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Quick question, before we begin this week's

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are you listening to this show and how could

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we make it better We have a short Anonymous

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survey at npr.org podcast

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survey. We'd love to know

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more about you and the stories you want

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to hear npr.org

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podcast survey. now

0:38

grab some lunch settle in and under

0:40

the show

0:45

you're

0:49

listening to rough translation from npr

0:52

as , they don't don't

0:54

to do is do it's lunchtime that

0:56

paris lunchtime a plasma chef

0:59

sir talking of their menus from separate

1:02

of tried setting from wine

1:04

crafts or staggered customers

1:06

, table are derived from

1:09

and seems like this are playing out in be strode

1:11

into teams across friends

1:18

meanwhile inner

1:21

office at the university of strasbourg

1:23

an english teacher named caitlin flashy furtively

1:26

pulsar head into the hallway looks

1:29

both ways see

1:31

no one to carefully click the door closed

1:34

returns to her desk and in the glove

1:36

her computer screen she pulls out a

1:39

salad

1:41

the and records this voice memo i reckon

1:44

listen team many mistakes

1:47

he has workplace

1:49

troll challenge which

1:51

is currently i'm sitting in my office

1:54

hiding

1:56

the turned it on site

2:00

my time in france people

2:02

generally taken our house two hours

2:05

and and try

2:07

not to talk about work

2:11

that i come from the us and

2:13

i love a productive lunch

2:20

and there's even a law in france that

2:22

sustains workers from

2:24

eating after test and

2:28

that is my workplace

2:32

thanks

2:37

what you say else for me then

2:40

there's a law because it's allies

2:42

against eating lunch at your desk and you

2:44

read this and unstudied

2:47

, havasu on an old

2:49

but we were so struck by

2:51

this idea that we sent our reporter cats

2:53

laszlo to various bestows in paris with

2:55

paris copy of the french labour code as

2:58

you know that i was alone

3:02

it really needed

3:05

what do you mean by really needed ah

3:07

i love sweets so

3:10

we called that caitlin the listener center

3:12

said policemen

3:13

when i hope you realize that i realize

3:15

this is the piteous things i could write

3:17

you about my lunch break is

3:19

too long and to relax

3:22

she told us she's been living in france and she graduated

3:24

seven years ago she's engaged to be married

3:27

this summer to a french guy so she's

3:29

here in france for the long haul and she

3:31

doesn't want to have to feel a criminal every time

3:33

she checks offer to do list at lunch

3:37

the paper says she has been a rebel

3:39

against the french lunch break this your

3:41

first job in front

3:43

oh yeah i had an internship in an angio

3:46

and so it was mandated that we take our

3:48

lunch break but take your lunch break literally

3:50

meant like go outside and

3:53

sometimes the weather was terrible

3:55

in the first week i didn't have any friends and

3:57

so i would eat my lunch quickly

3:59

and then make laps around the neighbourhood

4:01

like what are you supposed to do you

4:03

can't match your desk

4:05

and what would be actually the punishment for

4:08

coming back to death

4:09

it was just really looks down on my

4:12

boss at the time the explain

4:14

to me i think you're not

4:16

appreciating the full length

4:18

of time that you should be

4:20

in front lines think the opposite

4:22

of a conversation with the boss you might expect

4:24

are indeed see a was

4:27

to lunch longer right

4:32

this is rough translation and gregory

4:34

warner as you know we love getting your voice

4:36

mails in your emails the former stories

4:38

though i don't think we'd ever gotten such a clear

4:41

cry for help and , opportunity

4:43

really did i use the tools of journalism

4:46

solver not solve ensued someone's

4:48

workplace cultural talent so

4:51

he decided to find out the logic behind this

4:53

strange law and maybe convince

4:55

one american to leave work at

4:57

work

4:58

if you succeed aware all of

5:00

the French people in my life. Have not succeeded. This

5:03

would be

5:03

impressive. We have it on Can

5:08

you finish your lunch before you finish this episode? Well,

5:11

it kind of depends on where you live. It's no

5:13

lunch at work from rough translation.

5:15

Back after this break.

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feed we're back

6:26

with rach inflation and gregory warner

6:29

caitlin are american lizard france was

6:31

quick to point out that she does not have a problem

6:33

with long lunch breaks on occasion

6:36

i can appreciate

6:38

spending time in a specific

6:40

way and saying okay for two hours

6:43

for playing it all aside we're not looking

6:45

at our sons we're not taking that work and

6:47

that's good that

6:49

i just don't want someone to dictate that a has to do that

6:51

every day

6:52

wouldn't it be enough for the government to protect our

6:54

time to tell him players they have

6:56

to give us a break for lunch

6:58

there have also mandating where the employees

7:00

have to eat it but are you surprised that

7:02

this is written down and alone know

7:04

, knew read so when our reporter

7:06

cats laszlo interviewed lunch goers at

7:09

to be strauss almost no one

7:11

was surprised that the country would have such a law

7:13

law smokers have any professional studies on

7:16

this is just as french traditionally don't hold

7:18

on i've had some forces have lots

7:21

of people told us some version of this

7:23

that to understand this law

7:25

you just have to look at french culture but

7:28

the real story it turns out to

7:30

be kind of the opposite

7:31

the to meet you professor l you can say

7:33

martin professor martin bruegel

7:36

is a food culture historians that

7:38

the french national research institute for agriculture

7:40

food in the environment and when we get

7:42

on the subject of working lunches

7:45

he told me that a recent debate that broke

7:47

out at his own workplace on lunchtime

7:50

seminars whether

7:53

they were a useful

7:55

when the lunchtime seminar the american

7:58

brown bag was proposed the at

8:00

martin's institute

8:02

professors protested lunchtime

8:04

, been hours and for considered as

8:07

socially regress is intellectually

8:11

insufficient and so on on

8:14

as you needed a break in

8:16

stuart your for a time

8:19

and that brown bag debate is still ongoing there

8:21

are with a result the solution

8:23

is that isn't seminars happened but

8:26

happened sandwiches

8:28

are not even during the seminar

8:30

during india as

8:32

india self lunches

8:35

once and work is work keep the sandwiches

8:38

aside from the seminars

8:40

this was exactly the kind of social go

8:42

that had sent caitlin scurrying

8:44

back to your office with her salad oh yeah

8:46

like when she doesn't as go over their colleagues had

8:49

i do go out with them and i love spending time

8:51

with them i , often

8:53

try to talk about work and

8:56

that swindled reminds me as being like

8:58

oh this like oh off time with thought

9:00

about that later because it really

9:02

it they've grown up with this idea that you have

9:04

to make a separation between

9:07

lunch and works and when you're at lunch you're

9:09

not at work

9:10

but if they ever have never actually

9:12

tried to say listen our

9:14

way is better and here's why

9:17

i don't think any of my colleagues have this

9:20

question why it's the reason

9:22

that i called martin the food culture story

9:24

and cheaper stare recent law that

9:27

regulates how we sit

9:29

down to eat during the birthday

9:31

so that got me started the get

9:34

very interested in the origins of the french once

9:36

law

9:39

the story martin tells begins in

9:41

the wake of the industrial revolution of

9:43

the nineteenth century

9:45

the economy develop the distance

9:47

between someone's residents

9:50

and to workplace increased more

9:52

and more workers were spending most of their

9:54

day stuck inside workplaces no

9:57

work place in the eighty nineties

10:00

this you might imagine where

10:02

health hazards

10:05

they're monitor makers got mercury poisoning

10:08

match bookmakers guess fauci john

10:11

silver star still refuse

10:14

it wasn't just a toxic chemicals

10:16

in factories even the department

10:19

stores

10:21

they discovered that a double more microbes

10:24

per cubic feet and outside

10:26

if people worried

10:28

about workers life expectancy

10:33

like a fresh air was seen

10:35

as a culprit the ceiling was

10:37

that we have to flush to work

10:39

sites as we flush toilets

10:43

mechanical ventilation wasn't really wasn't thing

10:45

so instead they decided to open the windows

10:48

the get the dirt out

10:53

when can we do that and what

10:55

is the best time to do it's funny to

10:57

and people usually eat

11:02

the

11:08

and

11:11

so legislators passed a new

11:13

decrease article states

11:16

said , work sites had to be

11:18

ventilated touring eating

11:21

breaks shut down the machines

11:23

and articles nine cents worth

11:25

sites has to be evacuated

11:27

doing eating breaks get

11:30

the people outside and open the windows

11:32

to let the air is is

11:35

was the big public health insight of

11:37

eighteen ninety eighteen and men

11:41

was , so people

11:43

would spill over into the street which

11:46

, a problem made itself which

11:48

that the other problems crowded

11:50

streets littered parks

11:54

parks of women in the streets

11:58

the first women's right

12:00

actually i , seamstresses

12:02

was supposed to right to

12:05

eat in their workplace workplace

12:08

female labour inspector commented in her

12:10

yearly report for ninety no one the

12:12

enforcement of this law quote appears

12:15

tyrannical to the women and girls living

12:17

far from their workplace has taken up

12:19

the habit of bringing in there already prepared

12:22

already they wanted to go back

12:24

because they thought that eating

12:27

industries was not seem bleak

12:29

and eating not seem was too expensive

12:32

for them

12:34

what was the argument on the other side with

12:37

there's some fairy determine immunologists

12:40

was there a tony south sea of the of

12:42

friends who has ever , khazar

12:45

of the hygiene or something know

12:51

it had much to do with the political

12:53

structure in france you know it's

12:55

very centralized it also

12:58

happens that to do was

13:00

a heavy deputation of doctors

13:02

in the national assembly

13:05

doctors armed legislative power

13:07

in an assembly that was to splits point out

13:09

all men the seamstresses would

13:12

protest for ten years before they

13:14

get some exception to the law but meanwhile

13:16

restaurants and workers started to adjust

13:18

and people's food habits started to change

13:23

moments in the day when the french

13:25

eat our

13:27

extremely codified

13:30

i mean us breakfast between seven

13:32

and eight thirty lunch

13:34

between noon and one thirty

13:36

two that you can observe throughout

13:39

the twentieth century

13:41

but did the law you feel solidify

13:44

that i think it does yeah

13:46

one of the aspects that has been neglected

13:48

in the research on eating times

13:51

in french history french history

13:53

impact of the law

13:55

definitely had this conversation with my

13:57

fiance because at home we

14:00

the decide how we eat one

14:01

we eat again or listener caitlin

14:03

and

14:05

my eating snacks at random

14:07

times was not conducive to

14:09

his idea of setting mealtimes

14:11

and so he's definitely tried to convince me that this

14:14

the this the this better way to go

14:16

arquette he doesn't work know what

14:18

is it what what if any arguments

14:20

because he made

14:21

well the whole idea that you eat

14:24

better if you're not snacking you appreciate

14:26

the food food is meant to be shared

14:28

with conviviality and you have to sit

14:30

down and enjoy it i hear

14:32

that i just don't buy it

14:35

notice the arguments that caitlin fiance does not

14:37

make he doesn't say that the reason

14:39

french adopted this approach because mechanical

14:41

ventilation had been invented yet

14:43

they needed to protect workers hygiene the

14:46

didn't make an argument about work at all his

14:48

argument is about food and

14:51

the values around eating it

14:57

martin says this is the great misunderstanding

15:00

of most french people today to

15:02

think that the french lunch break was

15:04

invented to protect a once i

15:07

mean the reason why eating

15:10

, regulated had nothing to do with

15:13

with actual content off the plate

15:15

or so and everything with an

15:18

environment in which the which

15:20

was taken so

15:23

maybe the way to help caitlin with her

15:25

workplace cultural challenge with to

15:28

make cultural challenge for the french lunch break that she had not

15:30

heard before not about the

15:32

importance of food and not

15:34

about the nature being friends but hard

15:37

cold research about why lunch

15:39

break outside the job is better

15:41

for work the

15:43

only question is would caitlin

15:46

but

15:47

i came into this totally prepared

15:49

to defend my american productivity

15:52

and i think my argument is crumbling

15:55

rough translation makes the case

15:58

after the spring

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slash and pr

16:30

the viruses hitting

16:31

you're up with hits for this is rough translation

16:33

and gregory water bath with various restrictive

16:36

measures to control covered spread and

16:38

here's eleanor beardsley has more in february

16:40

twenty twenty one and for deaths recovered

16:42

nineteen and france were on the rise

16:45

president emmanuel my crawlies said to be conflicted

16:47

as a huddles with scientific advisors

16:50

he knows

16:50

the government closed restaurants it was telling

16:52

workers to stay at home sliminess

16:55

that was am pushing more sustainable

16:57

value on the cell all scenarios interval

16:59

and so perhaps it was inevitable that

17:01

the lunch break law born in one

17:03

public health crisis was suspended

17:06

is another france with no longer

17:08

require people to leave work during lunch and

17:10

for some conservative commentators sits

17:12

in the regular says

17:15

not living was cause for celebration

17:18

cities throughout the all a lot

17:20

to the with consider this

17:22

really you don't know why

17:25

should the government regulate eating they said

17:27

this is typical bureaucratic overreach

17:29

which martin

17:31

did not like very much i felt

17:33

it was my responsibility as a

17:35

historian but also sir citizen

17:38

martin feared the president microns heading

17:40

into an election made appease the conservatives

17:42

by abolishing the spot permanently and

17:45

martin as in a story and it's seen how culture

17:47

change can come in times of crisis

17:50

we sat down his computer to research the reasons

17:52

that workers would still need this piece of

17:54

labor code in the twenty first century

17:56

he poured through trade journals ergonomic

17:58

studies happiness the

18:00

compiling every scientific argument he could

18:02

find for lunching outside work

18:06

hey gail any the yeah

18:08

hi

18:08

the when i called caitlin back i came armed

18:11

with mertens research

18:12

if you succeed where as all of

18:15

the french people in my life have not succeeded this

18:17

would be

18:18

it's okay we have an on record here

18:20

we go let

18:23

me make a health arguments a

18:25

full lunch break tracks with better

18:28

health outcomes because you're not snacking so much

18:31

less depression less burnout

18:34

or job satisfaction i knew people

18:36

are simply happier to

18:39

take a break some

18:42

down times during the workday

18:44

it's good for their well being

18:46

what he says us

18:50

happiness and success sex and so

18:52

i'm pretty happy and i don't

18:54

feel overstressed what stresses

18:56

me out is when i have to step

18:59

away and i know what's on my to

19:01

do list then i can't get

19:03

anything done a my lunch break

19:08

okay productivity i really

19:11

like productivity

19:12

okay if you like productivity secures an argument

19:15

the french love to say that with their thirty five hour workweek

19:17

their their directly more productive much

19:19

more productive than what is usually

19:22

said about them and one of the arguments

19:24

is to say to of segmented time so

19:27

if you know you have to get everything done before

19:29

noon and you can't do anything until one

19:31

thirty you're going to get everything done in the three hours

19:33

okay that i buy a little bit because

19:36

our meetings are incredibly productive

19:38

we've sort and the max length of our meetings

19:41

down to like forty minutes

19:44

he has an

19:47

artifact it's difficult to the teacher

19:49

because i have classes in the afternoon

19:51

and when i get some past i just wanna go home so

19:55

my colleagues will stay pretty late of

19:57

dental seven trying to get

19:59

stuff done next day i'm thinking

20:01

you could have done that at lunchtime right

20:04

you want to get it out them of relief okay

20:09

the var i was not doing well

20:11

there was another argument that martin

20:13

did mentioned and actually the argument

20:16

we heard most often in the french beast

20:18

jos the

20:21

, a break with coworkers made work

20:24

more collaborative collaborative course

20:26

of course it's a moment

20:28

so for sharing

20:31

say sauce say

20:34

they said that is easier to work together

20:36

if you understand that way that they sing

20:38

with a thin would say they

20:41

are actually and you understand

20:43

why do they

20:44

the thing no to the thing i asked them to do this

20:47

why do they work like that old

20:49

and something going on in your life maybe that's

20:51

why your stress with ,

20:53

to drain drain

20:55

the town and have some why

20:59

they have less complex like you have more

21:01

innocent it's only have innocent it's

21:04

the next sources of from goes and

21:07

since israel first assets worth it

21:09

is are like are lot of people said that

21:11

it made them

21:11

their about their colleagues more that

21:14

it made conflict easier several people

21:16

brother effect silly okay

21:20

new arguments there's

21:23

fewer conflicts between coworkers

21:27

when they know each other better

21:29

none work way meaning they've created

21:31

connections with each other they know each other's people

21:34

not just his colleagues that

21:36

i buy you do buy

21:38

the buyer yeah my colleagues i get along

21:40

really well because i

21:42

know the names of their spouses

21:44

and kids and and we talked

21:46

about life whereas

21:49

that has always been the case in

21:51

other work environments where haven't taken lunch time

21:54

with my colleagues my

21:56

colleague last week his dad passed away and

21:58

i knew every step of the way because

22:00

every day we would check in and so

22:02

i knew how the progress is

22:04

going and it it

22:06

it definitely helps create community in

22:09

a way that's not difficult

22:16

in every good film noir

22:18

eerie that moment when the private

22:21

i realized that his client has been concealing

22:23

simply fact that will crack the case

22:26

and , case the key factor was missing

22:28

was probably my mistake i said

22:31

this image from her voicemail of for

22:33

eating the secret solitary salad

22:35

at her laptop and so i called

22:37

caitlin on a mission to convince her to share

22:40

lunchtime with her colleagues but

22:42

now i realized i only have half the

22:44

story

22:45

when answer describe for ideal lunch

22:48

yet starts with salad and the to

22:50

do this alone so i can

22:52

eat my salad

22:54

in get , few things such

22:57

as my list and then and

23:00

is when at that moment my colleagues are coming

23:02

back from there the

23:04

headlines and they're on

23:06

their weight or coffee time which is in a separate

23:09

spot and a separate place and

23:12

so i'll join them for them second

23:14

half

23:15

you don't have to go out of your way to do it because

23:17

that time is built into your daily

23:21

think about everything she does not have to do she

23:23

doesn't have to schedule a lunch with a coworker

23:26

chestnut think about whether they'll be busy

23:28

or whether she'll be busy just enough to make

23:30

a resolution to take more rest time

23:33

or hope for coworker has done the same

23:36

the just built into the flow of the day

23:37

that's very true and i think i've

23:39

been in france for too long because i started to take for

23:42

granted that like of course we're all gonna stop

23:44

gloat at the same time so it's

23:46

easy for me to say that i love my productive lunch but

23:49

i think if think were to go back to back us work environment

23:51

work environment be sucked and frustrated

23:54

that we don't have that

23:56

if minute really i

23:58

think so that this the

24:01

what do you mean i mean like you use

24:03

you wanna be at a place that has

24:05

a shared months you just don't always want to share it

24:07

stinks i said caitlin ,

24:09

found a workaround a way to have her

24:12

lunch and eat it too compromise

24:19

even the coffee time that she casually joins

24:21

last longer than many americans entire

24:23

lunch break but the problem with

24:26

statements compromise and she knows this

24:28

herself is that if everyone took

24:30

this on demand approach to france lensing

24:32

there would be no collective lunch for her to

24:34

dutch in and out of says

24:36

freeloading some everybody else is

24:38

most of these reloading rights i

24:41

was talking about this of cats laszlo who we sent

24:43

to the french bistro

24:45

my arguments they tell their had seem to change caitlin

24:47

slaves

24:48

she brought up his other arguments i may be another

24:51

thing that she's missing is interacting with people

24:53

in different fields gathers

24:57

, a same as axa here right

25:00

now i just finished the pay you you

25:02

chance with the guys on his pension

25:04

and it's really from a whole different working class

25:07

cyclical number and they know each other

25:09

and they talk about their day and they know

25:11

what's going on in each other's lives sick weber

25:13

said ellison there was another to

25:15

people who i like walked up and assume they

25:17

assume mother and son or something

25:20

as they were complete strangers who does wound up

25:22

at the same table and were like ever does having lunch

25:24

together about her was

25:26

unsettling get

25:29

it

25:31

and i think there's also like a sense of community

25:33

in that

25:35

in essence of opening your mind because you're talking

25:37

to people mostly from the say

25:39

they says oh my goodness

25:42

well and i think maybe that's something

25:44

you would miss if he didn't go out

25:46

that is the to me the

25:48

the ideal lunsford things

25:51

happen martin also makes this

25:53

case the value of random

25:55

encounters on a lunch break in

25:58

the funny thing about this argument is that

26:00

that really about making you happy or

26:02

or making you more productive or about

26:04

greasing the relationship wheels your coworkers

26:08

lawrence's it there's just a value to lots

26:10

of people collectively sharing

26:12

space with the same time and talking about whatever

26:15

then plane conversations and

26:17

unexpected rendezvous

26:19

it might just made the

26:22

park your next big idea or

26:24

change your life there

26:26

any breakthrough

26:29

or anything that's happened for you that

26:31

wouldn't have happened without the

26:33

shared well midnight

26:37

movies

26:45

what is the story of how you met your life is

26:47

you don't mind telling is

26:51

that story have you say mother unit

26:54

start to the student puppets see

26:56

was working at the national

26:59

, most most

27:01

arts and traditions to look at

27:03

traditional puppets she catches

27:05

the eye of a food culture researcher

27:08

and aussie half and to go

27:10

with food they're looting as popular

27:12

food popular and

27:15

i saw her and

27:17

i approached

27:20

but martin does not want to be so bold

27:22

as to just ask her out on the date

27:26

enter pretty tough to t shared

27:29

lunch v

27:32

, cleanse to get summer the social

27:34

cost is lowered doesn't

27:36

have to ask her out he could just joined

27:38

her and her friends and so

27:41

that's how we got to know each other you

27:43

saying the customer the shared months gave me the courage

27:45

to ask rather day in the possibility

27:48

also have a a

27:50

there is a lot going on in on

27:54

from lunch you can go to dinner

27:56

and to the movies and the

27:59

rest is movies i'm not

28:04

the history

28:07

of rest as martin wrote it in his defense

28:09

of the french landslide followed by

28:11

his hope for outcome the suspension

28:14

of the law with allowed to expire

28:16

the law with not abolished it is

28:18

once again the didn't see it lunch

28:20

at your desk in france they've been

28:22

told she's actually okay with that

28:25

he's realized she'd rather live in a culture

28:27

with a custom of shared lunch even

28:29

if it's not one that she always plans to share

28:32

if i were to conform to everything that

28:34

since people want me to do it

28:36

wouldn't feel like me similarly

28:40

new there's enough things that are like

28:42

in late in france that you have to

28:45

i want some liberty on my lunch time give

28:47

me liberty or yeah sore give me

28:50

sacks can be safe

28:53

when heated by glucose osu

28:55

as the lot more faster those

29:00

lovely at the man

29:03

one a

29:05

if you have been listening to this focused on

29:07

your lunch break or the average lunch break

29:09

in the us is thirty six minutes

29:12

which means that if your lunch break has

29:14

ended before this podcast dead

29:16

i think you're not appreciating the full

29:19

length of time that you should be

29:21

in front lines to hang

29:23

so much to cleveland flats you for sitting for sitting

29:25

voicemail and going with us on this journey

29:28

we would love to hear from you about your rough translation

29:30

moments especially in this case your workplace

29:33

culture story and don't forget about

29:35

our survey week tell us who you are

29:37

and your thoughts on how we're doing that

29:39

survey link is ncr that or

29:41

class side cast survey

29:44

the next

29:48

week on at work

29:49

for i cannot reports on you for gregory

29:51

says

29:53

well yes i was just thinking i've definitely

29:55

emailed you on a sunday and after

29:57

hours we look at another lot to

29:59

separate work like in portugal

30:01

employers who contact employees after

30:03

working hours will be fined and

30:06

it's got a lot of people asking questions

30:08

see don't have a case against me right now

30:13

the laws and our personal time

30:16

next week on or series at work

30:22

level

30:23

this episode was produced by adam in the land

30:25

cities with help from public with

30:28

go reported by cats laszlo edited

30:30

by the restraints rough transition

30:32

team includes a senior an obsessive

30:35

they always emily

30:37

vocals or visuals editor visuals editor

30:39

producer is the honest answer or supervising

30:42

senior producer is bruce after hi

30:46

thanks for the editorial insights from eleanor

30:48

beardsley robert pro which and sonic

30:50

crisis

30:53

the prince new save you heard in this episode is from

30:55

radio france and radio monte carlo

30:58

john , composer see music music

31:01

music by first call music an audio network

31:04

mastering by just knew of fact checking

31:06

by greater pitt injure in fear senior vice

31:08

president for programming is on you've grown that i'm

31:11

gregory warner back next week with

31:13

more at work on

31:15

rupture inflation