0:02

Hi everyone . It's me , Sandy

0:04

Kruse of .

0:08

For years now , I've

0:10

been bringing to you conversations

0:12

about wellness from

0:14

experts from all over

0:17

the world . Whether it be

0:19

suggestions in how you can age

0:21

better , biohacking

0:24

, alternative wellness , these

0:26

are conversations to

0:28

help you live your

0:31

best life . I want to

0:33

live a long , healthy

0:35

and vibrant life

0:37

, never mind all those

0:39

stigmas that , as we

0:41

reach midlife and beyond , we're

0:44

just going to shrivel up and die with

0:46

some horrible disease . Always

0:49

remember balanced living

0:52

works . I really

0:55

look forward to this season . Hi

0:59

everyone , welcome to Sandy Can , nutrition

1:02

, health and Lifestyle Queen . Today

1:05

I have a very special guest , dr

1:08

Seema Parmar . She

1:10

is the Director of Health Intelligence

1:12

and Insights Director

1:14

for Visory Services at

1:16

Cleveland Clinic , canada , and

1:19

we are going to talk all

1:21

about mental health

1:24

. It's such

1:26

an important episode , everyone

1:29

, especially this time of year

1:31

. I don't think I know anyone

1:33

who doesn't experience a little

1:35

bit of the January February

1:37

blues laws , whatever

1:40

you want to call it . If you live in the

1:42

climate that I live in , we have very little

1:44

sunshine , and a lot of that has

1:46

to do with it as well . So

1:49

stay tuned , check out the

1:51

show notes , because all the information

1:53

that you're going to want is going to be in

1:55

the show notes . Please

1:58

do share this episode

2:00

with anyone who you

2:02

feel might benefit . Follow

2:06

me on all of my social

2:09

media channels . I'm

2:11

going to be doing a little

2:13

more on Rumble . I'm on YouTube

2:15

. I am on Instagram

2:17

, tiktok , facebook

2:19

you can find me anywhere

2:22

. I'm also currently

2:24

writing a book . This

2:27

is a little bit of an arduous task , but

2:30

it is a passion project

2:32

and it will really align

2:34

with my podcast

2:37

, because I'm

2:39

trying to bridge the gap between

2:42

science and soul . Yes , a

2:44

lot of my training is about the

2:46

science , but after

2:48

all these years , I've come to realize

2:50

that if you follow only the science

2:53

, you're really missing

2:55

an integral part

2:57

to your wellness , and

3:00

this book will outline

3:03

a lot of the esoteric

3:06

practices that I really

3:08

believe in , I engage in and

3:11

, of course , it's not going to be everything

3:13

for everyone , because I

3:16

focus on bio-individuality

3:18

. I'm also going to put important

3:21

tests that everyone must have done

3:24

and see . That's where the science comes

3:26

in . Now , remember , it is going to

3:28

be written from a woman

3:31

, midlife woman's perspective

3:33

, so some of it may not be applicable

3:35

, but a lot of it is

3:37

really just to help you enhance

3:40

your life and

3:43

be proactive with

3:45

your health and , of course , age

3:48

better . So look out

3:50

for it . I'm also creating

3:53

a course Well , I'm calling

3:55

it a course . It's actually not a course , it's more

3:57

of a master class the

3:59

essential thyroid guide . Why

4:02

? Because thyroid is my specialty . And

4:05

listen people , I know I'm

4:08

not a doctor , I do not have an MD

4:10

, but I can tell you that

4:12

I probably know more about

4:14

thyroid wellness and

4:16

thyroid health than most

4:19

general physicians

4:21

out there . I know that's the

4:23

sad truth , but

4:25

it is the truth , and I had

4:27

to fumble through a lot of this because

4:30

I don't have a thyroid , and

4:33

so I've learned a lot . I've

4:35

also , of course , taken certifications

4:38

in endocrinology and

4:40

thyroid , so

4:42

there's that as well . So

4:45

look out for these things . I'm really

4:48

trying to provide

4:50

more . Hmm

4:52

, okay , how about this Less

4:54

transient content

4:56

? One of them is

4:59

my podcast . My podcast

5:01

does not end . I still get

5:03

downloads from old episodes

5:05

. I mean , I think the one about

5:08

fasting is still my

5:10

highest downloaded podcast

5:12

episode yet , and that was , I think , two

5:15

years ago now . So

5:18

you know I'm looking

5:20

to create content that's

5:22

lasting . A book is one

5:24

, my course is another . Anyway

5:27

, enough rambling . Definitely

5:29

go and rate

5:32

and review my podcast . It's

5:34

so easy , you guys and

5:36

it helps me to get amazing

5:39

guests each and every week , like

5:41

Dr Seema . She's just

5:43

such a lovely and knowledgeable

5:45

person . I loved my conversation

5:48

with her . But if you go to Apple

5:50

podcasts , if you use Apple podcasts , I

5:52

think you can rate in Spotify as well

5:54

. But if you go to Apple search

5:57

Sandy K Nutrition , my podcast

5:59

will be there . Hit the show

6:01

Sandy K Nutrition , scroll

6:03

down . It'll say write a review

6:05

, provide me with a few kind

6:07

words and five stars , and

6:10

that is going to give back

6:12

to me for this content

6:14

that I provide to you , for you

6:17

, each and every week . And

6:19

now let's cut on through to this amazing

6:22

interview with Dr Seema

6:24

all about mental

6:27

health . Hi

6:29

everyone , welcome to Sandy K Nutrition

6:31

Health and Lifestyle Queen . Today

6:33

with me I have Dr

6:36

Seema Parmar . Parmar

6:38

, did I pronounce it right ? Parmar .

6:40

It's very phonetic .

6:42

Okay , good , good , good . Dr

6:44

Parmar holds a PhD

6:47

from the Johns Hopkins

6:49

Bloomberg School of Public Health

6:51

and is a leader with

6:54

Cleveland Clinic Canada's

6:56

advisory services , a

6:58

team of physicians , wellness

7:00

experts and strategy

7:02

consultants who help organizations

7:05

improve employee

7:07

health and manage organizational

7:10

risk . Seema

7:12

, is it okay if I call you Seema ? Is that okay

7:14

? You should call me Seema . Okay , good , good . We

7:18

are going to talk about

7:21

mental health . I

7:23

understand this is a huge topic

7:26

. We're going to try and do

7:28

this in about an hour and

7:30

make it really just relatable

7:33

content . I want to note at

7:35

the beginning that most of you

7:37

know my podcast is strictly

7:39

for educational purposes only

7:41

. You must see your

7:43

own practitioner . If

7:46

this is something that we talk about

7:48

, that you need to investigate . This is not

7:50

medical advice . I definitely

7:53

wanted to preface this conversation

7:55

with this little disclaimer . I

7:58

want to welcome you , seema . I

8:00

am so happy to have you . We chatted

8:02

a few times now and

8:05

I'm really excited for this talk

8:07

.

8:09

Me too . It's been great getting to

8:11

know you , and I'm so excited to talk to your listeners

8:13

as well .

8:15

Give us a little bit of a background of your

8:17

history , how you got into

8:19

this field of health and

8:21

medicine .

8:23

Sure , I guess I'll

8:25

start with talking a bit about public health . That really

8:27

is my passion . But I think

8:29

for a lot of people , when they think of public health

8:32

, they think of vaccines , outbreaks

8:34

, and that's the realm of public

8:36

health . But it's really much broader . It

8:39

includes health of populations , and

8:41

some of it is about disease prevention

8:43

and some of it is just about keeping us well . For

8:46

me , it's not that . I think I've been

8:48

in public health for about 20 years , I don't think

8:51

when I was a teenager I really knew what

8:53

it was or that it was

8:55

a thing that I wanted to do , but there's a few things

8:57

about it that I think have been

8:59

the reason I've been drawn to it . They're

9:02

very cordial . Who I am , one

9:05

is learning and just

9:08

growing . I think our world changes

9:10

so much and so quickly . For

9:13

me , just being able to learn and

9:15

understand things that I don't understand

9:17

has always been a big draw . A lot

9:20

of public health is about understanding people

9:22

and understanding behavior . That's

9:24

always been interesting to me . The

9:27

other thing that really has drawn me

9:29

, I think , to things in this world is when you're

9:31

surrounded by really good , kind

9:33

and really inspiring people . A lot

9:35

of folks at public health are those kinds of people that

9:38

really want to have change . For

9:40

me , there's also a big piece about

9:42

just always wanting to do something that

9:45

is , helping people who are going through hard

9:47

times . I think for me , a

9:49

lot of that came from our own family

9:51

story . My parents came as

9:53

immigrants . I was six . I had two older

9:55

brothers . Both of my parents are brilliant

9:58

and educated and were very successful

10:00

. Then we got to Canada and a

10:02

lot of new immigrants started to find

10:04

jobs , worked a bit of wage , went back

10:07

to school and things were really

10:09

tough . But actually

10:11

I think for me I had a wonderful childhood

10:13

. A lot of that had to do with

10:16

having , I think , a very stable and happy

10:19

family , but also because we

10:21

had a fantastic community of support . I

10:23

had great teachers . I had a lot

10:25

of people who were around . It

10:28

just was always in me that this is how the world

10:30

should be . We should always be helping , and

10:32

a lot of what we do in public health is around

10:35

that . In

10:37

terms of my career and positions

10:39

, I think that community piece has really

10:42

stayed true and that's

10:44

what's kept me in the field my

10:46

first role and I've worn a few

10:48

different hats . Sandy , we've talked about this . I

10:51

had a winding path , but my first role

10:53

was working in an elementary school

10:55

in Northern Manhattan post-911

10:59

, working in a health program that was

11:01

based in an elementary school , with this

11:03

pediatrician and social worker

11:06

who were well ahead of their times , I think in

11:08

2001, . We were talking about yoga and

11:10

meditation for teachers and we were talking

11:12

about obesity in children . That's

11:15

amazing Things that now we talk about , right , yeah

11:17

, but it was kind of new

11:19

and wacky and wild back then , which

11:21

is so fun to think about now just

11:23

how much it's come aboard . And

11:27

it was , I think , a great experience

11:29

for me to be in this community that

11:31

was really struggling . There was a lot of violence in

11:33

homes , there was a lot of loss post-911

11:36

, but it was a community that really rallied together

11:38

with dancing , with food , with

11:40

music , and it really shaped

11:42

and I worked with a powerhouse

11:45

of teachers and principals

11:48

and docs who were really there trying

11:50

to support these kids . But I

11:52

think a lot of what I saw there was

11:54

people trying to work through a

11:56

system that really wasn't created to support

11:58

them , and that's yeah

12:01

, and I think a lot of us can kind of see

12:03

that now , doing our day-to-day

12:06

right , the interactions

12:08

between systems and what we end up doing

12:10

. And so that's what led

12:12

me to do my PhD work and I

12:15

really wanted to understand system change . And

12:17

I had another kind of really

12:19

fortunate experience I worked with immigrant refugee

12:21

women to understand

12:23

their interactions with the health system

12:25

and what really came out of

12:27

that was that concept of community . Again , it

12:29

was actually more than the kind

12:32

of whether or not they were getting the screenings they

12:34

needed . It was do they have social support

12:36

, people who can come with them to appointments

12:39

, help them with rides , help them with language

12:41

? And then I got to the end of my PhD

12:43

and there were all

12:46

of a sudden a whole bunch of government cuts to

12:48

a lot of programs that I thought were really

12:50

valued and that hit me pretty

12:52

hard . And a friend of mine

12:54

had said why don't you try management consulting

12:56

? And I kind of thought what are you talking

12:59

about ? Like that does not sound like me

13:01

at all . But she

13:03

introduced me to her partner

13:05

and some folks who were working with a big

13:07

firm and they were doing a lot of work in health

13:09

care and so I moved over to consulting

13:11

and this idea here was okay

13:14

, I've done the academics , I've been in the community

13:16

, but I just don't know how decisions are made , like

13:18

how do people make decisions at the system level

13:20

? And they'll spend

13:23

about eight years there in this management

13:26

consulting field really working with some decision

13:28

makers and a lot of really good people who are trying

13:30

to do good , but wrestling with

13:32

the challenges of how do you think about cost

13:35

, how do you think about quality , all of those pieces

13:37

, and stayed

13:41

there . And then when the pandemic

13:43

hit , it was really interesting because

13:45

all of a sudden the stakeholder shifted . Who

13:47

was making decisions , who had influence

13:50

? And employers became a

13:52

really big stakeholder and

13:54

they had not really shown up in the field of public

13:56

health before . And so that's actually when

13:58

I joined Cleveland Clinic , because they were doing these

14:00

really interesting pieces with some big

14:02

organizations that have a lot of influence

14:05

on communities

14:08

, on their employees , and so that's a lot

14:10

of the work that we do now and

14:12

I kind of say it's flipped a bit from

14:15

business of health to the health of business

14:17

, and that's a little

14:19

bit of how I got to where I am right now .

14:21

Oh , interesting . Well , you've had a

14:23

lot of exposure and you know , one of the things that

14:25

actually really kind of I

14:27

want to pull out of that conversation is

14:29

how you're always learning . You're

14:32

always changing your

14:35

, I guess , fluid in your

14:37

role , Would you agree

14:39

?

14:40

Oh , totally , I think that's actually what excites

14:42

me , yeah , but it's

14:45

academic and people right , you're always just

14:47

learning . I love that .

14:48

I think that's key here . When you're talking

14:50

about health care

14:52

whether it's preventative

14:55

or actually caring

14:58

once you're sick , once somebody's

15:00

taking care of you we

15:02

need to constantly be up on the changes

15:04

, because things are always changing

15:07

. And with COVID we

15:09

saw a massive change

15:12

and you and I kind of touched on this in

15:14

mental health . But

15:17

when you talked about it with me earlier

15:19

you had kind of hinted

15:21

that it was always there . It's

15:23

just that COVID might have been

15:25

that whole . It

15:28

just kind of all came to

15:30

fruition at COVID , but it was

15:33

always there , right ? So maybe

15:35

first touch on

15:37

what is mental health ? What

15:39

does mental health mean

15:41

?

15:43

And I'll pick up on the story Sandy

15:45

, because it's so true . Mental health has always

15:47

been there , but I will say , even for me and

15:50

in my experience , it was always

15:52

something someone else did . Other

15:55

people had mental health concerns

15:57

. Other people were experts in

15:59

mental health either . When I was in

16:01

the elementary school , it was the social workers

16:03

, the counselors . When I was doing my PhD

16:06

, it was a whole other department that was mental

16:08

health , and it was only when the

16:10

pandemic hit that I started really

16:12

internalizing that actually

16:14

, this is about all of us and

16:16

for me it was probably the same thing a lot of you

16:19

went through . It was you're

16:21

trying to work , you have kids at home , you have

16:23

elderly parents , you're in this world

16:25

of uncertainty . All of a sudden , you feel like you

16:27

don't have control over things that you had a lot

16:29

of control of , and I

16:31

started recognizing that I wasn't myself

16:33

anymore . Either I was exhausted

16:36

and I still don't

16:38

think I put my finger on it until I started

16:40

actually studying and learning and

16:42

working with mental health experts and

16:44

it became really important , I

16:47

think , to talk about the continuum which

16:50

is mental health . So mental health

16:52

is for all of us and it is a continuum

16:54

that includes everything . I

16:56

think on the one side , we really , when

16:58

we talk about mental health , we also

17:01

want to talk about all the things that make us healthy

17:03

, all the things that make us happy and comfortable

17:05

in our relationships and help us be our

17:07

best . And then , as we start kind

17:09

of shifting through this continuum , we go through

17:12

this space that we call reacting

17:14

space , and this is when you start

17:16

seeing changes in yourself , changes

17:18

in your attitude , changes in your

17:20

energy , more negative

17:22

feelings , and I

17:24

think what's interesting is that this healthy

17:27

reacting faces

17:29

. They are things that all of us can go through . Some

17:32

days you're healthy , sometimes you're healthy

17:34

, some hours you're like that Absolutely Authentic

17:37

shift . Right , yeah , that's okay

17:39

, that is normal . But

17:41

as we start shifting down the continuum

17:43

and you start looking at the space around

17:45

injuries and now we've talked about healthy , we're talking

17:48

about reacting , now we're talking about injury

17:50

this is

17:52

when you start seeing that

17:54

your day-to-day functioning is

17:57

being impaired . It's not just

17:59

these kind of things that you feel and you

18:01

keep going . All of a sudden , it's much harder to keep

18:03

going , maybe it's harder to get up in the morning

18:05

, maybe your relationships are starting to suffer

18:07

, and at this point

18:09

, this is when you might start

18:11

thinking about seeking help , but for a lot of

18:13

us we don't really recognize when that point

18:16

happens . But the piece that's here

18:18

is is your day-to-day start functioning

18:20

, being affected , and then , as

18:23

we start advancing down to the other end

18:25

of the continuum , is when we actually start talking

18:27

about illness right , and so illness

18:29

can be anything that has a diagnosis

18:32

with it . It's also when we start talking about

18:34

things like suicidality

18:37

or substance use or some of

18:39

these other pieces In

18:41

the injured and illness space is really

18:43

when we want folks to start reaching out for professional

18:46

health . This is when you can't figure

18:49

out on your own , how do you get back

18:51

to the other side of continuum

18:53

? And so I think it's really

18:55

important to know that mental

18:57

health encompasses all of that

18:59

, and all of us can be on any

19:02

part of that continuum at any point

19:04

in our lives . I think

19:06

it's also to know that what

19:09

it looks like for you will

19:11

be very different than what it looks like for

19:13

me , maybe , right , based

19:15

on our biology , based on our environment , based

19:18

on our experiences , based on our parents and grandparents

19:20

experiences . And so

19:22

for me , when I start

19:25

shifting from healthy and reacting

19:27

you know , I know I'm irritable

19:29

, right ? I know

19:32

I don't

19:34

want to be showing up for as many

19:36

things socially , as maybe

19:39

you know I was in the past

19:41

, right . For other people

19:43

it might be . I'm not irritable , I'm just not

19:45

like , I'm just disinterested . I started

19:47

checking out , right . So each of us might

19:49

look very different during this . So I think

19:51

that's important . It's a continuum , it applies

19:53

to all of us , but it looks different for

19:56

each of us .

19:59

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20:02

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20:04

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20:06

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20:15

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20:22

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20:34

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20:37

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20:39

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20:41

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acids for yourself . Can

22:01

I ask you then ? So some of the signs

22:03

you mentioned a couple would be

22:05

might be , again

22:08

, everybody's individual and

22:10

I love that you say that , because I'm

22:12

a big believer in

22:14

bio individuality . We can't

22:16

paint everyone with the same brush . So

22:19

I guess you could say , for

22:21

somebody who is normally very

22:24

outgoing and then all

22:26

of a sudden becomes very introverted

22:29

, that might be one sign

22:31

for someone .

22:33

When you start seeing that change

22:35

, that shift , I'd say shift

22:37

in your attitudes , shift

22:39

in your energy behaviors and

22:41

shifts in your relationships . Those are a few

22:44

kind of axes that you could start

22:46

thinking about .

22:47

Okay , okay .

22:49

We'll get to sleep , but that's also a good

22:52

signal . Often , sleep is huge , we

22:54

start seeing changes in

22:56

our sleep patterns , like , are we sleeping

22:58

through the night and , you know , maybe

23:00

it's just one night for most of us ? All of us have kind

23:03

of rough nights , that when it's the stained

23:05

and it's much harder , or you're

23:07

kind of chronic insomnia . These are things

23:09

to be really concerned about .

23:11

And you know , I have to note this because a lot of

23:13

my listeners are women who are

23:15

even menopausal . So

23:17

it's interesting the connection

23:19

there because a lot of times menopausal

23:22

women are diagnosed

23:24

with depression . They have

23:27

those sleep disturbances . They're

23:29

not themselves and

23:32

one of the physicians I

23:34

interviewed who

23:36

is an expert he's

23:38

an OBGYN in the US A

23:40

lot of physicians will

23:43

diagnose menopausal women with depression

23:45

. It is an approved drug

23:47

for menopause

23:49

instead of

23:51

, you know , going the HRT route

23:53

. So it's interesting . I just want to make

23:55

that connection because a lot of those symptoms

23:58

of mental wellness or mental

24:00

health could coincide with

24:02

big changes physiologically

24:05

for our women especially .

24:08

Absolutely , and I said

24:10

it , different differs kind of based on our

24:12

experience with an environment , but also

24:14

our biology , because we know

24:16

hormone fluctuations in women

24:18

. And then why I think that's important

24:21

is because I think often when we have

24:23

these shift , sometimes we attribute

24:25

it to ourselves like oh , I

24:27

feel guilty that I was being irritable or

24:29

I was short and made

24:31

this comment , that there are things going on

24:33

that are actually not really within our

24:35

control . Yes , that I also

24:38

want to kind of give us permission and space to

24:40

say that's okay and that happens .

24:42

I love that you said that you know why

24:44

? Because , as somebody

24:46

who had

24:48

thyroid disease , oh

24:51

my God see , I could actually even

24:53

get teary-eyed thinking about it . Because

24:56

also , if

24:58

you have something physically

25:00

not working in your body , you

25:03

know , like severe hyperthyroidism

25:05

, well , comes with that anxiety

25:07

. So you know there are palpitations

25:09

being short , perhaps

25:12

even a bad temper or

25:14

hypothyroidism . You can't get

25:16

off the couch , depression , right

25:18

. So I think it's important to

25:20

work with your doctor to

25:23

rule out other things .

25:26

Yeah , absolutely , and so that continuum

25:28

piece , part of why we talked about it is there's one

25:30

side where I think it's important

25:32

for us to all know the things that

25:35

can help us with coping , restoring

25:37

, getting back to ourselves , and

25:39

it could . That could also look different , and

25:41

for me , I have a range of things sometimes

25:44

as I actually want to be around people , I

25:46

want to be around loved ones . I , you

25:48

know , I want movie night with the kids . Other times

25:50

it's like I want to be on my own , I want

25:52

to sleep . Maybe I want to watch

25:55

a really sad movie and cry . Yeah

25:57

, we have a set of things

25:59

that can help us navigate that healthy reacting

26:01

. When we start getting to the other

26:04

side , those tools aren't enough

26:06

and that's when it's helpful to

26:08

seek support right , and some of it might

26:11

be some of these other treatments , right , that help

26:13

with the physiological pieces , and some

26:15

of it might be actually more on the mental health

26:17

side . Right and the support there

26:19

.

26:20

So I guess what you're saying there is

26:22

, you know , kind of rule out

26:25

, with work with

26:27

your doctor to rule out other possibilities

26:30

. But then what

26:32

can happen obviously

26:34

is either those

26:36

things aren't ruled out or

26:38

things just get worse and you

26:40

need to seek help . I

26:44

want to ask you do you know I'm

26:46

not sure if you'd know this off by offhand

26:48

do you know if

26:50

the suicide rate went up

26:53

after COVID ?

26:56

So let's

26:58

talk about this . Yeah , this is a really important

27:01

piece , I agree , and

27:03

I think we have in some sense thought

27:06

that we really opened up the conversations

27:08

around mental health , and that's great , but there's

27:10

some things that I think are still

27:12

really hard to talk about , and

27:15

suicide is one of those , yes , and

27:18

is one of the ones where often there's this feeling of

27:20

what could we have done before

27:22

, right ? So

27:24

, in terms of rates , you

27:26

know , if we look from with Canada , the US , we

27:28

see slight different trends in the US

27:31

. Actually , 2022 get

27:33

record levels of deaths by suicide

27:36

, more than any previous year , and

27:39

a couple of things is one

27:41

, when we look at men , the

27:44

number of deaths are four times

27:47

the number of deaths and women , however , women

27:49

do have a much higher

27:51

rate of suicide attempts , right . So

27:53

there's a piece there , okay . The

27:56

other thing that you know

27:58

is a trend to watch is that

28:00

it's also an older adults

28:02

now , so we're seeing rising rates in

28:05

elderly as well . So the highest

28:07

rate of suicide in the US was actually in

28:09

those 75 and over .

28:10

Wow , I didn't know

28:12

that .

28:14

And I think it's just showing that across

28:16

the spectrum there's different things people are

28:18

dealing with that maybe we need to consider

28:21

the . In

28:23

Canada it's been different

28:25

in the sense that we didn't see a spike

28:27

in suicides , but we have

28:29

seen impacts in other places . So

28:31

, for example , we've seen the

28:34

rate of deaths due to unintentional injuries

28:36

, which includes suicides , but it also

28:38

includes things like overdoses , and

28:42

that has gone off Right , and

28:44

so there's a . There's a piece around

28:46

, not just where people are

28:48

mentally and whether or not they're able to get the support

28:51

they need , but what are the types of coping

28:53

mechanisms people are using

28:55

when they're not supported with

28:58

health , and with professional health or

29:00

social community support .

29:03

So Canada saw a rise

29:05

in addictions and deaths

29:07

as a result of overdosing

29:10

.

29:12

Yeah , so and the

29:14

overdosing you know across

29:16

we have the opioid crisis of those pieces

29:18

. But it's sort of open this idea that

29:20

Drug

29:24

substance use is more pervasive

29:26

now and

29:28

not always well managed and

29:31

there's much higher risk in the types

29:33

of substance , substances people are using

29:36

. And these

29:38

are all things I think from the public health side

29:40

of me are things that you

29:42

know they're preventable . There's something

29:44

the world we can't prevent , but there's something for

29:46

world we can if we can equip people

29:48

with the right information and supports Right .

29:52

Yeah , because you know I actually talk about that a lot

29:54

on my platform is numbing Right

29:58

. So I mean , would you

30:00

agree that that's an obvious cause

30:03

for a lot of these substance

30:05

abuse like alcohol ? Did

30:08

we see a rise in that , just

30:10

even overall usage ? You know there

30:12

and see my , you know it's

30:15

interesting because you see , on

30:17

Tik Tok , this is when it kind

30:19

of started , like this trend of

30:22

let's just go and you

30:24

know down a bottle of wine and

30:26

you know it's . It's almost

30:28

like that became normal

30:31

. Yeah , maybe it was

30:33

always happening , I don't know , but it's like

30:35

a big trend , like you would even see

30:38

, people would

30:40

make memes about it and Girls

30:42

Night , and it was all middle aged women

30:45

, yeah

30:47

Right .

30:48

So Recently

30:50

, canada has put forth revised

30:53

guidelines for alcohol

30:55

consumption , and a lot of it was

30:57

anchored in looking at the literature

31:00

over the past several years to

31:02

see what's out there and actually put

31:04

forth recommendations on it

31:07

. I think the thing that has been interesting

31:09

is part of it has been

31:11

something like what you just said the use

31:13

of alcohol as a coping mechanism

31:15

versus the use of alcohol as a social

31:18

Part of

31:20

it , which then means you're starting to hear more

31:22

daily drinking .

31:24

Yes .

31:24

Yes , and some of those pieces right

31:27

, rather than just social drinking . But it's

31:29

also just caused , I think , a lot of us , whether

31:31

it's individually in our social circles , whether it's

31:33

with our , the organizations

31:35

and clients that we work with , to revise

31:38

how we talked about alcohol

31:40

, how we introduced it into

31:42

social activities or social functions

31:45

and some of those pieces , and

31:48

it was like it's when you start seeing

31:50

substances being used as a coping

31:52

mechanism , you

31:55

know , to deal with underlying

31:57

issues that require other supports

31:59

. We do want to care , we do want to be thoughtful

32:02

about that right , and so I think

32:04

, on the substance use side , there's lots of reasons

32:06

why we're seeing more

32:09

kind of toxic substances

32:11

and why they're leading to death and

32:13

, the same thing , a lot

32:16

of reasons are a combination of people's environments

32:18

, that experiences and how they react and all

32:21

of those pieces that are there . But there is

32:23

something that I think we need to talk about

32:25

, which is what are the tools people

32:27

are using and

32:29

are they healthy

32:31

? Are they beneficial ? Are they really helping

32:33

you get back to the other , you

32:35

know , to the healthy , reacting

32:37

side of the continuum , versus

32:40

to the injured , ill side of the continuum

32:42

?

32:43

I actually recorded a podcast about this

32:45

not long ago , just specifically

32:48

for middle aged women . Because

32:50

, you know , there's a big

32:52

difference and I love that you said

32:55

that . You made it very clear

32:57

whereby , you know , I've

33:00

always personally been

33:02

about balance , but I

33:04

understand that we are not

33:06

all the same and sometimes

33:08

balance is difficult

33:11

to achieve for

33:13

some people in certain areas and

33:15

there's many reasons for that . But if you look

33:17

, even if you look back , well

33:19

, when we were living during COVID

33:22

times , that was not balanced , so

33:24

it was right

33:26

. So if you think about

33:29

that , it's like all

33:31

of that blew up because

33:33

people were at home and they're like what

33:35

am I going to do ? I'm sitting here working with my

33:37

husband over there and my kids are doing

33:39

school work in that corner , and so

33:42

it was a really weird time

33:44

for everybody .

33:47

And you start thinking about the okay , what are the

33:49

little treats I can do for myself , what are the

33:51

little things I can do ? And

33:53

then I think now we're starting to say , okay , let's

33:55

revisit what we think those treats are , yes

33:57

, and how often

33:59

we go to go towards those

34:02

treats , because some of that treating became

34:04

habit , right

34:06

, and some of these things you don't see in the immediate

34:08

, that you see in the long run . And

34:10

so really creating that awareness and

34:13

being a tune to why

34:16

and for what reason yeah

34:19

, you know you might

34:22

be leaning towards substances . This is not

34:24

an all or done thing by any means , just

34:26

for each person to think about that .

34:28

Each person absolutely , Because I personally

34:31

, I use my excuse , not

34:33

my excuse , my , my own personal

34:35

example of me being

34:37

an ex smoker . I

34:41

am not able to

34:43

dabble in

34:45

smoking . Back

34:47

then , when I used to smoke , I

34:49

loved it and I

34:51

saw that it was a coping

34:53

mechanism for me . So I

34:55

get stressed out about this at work . I go

34:57

have a cigarette , I get straight right . So

35:00

it was 100% a coping mechanism

35:02

and it was an addiction . So

35:04

I had to break it personally . So this is why

35:07

I like that . You say everybody's different

35:09

and everyone

35:11

is a unique situation as

35:14

it relates to any substance . Like

35:16

I can easily say Sema , I'm

35:19

addicted to my one coffee every morning

35:21

. Is it harming me ? Is it harming

35:23

my relationships ? Is it in

35:25

balance ? Is it a coping

35:27

mechanism ? Not

35:30

really , maybe a little bit . But do you see what

35:32

I'm saying ?

35:33

So , weighing it , and

35:36

the questions you just asked

35:38

yourself are that point when we say

35:40

do you need extra , do you need to be seeking

35:42

support ?

35:43

There you go .

35:43

When it starts impair , it starts impairing

35:46

your functioning and your relationships

35:48

. So when some of these habits

35:51

start making it harder to get up in the morning

35:53

, harder to show up and work , harder to be yourself

35:55

, harder to keep

35:58

those relationships that you really

36:00

value , that's

36:02

when we want to be thinking about are we actually

36:04

getting the support we need ?

36:07

I have a question and I'm not sure

36:10

if what you think of this do

36:12

you think that some people might

36:14

have experienced some sort of

36:16

PTSD from COVID

36:19

?

36:21

So maybe we'll change that , because

36:24

PTSD has them very

36:26

unique and let's just talk

36:28

about grief or loss , right

36:30

?

36:31

Okay , what about trauma ?

36:35

I think trauma has its own

36:37

dimensions as well . Okay , but the reason

36:39

I say grief and this was really

36:41

interesting to me , how we position this

36:43

is because grief isn't

36:45

often we think about grief as

36:47

a loss of a loved one , but grief

36:49

occurs for many , many reasons

36:52

. So there is grief that your child

36:54

did not have the experiences you hoped

36:56

that they would have had .

36:57

Interesting .

36:58

Grief because the

37:01

way things used to be will never

37:03

be that way again . There

37:05

is grief because maybe you're a different person

37:07

now than you were three years ago and

37:10

so I think there has been a lot of grief

37:12

and a lot of loss that

37:15

has happened , that we all

37:17

haven't necessarily tapped into

37:19

, that we might be experiencing

37:22

and how that's impacting how

37:25

we show up today . I

37:28

think that we're seeing that even in

37:30

clients with kind of shifts

37:32

in working structures that you also

37:34

see shift in teams . The

37:36

people who used to work maybe

37:38

before you'd come every day and you've had that person

37:40

that was sitting next to you and now you

37:43

don't have that team dynamic . So there's a

37:45

lot of . I like using

37:47

the concept of grief and loss in some

37:49

senses , because I think there is some part

37:51

of us that we've all kind of gone

37:53

through during the pandemic where there's been some

37:56

grief , been some loss , trauma

37:58

. I think I want to be careful for just

38:00

because there are a lot of people who have different

38:03

experiences of trauma and I really

38:05

want to dilute

38:07

that experience and

38:10

what those needs might be .

38:12

That makes sense and I

38:14

can speak from personal experience

38:17

, hearing the

38:19

word trauma right

38:21

, the word trauma saying

38:23

oh my gosh , I'm hearing this

38:25

and it sounds like it's going to happen

38:27

again . It's like trauma and fear

38:29

. Is this going to happen again ? Is this going to happen

38:32

again ? And it's almost like that fear

38:34

that it's going to happen again

38:36

, that we're going to be locked down , that there's

38:38

going to be another pandemic , and that

38:41

raises , I'd

38:45

say , a lot of fear in a lot of people

38:47

. Whether you had major

38:49

issues from the lockdowns

38:52

or whatever , it's going to raise that

38:54

fear .

38:57

I think it's the fear , but it's also

38:59

a

39:01

sense of a lack of control . I think for

39:04

a lot of people and many of us , you

39:06

could put things in , you did a lot of things

39:08

and you were able to shape a lot of pieces of your life

39:10

and then all of a sudden , this thing happened

39:12

and it wasn't really

39:15

in your control and all of a sudden there

39:17

wasn't that much even in your life that

39:19

you could control . And so I think going forward

39:22

, what's happened for a lot of us is you have that

39:24

. It's a fear , but it's also a bit of

39:26

a hesitancy of what's next

39:28

. What's that uncertainty that's coming ? How

39:30

do we actually move forward if we

39:32

don't know what's going to be happening in the future and

39:34

if what we do today , how that might manifest

39:37

in the future , right , so

39:39

there's a lot of emotions that I think the

39:42

pandemic evoked for many people

39:44

and I think we're still processing and learning from

39:47

a lot of that .

39:48

Do you think that our as

39:51

a society , our mental

39:53

health has worsened since

39:55

the pandemic , or do you think that maybe

39:58

we're just talking about it more ?

39:59

I think that , and we kind

40:02

of touched on this before

40:04

. So as a society

40:06

, there were a lot of

40:09

things happening related to mental

40:11

health even before the pandemic . I

40:13

think the pandemic and

40:15

what I mean by that is that

40:17

any

40:20

of these experiences whether it had

40:22

been in stress from

40:24

work or loss

40:26

of loved one or any of these

40:29

people that we've talked about all of those things

40:31

were still there before

40:33

. I think the pandemic

40:35

really opened up conversations

40:37

and awareness around it . I think

40:39

seeing whether it was a celebrity

40:42

or a leader stepped forward and started

40:44

talking about their mental health was

40:47

really important . It helps people

40:49

feel a bit more normalized

40:52

in it to say that yes

40:54

, it's okay for all of us to struggle

40:56

. I think there's still a lot of

40:58

things , like we said before , that we're not talking

41:00

about . I think

41:02

it's still very difficult to talk about bipolar

41:06

disorder or

41:08

schizophrenia . I think it's still really hard

41:10

to talk about suicide . I think it's still really

41:12

hard to talk about substance use . So I think

41:14

it's opened up conversations , but

41:17

I think we're still a bit

41:20

scratching the surface on . Are we

41:22

truly getting to some of the mental

41:24

health challenges that have been in our society all

41:26

along , and are we really helping

41:28

the

41:31

folks who need the most support . Get that support

41:33

.

41:34

Yeah , we touched on this privately

41:36

when we talked about some of the really public

41:39

suicides . We talked about Twitch

41:41

. I

41:44

don't think I know

41:47

one person who didn't find

41:50

that beyond shocking and sad

41:53

and nobody understood

41:55

it

41:57

. Even we were saying , like our children

42:00

, my daughter was shocked and

42:02

we were all shocked because

42:05

the appearance and that's what

42:07

I think is probably

42:10

the scariest

42:13

thing for people who

42:15

are not struggling is that we may not see

42:17

that somebody's struggling .

42:26

I think that's something that was really interesting

42:28

. That came forth when we think about the pandemic

42:31

, when I look at the public health angle but

42:33

then I start translating it to

42:35

some of the conversation we're having now is it's

42:37

this idea of warning signals

42:40

. There's so much

42:42

to talk about all the warning signals that the

42:44

pandemic was coming . There's so much people can

42:46

say about what was reacted to and what wasn't

42:48

all those things . I think that's true

42:50

in our own lives as well too . But I

42:52

think what is hard is that

42:55

there's differences in experiences

42:57

and differences in what we see for other people

42:59

. It's equally important to

43:01

know your own warning signs as

43:05

it is to also be seeking out for other

43:07

people . Sometimes

43:11

we see warning signs and say , okay , I think something was

43:13

different with that person , but we couldn't quite

43:15

put our finger on it . We just let it slide

43:17

. This by no means be

43:19

commenting on the

43:22

situation with Twitch , but what it really evoked

43:24

for all of us is there are people

43:26

who we think they not be struggling because

43:28

they show up as happy

43:30

and fantastic and

43:33

thriving in the world and we don't

43:35

know what's going on behind them . Likewise , maybe

43:37

we do that the same for others . How

43:39

do we know our own warning signs , but how

43:41

do we also , proactively

43:44

, when we see something that might

43:46

be a warning signal

43:48

in someone else , we're stepping in to actually provide

43:51

that support and help out ? I

43:53

think that's . It's really hard

43:55

to comment on one person's

43:57

situation and what happened when we don't know

43:59

the full context and we don't know what's going on

44:02

. But I think it may feed a lot of us , reflect

44:04

on ourselves . Are

44:06

we okay ? And then the people

44:08

around us is everyone

44:12

, even the people who seem

44:14

to be doing really well ? Let's just think

44:17

and take a

44:19

moment to check in and say are you really okay

44:21

?

44:22

Right , I agree , but

44:24

I also think we have to be careful

44:26

because sometimes , as I'm

44:28

sure you would see in your line

44:30

of what you do , you

44:33

have to be careful because

44:35

if that person is really

44:37

closed off , you could potentially

44:40

risk your relationship with that person

44:42

, right ?

44:44

Absolutely , and I think it brings up

44:46

this is one of our learnings , I think as well

44:48

in the last couple of years is that when

44:51

we worked with clients , mental

44:53

health is so top of mind that it was just really

44:55

we started having a lot of conversations

44:58

, or the range of organizations bringing

45:00

in our psychiatrists to help facilitate these

45:02

conversations , just to really open

45:04

up the dialogue and reduce the stigma

45:06

around mental health broadly

45:08

. I think what we're learning

45:11

now , too , is you have to equip

45:13

both sides of the conversation so as

45:15

we start talking about it , the

45:17

people who are hearing about it also need

45:19

tools to help

45:21

respond and help engage

45:23

right . So if someone is talking about

45:26

self-harm openly

45:28

to you , that is very difficult

45:31

and not all of us are

45:33

equipped to have those conversations

45:35

. That's not something you're kind of just

45:37

generally trained on right

45:40

and there's risk to both people on

45:42

that side of the conversation . So I think you're

45:44

absolutely right that

45:46

we need

45:48

to not only open up the conversation to make

45:50

people feel more comfortable talking about it

45:52

. We also need to open up the conversation

45:55

on how to handle it .

45:56

Yes .

45:57

Someone speaking to you about

45:59

these concerns . And the other

46:01

thing that I think is really important is what

46:04

can you do about it ? Because that's a

46:06

really hard part for people . Is you want

46:08

to help ? How

46:11

do you connect to resources ? What resources

46:13

are out there ? And accessing

46:15

and getting support for mental health is very

46:18

different than physical health

46:20

. So one of my clients

46:22

you said that I felt like I was kicking a frog

46:24

until I finally found that person

46:26

who really worked and helped me , and

46:29

so it's not because of

46:31

the kind of vulnerability and sensitivity

46:33

that's involved in those relationships with the mental

46:35

health professional

46:38

or someone who's providing

46:40

you support . It might take some time to find

46:42

that fit . That's very different

46:45

than when you go in to get your

46:47

finger x-rayed right and

46:49

that you need to get it done . So

46:52

I think understanding how to access it . The

46:54

other thing is treatment plans are

46:57

clear for everybody , so it's not easy

46:59

to say , hey , why don't you go do this

47:01

for someone you don't actually know if

47:03

that's the thing that works right ? There's

47:06

a lot of finding that

47:08

fit of professional

47:10

, of therapy , of medication

47:12

, all those pieces and all

47:14

of this , if they is . You

47:17

know , if I could , I could advocate for . One

47:19

thing is advocate for yourself and don't

47:21

give up because it takes

47:24

time . But also , when you're

47:26

the support person for someone who needs

47:28

that kind of help , it's not

47:30

on you to be there professional

47:33

therapist that you can help

47:35

, to say , hey , maybe it's okay to keep going

47:37

, or maybe we try someone else , or

47:39

you know how do you speak up

47:41

to get that help that you need . So

47:44

those are a few things that we're working on . How do

47:46

you kind of decree stigma and get people to talk

47:48

about it ? How do you equip people with

47:50

resources and language when they're the person

47:52

being confided in ? Yes

47:55

, and then how do you help people understand

47:57

the existing support system

47:59

and resources that are out there and how to navigate

48:01

that whole , you know

48:04

, mental health professional

48:07

service system .

48:10

I think what you said there is really important

48:12

. There's a lot of things that you said that were really important . There's

48:14

there's two sides to the

48:16

coin , especially

48:19

if you're a parent . So

48:21

, as an example , when

48:24

my daughter was sick , I had no

48:26

idea how do I , how do I

48:28

talk about this with a five year old

48:30

and a nine year old ? So

48:33

Toronto's Hospital for Sick

48:35

Children Amazing

48:37

, they had child life therapists . So

48:40

I actually use

48:42

that service because I'm like this

48:45

is so foreign

48:48

to me . But you know , obviously

48:50

you take their advice and you use

48:52

your own intuition as a parent , because

48:55

I'm a big believer in everybody

48:57

has a different parenting style

49:00

. But get some advice from

49:02

somebody who knows how to deal with these

49:04

situations . Just like what you were saying about

49:06

self-harm , like I

49:08

wouldn't even know where to start on

49:11

trying to help someone . But

49:13

if I'm a parent of a five-year-old

49:16

, I want my child to trust me

49:18

, but I better get some advice

49:20

from experts as well in the situation

49:22

.

49:24

I think the other thing that's also important

49:26

, that we're learning there is those individuals

49:28

who are on the receiving end . There's

49:32

an experience for them as well , too

49:34

. So there's risk , but there's also

49:36

, like I've talked , you

49:39

know , we talked to managers , for example , who

49:41

are on the receiving end of multiple

49:43

conversations like this . We

49:45

talked to their employees . We talked to frontline

49:48

employees that are on the receiving

49:50

end continuously , and

49:52

you know why bring this up is

49:54

if you are one of those people , you need

49:57

to take care of me . You need to

49:59

give yourself permission to take care of yourself

50:01

too , because this is affecting

50:03

you , too , absolutely . You

50:05

know there's multiple layers

50:07

. Make sure you know we want to reach out

50:09

and support people who

50:12

need care . We also need to advocate for ourselves

50:14

, but we also need to see that when we're the caregiver

50:16

or we're the support , we might need help

50:18

as well .

50:20

I like that you mentioned that , because

50:22

I think we forget that a lot

50:24

of the time , especially when we're parents

50:26

. We forget that . Okay

50:30

, let's

50:32

get into what

50:36

we can do . We talked

50:38

a lot about signs

50:41

and how they're different . What

50:45

I loved is that you talked about self-awareness

50:48

. When you see you're different

50:50

, like you

50:52

know , I can recognize

50:55

things , but sometimes it's in hindsight , right

50:57

, Like you don't see it until you

50:59

kind of come out of the fog . But what if you don't come

51:01

out of the fog ?

51:04

Yeah , so a couple things

51:06

, and

51:09

I think these are some of the things that

51:11

did come from the pandemic

51:13

where we need to kind of be aware of

51:15

this . So one in

51:18

terms of the things that we can do . It's

51:20

easy to say know your warning signs , but sometimes

51:23

it's hard when you're in the midst of it to know

51:25

what your warning signs are .

51:26

Yeah .

51:27

There are a lot of things on

51:29

mindfulness and journaling

51:32

and all of those pieces and

51:34

I think one of the things I want to say

51:37

about why those can be important is

51:39

they even just taking those few minutes

51:41

it actually helps you be

51:43

more attuned and alert to

51:45

you . I love that you said that

51:47

, so when things start shifting

51:49

, you can feel that something

51:52

is wrong , because when we don't give our space to

51:54

do that , that's when we start feeling like we're

51:56

losing time , right ? So

51:58

there are some very small , simple

52:00

, simple things that I think

52:03

are just important so you

52:05

could keep aware of that

52:07

. And then , if you know something is different

52:10

, then you give yourself that permission to say

52:13

, okay , something's off

52:15

, I need to step in , and maybe it's just

52:17

those . You're hanging out with your friends

52:19

, you're taking that night

52:21

to sleep eight hours with everything

52:24

disconnected , whatever it is you need to do

52:26

for yourself , but that's really

52:28

important . I

52:30

think that the other thing is

52:32

that and this term kind

52:35

of so mindfulness is

52:37

a big term that's come out a lot . Another

52:39

term is resiliency . We hear a lot

52:41

about what that means , and

52:43

that's been a really interesting one

52:45

for me to try to unpack in

52:47

practice and what it means

52:49

, and there's a few things that I think are important

52:52

when I think about

52:54

that . So one resiliency

52:56

means being able to bounce

52:58

back when you fall . It yes , yes

53:01

, and so that's that part about

53:04

bouncing back , but I think part

53:06

of it is also giving yourself

53:08

permission to fall , because that is normal

53:10

right To make mistakes

53:13

, to stumble and it's

53:16

hard , I think , especially with young folks

53:18

today who kind of have a lot of things kind of visible

53:22

via social media or all of these

53:24

pieces , who missed a lot of those experiences during the pandemic

53:27

, to kind of stumble and pick themselves

53:29

up . Actually it is something you need to think about

53:33

to say it's okay to fall

53:35

and I'll do that sometimes because if you don't , when you fall you

53:38

fall much harder and it's

53:40

a lot harder to pick that up . So just even in that visual , give

53:44

yourself permission that we all stumble so

53:47

that when you fall it's okay , right , because I think

53:50

we forget to say that . Okay , you know these

53:52

days right . The other piece is when we start

53:54

thinking about

53:57

bouncing back . There's a piece

53:59

that's individual and we've kind of talked about this

54:01

, about you know what are

54:03

the things you can do to build

54:06

those reserves of energy so that you

54:09

can bounce back up right

54:11

. So all of the pieces , a lot of the things that you talk about in

54:13

your lifestyle

54:16

work as well , sandy .

54:16

So all the sleep the nutrition , the physical health .

54:18

All of those pieces

54:20

are part of building your reserves of energy

54:22

, because if you're depleted it is really hard

54:26

to bounce back . So once you fall , it feels

54:28

like you're crashing right . And so giving yourself

54:30

that permission

54:33

to also

54:35

build up your reserves , I think is really

54:37

important . And in that it's all

54:40

the kind of healthy things we talk about , it's also the

54:42

things that make you happy , the things that

54:45

give you joy . You know all of the anything , and it could

54:47

be different for all of us . It could be

54:50

I think we talked about it it could be dancing in your

54:52

kitchen , yeah , yeah , absolutely Right

54:56

, like you know , playing a game with your kids , all of those

54:58

little kind of happy , happy things

55:01

. I

55:03

think that's really important . I do

55:05

feel , and I wonder , because I've noticed it with my kids

55:08

, that we had a couple years where , you know

55:11

, people were masked and they didn't see anybody smile

55:14

. Oh yeah , when we opened

55:16

doors we didn't say , hey , hold the door open for that person . We said

55:20

, okay , keep your distance , keep going . Yes

55:22

, and I wonder , have we lost some of that just

55:24

kind of happiness

55:27

? So that's that second

55:29

thing of building your reserves of energy , but just

55:31

joy .

55:33

Right .

55:34

The third thing and I mean this kind of points back to why I sort

55:36

of went into depth with my

55:38

stories that kind of community piece

55:41

. I think community just

55:43

so , so matters . And you know you look

55:47

at society , you look at history , you look

55:49

at different cultures that how

55:51

do we support each other

55:53

is really

55:56

really important , right

55:58

, and we did lose some of that

56:00

sense of community . I think when

56:03

the pandemic started , everyone kind of riled

56:05

up and we were all like you know , everyone sort of

56:08

felt like we're going through this collective thing together

56:10

and then it started separating and

56:12

we started seeing more divisions and

56:14

more reactions and that feeling of

56:16

collective community of how

56:18

do we help each other out with all these little

56:21

things . That's

56:24

really important , because none of us can

56:26

do this alone . And I can even

56:28

stay for myself All

56:31

those failure moments in my life . I

56:33

know the people who are there and what

56:35

they said and some of it , you

56:37

know , changed my life right , and

56:40

so you

56:42

know how do we build back and

56:45

just really reconnect with

56:47

everybody in our you know

56:49

, in our existing circle

56:51

, but also

56:54

the other people who are now in our lives

56:56

. You know I

56:58

talk about how

57:00

sometimes it feels like we're forcing

57:03

disconnection rather than connection when

57:05

we talk about the divisions and how

57:07

people feel right

57:09

and what we see in social media .

57:11

Oh , there's a lot of divisiveness . Yes , all

57:13

of that .

57:14

So how can we lean towards connecting

57:18

when we see differences rather than disconnecting

57:21

, so that those are some of those pieces

57:23

when we talk about action , that they're

57:25

not revolutionary . I don't

57:27

think I've told people things they don't know , but it's

57:29

something that I think I constantly want

57:32

to remind myself

57:34

about in my world , but also that I

57:36

just think is so important and

57:39

I think we sometimes forget .

57:41

Yeah , I love that you mentioned all of it

57:43

because , whether

57:45

or not listen , there's

57:48

going to be a lot of people that are going to listen to this podcast

57:50

. They know who you are , they

57:52

know your credentials and they're going

57:54

to take that to heart . So I think it's important

57:57

to repeat these things regardless . And

57:59

the whole divisiveness like

58:01

instead of community . I so

58:04

aligned with that because

58:06

we saw so much of that separation

58:09

in all ways , in every way

58:11

, through social media , through people , through

58:13

physical , through , and it's like

58:15

, oh well , you said that

58:17

and you know I can't align with

58:19

you and I like there's just so much

58:21

of it . And community is

58:24

so important , so

58:27

important and prevention , and

58:29

you know , one of the things that you

58:31

mentioned journaling . I just have to

58:33

. I have to just reiterate that you

58:36

don't have . So I am an English

58:38

literature graduate . Okay , I

58:40

like to write and you don't

58:42

have to like to write , to journal and

58:45

what I ? Exactly

58:47

what you said . It brings

58:50

things to mind that

58:52

otherwise could be buried in

58:54

that busy day where you're getting

58:56

the kids ready for school and then it's this activity

58:58

and then you're going to make dinner and then it's like , oh , my

59:00

God , I've been scrolling for an hour on

59:03

TikTok and it's 10

59:05

o'clock and I got to get my sleep . And

59:07

you see , I think when

59:10

people don't stop and

59:13

actually just be quiet , you

59:17

know you speak about mindfulness and so many people

59:19

will say to me Well , I can't meditate Like

59:21

Well , neither can I . That's why I use

59:23

tools like I use brain tap , I

59:25

use newcom , and what it is

59:27

is . I tend to have that

59:29

brain that goes in all

59:31

directions through the day . And

59:35

so you know but we recognize

59:37

that about ourselves that

59:40

if we don't stop for however

59:42

much time you can give , whether it's

59:44

to write , whether it's to use

59:46

a tool like I have to use , I can't . I

59:48

tried doing other things for meditation

59:50

. These work for me and you

59:52

got to find what works for you just to get that brain

59:55

to slow down . And then all

59:58

of a sudden you might be like Okay

1:00:00

, I'm not okay and

1:00:02

I haven't been okay for a while and

1:00:06

maybe it's time that I reach out

1:00:08

and get some help , because it's been a while

1:00:10

that I haven't been like this , but I didn't notice

1:00:12

because I just kept going and going . And

1:00:14

then you know no judgment here

1:00:17

but going and then masking through numbing

1:00:19

, like alcohol or whatever

1:00:21

else , and we get

1:00:23

on that hamster wheel right .

1:00:26

Totally , and I think the little

1:00:28

piece of advice that was really great for me is

1:00:30

, when you're journaling or thinking about those

1:00:32

pieces , write about the good stuff too

1:00:35

, not just about stuff . Write about the high

1:00:37

as well as you know the other

1:00:39

parts , because there's something

1:00:41

about revisiting those moments that just reminds

1:00:44

you . Right , it's that balance

1:00:46

piece we talked about . Right , this isn't every

1:00:48

day . Right it's . It's

1:00:50

there's just

1:00:53

having both of those pieces in there . I

1:00:55

think it's so important .

1:00:58

Okay , I think we need to see , because

1:01:00

I know it's going to be different in

1:01:02

the US than Canada , but

1:01:06

who do we reach out to

1:01:08

? So there's , you know , there's

1:01:10

, in Canada . We have Bell

1:01:13

. Let's talk , we

1:01:15

have a number .

1:01:18

That's a camp like tell me how all that

1:01:20

works .

1:01:20

Where do we go ?

1:01:22

Yeah , absolutely so . Very

1:01:24

recently in the US they launched it and now

1:01:26

we have it in Canada as well . There's the 988

1:01:29

suicide health line .

1:01:31

Okay .

1:01:31

Right , so that's new . And the idea was

1:01:33

that just three digits don't give me a long

1:01:35

toll free number , just give me three digits that

1:01:38

I can text or I can call

1:01:41

to get help . Okay

1:01:43

, so you know 988

1:01:45

versus the . We have our 911

1:01:47

, we also have 988 . So everyone

1:01:50

should know that both across the border . I think we're

1:01:52

going to figure out how to , you know , get

1:01:54

that running and make the best use of it . But

1:01:56

that's a very good resource . Just to know

1:01:58

, off the top .

1:01:59

Can I ask you so that resource

1:02:01

is for anybody , whether it's

1:02:04

somebody who's afraid that someone

1:02:07

they know is suicidal

1:02:09

or doing some something that could

1:02:11

potentially really harm them

1:02:13

. Exactly , it could be for anybody .

1:02:15

For yourself , it could be speaking

1:02:18

support for someone else Okay . The

1:02:20

folks on the other end are trained professionals

1:02:23

that can help

1:02:25

direct you . You know is needed

1:02:28

, Okay , and it's text

1:02:30

and phone . It's English and

1:02:32

French in Canada . I think it's multi-linked

1:02:34

in the US . I don't know the full range

1:02:36

of languages there as well , but that's

1:02:38

a tool that just came up recently that

1:02:40

I think you know . We want to

1:02:42

just normalize and make sure folks out

1:02:44

there yes . Yeah , great

1:02:47

, on the seeking professional

1:02:49

, there's a lot of pieces locally

1:02:51

, there's a lot of in

1:02:54

. You know , sandy , I'm happy to kind of share a list

1:02:56

. If you want to put it up at your point , I can put it in

1:02:58

my show notes . Yeah , yeah

1:03:00

, right , and there's

1:03:02

a range , and it's interesting because it's

1:03:04

there are , you know , culturally

1:03:07

sensitive resources . There are resources

1:03:09

just for men , there are resources for youth

1:03:12

right . It's kind of

1:03:14

depending on what you need , and so

1:03:18

I think that's also important because I

1:03:20

think I said before too , you

1:03:22

know mental health is a lot less

1:03:24

structured in some senses than some of the physical

1:03:27

health pieces that we can think

1:03:29

about normally . And so trying to figure

1:03:31

out the right fit and what's meaningful to you

1:03:33

, having a range of different resources that

1:03:35

might be feel you may feel more

1:03:38

comfortable with , is important .

1:03:39

Can I ask you a question about that ? Does that mean

1:03:42

that somebody could use one

1:03:44

of those numbers and find

1:03:46

, let's say if it's applicable , a

1:03:48

psychotherapist or

1:03:50

a psychiatrist , or

1:03:52

yes or no ?

1:03:54

And a lot of them will have kind of counselors

1:03:57

, or they will have folks

1:03:59

that they can refer to . I think it's

1:04:01

important to actually know , though , that there

1:04:04

are a range of mental health professionals out

1:04:07

there right , and we may not all need a psychiatrist

1:04:09

right . Right right To arrange and we

1:04:12

may find fit with the different

1:04:14

types of professionals as well . And

1:04:16

so what's good with a lot of these resources

1:04:18

is they have multi-peak kind of disciplinary teams

1:04:21

right With their teams that specialize in

1:04:23

certain populations or supports

1:04:25

, and

1:04:28

so it's easier to access that know who some

1:04:31

of these folks are if you're going through kind

1:04:33

of a specific organization and

1:04:36

you can get that help as well . A

1:04:38

lot of organizations now

1:04:40

, like employers , they have

1:04:43

support in place as well . I

1:04:45

think that kind of more challenging part

1:04:47

is figuring out what support is most appropriate

1:04:49

for you . So there's a place that's

1:04:52

programs that you know , depending on the program

1:04:54

itself , have a range of different resources

1:04:56

, but there's also different tools

1:04:58

. Like you talked about some of the meditation

1:05:01

tools . There's things related to cognitive behavioral

1:05:03

therapy , like there's a lot of there's online

1:05:06

programs . There's actually a range

1:05:08

of things that are out there

1:05:11

, and so it's just becoming kind of familiar

1:05:13

with that . But I can give you some of the ones

1:05:16

that we have looked at that are specific

1:05:18

to different populations as well .

1:05:20

Oh , that would be great . So are

1:05:23

these like 988 ? Is there

1:05:25

a fee for that ? No , no

1:05:27

, no . Neither in Canada

1:05:29

or the US there's no .

1:05:31

No , okay , it was the idea that

1:05:33

, like exactly what you said

1:05:35

, what do you do with ? Your situation and

1:05:37

911 wasn't the right answer . Right

1:05:39

, right , and so how do

1:05:41

we ? And then folks on the other end of 911

1:05:43

may not also be equipped to answer

1:05:46

these questions , as we

1:05:48

talked about earlier . And so that's you

1:05:50

know where the orange is 988

1:05:52

.

1:05:53

And people who do answer those

1:05:55

calls . They can all it's . Is it specifically

1:05:58

for suicide ?

1:06:00

It is , but there's also everything

1:06:02

that kind of comes up to suicide

1:06:05

. Like I will say , if we , you know , we talk about some

1:06:07

of the numbers . So in Canada , I think

1:06:10

, the rates are around 4500

1:06:13

suicides per year . But if you

1:06:15

look at the number of suicidal

1:06:18

thoughts , we and

1:06:20

the most recent stats I saw , it's about

1:06:22

840,000 . That's almost a 200

1:06:25

fold difference , right ? So , yes

1:06:27

, suicide , but there's a whole range

1:06:29

of reason

1:06:32

. You know when

1:06:34

we start thinking from thoughts right

1:06:36

through . You

1:06:39

know where someone actually died by suicide right

1:06:42

so it's . It's covered in a lot of

1:06:44

, a lot of ground .

1:06:45

I think that's huge . What

1:06:47

about internet ? Because Cleveland Clinic is

1:06:49

international , correct . So

1:06:51

are there resources ? Because I do have some

1:06:53

listeners in Europe and

1:06:56

you know , I don't know if there's resources

1:06:58

in Europe as well for the Cleveland

1:07:00

Clinic , or or you know , like I

1:07:03

would just like to say

1:07:06

that this conversation

1:07:08

is so important , I want to put as much information

1:07:10

in the show notes as I can . Yes , yes

1:07:13

.

1:07:14

So Cleveland Clinic we have , we're

1:07:16

in Canada , we're in London , we're

1:07:18

in Shanghai , we're in

1:07:20

Abu Dhabi . There are most

1:07:23

, I would say . Suicide has become

1:07:25

such like

1:07:29

it has been raised in terms of priorities

1:07:31

that many

1:07:34

governments , including the W and the WHO

1:07:36

kind of broadly , that many governments

1:07:38

are actually making this a priority right

1:07:41

, and so it's not just that you go to a

1:07:43

single system , like in the UK . They

1:07:45

have a new strategy around suicide

1:07:47

as well . So in each country there

1:07:49

are things that are going on , based on the rates

1:07:52

and and you know what we're seeing there as well

1:07:54

too , and it will look different

1:07:56

. There's there's other kind of nuances around

1:07:59

credentialing of mental health professionals and some

1:08:01

of those pieces , and so I don't

1:08:03

want to kind of assert what might be happening

1:08:05

. Yeah , you know , in other countries

1:08:08

there is a well too , but

1:08:10

I think it's important

1:08:12

that when , when something that happens to an

1:08:14

individual becomes a public health issue

1:08:16

, that it's something that affects all of us

1:08:19

.

1:08:19

Yeah .

1:08:20

Right , and it's a global public health issue

1:08:22

at this point , right . So you're absolutely

1:08:24

right that you

1:08:26

know this goes beyond Canada and the US .

1:08:29

What would you say is the one

1:08:32

common denominator that

1:08:34

we've seen as it relates to mental

1:08:36

health from across the

1:08:38

world , or

1:08:42

is that a really tough question ?

1:08:46

It's a tough question and I'll probably put a disclaimer

1:08:49

around . You know what I , what I think

1:08:51

? Yeah .

1:08:52

But no , but it's just like what do you think

1:08:54

you're ? You're in this industry , so

1:08:56

it doesn't necessarily have to be

1:08:58

a definitive stat .

1:09:02

Yeah , I

1:09:05

would say so

1:09:08

there is . I think you start feeling

1:09:11

angst when you have an expectation

1:09:13

of what you think something should be and

1:09:16

then life or reality falls short

1:09:18

. So that gap between reality

1:09:20

and expectation and somehow

1:09:24

across the world maybe

1:09:26

it's because of internet , social media , all these

1:09:28

pieces we've

1:09:31

, our , our

1:09:33

, our that gap

1:09:36

seems to have been increased , and I don't

1:09:38

know because we've changed where our expectations

1:09:40

come from of other people

1:09:42

, of institutions , of ourselves

1:09:45

, right ? Or

1:09:47

you know , we need to like , I don't

1:09:49

, I don't know if it's lowering our expectations

1:09:51

or just recalibrating reality on that

1:09:55

, but there is something in that space

1:09:57

between expectations and reality

1:09:59

and acceptance , right

1:10:02

, that is

1:10:05

just part of life , right , that that

1:10:07

they're . You know , for centuries

1:10:10

the world has gone through hard

1:10:12

times and for centuries we've been able

1:10:15

to come through it . And

1:10:17

you know how do we

1:10:19

just kind of bring back that this is

1:10:21

life , right ? Like part of the expectations

1:10:24

of life is that there will be things

1:10:26

that are struggles , and part of what we know

1:10:29

is those tough times also really

1:10:31

lead to , you know , many good things

1:10:33

afterwards . Oh

1:10:35

, yes , so I don't

1:10:37

know if that's really the answer , but like there

1:10:39

is something in my mind about , I feel

1:10:42

like these expectations

1:10:44

and reality and reality . There's

1:10:46

some kind of miscalibration that's causing

1:10:48

angst in society right now .

1:10:51

I think what you're , what you're saying , makes so

1:10:53

much sense . What the reason is , we

1:10:56

can't quite pinpoint yet

1:10:58

, but you know we can surmise a few things

1:11:00

. You know , like I almost think I

1:11:05

hate to say it because it probably sounds almost cliche

1:11:08

now , but social media is a big one because

1:11:10

we see the lives of so many people . It's

1:11:13

almost like too much information

1:11:15

coming at us and it may not

1:11:17

be accurate information and

1:11:19

reality information , so

1:11:22

it's almost like a distorted piece

1:11:24

.

1:11:24

Yeah , because I think another big part

1:11:27

of community and connection is

1:11:29

trust , and if you

1:11:31

can't trust information and you can't trust

1:11:33

people , it makes it very

1:11:35

hard to then think , okay , am

1:11:37

I doing the right thing ? And

1:11:41

I think the challenge with social I think

1:11:43

there's a lot of good things that come with technology

1:11:46

and social media . By all means , I think it's

1:11:48

really sparked this kind of grassroots

1:11:50

movement in many areas , which

1:11:52

is so important , and I really

1:11:54

value giving a voice to people

1:11:56

who may not have a voice , and I think it's really

1:11:59

great about which is great . I think I

1:12:01

worry that we

1:12:04

may not all be seeing the same information

1:12:06

and that actually forces

1:12:08

some of that disconnection and divisiveness

1:12:10

, right , because then it becomes

1:12:12

really hard to have

1:12:15

trust in others , also

1:12:18

to have trust in your own knowledge

1:12:21

and judgment as well , right ?

1:12:24

Yeah , I love that you say that I actually talk about

1:12:27

that , because you know I'm writing a book right now

1:12:29

. I talk about critical thinking and being able

1:12:31

to really kind of decipher okay

1:12:33

this applies , this doesn't apply and

1:12:36

being able to move through all

1:12:39

this information that's coming at us

1:12:41

. Yeah , so we live

1:12:43

in a world of information right now .

1:12:46

Right , so , a world of information and maybe not

1:12:48

that much understanding .

1:12:50

Yeah , yeah , so

1:12:52

yes , well , this , okay

1:12:54

. Is there anything that we didn't touch on that you

1:12:56

would like to mention

1:12:59

? That we didn't cover off ? This has been a great conversation

1:13:02

, seema .

1:13:05

We've covered a lot of ground . We have

1:13:07

we have , I think

1:13:10

, maybe , just probably like recapping

1:13:12

some of the pieces around , like what

1:13:14

I have learned that has been so helpful for

1:13:16

me that I hope others can experience

1:13:19

as well , as that understanding of the continuum

1:13:21

and that acceptance of trying

1:13:24

to . You know that we all may be on

1:13:26

different parts of that continuum and time , and

1:13:28

that's life and that's okay . But

1:13:30

how do we recognize

1:13:33

our own warning signals ? How do we

1:13:35

feel comfortable seeking

1:13:37

support , you know , early

1:13:39

and as needed and some

1:13:41

of that might just be in our community of social

1:13:44

circles , but some of it could be professional

1:13:46

as well and don't give up , right

1:13:49

when something is warning . When

1:13:51

you have that warning signal and something

1:13:53

is off and you know it's affecting you

1:13:55

, just don't give up . And

1:13:57

sometimes I think we talked a little bit

1:14:00

about the caregiving too I think we forget

1:14:02

that other people want to help us . We

1:14:05

all feel there is a joy

1:14:08

that comes from helping other people . So it's okay

1:14:10

to say I need support and it's okay

1:14:12

to reach out to people also

1:14:15

.

1:14:16

I love that . So where can

1:14:18

someone find the Cleveland Clinic ? Is

1:14:20

it just just tell us

1:14:22

a little bit about the Cleveland Clinic ?

1:14:25

Yeah . So Cleveland

1:14:27

Clinic is an amazing

1:14:29

institute now maybe by us , but

1:14:31

I think the things that people don't often realize

1:14:33

about us is so

1:14:36

we're large , we're based in Cleveland , we

1:14:38

have over 70,000 caregivers , which

1:14:40

is you know how we refer to our employees

1:14:43

, and it

1:14:45

really it has a very interesting

1:14:48

story which resonates a lot with me personally

1:14:50

. It started , you know , after the war

1:14:52

, with four doctors who'd worked together

1:14:54

abroad and when they came back to the US

1:14:57

I'd have said , hey , we

1:14:59

actually do better as a team

1:15:01

in terms of patient care than we do individually

1:15:04

. So why don't we come together as

1:15:07

a team and look at that

1:15:10

model of care delivery and

1:15:12

so that idea of team-based

1:15:15

multidisciplinary care

1:15:17

and the importance of

1:15:19

not just kind

1:15:22

of the quality of treatment

1:15:24

, that the patient's experience is

1:15:26

very , very core to

1:15:28

who Cleveland Clinic is broadly

1:15:30

. Now , how we show up and

1:15:32

what we offer in different geographies looks very

1:15:35

different , and in Canada we're a real , I'd

1:15:39

say we're a complement to the system

1:15:41

. We really try to support where there

1:15:44

are gaps . So one big part of the work that

1:15:46

we do is around employers , as I spoke

1:15:48

about , and some of that is more direct patient

1:15:50

care , Some of it is more advisory

1:15:52

services , which is the type of

1:15:54

work my team does

1:15:57

, where we really connect doctors

1:15:59

and experts across this kind of multidisciplinary

1:16:02

, you know , team of physicians

1:16:05

and other clinicians

1:16:08

and public health experts to really help our clients

1:16:10

or organizations navigate some of

1:16:12

these issues . So we have that

1:16:14

part of it , but we also do a lot

1:16:17

of the community , you know , whether it's

1:16:19

testing or vaccines or any of

1:16:21

those pieces that came up during the

1:16:24

pandemic and so and we also

1:16:26

have a sports medicine side

1:16:29

as well . So it's all these kind of different

1:16:31

pieces that are there , but

1:16:33

I do think there's a

1:16:36

lot that folks don't know about the type

1:16:38

of work we do and how we support .

1:16:41

I will definitely put the website

1:16:43

on in my show notes

1:16:45

, along with all the other resources we talked

1:16:48

about , and I really want

1:16:50

to thank you and it was such

1:16:52

a pleasure meeting you , Seema oh thank

1:16:55

you so much , sandy .

1:16:56

This has been great , and thank

1:16:58

you for just having this podcast

1:17:01

and a forum for people

1:17:03

to learn and to share experiences

1:17:05

. I just think that's no , it's a community

1:17:08

.

1:17:08

Thanks , yeah , exactly . Thank you , seema

1:17:10

. I

1:17:13

hope you enjoyed this episode . Be

1:17:16

sure to share it with

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someone you know might

1:17:21

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