:30

that factory long, long hours.

5:34

But he felt, he

5:37

felt disrespected. And

5:40

I have this memory

5:43

of my mum and

5:45

dad having people around to the house. And

5:49

the inevitable conversation, what do

5:51

you do for a living? And

5:54

he would come to his turn. He would

5:56

say, I work in

5:58

a factory. And for my dad, there

6:00

was a gap

6:02

in the conversation at that point where

6:04

nobody knew what to say and

6:08

that made him feel that he was disrespected

6:10

he wasn't valued and he hated it and

6:13

it ate away at him and I

6:15

mean I've seen this more clearly in retrospect and after

6:17

the event I have to say but

6:19

it caused him to retreat

6:22

so we didn't have people around

6:24

very soon. He would very rarely go

6:27

out with friends for a

6:29

meal or whatever and I think at

6:31

the heart of that was this sense that

6:34

he felt because he worked on the shop

6:36

floor he was disrespected by other

6:38

people and for

6:41

me that helped

6:43

me because respect

6:46

and dignity are two of things that I care

6:48

about hugely in politics you've got your big

6:50

policy issues here there in every way. Did it

6:52

make it difficult for him to be a

6:54

warm father? This sense of holding

6:56

back being... It did.

6:59

I mean was he affection towards

7:01

you? No he withdrew.

7:03

My mum

7:05

was very ill very very she had

7:07

Stills disease that's like juvenile arthritis but

7:10

very aggressive and she got it when she was 11 and she

7:13

was told two

7:15

things you

7:19

won't be having children and you'll be in a

7:21

wheelchair by the time you're 20 and you won't walk

7:23

again. My mum

7:25

was a very determined woman and

7:28

she was a name Joe and

7:31

so Rod and Joe they were an item in

7:34

the sense that it was never Rod

7:36

without Joe never Joe without Rod. She

7:38

had a brilliant consultant up at Guy's

7:40

Hospital who tried her on

7:42

this sort of one drug steroid based

7:44

drug and that meant

7:47

that she didn't go into a wheelchair when she

7:49

was 20 she had lots of

7:51

operations difficult operations but she carried on

7:53

walking and she was not prepared

7:55

to accept that she wasn't gonna have children so

7:57

she had four children. struggle.

8:00

She was very ill, she

8:02

was touch and go a number of

8:04

times in intensive care. And

8:08

my dad dedicated

8:12

his whole life to her, everything,

8:14

complete commitment, undying

8:16

love, knew

8:18

every symptom she had, knew exactly what

8:20

had to be done when she was

8:22

at hospital, sometimes for a prolonged period. He

8:25

wouldn't leave the hospital unless he left with her,

8:27

bring her home. And

8:30

that, so all of it, if

8:33

you like, his emotional energy went into that

8:35

relationship of supporting my mum, but it meant

8:37

there wasn't any space left for children. And

8:42

so we weren't close. It

8:44

wasn't an emotional relationship. I

8:49

can't even remember the last time I hugged my dad before

8:51

he died. And

8:54

therefore, it was

8:57

a lonely space, I suppose, as a child in some

8:59

respects. My mum was very warm and bubbly, very, very

9:01

warm woman, but my dad not so

9:03

much, partly because he was withdrawing, because he felt this

9:05

sense of disrespect, and partly

9:07

because everything he had was being

9:09

emotionally invested into this relationship, supportive

9:12

relationship of my mum. And I

9:18

knew that somehow this had to

9:20

be mended, this relationship with my dad, or I've

9:22

had to find a way of addressing it. And

9:24

I don't have any regrets in life. But one of them

9:27

is, I never addressed that whilst

9:29

he was alive. So

9:31

my mum died just weeks before I became

9:33

an MP. And

9:36

then my dad died three years later.

9:39

Quite quickly and unexpectedly, but I knew

9:42

he was dying. And I didn't

9:45

take that opportunity of talking to

9:47

him about our relationship, my relationship

9:50

with him. So when you were small, who

9:52

were your close relationships with? Your brother and sister? Where

9:55

were you in that? So I had an older sister

9:59

than me. 18 months later Then

10:02

my younger brother and sister who were twins for about 18

10:04

months after me So we're quite and so you they were

10:06

your best friends when you were a little boy. Yeah, we

10:08

were we were a group

10:10

of kids doing our thing

10:12

and That was close

10:15

We had a three-bedroom house mum and dad in one

10:17

the girls in the other of me and my brother

10:19

in a in the small room We did a bad

10:22

bargain with my sisters and got the small

10:24

room with a bunk bed Which is where I grew up

10:26

and we had a field behind us and we would go and play

10:29

in the field and

10:32

Things changed when the 11 plus

10:35

came along because I passed and my siblings

10:37

didn't so I started Now

10:39

a different track getting a bus to school In

10:43

Rygate every day whereas they were Oxford at the before

10:45

you get to be in level What were the games

10:47

you played as a boy? What were you what were

10:49

them in your bunk bedroom? What

10:52

were you doing? Oh, I was out the bunk bed room

10:54

as much if you if you're in a small room with

10:56

your brother with bunk beds You're out the room as

10:58

much as you can. It was just wasn't enough space out

11:01

the room Football football football.

11:04

So if I could get outside I was playing probably three or

11:06

four times a week There was

11:08

a local club

11:10

bolterst athletic in

11:13

her screen, so I signed up with

11:15

them as soon as I could and After

11:18

them I played for a team in Eden Bridge but

11:21

that was for me football was massive

11:24

release it was a great thing and bolterst

11:27

athletic was the local village

11:29

boys team and one

11:32

day one of the guys was running

11:34

it managed to get this clapped out old van and

11:39

We put two benches

11:42

Along the side of the van inside the back had no

11:44

windows Painted it with the

11:46

bolterst athletic clubbers and for

11:48

us This was like a VIP coach as

11:51

we went around the villages playing our

11:53

games our away games city All

11:55

the boys including me sitting in the back no

11:57

windows side on on this bench No

12:00

seatbelts or anything. Well, you were a

12:02

happy little boy, really. It was fantastic.

12:04

What's your first recollection of sadness in

12:06

your life? Do you have grandparents who

12:09

died? Was there something that happened that

12:11

made you sad, ever? Yes, it

12:13

was when I was about 13. And

12:17

my mum was in

12:19

hospital. And

12:22

I was at home

12:24

with my siblings. My dad was at the hospital, of

12:26

course, at my mum up in London. And

12:29

he phoned. I was in the

12:31

kitchen. And

12:34

he said, I don't

12:36

think your mum's going to make it. Exact

12:39

words. First

12:42

time in my life, I actually thought we

12:44

were going to lose her. And

12:47

that is a very raw

12:49

memory. She pulled through.

12:53

And then we went through that

12:55

a number of other times. But that was the very first time

12:57

as a 13-year-old. And

12:59

he didn't, for a moment, what he was going

13:01

to say. He didn't say, I've got

13:03

something difficult to tell you. He just said. But

13:06

he did tell you. It's interesting that

13:08

he told you, in the sense that he

13:10

did reach out to you at that moment. Did he call the

13:12

others as well? No, he asked me to tell them. Which

13:16

I can't

13:19

remember that bit. I can't remember how I did that.

13:22

That's one of the most obvious. It was just

13:24

that I remember holding the receiver and

13:27

hearing those words. So

13:29

what age were you when

13:32

you were already grown

13:34

up by the time she did die? Yes.

13:36

So it was a roller coaster. It

13:39

was a roller coaster. She would be in

13:42

intensive care, get

13:45

better, back into intensive care for other

13:47

things. She would always get up and walk. I want to

13:49

walk. I want to walk. I want to walk. Which is

13:51

why it's amazing to go to the late district. What

13:54

do you do if you can't walk? If you're my mum,

13:56

you go to the one place where the only thing you

13:58

can do is walk. So she's doing it. determined I am

14:00

going to walk and then

14:02

there came a point about

14:05

probably 10 years before she died where she

14:09

got so well she had to have her leg amputated and

14:12

this was the end of the walk

14:14

forever the one thing that kept her

14:16

going and that then I

14:20

think destroyed her spirit and she

14:23

was then in a wheelchair she couldn't

14:25

get in and out of bed gradually

14:27

lost the ability to control her hands

14:30

didn't speak and

14:34

I think that I genuinely think

14:36

that not being able

14:38

to get back up and walk which had just kept

14:40

her going in the end broke

14:43

her spirit and sadly

14:46

as I say she died just before I

14:48

became an MP which she would have

14:50

loved she'd have loved to have seen that day and

14:54

our children were young and

14:56

so they never had a conversation with her because by

14:59

the time they saw her she wasn't

15:02

able really to move to get out of bed to

15:05

communicate with them and that's a

15:07

real sadness for me because they've

15:09

never seen her as she really was when you

15:11

were young as a teenager did you share this

15:13

with your with the twins and your sister do

15:15

you talk about these things no

15:18

we were quite a I don't

15:20

know there's a certain sort of I don't

15:23

know English families that in

15:26

a funny kind of way we just it

15:29

was get on with it territory and

15:31

so we didn't talk about it the way we didn't the

15:35

wasn't a sort of habit within our family of

15:37

talking things through we just

15:39

sort of got on with it even when there were

15:42

those difficult moments but we do talk

15:44

about it a bit now but we didn't as you'd

15:46

thought you'd have thought we would you know what are we gonna do

15:54

it's Giles here and I'm delighted to tell you that

15:56

2024 is a very special time

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being the very best at what you

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do for many years to come. 95.

17:11

Wow. Who's

17:15

your best friend at school? One

17:19

of my best friends at school is still one of my

17:21

best friends, so I've had very, very long friendships. A

17:23

guy called Colin, I've called him John all my

17:25

life, so he calls me John. I called

17:28

him John, don't know why. What do you call

17:30

him? He wants to be called Keir by him. How

17:32

does that mean a nightmare being called Keir? Well, I

17:34

now really like being called Keir. Well, it's quite useful

17:36

now. Yeah, it is quite useful. It puts you in,

17:38

you've got a bit of a heritage there. But when

17:40

I was growing up, I was

17:42

one of these kids that I didn't want to stand

17:44

out, I didn't want to be the centre of attention,

17:46

and being called Keir made me stand out,

17:49

and Keir rhymes with a lot of things

17:51

that kids love saying at school. So I

17:53

just wanted to be called Pete or Dave

17:56

or John. Not Rodney. Not

17:58

Rodney, no. I've never liked that then. Okay,

18:02

so when you're this age, I

18:04

knew what I wanted to be by the time I was 11. Did

18:09

you really? Oh, yes, but it was a

18:11

multiplicity of things. But

18:13

you had that clarity of... I had that clarity,

18:16

yes. I was 11, 1959, and I

18:18

stood in the school mock election. Right,

18:22

so you really did know when you were.

18:24

Certainly. I was the candidate as I was in

18:26

64, 66. Oh, absolutely.

18:28

I was there right from the beginning.

18:32

The public decided otherwise that I had to

18:34

think of other things to do. No, I

18:36

was clear. I had a

18:38

variety of ambitions. I wanted to write, I wanted to be

18:40

prime minister, I wanted to be an entertainer.

18:43

But I could picture it all. What

18:46

were your daydreams when

18:48

you got into the grammar

18:51

school and then passed the 11 Plus,

18:53

which was exceptional in your family? Yeah.

18:56

You were nearly a clever boy, loved the

18:58

football. But what did you hope? What were you in your head? What

19:00

was going on? In

19:03

terms of what I would do, not a lot.

19:07

I wanted to play football in the end.

19:09

I wasn't good enough. But

19:11

I didn't know what I wanted to do.

19:15

I think there were two reasons for that, which actually I'd

19:17

carry with me because I think they're very important. The

19:20

first is I hadn't

19:22

been exposed to a lot of things. My

19:26

dad had retreated within my mum,

19:28

so we didn't have other people around

19:30

the house who did other jobs. So I wasn't exposed

19:32

to it there. The only work

19:34

environment I'd ever known before I left

19:36

to go to university was my dad's

19:38

factory. I'd never been in an office.

19:41

I'd wanted to leave university to study law. I'd never

19:43

met a lawyer. I had a pretty little

19:45

idea of what lawyers did. In the end, I

19:48

did law because I think I'd got very interested

19:50

in politics. I think my parents had thought those

19:52

are dangerous items. We need to get him off

19:54

that idea. And

19:57

he needs a secure job. Law is

19:59

a secure job. and so you know

20:01

they helped

20:03

me decide that I was going to do law.

20:06

That was the first thing, the second thing was

20:08

opposite to your experience, so I'm really fascinated. I

20:11

didn't think, insofar as I thought about politics

20:13

and an MP, I

20:17

didn't feel that was for me, that

20:19

wasn't for somebody like me and that

20:21

was something that

20:23

happens in your head. So the two things

20:25

I take into schools now when I go

20:28

for a visit, firstly don't let that voice

20:30

in your head that tells you that

20:32

this isn't for you, don't

20:34

listen to that voice. And the

20:37

second thing is make sure you're

20:39

exposed, have lots of a set of businesses, get

20:41

in your school, nobody can

20:44

aspire to do something they don't know

20:46

anything about. Kids all have brilliant aspirations

20:48

and ambitions but they need

20:50

to see the idea to be planted with

20:52

them. Did you have childhood heroes there? Were

20:54

there people that you admired? Footballers, all footballers.

20:57

Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Did

20:59

you go to church? Was faith part of your

21:01

childhood? Well, I was christened

21:04

into the Church of England. Were

21:06

you confirmed? No,

21:10

no, so I was christened, must have

21:12

been about two, I think. My mum

21:14

went, there was St John's Church up

21:17

the road and my mum went

21:19

to that every Sunday. We

21:22

went to Sunday school for a while but we

21:24

didn't go into the main service but my

21:26

mum was pretty religious and so

21:28

long as she could walk or get about she would

21:30

go up to church every Sunday. Is faith now part

21:32

of your life at all? Yes

21:35

and no and I know that's a bit of an odd answer. I'm

21:38

not a believer in

21:41

the sense of believing

21:44

in God but I do believe

21:48

in faith. I think faith is really

21:50

important. I think there's incredible

21:53

strength in faith and

21:55

the way it has the ability to Bind

21:58

people together to give people a sort. Said

22:00

sense of something because original nauseam

22:02

brought us. With

22:04

interface Oh well again a slightly

22:07

just and I said my my

22:09

wife's. Dad fix.com

22:11

as Juice His family

22:14

from Poland, Civics extended

22:16

families Jewish Vic's Mom.

22:19

Vs when she got married.

22:22

But let that that wasn't

22:24

universally accepted within their family.

22:26

a vessel. Technically, I'm my

22:28

wife is not Jewish and

22:30

therefore neither our children, but

22:32

because it's such a big

22:34

passes her family, her extended

22:36

family both here and with

22:38

relatives in his wrath. We

22:40

are bringing the kids up,

22:43

know about their grandfathers face

22:45

and religion, and know so

22:47

we do some of the

22:49

Friday. Nights press for example and

22:51

meals so you're saying and I

22:53

am and as a value and

22:55

or listens as a mother when

22:57

I am a controlled christians and

23:00

I love the the traditions, the

23:02

or the mean all that as

23:04

gov value of us Back to

23:06

your childhood you talked about your

23:08

status symbol for of memory of

23:10

sadness through your first moment of

23:12

joy, fragments in your use. Of

23:16

well yes or know.menu item is

23:18

that because a place for or any

23:20

time we stored or one was

23:22

a moment of great joys of most

23:25

of the deepest said says. Happiness.

23:28

I suppose I was when

23:30

I. Left hand

23:33

because university by then I had

23:35

a year off or put together

23:37

some money and aborted. National.

23:39

Car on I'd.in that

23:42

car, my bags, and

23:45

drove with a mate to leeds university

23:47

this was too humdrum on never been

23:50

to mates never be or hops on

23:52

his settles and drive up over two

23:54

hundred and how many miles from my

23:57

village in sorry on the or to

23:59

border to the city of Leeds and

24:02

I remember this real sense of

24:05

happiness and freedom and I

24:08

was driving to another world almost,

24:10

another chapter of my life and

24:14

so it was and so there was this incredible happiness

24:19

that I was moving on, I

24:22

was getting away from

24:24

this village into a much

24:26

bigger, because my dad had

24:29

retreated in, it was quite a small world in

24:31

many respects that I was

24:33

living in, fields out the back, family,

24:35

dogs and then

24:37

go to this city of Leeds and

24:40

that was amazing, I'd never been to a city but

24:42

I hadn't lived in a city. And did you have

24:44

a wild time? Did you have a wild time? Yeah,

24:46

a really good time, it was just, you know, everything

24:48

was going on but there were nightclubs,

24:51

there was curried chips, I'd never had

24:53

that before, there

24:55

was a cultural explosion in Leeds, lots

24:57

of different cultures and

24:59

exposure. And you lived in

25:01

a flat or how did you work out? To

25:03

start within a university hall for a year and

25:07

then in houses in Leeds with

25:09

groups of six with mates which

25:11

was fantastic and then down

25:13

to London to live in grotty flats paying

25:16

about eight times the price. And

25:18

what did you look like? Were you good looking? I

25:20

consciously... That is for others

25:22

to determine. Were you

25:24

smooth? I'll put it, when I left for Leeds, I

25:26

was leaving the village, I had fairly long hair, I

25:34

don't know whether you remember the football

25:36

of Ray Clements but he had the

25:38

hair down to his shoulders, so there

25:40

was my car, my Ray Clements haircut,

25:43

the sort of boomtown rat's elbow under

25:45

one arm and a jumper

25:47

on. Then

25:49

I got to Leeds, I met this guy John Murray

25:52

within a few weeks, he was very

25:54

cool and trendy and had

25:57

an independent music magazine that he was

25:59

flogged. Tom Razz, he

26:01

had this nag-nag-nag independent magazine

26:03

he was doing for himself. And

26:06

then within, I'd say,

26:08

weeks, suddenly, hair cut

26:10

different clothes. And so

26:12

by the time I left Leeds

26:15

University, I've been through a sort of special

26:18

sort of snap

26:20

course on independent music and looking better

26:23

than I did when I arrived. What

26:25

were your hobbies there? What were you

26:27

doing as well as the law course?

26:30

Football, a little bit of politics, the

26:32

minor strike was on. So that

26:35

was close because we were in the middle

26:38

of Yorkshire, obviously. And that was very intense

26:40

in terms of political

26:42

thinking. And enjoying life. I

26:44

mean, this was freedom. This

26:46

was cooking

26:48

our own meals. This was deciding what we do.

26:51

I was also, and this sounds

26:53

curious, I'm trying to sort of instill it

26:55

in my kids, I

26:58

was enjoying learning. I

27:00

didn't particularly take to O levels or

27:02

A levels. And then when I

27:04

got to Leeds, having not known anything about the law,

27:06

I loved it. I

27:08

really enjoyed studying it. And I was

27:12

enjoying the privilege,

27:14

although I didn't see it as that at the time, of

27:17

learning. What

27:24

do you think of the law?

27:27

Is there anything from your use that

27:29

you are ashamed of? Remember

27:31

the first time you told a lie or did something you

27:33

now, I know you're not full of gretts, but now you

27:36

do feel, I can

27:38

give you several of my examples, but I'm not going

27:40

to, because I want to hear yours. I

27:44

don't know. I mean, I'm trying to think. I mean,

27:46

there are lots of things that

27:51

I suppose I didn't do in the way that I would

27:53

have liked. Really, for

27:56

me, it's not so much

27:58

lying, it's loyalty. I'm a big believer. and

28:00

loyal fit, which is why I've got lifelong friends. And

28:03

so any time when I felt

28:05

I wasn't doing the best for my friends would have

28:07

been a feeling. I think I really meant something that

28:10

embarrasses you all. I think, oh my goodness, oh God,

28:12

can I, did I do that? Oh well look at

28:14

some of the outfits I was wearing when I arrived

28:16

at Leeds and that sort of thing. Yeah.

28:19

Well I'm no one to talk about people's fashion sense. So

28:23

what do you think, what is your, now

28:25

you're here. Are you,

28:27

do you want to be liked? Did you want to

28:30

be liked as a young person? Just thinking

28:32

of you having this quite isolated life at home.

28:35

You've become gregarious when you're out on the

28:37

football pitch. You've now broken free or at

28:39

Leeds University. Do

28:42

you like to be liked? Yes. I

28:44

think we all do. I mean I

28:46

think people who say no, I'm

28:49

not so sure they're being completely

28:52

honest. Of course want to be liked.

28:54

Want to be accepted. Want to be,

28:56

you know, we're human beings. We

28:59

are, you know, we're families, we're groups, we're

29:01

friends. So yes I

29:04

do. It's a difficult thing for a politician though. I

29:06

mean the reason I ask is because a

29:08

successful politician has to be ready

29:10

not to be liked and to

29:12

be ready to say no,

29:15

whereas everybody, one's instinct, I always want

29:17

to say yes to everything and everybody. Yeah. And

29:19

that is obviously a hard part of politics, you have to

29:22

say no to people and to think. I

29:26

think being upfront about when

29:28

you've got to say no actually it

29:30

helps and it's quite liberating and sometimes

29:33

for both parties to a conversation that ends in

29:35

a no, there's a relief because

29:37

there's sort of pretense that the answer might have been yes. So

29:41

there is that in politics. I think it

29:43

goes at different levels. I think when we're

29:45

being liked I have very very strong friendships

29:47

which have been life enduring. And

29:50

so in that sense I still want to be liked, I

29:52

want to be in those deep

29:54

friendships, the sort of people I can talk

29:56

to about anything, not particularly political actually, a

29:58

lot of people. I knock around with a

30:01

not particularly political and I have that safe

30:03

space away from politics because politics is when

30:05

you know this It's it

30:07

can be an isolating brutal

30:09

place where lots of people

30:11

don't only not like you But they revel in

30:14

not like you in fact, you know the whole

30:16

setup in the chamber. It sounds Until

30:19

you do it. I mean I'd be really interested your Standing

30:22

at the dispatch box. So you're on your bench

30:25

you stand up you move whatever it is a

30:28

Yard yard and half forward start

30:30

the dispatch box Suddenly every friendly face

30:33

is behind you and all

30:35

you've got in front of you is a wall

30:37

of faces of the opposite party Who are

30:39

doing their level best to make

30:41

sure that whatever you're trying to say doesn't

30:43

land and and that is that's the tribal

30:45

nature Apologies, you got be remind you do

30:48

like him. Wow Winston Churchill wasn't as you

30:50

said, you know, the opposition I The

30:54

members of policy on bridges behind you at the

30:56

moment we're doing all right, but

30:58

yeah I

31:01

think what people outside The Commons

31:03

don't realize is that much of what

31:05

you're doing on those witnesses is actually

31:07

rallying your own troops It's not necessarily

31:09

for consumption beyond it is for consumption

31:11

beyond but it's also performs a role

31:13

within I think that's really important

31:17

because people think well Where

31:20

again have you pinned this answer

31:22

or pin that answer? It's much more of

31:24

a roller coaster of emotion who's up who's

31:26

down whose side is pleased with the way

31:28

that their Leader has gone

31:30

into or come out of PMT is

31:32

in that sense. It's much more sort

31:34

of primary colors Okay, we're running

31:37

out of time I

31:39

think it's fascinating talking to you just

31:41

I want to finish with can you remember the

31:43

moment you first set eyes on your wife? Yes

31:49

We were doing a case together She's

31:51

a lawyer as I was a lawyer. She was a lawyer and

31:55

The first time I set eyes on her was after

31:57

I'd spent to run the whole on the previous occasion

32:01

So I was at court because I was about

32:03

to argue this case and

32:05

Vic, my now wife, was the

32:08

lawyer who prepared all the files and done all the real

32:10

work in the case. She was back in the office and

32:13

I was about to go and stand in front of the

32:15

judge and make these various arguments. So I said

32:17

to those that were with me at court, are

32:19

these schedules accurate? Because this case is going

32:21

to stand and fall on the detail in

32:23

this material I've got in front of

32:25

me, these documents. They said yes, it is completely accurate.

32:27

I said well, you say that but who put this

32:29

together? Victoria

32:32

Alexander. I said well let's get her on the phone then so

32:34

I can talk to her. So I get her on the phone.

32:37

These files, did you put them together? Were

32:39

they accurate? Can I absolutely rely on this?

32:41

Yes, yes. Then she

32:43

puts down the phone and looks

32:45

round to her colleagues in

32:48

the room and says who the F does

32:50

he think he is? And

32:52

so that was the start of this beautiful relationship,

32:54

what a beautiful one. And then I

32:58

met her, she's a fantastically gorgeous and

33:00

brilliant woman and

33:02

rather tentatively we

33:05

patched up and eventually got married. But

33:07

it wasn't the best of starts. But

33:09

that's very Vic which is very street

33:12

wise. I'm not going to be beguiled

33:14

by this barrister who the F does

33:16

he think he is as we etched

33:19

on her heart about

33:21

me. Well thank you for giving us the

33:23

flavour of your childhood. What finally do you

33:25

think you've learnt from it? What do you

33:27

think? What's your

33:31

view of the world now? From

33:34

your childhood? My childhood, firstly

33:39

I want my relationship with my children to be very

33:41

different to my relationship with my dad. So

33:43

I've really worked hard at that.

33:46

So spend a lot of time with them,

33:48

make time for them because in politics you will know

33:50

this, it's very easy to use up your time. Any

33:53

politician can fill their diary and

33:55

think that that means they're doing good

33:57

work, sometimes making space. on

34:00

a Friday we sometimes need prayers and Friday night meal

34:02

but I'm always home at Friday with the family. If

34:05

Vic's dad comes around then we've

34:07

got the family making

34:09

time for the children but also

34:11

Vic and I when our boy was born,

34:14

our first boy, our boy, we sort of

34:20

agreed with each other happy and confident.

34:23

So for our boy who's now 15

34:25

going on 16 doing his GCSEs

34:28

and our little girl who's 13 the

34:31

only thing that we are wanting

34:33

for them is that they're happy and they're confident and

34:36

that is really important to us.

34:41

If by any chance you lose your

34:43

seat at the general election what

34:45

would you do with your life if you were totally

34:47

free now? Oh I've already got

34:49

that planned there's a

34:51

little bookshop on Kenton Georgetown High Street and

34:55

I've always fancied working there so

34:58

if all goes badly you can

35:01

come and see me in my bookshop and bring

35:03

your book and I'll make you a cup of

35:05

coffee and we

35:08

can have a longer discussion so either

35:10

a booktime session or your book not mine

35:12

there. And I'll tell you a while, I'll tell you some

35:14

of my stories. That

35:28

one's a minimal conversation. I hope you

35:30

enjoyed it too. Thank you so much

35:32

for listening to Rosebud this week. We

35:34

love knowing you're there and we love

35:36

hearing from you so do keep in

35:38

touch. Keep listening and keep recommending us

35:41

please to friends and family. Before

35:43

I go it's time for some of

35:45

your first memories. These are so fascinating

35:47

and so evocative so thank you to

35:49

everyone who's sent something in. We've heard

35:51

from Angela Halstone who says, my

35:54

first memory is still with me. I

35:56

can clearly picture being in my pink painted

35:58

coat on Christmas morning. morning, and

36:01

being given a big cuddly grey

36:03

stuffed toy dog called Cuddles. He

36:06

stayed with me for many years. I

36:08

was born in central London and spent my early

36:10

childhood there. Escaping to the British

36:13

Museum on a wet Sunday afternoon to look at

36:15

the mummies was always a treat. I

36:17

particularly enjoyed looking at the mummified cat

36:20

and wondering if it had been owned by a

36:23

little girl like me. We

36:26

love hearing from you, thanks for that Angela,

36:28

and finding out about your first memories.

36:31

So if you want to get

36:33

in touch, drop us a line

36:35

at hello at rosebudpodcast.com and

36:38

we may well read out your

36:40

email in the podcast in a few weeks

36:42

time. Thank you. This

37:13

is

37:16

produced

37:18

by

37:20

Halyard

37:22

Jane, artwork by Freya Betts, and

37:24

music by Phil Leggett. Thank you.