0:01

RNZ News at ten o'clock. Good

0:03

morning. I'm Sarah Bradley. Nelson's

0:06

mayor says a major earthquake would leave

0:08

the city without a fully functioning

0:10

hospital. A report from the

0:12

health agency, Tifatu Order,

0:14

shows more than one hundred hospital buildings

0:17

around the country are below thirty

0:19

four percent of the national building standard,

0:22

and many of them are critical for

0:24

any disaster response. Two

0:26

of those are at Nelson Hospital. in

0:29

a medium risk area for a major

0:31

quake. Mayor Nick Smith says

0:33

this report emphasizes the importance

0:35

of keeping the hospitals rebuild which

0:38

is already underway on schedule.

0:40

US basketball star

0:43

Britney Greiner has been welcomed home

0:45

in Texas after her ten

0:47

month detention in Russia. She

0:49

was sentenced to nine years in prison

0:51

after cannabis oil was found on her luggage.

0:54

but has been released in a prisoner swap.

0:56

Tony Saturday is in San Antonio,

0:58

San Antonio, where Greiner just

1:01

recently arrived. Here in Texas, there's

1:03

absolute exuberance. She is loved

1:05

here. Her parents sending out a statement

1:07

late Thursday night thinking BE BIDEN

1:09

ADMINISTRATION FOR WHAT THEY SAID WAS A TIRALLESS

1:12

EFFORT TO BRING BRITI BACK

1:14

HOME, BUT ALSO SAYING THAT THEIR PRayers

1:16

ARE WITH PAUL AND HIS family,

1:19

Paul Whelan, the former US Marine that

1:21

is serving a sixteen year sentence on espionage

1:23

charges in Russia was thought at the beginning

1:25

that perhaps this would be a two for one deal that

1:27

he would also be released in exchange for

1:29

Victor Boot. But in the end, that did

1:32

not happen, which has left some Republican

1:34

in particular are quite unhappy about

1:36

this deal.

1:37

The chairperson of the United

1:39

Fire Brogades Association is

1:41

supporting calls for an independent body

1:44

to investigate workplace complaints.

1:46

That's a key recommendation from a highly

1:49

critical report this week which

1:51

found fire and emergency complaints

1:53

process is still failing victims

1:55

of abuse and harassment. Peter

1:58

Dunn says his organization, which

2:00

repress since the country's more than eleven

2:02

thousand volunteer firefighters has

2:04

upgraded its own disciplinary process

2:07

in the past couple of years. The

2:09

former internal affairs minister says

2:11

the union is open to working more

2:13

closely with fire and emergency. My

2:15

own view when it goes back to the the time that I

2:17

was I'm not adverse to having a

2:19

stand alone complaint authority. We didn't

2:21

do it at the time simply because it was too big

2:23

a bite to sort of take on at that

2:25

point. but I'm more adverse to that sort of

2:27

proposal at this stage.

2:29

Police say drivers can

2:31

expect to see them carrying out checkpoints

2:34

across the country this summer. A

2:36

number was set up across the Bay of Plenty

2:38

on Thursday with two people returning

2:40

alcohol breath tests well over

2:42

the legal limit before midday. But

2:45

Bay of plenty police road manager, inspector

2:47

Brett Crow, says the majority

2:50

of motorists were doing all the right things.

2:52

inspect to cross as it was clear people

2:54

appreciated the visible police presence,

2:56

ensuring everyone's safety on

2:58

the roads. To sport, Argentina

3:01

and the Netherlands have gone to extra time

3:03

in their World Cup quarterfinal Zealand Qatar.

3:06

The game was locked at two all after

3:08

ninety minutes. The winner will meet

3:10

Croatia in the semi finals after

3:12

they upset Brazil in a penalty

3:14

shootout. That's the news.

3:17

This week on media watch, the clock's

3:19

ticking on the so called MIGA Media merger

3:21

isn't running out of steam as well as time.

3:24

We also ask our biggest national news

3:26

published show its reject regional news with

3:28

fewer reporters in its regional newsrooms,

3:30

and an American editor tells us about

3:32

news deserts where he comes from and what

3:34

he makes about local papers. colleagues

3:36

after he last looked. It's media watch

3:39

after nine on Sunday morning with American

3:41

again after the ten PM news on

3:43

Aaron'sZ National.

3:44

Zealand

3:45

we are funded through New Zealand on air,

3:48

Terreau, Iraangi, or Altair or

3:50

We're back with Kim Hill in just a moment,

3:52

but first, the short forecast from Met Service

3:54

to midnight tonight. Gisbon

3:56

High showers about the ranges.

3:58

The remainder of the North

3:59

showers especially this afternoon and

4:02

evening when some could be heavy with

4:04

hail and possible thunderstorms. For

4:06

Bola Nelson and Malbra, showers

4:09

isolated this afternoon and find spells

4:11

increasing. Zealand and fjordland

4:13

showers, some Zealand, and thunderstorms

4:16

possible south of Ross until evening.

4:18

For Canterbury mainly fine, but one

4:20

or two afternoon or evening shower south

4:22

of Timaru. Otago Southland

4:25

areas of low cloud and fog at

4:27

first this morning, then showers developing

4:29

around midday. some possibly

4:32

heavy with thunderstorms during the afternoon

4:34

and evening, especially in the south

4:36

and east. And for the Chatham Islands, a few

4:38

showers turning to rain this evening possibly

4:40

heavy with thunderstorms. You're listening

4:43

to RNZ National. It's coming up to

4:45

five minutes past ten. I'll have more

4:47

news and weather for you at eleven.

5:06

A massive surge of innovation.

5:10

One hundred and fifty years ago transformed

5:12

global economic

5:12

growth. And

5:15

what followed was

5:17

what my next guess calls

5:18

the long twentieth century.

5:22

Brad, no relation.

5:24

Professor of Economic Australia,

5:27

Berkeley has written a large

5:30

book called towards

5:32

utopia in which she

5:34

describes

5:35

the end of our

5:39

near universal dire material

5:41

poverty, and

5:44

our failure to fulfill

5:46

people's

5:46

dreams. He

5:49

joins

5:50

me now. Hello? Hello.

5:52

I'm very happy to be here. I'm

5:55

very happy to

5:55

have you here. What happened

5:58

in the beginning

6:01

of

6:01

this long century eighteen

6:03

seventy that

6:05

spark table. Before eighteen

6:07

before eighteen seventy, you know,

6:09

unless you were very, like,

6:12

either upper class

6:14

or living in a very

6:16

special place. Of

6:18

which New Zealand and also then most of

6:20

the United States were very special

6:22

places. But if you

6:24

did not live there and were not upper

6:26

class, you

6:28

had the basic problem that

6:30

the world was back in the battle

6:33

days of Thomas Robert Malthus.

6:35

in

6:35

which each time technology

6:38

advances, human numbers

6:40

expand and so the size of your farm

6:42

decreases. and you can barely

6:44

hold body and soul together.

6:47

Around eighteen seventy, however, we

6:49

had technological change take

6:51

off like a rocket. so

6:53

that humanity's technological competence

6:56

then doubled every generation, which

6:58

meant that for the first time, humanity

7:00

could actually bake a sufficiently large

7:03

economic pie for

7:05

people to have enough. so

7:07

it's how we've been grappling with the fact

7:09

that we'll soon be able to produce

7:12

a large enough economic pie for everyone

7:14

to have enough. then

7:16

our collective failures to successfully

7:18

manage to slice

7:20

and paste the pie to equitably distribute

7:23

and possibly utilize it. that

7:25

has driven most of the history

7:27

of the twentieth century. So it's

7:29

inequity. That is the

7:31

curse. of the twentieth century.

7:33

And also, I'd say poor utilization.

7:36

Right? That is, you

7:39

know, right now, Russia

7:41

Muscovy is compared to all

7:43

past civilizations, you know, an

7:45

immensely wealthy civilization. Zealand

7:49

do you know if if I were

7:51

sitting in Moscow if I wanted to persuade

7:54

the Ukrainians that they were actually

7:56

just a regional Russian ethnicity

7:58

rather than separate nations.

8:00

You know, I would use that wealth

8:02

and creativity. I would send

8:04

your

8:05

orcas strolls around to play the works

8:07

of Mysorski and Seikovsky. Yeah.

8:10

I would send Bolshoi ballet tour

8:12

and company to Ukrainian cities.

8:14

I would hire poets to

8:16

read the works of Puschkin in public squares.

8:18

yet the

8:21

government of Muscovy is right now

8:23

sending killer robots over the

8:25

skies of Ukraine to kill people and

8:27

blow them up. you know,

8:29

that is it's not just inequitable

8:32

distribution. It's also mal utilized

8:34

as a failure to utilize is proper.

8:36

You know, failure to think

8:38

that our wealth is that we need to

8:40

use our wealth wisely and wealth.

8:42

to create a society in which people

8:45

can feel safe and secure and be

8:47

healthy and happy. Let's

8:48

go back to eighteen seventy. What

8:50

was it kicked it

8:50

all off. You've got

8:51

globalization, industrial

8:54

research laboratories, and

8:56

the MOGI Corporation. All

8:58

those will presumably link together

9:00

in some way? Yes. Yes.

9:02

Zealand, you

9:04

know, I'm getting a lot of pushback

9:06

from various people. of

9:08

saying that this is the keynote, you

9:11

know, that up at my

9:13

own business school here at Berkeley, you

9:15

know, professor David hour he always made a

9:17

big deal about how it was

9:19

the creation of the engineering profession

9:21

in the eighteen forties. that

9:24

did it as railroad spread

9:27

started to spread across the world.

9:29

And so you really needed

9:31

engineers who understood how they worked

9:33

and could repair And that

9:35

was kind of the key moment

9:37

than the actual

9:40

than the key moment at which

9:42

things changed. and I

9:44

was lectured by an hour by a UCLA

9:47

professor about how the real

9:49

change comes, you know, within

9:51

three hundred miles of board of

9:53

Dover in the fifteen

9:55

hundred that would change from a society

9:57

of

9:58

and

9:59

knights and lords

10:02

to a society of workers, farmers,

10:05

craftsmen, mercenaries, and artisan.

10:06

But whenever

10:09

the big change did take place, we

10:11

really do see invisible. We

10:14

really do not see invisible

10:16

in anything that matters

10:18

much for anyone except the upper

10:20

class. you know, around eighteen

10:22

seventy.

10:22

Yeah. Tell

10:25

me then why you finish

10:27

in twenty ten. Why have

10:29

you set those parameters?

10:31

Well, you know, like Is that

10:34

so much better? finish somewhere. Right?

10:36

It's better about this year's time. finish

10:38

somewhere. Yeah. You're writing

10:40

a book. Right? And books

10:42

only work if there's stories. And

10:44

stories have to have beginnings and

10:46

middles and ends. And

10:48

so even if the thing

10:50

doesn't really have an end, you

10:52

kinda got to assign it an

10:54

end, because otherwise we can

10:56

barely think about it. You know, we very much

10:58

want the end and we

11:00

want the end to be a good end.

11:02

You know, I could

11:05

have said it ended in two thousand

11:07

and one when the kind of

11:10

history of greatly

11:12

increasing wealth and how do

11:14

we figure out how to manage the fact that

11:16

we're a civilization vastly

11:18

wealthier than ever before. But

11:20

it looks like now stories being

11:22

interrupted by the return of

11:24

signs of religious war that

11:27

we haven't seen for centuries.

11:30

I couldn't cut it short in two thousand

11:32

and three saying that most

11:34

of what had happened since eighteen

11:36

seventy. was first

11:38

Great Britain and then the United

11:41

least thinking it was kind of a

11:43

relatively benevolent hegemon. leading

11:45

to a world of greater peace and

11:47

prosperity that in two thousand and three, the

11:49

United States decides it's just

11:51

gonna start acting like another great

11:53

power. and will no they'd

11:56

say, be willing to put its interests

11:58

below those of the system,

11:59

international system as a

12:02

whole I'm a I just want to let you

12:04

Can I just

12:04

ask you on behalf of

12:07

on behalf of the people who

12:09

may want to

12:09

interrupt you at this point? and

12:12

say the US is

12:14

long acted in its own interests. Surely.

12:17

Well,

12:17

it has long acted in its

12:20

own interests. that there has

12:22

been a there has

12:24

at least been a strong faction within

12:26

the US thinking that

12:28

a world of greater

12:31

peace and greater prosperity is,

12:33

in fact, in the US run

12:36

interest. And, you know, you can

12:38

argue that that faction in the US

12:40

has been completely deceiving itself.

12:42

And that's actually been throwing its

12:44

weight around a

12:47

Zealand with little concern for

12:50

anyone else. You know, I

12:52

remember when I was working for Bill

12:54

Clinton, he went to New Zealand and

12:56

there were complaints because,

12:58

you know, his commerce department had

13:00

just slapped import quotas

13:02

on Lam from New Zealand. for

13:04

some reason that struck best economists in

13:06

the administration is really stupid.

13:09

And Clinton's reaction to

13:11

The New Zealand Zealand Minister's protest

13:13

where well you can sue us at the WTO.

13:17

There's a forum of resolving this

13:19

dispute. and shrugged his shoulders and

13:21

went on. Yep. But

13:23

I do think there was a difference

13:25

between, say, a George h

13:27

w Bush. who would

13:29

say that the US military is

13:31

at the disposal of the security

13:33

council, and that because

13:35

the security council has not

13:37

authorized the US Army to

13:39

go into Iraq. It will not,

13:41

you know, and his son George

13:43

W. Bush. I

13:46

also could have ended in two thousand and

13:48

six when it seems that,

13:50

you know, our global

13:53

rate of wealth advancements, those way,

13:55

way down.

13:56

There's two thousand and eight when it becomes

13:59

plain that we've

13:59

forgotten everything about stabilizing

14:02

the financial system for general

14:04

prosperity. I could say, in

14:06

twenty ten,

14:08

when

14:08

we predict,

14:10

we've forgotten how to get

14:12

an economy back to full employment

14:14

after a crisis. You know,

14:16

I could talk about the rising of

14:18

anti endemic pedic populist

14:20

movements. Perhaps most of all, I

14:22

could talk about global warming

14:24

coming to the forefront as

14:26

a civilization shaking threat.

14:29

on all

14:31

of these things happen after

14:33

two thousand. And, you know, each

14:35

of them does a little bit to shift

14:38

history away from. We're

14:41

getting vastly richer. We'll be figure

14:43

out how to equitably distribute and

14:45

properly utilize our wealth. mid

14:47

shift history into other channels

14:49

that are not as clear. And

14:51

I picked two thousand and ten as kind of

14:53

halfway between. Right.

14:55

Is it too simplistic to

14:58

say to you that the very

15:00

growth

15:01

unleashed in the

15:02

eighteen seventies? was,

15:04

in fact, a disaster in itself.

15:07

For climate

15:09

change

15:12

you think

15:15

that it has

15:16

what? It

15:18

has not yet, you know,

15:20

been a disaster in itself.

15:22

for climate change reasons.

15:25

Right? If

15:28

we do not properly handle it, I

15:30

think it will become a significant

15:32

disaster for climate change reasons over

15:34

the next two generations that

15:38

we still have time. And

15:41

indeed, I think the grand narrative of

15:43

the twenty first century will be

15:45

about whether we actually use

15:47

that time wisely and

15:49

well or whether we waste more of

15:51

it. As we wasted

15:53

the

15:55

Oh, wow.

15:58

Next

15:58

year, it's going to be

15:59

thirty years since,

16:02

you know, Bill Clinton and Al Gore

16:04

got within one vote

16:06

of imposing a carbon

16:09

tax on the US economy

16:11

thus providing enormous incentives

16:13

to shift away from greenhouse

16:15

gas control producing

16:19

energy systems. You know, and

16:21

they got within one boat. You

16:23

know, there were I think

16:25

forty three Republican senators

16:27

and six other Democratic

16:29

senators who were hiding

16:31

behind senator Boris of Oklahoma.

16:34

saying no, I will not vote for

16:36

this vote. And so

16:38

it failed to pass. And

16:42

We've lost thirty years

16:44

during which we could have been moving

16:46

away from burning things

16:48

that put carbon dioxide into the

16:50

air and warm the plant. and during

16:53

which we've elected a

16:55

climate change denier.

16:58

Yes. Yes. We did do that.

17:00

We did do that. So there is there's

17:02

no you know the consequence. There's not a

17:04

great deal of improvement. There's not a great deal

17:07

of improvement

17:07

going on when you call, and this is

17:10

the last sentence of your book.

17:12

A new story which needs a new grand

17:15

narrative that we do

17:17

not yet know has begun.

17:19

What grounds do you have

17:21

for optimism given that we've messed up

17:23

the last century?

17:25

Well,

17:25

as I would say that

17:28

we've mess, we've created the

17:30

situation in which we may well

17:32

mess up the next century.

17:34

you know, back in eighteen

17:37

seventy, you know, eighty

17:39

percent of the human race is

17:41

really living on something like three

17:43

dollars a day. that the

17:46

tempo person is going to spend at

17:48

least two hours a day back in eighteen

17:50

seventy thinking about how hungry

17:52

they are. and how it would be great to have just a

17:54

few more calories. The people

17:58

saw half their babies die

17:59

before the age of five.

18:02

You know, we are

18:05

very far away from that

18:07

world now. one

18:09

in which people are desperately poor that

18:11

your average male child is

18:13

only going to be five foot four.

18:17

or

18:17

five foot five at adult DeLong.

18:19

If they survive, you know, fifty

18:21

percent under five childhood mortality.

18:25

you know,

18:26

we have wealth that is

18:29

beyond the imagining

18:31

of previous generations. We're

18:34

also slowly clicking the planet. And

18:37

indeed, it really looks this year

18:39

like the monsoon was

18:41

three hundred miles off.

18:44

in Asia, with the

18:46

consequence of Pakistan being

18:48

underwater in the Yangtze River ahead of

18:50

five meters below where it

18:52

was supposed to be. You

18:54

know, yes, we have created

18:56

the situations for a great disaster

18:58

over the course of the next century.

19:00

should we fail to

19:02

manage global warming? And

19:06

it is kind of scary that I am able

19:08

to find remarkably few people who are even willing to

19:10

say global warming out in public.

19:12

But instead, it's always

19:15

climate change. And,

19:17

you know, climate change sounds

19:19

much less serious to my ear

19:21

at least than the fact

19:23

that we're warming up the

19:26

globe to temperatures, which

19:28

do not really fit the the

19:30

civilization that we have constructed.

19:35

for optimism, you have to think there are

19:37

eight billion of us. And even though individually,

19:40

we are

19:42

Individually, we are barely

19:44

able to remember where we left our

19:46

keys last night. But

19:49

collectively and properly organized, the

19:51

eight billion of us are certainly smart to think

19:53

of a way out of us. Well, you

19:55

know, I've just done an interview

19:57

with an astrophysicist who's

19:58

been talking about

20:00

I mean, just generally,

20:02

what's happened in the year in space, but space

20:04

tourism Zealand maybe

20:06

an an outpost on the moon and

20:08

moving to Mars. I

20:10

What do

20:11

you feel

20:13

about that? You know, I

20:15

I feel a bit conflicted to

20:17

say the least. having

20:19

done a lot of bad things

20:22

to the climate specifically

20:26

and exploitation of

20:28

the earth resources. We want

20:30

to hike off into space

20:33

and do some more of

20:35

it. How

20:35

do you feel about that given your

20:37

intense study of

20:38

the passenger? It's going to be

20:40

it's going to

20:41

be really difficult insanely

20:45

expensive because you

20:47

have to carry around a

20:49

sufficiently large piece of earth

20:51

with you. Right? We can

20:53

only survive on Earth. We can't

20:55

survive on the moon, and we can't

20:57

survive on Mars. and

20:59

it's not simply a case of building a ship

21:01

that doesn't leak and pumping an

21:04

atmosphere into it or

21:06

erecting a dome on the surface

21:08

of Mars and then pressurizing it

21:10

with oxygen and living inside

21:12

of it, you know, that

21:14

It's going to be

21:17

incredibly expensive, you

21:19

know, to keep oxygen

21:21

breathing monkeys alive. outside

21:25

of once you get far off Earth for

21:27

more than the smallest, you

21:29

know, amounts of margins.

21:32

I think it's much more likely that it will be

21:34

our robots. And

21:37

us operating machines, which

21:39

we view through the cameras

21:41

on them, that are in outer

21:43

space, you know, rather than

21:45

people. I mean,

21:47

my

21:47

point is, do you not think

21:49

we should attend to

21:53

things here on earth, primarily?

21:55

Well, you

21:57

know, for a long

22:00

certainly for a long long time, It's

22:02

going to be infinitely easier

22:05

and infinitely more useful

22:07

and productive to improve human

22:09

life on earth. than

22:11

to try to terraform Mars

22:13

or the moon. I don't even

22:15

know how he would go think about going

22:17

about starting with a number.

22:21

that

22:21

these are things

22:22

that are going to be enormous resource

22:25

sinks. And in general,

22:27

you know, humans don't do things

22:30

unless they can at least convince themselves that what they're

22:32

doing is for the produce more

22:34

resources than it consumes, you

22:36

know, that you

22:38

spend some resources into it,

22:40

and then you get them back and you

22:42

can reinvest them. But if you're

22:44

just sending resources in, then

22:46

nothing ever is coming back. You know, it's very hard

22:49

to see how

22:51

that gets going and gets sustained. And

22:53

no, I do not think there are

22:56

enough billionaires would want to spend two weeks in

22:58

outer space to really

23:00

fund the Amar's

23:02

expertise. I'm sorry

23:04

to ask you that because it was a bit of a red

23:06

herring. The book is quite detailed and ever to this.

23:08

Yeah. Let me ask you.

23:10

is can how much

23:13

of your long centuries development

23:18

travioles can be explained

23:21

by Frederick Vornaic on

23:23

the one hand and Karl

23:25

Polanyi on the other. the

23:29

pendulum swing between the free market

23:31

and the state's

23:32

intervention. New Liberals and this is

23:34

state control. No. No.

23:36

there's a mod of it, you know. One

23:39

way to look

23:41

at it, right, that, you know, in the

23:43

year one thousand, we kind of have

23:46

mutual agricultural technologies.

23:48

And by the year sixteen

23:51

fifty, you

23:51

know, we have what British

23:53

moral philosophers used to call

23:55

commercial society. You know,

23:57

you figured out you need to put nitrogen

23:59

on your fields and you

24:02

the the single peasant is specializing

24:04

in producing, you know,

24:06

say, maze or heat or

24:09

whatever. But then in

24:11

eighteen seventy, you have a steam

24:13

power economy. And then in

24:15

nineteen ten, you have

24:17

a, you know, electricity,

24:19

early electricity Zealand

24:22

combustion engines and organic chemicals

24:25

economy. in nineteen fifty, you

24:27

have a mass production economy. And in

24:29

nineteen ninety, you have a global value chain

24:32

DeLong. And you know, coming to

24:34

today we're approaching an info biotech

24:37

economy. You know, each of these changes is

24:39

of about the same magnitude. And

24:42

on top of the changing forces of production,

24:44

you know, well,

24:45

you have to build a society.

24:47

Zealand

24:49

as people work in different ways

24:51

and see very different things,

24:53

the kind of economic and

24:55

social and political relations

24:57

Zealand institutions that you build on top of

24:59

that, you know, that have

25:01

to change too. You

25:03

can't simply have your william

25:06

the onfer and his three hundred Mormon

25:09

thugs running around with their

25:11

swords, ruling a society that is,

25:13

you know, has lots of steam engines

25:15

in it. So

25:18

you know, the hardware underpinning society,

25:20

the technological hardware is

25:23

changing. and it goes

25:25

from changing over six hundred

25:27

years to changing over two

25:29

centuries. And then the changes

25:31

come every forty years.

25:33

since eighteen seventy. And as the hardware

25:36

changes, you you have to radically rewrite

25:40

the socio eco political

25:43

software that human beings operate

25:47

with, the the soft the software of society has

25:49

to be rewritten on the fly

25:51

too because

25:53

whatever social patterns and institutions

25:55

you had a generation ago, won't

25:57

works now. And as

25:59

you

25:59

rewrite them, there's always this

26:02

huge tension between

26:05

pushing for the market

26:07

economy as a very productive thing,

26:10

get people to incentivize, deploying

26:13

using new technologies on the one

26:15

hand. And the fact that people

26:17

simply will not stand for living in a society

26:20

where we're the only rights that matter

26:22

our property rights and the

26:24

only people who have any social

26:27

power and voice are the rich. And so

26:29

we have these

26:31

pendulum oscillating back and forth

26:33

between in this generation

26:35

we think there ought to be more market in the

26:38

mix. And in this generation, we have to

26:40

regulate and control the market. And in

26:42

this generation, we have to

26:44

supplement it. And in this generation, we have to greatly

26:46

prune it back.

26:48

And indeed, I

26:50

think if you all me how much of the

26:52

economic political history

26:54

since eighteen seventy. It has

26:56

been this tug of war

26:58

generation by generation about

27:00

how we have to rewrite the institute

27:03

human institutions of society,

27:06

and we have to do so whether

27:08

we're going to put pride pride

27:10

of place for the market system and let

27:12

it rip or pride of price and regulating

27:15

and controlling it, then make sure it stays

27:17

in its stays

27:19

properly constrained. But

27:21

that is indeed, I think, most of it.

27:23

And and

27:24

can we never get it

27:26

exact clear right. Timing is everything

27:28

Well, so far we've failed.

27:30

So far we've failed.

27:33

Right? starting around nineteen eighty, we seem to have

27:35

settled on something called neo

27:37

liberalism. You know, at least

27:39

Ronald Reagan and Margaret latchier

27:41

were convincingly reelected by enthusiastic

27:44

majorities. And ever since,

27:46

people have been kinda trying to emulate

27:48

from them or at least trying to hide some of their

27:50

differences from them. And

27:52

yet, nobody right now seems to

27:54

like quote, neo liberalism.

27:57

unquote, whatever that means. Well, can you define

27:59

us?

27:59

because, I mean, I've spoken to people

28:02

who DeLong that it's a real

28:04

thing

28:04

at all. No.

28:06

It

28:07

certainly is. Right?

28:09

That in you

28:11

can say that there's left me

28:14

on the drill something. Right? Which is

28:16

that, you know,

28:17

social democracy as we knew

28:20

it was

28:22

too bureaucratic. and

28:24

too classified and

28:26

too many kind of government officials

28:29

telling you what to do, and

28:31

too many people who've managed

28:34

to get a sufficiently powerful place

28:36

in the economy and then had

28:38

managed to construct some way that they could

28:40

hold up the rest of the population.

28:43

and get more than their share.

28:46

And that what we really needed to

28:48

do was to cut back on

28:50

bureaucracy, to cut

28:52

back on established economic

28:54

positions Zealand to

28:57

recognize that lots of the

28:59

time The market say

29:01

market system, which allows people to

29:03

use their ingenuity and do

29:05

lots of things. But lots

29:06

of the time, a market mechanism can

29:09

be a better road to a desired

29:11

social democratic outcome

29:13

than having the government command and

29:15

control of what it wants

29:17

to do. And

29:18

you could say that that's neolibertism.

29:21

Or

29:21

you could

29:23

say that neolibertism is that

29:25

the government is always going to box it

29:28

up. and that the

29:28

best you can do is

29:31

simply shrink the government as far as

29:33

possible. Zealand,

29:35

you know, while you recognize the

29:37

distribution of property is unfair, having

29:40

the market system run everything

29:42

with minimal regulation that

29:45

is at least productive and creates

29:47

Zealand,

29:48

you know, if you were then Friedrich von

29:51

Hayek, you would say, well, that's

29:53

the best we can do if we

29:55

try to actually monkey

29:57

with the system so we get not

29:59

only immense

29:59

wealth, but social justice will break

30:02

the and put

30:03

ourselves on the road to serve

30:06

them. You know? But

30:06

there are also a good many people

30:09

who think that And

30:11

think that if the market has

30:13

made them rich, it's deserved

30:15

because it's because of their own hard

30:17

work and skill. And

30:19

thus also that the lack

30:21

of wealth that the market has made someone

30:23

else poor, it's because of

30:25

their lack of hard work and their lack of

30:28

skill, and that in fact the poor deserve

30:30

to be poor. Have we that Have

30:32

we done of income inequality

30:34

is not really a bug but

30:36

a feature of this. No. Well,

30:38

no.

30:38

I mean, were currently as are

30:41

you sizing -- Yes. -- sizing

30:43

inflation. Yeah. And we

30:45

are told that in order

30:47

to bring inflation down,

30:49

people are going to have

30:50

to be out of work.

30:52

I mean, that's

30:53

the the the

30:55

the devil's deal that we've

30:57

reached. in these times? Is

30:59

it not? It

31:01

seems to be what the Federal

31:04

Reserve is drifting towards. Right?

31:06

that there's

31:09

too much spending in the system

31:12

because we gave too many

31:14

people, too many titles to

31:16

money during the Zealand

31:18

you know, we have to cut back

31:21

spending somehow so that

31:23

people aren't trying to buy more

31:25

stuff than we can actually produce.

31:27

You know what? How do

31:30

you get people to cut back on their spending? Will

31:32

you do so by making them feel

31:34

poor? And what's the best

31:36

way to make someone feel poor,

31:38

best in the sense of most efficient. It's

31:40

for them not to have a job, then

31:43

they can heal really,

31:46

really poor. and

31:46

stop spending

31:49

nearly as much.

31:51

Yeah.

31:52

That's the hope or

31:54

at least that's the fear. that

31:56

we've managed to wedge ourselves into this

31:59

particular position. Have

32:00

we run ourselves systems.

32:04

And we run out of ideologies. I

32:06

mean, we've talked about nearer liberalism,

32:08

the free market, and we've talked about socialism.

32:11

We haven't talked about fascism.

32:13

which is third leg of

32:16

the trifecta, if you like.

32:19

Yes. Is is there

32:22

a way of

32:24

running things that

32:26

is optimum or are we

32:29

all so

32:29

different, such completely different

32:32

societies. They will all have to wear

32:34

good on their own. We can't now

32:36

because of globalization.

32:39

No. No. Well,

32:42

you

32:42

know, as I say, we do not seem

32:45

to have gotten managed to get it

32:47

right. You know, I mean, The

32:49

old

32:50

belief, the pre eighteen seventy

32:53

belief, was that, you

32:55

know, I'm Look, if

32:57

it's back before eighteen seventy,

33:00

and if your

33:02

technology is too

33:04

underdeveloped, then resources

33:06

are too scarce, then human populations

33:08

are too great, for there to

33:10

be any chance of baking

33:12

a sufficiently large economic pie

33:14

for everyone to have enough. Well,

33:17

then if you're going to have enough

33:19

for yourself, you either

33:22

have to be in the right place at the right

33:24

time, you know, move to

33:26

New Zealand with twenty

33:28

sheep and grab a very large

33:30

stretch of land with grass on which

33:32

the sheep can then eat and

33:35

do well. Or you

33:37

have to become part of a

33:39

ruling elite and then grab

33:41

what you need for your enough

33:43

from other people.

33:45

So

33:46

before eighteen seventy, most

33:48

of what governance and politics has to be

33:51

is, you know, becoming a protection

33:53

racket, running a force

33:55

and fraud domination index

33:58

exploitation game on the rest of

34:00

humanity. And

34:02

that's the reason that human society

34:04

is in many ways so awful that

34:07

eighteen seventy. But

34:09

people thought back then,

34:11

suppose we actually do manage

34:13

to get technologies of

34:16

abundance. then it's not going to be worth anyone's while

34:18

in order to engage

34:20

in this kind of force and

34:23

fraud domination and exploitation. you

34:27

know, just as you get a bunch of dogs in a room

34:29

and as long as there are

34:31

three more bones than

34:33

there are dogs, they

34:35

don't fight over the bones if

34:37

the bones

34:37

are all about the same

34:39

size. And

34:42

so

34:43

technically practically, everyone

34:44

thought that if we could get material abundance,

34:46

if we could bake a sufficiently large

34:50

economic pie. Then the

34:51

problems of slicing and tasting,

34:53

the problems of equitably distributing

34:56

also

34:58

utilize so that people could be

35:00

all safe and secure

35:00

and be healthy and happy.

35:04

The problems

35:06

of utilizing would

35:07

be relatively easy to solve

35:09

once we've solved the problem of

35:11

figuring out how to

35:14

produce enough. and

35:14

yet it's these problems of distribution and utilization that

35:17

do pretty much completely

35:20

flummox us. Is it

35:22

that word flummox? completely flummox. Is

35:24

it that word flummox? Yeah. Is it

35:26

that we don't quite know

35:28

how to do it? Or We

35:30

are deliberately not doing

35:32

it because in order for the system

35:34

to work, there have to be

35:36

losers as well as

35:38

winners. No. Well,

35:40

who are the we

35:42

who are doing this? Right?

35:46

That

35:46

is things

35:47

are done either by people

35:49

who aim at doing it or things are

35:51

done by the fact that people's actions

35:54

aiming at different goals up

35:56

in some massive, you know,

35:58

automobile wreck on

35:59

the highway and

36:00

something happens that nobody had

36:04

intended. You no.

36:06

are no

36:11

Consider Mitt Romney Right? The Mitt

36:13

Romney Republican presidential candidate in the United States

36:16

in two thousand and twelve. And,

36:18

you know, now

36:21

senator from Utah. And, you know, not my least

36:23

favorite senator, that he's, I

36:25

think, number fifty

36:28

three. in the hundred

36:30

senators in terms of how much I

36:32

like. And, you know, he's not,

36:34

you know, a bad

36:36

man. he goes to church. He loves his

36:39

family when he's in charge of

36:41

an organization. He strives

36:43

it most as far hard as he

36:45

can to treat the worker as well. and

36:47

to make the administration accomplish.

36:50

It's it's prepared some

36:52

objectives with as little waste

36:54

as possible. And

36:54

did you get Mitt

36:56

Romney alone in a room with

36:58

Republican donors in two thousand

37:02

and twelve? when he

37:04

starts talking about how forty seven

37:06

percent of the American

37:08

people, you know, are the base of the

37:10

Democratic Brad. and about how

37:12

they're so used to getting free

37:14

stuff that they do not deserve from

37:16

the government. And

37:18

so as a result, they're addicted

37:20

the idea that they deserve good things. And so,

37:23

you know, he's never going to

37:25

be able to get them

37:28

to straighten up and

37:30

figure out that they need to take responsibility

37:32

for their own lives.

37:34

And so he can't you'll be

37:37

worried about them or can't be concerned about them or can't

37:39

really take them into account in any

37:41

way because, you

37:43

know, they're irredeemable.

37:45

And

37:46

this

37:48

kind of sense on his part,

37:50

you know, that, you know,

37:52

that society is

37:54

supposed to be a great mutual,

37:57

the you

37:58

know, arena of interdependence in

38:00

which everyone does

38:02

their share and gets, you know, what they

38:04

deserve and gets rewards that they have

38:06

earned for.

38:10

that this is greatly violated by the order of society

38:12

as we have it now and

38:16

that the fact that

38:18

some people are getting

38:20

more than faith than he thinks

38:22

they deserve is an enormous

38:26

insult to the way things work, and they really ought to be

38:28

poor. And especially, they

38:30

ought not to be able to elect the

38:32

president who

38:34

they like. even

38:34

ripmeat romney. I

38:36

look forward to volume two.

38:39

Professor Brad

38:42

DeLong. talking

38:43

about his towards

38:46

utopia economic

38:48

history of the twentieth century.