0:00

You're listening to the micro version of

0:02

the Savage Lovecast at savage.love. When

0:23

Giorgia Maloney was first running for office,

0:25

she leads the Brothers of Italy party.

0:28

She campaigned, as fascists always do,

0:30

against gays and lesbians. Maloney

0:33

staged huge Trump-style rallies in Rome

0:35

during her successful campaign in 2022.

0:39

And those Trump rallies are modeled on rallies

0:41

held by Hitler and Mussolini in the 30s,

0:43

so Maloney kind of closed that

0:45

loop. At Maloney's rallies,

0:47

she described herself as a simple

0:50

Christian mom who believed children should

0:52

only be raised by married heterosexual

0:54

parents. After taking power

0:56

in October of 2022, the Maloney

0:58

government forced Italian cities to

1:01

rescind birth certificates that had already

1:03

been issued to same-sex couples that

1:05

listed both parents, creating,

1:08

as the BBC described them, orphans

1:10

by decree. And Maloney's

1:12

party is now moving to make surrogacy

1:14

abroad a crime in Italy that can

1:16

be punished retroactively with fines

1:18

and jail terms. Since

1:21

mostly gay male couples have sought surrogacy abroad,

1:24

gay couples with kids face the prospect

1:26

of being jailed and having their kids

1:29

taken from them. One gay couple,

1:31

Claudio Ndavid, profiled in the BBC,

1:33

is now preparing to flee Italy.

1:35

I'm afraid that our child won't

1:38

have parents because we will

1:40

be in jail, Claudio said. It's

1:43

grim. I'm old enough

1:45

to remember when social conservatives and other fascists

1:47

used to attack gays and lesbians because we

1:50

didn't have kids. They worried

1:52

straight people would look at

1:54

our hedonistic, child-free, carefree lifestyles

1:57

and get ideas. And

1:59

then if straight people started living like gay people, society

2:02

would collapse. The human race would

2:04

go extinct. Now social

2:06

conservatives and other fascists are out

2:08

there attacking gay people for

2:11

having kids. And Italy,

2:13

with its collapsing birth rates, really does

2:15

need all the kids it can get.

2:18

So it seems that no matter what we do,

2:20

no matter how we live, it's never good enough.

2:22

We are never good enough. It's

2:25

tempting to say that the problem isn't how we

2:27

live, but that we live, and they want to

2:29

live in a world where we don't exist. But

2:32

if we didn't exist, they

2:34

would invent us because scapegoating

2:36

queers makes it possible for autocrats

2:38

leading corrupt systems to distract attention

2:40

away from their crimes, in the

2:43

case of Vladimir Putin, or

2:45

from their own personal shortcomings, in

2:48

the case of Georgia Maloney. So

2:50

remember, Maloney is a mom. She has a

2:53

child, and she may be

2:55

a Christian. Basically, Christians can self-ID. You

2:57

say, you're a Christian, you're a Christian,

2:59

no religion recognition

3:02

certificate required. But

3:04

traditional values? Georgia

3:06

Maloney? She

3:08

had her child, a daughter, out

3:11

of wedlock with her boyfriend, Italian

3:13

news presenter Andrea Jim

3:15

Bruno, who was recently caught on

3:17

a hot mic propositioning a colleague. He asked

3:19

the woman if he could touch his balls

3:21

while they talked. The woman pointed out that

3:24

he was already touching his balls, and

3:26

then he told her he was having an affair

3:28

and invited the woman to have a threesome with

3:30

him or a foursome. It is

3:32

unclear from the tape whether that threesome or

3:35

foursome would involve Maloney or

3:38

his affair partner or both. After

3:41

the recording leaked, Maloney dumped her boyfriend,

3:43

the man she had a child with

3:45

out of wedlock, and returned to attacking

3:47

gays and lesbians who are the real

3:49

problem after all. Look over there, gay

3:52

and lesbian parents, oh my. Fucking

3:55

social conservatives, fucking fascist man. They're all

3:57

the same. Traditional values for

3:59

these. Whatever the fuck I want

4:01

for me sexual morality for thee threesomes

4:03

with my hot TV star boyfriend for

4:06

me Remember Jerry Falwell

4:08

jr. Sexual morality for thee hot cuckold threesomes

4:10

with my wife and the pool boy for

4:12

me And it has ever

4:15

been thus in the 1980s TV preacher

4:17

Jimmy Swaggart got rich preaching fire breathing

4:19

sermons condemning pornography and prostitution And

4:22

was caught in a hotel room with you're never

4:24

gonna guess Prostitutes and porn

4:27

in the 90s Newt Gingrich led the impeachment

4:29

of Bill Clinton for getting a blowjob from

4:31

someone who wasn't his wife While

4:33

he was getting his dick sucked by someone

4:36

who wasn't his wife in

4:38

the aughts mega church pastor Ted Haggard

4:40

got rich and famous preaching against the

4:42

depraved homosexual lifestyle Until

4:44

he got caught using math and having gay

4:46

sex with a rent boy Which

4:49

brings us to Bridget Ziegler and the moms

4:51

for Liberty moms for Liberty or as scary

4:53

Larry calls him on Twitter moms

4:56

for Liberty aka hags for

4:58

Hitler aka the minivan Taliban

5:00

aka the twat sees aka

5:02

Mary KKK aka assholes with

5:05

casseroles They're the

5:07

right-wing group of rabidly anti LGBT

5:09

moms who've been taking over school

5:11

boards in red states and attacking

5:13

gay families and Purging libraries

5:15

of books that mention the existence of

5:17

gay people or trans kids along with

5:20

books that discuss slavery or racism They

5:23

are the group that has been

5:25

leading attacks on gay kids and trans

5:27

kids and GSAs and pushing don't

5:29

say gay laws And it turns out

5:31

that Bridget Ziegler and her husband Christian when

5:34

they're not attacking gay people are

5:36

having threesomes with other women and

5:39

as anyone who's ever had an MFF or Mmf

5:42

threesome can tell you and I lost my

5:44

virginity and an MMF threesome and I am

5:46

telling you there is always a little gay

5:48

shit going on in one of those At

5:52

the very least some gay adjacent shit

5:54

going on during those and

5:56

according to the woman who is Bridget and Christian

5:58

Ziegler's threesome partner She was in it

6:00

for the Bridget of it, not the

6:03

Christian of it. She was there for the pussy,

6:05

not the dick. And she's now accused

6:08

Christian of raping her when Bridget wasn't

6:10

there, and she wasn't interested in having

6:12

sex with Christian, and filming it. Police

6:15

are investigating. Police already have in

6:17

their possession the tape. There is

6:19

an epic piece about this scandal

6:21

by Kate Bricklet at the Daily

6:23

Beast. I recommend reading it. Bridget

6:26

Ziegler has resigned from Moms for Liberty,

6:28

pushed out, but currently still sits on

6:30

the Sarasota school board, where

6:32

she pushed through policies that made

6:34

gay and lesbian kids unsafe while

6:37

she was out there eating pussy

6:39

herself. That school board is

6:41

meeting today, and Ziegler is going to

6:43

be asked to resign. Christian

6:45

Ziegler, her husband, is the chair of

6:48

the Republican Party of Florida. He has

6:50

already been asked to resign from that

6:52

position, but he has refused. Because

6:55

why would he resign over a rape

6:57

accusation when the GOP is led by

6:59

a man who's been convicted of rape?

7:04

Here we are again, yet again. I

7:07

don't think the Maloney scandal or the Ziegler

7:09

scandal teaches us anything we already didn't know.

7:12

There are basically two kinds of social

7:14

conservatives out there who are attacking other

7:17

people for their sex lives. The

7:19

hypocrites who got caught, the

7:22

swaggerts, haggards, gingriches, Maloney's, and

7:24

Ziegler's, and the hypocrites who

7:27

haven't gotten caught yet. All

7:30

right, two quick announcements before we get

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enter S-A-V-A-G-E. Hi

9:51

Dan, straight male, married

9:54

in his fifties. Just

9:57

ring because the relationship I'm in just

9:59

went through. very rocky period where there's

10:01

an hers

10:19

clearly hasn't. I'm

10:21

finding myself I've

10:30

got a six. Any

10:32

ideas or strategies about how

10:34

to rekindle that fire

10:36

that was there? Seems

10:38

to me that one or two things could be going on here.

10:40

Your wife's infidelity, the fact

10:43

that she cheated on you, destroyed

10:45

your libido, tanked your libido. You

10:47

can't be intimate or don't want

10:49

to be intimate with your wife

10:51

in the same

10:53

way that you used to before she betrayed

10:55

you like this. You say that

10:57

you're, you want to stay together, that

10:59

you've worked past this, that you and

11:01

the wife have healed from it, but maybe your

11:04

libido was a casualty

11:06

and ain't coming back. Or

11:09

maybe you're

11:11

a man in his 50s and your

11:13

testosterone levels have tanked. Have you been

11:15

to the doctor? Have you had your

11:17

hormone levels checked? This

11:19

could just be a coincidence that your

11:21

wife cheated on you, you

11:24

found out about it, you worked through

11:26

it, and as that process was unfolding,

11:28

your balls ceased to kick out

11:31

the same amount of testosterone that your balls

11:33

used to kick out. And you're no

11:35

longer as interested in sex as

11:38

you once were, and you're misattributing that perhaps

11:40

to the infidelity, which is not something that

11:42

you can change. You can't change the past

11:45

when what's actually going on is just something

11:47

physiological and medical and that can be addressed.

11:50

So before we put

11:53

all of our marbles on, my wife cheated on me

11:55

and destroyed my libido and it's never coming back, let's

11:57

go to the doctor and find out whether this is

11:59

a hormone level. thing and

12:01

a coincidence that it happened at roughly the same time.

12:03

Your libido began to drop roughly the same time that

12:05

your wife cheated on you and you found out about

12:07

it and you worked through it. Alright,

12:10

even if you get on testosterone

12:12

and that boosts your desire

12:15

for sex, you

12:17

and your wife may not

12:19

have exactly matched libidos. It's

12:21

rare for a couple to

12:23

have identical libidos. So

12:26

what do you do when it's a

12:28

mismatched libido situation that's really common. There's

12:30

a lot of good advice out there.

12:32

For couples with mismatched libidos, I've given

12:35

a lot of good advice to couples

12:37

with mismatched libidos over the

12:39

years. You know, the person with

12:41

the higher libidos, sometimes you're just going to

12:43

have to jack off, masturbate, bust out the

12:45

Hitachi Magic Wand vibrator on your own

12:47

and take care of your own needs.

12:50

But I think, you

12:53

know, if you're in a loving relationship and you're

12:55

invested in each other's happiness that sometimes the partner

12:57

with the lower libido shows

12:59

up for a little assisted masturbation

13:01

session, you should be able to say

13:03

to your wife, there are times when you're

13:05

horny, I'm not horny, but I am happy to help

13:08

you out. I am happy to

13:10

hold that vibrator. I'm happy if you

13:12

can go there and not a lot of straight guys

13:14

can, but more and more straight guys are. And I

13:17

think it's great. Strap a fucking dildo on and fuck

13:19

the shit out of your wife with

13:21

a strap on dildo. It can be

13:23

a lot of pressure on the person with

13:25

the lower libido to be

13:28

more sexual than they want to be.

13:30

It can cause resentment in the person with the

13:32

higher libido to get less sex than

13:34

they need to feel fulfilled.

13:39

Compromises can be made on both sides. Every once in a

13:41

while you're going to take care of yourself. Every once in

13:43

a while I'm going to be there to assist. And then

13:45

when we're both feeling it, we're going to have

13:48

great fucking sex.

13:51

That is a conversation I think you should have with

13:53

your wife. That is a compromise that you two can

13:56

hash out together. Oh my God. If you can get

13:58

past an infidelity, if you could say the

14:00

relationship from that kind of betrayal, this

14:03

has to be an easier conversation to have. You have

14:05

a higher libido than I do. I don't

14:08

want you to be miserable or unfulfilled. I

14:10

got you a brand new vibrator for

14:13

you to use on your own, for me to

14:15

use with you sometimes when I'm not

14:17

feeling it, when I'm not horny, and who

14:19

knows some of the times when you're willing

14:22

to be there as the person who's given the

14:24

assist, you catch a groove and suddenly you find

14:26

yourself having sex that you didn't want when you

14:29

were just there to assist and then suddenly you do

14:32

want, come to want, as

14:34

you provide the assist. But

14:37

the first conversation that I think you need

14:39

to have before you have this conversation with

14:41

your wife about your mixed-matz libidos is

14:43

that conversation with your doctor about

14:45

getting your hormone levels checked. Hi

14:48

Dan, I'm a 51 year old gay man.

14:50

I've been in a long-term 25 year

14:52

relationship with my husband. We adopted two

14:54

children who are now 9 and 12

14:56

years old. While my husband and

14:58

I do love each other, we've never had much

15:00

intimacy between us. We were never

15:02

that couple that fucked like rabbits upon meeting and

15:04

things just faded away. Touching, hugging,

15:07

kissing, even an arm around each other have

15:09

always been missing. I tried over

15:11

the years to discuss it but he avoided the

15:13

topic like the plague. About six to seven years

15:15

ago we opted to open up the marriage to

15:17

maybe spice it up. It didn't work. The

15:20

rule was that we have guests over but always

15:22

together and no separate hookups. Even during

15:24

our trysts we never touched each other and

15:26

there was no sex of any kind between

15:28

us outside of hookups. I

15:30

made the mistake of getting emotionally involved with one

15:32

of these guys on my own. He helped me realize

15:34

what I had been missing. About seven

15:36

months ago I confessed the relationship and then

15:38

ended it. My husband and I

15:41

decided to see if our relationship could be

15:43

salvaged. We went to couples counseling

15:45

but couldn't get past our issues. He couldn't forgive

15:47

me and I didn't see a path to intimacy

15:49

with him. So seeing no hope I

15:51

filed for divorce. My question is around the way

15:54

our story is perceived. My husband's

15:56

version of events focuses on the outside

15:58

relationship and nothing else. He

16:00

plays his victim role in the scandalous headlines,

16:02

gets everyone's attention. Old man has

16:04

midlife crisis and leads husband and kids for

16:07

young affair. My side seems to

16:09

get no sympathy. Man trapped in sexless,

16:11

loveless marriage for 25 years decides to

16:14

prioritize himself for once to try and find true

16:16

love and happiness. I feel like all people see

16:18

is the affair. I actually own

16:20

that I handled my unhappiness in the wrong

16:22

way. Trust was broken. But we tried

16:25

for seven months to fix it and it's just

16:27

broken. I didn't run off and

16:29

leave my family behind. But that's what I'm

16:31

being accused of now. My fault for having

16:33

the cojones to leave and not settle for

16:35

less. My kids deserve happy parents. I

16:37

feel like no one's seeing things from my

16:39

side. I mean we had an open relationship

16:41

for God's sakes. The affair was just a

16:43

symptom of the problem and it wasn't the

16:45

problem. Aren't we both to blame here? You've

16:48

convinced me that you're not

16:50

the bad guy but I don't think it's my

16:52

opinion or me that

16:54

you were hoping to convince. It's everyone

16:56

else in your life including your two

16:59

kids. Your husband is out

17:01

there playing the victim and

17:03

the narrative around a marriage

17:05

that breaks up because one person had

17:07

an affair with someone else even

17:10

if it was an open relationship but an open

17:12

relationship that didn't allow for emotional connections with other

17:14

people. You're the bad

17:16

guy. You have to wear the

17:18

black hat and that narrative is hard

17:21

to get out from under because

17:23

when a sexless marriage goes

17:25

tits up when it ends

17:28

because one of

17:30

the people in that sexless relationship was unsatisfied

17:33

because they wanted sex and went out and

17:35

found sex but also intimacy and connection with

17:38

someone else. That person is always regarded as

17:41

the bad guy because sex is bad and

17:43

it would just solve all

17:45

conflicts in sexless relationships where both people

17:47

aren't content and there are some sexless

17:49

relationships out there where both people are

17:52

content with sexlessness and to

17:54

those people who might be listening I say

17:56

there's nothing broken or damaged or fucked up

17:59

about your relationship. relationship if it's what

18:01

makes you both happy and neither

18:03

person boils

18:06

with resentment for the other and Curses

18:09

their fate that they got trapped in the sexist

18:11

relationship. There's nothing wrong with that Sexist

18:14

relationship sex does not need to

18:16

be present in a long-term

18:18

committed loving intimate relationship for

18:20

it to be Healthy

18:22

or valid or a real marriage? But

18:25

in sexist relationships where one

18:27

person's miserable that person goes and

18:29

finds Sex or

18:32

connection elsewhere and then the marriage

18:34

ends the relationship ends that person

18:36

is always seen as the

18:39

bad guy Because wouldn't

18:41

it just be better? If

18:43

the person who wasn't getting sex Just

18:46

could resign themselves to their fate and

18:48

you couldn't do that and you went

18:51

and fucked somebody else that then you Enjoyed

18:53

talking to and hanging out with and got

18:56

a little emotional Connection in

18:59

addition to the sexual connection and yeah, how do

19:01

you get out from under that? You

19:04

know, I don't know

19:06

if you can I don't know if it's worth the

19:08

effort to even try You

19:10

out there trying to explain to the people that

19:12

your husband has played the victim card with that

19:15

the marriage was sexless and you worked

19:18

on it and it was unsatisfying and

19:21

You stuck it out for 25 long Intimacy

19:24

free years and you deserve a little

19:26

credit for time served. You're

19:28

just gonna seem defensive People

19:31

who might be sympathetic to that argument people like

19:33

me probably already on your side People

19:36

who aren't going to be sympathetic to that argument. You'll

19:39

just be digging the hole that you're already in a

19:42

little bit deeper So,

19:44

what do you do? What do you say? Yeah,

19:47

I did something wrong I violated the rules

19:49

of our relationship

19:51

but the rules Weren't

19:53

working in the relationship wasn't working and

19:56

it needed to end. I could have ended it better could

19:59

have stuck the dismount, but

20:01

it ended messy as so many marriages do.

20:05

And now we're going to pivot to

20:07

friends, hopefully, and

20:10

we're going to have to remain in each other's

20:12

lives because we have kids that we are parenting

20:14

together. And so maybe for

20:16

your kids, rather than

20:18

contesting your husband's version of events,

20:21

you can let him have

20:24

that narrative and

20:26

you can accept with some grace

20:28

and maybe get some credit for

20:30

accepting with some grace that you

20:33

were the bad guy in the story of the end

20:35

of your relationship. But you're not the bad guy in

20:37

your story and you're not the bad guy in the

20:40

story of the marriage, the story

20:42

of you parenting together. You're the

20:44

bad guy in that discrete little

20:47

section, in that chapter of your

20:49

story. You don't say a lot about your

20:51

two kids and how they're

20:53

feeling or what your ex-husband

20:56

is telling your kids about the end of

20:59

the marriage. I do want to

21:01

say that one of the things my dad did right

21:03

when he left my mother and my parents got divorced,

21:05

he was kind of the bad guy. And

21:08

he didn't argue with us about whether or not

21:10

he was the bad guy. He

21:12

did say adult relationships are really

21:14

complicated. And

21:17

then let us think that he was the bad

21:19

guy and didn't fight us, didn't fight the kids

21:22

over who was responsible for the end

21:24

of my parents' marriage. My dad instigated

21:26

the divorce. He was responsible for

21:28

the end of the marriage. And

21:31

there was somebody else and we

21:33

found out and eventually we got

21:35

over it. And

21:38

I think us getting over it

21:40

as kids, one of the things that

21:42

sped that process along and that process

21:44

took years was the fact that dad

21:46

wasn't arguing with us about who the

21:49

bad guy was in that part of

21:51

my parents' story, in the chapter on

21:54

the end of their marriage. He accepted

21:56

the bad guy

21:58

role. While

22:00

also the asterisk and the end of it saying

22:02

you know what adult relationships are complicated and one

22:04

day you kids will have

22:07

adult relationships and you

22:09

will see how complicated they

22:11

can be and then just shifted the

22:14

Conversation to school or whatever was going on

22:16

in our lives or whatever was going on

22:19

in his life and changed the subject And

22:22

he was only able to do that and help

22:24

us get past this conflict or not drag us

22:26

into the conflict between My

22:29

parents by not arguing with us

22:31

about who the bad guy was Sucks

22:34

to be seen as the bad guy kind

22:36

of cements that bad guy role into place

22:39

if you want to argue with people Particularly

22:42

your kids, but whether or not you are

22:44

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promo code savage Hi,

24:15

Dan and savage love. I'm a 20

24:17

year old in, California. I Got

24:20

involved romantically with this guy who

24:22

was five years older than me

24:24

I was 17 and 18 and

24:27

he was kind of the leader of my

24:29

social circle He was also the son of

24:31

my boss, which made me feel like there

24:33

was certainly a power dynamic in the situation

24:36

It was kind of a slow burn of a relationship with

24:38

a quick Rejection because he decided he

24:41

couldn't be with me because my ex-boyfriend

24:43

was one of his close friends after

24:45

that I was kind of shunned from

24:47

the social scene and he had

24:49

offhandedly Said that he

24:52

could have made me lose my job

24:54

because his mom was my boss. We spent time

24:56

together after that Not in my

24:58

best interest But he would constantly

25:00

assert his age and his experience over

25:02

me Talk about sex with his

25:05

ex and how we'd never do that I

25:07

started thinking about it when he mentioned to

25:09

me that When he met

25:11

me when I was 15, he had tried really

25:13

hard not to be interested in me I always

25:15

thought that was weird because now that I'm 20

25:18

I'm the age he was then and

25:20

I can't imagine ever doing that with somebody so

25:22

much younger than me He

25:24

ended up being a misogynist and a homophobe that I

25:26

found out later through that same social

25:29

circle But a lot of people have

25:31

told me this doesn't count as him using me or

25:33

anything like that But I've always

25:35

kind of felt that it was I

25:37

don't know how to categorize it but

25:39

if you have any intel on that kind of

25:41

a sort of Situation and what I could call

25:43

it because it didn't fully seem like a fair

25:45

relationship I'm supposed to call for

25:48

this guy who sounds like an asshole just

25:50

gonna throw that out there Sounds like an asshole

25:52

But I'm supposed to call for this guy to be drawn and

25:54

quartered because when he was 19 or 20 He

25:57

met a girl in his social circle that

26:00

he was the leader of, met a

26:02

girl he thought was cute, and then found

26:04

out that girl was 15 years

26:07

old and backed the

26:09

fuck off. Isn't

26:11

that what we want young

26:14

men to do? And you say

26:16

now that you know you meet 15 year olds

26:18

and you could never imagine at 20 being

26:20

with them, but I think what you're doing is you're

26:22

meeting 15 year olds who look 15

26:25

or younger and that confirms

26:27

your bias you're

26:30

absolutely correct bias not to sleep with 15 year

26:32

olds but the 15 year olds that you may

26:35

see on the bus, see in the grocery store

26:37

meet briefly who look like they're

26:39

18 or 19 and that

26:41

you think are cute and you never find out

26:44

they're 15

26:47

you don't realize that there may be some people

26:49

in the world who are 15 years old who

26:51

are gonna ping on to your radar

26:56

and then you know if you find out they're 15 you should

26:58

do what this guy did when he found out you were 15 and

27:02

back the fuck off. You

27:04

know when people are in high school

27:06

and a little bit older and under the age

27:08

of 21 particularly in the United States or the

27:10

drinking age is 21 there tends to

27:12

be a lot of mixing of

27:14

high school age and slightly

27:18

out of high school particularly people didn't go

27:20

away to college age young

27:23

adults and that can be problematic because then you

27:25

can end up with 18 19 20

27:28

year olds meeting socially 14 15 16 year olds that it might be

27:34

inappropriate for them to date

27:38

and asshole though this guy was we

27:40

want young men in

27:43

that sort of environment if they're meeting

27:45

15 year old girls

27:47

who you know it's often said girls look a

27:49

little bit older mature a little bit faster physically

27:52

than boys if they meet a

27:54

girl they think is cute and then it

27:56

turns out that girl is five

27:58

years younger than they are and not two

28:00

or three years younger than they

28:02

are. Yeah, you want them to back

28:04

the fuck off, which is what this guy

28:07

did, which doesn't mean this was a great

28:09

relationship. It doesn't mean it wasn't

28:12

a relationship that was shot through with

28:15

slightly creepy power differentials

28:18

that made you, at least in

28:20

retrospect, feel uneasy or exploited or

28:23

manipulated by this guy. But,

28:26

you know, unless we're willing to add leader

28:29

of social circle to the list of positions

28:32

of authority that could possibly be abused

28:34

and nobody who leads a social circle

28:36

can then, therefore, date anyone in the

28:39

social circle that they lead for fear

28:41

of abusing or exploiting

28:43

their power or

28:45

position or charisma, you know, eventually we're

28:47

going to back ourselves into a world

28:49

where nobody's getting laid ever

28:52

at all. This

28:54

guy, the way he wheeled

28:57

at his age and position

29:00

of social influence over

29:02

you and pointed to his

29:04

mom and threatened your job, yeah, this

29:06

guy was an asshole and

29:08

you are well rid of

29:11

him. What to

29:13

call it? A learning experience?

29:15

A shitty early relationship with

29:17

a shitty person that

29:21

hopefully has left you. You know, we all have

29:23

a lot of shitty early relationships, it seems, with

29:25

shitty people. And, you know,

29:27

shitty people get dumped. Hopefully, shitty people

29:30

get less shitty over time. People grow

29:32

mature. Sometimes they

29:34

do better. Maybe this guy is going to

29:36

be better and do better. But then, you

29:38

know, if we were the not shitty person

29:40

in the relationship or if our shit was

29:42

less weighty

29:45

than their shit, we

29:47

learned to spot the shitty people. We

29:50

learn earlier on to

29:54

not date somebody just because

29:56

they're hot, if they're

29:58

an asshole or not date somebody just because they

30:00

have more social capital than

30:02

we do, or charisma, and

30:06

to trust our gut, to

30:08

get out of those relationships faster.

30:11

So what to call this? Shitty

30:13

early relationship. What

30:15

to do about it? Learn from it. But

30:19

let's not call this guy, let's not

30:21

insinuate that this guy at age

30:23

19, 20, who

30:26

met a 15 year old, did something

30:28

wrong by backing the fuck

30:30

off. A little creepy that when you were dating, and you

30:32

were 18, 17, 18 in that relationship, he

30:36

brought it up, maybe a little

30:39

creepy, but on that

30:41

point, and no other points, seems

30:44

like this dude did the right thing, and

30:46

deserves a shred of credit. It's

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Dan, Nancy and the tech savvy youth. I'm a

32:47

cis gay male based on the West Coast but

32:49

I'm not sure all that matters as much for

32:51

my question. The parts of my identity that

32:53

are probably the most pertinent are that I'm in my

32:55

early 40s and I just got

32:57

my first ever body modification a few weeks ago,

32:59

a Prince Albert piercing. I'm also

33:01

a dad to a three-year-old boy. My

33:04

son has seen people with ear and nose and

33:06

facial piercings and it's never been an issue but

33:08

a genital piercing feels like it's going to be

33:11

a different situation. I know at some

33:13

point my son will see my Prince Albert. Maybe he'll see

33:15

me stepping out of the shower or changing out of

33:17

my bathing suit at a beach and

33:19

I faintly remember seeing my father naked when I

33:21

was a child so I assume my son will

33:23

remember seeing me naked at some point too and

33:26

when he does see me naked he'll probably notice

33:28

a big shiny metal ring dangling off the tip

33:30

of my dick. So my

33:33

question is how do I

33:35

explain my Prince Albert to my son when he

33:37

inevitably sees it and asks about it? I'm

33:40

very body positive, sex positive and kink

33:42

positive so hiding my body or never

33:44

allowing my child to ever see me

33:46

naked again just doesn't sound feasible. What

33:49

do you think Dan? I don't know if my

33:51

father listens to the show but if my dad

33:53

is listening right now I want

33:55

to thank you for hiding your body. I

33:57

want to thank you again for never allowing

34:01

your child to see you

34:03

naked. Where do people get

34:05

this from? That you inevitably get

34:08

to see your dad's dick. I never saw my

34:10

dad's dick, maybe because we were Catholic, but we

34:12

grew up in a really tiny apartment.

34:15

We had one bathroom and there were six

34:17

of us and somehow I

34:19

managed to make it out of childhood

34:21

without finding out whether my dad had

34:23

a Prince Albert piercing or not or

34:26

whether he had a giant

34:28

dick or I didn't ever see my

34:30

dad's dick. I

34:33

wish the same for your son,

34:35

not to shame you, not that there's anything

34:37

wrong with that kind of body modification. And

34:39

you know if your son ever does see

34:42

it and you feel the need to explain

34:44

it to him or a

34:46

TSA agent, all you got to say with a

34:48

kid is something simple. He's seen

34:50

earrings, he's seen nose rings, he understands them.

34:53

All you got to say is it's like

34:55

an earring for your dick.

34:57

Some adults get them, most

35:00

adults don't. The

35:02

end. And then I promise

35:05

you your son will stop

35:08

thinking about your dick. I would also

35:10

encourage you to stop thinking about how

35:12

much your son is going to be

35:14

thinking about your dick. I mean I

35:16

think this is something definitely legitimate to

35:18

think about. Take into consideration after you

35:20

get a Prince Albert piercing that that

35:22

may be something you need to address

35:24

with your son at some point. But

35:26

if you go my dad's route, again

35:28

my dad could have seven dick

35:30

piercings for all I know, but if you go my dad's route just

35:32

like don't let him see your fucking dick and then you never have

35:34

to have this conversation with

35:36

your kid. These dads

35:40

and dicks things, it always bumps

35:42

me. Usually it's circumcision, it's a conversation

35:44

about circumcision where somebody says we want

35:46

to get our infant son, you know,

35:50

we did a we know the gender of our

35:52

kid, the sex of our kid, and we want

35:54

to get him circumcised after he's born because we

35:56

want him to look like his father. I hear

35:58

that all the time when circumcision

36:02

subject dilemma in

36:04

a relationship conflict often comes up and

36:08

I've no where is this culture

36:10

where dads and sons sit around

36:12

and have a beer and pull

36:15

their dicks out and compare them to

36:18

check how much they look alike it doesn't

36:20

happen so again

36:23

again thank you dad

36:25

wherever you are if you're listening right

36:27

now never saw your dick you never

36:29

saw my dick and somehow we managed

36:32

to make that happen in

36:35

a two-bedroom apartment with one

36:37

bathroom for kids two

36:40

adults thanks again dad the

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the code savage Hi, Dan.

38:17

I am a 41 year old female living

38:19

in the Midwest. I Have

38:22

been separated divorced from my ex-husband

38:24

for about two years now We

38:27

have a pretty great co-parenting relationship

38:29

for kids we were together for

38:31

20-some years We started

38:33

dating in high school. That's all going really

38:35

well, and I'm enjoying my new

38:38

life I kind of

38:40

went back and got to make up

38:42

for some lost time and experimentation that

38:45

I never did in college I

38:47

got on tinder. I did some hooking up

38:49

for about six months. I got to explore

38:51

my Bisexuality which I

38:53

have never had a chance to explore had

38:56

experiences with women which were lovely and I

38:58

would love to do again But

39:00

all this is just background. My question is related to a man.

39:02

I've been seeing I Started

39:05

seeing him I guess about a little

39:07

over a year now and after doing

39:09

the online Apps

39:11

and the hooking up I kind of decided

39:14

that I would like something a little more

39:16

safe and steady So I proposed

39:18

a friends with benefits relationship to a man I've

39:20

known for about nine years it went well for

39:22

a while He did catch feelings.

39:24

I've tried to end it a few times because of

39:26

that it has progressively just

39:29

Kind of followed the natural path of a

39:32

relationship and gotten a little more serious, and

39:34

I've just decided I'm gonna end it I'm

39:36

not ready for that. I'm not he's mentioned

39:38

things like marriage and meeting my kids, and

39:40

I'm not ready for all that Here's the

39:43

question part. I am a lucky person in that

39:45

I have Many many

39:48

Glorious lovely friendships have lasted most

39:50

of my life and they all think

39:52

I'm making a mistake all of them They

39:54

think this guy's great and that my life would be

39:56

easier Taking care of my kids if I

39:58

had help and he's willing to do that and all

40:00

of these things are true but I feel

40:03

so confident in the conviction that I

40:06

will hold on to my high standards and

40:08

unless I feel so driven to be with

40:10

someone that I'm willing to give up the

40:12

freedom and I don't want a man

40:14

in my house. I want to do what I want to do. I'm

40:16

willing to be alone and they all think I'm

40:18

making a terrible mistake and I

40:20

guess the question is at what point do I do

40:23

what I feel is right and what point do I

40:25

listen to people that know me well and love me.

40:27

I feel so strongly that if in 10 years when

40:29

my kids have moved on I decide

40:31

I need the companionship I can find someone

40:34

to for lack of a better word settle

40:36

for but I'm not ready for that

40:38

now. I want to have fun

40:40

and be single. I could

40:42

use your take on this. You're

40:45

doing that thing. You're doing that

40:47

thing that a lot of women do where

40:49

you went into a conversation with the guy that

40:51

you're kind of sort of seeing something that you

40:54

hope to keep a lid

40:56

on. You just wanted FWB no catching the

40:58

feelings he caught feelings you felt I think

41:01

obligated to explore the possibility

41:03

that you might catch

41:05

feelings for him as intense as the feelings

41:07

he caught for you and you went into

41:10

a conversation with him to end the relationship.

41:12

You say that you've talked to him more

41:14

than once about breaking

41:17

up and

41:20

he didn't agree. You went

41:22

into that conversation. You went into a conversation about

41:24

a breakup thinking it was a discussion

41:28

that you needed to reach consensus about

41:30

whether you could break up. No,

41:33

no you do not have to win the argument

41:35

with the person you're breaking up with to break

41:37

up with them. A lot of women

41:39

seem to think that's the case. A lot of men

41:43

intuitively consciously or subconsciously

41:45

realize that about women

41:48

and exploit it and leverage

41:50

it again consciously in some

41:52

cases subconsciously in others

41:55

to deny a woman their permission

41:58

their consent. agree. They argue with

42:01

them about the breakup and the relationship then because

42:03

you didn't give the woman permission to end it

42:05

continues. You don't need his

42:08

permission to break up with him. You

42:12

also don't need your friend's permission to

42:14

break up with him and you don't need my

42:16

permission to break up with him although it's my

42:19

permission that you called in seeking and

42:21

you have it. If you need someone's

42:23

permission you have mine. But the

42:26

most important person, the

42:28

person whose feelings really matter here, is

42:31

you and you articulate your feelings very

42:34

well. You, after 20

42:36

years of marriage, don't want

42:38

a man in your

42:40

house, in your life, in the way a man

42:43

who wants to marry you expects he will be

42:45

in your house, in your life, in your face,

42:47

in the lives of your children. You don't want

42:49

that right now. You

42:52

possibly may not want that again

42:55

ever. And

42:57

so the track he thinks this

42:59

relationship is on is not the track you

43:03

think it's on or want it to be

43:05

on and you're gonna have to derail that

43:07

fucking train. You're gonna have to break the fuck

43:09

up with this guy and

43:11

you can't go into that conversation with

43:14

him arguing

43:16

with him about it, making the case

43:18

for why you should both exit this

43:20

relationship. You just have to go in

43:22

and inform him that it

43:24

is over because you no longer wish to

43:26

be in it. You no longer consent to

43:29

be thought of as his girlfriend

43:31

or to be his girlfriend. You don't want to see

43:33

him romantically anymore.

43:36

Maybe you can dial it back to a friendship.

43:38

You know, if he was hoping, thinking about marriage,

43:40

that may be hard for him. He may need

43:42

to not see you

43:45

for a long time. But

43:48

you don't need to win the argument. You go

43:50

in there, you tell him it's over. You tell

43:52

your friends it's over and then call me back

43:54

and tell me it's over because

43:58

it was my permission you needed a little nudge

44:00

from me, you just got it. Before

44:03

we get to this week's listener response

44:05

calls, I want to share a couple

44:07

of the comments about last week's show

44:09

that were posted by listeners at savage.love.

44:11

It says, Jules SP, I'm

44:13

really having a hard time with this.

44:15

It's fine and socially acceptable to break

44:18

up with someone via text after sleeping

44:20

with them. This happened to

44:22

me recently, except it was after dating and

44:24

sleeping together for almost two months. A 10

44:26

minute phone call would have been the decent

44:29

and classy thing to do. I hear

44:31

you Jules, I agree with you Jules, but

44:34

after hearing so many ghost stories

44:36

from my listeners, a breakup

44:38

text seems to me like a courtesy at

44:40

this point. I guess when it

44:42

comes to dating we have defined decency down,

44:45

but I imagine before text messages came

44:47

along, a 10 minute phone call after

44:49

two months would have seemed just as

44:52

indecent and un-classy, and before phones there

44:54

were Dear John Letters and people complained

44:56

about those too. I think

44:58

the reality is no one wants

45:00

to be dumped or likes being dumped, whether

45:02

it's by text, phone, Dear John

45:04

Letter carrier pigeon, Goodyear blimp,

45:07

chicken entrails, it always sucks.

45:09

Says by Danfan, brilliant opening this

45:12

week Dan, I liked your conclusion

45:14

that women would instead opt for

45:16

timeshares with progressive polyamorous men over

45:18

marrying MAGA guys, but you didn't

45:20

go quite where I thought you

45:22

would when you mentioned alternatives to

45:24

marrying those men. Perhaps the

45:27

sizable community of bisexual women out

45:29

there will realize they're not as

45:31

heteroromantic as they thought. Mmm,

45:34

perhaps. Finally says

45:36

JPW, it's fun to hate

45:38

on the dumb conservative men who've made

45:40

themselves unfuckably toxic, but at its heart

45:43

this is a sign that society is

45:45

failing men, because in addition

45:47

to the sex talk we need to

45:49

start having the online radicalization talk, particularly

45:51

with young men. None of that means

45:54

women are wrong enough to fuck these

45:56

toxic men, but it's incredibly troubling that

45:58

the right is having someone success,

46:00

turning young men into

46:02

unfuckable assholes. Agreed,

46:05

JPW. All right,

46:07

there are a lot of great

46:09

comments at Savage.love, comments about the

46:11

podcast and the column. Some of

46:13

the best ones are too long

46:15

for me to share here. Great

46:18

comments this week from Zoftig, Mathis

46:20

and Leah, Scott from Atlanta, Castelia,

46:22

Truth Lemonade, and more posted at

46:24

Savage.love, the one place on the

46:26

internet where you should definitely and

46:28

always read the comments and join

46:30

the discussion too. And

46:32

now, listener response calls. Hey

46:35

Dan, this is a response call to

46:37

episode 893 with the person

46:39

who called about getting back to his girl, with his

46:41

girlfriend and he was kind of stringing this other woman

46:44

along. I don't know how this

46:46

was never addressed, like he addressed you as Danny.

46:49

Like are you, is Danny a thing?

46:51

Do you like to be called Danny? I

46:54

don't know, there was something that I

46:56

wrestled with and something that was super hot and so

46:58

I was just kind of curious how you felt about

47:00

it. I don't usually respond

47:02

to these response calls but we're making

47:04

an exception for this one. I do

47:06

not mind being called Danny so

47:09

long as it is my mother calling me Danny

47:11

or my sister calling me Danny. Nobody

47:13

else gets to call me Danny. This

47:16

is a massage therapist responding to the lesbian

47:18

in episode 893. You know, most of us

47:20

have tension in the front of our necks

47:24

from staring down at our cell

47:26

phones or looking down for work

47:28

so that's a really common area

47:30

for a massage therapist to address

47:32

during a session and

47:34

I'm gonna go ahead and guarantee for

47:36

you that she wasn't trying to give

47:38

you a sexy vibe or perpetuate the

47:41

sexy vibe that she accidentally inspired. You

47:43

know, thank you for keeping your purving

47:45

secret. I really appreciate that and please

47:47

only schedule with her again if you

47:49

can keep that purving so secret because

47:53

I can't tell you how many clients

47:55

we have who develop a

47:57

crush and get too comfortable and take

47:59

too many liberties and make

48:01

us feel objectified or propositioned or

48:03

pressured and it sucks. It's

48:06

the worst part of a really awesome

48:08

job otherwise. So if you

48:10

find a therapist who makes you feel special

48:12

that just means that therapist is good at

48:15

their job. Hi Dan, one comment about

48:17

last week's episode. You

48:19

said that you know guys say to each other

48:22

what are you into? The only problem is so

48:24

many guys will just say everything and

48:27

honestly everything is nothing because so many people

48:29

have so many diverse interests that I have

48:31

to tease that out of them and

48:34

I'm very kinky so I want to know what's going

48:36

on. And

48:39

we're gonna leave it there. Got a

48:41

question for next week's Love Cast or

48:43

something to say about something I said

48:45

on this week's Love Cast? You can

48:47

record your question or your comment at

48:49

savage.love slash ask Dan right

48:51

now. Or you can use the voice memo app on

48:53

your phone and email your question or your comment to

48:56

Q at savage.love or you can give us a call

48:58

and leave us a voicemail at 206-302-2064. Remember

49:03

those early bird discounted tickets for the

49:05

2024 Hump Film Festival

49:07

are on sale now at

49:09

humpfilmfest.com. Get your tickets

49:12

to a live screening. See Hump how

49:14

it was meant to be seen in

49:16

a theater and get them now at

49:18

a discount. Follow me on

49:20

Instagram and threads at Dan Savage. Follow me

49:22

on Blue Sky at Dan Savage. And

49:24

I am still on the back page

49:26

at the Dan Savage. Follow Dr. Ina

49:28

Park on Instagram and threads at Ina

49:30

Park MD. Learn more

49:33

about her work and order her

49:35

terrific book at inapark.net. This

49:37

is Savage Love Cast. This is Steve and Nancy

49:39

Petrini. And me and Nancy. And Tex

49:41

and the Everest Youth. I'll be back at you next

49:43

week with an installment of Savage Love

49:45

Cast. Thank you. my

50:00

wife and the pool boy for me.