0:39

Brittney Sherman: Hey, there's Carlitos. I just cut you off.

0:43

You were about to start, go for it. Sonia Meza-Leon: No, I wasn't.

0:46

I wasn't. Oh, I thought you go, Brittney Sherman: okay, well, this is a fun start.

0:51

Hopefully it's not a sign of things to come, but welcome back to

0:56

Sonia Meza-Leon: Scott. We have

1:00

Brittney Sherman: a big popular topic that may have fallen out of the headlines

1:05

a little bit recently, but was huge news 15 years ago when it happened.

1:11

Uh, Sonia, what is our true crime topic today?

1:16

Today, Sonia Meza-Leon: we are talking about Dennis Rader, also known as BTK,

1:20

which stands for bind, torture, kill.

1:23

And he was essentially the BTK killer.

1:26

Self-proclaimed, uh, not shy about letting people know that.

1:31

He anonymously of course, took responsibility for the murders

1:36

that happened, which there were 10 of them between 1974 and 1991.

1:41

He was not actually caught until 2005 and he was caught because of his own.

1:48

Um, I think I would call it, uh, a slip up, you know, and, uh, oh,

1:54

definitely because of his hubris and a bit of his naive a D in my opinion,

1:58

I mean, he was stupid for believing. It

2:00

Brittney Sherman: was pretty, you know, we'll, we'll cover why it was dumb, but

2:03

it was a really dumb way to get caught. Sonia Meza-Leon: Exactly.

2:07

Um, but that sort of speaks to his arrogance.

2:09

He is serving 10 consecutive life sentences right now in Kansas.

2:14

He was born in Wichita, Kansas. Um, he spent his time there growing up and then he moved to park city, Kansas.

2:21

He was born in 1945 on March 9th.

2:24

And he was born to, um, Dorothea may Raider and William Elvin.

2:31

Raider Brittney Sherman: sidebar.

2:34

Yeah. I had an oboe instructor named when I was a kid and I have

2:41

never heard that name since. So I think that's awesome.

2:45

Sonia Meza-Leon: DOR Tia or door Dorothea.

2:47

Well, I think what this same thing,

2:50

Brittney Sherman: but like positions, I think it's the same thing

2:53

because it's spelled the same way. It's just, she pronounced it like the original German intended.

3:03

Sonia Meza-Leon: very macho. Um, all right.

3:06

So Dennis Rader, he's one of, uh, four.

3:12

Yes, he's one of four sons. Um, well, I'm not going to get too much honestly, into the Raider family,

3:19

especially, um, you know, out of respect for the tenders, Raiders wife and his two

3:25

children who had to endure the craziness that ensued after he was found out.

3:33

And then of course, you know, these are people who were, you know, raised by him

3:39

and who were married to him for all those years while he was doing these crimes.

3:44

So, you know, I, I've watched a lot of documentaries with, um, in

3:47

particular Dennis rater's daughter talking about, um, how they didn't

3:50

know and how devastating it was.

3:53

And I really feel for these people. So I'm not going to spend a ton of time on that.

3:56

We'll talk a little bit later about some of the current situations, but, um, you

4:00

know, I have to say Dennis Rader, BTK, I'm not going to say he's my favorite

4:05

serial killer because that's a weird word.

4:08

I do believe. Yeah.

4:10

In my heart of hearts, I hate him the most of all other serial killers.

4:15

And I'll tell you why. Okay. Um, and you got, yeah, no for sure.

4:20

This guy for all of these years.

4:23

So he, he, what what's interesting about Dennis rater and his ability

4:28

to sort of, um, hide from the police and the authorities for so long

4:33

was that he was not a stupid man.

4:35

Certainly he was moderately educated.

4:39

He was white. He was like five, nine.

4:42

He was, you know, your regular old guy.

4:45

He worked for in a variety of capacities that gave him access

4:50

and taught him, um, how to really get really good at his crime.

4:56

In addition to that, he had. Pretty serious issues, uh, sexual perversions.

5:04

And when I say that, because there's lots of whatever's out

5:07

there, you can fetish all day. How about it? But he enjoyed torturing animals.

5:12

He endured joy tortured. People in particular women and, um, in ultimately murdering them

5:19

and leaving him them in an UN undistinguished, humiliating state.

5:26

Um, you know, and he did this for what, 30 years.

5:30

I mean, it's kind of incredible to think that he went on for that

5:32

long, especially because he taunted the police as much as he did.

5:36

So, you know, let's, we'll dive into each of the murders individually, but

5:41

Britney, any, anything you want to talk about in particular with Dennis Rader

5:45

before we really start going down? And I think it's important

5:48

Brittney Sherman: to paint a little bit of a picture of his background,

5:51

or you covered it a little bit. Um, and we don't need to go into a lot of detail cause we're going to have a

5:55

lot to talk about, uh, with the crimes themselves, but just to get to know the

6:01

man Dennis Rader, before he became BTK, as he wanted to be known as, uh, he.

6:09

When he was growing up as a child, he was a, a quiet, withdrawn, socially

6:16

awkward kid who showed tendencies of violence early on, as Sonia

6:21

mentioned, by killing animals and taking pleasure in that he was never a

6:28

good student, never very intelligent.

6:32

Um, I mean, he was a pretty good looking guy growing up, but always

6:38

kind of struck out with the ladies. Uh, he graduated high school in 1963 and he went to a community

6:46

college for a couple of years. And then in 1965, he went to Kansas Wesleyan university or college in Salina.

6:54

And he dropped out because he wasn't really making his grades cause he

6:58

wasn't a really a smart guy and.

7:02

And this was of course, like the heart of the Vietnam war.

7:05

And so he was afraid of getting drafted.

7:08

So he enlisted himself in the air force.

7:12

So he would not be on the front lines, on the battlefield.

7:17

And so while he was in the air force, he started to show signs of his future.

7:25

Uh, violent side is stalking tendencies.

7:29

He would, uh, he had a very inflated ego.

7:32

He envisioned himself like James Bond.

7:34

He would go to bars and like I women, and like stalk them a little bit, not,

7:41

not to your point where that he got, but he carried a gun with him because

7:46

he felt like he was undercover and always needed to be protected and would

7:52

step up if anything were to happen.

7:54

And he was always prepared then, uh, he, he came back in 1969, I believe it was.

8:02

And he in 1970 and he, uh, He, he met his future wife who Sonia, you

8:11

know, I kind of agree with you. We don't need to discuss too much.

8:15

Uh, they were, they dated for a short time.

8:17

Paula Dietz is her name and they were married in 1971.

8:21

Uh, Sonia Meza-Leon: after they were married, they had two children, Carrie and

8:24

Brian, and for all practical purposes, you know, if you hear from Paula and

8:29

from the kids, they had a very normal. Um, you know, they were, they were as shocked as everyone else.

8:38

Um, and so betrayed, obviously when they heard about this, because until then,

8:44

you know, there was no, there was no, um, information, you know, or nothing

8:50

that would lead them to believe that he was capable of anything like that.

8:53

I think there was only one time where Dennis Rader lost his temper with his son

8:58

and they had to pull him off of the sun.

9:02

Um, but that doesn't make you a murderer.

9:04

That just means that you've got some anger issues.

9:06

Right. Um, so, you know, really, there's a lot of interviews out there with, um, you know,

9:12

the daughters, uh, and, and I don't know, maybe the son, but, um, it's a lot of

9:17

Lynch, interesting information out there. I would definitely take a look at it.

9:20

So, Brittany, as you said, there was a lot of let's go back to, um, you know,

9:25

of course talking about the zoo Satan.

9:28

Which is torturing, killing and hanging of animals.

9:31

He also acted out a lot of sexual fantasies he had, and he will go on

9:36

to talk about these fantasies and tell and say that ultimately that's what

9:41

drove him to do the things he did. He called his drive a factor X, and he blamed everything really on factor X.

9:51

And that seemed to drive really every move he made, um, or at

9:55

least all the moves when it came to his, um, criminal behavior.

9:59

And what's crazy about it is, you know, here's a guy who,

10:03

again, this is a very long time. And if you look at, you know, how he murders these people over time,

10:10

I mean, it's all over the place. It's like some in the seventies, eighties, and then in the nineties, but like

10:16

he skips like 10 years between them.

10:18

Um, sometimes, you know, no, and I think that's, of course, one of the reasons

10:23

they couldn't catch him also because we're always led to believe that serial

10:25

killers, um, you know, they escalate.

10:28

So in my opinion, when we get to the first.

10:31

I feel like that's the worst crime he committed and nothing.

10:34

I'm not saying, you know, not to, it's not picking favorites,

10:38

but it was the one where children were involved and were murdered.

10:42

And to start to me at that level is where I'm, I'm just terrified at this person.

10:47

And also so angry with him. I have no tolerance for, for torturing children and the things that he, he did.

10:53

Um, but let's talk about the sexual fetish that he was interested in, including

10:57

voyeurism autoerotic asphyxiation and cross-dressing, he would always

11:02

like in his neighborhood, when he was young, sneak around, watch women get

11:05

undressed, he would wear women's clothing.

11:09

He would masturbate with ropes and bindings on.

11:12

He would even do that dress up thing.

11:15

And, um, you know, in-between the murders, right?

11:18

By the way, I don't know if you guys realize what autoerotic asphyxiation is.

11:23

Um, it's a fairly, I don't know, common thing actually, which I

11:28

it's shocking, but essentially it's the strangulation of yourself.

11:34

Hence the auto, um, until you write about to the point where you climax

11:40

and then you take off whatever you're strangling yourself with and it's

11:44

supposed to really, um, sort of.

11:49

Elevate your, your orgasm.

11:51

Exactly. There are many people, um, out there in the world, um, celebrities who

11:57

we know have died while trying, uh, well, well, not trying, but they

12:01

did try cause they didn't succeed. Yeah.

12:03

But, um, a couple of them that you will remember would be Michael Hutchins.

12:08

And then also, um, you, I think David Carradine passed away like that.

12:13

What I saw, um, on the documentation that I looked at was that Rader

12:19

would tie himself to a rope that was tied to the bathroom door

12:25

knob, and then leaned forward.

12:27

So that's how he would control himself now.

12:31

And I, and I guess, because he was so close to the floor,

12:34

maybe, I dunno, I dunno. I don't know how he kept himself, but you know, there's always

12:38

a risk when you're practicing. Autoerotic asphyxiation that you're not going to recover from it.

12:43

Brittney Sherman: I don't know how he, how he got away with this, but there

12:47

is a picture that he turned over to the police of himself when he was caught in

12:52

2005 of himself wearing a woman's mask, which was a common theme for him while he

12:59

was partaking in autoerotic asphyxiation and wearing some of his victims clothes.

13:06

And he actually tied himself to a tree branch and was hanging in the air one.

13:13

I don't know how you physically do that without actually killing yourself.

13:17

And two, I don't know how you get away with that and set up a camera to take

13:20

a picture of it, but it was a really disturbing picture that he was kind of

13:24

proud to turn over to police officers. Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh, he was a weird dude.

13:29

He, he definitely taunted the police.

13:32

He wanted people to know that he, whoever he was, um, and he hourly caught

13:38

himself BTK that he wanted them to know.

13:41

Um, and we'll talk a little, a little bit later. I think we should go ahead and get into the crimes, but we can talk a

13:45

little bit about how along the way he communicated with the police.

13:50

Um, but you know, let's start, let's start, uh, at Dennis

13:54

Rader, you know, Has two kids.

13:57

This is right around the time. Oh, one more thing I do want to mention by the way he was going to, and he

14:03

graduated from Wichita state university and of course he was studying, he

14:08

was studying justice administration.

14:10

So he, from an early, early, early on, he started really working out, um, and trying

14:17

to educate himself on the typical, um, you know, the, the criminal justice system and

14:23

how he could get work his way around it. And Wichita state university is also where BTK, I, uh, also known

14:29

as Dennis Rader made a lot of the photocopies of the documents and

14:33

letters he sent to the police. So they were able to trace those back to Wichita state university.

14:38

'cause and, and just remember guys, if you read anything about this case,

14:43

he was fairly crafty sometimes, but then other times he was fairly stupid.

14:46

So I was like, well, I don't, I don't know what this guy's doing.

14:48

He seems to be off the rails. He would make photocopies, he would never send the original letters to the police.

14:54

I assume that's because he didn't want them to trace anything about

14:56

the letters, but there was still, you know, you could still track down.

15:00

And I think IBM helped them track down.

15:03

Um, you know, at least the photocopy model photocopier models and where he could get

15:07

them and they traced them back to Wichita state, but everybody in the Republic.

15:10

So you couldn't really figure it out. It was, uh, it was too hard to track down, but they got to at least have that detail.

15:17

But, um, yeah, no. See he for a guy who didn't have any time, he had some time.

15:21

I mean, it sounded like every waking moment he had was either spending

15:25

with his kids in his family, going to school or studying how to

15:28

kill people and honestly stopped. Well, he,

15:32

Brittney Sherman: I almost feel like he was, you know, he went

15:35

to when he was trying to fill his time by being a community guy.

15:41

And like, he was a boy scout troop leader.

15:45

He was like president of the church council.

15:48

He was always trying to be well-known. And I, I got the impression and I don't know about you, but I got the

15:53

impression that the murders happened when the other activities died down.

15:59

And he actually did the other activities to try and quell his urge to kill.

16:05

Sonia Meza-Leon: Sometimes sometimes, but I think his number

16:08

one priority was always, you know, the sideline piece of it.

16:12

It just you're you're right. There were definitely moments in his life where either he was experiencing

16:17

stress or pressure that would drive him. But most of the documentation in the letters that he, he first off

16:22

he's very well, you know, written when it comes to or well documented.

16:27

Anyway, he wrote, he has all of these letters.

16:29

He has like journals. He has. Pictures that he drew of these poor people being tortured.

16:34

And then he wrote a book and he, uh, and so nicely of him, he was

16:38

like, oh, I'm writing this book. Um, but I'm going to donate the, donate, the proceeds to the victims.

16:44

So I think he did that. And that was, again, really well-documented he spoke in, in

16:50

depth with the police about exactly what happened at each murder too.

16:53

So he, and that's one of the ways that they were able to tie some

16:56

of these murders to him because he would, no one else would have known

16:59

the information that he provided to them, um, except for the murder.

17:02

So it was really, really weird and interesting, but, um, you know, let's

17:07

talk a little bit about the first, um, set of murders because the first,

17:11

the first set of murders actually were formers two adults and two children.

17:17

And this was on January 15th, 1974 in Wichita, Kansas.

17:22

The victims were Joseph Otero.

17:25

He was 38, Julie Otero.

17:28

Age 33, Joseph Otero Jr.

17:32

And he was nine and then Josephine Oterra who is 11.

17:37

So, um, I can, you know, let's walk through some of this, you know, I

17:47

don't want to spend too much time on it because the, the, the, the

17:50

stuff with the kids is just horrific.

17:53

It is, um, By the way the bodies were discovered by the kids or the

18:00

family's oldest son who was not there at the time and walked in on this.

18:04

Yep. So, so very, very sad.

18:07

Um, from what I understand, it sounds like that, you know, in typical

18:11

fashion he breaks into the house.

18:13

This is, was fairly common. Emma of his, he would break into the house, he would have a gun.

18:18

He would tell whoever he was breaking in that, you know, he was, he told a lot

18:23

of them that he was going to rape them, but not kill them and then robbed them.

18:28

And so, but he never, we all know he never raped anyone.

18:33

Brittney Sherman: I mean, anyone, there was a lot of sexual tendencies,

18:35

but there was never any indication of.

18:40

Sonia Meza-Leon: Exactly. And there was never any semen or any physical, you know, proof of rape as well.

18:46

So it seemed apparent that what he was after was a sexual, um, you

18:52

know, sort of, uh, he was really trying to fulfill a sexual need, but

18:56

didn't have anything to do, honestly.

18:59

Sex per se with another person.

19:03

Um, I think that, um, and as we can go through this, we'll talk a little

19:06

bit more about it, but, you know, emotions of the people that Dennis Rader

19:10

murdered were suffocated and strangled.

19:12

Um, and, and then one of them I think was stabbed.

19:16

But for the most part, he liked to watch people die slowly.

19:22

And of course, if he was murdering more than one person, that he was probably,

19:27

um, the, uh, the rest of whoever, the people there were likely watching him

19:32

kill some of the people in front of him. So for instance, the Otero family.

19:38

So we have a mom and dad who have their two children, nine and 11 with them.

19:43

Of course, this guy goes into the house. They're terrified.

19:46

This is the beginning of the BTK murders.

19:49

So nobody has any idea. Now, remember in crazy ass, 1970s, um, where Brittany, you know, we just

19:57

were talking about, you know, all the craziness that happens in the 1970s,

20:00

like the California freeway killer, which there were multiple, the golden

20:04

state killer, the east area rapist. Like it just doesn't seem like anybody like PR.

20:09

I mean, nobody cared what, you know, it was a free for all.

20:12

It was so easy to find people and to murder them.

20:14

There seems to be so much tension. It was crazy.

20:17

I know crazy. Like, I just, I mean, it, in a most of these crimes to me were targeted

20:25

at women and what was even crazy.

20:27

I think you and I talked to your dad the other day, but with the

20:29

golden state killer, which has bananas, like I think around that

20:32

time where the east area rapist, you know, the rapes were happening.

20:36

If you got caught for raping someone, you would probably get like 30

20:39

days or 90 days or even probation. You're not even going to get really in trouble coral Raisy.

20:44

So maybe that's why Dennis Rader was telling these people, oh,

20:47

I'm just going to rape you. Because at the time, apparently that was not a big deal or as

20:51

not as bad as murdering them. But I was really confused a lot about Dennis Rader.

20:55

Um, you know, I, I have questions along the way.

20:58

Let's again. Sorry, go back to our first set of murders.

21:01

Joseph Otero, Julio Terros Joseph junior and Josephine.

21:06

So it sounds to me like Dennis Rader in his first foray.

21:09

And by the way, this might've been his first set of murders, but he

21:13

was very, very well-planned in this.

21:16

He had, here's what he says that he used to do.

21:20

He, because he spent quite a bit of time finding his art, his targets,

21:24

and then he would find, spend quite a bit more time studying them.

21:28

So he would, what he said he would do is he was, he would troll for

21:33

a new victim or set of victims.

21:36

And then he, once he determined who that would be or who they would be, he

21:40

stalked them for a quite a period of time.

21:43

He figured out how to get into their houses when they were

21:46

home, who was going to be. And he made himself, um, you know, he planned around those events.

21:52

So he was really good at it. So back to January 15th, 1974, these, this families, you know, in their house.

22:01

Um, and again, Raider comes in.

22:04

He's saying that he's only going to rape them or he's only gonna

22:08

burglarize them actually just looking

22:10

Brittney Sherman: for, he was like looking, he says he was looking for money and a car to get away because he was on one

22:16

Sonia Meza-Leon: in criminal, on the road. Yeah. He loved to have this say, you know, this idea that he was

22:20

all famous, which has bananas. Um, but that's somewhere something sort of consistent with his behaviors.

22:25

I think she had a really like, his ego is huge.

22:29

So here we have the entire family in the bedroom.

22:33

Um, we will later know that they find Joseph, uh, the father

22:38

and the mother in the bedroom. And what Dennis Rader does without getting into too much graphic detail is

22:45

he puts a bag over Joseph Arturo's head.

22:48

And while the other people are sitting there, right.

22:50

We're all in the same room together. So clearly they could see what was happening.

22:55

The daughter and the son were watching his parents like be murdered.

22:58

Essentially. Brittney Sherman: It's important to know though he.

23:02

Like his name would he bound all of the Otero family.

23:07

He tied them up by their arms and legs behind them.

23:10

So they couldn't fight back. Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh yeah.

23:13

And he has he even. Brittney Sherman: He had a gun with him that he never had any intention

23:19

of using, like you said, he w he didn't use guns in his murders.

23:23

He had other means, uh, but he used the gun as intimidation to allow

23:29

them to get the family to comply.

23:31

So that way he could proceed with his crimes.

23:33

A lot of people usually think of compliance as the best defense,

23:37

because they believe that they will survive because that's what they are

23:42

being told by the perpetrator where in most cases we ultimately find that

23:47

compliance is actually the worst option.

23:50

And most of the time it does not end well for the victims when they may have

23:54

had other opportunities to fight back, Sonia Meza-Leon: especially with.

23:58

You have a situation like this? Now, granted, there was, it was a very naive time.

24:03

So I'm sure these people were hope we're believing them, but they had a lot

24:06

at stake if they didn't and you know, what's weird is he rarely wore a mask.

24:10

He which I also find really weird because here's a guy who was pretty

24:15

well known in the, um, the town.

24:18

And I don't know how big the town is, but I mean, to be involved in all the

24:22

things that he was doing and to not wear a mask, I am shocked that people

24:25

didn't, weren't able to identify him.

24:28

But what everybody said was he's like a 5, 9, 5, 8 white

24:31

guy with dark hair, big deal. Like, I mean, nothing interesting or out of the ordinary.

24:37

Um, so really hard to track him down.

24:40

Okay. So let's go back to Joseph Otero, Joseph Matera bag on his head, Dennis Raiders,

24:45

centrally stuff, stuff, suffocating him, sitting there watching this guy.

24:50

Die. That's what Dennis Rader liked to do.

24:52

That's what got him off. He liked to watch the last breath come out of people's faces, whether

24:59

it be a man, a woman or a child, and that's what, that's what got him off.

25:04

That's why he masturbated to it. Um, and I'm assuming that it had something to do with him practicing

25:10

autoerotic asphyxiation himself, but he knew what that felt like.

25:13

And it got him to the, you know, all amped up or tweaked up.

25:16

He called it teed up, I think is what he would refer to it as he was teed up.

25:20

And he had to do something about it. Um, this guy, by the way, this fucker, he, I don't think there's a Pintu.

25:27

Uh, w w bad enough for this guy, this guy, I think at the time,

25:30

cause he's 10 consecutive licenses.

25:33

Um, I mean, I would have said to death for sure, but I think at the time Kansas

25:38

didn't have the death penalty in place. There are also some people who say that he murdered other people and he didn't tell

25:43

the police about those people, because that would have put him around the time

25:47

where Kansas did have the death penalty and he didn't want to disclose that.

25:50

So all kinds of crazy. So, sorry, back to the here's this dad on the ground bag on his head suffocating.

25:59

He passes out Dennis Rader, think this is a member.

26:02

This is his first time that sort of enacting this on humans.

26:06

And so Dennis Rader thinks he's died. So moving on, the fun is gone.

26:10

He moves on to the wife, Juliet or Tara.

26:13

Now again when remember Brittney Sherman: actually no, no, no, it was, it was reversed.

26:18

He actually, he actually killed or thought he killed Julie

26:22

first, before he attacked Joseph. And it was

26:24

Sonia Meza-Leon: Julie. Well, both of them did multiple times.

26:29

I think they came to over and over again because he just didn't

26:32

know how much he had to, like, you know, just strangle them.

26:35

Um, it was, I think, more than four, um, it sounded like, and I don't know who

26:39

could attest to that except Dennis Rader. So, I mean, he's, he's telling his own story, but he struggled with it and he

26:45

was, he admitted that his, he went back and forth between them multiple times.

26:49

And he, and then I think what, and one time Joseph doTERRA came back to, he had

26:54

bitten a hole through the plastic bag. So Dennis, Dennis Rader took off the plastic bag, put on a t-shirt and then

27:00

put the plastic bag on top of that. So he couldn't bite through it.

27:03

So they went back and forth with this quite a number of times,

27:07

which must've been horrific again.

27:09

It's awful horrible. Horrible.

27:12

So again, so those have been Julie either dead or unconscious, but pretty

27:17

sure dead, um, hard to tell because I think they were there, you know,

27:20

I don't know how long they were in the house before someone found them.

27:23

Probably not that long because the kid who found them was, um, I did 10th grade.

27:27

So he would've been staying there. Certainly. Um, again, these Joseph and Julia, um, you know, suffocated, strangled,

27:38

Now that we have those two folks, either dead or incapacitated.

27:43

He turns to the Joseph Jr.

27:46

Who is nine years old.

27:49

He takes Joseph the nine-year-old into another bedroom.

27:53

He ties him.

27:56

Or if he's not already tied, he, it appears that they think he laid

28:01

this young man, this little boy.

28:03

Um, and this little boy was conscious and I don't know if it was mouth was

28:07

gagged or not, but he's eyes were open.

28:10

He was aware Dennis Rader could see the terror in his face.

28:13

And I just can't find them how you would do that to a child, not only to dentistry.

28:18

Do that to a child, but he had got off on watching the blast

28:22

breath come out of Joseph. And he, the, like I said, the police have some thought that cause there

28:29

are there, I guess chair marks in the carpet that he pretty much put the chair

28:33

on over Joseph or around him or near him and just sat right there and look

28:38

straight in his face while he died. Oh, what's so awful.

28:43

Yeah. But if you're trying to get, if that's what you get off on, that's what you

28:46

want to see what I don't understand.

28:48

And it sounds to me like that most of these people had a

28:52

t-shirt on over the plastic bag.

28:55

So that's a little conflicting because if you're, what are you seeing, if you can't

29:00

see their face, when they're dying, you just waiting for them to stop breathing.

29:03

And then, you know, that's a little different than looking

29:05

someone in the eyes as they die. So my thought is.

29:08

I don't know. I don't remember what Dennis Rader says, or if he's saying it accurately,

29:12

but I'm not sure if he ever discloses, which he puts on first with Joseph.

29:15

He definitely said that he put the t-shirt on first because he didn't want

29:18

them to buy through the plastic anymore. That's just, that's all he kept coming back to life.

29:25

Uh, Brittney Sherman: well, yeah, I mean, yeah, sure.

29:28

But while, well, I, I didn't hear anything about the t-shirts actually,

29:31

um, certainly about the, you know, the other stuff he discussed, but

29:36

I didn't know about the t-shirts. So that's, that's brand new information that is

29:40

Sonia Meza-Leon: more disturbing. Oh, rebel.

29:43

Um, Brittany, do you want to tell us about, so again, we know that

29:47

little Joe Little Joseph died. Do you want to tell us about Josephine the last that's the only members.

29:54

Brittney Sherman: Yeah. So, so Josephine to me, as you said, the Otero family is probably for you.

30:01

The worst one for me, it's also the worst one.

30:03

And it Josephine in particular because I just found this absolutely disgusting.

30:09

So after Joseph, Julie and Joe Jr, have all been killed, he takes Josephine into

30:20

the basement with her arms and legs tied up behind her and hangs her from a pipe.

30:30

And she is strangled and dies hanging from a pipe while he.

30:37

Masturbating next to her watching her die.

30:41

And semen was actually found in the basement next to her

30:45

body at the crime scene. Now we said he never raped anyone.

30:49

He never sexually assaulted anyone, but he left DNA, which at the time was not

30:54

known, but he left his mark and showed how severely, sexually driven he was.

31:01

And to an 11 year old girl, this is the part that would, this is the first one.

31:07

Well, I guess she's the fourth one, but the first crime for her spree.

31:11

And it's, it's the most horrendous to me because like you said, not

31:15

only is it killing children, it's getting sexual satisfaction out of

31:22

doing so this, this man, who's a stand up citizen member of the church.

31:31

Uh, at the time his wife was pregnant with his first daughter, Carrie.

31:35

And like, he was this amazing family man who just, it was, I, I

31:41

was so disgusted and the left is like I said, he left his evidence.

31:48

He didn't really clean up. He, he, uh, uh, wanted it to be a disgusting scene that officers would

31:57

find that would make the press.

32:00

And, uh, it would be and unique a unique crime that he could take credit for.

32:09

Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. So this is, this is the beginning.

32:11

This is the beginning of, you know, BTK.

32:14

Um, all right. So moving on to our next murder slash victims, more than one.

32:23

Brittney Sherman: I think before we move on to the next victim, we have to talk

32:28

about his first d'Elegance in reaching out for fame and taunting the police.

32:36

Because after the Hewitt, he was actually, I believe seen leaving the

32:41

house, but the person that saw him could not give an accurate description.

32:46

And since he didn't feel like he was giving, getting enough press,

32:51

he sent a letter to the television station, K a K E in Kansas, uh,

32:58

admitting that he was responsible. And again, this guy not very intelligent, always had poor spelling and grammar.

33:07

He wrote that he wants to be known as BTK for bind, torture, kill,

33:15

except he didn't even spell it. Right.

33:18

He grew up bind Totour you left out the R.

33:23

Kill. So this guy was, I just thought it was, it was an early sign of what seemed

33:30

to be a lot of mix ups, mess ups of things that I feel like you almost

33:37

should have been caught sooner for. And then that didn't give him enough press.

33:42

So he called a news editor at a newspaper and said, Hey, go to the library because

33:49

I left a letter in engineering book and he was hoping someone would find it.

33:54

And so this guy went and in the, uh, letter, he again, claims

33:59

responsibility for the murders. And he said, you will know me as bind them, torture them, kill them.

34:07

B T K. Sonia Meza-Leon: But L well, let's go back a minute because he, that letter was left

34:16

and, well, I don't know when it was left, but he called them and let them know that

34:19

letter was available in October of 1974.

34:22

Right. But he actually had killed someone in April of 1974.

34:27

So he killed another person and damaged her brother before the letter.

34:33

And I think that's where he got frustrated was that there were

34:36

two sets of, you know, crimes.

34:38

And that's where he's like, what do I got to do to get some attention around it?

34:42

Yeah. Good point. So that's where we start.

34:44

That's where we talked about Kathryn Bright and her brother, Kevin Bright,

34:48

who is a survivor of BTK and who has been on multiple interviews

34:53

talking about what he went through. He saw the guy, he saw Dennis Rader.

34:57

He saw his sister die. Um, he.

35:01

Came back to live multiple times and somehow ran out.

35:04

Um, but let's talk a little bit about what, what happened with

35:06

Kathryn Bright in her home? Kathryn Bright was Burt murdered in 1974, April 4th, 1974.

35:14

She was 21. Her brother, Kevin was with her and he was 19, uh, essentially done.

35:20

And Ray, Dennis Rader broke into the house, um, from the front porch

35:25

and he hid in the bedroom, which is what he would typically do.

35:27

And sometimes for quite a long time, um, she arrived home and Raider wasn't

35:34

expecting her brother to be there too. So of course he came rushing into the room, you know, gun

35:40

out, um, the whole nine yards. He told them the same shenanigans, right?

35:45

He was at war criminal. I just needed to get out of there.

35:47

He needed money. He forced the two into the bedroom.

35:51

Um, they tied each other up essentially.

35:55

And then, um, He took Kevin into the other bedroom.

36:00

Now this poor guy is still alive. Like, oh my God talking about this.

36:04

Um, they takes Kevin to the other room so that he can have his way with Catherine,

36:08

Kevin breaks out of the, the cord or the, whatever he was tied up with.

36:14

He runs in there to the other room to try and help assist her in Dennis Rader shoots

36:19

him right in the face, which is crazy.

36:22

Yeah. Brittney Sherman: It doesn't like to use guns, but again, he

36:24

was using it as intimidation. Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, it wasn't intimidation.

36:29

He needed, he needed to get his brother away from the Kevin Bright away from,

36:33

because that was in a way they were, I mean, he was going to be without man.

36:37

Brittney Sherman: Totally. But I think that, I don't think he had any intention of using the gun.

36:41

It was meant as intimidation, but he ha he was forced into a position.

36:44

She had to use it, but that's not how he got satisfaction out of.

36:48

Yeah, Sonia Meza-Leon: no, definitely. He was only using it.

36:50

I mean, he didn't expect Kevin to be there. Um, that's, what's crazy about it, you know, so he was thrown off by this.

36:57

Um, so of course he shoots Kevin in the head.

37:00

Kevin goes down, he thinks he's dead.

37:03

Apparently Kevin's not dead.

37:05

Um, Catherine, um, you know, also put up a really big fight

37:09

and he ultimately strangled her.

37:12

Um, he, but it didn't work.

37:18

He, I don't know if it was because she was so young, but you know,

37:22

he, he, he couldn't control her as much as he wanted to.

37:26

So he, um, ultimately ended up stabbing her to death, but her

37:30

and her brother were very, very, very challenging for Dennis Rader.

37:34

I mean, it was, um, not an easy, um, you know, not an easy murder for sure.

37:40

Yeah. Maybe at, you know, in, remember Kevin Bright runs out, he escapes, he there's

37:47

a lot of conversations with him. Yeah. There's tons of interviews.

37:51

I have a feeling that's why Dennis Dennis Rader stopped.

37:53

And then his next murder wouldn't occur until 1977, because he's probably scared

37:58

that this guy who had seen him right in his face, like literally standing there

38:01

with him, talking to him, you know, there's a guy out there who can, you

38:05

know, who can essentially identify him.

38:08

I have a feeling that Dennis Rader stopped or waited because of that.

38:11

And then he got his courage up and he couldn't control his factor X and

38:15

that's when he went back out again. But, um, yeah, Catherine, Catherine Bright, uh, put up a heck of a fight and

38:21

ultimately that one didn't go as well.

38:23

As I know, I think that Dennis Rader had expected.

38:26

I don't know if he masturbated.

38:29

At that scene or not, but it sounds to me like it was quite a debacle in, you

38:33

know, he was just trying to get out of there and to think that he would

38:36

have someone out there running around who knew what he looked like, but when

38:39

they asked the guy multiple times and he was shot in the face, by the way.

38:42

So the police really couldn't believe and they didn't know.

38:44

And, and Kevin couldn't really say either.

38:47

He was like, okay, 5, 8, 5, 9 white guy, you know, I mean,

38:51

what looks like everybody else?

38:54

You know, how do you, how do you pin that down?

38:56

I mean, it was, it was tough. So that, that one's a, that one's a tough one.

39:00

And I think it's really interesting to watch some of those, um, those

39:02

interviews, Kevin Bryant was on Larry King live and he talked a bit

39:06

about how that, how it went down.

39:09

And if I'm not mistaken with the exception of some of the children who witnessed

39:13

the murder of their parents in the later murders, Kevin Brightspot any one of

39:17

the only witnesses that's still alive.

39:21

So, uh, two more murders down a horrible.

39:25

So now, well, Brittney Sherman: or, sorry, sorry.

39:27

One more. Yes. Yeah. So, so we're at five murders and then once

39:31

Sonia Meza-Leon: survivor. So moving on to 1977, this is when, for some reason in there, uh, Dennis

39:39

Rader takes a break, not Brittany. You had said.

39:42

You had said that his daughter, he, his wife was pregnant

39:45

with his daughter was at 1974.

39:48

Exactly. Brittney Sherman: So after actually he found out that his wife was pregnant.

39:53

Um, I think she was so I know she was pregnant during the Otero murders.

39:57

I don't know if he knew she was pregnant during your Terra martyrs,

40:00

but he certainly found out at minimum after the Catherine Bright murder.

40:05

And he was so excited to be a father.

40:07

Like he, as I said before, like, I feel like he had this like empty, nervous

40:12

energy that drove him to commit crimes when he didn't have anything else to do.

40:16

But he was so excited to be a father.

40:18

He decided I got to turn my life around.

40:20

I got, gotta be a good dad. And so he took like three years off, like you said, he so BTK.

40:27

He was so proud. He left all of this evidence.

40:31

He claimed excitement for like, he, he claimed responsibility for it.

40:35

And one of the notarized. But then he wouldn't dormant for three years because he was so

40:40

dedicated to be a doting father. But ultimately that factor X crept back up and he couldn't suppress it anymore.

40:48

He even referred to it as a monster or his evil.

40:52

And so 1977 BTK strikes again against Shirley violin.

41:00

I think that's how you pronounce her name. Sonia Meza-Leon: I'm not sure. Yep. That's right.

41:02

Shirley violin. So Brittney Sherman: here's another instance of a young child.

41:08

Child's not a victim here, but he uses the child essentially to bait the mother.

41:13

He's trolling apart. I Sonia Meza-Leon: think he's a victim.

41:16

You don't think he's a victim? Well, I mean, Brittney Sherman: he's totally a victim, but he's not, he's he, wasn't

41:23

a victim of violence set the word.

41:27

I don't even know the word to say Sonia Meza-Leon: he's a surplus.

41:30

I want to survive. Uh, yeah, he was held hostage.

41:33

I mean, he Brittney Sherman: was, he was held hostage.

41:36

So this, this little kid, you know, he's, he's playing at the park

41:40

and as we always say, and totally true stranger danger, uh, Mr.

41:48

Raider comes up to this kid and shows him a picture of his wife and kids

41:53

and says, do you recognize them? Uh, and the kid is like, Nope, no I don't.

41:59

And I think what Raider was doing was trying to ultimately see this kid

42:05

and, uh, follow him to his mother.

42:08

Well, he never found the mother, so he just kept on kind of stalking

42:13

the kid and the kid goes home.

42:17

Raider takes his time.

42:19

He's, he's very good at stalking women because in the three years

42:25

that he kind of took his break, even though he wasn't violent, he.

42:30

I was following women and stalking them.

42:34

So he's watching this woman from the streets.

42:37

He's watching this kid, he decides he's going to take his chance.

42:41

So he goes and knocks on the door, the kid answers.

42:44

And then he's essentially like, Hey, you remember me?

42:47

I showed you those pictures. Well, I'm actually a detective and I need to talk to your mom.

42:54

Sonia Meza-Leon: So, so you know, what's interesting about this kid.

42:57

How old is this kid? Brittany? Six years old, I believe.

43:00

Yep. He's little. He's a little boy. He's a little kid.

43:03

There were three, there were three kids in the house at the time

43:05

that Shirley Vian was killed. It's so awful.

43:11

And the kid who, the kid, uh, they enter, I saw an interview with this kid, the

43:15

six year old kid, who's now grown up. He saw everything and he blamed himself as an adult.

43:21

Brittney Sherman: I mean, he's six years old. There's nothing he could have done.

43:25

He again, he had his gun that he brought for intimidation.

43:30

He forced the three kids into the bathroom and locked them in the bathroom.

43:36

Uh, Ben, while he attacked their mother, uh, he told her that he was going to

43:43

rape her, uh, and, but not kill her.

43:47

And so she again, seemed to be compliant.

43:51

Uh, they even smoked a cigarette together before he, she let him, well,

43:57

she believed was letting him rape her.

44:00

Uh, but of course he bound her.

44:03

He put a cord around her neck and strangled her and then

44:08

ejaculated into her panties.

44:12

Sonia Meza-Leon: So hold on a second. So surely violin is sitting, I mean, who said that he, they

44:18

smoked a cigarette together. I believe he did.

44:21

Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Right, right.

44:23

I can't imagine that. I'm like, what.

44:27

I mean, I guess Brittney Sherman: I, well, I know, but like, if, again, I mean, I think these,

44:33

I think these people unfortunately are thinking, okay, if I comply, I'll be okay.

44:39

And so this woman is thinking my kids are in the bathroom.

44:42

As long as they stay safe, I'll be compliant with this man,

44:46

but he's not going to kill me.

44:49

Of course we know that's not what happened. I'm just trying to, I'm trying to get in the mind of the victim to

44:55

just think why they would come. They would work in the way that they.

45:00

Sonia Meza-Leon: I probably thinking that, you know, doing whatever she

45:04

could to make sure kids are safe, who were locked in a bathroom and

45:07

something happens to her, then he's probably going to hurt them as well.

45:11

The other thing is he doesn't have a mask on again.

45:13

So, you know, the likelihood of her letting him go, yeah, the

45:16

likelihood of her letting you know him letting her go, it's pretty slim.

45:20

But I guess she's not thinking in those terms, even though you've had.

45:24

Previous murders happen. And, and I'm assuming people remember that those

45:28

Brittney Sherman: were three years. Those were three years ago now.

45:30

So you kind of think that if you're living in that time, it's a little bit forgotten.

45:35

You think that it's moved on it can't, it can't be the same

45:38

Sonia Meza-Leon: thing, I guess. I mean, I just, I don't know.

45:42

I would be on alert. I mean, they're in Wichita, Kansas.

45:45

I mean, I, to, I apparently before this, there was very little crime

45:50

or very little, um, you know, murder happening in which doc, Kansas.

45:54

So all of a sudden it amped up like for, you know, three years in the seventies,

45:59

I'm surprised, especially at the extent that which the kids were killed.

46:03

Um, but you know, cause at that point they were like, The it's not just

46:07

women, it's kids, it's a free for all. It could be men as well, back to Shirley VN.

46:12

So she has a cigarette.

46:15

They're doing whatever. Um, you know, as you said, he ejaculated into some panties,

46:22

but didn't officially rape her. Um, and then the kids somehow, or another, there was an eight

46:29

year old, a six year old.

46:31

And what a younger kid, I

46:33

Brittney Sherman: think, I think the other child was younger.

46:36

Sonia Meza-Leon: These kids smart. Well, first off they could see out the door, the door wasn't all the way.

46:40

Shut the guy. Demonstrator tied it shut so they could pull it a bit open and they did, and

46:47

they watch their mother be killed. Um, then of course I'm sure that terrified them.

46:51

So they broke the bathroom window out and they were able to escape.

46:55

So now we've got four people who could identify Dennis Rader.

46:58

A couple of, of three of them are children, but still, you know, you've

47:02

got, you've got people and they were able to interview these poor kids and, and

47:05

I'm sure gave them a lot of counseling. I mean, it must've been horrific because I think she was a single mother.

47:10

So I don't know where these kids went after she died, but you know,

47:12

this, this turned her life around. I don't

47:15

Brittney Sherman: know. I don't know if there's anything more traumatic that you could

47:17

ever experience in your life. Of course, it's life around.

47:19

I mean, it's unreal. Sonia Meza-Leon: Um, especially if this guy harbors the guilt

47:24

for this, because that's Brittney Sherman: so tragic.

47:28

So later in 1977, again, he is, uh, he can't control his factor X anymore.

47:35

So he decides to move in on one of the many women that he was

47:41

stalking and he begins to have an obsession with Nancy Fox.

47:48

So like many times you see in scary home invasion movies that are terrifying,

47:55

the criminal cuts the phone line.

47:57

The beginning of the nut of nightmares for generations caused by horror movies.

48:04

He broke into her duplex and we did her there for a while

48:12

for her to get home from work. He brought in his gun.

48:17

He told her, which is oddly, I think kind of true that he had a sexual dysfunction.

48:25

And the only way to fix it was to rape her.

48:29

Now that part is crazy. Of course, that's ridiculous.

48:33

But if we jump back to when he served his time in the Vietnam war, he

48:38

actually hired a sex coach because he had, I dunno if it was true sexual

48:44

dysfunction, but he felt that he was terrible at sex and needed guidance.

48:51

I don't know if it's what we would consider like EDD today, or if it

48:55

was really just, he wasn't as good as he hoped he would be, but he

48:59

really believed that he needed help.

49:01

So I think he was actually kind of calling up back on his early

49:04

years as an excuse to attack.

49:08

And in his words, rape this moment, which of course he would never do.

49:14

They both changed clothes or took off their clothes, got into the bedroom

49:19

and he prayed for, uh, proceeded to bind and torture and string.

49:24

He even told her who she, who he was and confess to his previous murders to her.

49:31

Sonia Meza-Leon: And then like, not like it couldn't get any worse, but

49:37

at this time let's recall that Dennis Rader was working for ADT alarm company.

49:42

I know isn't that crazy? Why not?

49:45

You know, I mean, talk about having access and information that he would really find

49:49

useful to be able to commit these crimes.

49:52

So on his way to work the next day, um, uh, unfortunately it was when they

49:58

found Nancy, Joe, and they found her because he called them and told them that

50:03

there was a murder at her address who she was and that he had murdered her.

50:08

He called, I mean, he called, I think he called the, um, he called the news.

50:12

Who did he call the newspaper? Brittney Sherman: He called the police.

50:15

He actually, he, no, I think he called Sonia Meza-Leon: the police.

50:18

Oh, he did. He called the local police. Brittney Sherman: He called the police.

50:22

And again, Dennis, not the most smartest, most intelligent guy he

50:27

said, and I'm going to quote this. Yes.

50:30

You will find a whole aside at 8 43 south Pershing Nancy Fox.

50:38

That is correct. So he's trying to get caught.

50:45

The police know are on high alert. He drops, the phone starts running away and I believe it was, it was

50:54

a, a fire fighter, a first responder that actually picked up the phone

50:59

and continue talking to the police and may have seen him running away.

51:02

So there's potentially another

51:05

Sonia Meza-Leon: witness. Yeah. But like white guy, five, nine, you know, dark hair.

51:11

It's. He's so sloppy.

51:13

Well, I'm, you know, like I said, I'm really shocked that he didn't get caught

51:17

so much earlier because he was sloppy. And because he's like, uh, you know, I mean, how did no one ever

51:23

notice this guy had a, no one ever be able to identify him?

51:27

He was fairly well known. I mean, he was the leader of a church.

51:30

He was a leader of the Cub Scouts. I mean, he knew people, he was respected, um, or at least early on.

51:36

We'll talk a little bit later when he's a compliance officer with, which is when

51:41

he really starts taking things out on, on hid, the people he's working with.

51:46

I mean, it was kind of terrifying. So right around this time, again, BTK is feeling like he's on

51:53

top of the world because he has successfully murdered another person.

51:57

Um, apparently he must have forgotten about the guy that he left, uh, live

52:01

Kevin Bright, because if he was going to say something or cause I'm sure

52:05

Kevin Bright, you know, they interviewed and I'm sure that they publicized

52:08

that he didn't have any information. So that must have been a sigh of relief for Dennis Rader.

52:12

Right? So then at some point after he kills Nancy, Joe Fox Raider

52:17

sends a sarcastic poem to the newspaper and he does sign it BTK.

52:23

But for some reason, the news in it's a, it's a, it's a, uh, it's a

52:28

poem about his murdering Shirley, um, which was one of his previous murders.

52:33

Right? I think it was the one before Nancy and he sends it to the, the newspaper.

52:40

Really even notice it, they send it to the classified section and then

52:43

it doesn't have any money with it. Cause I guess that was around December.

52:47

Right. So I guess they're thinking, you know, early 78.

52:52

So probably before Valentine's eighth, they thought it was a Valentine's day thing.

52:55

So they were, they didn't, it didn't include any money, so they're not

52:58

going to run the ad, but they had it another time where they had something

53:01

and signed by BTK where they just, you know, um, you know, they had gotten

53:05

multiple letters from him by now. Somebody should have put this together.

53:10

I mean, it's all in Wichita, right? So it's not even a matter of it being a different jurisdiction.

53:15

It's all the same. I think the police struggled with trying to, um, even those went on for so long.

53:20

I don't know if they didn't have enough manpower or they weren't focused or they

53:24

didn't have, I mean, they, they certainly didn't publicize the information.

53:31

It sounds to me like they had a moment where, and maybe they didn't, but

53:36

Raider, you know, is upset with them because he's not giving them enough.

53:40

And it leads them to believe in what he says to them is, you know, I'm going to

53:44

do this again, and now he does it again.

53:47

And the police do blame themselves a bit for not stopping it because they

53:50

think if they acknowledged him in the Shirley, um, the Shirley murder,

53:55

then they wouldn't, he it's possible.

53:58

He wouldn't have murdered Nancy Fox surely, uh, via, I doubt that.

54:02

I think he still would've murdered Nancy Fox. I honestly, I mean, we know that he progresses.

54:07

Brittney Sherman: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Uh, the w here's another area where I feel like he should have gotten caught, which

54:15

has no shame or blame here, but he, he wrote a poem called Shirley locks that he

54:23

sent to the paper and his wife actually read that poem and commented to a friend.

54:30

That person writes like Dennis, they have poor spelling and

54:32

grammar, just like he does. So

54:35

Sonia Meza-Leon: she had no suspicion, but Brittney Sherman: she recognized

54:38

Sonia Meza-Leon: it. Well, she caught him writing that letter and he told her that he was writing

54:44

a free as criminal justice class. And yeah, no, she, not only did she see it in the newspaper later, but

54:52

she saw it in his hands when he was writing it, he continued to write it.

54:54

And then he went ahead and sent it and he talk and he told her that he

54:59

was, it was, he was writing it for his criminal justice class about BTK.

55:04

So he told his wife there's a letter in his hand was written about BTK, which was.

55:09

No, that was his wife again. There's no you in a million years.

55:13

I don't care if I was his wife. I wouldn't have known either.

55:16

I wouldn't have thought about it. I mean, they've also got his phone call.

55:19

They've got this voice, they released this voice. They released that recording a bit later, but again, I don't know why they waited.

55:25

They needed some, the police really needed some strategy here.

55:27

I don't think that they, um, they had a really clear strategy

55:31

behind what they were trying to achieve other than solving it.

55:33

And I don't know if they just really, they thought about it and they really

55:36

plotted as well as they probably should have to actually make this happen.

55:40

So, so again, Nancy, Jo Fox, 25 years old murder, December 8th, 1977 in Wichita.

55:48

And she was strangled as well. Brittney Sherman: Victim number

55:52

Sonia Meza-Leon: eight. Yeah, we are number eight.

55:56

Brittney Sherman: So, uh, from 1978, December of 78, through 1985, or until

56:02

1985, Dennis was able to quell his factor X and resumed his activities

56:11

in the community and in the church. And his son was super into boy Scouts.

56:15

So he became a troop leader who was active in the community until he was

56:20

unable to keep that factor down and saw an opportunity being a troop leader with

56:27

his son on an outing of camping outing.

56:31

So victim number eight is Marine hedge, a widow and neighbor, uh,

56:37

from down the street of Dennis Rader.

56:41

So in this story on April 27th, he led his boy scout troop out on a camping

56:48

trip with a couple other chaperones and.

56:51

Said that he was going to go to bed early. He took this opportunity while the kids were still up doing camping

56:57

stuff and drove his car to a bowling alley of all places had a beer then

57:06

pretended to be drunk and call the taxi to take him to Marines home.

57:13

When he got to her home, he did what his become his emo cutting her

57:19

phone line, snuck in through the back and waited for her to get home.

57:24

This is extremely similar. Profiling and activity to Nancy Fox.

57:31

A man came home with her, which he wasn't expecting, but left Dennis came out of

57:37

the, uh, the, of hiding after the man left and choked 53 year old Marine to death.

57:44

Sonia Meza-Leon: Oh my God. Uh let's I'm going to back up a little bit and talk about Marine because

57:48

I had a couple of things that are really important to say about Marine.

57:52

Um, number one, she's older than her other victim, his other victims.

57:58

Um, but that's, he was aging too. So that actually doesn't surprise me that much.

58:03

She was 53 and most of his other victims were, uh, 40, uh, when it

58:08

comes to women and things like that. Well, I thought they

58:10

Brittney Sherman: were like in their twenties. Well, there were a variety of ages.

58:15

Sonia Meza-Leon: Actually you're right. No, no.

58:17

They were in their thirties in there. Yeah. You're out 38, 28,

58:21

Brittney Sherman: 25. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. So yeah, you're

58:25

Brittney Sherman: right. You're totally right about, he was 40 now, so he was getting

58:30

older, so yeah, you're right. I mean, he was like, he was actually almost like attacking

58:34

women similar in age to him.

58:37

And now he's 40, she's 53, but he he's aging.

58:42

Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the reasons too is because he may have, I mean, his ability to

58:47

control them, you know, as if they're younger, it may not be that easy anymore.

58:53

What's interesting. A couple of other things that are interesting about Maureen first off his

58:57

entire family, newer, she lived about six houses down, which is pretty ballsy.

59:01

If you asked me, Dennis knew this woman, um, you know,

59:05

she, I think she lived alone. He, I cannot believe that he chose his neighbor six doors down to

59:13

stock and then figure out this plan.

59:16

It was right. Yeah.

59:19

And his daughter recalls when this woman died and nobody tied it to BTK at all.

59:24

Even though it seemed fairly obvious, right?

59:26

At least maybe the daughter at the time didn't tie it.

59:28

But you know, it, if somebody dies six doors down from me, I'm

59:31

going to freaking remember it. It's going to be a thing.

59:34

And it's like, you're your friend, you know, their family friend or whatever.

59:38

Um, all right. So backing up to, to your point, Dennis re and that's why I wanted to say that

59:44

was because what's important about that is that's why he had to figure

59:47

out another way to get to her house. Besides just walking down the street or taking a direct route, he needed an alibi.

59:54

So it was a Cub scout thing. Then he had to come back into town, drop his car off at the bowling alley.

1:00:00

Like you said, it takes a cab pretends, like he's drunk.

1:00:02

Oh, let me get out right here. So he has the cab dropper drop him off somewhere close to her

1:00:08

house, but not in front of it. So nobody would have been the wiser.

1:00:10

Right. Also, I want to sort of lay the scene of it.

1:00:13

This is a 53 year old woman, a woman that he knows a nice woman.

1:00:17

Apparently he stands there in hides for quite a long time and

1:00:22

then waits for her to go to sleep. And then the middle of the night, he turns on the bathroom

1:00:27

light and the closet light. Well, I'm sure she's pooping, you know, bricks by now.

1:00:32

Cause she's like, oh my God, there's somebody in my house.

1:00:35

He comes in and he lays down next to her in bed.

1:00:39

So freaking gross. So yeah, same old bullshit that he always pulls.

1:00:46

Like you said, Brittany, you know, he strangled her, but

1:00:49

this is a woman that he knew. This is what is perplexing to me.

1:00:53

Not only did he know her and not only did he murder her, but he defiled her.

1:00:58

He took her dead.

1:01:01

To his church. He, he had it set up at the church.

1:01:05

He had like black plastic and all this shit. And so he was ready for her.

1:01:09

And so he took her there and he took this to this nice woman.

1:01:13

And go ahead. He Brittney Sherman: was president of the church council.

1:01:17

So he had full access to the church whenever he wanted.

1:01:20

So this wasn't like a weird thing for him to go into it.

1:01:23

I mean, it might be weird to go in the middle of the night regardless, but it's

1:01:26

not like he was this guy breaking in and that had w that shouldn't have access.

1:01:32

It was okay. That he was there when he was there.

1:01:35

Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, yeah, but he still brought a woman in and then back out.

1:01:42

Yeah, terrifying. So he brings poor Marine and he's got this planned ahead of time that he

1:01:48

is going to take photographs of her. And he ties her up in a variety of bondage, you know, I guess positions.

1:01:56

And he takes photographs of her.

1:01:58

And then when he's done, he takes her body and he dumps her in a remote location.

1:02:02

I don't think they find her for like nine days, this poor woman.

1:02:07

I mean, just so, so terrible. What's

1:02:09

Brittney Sherman: of so weird about this to me is he's almost treating her with

1:02:14

reverence and taking these pictures and then he just decides to dispose of her.

1:02:20

Like it it's like kind of polar opposites, the way that he treats her.

1:02:24

I don't really, I mean, I don't understand what's going on in his head, but I just,

1:02:30

to me, this was, it was especially weird.

1:02:34

I think this was the weirdest strangest one for me, because it was just a bunch

1:02:38

of activities that don't seem to have. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah.

1:02:41

Well, remember this was when he had come back from his hiatus too.

1:02:44

So of course he may have been a little off his game.

1:02:47

He maybe was teed up, like he says, you know, with factor X.

1:02:52

Oh. By the way, he, um, I'm pretty sure that he nicknamed his penis.

1:02:58

Um, Brittney Sherman: yeah.

1:03:01

That's okay. I don't know. Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah, no, it's important though.

1:03:06

Oh, my phone died. You have to look it up on your computer. I can look it up right now.

1:03:10

So, um, S S B T or something is what it is.

1:03:14

Brittney Sherman: Okay. Well, uh, while I look that up on my computer and I should probably block my

1:03:20

search history for this, um, you know, what's on you, we're going so strong.

1:03:25

I think this needs to be a two-parter. So, um, I think we should wrap this up right now.

1:03:30

We actually have gone over an hour, but, um, we will come back

1:03:35

and talk about his last killings.

1:03:39

And then of course, how he ultimately got himself caught, which was

1:03:44

another horrible act of hubris.

1:03:48

Anything else you want to add? Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, I think you guys can look forward to the second

1:03:53

episode where I'm going to have a lot of strong opinions about Dennis

1:03:58

Rader and my feelings for him as a human being more than they've

1:04:02

already had the victims through. Yes, I, it will.

1:04:05

It gets worse. It gets worse. I can't, I can't even believe that it gets worse, but it gets worse

1:04:12

because, and we'll, we'll talk about it in a minute, but we'll talk about

1:04:15

the ninth victim and then we'll also talk about again, how he got caught.

1:04:19

So stay tuned, scar lettuce. Brittney Sherman: All right.

1:04:21

Well, um, thanks for listening. Stick around for the end to hear from some of our other favorite shows that

1:04:28

we like to give shout outs to you. We always love supporting independent podcasters.

1:04:33

Uh, keep in mind, we are part of the pod all the time podcast

1:04:37

network, check them out on social media when you're checking us out.

1:04:42

All right. We are the ladies of Scarlet. Oh.

1:04:44

And, uh, Dennis Raiders nickname for his penis.

1:04:50

Keep killing it. Nana Checko, a couple other podcasters that support us

1:05:05

and we want to give them some

1:05:07

Sonia Meza-Leon: support. Hey fellow Scarlet, true crime listeners.

1:05:15

I'm CC the host of a new true crime podcast.

1:05:19

Sooner state, true crime as a born and bred Oki I'll cover cases

1:05:23

based in my wonderful home state of Oklahoma, the term sooner actually

1:05:27

refers to tutors in the land run. My state's very first true crime.

1:05:32

New episodes are released twice a month in apple podcasts and most

1:05:36

podcasts apps or visit our website, anchor.fm/crime state to listen now.

1:05:42

So come away with me to my crime state on the Sooners state, true crime podcast,

1:05:48

and please stay sooner, safe out there. Y'all

1:05:56

hi everyone. I'm Ariel Cooksey, host of malice.

1:06:00

When violent acts occur, we tend to think the predators are monsters.

1:06:05

Surely no human could do such things, but if we're honest, only

1:06:09

humans commit malicious crime.

1:06:12

And if you're like me, you want to know why to find out.

1:06:16

Join me at malice, wherever you listen to podcasts by,

1:06:24

Hey, y'all I'm Brandon Hall. I'm one of those two musics that he now will want a podcast about the good,

1:06:29

the bad and the dark side of nine 11.

1:06:32

Dispatching me and my co-hosts are 9 1 1 dispatchers with over 60 years of expanse.

1:06:37

Join us as we play 9 1, 1 calls and discuss them.

1:06:42

Oh, did I mention that we get dark 9 1 1.

1:06:47

What's your emergency? Brittney Sherman: How many people did you

1:06:53

Sonia Meza-Leon: shoot? yeah, my husband and they stopped my daughter and laid me.

1:07:20

you can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at music city nine 11, and we're

1:07:25

downloadable on every podcast platform.

1:07:30

Brittney Sherman: We want to give a shout out to the pod all the time

1:07:33

podcast network that we Scarlet TCP are proud members of other

1:07:39

Sonia Meza-Leon: members of the pod, all the time podcast network, our creative

1:07:43

intuitive, another digital citizen history of a haunting round and round the podcast.

1:07:50

Real AKA truth podcast, ruck up podcast, random unnamed podcast.

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Surburban folk three peas in a podcast, Ross sex podcast.

1:08:02

I think we're doing it podcasts.

1:08:04

Brittney Sherman: So if you like what you're hearing from Scarlet TCP, check

1:08:07

out these other shows that members of the pod all the time podcast network.