0:00

You're listening to the micro version of

0:02

The Savage Lovecast at savage.love. We

0:23

can't talk about the Iowa caucuses because

0:25

at the time of this recording, Monday

0:28

afternoon, I don't know the results. And

0:30

that's probably a relief because at this point,

0:32

whatever time you listen to the show after

0:34

Tuesday morning, you're probably sick of hearing about

0:37

the results. And you can hear about Iowa

0:40

and actual news everywhere.

0:42

You don't need to hear about the actual

0:44

news here on your favorite

0:46

sex podcast. You would probably much

0:48

rather hear about a lighthouse in Maine with a

0:50

crazy name that I just heard about. It's

0:53

called Cuckold's Light, full name, the

0:55

Cuckold's Island fog signal and light

0:58

station. And this lighthouse has

1:00

been there since 1890. And

1:02

somehow I only just found

1:04

out about it yesterday. Cuckold's

1:07

Light has a Wiki page and

1:09

nowhere on it does Wiki explain

1:11

how Cuckold's Light got its name,

1:13

which seems strange since his name

1:15

is literally the only interesting thing

1:17

about Cuckold's Light. Finding out how

1:19

Cuckold's Light got its name is

1:21

the only reason anyone has ever

1:23

visited its Wiki page ever. And

1:25

you can't find that information out

1:27

there. I looked it up

1:29

elsewhere. Turns out Cuckold's Light is named

1:31

for Cuckold's Point, a bend in the

1:33

Thames River in London, which legend has

1:35

it, got its name after King John.

1:37

He's the 12th century English monarch who signed

1:39

the Magna Carta, got its

1:41

name after King John gave the land

1:43

to some Lord or other whose wife

1:46

King John had fucked. All right, that's

1:48

enough lighthouse. Let's talk about

1:50

the Republican majority city council and some

1:52

tick infested shithole in Connecticut that just

1:54

banned pride flags from flying over their

1:57

city hall. This new policy enacted last

1:59

week. replaces a policy put

2:01

into place way, way back in 2022.

2:05

That policy allowed Pride Flags to fly

2:07

over the city hall of Enfield, Connecticut

2:10

during Pride Month, which they

2:12

did for two junes in a row, but

2:14

that's all over now. And you know, in

2:16

all honesty, if it weren't

2:18

for the performative assholery of this

2:21

move by the Enfield City Council,

2:23

majority GOP, and the fact that

2:25

this comes after a year when more than 500 anti-LGBT laws

2:29

were introduced in state legislatures all over the

2:31

country and more than 80 were passed, most

2:34

of them targeting trans people, if

2:36

it weren't for all that, I wouldn't give

2:38

a shit. There are enough of us who

2:40

wanna wave Pride Flags around in June, and

2:42

we aren't so weak and needy that we're

2:44

gonna go to pieces if we don't

2:47

see a Pride Flag flapping over Enfield's shitty

2:49

city hall, a tradition, again, that stretches

2:51

all the way back to the year

2:53

of our Lord 2022. But

2:56

after the 2023 we just had, not

2:59

gonna lie, the news out of Enfield

3:01

kinda sucks. But Enfield, Schmenfield,

3:04

there are so many big stories, big

3:06

news stories to obsess about right now.

3:08

I'm looking at the headlines, mad world,

3:10

mad kings, mad composition, as

3:13

Shakespeare said, and his underappreciated and

3:15

underproduced play King John, which doesn't

3:17

include a Magna Carta signing scene

3:19

or a cockholding scene. But

3:22

here's a story that caught my eye out of

3:24

Virginia, a state named for Queen Elizabeth, the first,

3:26

the Virgin Queen, a story I wish was bigger

3:29

because this story is

3:31

a gift. So a woman who

3:33

does not wish to be identified,

3:35

a woman who only wishes to

3:37

identify, and her 14-year-old son went

3:40

to a restaurant, Carmen's Tex-Mex in

3:42

Norfolk, Virginia, and shit

3:44

went down. The breathless

3:46

Andy Fox of WAVY, on

3:49

your side, Channel 10 News, has the

3:51

story. They offered me $300 in free food to keep

3:53

quiet. This

3:56

mom who doesn't wanna be identified says

3:59

that followed a her 14 year old

4:01

son, seeing something strange to him in

4:03

the back kitchen there. Mom

4:05

started recording what she says appears

4:08

to be people engaged in sexual

4:11

relations. Mom alerted them. She was there.

4:13

And when you said that, what did

4:15

they do? Okay

4:17

lady, I'm sorry your kid had to see

4:19

that, but I've worked in restaurants and people

4:21

working in restaurants have done worse things

4:24

and people eating in restaurants

4:26

have done far worse things.

4:29

And for the record, the hardworking staff

4:31

at Carmen sex max don't

4:33

appear to be anywhere near the food in

4:36

the video, which was shown on TV. They

4:38

are again, it appears in a back room.

4:40

And if they'd only closed the

4:42

door to the back room all the way, these

4:44

two people who just wanted to have a little

4:46

fun at work and doubtless would have washed

4:49

their hands before returning to work. These

4:51

two people wouldn't be facing criminal charges

4:53

right now. Mom called Norfolk

4:55

police who in their complaint narrative

4:58

wrote the two in the kitchen

5:00

claimed they were cleaning the fridge.

5:02

Mom says she doesn't buy that.

5:04

My 14 year old saw it and

5:07

he's not okay. He, he's

5:09

the light of my life

5:11

and he experienced this traumatic

5:13

event. It was traumatic and

5:15

they're just trying to figure

5:17

out how something like this could

5:20

possibly happen. Okay. First thing I want

5:22

to say about this news story, new euphemism

5:24

just dropped. If this were a big national

5:26

news story and I wish it was, and

5:28

I'm doing my best here to make it

5:31

one. If this were a big national news

5:33

story, cleaning the fridge would be right up

5:35

there with classics like hiking the Appalachian trail

5:37

and lifting my luggage. If those

5:40

euphemisms don't ring a bell, Google them

5:42

worth your time to read about the

5:44

family values, Republican governor of South Carolina

5:46

who claimed he was out hiking the

5:49

Appalachian trail when he was actually in

5:51

Argentina with his mistress disgraced,

5:53

South Carolina governor Mark Sanford or

5:56

the co-founder of the anti-gay family research castle

5:58

who got caught in the. of

6:00

2010 taking a rent boy to

6:02

Europe and then claimed he needed that male

6:04

hooker along on that trip with him to

6:07

lift his luggage. That would be

6:09

disgraced homophobe George Reekers. And his

6:11

wiki page actually does mention that

6:13

photos later surfaced of Reekers on

6:15

that trip lifting his

6:17

own fucking luggage. Such good

6:19

sex scandals. Classic. Oh

6:21

and South Carolina named for King

6:24

Charles II as is North Carolina.

6:26

I don't know why I know those things but I know those

6:28

things. Second thing I wanted to say about

6:30

this news story? Lady,

6:32

girlfriend, mother, mom please.

6:34

Your 14 year old kid might be

6:36

the light of your life but unless

6:39

you're keeping that light under a bushel

6:41

unless that light has never enjoyed a

6:43

moment's unsupervised access to the internet he

6:46

has seen people fucking. And if that

6:48

kid is traumatized by anything he's traumatized

6:51

by his mom going on local TV

6:53

news to tell everyone in town including

6:55

his classmates that he was traumatized by

6:57

the sight of two people fucking in

6:59

the back of a restaurant. And

7:02

how could this happen Andy Fox? Well

7:04

people sometimes fuck and sometimes people fuck

7:06

in places they're not supposed to fuck.

7:09

You know what else people aren't supposed to do? Pull

7:11

out their phones and film other people

7:13

fucking in places where they had a

7:15

reasonable expectation of privacy. And judging

7:18

from the way this video you showed

7:20

on your dumb local TV news broadcast

7:22

appears to have been shot around the

7:24

corner those two horny restaurant workers could

7:26

reasonably argue that they didn't know that

7:29

they could be seen by mama Karen.

7:31

For the record I am NOT pro-fucking

7:34

where minors can see you. It is

7:36

not good form. But I'm also not

7:38

pro people whipping out their phones and

7:40

recording people fucking in what they thought

7:42

was private and yes the backroom of

7:44

a restaurant counts as private and then

7:46

running to the cops and local TV

7:48

news stations and ruining the lives of

7:50

the people who were fucking where they

7:52

didn't know that they could be seen.

7:55

I'm also not pro people throwing the word trauma

7:57

around the way mom does here and I'm not

7:59

pro local. Pb news reporters who like

8:01

to pretend that they are shocked shocked

8:03

to find out the people are having

8:06

sex in their town and I think

8:08

it's possible to be anti pro to

8:10

be pro con or just plain com

8:12

all four of those things at once.

8:15

You. Know just like you can be anti

8:17

com an anti bomb in Gaza flat, an

8:19

anti who teased attacking shipping lanes, an anti

8:21

bombing Yemen flat all at once that aren't

8:24

actually okay sorry the actual news kind of

8:26

creep back in there at the end which

8:28

is not what you come here for. Someone

8:30

to wrap up this intro. Now this is

8:32

the last thing I need to do. Nothing

8:34

any to record for this week's show so

8:36

I can get back to what I love

8:39

best. Clean. In the fridge or

8:41

coming up on today's show on the

8:43

micro. Savage. Love Cats tons of your

8:45

cue lots of my A it's an

8:47

armed A Magnum which you can subscribe

8:49

to it Savage.loved In Not A Justice

8:51

Returns she is the Paris based Dominate

8:53

Tricks author and think educators. She's back

8:55

to talk with me about dance, asking

8:57

subs to buy them gear what exactly

9:00

people mean by service in a Bdsm

9:02

down some context and whether you're kinky

9:04

roommate keeping a live in slave in

9:06

the cage in your apartment is a

9:08

good idea or a bad. Idea of

9:10

all that coming up on today.

9:13

So this episode has brought you

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by Helix Sleep The best mattress

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page and type in Savage That stamps.com

10:13

Enter Essay: Be A G E. He.

10:16

Dans gay male early thirties in

10:18

the midwest. I met this guy

10:20

on Tinder like four years ago

10:22

or so long run on a

10:24

couple days that like and really

10:26

have a sexual connection and so

10:28

decided to be friends. became best

10:30

friends like super close like amazing

10:32

connection. felt a sense of belonging

10:34

with each other and really just

10:36

like a beautiful friendship that I

10:38

think I had always wanted and

10:40

a friend. Fast forward to about

10:42

a year and half ago I

10:44

meet someone and start dating. Them who

10:46

becomes by now boyfriend about a year

10:49

and to.relationship My friend comes to me

10:51

and tells me that he needs to

10:53

step back from our friendship because he

10:55

has feelings for me. I kind of

10:57

freak out. I am like are you

10:59

sure that you have to links for

11:01

me as an we're not just like

11:03

close have a really good connection. A

11:06

big reason I kind of like push

11:08

back. In question his feelings alive were

11:10

because that he said that he didn't

11:12

wanna have sex with me. It was

11:14

just something that he was like. A

11:16

willing to work on our sexual connections

11:19

if we were like to be in

11:21

a relationship. For me, I'd that's kind

11:23

of like a swap of priorities. Like

11:25

a deathly need a sexual connection with

11:28

someone in a relationship. and like. If.

11:30

I'm gonna work and anything like Eminem or

11:32

through some emotional stuff. anyway he obviously

11:35

didn't respond well to like me kind

11:37

of questioning feelings which i think is

11:39

very fair but i'm i'm feeling kind

11:41

of like resentful and i harbor a

11:43

lot of anger towards him that i

11:46

feel like where he did was they

11:48

kind of childish and that bringing this

11:50

to me like a year year and

11:52

to my relationship i don't really trust

11:54

his feelings and by i also like

11:56

miss himalayan deathly create this type of

11:59

connection that we had. I have

12:01

a lot of really great friends but I definitely

12:04

miss the type of closeness that I have

12:06

with this person. So I don't know if

12:08

I would want to like reach out

12:11

and try to maintain

12:13

some sort of connection. The level

12:15

of distance that he said that

12:18

he needed was kind

12:20

of more than what felt like a

12:22

friendship to me and so I would

12:24

love to get your thoughts and advice

12:26

on navigating the situation. There's nothing

12:28

really for you to navigate here

12:31

except the curb. You kind of got kicked to the curb. Who

12:35

knows what was going on with this

12:37

guy the entire time that you were

12:39

close as you became friends. Maybe

12:42

he consciously harbored ulterior motives

12:44

and he was hoping if

12:46

you grew closer and closer

12:49

together that eventually you

12:51

would realize that you were sexually attracted to him and

12:53

he was sexually attracted to you and you would ride

12:56

off into the sunset together or

12:59

maybe you falling in love

13:01

romantically and sexually with

13:04

the guy that you're with

13:06

now helped him see how he really

13:08

felt about you all along, what he really

13:10

wanted from you all along and he

13:14

now sees the relationship that you did have not

13:16

so much as a friendship but as a

13:18

kind of romance,

13:22

a romantic friendship. Perhaps even

13:24

a companionate relationship and

13:28

his heart is broken and he can't

13:30

see you right now and doesn't want to be

13:32

your friend and it may not be that he

13:34

was ever from his side your

13:36

friend. He may have seen himself

13:39

again consciously or subconsciously as

13:41

your partner

13:45

and you never saw him that way and

13:47

he's hurt and being with you now that you

13:49

actually do have a romantic and

13:51

sexual partner all in one person in

13:54

the person of your new boyfriend is

13:57

painful for him and that's really all you got to understand.

14:00

You can feel like it's not fair, you

14:02

can feel blindsided by it. That

14:05

doesn't change anything. You can dismiss his feelings,

14:07

you can say that you don't trust his

14:09

feelings. He may not even trust his feelings.

14:11

He may be feeling his way through his

14:13

feelings right now and maybe he'll

14:16

circle back to you in six months or a

14:18

year or two years once

14:20

he's had time to grieve what

14:24

he's experiencing, most likely, as a

14:26

breakup. And what you now

14:28

are experiencing as a breakup, he was probably experiencing it

14:30

as a breakup when you got together with this guy

14:33

and he was still seeing you and you were still hanging

14:35

out together and gradually became

14:37

apparent to him that this was painful

14:39

for him to be with

14:42

you like he used to be with you while

14:44

you were now with someone else like he may

14:47

have just in that moment realized he always wanted to be

14:49

with you all along or maybe he knew the whole time

14:51

and he was strategizing.

14:55

But I doubt it. Giving

14:58

him the benefit of the doubt

15:01

and they're not grave doubts. It

15:04

sounds like he was as blindsided by

15:06

what you falling in love with somebody

15:08

else dredged up for him as you

15:10

are now blindsided by him coming to

15:12

you and saying, we can't

15:14

hang out. Let

15:17

him have that. Give him

15:20

that. And give it

15:22

to him with grace. Don't argue with him about

15:24

it. Don't argue with mutuals about it. Just

15:27

let him have how he

15:29

feels and his experience of the

15:32

end for now of your friendship and it's

15:35

likelier if you respond with

15:37

some grace and patience

15:39

and compassion here that your

15:41

friendship will revive in a year or

15:43

two. I always tell people when you

15:45

break up with somebody and you want to be friends, you really

15:48

got to take six months or a year off and away. Somebody

15:51

breaks up and pivots to friendship that

15:54

day. You

15:56

may pivot to friendship With this guy. It's

16:00

not going to be. It attacked a friendship for

16:02

you, pivot to friendship for him. But it's not

16:04

going to be. Today And it's

16:06

not going to be because you reject his

16:08

understanding of his feelings or I side with

16:10

you. It's gonna be because you games based

16:12

a given time and six months or a

16:14

year or two years from now, you're going

16:16

to run into each other. Gay.

16:19

Bar or in an airport or in

16:22

a coffee shop and you're going to

16:24

sit and talk and reconnect. And.

16:26

That connection resell. Pushing that connections is

16:28

gonna be possible if you don't fight

16:30

him right now. And. The

16:32

disconnect that he needs. Food.

16:35

On our on our side

16:37

on on. In my forties

16:39

I have been divorced with

16:42

two teenagers for. Many

16:45

years now. over a decade and

16:47

I've been single for about three

16:49

and other apps unsuccessful attempts. I.

16:51

Met a guy in the end

16:54

of September. We went on our

16:56

first day in October and he

16:58

was great! Like. So.

17:01

Good at planning date. Super attentive,

17:03

really sweet. I'm and we were

17:05

dating. Decided to be exclusive. Went

17:08

away for the weekend around Thanksgiving

17:10

we get back to town. I

17:12

got a figure early message in

17:14

my instagram from a woman who

17:17

says that they have been dating

17:19

exclusively. Pretty much the

17:21

entire time. We. Have been she

17:23

didn't know about me, I didn't know

17:25

about her. I brought this up with the

17:27

guy of and seeing and army he

17:30

he know gave me the story that he

17:32

was an interest in dating her in

17:34

his having a hard time breaking things off

17:36

although she had told me that it

17:38

was kind of the opposite where he had

17:40

told her he wasn't sure where he

17:42

and I were going and he wanted to

17:45

continue dating her. Whatever.

17:47

I decided that I could look

17:50

past at if he. Was

17:52

to be honest with me moving forward

17:54

and that he had lost the chance

17:57

at dating people are while we dated.

18:00

The for me I wanted us to

18:02

do he, he wanted to be exclusive.

18:04

So as it now we have to

18:06

be exclusive and can't fab. And you

18:08

have to tell me if you're sleeping

18:10

with other people So it's been going

18:12

pretty okay. I think you know we've

18:14

we're still seeing each other and he

18:16

still really attentive that I can't stop.

18:19

Checking. His Instagram followers.

18:22

And. Seen that he's active in Snapshot.

18:24

I asked him about Snap Chat is an

18:26

hour in our forties who uses that app

18:28

and he gave me some story that he

18:30

just downloaded it so he could. Use.

18:33

A snapshot code to get he's

18:35

waving which feels like a bullshit

18:37

story and his always activities hunt

18:39

bears so I don't know. I

18:42

don't know if I'm rightfully suspicious

18:44

or if I'd be to give

18:46

him a chance to show me.

18:49

That he is a good guy and stop.

18:52

Hyper fixating on you know, his

18:54

social media arm and things like

18:56

that. You. Know there's been a

18:58

couple times where he has got a call

19:00

from a woman I've never heard him speak

19:03

about before and he doesn't answer them when

19:05

we're together. I don't know. Again, it's as

19:07

random. And. Only met one

19:09

of his friends See has adult children

19:11

and hasn't told them about me because

19:13

he's. Still, Separated. He's

19:15

been separated for year and half, but

19:18

I do know that the reason he

19:20

and his wife split was because he

19:22

was having. On line

19:24

emotional affairs with women he

19:26

meets at like work, advance

19:29

and maybe other. Women:

19:31

He knows unlike his cycling.

19:33

Crew. So yeah

19:35

down am I as being an idiot and

19:38

my probably been lied her and she did.

19:40

And should I get over checking a social

19:42

media nine hundred times a day and just

19:44

trust them. You.

19:47

Can absolutely trust this

19:49

guy. You can trust.

19:52

That. He's cheating on you. You can trust that

19:54

is flirting with other women. You can trust that

19:56

there's probably another girlfriend or to out there you

19:58

can trust to use. Doing to

20:00

you exactly what he did to have

20:02

that other woman. Which. Is

20:05

exactly what he did to the woman who

20:07

is now divorcing him. Look.

20:10

You either need to accept that. This

20:12

guy. Is this guy

20:14

out can tap the My As

20:16

Foods poster on the wall when

20:19

someone shows you who they are,

20:21

believe them the first time you

20:23

can either dump him. Or

20:26

drive yourself crazy policing him for the rest of

20:28

your life. Look. Those

20:31

are your options. You can trust

20:33

that he's a lying, cheating, conniving,

20:35

flirting sack of shit. That

20:38

he clearly has proven himself

20:40

to be and stay with

20:43

him and reconcile yourself to

20:45

that. Or. You can end this

20:47

relationship. If that's going to make

20:49

you miserable, If. Knowing

20:51

that he is not. On

20:54

what saab or snapshot could get in

20:56

his teeth whitened one at a time,

20:59

He's on what sapard snapshot of humor

21:01

for which you both because. There's

21:04

other women out there that he

21:06

enjoys talking to. And.

21:08

There will always be other women out there

21:10

that he enjoys at the very least. Talking

21:13

to. Twenty.

21:16

Could do about that. Would. You gonna do about that?

21:19

You're. Either going to dump them. For.

21:21

That. And the fact

21:24

that he hasn't introduce you to any of

21:26

his friends or his family's he's only been

21:28

divorced he said. I think for are we

21:30

not even Dorset left his wife a year

21:32

and a half ago. He

21:34

does. Sometimes people coming out of a

21:37

long marriage it can be awkward to

21:39

introduce a new girlfriend or boyfriend or

21:41

and befriend to. Family

21:44

mutual friends. You

21:46

know, especially if the divorce was a contentious

21:48

one. If it was conflict heavy, people may

21:50

feel like they had to take sides and

21:53

he may not feel like. Introducing.

21:56

You to his friends is something that he can.

21:58

do right and why am i making rationalizations for

22:01

this asshole. He's not introducing you to his friends

22:03

because his friends probably know other girlfriends and he

22:05

can't trust his friends not to say something in

22:07

front of you that might blow it all up.

22:11

You say you like him a lot. Do

22:13

you like him enough to

22:15

let him lie to your face? Can

22:17

you make the lying to my face explicit?

22:21

That's what a DADT relationship is.

22:23

We talk about don't ask, don't tell

22:25

is one form ethical non-monogamy can take

22:27

but there's no DADT without lie to

22:29

my face. DADT

22:32

means don't tell me where you were or

22:34

who you were with and if I

22:36

ask you where you were or who you were with,

22:39

have a convincing lie ready

22:42

to deploy because I

22:44

want to live in a bubble where you

22:46

know and maybe you want to live in that bubble where

22:49

there's some plausible deniability where he conducts himself in

22:51

such a way that you can choose to believe

22:53

there's no one but you. In the back of

22:55

your mind you kind of know there are others.

22:59

Is he demonstrating to you that he

23:02

prioritizes how you feel and is at least

23:04

willing to pretend to be living how you

23:06

would like to live? Is he unwilling

23:08

to do that or incapable of

23:11

doing that? What that's going to

23:13

do to you is drive you crazy because you're

23:15

going to be policing his social media all the

23:17

time. End it.

23:20

But if you can accept it, there's power.

23:22

You ask if you could trust him. Yeah,

23:25

you can trust him to be exactly who

23:28

you know him to be and once you

23:30

accept and trust that that's the guy that

23:32

he is, you don't have to hunt for

23:34

proof 24 hours a

23:36

day that that's the guy he is because you

23:38

know and you've accepted

23:40

it. You can't accept it.

23:42

You're going to have to break the fuck up with this

23:44

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25:25

in hell. Hello!

25:27

To down Nancy in the tech savvy at

25:29

risk youth. I'm a guy

25:31

in my mid twenties calling for some advice

25:33

about dating, flirting, and finding partner. As someone

25:35

with a low sexual attraction to others, I.

25:39

Experience attraction very rarely. It's only been like

25:41

two or three times in my life that

25:43

I found myself drawn romantically are sexually to

25:45

another person. Actually, Consider myself

25:48

very lucky that one of those instances of

25:50

attraction actually resulted in a brief relationship, which

25:52

led me to a lot of self discovery.

25:54

Of. the relationship ended poorly through i discover

25:57

the joy and warmth of being seen

25:59

cared for and desired, and seeing,

26:01

caring for, and desiring someone else in

26:03

turn. It's something that I didn't

26:05

even know I wanted until then. But

26:07

now I have a problem. I would like to

26:09

experience that feeling of connection again. I want to

26:12

relate to another person just like I did in

26:14

that brief fling, but more seriously. In

26:16

short, like many people, I would very

26:18

much like to find a person to date. But

26:21

I feel I have a special difficulty with it, given my

26:23

lack of attraction. I've attempted

26:25

to meet people on dating sites, but that hasn't

26:27

really gone well. I find it

26:29

very difficult to evaluate people's profiles based on

26:31

their photos and prompt responses and the like.

26:34

I ask myself if I'm attracted to anyone that

26:36

I see there, and the answer is no. How

26:39

could I be? I don't know them

26:41

at all. And I feel like I frustrate the

26:43

people that I connect with on those apps because

26:45

they'll sense something obviously flirty and I'm unable to

26:47

reciprocate sincerely. I

26:49

think that the best hope for me lies

26:51

in meeting someone in person, but I'm like

26:54

completely oblivious to flirtation. There have

26:56

been many times in my life when my

26:58

friend said things like, she was totally into

27:00

you. You didn't notice? What?

27:03

Maybe it's because I saw myself for a while as

27:05

being sort of outside the whole love thing. I

27:08

don't know how to participate in this fun

27:10

dance of communicating interest since I never really

27:12

felt the desire to do it. It

27:15

also doesn't help that, as I've heard you

27:17

say and noticed for myself, the

27:19

rise of dating apps has contributed to the

27:21

fall of these like gay spaces where people

27:23

could go to socialize face to face, potentially

27:26

with the intention of finding a partner. So

27:29

to summarize, do you have any advice for navigating

27:31

online dating with a low level of baseline attraction?

27:34

I feel like it would take me some time to

27:37

develop feelings for someone, but I don't want to waste

27:39

people's time, and I don't know how to

27:41

recognize when I truly won't be more than friends with

27:43

someone. Also, how can I

27:45

learn to recognize when people are being flirty with me?

27:48

I figure my best chance is starting with people who

27:50

are already making the effort to flirt with me, but

27:52

if I can't recognize that, then it's a shame. And

27:55

Finally, where do you suggest people go these

27:58

days to meet people of all ages? The

28:00

Genders as an alternative to dating

28:02

apps. My. Advice for you

28:04

like my by certain everybody by bus

28:06

for people who are. High.

28:09

Libido al asexuals. My advice for

28:11

people who are low libido. Or.

28:14

A sexual or gray aces. Is.

28:17

The same move on all

28:19

fronts. Beyond. The

28:21

apps chit chat with people. You can actually

28:23

get to know somebody pretty well. I have.

28:25

I used to dismiss the possibility of making

28:28

real connections on the internet with people you

28:30

never met face to face all. have some

28:32

really good friends that I've known for years

28:34

and gotten really close to have been there

28:36

for me and I've been there for them

28:39

and I've never met them in person. All.

28:41

Just chit chatting d I mean

28:44

swapping vacation packs and there to

28:46

listen you can do all that

28:48

was somebody the you connect with

28:50

on the internet. You.

28:52

Can do All that was somebody connected with on

28:55

a hook up up. One of my really close

28:57

friends connected with a joke about where you should

28:59

also leave the buck and house. You should go

29:01

places he should do things is to join clubs.

29:03

yeah there are less. Queer. Space

29:06

now than there used to be fewer queer spaces now

29:08

than there used to be. But. There

29:10

are. Queer. Clubs

29:13

cleared. Magic.

29:15

The Gathering. Is that still

29:17

a thing? There's a queer

29:19

hard place in Seattle. Kickball

29:21

leagues, softball leagues, skiing and

29:24

snowboarding clubs for queers. Put.

29:26

Yourself out there and meet

29:28

people. And. I'm right

29:30

there with you. I have no game.

29:33

I never know when submission flirting with

29:35

me are attracted to me in part

29:37

because I can't imagine why anyone would

29:39

want to. and. The key to

29:41

my romantic and sexual success was eventually just

29:43

looking at somebody who I thought might be

29:45

flirting with me or that my friends told

29:47

me was flirting with me. you had friends

29:49

tell you. Hey, that girl was really into

29:51

use. I've turned to that person after somebody

29:53

else told me that meme like just really

29:55

direct, are you flirting with me. Is

29:58

this or that? Can I play with you? Are we

30:00

learning is is what's happening here that

30:02

can send somebody with running. Some people

30:04

don't ever want that explicitly acknowledged, but

30:06

that can also be very disarming. And.

30:11

Get. You laid. If getting laid is what you

30:14

want. You also say that you are very low

30:16

libido. A Sexual.

30:19

Grey's. For. A romantic that

30:21

this rarely happens for you while there

30:23

are dating apps for a sexual so.

30:26

google. A sexual dating apps, a whole

30:28

bunch of different ones. Come.

30:30

Right up. You. Can put that

30:32

out there about yourself. And.

30:35

There. Are other insects was in the

30:37

world ice to get in trouble thirteen

30:39

years ago because I would get letters

30:41

from people who are bisexual who are

30:43

complaining that they were treated very poorly

30:46

by gay people and by straight people.

30:48

and I would sometimes point out that

30:50

there were. Bisexual.

30:52

People that maybe if the horrible mana

30:54

sexual didn't understand you didn't want to

30:57

date you You people could you people?

30:59

Madonna, Disco, Bisexuals You people I take

31:01

it backs you wonderful people could date

31:03

each other so want to sort of

31:06

dust up My that by surface excellent.

31:08

Thirty years ago when I tell them

31:10

hey, you know you also have the

31:12

option of dating each other's asexual people.

31:15

Gray sexual, gray, romantic, a romantic. These.

31:18

Are real identity is true,

31:20

Sexual orientations, romantic orientations. and

31:22

you're not the only one.

31:26

And you can lead with

31:28

that. You should lead with

31:30

that. You're. Getting and. Day.

31:32

Hook up apps if you're on grinder.

31:35

People are going to assume that you

31:37

are not a sexual. Because. People

31:39

go to Grind Earth's Seeking Sachs if

31:41

what you are seeking is a longer

31:44

term connection that may or may not

31:46

at some point lead to. Sexual.

31:50

Attraction which takes a long time

31:52

in you to kindle. Put that

31:55

out there and you will attract

31:57

interest from people who. Are.

31:59

Some. We're or who also or Grace

32:02

or a sexual a romantic girl

32:04

metics. Or maybe

32:06

just the idle curiosity and passing interest

32:08

of people who were looking for sex.

32:10

but because they like your picture or

32:12

whatever, are willing to engage in chit

32:14

chat. There's a lot of people who

32:16

use Grinder. Like. People use

32:18

to use bars use other hookups in that

32:20

way to where they do a lot of

32:23

socializing their yeah there's a lot of people

32:25

are just looking predicts and blockers shut people

32:27

down if the dick is an instantly available

32:29

but you will find just like I used

32:31

to be able to find him as queer

32:34

spaces there are so many of anymore those

32:36

gay bars. Some people were in those gay

32:38

bars, hunting deck, On.

32:40

A Mission Some people in those gay bars. To

32:43

chit chat, to socialize, To.

32:45

Meet people. To

32:48

had some human connections. the lot of

32:50

that going on on the apps to

32:52

and you can. Access. That

32:54

you can be open to that. So. Anyway,

32:57

move on off back in France

32:59

and. Lead. With it lead that

33:01

you are. Asexual.

33:04

A Romantic Or Gray. Sexual Or gray

33:06

romantic. Seeking. Same.

33:10

Seeking. Same as officer who. A good

33:12

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34:53

plan. Hey, so I'm

34:56

a bi woman who recently has

34:58

been hooking up with a polyamorous

35:00

man and a lesbian,

35:03

and I didn't

35:05

really think about STIs

35:07

when I hooked up with a lesbian because I don't

35:10

know, I just like don't know anyone who's ever

35:12

gotten an STI from lesbian sex. Like

35:15

I know you technically can, but I just don't

35:18

keep it on my radar. But then

35:20

the polyamorous man asked me to ask her

35:22

what her STI status was

35:24

and I did, but I was

35:27

wondering if that's ethical,

35:29

like she didn't consent to be part of his

35:32

polyamorous situation or network and she

35:35

doesn't have to let him know. So what

35:37

are your thoughts? I'm a little confused.

35:40

You say that she didn't consent to being

35:42

part of his polyamorous network,

35:44

but by dint of the fact that

35:46

she was fucking you and you were

35:48

fucking him, she was part of

35:51

a polyamorous network

35:54

that included him. So I

35:56

don't think there's anything, if it

35:58

was unethical for him to

36:00

ask you to ask her, it was

36:02

unethical if we run

36:04

that tape in reverse for you to

36:06

start fucking him while you were fucking her. Look,

36:11

he has every right to ask whether

36:13

your other partners have been

36:15

recently tested in what their STI status is.

36:17

If that question is unacceptable to you, you

36:19

don't wanna put that question to the other

36:21

people that you're sleeping with who

36:23

aren't putting that question to you, which is how STI spread,

36:25

people not putting that question to each other, you

36:28

could have ended things with him and told him that

36:30

it wasn't something you were gonna ask your

36:33

other partner, partners. Lesbians

36:36

do get sexually

36:38

transmitted infections. Skin

36:41

to skin sexually transmitted infections,

36:43

herpes, HPV, you

36:46

can transmit even a couple of the

36:48

biggies through

36:51

enthusiastic skin

36:54

to skin contact, and they're just excisoring, but

36:56

oral gonorrhea is a thing, so

36:59

yeah, there are definitely sexually transmitted infections

37:01

that lesbians need to be aware of, and

37:06

if a lesbian has

37:08

multiple partners, regularly get

37:10

tested for. I'm not going to make

37:13

false equivalencies. Lesbians have far fewer sexually

37:16

transmitted infections than gay

37:19

men do. Lesbians

37:22

typically don't have as many partners,

37:24

outside partners, additional

37:26

partners, don't

37:29

have as much recreational or anonymous sex.

37:32

Everyone who's ever tried to start a

37:34

lesbian version of

37:36

Grindr lost their investment capital

37:39

for reasons that have a lot to do

37:41

with, I think, some essential fundamental differences between

37:43

men and women, males and females, that

37:47

we will get into on some other show,

37:49

but yeah, lesbians still do get

37:52

and can transmit STIs, and your

37:54

male partner, particularly if you weren't

37:57

using protection in that relationship. had

38:00

every right to ask you about

38:03

the STI status of your other partners. And

38:05

if it hadn't occurred to you that

38:08

you could get an STI from a

38:10

woman, from a lesbian, I'm

38:12

glad he asked you that question. I'm glad you had to

38:14

think about it. Happy New Year, everyone.

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40:06

Hey Dan and everybody.

40:09

I'm a 30 something

40:12

grad student, woman in Colorado

40:14

in my first poly relationship

40:17

with a man

40:19

that I've fallen completely and

40:21

totally in love with, like

40:23

in a way that I didn't think

40:26

was possible for me. And

40:29

it's been like an incredible, fulfilling

40:32

relationship. My partner has

40:35

a long term partner. They own a

40:37

home together. They've been together for six

40:39

years. And I've

40:42

been with my partner, the partner

40:46

that me and my mother share. I've

40:48

been with them for a little over a year

40:50

now and it's starting to hit me that I

40:52

will never

40:55

be able to create a foundation

40:57

with this person in the same

40:59

way that they created a

41:02

foundation with their other partner,

41:04

you know, like long-term travel,

41:06

time away, living together,

41:08

supporting each other day

41:11

in and day out, reliably having

41:13

the other person in their bed

41:16

every night, you know, all of those like

41:18

little things that for

41:20

me, I guess really make

41:23

a relationship in a lot of ways,

41:25

just like that really mundane,

41:28

boring stuff. And

41:30

after a year and a lot

41:33

of stress, I'm pretty mentally ill

41:35

in grad school, just

41:37

maxed out, burnt out,

41:40

exhausted, emotionally

41:43

unpredictable. So

41:46

that's coming into play here, but I,

41:48

you know, I'm also realizing that I'm

41:50

not going to get that with this

41:52

person. And I'm in Colorado, it's really

41:54

hard to find men

41:56

who have the same

41:59

values. as me. I

42:01

don't know if I want to leave this relationship

42:04

or if I should just like stick it

42:07

out. I know finding a primary when you

42:09

already have a secondary can be like kind

42:11

of hard. Do you have

42:13

thoughts about like what questions I should

42:15

be asking myself at this time or

42:17

like resources I should be looking into?

42:21

The choice you face is pretty simple. You

42:23

can have this guy

42:26

and give up a lot of

42:28

the things that you associate with long-term

42:30

relationships, a lot of those little intimacies,

42:32

that mundane boring stuff, going to

42:34

bed with the same person every night, waking

42:36

up beside that same person every morning.

42:40

Or you can break up with

42:42

this guy and go try to find all of those

42:44

things with someone else.

42:47

What are you willing to give up

42:49

to be with this guy? I have

42:51

said for 30 plus years there's no

42:53

settling down without some settling for. For

42:56

the last year he may have been

42:58

the right guy for you and you weren't settling at

43:01

all and he was the right guy at

43:03

the right time, in the right place, but

43:07

going forward over

43:09

the long ass long term he

43:12

may not be the right guy for you. Maybe

43:14

this was one of those great STRs I talk

43:16

about, a great short term relationship.

43:18

What you need to do now is

43:20

stick the dismount, be

43:22

single and go find somebody

43:25

who wants a

43:27

monogamous relationship or someone who

43:30

is in search of a primary

43:32

nesting partner if that's what

43:34

you want. Now if you're

43:37

going to have an open or polyamorous

43:39

relationship, or actually a polyamorous relationship, open

43:41

relationships don't involve a lot of obligations

43:44

to other parties necessarily, but

43:46

a polyamorous relationship really does

43:48

because these are concurrent committed

43:50

romantic relationships. If

43:52

you're in a poly

43:56

relationship in the future with some other man where

43:58

you are the primary partner, and the nesting

44:00

partner and you're practicing a kind of hierarchical

44:03

polyamory, even under that circumstance,

44:06

you're not going to have the full and undivided

44:08

attention of your partner who may have another girlfriend

44:11

just as he won't have your full and

44:13

undivided attention at all times because you have

44:15

another boyfriend. It's also really bad for monogamous

44:18

relationships when two people have

44:21

each other's full and undivided attention at all

44:23

times. It's good to be the fuck away

44:25

from each other, have other friends, other interests,

44:27

even go on separate vacations.

44:31

Interestingly that is one thing

44:33

that research into successful

44:35

long-term relationships and marriages shows again

44:37

and again is separate

44:40

vacations, time away for

44:43

weeks at a time correlates

44:45

very strongly with relationship success.

44:48

So you might not want to go to bed

44:50

with the same person every night, wake up next

44:52

to that same person every morning all

44:54

your life because that doesn't correlate very

44:56

strongly with long-term relationship success. I digress.

45:00

What do you want? What are you

45:02

willing to settle for? If

45:05

you want to be the primary partner, that position

45:07

is filled. You can't be this person's primary partner.

45:09

So if you want to be with this person,

45:11

you have to let go of all

45:14

of that. How can you

45:16

structure the relationship though so that you

45:18

can let go of and grieve the things that

45:20

you'll never have with him and

45:23

be able to focus your attention on the things

45:25

you do get to have with him? You

45:28

may not want to live with them, but

45:30

can you live near them? Would

45:33

he spend three nights a week at your place,

45:35

four nights a week at their place? What

45:38

can you ask of him? But you

45:41

can't be in competition

45:44

with his primary partner. You can't be

45:47

like two kids looking at their parents, divide up

45:49

the bowl of ice cream and blowing

45:53

up in a rage if you don't think you're

45:55

getting as much as his other

45:57

partner is getting. They

46:00

own a house together, they have a long

46:02

history together at this point. You

46:04

will be the junior partner. If

46:08

that's unacceptable to you, don't have

46:10

a polyamorous relationship. Terry and

46:12

I have had a few boyfriends over the years. The

46:14

ones that didn't work out were the ones who were

46:17

angry and upset that

46:19

we had a long history

46:21

together and were

46:24

tied together, owning a home

46:26

together, being married in ways that we

46:28

would never be tied to them. The

46:31

guys who resented that,

46:34

not the guys who could

46:37

acknowledge that and maybe rethink what it is that

46:39

they wanted out of a long-term relationship and let

46:41

that go and focus on what

46:43

was good and what they

46:45

got out of this relationship, those guys, the

46:47

guys who resented it, the guys who couldn't

46:50

let go, the guys who saw it as

46:52

a competition, they didn't last. If

46:55

you don't think when you project yourself into a future

46:57

a couple of years from now, you

47:00

can't picture yourself being

47:02

at peace in this relationship, having

47:04

let go of the expectations that

47:06

you had about long-term committed romantic

47:08

relationships that were shaped by a

47:11

culture that only ever talked

47:13

about or really showed you

47:15

what monogamous relationships and exclusive

47:17

relationships looked like. If you can't project yourself

47:19

in a future where you're at peace with

47:21

a different kind of relationship, just end this,

47:23

end this now without feeling

47:26

tragic or heartbroken about it. You

47:28

had a really great year. People

47:31

come together for certain periods

47:33

of their life and then people

47:35

often separate. And

47:38

if you can stick the dismount, if you can

47:40

part as friends, it

47:43

was a successful relationship even

47:45

if you got out of it alive. All

47:48

right, before we get to this week's

47:50

listener response calls, I want to share

47:52

a couple of listener comments about last

47:54

week's show posted at savage.love says Leslie,

47:57

I have to disagree with Dan, handcuffs

47:59

and ballgags. are NOT entry-level

48:01

stuff. Entry-level stuff are

48:03

blindfolds and spankings, maybe arms tied

48:06

to the bed posts. Being

48:08

gagged or having my hands tied behind my

48:10

back scares the hell out of me. I

48:13

would advise the caller to say, I'm sorry, but

48:15

you deserve to find someone who is into what

48:17

you're into and send them on their way.

48:19

Hey, I'm on the record

48:21

saying handcuffs are not great bondage

48:23

gear for novices. Accidentally twisted,

48:26

they can bruise or chip bones too

48:28

tight, they pinch nerves, but handcuffs

48:30

are cheap while safe, comfortable bondage

48:32

gear is expensive, so

48:34

people will sometimes play with

48:37

handcuffs as novices. As

48:39

for ballgags, not only not entry-level

48:41

stuff, but not to be used

48:44

on anyone who isn't themselves turned

48:46

on by having a ballgag in.

48:49

As for bed posts, blindfolds, spankings, entry-level for

48:51

you, Leslie, but not for everybody else, some

48:53

people would rather be gagged and be able

48:55

to see than be not

48:57

able to see and gagged, which

49:00

is why these things have to

49:02

be negotiated with each new play

49:04

partner. Alright, Thingamajig wants to get

49:06

in on the salt burn discourse.

49:08

Sometimes a cigar is just a

49:10

cigar, Thingamajig writes, and sometimes being

49:12

grossed out by someone licking a

49:15

dirty bathtub drain is just

49:17

being grossed out by someone licking

49:19

a dirty bathtub drain. I don't

49:21

think it takes elaborate reverse psychology

49:24

to explain why people think ingesting

49:26

something dirty is grosser than something

49:28

dirty touching your skin. Alright, it

49:31

seems to me that what fucking a

49:33

freshly dug grave lacks in grossness, it

49:35

more than makes up in shockingly transgressive

49:38

symbolic violation of the dead. Also, there

49:40

are influencers and porn stars who've been

49:42

out there selling their bathwater to fans

49:44

for years before salt burn came along,

49:47

so drinking dirty bathwater is definitely a

49:49

thing that some people can see themselves

49:51

doing. But for the record, Thingamajig,

49:54

not everyone who was grossed out by that

49:56

scene was secretly turned on by it, but

49:58

you know how when you listen to someone and go on and on

50:01

and on about how disgusting gay sex is and

50:03

then you can't help but think something's

50:05

up. Well, listening to so many

50:07

people go on and on and

50:09

on about how disgusting that one

50:11

scene in a movie full of disgusting

50:14

scenes was, yeah,

50:16

I think something's up. That doesn't mean

50:18

everybody out there is into drinking dirty

50:20

bath water or licking dirty drains, but

50:23

it doesn't mean that not everybody isn't

50:25

either, if that makes sense. All right,

50:27

for more listener comments and more of

50:29

my responses, check out struggle session,

50:31

the weekly bonus column for Magnum Subs. Goes

50:34

up almost every Thursday at savage.love. I

50:36

didn't get one up this Thursday, last

50:38

Thursday as I was sick. Sorry about

50:40

that, Magnum Subs. You can expect an

50:42

extra long struggle session this Thursday with

50:44

two, count up two, Muppet-faced

50:46

men of the week. All right, on

50:49

to listener response calls. This

50:53

is a response call about Jim Etiquette.

50:55

As a woman, you get hit on a

50:57

lot at the gym and for

50:59

safety reasons, I always go

51:02

to gym management. I go to a

51:04

big corporate gym, but it's privately owned.

51:07

I know both of it, owner is very personally,

51:09

building that relationship with those kind of people, that

51:11

way you can just kind of walk up and

51:13

be like, hey, I really was

51:15

hoping this would just go away on its

51:17

own after I like told this guy like,

51:19

ah, no, thanks, I'm listening to my music,

51:21

I'm working out, dude, and he just keeps

51:23

bothering me, could you maybe say something to

51:25

him? Because that way you are making a

51:27

little bit of anonymity. I'm sure that those

51:29

guys are hitting on more than just you

51:32

and probably bothering other people, so you might be

51:34

helping some other people out by telling them, and

51:36

again, it's a little bit of a safer way.

51:38

I am very fortunate that my partner

51:41

is often with me at the gym, and usually

51:43

this doesn't happen, but whenever I'm alone, almost like

51:45

clockwork, they come up right when you start getting

51:47

sweaty. So yeah, call of

51:49

gym management, it's a little bit of a safer

51:51

way. Just my two cents comes from a little

51:53

lady at the gym. Hey, Dan,

51:55

this is in response to the caller who

51:57

is losing his erection around oral sex. Curious

52:00

why you don't recommend Viagra. I haven't

52:02

heard you make that recommendation, but for

52:04

this kind of situation, when

52:06

the specific goal is keeping an

52:08

erection, and especially when

52:11

following your great advice about

52:13

teaching and working with

52:15

a new person, that can be a little awkward. It

52:17

can take a little while. There can be some stumbling

52:21

during that sort of learning process, and having

52:23

a little medical backup, I think, is a

52:25

great way to have some confidence that it's

52:27

gonna go well. I think, especially if you

52:29

don't have a long-term partner, when

52:31

you have maybe a hookup, or maybe a short-term

52:33

partner, that kind of thing can take a little

52:36

while to learn each other's bodies, but having

52:38

a little medical backup like that, even if it's

52:40

a little bit of a placebo effect, can really

52:43

help, in my experience, in that new

52:45

situation. This is a

52:47

response for the bi lady who

52:49

keeps dating men that are sticking

52:52

their dicks in their middle condoms.

52:55

And I thought, the Mona's advice was great, Dan's advice was

52:57

great, but lady, if you're looking

52:59

for something simple, you're a bi lady, date

53:01

women. You know, it's not gonna be sticking

53:04

their naked stinky dicks in you without your

53:06

permission. Women, even if you

53:08

score a woman who's got a dick, I

53:10

seriously doubt she's gonna be sticking it in

53:13

you without a condom, or without your permission.

53:15

So, date women, give it a try. And

53:19

we're gonna leave it there. We've got three

53:21

ways to get your question or comment to

53:23

us for a future show. You can record

53:25

your question or comment at savage.love.askdan, or

53:29

you can make a voice memo app on your phone

53:31

and email your question or comment to q at savage.love,

53:34

or you can call us on our landline and

53:36

leave us a message at 206-302-2064. You've

53:40

got a few more weeks to grab

53:43

advanced discount tickets to Hump Part One,

53:45

which premieres in Seattle on February 8th

53:47

before touring the country after January 31st.

53:50

Tickets for Hump Part One go up

53:52

to full price, so take advantage by

53:54

going to humpfilmbest.com and

53:56

getting your discounted tickets now. Follow

53:58

me on Instagram and Twitter. at Dan Savage.

54:01

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54:03

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54:05

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54:07

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54:10

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54:12

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54:14

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54:17

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54:19

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54:22

it's spelled. The Savage Lovecast is

54:24

produced every week by Nancy Hartunian

54:26

and me and Nancy and the

54:28

tech savvy at risk youth. We

54:30

will all be back at you next week with

54:32

a new installment of the Savage Lovecast. Thank

54:35

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54:37

reward here for everyone who listened

54:39

to the very end. Our next

54:41

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54:43

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54:48

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