0:00

Is there a goods or even a

0:02

fair way to deliver bad employment news?

0:04

With proposed job cuts at threes, news

0:06

hop and Tv and said midday and

0:09

late news and the loss of Sunday

0:11

and Fair go is it possible for

0:13

employers to do redundancy? Well the news

0:16

of these job losses was delivered and

0:18

two very different ways to each newsroom,

0:20

each coming as a huge shock to

0:22

employees in a moment's. will hear from

0:25

top employment lawyer Susan Hornsby Gallic for

0:27

an interview on how those each play

0:29

Dad's. And hi, redundancy could be handled

0:32

by employers. First, the one news hub

0:34

employee described their shock on receiving the

0:36

news that they'd be out of a

0:38

job to Saturday morning They told us

0:41

on condition of anonymity and his voice

0:43

here by a meteor What Colleague Cullen

0:45

Peacock. When. The invite games are you

0:47

saying? We had to attend a meeting that

0:49

would affect their jobs. You could see the

0:51

color drain from everyone's faces. That was really

0:54

bad, very bad. And afterwards we weren't sure

0:56

what to do. Go to the Pub were

0:58

so shaken up and jittery. How does one

1:00

behavior in of just had the rug pulled

1:02

out like that? After a bit of wandering

1:04

around in a days it seemed right. The

1:06

we put the surge of adrenaline to use

1:08

and got on with their work, telling the

1:11

story of our media companies demise of home

1:13

with the other news of the day. The.

1:15

Depression had. The. Following day they were

1:17

council as available on site, so a

1:19

few of us went to see them

1:21

on. Pretty sure that most of us

1:23

would burst into tears the second we

1:25

stepped through that meeting room. Door redundancy

1:27

is nothing new, but this felt like

1:29

the end of something bigger than one

1:31

organization. New Zealand would be left with

1:34

just one local television news provider. And

1:37

while we were still coming to terms

1:39

with the loss of an Empire News

1:41

Network that have been telling the stories

1:43

of New Zealanders for thirty five years

1:45

we find out the Tvnz it was

1:47

also getting it's newsroom and proposed getting

1:49

rid of the last remaining long form

1:51

television current affairs show Sunday along with

1:53

the Ago and the midday and late

1:55

news bulletins if New subs demise felt

1:57

like the rug being pulled out. Well

2:00

this felt like we'd lost the whole floor beneath our feet.

2:02

We begrudgingly understood a commercial business

2:04

making such a brutal decision. But

2:07

TBNZ? What was happening? So

2:10

our TBNZ colleagues joined through the stages of

2:13

grief, but all of us are grieving for

2:15

more than ourselves and our colleagues. We're

2:17

grieving for our industry. At

2:19

the same time all this was happening,

2:22

we were reporting on the government rushing

2:24

through legislation, the possible connections between ministers

2:26

and the tobacco industry, and the fast

2:28

tracking of consents, all issues

2:30

that should be scrutinised by media as part

2:32

of a healthy democracy. Now

2:34

many of my young colleagues are looking to move

2:36

overseas where they have a chance to continue working

2:39

in this industry. I can't

2:41

blame them. There are a few

2:43

opportunities here for camera operators, editors,

2:45

broadcast technicians and television reporters. I

2:48

don't know what the answer is. All I

2:50

can say is that every nation needs a

2:52

functioning media sector across all platforms, especially

2:55

given the rise of disinformation. I'm

2:58

one of those who can't easily move overseas, so I

3:00

don't know if there is a future for me in

3:02

this industry that I've devoted my career to. We

3:05

don't do this for the money, and we

3:07

could all earn way better money in other

3:09

fields. But we do it because it's a

3:11

privilege to report the news, to investigate, to

3:13

celebrate heroes, to uncover wrongs, and

3:16

to hold the powers that be to account. The

3:18

great thing about television news is that we get

3:21

to go and talk to people in their communities

3:23

and hopefully give viewers a chance to imagine what

3:25

it's like to walk in their shoes. It's

3:29

just really bloody sad. That

3:31

is Media Watch's Colin Peacock there

3:34

voicing a statement that was given

3:36

to us by one News

3:38

Hub employee on condition of anonymity. No, you haven't

3:40

woken up on Sunday morning and lost a day

3:42

of your weekend. Do not worry. Now

3:44

listening to that, employment lawyer Susan Hornsby-Gelloch

3:47

on two things here really jumped

3:49

out as concerning to her. Firstly,

3:52

obviously this person was just

3:54

completely shocked. They

3:58

talk about the colour draining from

4:00

everybody. faces and feeling just completely

4:02

shocked and that is because

4:04

they just had no idea what the

4:06

purpose of the meeting was and it

4:08

just illustrates how wrong and inappropriate

4:12

that was. But

4:14

the person also recognises that redundancy is

4:17

nothing new and other people are going

4:19

through this. I think

4:21

the difference in this instance

4:23

is the impact on the

4:25

media industry being so profound

4:27

and the dangers that creates

4:30

for New Zealand and the ability

4:32

to hold government for example to

4:34

account. So now the two things

4:36

that I think are notable

4:39

in the situation and of

4:42

concern and should be concerning really

4:44

to all of us. What

4:46

is that sort of scenario like for

4:49

employees and employers to go

4:51

through? Ideally an employer

4:54

would take the employees on

4:56

a journey with them but there are

4:58

situations where urgent decisions have to be

5:00

made and I do think it's

5:02

fair to say that as far as the

5:04

media is concerned it has

5:07

been well known that there

5:09

are serious issues even

5:12

over the last 15 years but certainly over the

5:14

last couple of years. So whilst

5:17

the extent of the decision,

5:20

the magnitude of the staff losses

5:22

would have been like I'm sure a bolt-out

5:25

was the blow, the fact

5:27

that there were difficulties and News

5:30

Hub had to look at some

5:32

cost cutting measures is probably

5:34

not that much of a surprise. I

5:37

mean I think where they probably fell

5:40

down is the lack of prior notice

5:42

of the purpose of the

5:44

meeting, the fact that they

5:46

just suddenly announced it without

5:48

any indication to employees that that's

5:51

what the meeting was even about,

5:53

clearly caused shock, upset

5:56

in a way that wasn't

6:00

Ideal. I'm part yeah. I agree.

6:02

in the. It's

6:04

not nice to see really exceptional.

6:06

There are a lot of on

6:08

public and private seat dance and

6:10

we're is unfortunately going through retrenchment

6:12

at the moment. arms and good

6:14

at this meeting. A good way

6:16

to deliver that sort of new

6:18

space. It will talk about that. I think I was

6:20

a bit later on as well. but with that scenario, What

6:23

should news? Harper says that please come

6:25

to this very important meeting. Which.

6:28

Is about are closer how do you patty

6:30

put it? Lol I think. Xin

6:32

he needs to be some indication of

6:34

what the masons about arms so idea

6:36

laying on they would as I'm given

6:39

employees. At least say twenty four

6:41

hours noises of amazing and seed

6:43

lock their arms and course and.

6:45

Business. Decisions that need to

6:48

be maintained or potentially a feat

6:50

Staff roles are we are having

6:52

a briefing tomorrow to discuss last

6:54

so at least paypal.com and completely

6:57

called into the in Here thus

6:59

are completely unannounced and for the

7:01

first time. With

7:03

see example from tv and said

7:06

though the news gonna leak tights

7:08

and was doing the rounds in.

7:10

The. Media for two days were clearly that

7:12

was a lot of speculation about who

7:14

was going to go, what was going

7:16

to go, how much was gonna go?

7:18

Put a sad situation due to the

7:20

people who are kind of waiting for

7:22

the Axis all. Businesses

7:26

The I'm The flipside. I'm.

7:28

Sorry says you slay am

7:31

Employees should never find out.

7:33

Arm off. Com other

7:35

people who are not affected soy amps

7:37

how we the they've got else and

7:39

the media arm and the fact that

7:41

it was circulating two days prior is

7:43

really unfortunate and seek in a those.

7:46

Tvnz. Day of your employees Twenty

7:49

four hours notice of the Make Sense

7:51

and Arm as a double edge sword,

7:53

but there's obviously they set the of

7:55

for the next Twenty four hours. Arms.

7:57

alarm and ah and war

8:00

about what's going to happen. Again,

8:03

there's no good way to deliver this news. I mean,

8:05

you could say TVNZ should

8:07

have met with each of the

8:10

affected employees, but the reality

8:12

is that there were 68 of them. So

8:14

holding sort of a briefing with as many

8:17

of them as possible who

8:19

were available at the time was probably

8:21

the best thing to do because otherwise

8:23

people would have found out through colleagues,

8:25

through the media, through rumour,

8:28

which is worse. So it's

8:31

a really difficult situation and

8:34

TVNZ, aside from the fact that

8:36

it leaked out to

8:39

media 48 hours prior, did at

8:41

least try to give their people

8:43

some prior notice of the purpose

8:45

of the meeting. But

8:47

in that situation, I suppose, if news does

8:50

leak, what should

8:52

you do? Should you make an effort to bring

8:54

those meetings forward so that that time where it's

8:56

out there is at least minimised? That

9:00

would have been better if

9:02

it had been practically possible,

9:05

whether it would have been possible to get all

9:07

those people in a room quickly

9:09

and deliver that news. Well,

9:11

I don't know. But

9:14

again, if you went out and

9:16

then suddenly called an emergency meeting

9:18

of all of your staff, you're

9:20

going to alarm everybody too. So

9:23

it's just never

9:26

a good way

9:29

in which to deliver this information. What an

9:31

employer is required to do is to try

9:33

to do it in a way which is

9:36

sensitive and

9:39

responsive. But the

9:41

fact of the media leaks really preempted

9:43

some of that. Because

9:46

these sorts of plans have been

9:49

presumably well thought through. They're

9:51

not just thought up a couple of days

9:54

beforehand. It is a process that management will

9:56

have been going through for some time. So

9:58

presumably, It's quite possible. Go. To.

10:00

Bring these meetings forward. Esta. Is

10:03

something that is required. For example, if it

10:05

doesn't hurt. I

10:08

think two things arise as a faint

10:10

someone. Is on the extent to which

10:12

they employ. I can bring people

10:14

on the journey with them so

10:16

arm and Tvnz case I'm saying

10:18

in announced the week prior that

10:20

there was a significant loss for

10:22

the last six months and had

10:24

been poking his. I understand that

10:26

our minds of the last. Ah

10:29

with the previous two months around our

10:31

the need for us to hang and

10:34

south production some it's you could. Say

10:36

the was some laden to let. It appears

10:38

that there was far less affair and the

10:40

news hub situation we're on people just to

10:43

end up out of the blue one announced

10:45

that. The closure of the Whole

10:47

news for i'm sorry out at it

10:50

those families of for an employer. And.

10:52

For the if he did soft

10:54

as I had some and clang

10:56

and this is going to hit

10:58

in in advance of and so

11:00

being brought on the tuning I

11:02

think is really important in terms

11:04

of socializing. The ideas in the

11:06

in the are not creating a

11:08

should contain it fit lean subsequently

11:10

occurred said that problem I guess

11:12

as as I'm decisions are made

11:15

quickly and arm As you look

11:17

at the Tv and seen situations

11:19

you need a not a good

11:21

theory quickly. It's quite possible. That

11:23

the would have a more emerging

11:25

and you would have jeopardized other

11:27

jobs. so am. I don't know

11:29

how long either of those organizations

11:31

were planning this. Ah, if I

11:34

had been planning it for a

11:36

long time. been more notice for

11:38

the thing visa I guess with

11:40

News Hub there were also some

11:43

signals there. you know there? There

11:45

was certainly reporters hiring freeze. There

11:47

were a couple of major programs

11:49

that hadn't started the new one

11:51

with. Run breads also. Nice

11:53

place and not returning when T V and

11:55

Zeds Q and A dead so I guess

11:58

there were some indications step up. Clearly

12:00

a much more dramatic outcome with the loss

12:02

of the whole. News. Operation

12:04

and see how far in

12:06

these situations and. Distance

12:09

feel that they can challenge the management

12:11

over whether the. Right decisions have been done.

12:13

When you're in that state of panic, which I

12:15

guess a lot of people will be. You

12:19

know, how are you able to. Put your best

12:21

foot forward. Sometimes in those situations, So.

12:24

The the main things they took

12:27

place would to announce a proposal

12:29

on the way in which at

12:31

his been reported and g reasons

12:33

for him to be to complain

12:35

and this is going to hit

12:37

and it's a student at should

12:39

be literally a proposal court to

12:41

staff ah and those employers should

12:43

retain an open mind to anything

12:45

a Kindle to unit has led

12:47

us to just and now I

12:50

understand that these a ten week

12:52

ah consultation period for the Tv

12:54

in. See and on South

12:56

and a relatively short consultation

12:58

period also for news humps

13:00

hours of that is been

13:02

criticized by the unions bad

13:05

he had wait says more

13:07

least stand and I think

13:09

the real question here is

13:11

how realistic. Is it? And

13:13

when I start to be able

13:15

to suggest anything which is going

13:17

to change these employees mine's I

13:19

mean and the case and news

13:21

have closing down the entire news

13:24

for hims is attribute of decision

13:26

that yeah it is unlikely to

13:28

be reduced of the tv in

13:30

seat. It's a little different because

13:32

shoes have been selected some havent.

13:34

Or and the. Employer has to be able

13:36

to explain why these shows has

13:39

been sleep and and others haven't

13:41

said he clung to be more

13:43

opportunity in that situation for a

13:45

seated soft belt and so ends

13:47

up both outcomes since. I

13:49

suppose One other thing quickly on this. If

13:52

you if you go through a process

13:54

which. Is A as

13:57

a poor said A Management. Of reductions

13:59

or. Cops. Or redundancies.

14:02

State does that damage the culture? For

14:04

the rest the people who are less later

14:06

on in this is clearly something more for

14:08

tv and said but do you end up

14:11

with stars who have an increased. Sense.

14:13

Of bad ceiling. Or of certainly a

14:15

lack of goodwill towards management the roster.

14:19

I. Think that's absolutely the case that

14:21

a badly handled are restructuring does

14:23

have a phone and paint on

14:26

on the some of them seriously

14:28

they feel terrible for the colleagues

14:30

are seeking Liza assessing the a

14:32

thinking with this is going to

14:34

happen to me and waiting for

14:36

the ace oh size advantage we're

14:39

of an employer bringing people on

14:41

the June age and I'm feeling

14:43

explaining that this is we we

14:45

heating our we had no option

14:47

with considered the alternatives. These. Are

14:49

the reasons why is so important

14:52

as opposed to I'm calling people

14:54

to Amazing? Just out. Of the Blue

14:56

and announcing it. Of as a

14:58

result of whole lot of law and lack

15:00

of trust. This,

15:02

of course isn't confined just to

15:05

media though I'm It is likely

15:07

that there will be more companies

15:09

that go under and more people

15:11

who'll be going through these sorts

15:14

of redundancy situations. For.

15:17

Some of the things that employers. Can do to

15:20

do redundancy well and also.

15:23

What? Can employees. Do.

15:26

In this sort of situation, If you're if

15:28

you're in the scenario in you're waiting where you're wondering

15:30

if it could happen. I

15:34

think the key as

15:36

genuine consultations. Ah, that's

15:38

absolutely. True as a teenager,

15:40

sydney across the public sector.

15:42

these significant restructuring. The

15:44

moment and incidents across a private

15:47

seem to corporations aren't No one

15:49

is immune to this end. Our.

15:52

Waterways strikes me as that

15:54

even no redundancy is not

15:56

about the person ankle. Take

15:58

it personally, I think. My

16:00

me, What have I done wrong?

16:02

And. To

16:05

shoot me to explain to the

16:07

this is just about our as

16:09

has to such and a bubble

16:11

always spank that era and the

16:13

I have done which is resulted

16:15

unless so out. I think genuine

16:17

consultation as really important and X

16:19

theories are nations of why the

16:21

position he been selected as opposed

16:24

to somebody elses. I'm Anna at

16:26

least if you can explain that

16:28

and mean engage with the peace

16:30

and then. A meaningful way and senate

16:32

any proposals that they put up and

16:34

said a redeployment options the that. Latest

16:37

are they may feel that have.

16:39

Been. Treated. Fairly. That

16:41

is Employment Lawyer Susan hands together.