0:00

Hey, you're listening to rev translation from

0:02

NPR.

0:07

A topic that you may have heard us come back

0:09

to a few times in show is

0:11

how the conversation about race is

0:13

different from place to place. just

0:15

as the history of racism is different

0:17

in different places. But

0:19

it's interesting how so many of those

0:21

conversations often seem to make

0:23

reference to the United States. To

0:26

the point where the expressions of identity

0:28

and culture forged in America by

0:31

American black people have exerted

0:33

such a gravitational pull in shaping

0:36

how people around the globe see themselves and

0:38

frame their own stories that it

0:40

can sometimes make it hard for those of us

0:42

inside the United States to hear the

0:44

differences and the nuances

0:47

and the black experience across borders. And

0:50

yet, arguably, it is those differences,

0:52

those nuances that will shape how these

0:54

global conversations about race play

0:56

out and shape our world over

0:58

the next years.

1:02

So we wanted to play an episode of podcast

1:04

that is set up to tune your ears to those

1:06

international conversations.

1:08

podcast other than this one, it is called

1:10

the stoop. It's from radiotopia. On

1:13

each episode, journalist Hanah

1:15

Baba and Lilah Day dig

1:17

into stories and conversations from

1:19

across the black diaspora. Lilah

1:21

is African American, Hanah is Sudanese,

1:23

And in this episode, they are joined by indigenous

1:26

Australian journalist, Rihanna Patrick.

1:28

To ask, what are all the things

1:30

that start to shift when indigenous

1:33

Australians call themselves black.

1:35

Here's

1:36

Leila and Hana to take it

1:38

from here.

1:40

Hey, Leila.

1:41

Hey, hang on. So, Lila, over the

1:43

years, had a lot of conversations

1:46

about what it means to be black.

1:49

Uh-huh. Yeah. We have. We've explored

1:51

different shades of black and how

1:54

other communities understand their blackness.

1:56

Mhmm. Yeah. We've talked about a lot

1:59

communities, but Lila, have you ever wondered

2:02

why indigenous Australians

2:05

refer to themselves as black. I

2:08

mean, I would think they would and

2:10

they're all shades of black in

2:12

Australia. Right. But

2:14

do people there identify as black?

2:17

i am

2:19

Oh, we gotta go down under. Just do

2:21

this out.

2:22

Let's do it.

2:26

The stoop.

2:29

The stoop. The stoop. The stoop. The stoop.

2:32

The stoop. Stop.

2:35

My cousins were water and grease girls,

2:37

and I couldn't be a water and grease girl.

2:39

That's what I'm talking about. Ballerina in the hood.

2:41

We'd be gonna get you a ninety people.

2:43

The black woman walks up to the

2:45

desk in labor. What

2:49

preconceived notions do you have about her?

2:51

I didn't even know we had a hair sharp.

3:03

And

3:06

now what is what the Kukaburra sounds?

3:09

Are we really going to be this stereotypical,

3:12

this predictable?

3:13

I know. I know. But I promise

3:15

you, Leila, it will all make sense as soon

3:18

as we dig into how indigenous

3:20

Australians understand and

3:22

view their blackness, we're

3:24

gonna let Rihanna explain.

3:27

Good

3:27

day. Although,

3:28

that's not actually a word

3:30

I use.

3:31

Leila

3:33

Rosie who's staring on typical now.

3:35

What would you normally say if you were a greeting of?

3:38

Just high.

3:42

Hey, Rihanna. Welcome to

3:44

The Stoop. Why don't you introduce yourself?

3:46

Well, I'm Rihanna Patrick, and I'm a freelance

3:49

tourist straight island journalist and broadcaster.

3:51

in Brisbane, Australia. Alright,

3:54

Brisbane. Brisbane. And, I

3:56

mean,

3:56

Rihanna, I gotta call it how

3:58

I see it. I mean, you are you are just

3:59

as brown as us. and

4:02

indigenous Australian. So

4:05

black. Black. Well,

4:07

let's get into

4:09

this. Like deep into this.

4:11

Stereotypes and

4:13

dingoes and crocodiles aside.

4:16

I want to tell you something about that bird, the

4:18

cocoa bar.

4:19

So

4:22

for some aboriginal people

4:24

here, the cocoa bar is

4:26

a totem. something that

4:28

connects them to the

4:29

country where they're from, which

4:31

is how we refer to place. So

4:33

within this context that's now known,

4:36

as Australia. So we

4:38

have many different countries in an

4:40

aboriginal way here. Mhmm. Which

4:42

denote those boundaries within

4:45

neighboring clans and nations,

4:47

but also how our bloodline

4:49

connects us to that country too.

4:51

country and us are one

4:53

of the same. Does that make sense we don't separate

4:55

ourselves from either? Okay.

4:58

Yeah. Yeah. I think we get it. Mhmm. Yeah.

5:00

So now getting back to this cookabara

5:02

thing,

5:03

prior to this referendum that we had in nineteen

5:06

sixty seven, Australians were

5:08

asked to vote on whether aboriginal and

5:10

torres strait islanders should be included

5:12

in the national population sent And

5:15

we were cast very much as foreigner

5:17

and flora. So we weren't seen

5:19

as human and very much like

5:21

the cookabara. we were seen as animals

5:24

or plants. What?

5:26

This is this

5:27

is insane. You Flora and

5:29

Fauna people.

5:30

Yeah. And I can't believe

5:32

this. It wasn't that long ago that

5:34

ninety percent of Australians voted

5:36

yes to include us as part

5:38

of the population. So it's

5:40

it's within just before my

5:42

lifetime, but very much in the lifetime

5:44

of my dad

5:45

for instance. Mhmm.

5:47

That's crazy.

5:55

You refer to aboriginal

5:57

and tourist straight islanders. What

5:59

do

5:59

you mean?

6:00

Well, Australia is kind of

6:02

unique in that we have two

6:04

culturally different indigenous

6:06

peoples here. Aboriginal people

6:09

-- Mhmm. -- and then you have Touristrade Islands,

6:11

which is where I'm from and where my connection

6:13

is, who come from the islands

6:15

between the tip of Australia, so that really

6:17

pointy bit and

6:20

Papua New Guinea in the north.

6:21

But

6:23

if we get back to this question of

6:26

Why indigenous Australians refer

6:28

to themselves as black?

6:30

What's the story there? Yes.

6:33

So This term seems

6:35

to be quite controversial if

6:38

you're outside of Australia, particularly

6:40

if you're American. And I

6:42

I

6:43

think you guys should hear some of the

6:45

responses from Twitter.

6:50

Just

6:50

because you've been there for a long

6:52

time means you couldn't have

6:54

origins elsewhere. The

6:57

point I'm making is that black people

6:59

are typically about for kindergarten, and

7:02

that tomb is being misused in

7:04

Australia in my opinion.

7:06

Having dark skin

7:08

doesn't make people black. There

7:10

are dark skinned Indians, but

7:12

we don't say they're black. They're

7:15

still Asian.

7:16

Black is referring to people of African

7:18

descent, and his aboriginals are

7:20

originally from Australia. How

7:22

does that make them black?

7:23

They're not black

7:26

though. Their genetics are completely

7:28

different. You are mixed race,

7:30

not black.

7:31

They're not black. They're

7:34

their own wreath, oceanic,

7:37

germination,

7:39

phospholoid,

7:44

Okay. So, I mean, Americans,

7:48

we are very particular about

7:50

blackness and defining black,

7:52

and we always talk about that here.

7:55

Mhmm.

7:55

But Rihanna,

7:57

what got you thinking

7:59

about the use of this term black

8:02

and how it's used by

8:04

aboriginal and tourist trade islanders?

8:06

I must say I

8:07

know it goes deeper than your journalistic, like,

8:10

inquiry here. Is this personal? Yeah.

8:12

It is, I guess, a bit. I I mean,

8:14

I was sitting in a room. It all came about because I was

8:16

sitting in a room with other indigenous

8:18

people at an international indigenous

8:21

music summit, Inbordja, which

8:23

is the indigenous name in New

8:26

Orleans in Louisiana. Didn't know that.

8:28

Didn't know that. Didn't know that. Didn't know

8:30

that. Didn't know that. Lila? I had no

8:32

idea. Hold on. Go on. Sorry,

8:34

Rihanna, go on. Well, it was at this

8:36

moment I was aware that I needed to

8:38

refer to myself as indigenous rather

8:41

than black because the black people

8:43

in the room with me were referring to

8:45

their blackness in connection

8:47

to their African identity. When

8:49

I say I'm black, it comes from a

8:51

different place. So that's when I

8:53

started to question the term and how

8:55

indigenous Australians use it.

8:57

So This was

8:59

the moment I think that I really

9:01

went,

9:02

I need to I

9:04

need to dig into this for my

9:06

own understanding of why

9:08

I use this word too. So it just

9:10

it started off this chain

9:12

reaction leeler. Yeah. I

9:14

I find this fascinating. I mean,

9:16

I'm super curious.

9:19

I'm

9:19

super, super curious about other perspectives

9:21

on this and other Australian,

9:23

if they call themselves black and white

9:25

and how, and

9:27

I wanna know.

9:29

Yes. So Rihanna, who

9:31

did you end up talking

9:33

to about this? Well,

9:35

Dr. Jackie Huggins. is

9:37

a Vera Guberjuru historian.

9:40

She's an author. She's an academic.

9:42

She's also been a very big player in the

9:44

reconciliation movement here. which

9:46

has been about strengthening relationships between

9:49

indigenous and

9:50

non indigenous Australians. Kind of

9:52

for the benefit of, you know, all

9:54

Australians. And More recently

9:56

though, she's been involved

9:57

in a steering of

9:59

the state

9:59

of Queensland towards a treaty

10:02

with indigenous Australians. and

10:04

it might surprise you to know

10:05

that more than two hundred and fifty

10:08

years. After the fact, Australia

10:10

is the only Commonwealth country

10:12

to have never signed. a treaty

10:14

with indigenous people. Unlike

10:16

New Zealand, which is, as

10:18

we say, just across the channel, Canada

10:22

or even the US. What?

10:26

This is

10:26

insane. Are you telling me

10:27

Australia has never signed

10:29

one single treaty with any indigenous

10:31

Folks on the continent?

10:33

Correct. Correct. We're

10:35

really far behind when you let sets it

10:37

apart in a bad way. It

10:39

does. And And when you look at those other

10:41

the history of those other nations that I've

10:43

mentioned, those other countries, they

10:46

were very quick to

10:48

sign those treaties. Whereas

10:50

we're very far behind in

10:52

starting these conversations. I

10:55

don't know where this is going, this

10:57

episode, Rihanna. tell

10:59

us more. Tell Well,

11:01

what does doctor Huggins have to say about all

11:03

this? Well, I asked

11:04

doctor Huggins about, you know, does she actually

11:07

use the term black? to identify

11:09

herself. Yes,

11:10

I do. Quite often, I

11:12

I say that I'm a a black

11:15

woman. And, you

11:17

know,

11:17

I certainly use the term, black

11:20

fillers all the time. And

11:23

I use the term also, you know, with

11:25

white fellas as

11:27

well. Blackfellas.

11:28

What did she

11:30

say, Rihanna? Blackfellas. Black --

11:33

Okay. -- followers. Blackfellas. Run it

11:35

together. Blackfellas.

11:37

Blackfellas. Okay. But, you

11:39

know, I know some people who have

11:41

an issue with that and

11:42

call us indigenous

11:45

or First Nations. But

11:48

for me, it's it's quite comfortable

11:50

to use the term black when

11:52

I'm referring to myself and

11:55

when others refer to me. But

11:57

we do know the difference when they're

11:59

using that

11:59

term in a derogatory nature.

12:04

But when it's when it

12:06

says black to me,

12:08

mostly, it's very powerful. Was

12:10

there

12:10

a time where you actively started

12:12

to call yourself black? I mean, what

12:14

was that word like in

12:16

the times that you grew up in. I mean, you grew up

12:18

in a time when the government dictated

12:21

the lives of aboriginal and torres strait

12:23

island to people, it was a very different

12:25

time. In the nineteen sixties

12:27

and seventies, when

12:28

I grew up, that

12:30

to me was highly

12:33

offensive as

12:34

it was to my mother, and she

12:37

would never ever

12:39

use

12:39

the term black people.

12:41

Really? Mhmm.

12:41

She always said

12:44

aboriginal people And

12:47

for me, I remember it was probably late

12:49

in life, you know, in my thirties even,

12:51

that I started taking

12:54

on the term black. and

12:56

the ownership of that. But

12:58

of

12:58

course, you know, we've got to realize that we

13:00

were heavily influenced

13:01

in the nineteen sixties

13:04

politically. by

13:06

the civil rights movement in

13:08

the U. S. and aspects

13:11

of the women's movement as

13:13

well even though they didn't include

13:15

in any shape or form.

13:18

So, yeah, I think a

13:20

lot of the lot

13:22

of the call came from the

13:25

United States, and

13:26

we saw people then on

13:28

TV. proudly saying

13:32

that they were black. They were

13:34

black people. We thought, oh,

13:36

well, yeah, probably good to take that

13:38

on, but as I say, for me, it

13:40

didn't come till later

13:42

in the seventies where I felt really

13:44

comfortable because I I did think it was

13:46

their term to use. rather

13:48

than ours. And we just

13:50

in those days called ourselves

13:52

aborigines. We

13:54

didn't have any clan group

13:57

names like call myself these

13:59

days.

13:59

Badgera and Barry Gabbadiru,

14:02

we had to find those

14:04

terms. through our history that was

14:06

hidden from us. You know,

14:08

people put on to missions and

14:10

reserves. Did

14:12

your mom ever say why she didn't

14:14

ever like that word black? It was stoop

14:16

in the history, her

14:18

history because black in those

14:20

days were worthy

14:22

way you described aboriginal

14:25

people, particularly on

14:27

missions and reserves as

14:30

those black ones

14:30

there, and it was a real put down for

14:33

them. So she never

14:35

really came

14:37

to the realization that she

14:39

would be ever comfortable with that term,

14:41

black or blackfellas.

14:44

And it was the way

14:46

in which the colonial documents

14:48

described us as well, you

14:50

know, the massacre reports

14:53

the way

14:55

they put on

14:57

the removal

14:59

papers from

15:01

missions and reserves from country

15:03

towns missions and reserves. They

15:06

said how many blacks were there,

15:08

and the blacks did this. And, you know,

15:10

if there was a murder, you know, the

15:12

blacks killed some

15:15

station owners, etcetera, etcetera.

15:17

So

15:18

that's the way it was

15:19

really described I would

15:22

say, from my mother

15:24

from the nineteen twenties

15:26

to ride

15:28

up until the sixties, but then even

15:31

then you know, when the sixty seven

15:33

referendum came around, she

15:35

never described herself as black.

15:38

It was a problematic term for her.

15:40

That's so interesting because I

15:43

guess it's these experiences

15:45

that those that were born after that

15:47

referendum and a referendum that really allowed

15:49

us to freedom. It was they're breaking

15:51

down of a lot of those acts that have been put

15:53

in place to govern our lives and to

15:55

basically dictate to us what we could and

15:57

couldn't do. So how then did she

15:59

take you using that word? When as you

16:01

say you've got this influence of

16:03

the African American civil rights

16:05

movement coming through And I

16:07

guess the aboriginal I mean, would you say that the

16:09

aboriginal and torres metropolitan community has been

16:11

really influenced

16:14

by that those

16:15

movements, but also that activism.

16:18

Without a doubt, aboriginal and

16:20

torsional and the people have been

16:22

influenced by that activism and

16:25

the movements of Black

16:28

America, particularly around

16:30

the Black Panther movement

16:33

So

16:39

Rihanna, it sounds like

16:42

you were learning a bit about

16:44

Jackie during this chat with her.

16:46

Yeah.

16:46

I really was and I

16:48

can't imagine auntie Jackie, and

16:50

that's how I referred her. It's

16:52

a term of respect from me,

16:54

but also a term, auntie Jackie here, but also

16:56

a term that she's allowed

16:58

me to call her, but

17:01

I can't imagine her as a young

17:03

rebel because I've always been in

17:05

awe of just how diplomatic she

17:08

is. And so

17:10

to hear her here talking about

17:12

this more her more radical

17:14

days and how her mom

17:16

didn't like the use of the word black

17:19

was something I I really didn't know.

17:22

Mhmm. Mhmm. And and I guess if you have little

17:24

understanding of Australian

17:27

history. Aboriginal people were

17:29

forced on to missions, reserves,

17:32

stations, and it was here that their

17:34

lives were overseen by these people

17:36

called protectors who

17:38

controlled every facet of their life.

17:40

And in the tourists straight because that's

17:42

obviously the experience that I come

17:44

from. We were confined to our

17:46

islands, so we weren't dispossessed from

17:48

our land. but if you

17:50

didn't do something that the government or the

17:52

missionaries wanted or liked, you could be

17:54

exiled from your island. And so

17:56

when you understand that context. I guess it

17:58

helps in in understanding why

17:59

Arnie Jacky's mom might not

18:02

have ever liked

18:03

using the word black to describe

18:05

herself because it was negatively

18:08

used during the time that she

18:10

lived

18:10

in. So

18:12

doctor

18:12

Huggins talked about

18:13

the Black Panther party in

18:16

Australia Specifically

18:18

starting in Brisbane in the nineteen

18:20

seventies, I

18:21

never knew that this party even

18:24

had

18:24

a presence there. Hana, did you know

18:26

this? I did not. Again, we're learning.

18:29

A lot. Yeah. And I think

18:30

that's why I

18:33

really wanna to of delve into

18:35

this because I don't

18:37

think people, particularly

18:39

African Americans outside of

18:42

Australia, know the influence

18:44

that they've had on us here and the and the

18:46

way that African American civil

18:48

rights has influenced

18:50

the way that we even politically

18:53

have understood ourselves, and we've

18:55

learned things from other groups

18:57

like them. And and

18:59

they might not realize that we also

19:01

had a freedom ride here in Australia,

19:03

which was led by the late Charles Perkins

19:05

in nineteen sixty five,

19:08

and it wasn't just the civil

19:10

rights movement. that inspired indigenous

19:12

Australians. Even in the

19:14

nineteen twenties, Marcus Garvey

19:16

had a huge impact here.

19:18

these political movements were

19:21

global. So

19:22

then, how does the

19:24

word black come into this?

19:27

Well, I think it's really the

19:30

British, the ones that, I

19:32

guess, perpetrated this idea

19:34

during colonization and this

19:36

this notion of much indigenous blood

19:38

we had in us when they were

19:40

removing children as part of the simulation

19:43

policies, and they were quite rife at

19:45

the time And so

19:47

this understanding of how

19:49

black you were and how

19:51

black your blood was is

19:54

very much a thing here. So

19:56

to

19:56

generalize, it was all

19:59

a part of this

19:59

dividing of people, the idea

20:02

that if you were lighter, you were

20:04

closer to whiteness. darker people were more

20:06

discriminated against. Colorism

20:09

was and still runs deep in

20:11

Australia. So no wonder than

20:13

the aboriginal and torres

20:14

straight islanders have tried to

20:16

reclaim their blackness

20:18

and

20:18

unpack what it really means to be

20:21

black after all

20:23

these policies that try to deny

20:25

them

20:26

their blackness. Yeah.

20:28

So,

20:34

Rihanna,

20:38

how

20:40

are younger aboriginal and torres

20:42

strait islanders identifying and

20:45

using the term black today?

20:47

Well, on that, let's meet

20:50

Aurora. I'm Aurora

20:52

Little Christie. I'm born and

20:54

raised in May engine twenty four

20:57

years old make an art and heritage. So

20:59

my engine is one of the original

21:02

indigenous names for what is known

21:04

as Brisbane. So

21:06

me and Jane is like what we would say

21:08

here. We say we're on the land

21:10

of the Shoshone people or acknowledging

21:13

that the land we occupy high is indigenous

21:15

territory. Yeah. Exactly.

21:16

And Aurora a little bit more

21:18

about Aurora. She's a multidisciplinary

21:21

artist. Her mother is Arista from

21:23

Central Australia, and her dad

21:25

is Jamaican but grew

21:27

up in the UK. I've always referred

21:29

to myself as black. My

21:31

understanding of

21:32

my black ness was

21:34

always related to

21:39

my different

21:41

words like being Aranda,

21:44

being aboriginal, or

21:47

being African. I've

21:49

come to use BLAK

21:52

to identify myself

21:54

more recently as

21:57

a kind of reclamation. So BLAK,

22:00

I feel,

22:03

has been able to

22:06

incorporate all of my

22:08

identities and this

22:10

kind of in my own way,

22:12

my own flavor, of

22:16

blackness.

22:17

So when Aurora is saying that

22:20

she's black, she's spelling it

22:22

BLAKBLAK

22:24

Yeah. So taking out the seat.

22:27

Yeah. But she spells it out. She's spell it. She's

22:29

spelling it out. Right? I am BLAK

22:31

Yeah. Look,

22:31

I

22:32

know it's slightly the emoji

22:34

of the brain blowing off,

22:37

and this is a mind blown

22:39

moment. But BLAK

22:41

is going to be a term. We're going

22:43

to dig into a little bit more, which is why we've

22:45

spelt it out because if you're

22:47

listening to this, It'll just sound the same. Right.

22:50

Right. So let's get back to

22:52

Aurora. Aurora's father is

22:54

Jamaican, her mother is

22:56

indigenous, Aurora is lighter skinned,

22:58

so colorism is something she's been

23:00

thinking a lot about when it

23:02

comes to identifying as black.

23:04

I did a project a couple years ago

23:07

where a

23:08

group of African Australians

23:11

all

23:11

got together and looked at

23:14

this issue

23:14

of colorism and our own experiences

23:16

with it. We told our own

23:18

stories

23:18

and and within

23:21

it, it

23:21

was it was it was confronting,

23:23

and it

23:26

because coming from

23:29

my

23:29

experience growing up was that, you

23:32

know, I

23:32

was

23:34

trying to be

23:34

as close to whiteness as

23:37

That was still my experience. So

23:39

in

23:39

my mind, I was

23:42

black. I'd never known

23:44

any

23:44

other experience. but

23:47

coming

23:47

into this space with

23:50

people of that

23:50

have docket complexion than

23:53

me and have

23:54

them the

23:56

same experience

23:57

with perhaps

23:59

more harsh consequences.

24:03

And and also

24:04

experiences where me

24:06

as a mixed race person has

24:09

caused harm to

24:12

their to

24:12

their experience. I had to interrogate

24:15

what is my positioning of

24:17

privilege, what is my blackness.

24:20

The

24:22

expression of,

24:24

you know, our

24:26

loudness, our

24:27

joy, our need

24:30

to, you

24:31

know, dance seeing,

24:33

we

24:33

had to subdue that a lot in

24:36

the places that we moved through. So to be

24:38

able to look at other black

24:40

people the same kind of expression

24:42

that we experienced at home

24:45

was we had to

24:47

take what we could get, you

24:50

know,

24:50

Have you ever had conversations with your dad

24:52

around whether he calls himself,

24:54

BLA

24:55

CK, and whether that's a term

24:57

that he uses? my

25:00

dad, he always referred to

25:03

himself and and us

25:06

as black

25:07

Hebrew. So,

25:09

yeah, we were we always knew ourselves

25:11

in relation to the motherland

25:15

and the black was to

25:17

differentiate kind of the whitewashing of

25:20

of history. Yeah. He

25:23

he did often refer

25:25

to himself as black So

25:28

it's it's just

25:30

like understanding the way

25:33

that I am

25:35

positioned in the world perspective

25:37

from which I see the world is

25:41

been informed by

25:44

the black experience It's

25:46

the way I

25:50

dance,

25:52

sing, love,

25:55

love, Yeah.

25:58

It's

25:58

essence. You

26:00

know,

26:01

that blood conversation we'd had earlier

26:03

about blood quantum and how

26:05

much black we had in us. Mhmm.

26:07

This is why BLA

26:10

K sits well her because she is fairer

26:12

skinned. Even though

26:15

she obviously

26:15

has Jamaican,

26:17

which means she's very much

26:20

BLA CK. I hear

26:23

it. I hear it, Garora.

26:28

Yeah. So one

26:31

of the things that really landed with

26:33

me and what Aurora spoke about

26:35

was this idea of essence. And I

26:38

think she really nailed

26:40

that of this, that that's

26:42

the truest core of what.

26:45

Black

26:45

is for us.

26:48

And

26:48

and how we understand it

26:50

to be that, yes, it is about our enginearity,

26:52

but it is also this

26:55

being, this sense

26:56

of belonging this way,

26:58

and it's it's very hard

27:00

to put into English, I feel.

27:04

But I think someone who also has been sort

27:06

of capturing that essence of what it

27:08

is to be indigenous or to

27:10

be

27:10

BLA k. is Daniel

27:12

Browning. My name is Daniel Browning, and

27:14

I'm coming to your live from the Art Galleria South

27:16

Wales, which stands on gaticle

27:18

land. So Daniel is a bunch along journalist

27:20

and broadcaster, and he's covered

27:23

indigenous arts for many years.

27:25

So what did Daniel you

27:27

about this term BLAK

27:29

and

27:29

where it came from. Daniel

27:31

points out it's very much a recent

27:33

thing. because black

27:35

sounds no different to black.

27:37

Yeah. Now

27:40

there are other people who just think that's

27:42

just silly and ridiculous.

27:44

And like, why would you even do that?

27:46

Like But I think it's really important to

27:48

me. I mean, it's not something I

27:50

readily identify with, but

27:53

I don't I don't diminish

27:55

anyone else's right to use a term. He

27:57

told

27:57

me that this term was coined

27:59

at an

27:59

exhibition in the mid nineties by

28:02

indigenous visual artist, Destiny Deakin.

28:04

She wanted to drop this c

28:06

in BLA

28:07

CK because she'd

28:09

been called a black CUN

28:11

tea growing up. But I

28:13

love Destiny and I love her work and that she's

28:15

incredible and truly, like, one

28:17

of the most important I

28:19

mean, she's been she's been to the Havana B and Ali. Like, I mean, this woman

28:21

has exhibited her work all over the world.

28:24

She may even be known to some some people

28:27

listening. So I'm

28:29

taking nothing away from her. It's just not

28:31

a term that I use, but I'm

28:33

noticing more people using it.

28:35

And it seems

28:36

to be a lot of younger people gravitating

28:39

towards that word who don't know this history of

28:41

where it comes from and that

28:43

it's this you

28:43

know, to have something coined in the

28:46

indigenous visual arts space

28:48

that has then been taken by

28:50

the broader community of people who don't work

28:52

in that space or create in that

28:53

space. It's it's fascinating.

28:55

Right? It's a it's a

28:58

real transiteration,

29:00

like, how how does a concept,

29:02

a fall

29:03

in a word become

29:06

com an

29:07

idea that can can hold all

29:09

these other things. It's bizarre,

29:11

but it does. Because I

29:13

think these questions of identity are

29:16

they do assess some people. We

29:18

do we have been forced. We

29:22

have been forced. as blackfellas to

29:25

constantly ask ourselves who

29:27

we are, to

29:29

measure our own blood

29:31

quantum. to

29:32

explain our physical appearance

29:35

to we've

29:38

we've endured insults and

29:41

jives and jokes and

29:44

have been demoralized all

29:47

on the basis of who we are. The

29:49

things that we can't help. I

29:52

can't help my mom met my

29:54

dad. I can't

29:56

undo that little you know, I

29:58

can't undo that spark of creation. I

30:01

think, you know, we have been forced

30:03

to be involved in this

30:05

kind of I said, well,

30:07

I don't know what you wanna call it. This

30:09

kind of cultural production of

30:11

trying to find out who we are and

30:13

to find ourselves since they

30:17

got here. Like, we've got we had

30:19

different names. You know what they used to

30:21

call blackfellas, when captain Cook

30:23

was passing in the coastline, Indians.

30:27

Just what Columbus

30:30

did. Yeah. when

30:32

he got to America

30:35

Indians. You

30:36

know, they're cons they're way

30:38

they constructed the world was anything that wasn't

30:41

Europe essentially was the

30:43

Indians. So blacks had

30:45

to be Indians So we've

30:48

just had this constant, like,

30:52

adjustment, all these new terms.

30:56

Black

30:56

will stay though, you

30:58

know? Because it

31:01

it is easy

31:03

It

31:03

is quick. It is says

31:06

a lot. Not

31:07

about skin color.

31:09

I don't think.

31:12

but it is a very, very

31:14

quick term. If you got multi clan

31:16

heritage like most of us do and you know

31:18

it, you can't really

31:20

claim to just be one thing. So

31:22

black still works. I'm sorry.

31:24

It's just it's just it's

31:27

good. But

31:27

if we're talking about BLA

31:30

CK, BLAK, what do

31:32

you think that future is going forward? Do

31:34

you think we're still interrogating what

31:36

that is for us and what the use of our

31:38

words are that might be very different to other

31:40

places that have had a longer

31:42

colonial

31:42

history. I

31:45

think

31:45

you would struggle to

31:48

persuade me that any other ethnic

31:50

identity could be called black in

31:52

the same way as we can be

31:54

called black. you

31:56

can't just take a term because you

32:00

too came

32:00

to this country and decide that you

32:02

want that term. Well, no, you can't

32:05

have it. because we've

32:06

got a history with that term.

32:08

We own

32:09

that term.

32:12

And what we have to do, earnings,

32:14

associate the term from meaning

32:16

to having anything to do with

32:18

skin color.

32:19

Like, black is not just

32:22

a color. Or it's not even

32:22

a color. It's a shade. You

32:25

know, it's a it's an

32:27

identity. It's so much

32:29

more than a color.

32:32

And, yeah, I

32:34

don't I'm looking at my skin now,

32:36

and it's it's clearly

32:38

not black. but

32:40

only overseas have I actually

32:42

been confronted with complete,

32:45

like, people are

32:47

super fired. It's like,

32:49

you know, if I describe myself as a black

32:51

person to a white person,

32:53

probably even to another, you know, a

32:55

black person. They're like, what?

32:59

What?

32:59

Black.

33:00

See, it's just not it's

33:02

not skin color. Black does

33:05

it.

33:11

Sorriana,

33:11

after

33:14

hearing all of this, all the

33:16

voices that we heard today, hearing

33:18

me and Leila's annoying questions

33:20

to you and putting up

33:22

with us. What? You're like

33:25

Okay, Leila. Right. So

33:28

where where do you think you're

33:31

landing? What will you

33:32

call yourself? I

33:35

found myself

33:36

During this

33:37

journey of switching back

33:39

and forward, I understood what

33:41

Arnie Jacky was talking about,

33:43

when it comes to the use of the word

33:46

BLA CKI

33:49

got why Aurora talked

33:51

about BLA k as being

33:53

more inclusive for her iron

33:55

decide and why young

33:57

people are maybe gravitating towards

33:59

this word, but I also

34:01

understood Daniel's sort

34:03

of laying out of why

34:05

brown kind of is in a word that we

34:07

can use that, you know, it's come

34:09

to define multiculturalism

34:12

here. So I think I'll probably stay with the term.

34:14

Black, whether that's BLAK

34:16

or BLACK I'll use

34:20

both. But as

34:22

a Torill straightforward islander, I

34:24

think yeah. Torill straightforward

34:26

Islander just as well

34:28

fit to I am

34:30

too, and Regardless of whether most Australians know where

34:32

it is or can spell it

34:34

correctly. So you're sticking

34:38

to black. I'm always

34:40

bettering

34:41

black.

34:43

Yay,

34:46

Diana. Okay. We hear you. We hear you.

34:48

And

34:49

that's the stoop.

34:51

That is

34:54

the stoop. The stoop is

34:56

a proud member of radiotopia from PRX.

34:58

The stoop family includes producer,

35:02

Natalie Barrett, Engineered Gabe Graeban, Art by Nina media

35:04

by Summer Williams. And the

35:06

special thanks, a big thanks

35:11

to Australian journalist, Rihanna

35:15

Patrick. And thanks to

35:17

the NPR StoryLab.

35:18

Good day. No.

35:21

Oh, man. No.

35:24

Okay. Goodbye, man. Goodbye.

35:26

Ciao, ciao.

35:31

That was

35:31

an episode from The Stoop, a podcast

35:34

from Radio Topia hosted by Lila Day

35:36

at Hana Baba. This episode is called

35:38

Reclaiming Black in Australia. can more

35:40

episodes from the stoop on the podcast

35:42

platform of your choice. Of course, you are listening

35:44

to Rough Translation, which will be back

35:46

with more episodes very soon, and

35:48

I promise it will be worth the

35:50

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35:54

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35:56

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