0:40

Brittney Sherman: It's uh, it's your ladies of Scarletto ever,

0:45

but we're not ladies of Scarletto. We got to start that over.Over.

0:51

Sonia Meza-Leon: We're so rusty. Brittney Sherman: Uh, all right.

0:55

Hey, Scott lottos. We are your ladies of Scarlet.

1:00

So it's been a minute. We, um, we took some time.

1:06

We, we took a little break. We had, I think, finished 35 episodes, but, um, we, we rested up

1:15

and now we're, we're coming back.

1:17

So welcome back to the routine, Sonia,

1:21

Sonia Meza-Leon: and I'm so excited about the routine.

1:25

I have to say. Um, well, two things first off.

1:28

You know, it's been crazy lately with the COVID-19 thing and working

1:33

from home and Brittany, you know, this too, we've been slammed.

1:36

And, um, when I look at my life and I kind of think, oh, I need to

1:40

really like find my happy place.

1:42

And then I, I go and I sit down and I watch a bunch of documentaries

1:46

about true crime and murder. And I'm like, this is my happy place.

1:50

Yeah, it's a little disturbing, but it truly is, you know, I've missed it.

1:55

I miss talking to you about this stuff. I mean, we talk all the time, but not about anything, you know, enjoyable

2:01

question, the whatever, like air quotes, but you know, just, I think things

2:05

we're passionate about plus, you know, I miss the banter, so I'm so excited.

2:09

We are back. We did take a bit of a break, um, you know, to catch our breaths

2:14

so much going on and sometimes.

2:16

You were happening in the world that I felt I just didn't really have.

2:20

Um, I D I didn't need a voice at that moment.

2:23

I thought that it that's, the situations are speaking for themselves.

2:26

So out of respect to those situations, I thought it was kind of a good

2:29

idea for us to take a moment and to look around and what was happening.

2:32

Brittney Sherman: Yeah. I agree. You know, we, you, you kind of touched on it.

2:38

We were slammed with our regular lives.

2:40

So, um, I felt like I needed an opportunity to step back for a bit.

2:45

I felt like. It wasn't the re the right time, the best time to be concentrating

2:51

on this, but, um, I'm, I'm excited.

2:55

Um, I'm really looking forward to getting back.

2:57

I think we're going to have a few changes that will, um, we, we hope you'd like

3:03

that we think will hopefully improve.

3:06

We are working on trying to build our brand a little bit and hopefully

3:12

make Scarlet TCP a little bit. Sonia Meza-Leon: That's right.

3:16

And, um, I'm excited about tonight because in this episode, you know, as we normally

3:21

do for each each record, you know, we record a couple of episodes at a time and

3:26

we usually start, you know, we developed this system where we can really get into

3:30

our group quickly by just having a, sort of a run and gun, top three conversation.

3:36

And, you know, it's just a moment for us to talk about things, um, you

3:39

know, quickly, uh, you know, top line.

3:43

That allows us, you know, just to get warmed up without having too much

3:46

detail and too much reference material.

3:48

And, um, this, I suggested this topic to you and the topic is, I said, you

3:54

know, let's talk about our top three unjust verdicts or what most people

4:00

would call wrongful convictions. Right.

4:03

I said that in passing because, you know, I had a lot of things on my mind and I

4:07

had been watching some things lately and I, I, one of my favorite documentaries

4:11

about some true crime, true crime situation is, is in particular about that.

4:17

And, um, I, then I started licking my list and it was really hard.

4:21

So my list is actually probably a little different than you're expecting,

4:24

but let's dive right into it. Let's do our top three wrongful conduct.

4:30

Brittney Sherman: Well, you can't leave me baited like that.

4:33

So this was your topic. You seem to have some unique thoughts.

4:37

So what are you getting. Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, let's go back a little bit because what do

4:42

we mean by wrongful convictions? That's like, I thought it best.

4:46

I mean, I wasn't even calling it the wrong thing running. I was saying unjust verdicts.

4:49

Right. But Bronco convictions, the more appropriate terminology

4:53

and used by most, I.

4:57

I had a hard time, you know, because there's so many, I was really saddened

5:02

by the number of, of, of wrongful convictions and the people who are

5:07

sitting in jail now because of it. So I, my choice for my top three is actually just one case.

5:16

And, um, Yeah, I know I had a really hard time trying to figure out who I would put

5:21

on my list because all of the wrongful convictions in my opinion are terrible.

5:25

Right. Terrible situations. Like, and I didn't want to disrespect any of those other choices, honestly.

5:33

It's not fair for me to say, oh, one's better than the other.

5:37

And in this one, I was like, ah, this is, this is a tough one, but go back

5:40

a little bit to wrongful convictions. Colorado sciences attention to a really, really interesting.

5:47

Piece of literature, literature that op-ed piece by John Grisham.

5:51

Right. And we know who John Grisham is, world famous attorney writer.

5:55

And he did an amazing job of summarizing the eight reasons for America's

6:02

shameful number of wrongful convictions. And he wrote it for the LA times.

6:06

It was written in 2018. I would suggest you guys reading it.

6:09

It's so fascinating because he writes like a screenwriter.

6:13

So he writes in a way. Really is compelling.

6:17

And so you're entertained by his peace, but he is so right on with it.

6:21

And you know, just a summary of wrongful convictions in the United States.

6:26

I think that right now, the average that's considered, you know, the,

6:31

for wrongful convictions versus other convictions, it's 2%, 10%.

6:36

I feel Brittney Sherman: like the phone. Yeah, it's a real lot.

6:39

I actually was going to say it's like 10%, which is way, way too many.

6:44

Yeah, no, there, there was a great quote, I think even by Ronald Reagan

6:49

who kind of prided himself on law and order that pretty much said.

6:55

Wrong Cole wrongful conviction is worse than 100 guilty men going free.

7:02

You Sonia Meza-Leon: Bennet, but it's rampant. And, uh, usually, you know, I have to say most of the time.

7:09

We have revolves around people who don't have the ability, the

7:11

financial means or the support in any other way, really, to be able

7:18

to, um, you know, defend themselves.

7:21

They probably got a, a typical, you know, someone assigned

7:23

to their cases and attorney. I mean, it's a lot easier to, to defend yourself when you have a lot of money

7:29

and you can afford good representation. So that's.

7:32

It is, it really does suck, but, um, the John Grisham piece is really interesting

7:37

and he contributes, uh, You know, the, the number of wrongful convictions to a

7:42

couple of things, you know, his, his top in no particular order, he says are bad

7:46

police work, prosecutorial misconduct, false confessions, faulty eyewitness

7:51

identification, jailhouse snitches, which I don't know why people would think that

7:55

would be really, you know, Uh, okay.

7:59

To when you're, when somebody's life is on the line to listen to someone

8:02

in jail, trying to get a reduced sentence, it's weird, a bad lawyering,

8:07

sleeping judges, meaning just letting things happen and then junk science.

8:12

So it's a really good article if you want to. Um, guys want to look at it because I just think John Grisham was really talented.

8:17

And when he writes, um, for the people who really understands

8:21

how to convey that message. So now that we talked about wrongful convictions and what

8:24

they are, and we talked about how. That are currently happening the percentage anyway, 2% at 10%, but I

8:30

can tell you in the past, I'm sure that that has been much more, especially

8:34

when it comes to people of color or, you know, people who are compromised and

8:38

vulnerable, you know, Yeah, definitely.

8:41

So sorry. That was really first.

8:43

That was a whole long intro. So I know I even got lost

8:49

Brittney Sherman: number three. Sonia Meza-Leon: Well, I want to talk about my number three, because

8:53

like I said, my number three is actually all three of my, my wrongful

8:57

convictions are from one case. Um, and that case is the west Memphis three.

9:02

And again, my choice was this, the specific case really.

9:08

Disturbing to me in so many ways and really well-documented and there are

9:13

every other wrongful conviction is probably as bad or worse, but this one

9:17

just really hit home for me for a variety of reasons you had in 1994 or 1993.

9:24

Three young boys, eight years old to, I think they were in second

9:28

grade murdered horrendously.

9:31

Um, obviously they were tortured. There was hard to tell about, you know, sexual abuse and things like that.

9:39

Um, if you don't know this case, I would look into it.

9:41

It's called the west Muslim. It's three weapons west, west, Memphis, Arkansas, um, and you know, sleepy

9:49

little town, little country town.

9:52

There were these three, second graders apparently were out,

9:56

you know, doing whatever second graders do, riding their bicycles.

9:59

And, um, someone snatched them, took them to the woods.

10:04

Um, hogtied them. It looked like they raped them.

10:08

They mutilated their bodies and then they left them in the Creek bed.

10:12

So what actually ended up happening was one of the boys died by blunt force

10:16

trauma and a variety of other things. And.

10:19

The other two boys actually drowned in the Creek bed, but they too were hogtied.

10:24

And, um, there's an interesting documentary called paradise lost, um,

10:30

about this case because, and it's, I, I will warn everyone too, when you watch.

10:36

If you watch it, there are graphic photos of the children

10:39

and the way that they were found. And it's really, really horrifying in this town.

10:45

The small little Bible belt town just didn't know what to do with it.

10:48

So cut to, um, three teenagers, um, that somehow or another got roped into,

10:56

um, the situation as suspects sounds to me like one of them who didn't know

11:02

the other two very well, but knew them.

11:05

You've got the, the three, the three, and this is, these are my three, my three, you

11:10

know, essentially are the three guys who were wrongfully convicted for the crimes.

11:15

And I think it's known now that they were wrongfully convicted.

11:18

I think it's, everybody would agree. Um, but I'll go through each of them.

11:21

And then I also want to talk a little bit about the, the little boys that were

11:24

murdered because it's totally terrible. Um, but it was really, really hard, so I'll stop there.

11:30

Um, but so that makes. I know crazy.

11:34

Right? So that makes my number three on my list.

11:37

Now that I gave you some backup by fro shorter, a backstory for the west Memphis

11:41

three, um, E now we'll talk about my number three of the wrongful convictions,

11:48

and that is particular to this case.

11:50

And his name is Jesse Ms. Kelly. He was 17 years old.

11:54

Um, uh, he came forward somehow.

12:00

With the police either. They picked him up. I'm not sure how they got him in involved, but they essentially questioned him.

12:07

And got him to confess to the crimes saying that he and two other

12:11

people who are my number two and my number one, um, worked together

12:16

and did this crime committed the crime against these three boys.

12:20

And, um, it was instead, it was part of like a satanic ritual.

12:25

So we'll leave it. A couple of things about Jessie, Ms.

12:28

Kelly. Um, as, you know, if you, if you go and you look into the case,

12:32

it's, what's interesting is he, he did have a bad reputation.

12:35

I think that he had, um, his IQ was compromised.

12:38

I think he had a very low IQ, which is one of the reasons they say that he was

12:42

easily, um, vulnerable to, you know, being prompted in questioning a confessions and.

12:49

What's crazy about it. The Jessie, Ms. Kelly Guy, the one who pretty much blew the whistle on these other two

12:54

kids who were became suspects and then were ultimately found guilty.

12:58

They didn't know each other very well. So here, you've got a guy saying, Hey, Yeah, me and these two guys,

13:05

we went in, we grabbed these two, three boys and we dragged them into

13:08

the woods and I held them down. While these other two guys did these things to this, these, these

13:13

boys, they didn't really know each other, like out of the blue, these

13:16

other two guys get roped into this. And, you know, you can kind of see an unfold in the documentary, but

13:21

I will hold, I reserve my number two are in my number one for later.

13:25

But my first is obviously that Jesse Ms.

13:27

Kelly kid. You know, who just needed to get the hell out of the police station.

13:31

He was like, he would have said anything at that point.

13:34

And he essentially just said, he said what he had heard about the case.

13:38

And he, many of the things that he noted were wrong.

13:40

So of course, a person at his age, you know, not having representation

13:45

in the room, um, of questionable and, you know, IQ who was easily persuaded.

13:50

You know, he, he didn't have much of a chance.

13:53

Brittney Sherman: No, I. I am not surprised that you picked that topic.

13:58

I know it's one that you are passionate about.

14:00

It's a frustrating topic for anyone that is familiar with it,

14:04

or has watched paradise lost. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, it's a three-part docu-series.

14:11

Over the course of like 20 years or something, right?

14:14

Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah. It's um, you can watch there is that.

14:17

And then there's also one that it looked like HBO just compiled together

14:20

to make one like 140 minute piece.

14:22

But, um, yeah, so.

14:26

Once they had all of these three pieces because they had recorded

14:29

their shot this over time. Um, then they, they did compile it at the time they were

14:33

releasing them individually. And there was a lot of people behind, um, the supporting

14:37

these guys and it didn't help. I mean, they spent 18 years in jail.

14:42

Uh, I mean for crimes that really, they weren't, there was no proof that they did.

14:47

They didn't. I mean, other than a couple of things, Led this town to sort of

14:52

call them out and to ostracize them. And we'll talk about those, those, those, those reasons later, because

14:57

this is where I can kind of really associate myself with these boys.

15:01

And it's terrifying to think you could just get railroaded like that.

15:05

Brittney Sherman: Okay. So my number three is not as deep as that I'll get there, but my number three.

15:18

Is the Hollywood 10. And are you familiar with the Hollywood 10 Sonya?

15:24

No, it is Sonia Meza-Leon: that, that sounds really, it sounds like a bar.

15:29

Brittney Sherman: It's probably not quite what you're thinking of, but

15:32

we're going to, we're going to do a little history lesson right now after

15:37

world war II ended in the late forties.

15:41

There was a Senator from my pride and joy, Wisconsin, Joseph McCarthy,

15:47

who was, uh, went on a very strong anticommunist tear through the country.

15:54

And he set his sights on Hollywood.

15:57

And there were hundreds, if not thousands of Hollywood

16:05

executives, writers, producers.

16:09

That were targeted as being either potential communist, communist

16:14

sympathizers, Stalinists, what have you.

16:19

And while communism was not illegal in America, as you can imagine.

16:26

Extremely frowned on and, uh, not something that anyone wanted

16:31

to be considered a part of. So in, uh, 1947, he started, uh, he, Joseph McCarthy, uh, started the

16:43

house un-American committee or who act and subpoenaed 79 people, uh,

16:50

claiming that they were communists.

16:53

Of those 79, ultimately 10 of them would come to stand trial in front of Congress.

17:00

Now, again, it wasn't illegal to be a communist in America, but they

17:07

were ultimately blacklisted and their trial was not for being a communist,

17:17

but for perjuring themselves.

17:20

So. 10 Hollywood creatives, uh, political ideation, unclear, you know, they D they

17:30

denied ultimately being true communists.

17:34

They, they denied being the Stalinists or supportive of the Soviet union, but

17:42

they were determined to have lied to Congress and perjured themselves, and

17:47

were sentenced to eight months in federal.

17:52

And that was the star of what many people can still hear of and are familiar

17:59

with of the Hollywood black list.

18:01

Uh, and so the Hollywood blacklist is.

18:06

An unofficial list at the time, it was a real list of, uh, at this

18:11

time it was a list of communists or communist sympathizers who worked

18:15

in Hollywood, who were no longer allowed to work in Hollywood.

18:19

A blacklisting is still a thing where you're doing.

18:23

Spread around town and you essentially are no longer allowed to unofficially

18:28

no longer allowed to work and you're on hireable, but this was the start

18:33

of the black list system through what many consider an unjust trial

18:41

in front of Congress of ultimately 10 influential creatives that may or may

18:47

not have been communists in a frequent.

18:52

Sonia Meza-Leon: Wow. So what w what happened?

18:56

Brittney Sherman: They were, they were found guilty of perjury.

18:59

The only crime they legally could have been found guilty of for saying

19:03

they weren't communists in front of Congress, even though under oath, even

19:07

though they were felt that they were communists and so lying to Congress,

19:11

and they spent eight months in prison.

19:15

Never were able to get their jobs or regain their jobs back.

19:19

Um, there was a, I haven't seen this, but there was for you really old

19:25

fashion, Hollywood nerds, kind of like myself who kind of wants to see this.

19:30

Uh, there was a 16 millimeter documentary shot about it in the fifties, but

19:36

then there's also a movie called one of the Hollywood 10 that focused

19:40

specifically on one screen writer. Who fought the hardest to try and proclaim his innocence despite being found guilty.

19:48

Sonia Meza-Leon: And when was Brittney Sherman: this? Uh, late forties, early fifties, uh, it was throughout what is known

19:55

as the who act period, the house on American activities committee

19:59

periods, blood by Joseph McCarthy. And it was kind of a tirade that he went on to rid the country of any

20:07

potential communist sympathizers. And he said his focus on Hollywood and the

20:12

Sonia Meza-Leon: Hollywood system. My feelings about that era in another episode.

20:17

But, um, there was a lot of shady stuff that happened around that time.

20:21

I mean, it was, um, it was the wild west in Hollywood.

20:27

Brittney Sherman: Okay. Onto your number two, even though you already kind of gave up.

20:31

Sonia Meza-Leon: I did. Sorry. So back to the west Memphis three case, uh, I sorta Terentino's

20:37

this whole process by the way. So I get it, uh, by the way.

20:41

Um, Brittney Sherman: yeah, no, for sure.

20:45

Sonia Meza-Leon: Yeah, for sure. Um, so my number two was Jason Baldman, who was another one of the mid west

20:52

Memphis three in Arkansas, 1994.

20:56

Convicted of, uh, murdering being a participant in murdering three second

21:02

graders and mutilating their bodies.

21:05

And he was sentenced to life.

21:08

He as well as the other boys, eventually after 18 years, um, they

21:16

did some kind of plea deal on using the Alford plea and they were released,

21:20

but ultimately ruin their life. I mean, these guys were in jail from being 17 years old, you

21:26

know, up until 18 years later.

21:28

So their lives had changed dramatically because of this.

21:31

What was interesting about Jason, Bob? Again, the other guy who ratted on them, the, the confession or the,

21:39

the, whatever we're going to call it, the guy who had some problems and

21:43

confessed under pressure, he didn't really, I mean, he didn't know them.

21:47

They weren't close friends. He didn't know Baldwin nor did he know the other suspect as well.

21:51

Um, ballroom was interesting. He, you know, he, while, while the other guys, the other two Westminster was

21:57

three guys, they did get in some troubles and vandalism, some shoplifting, um,

22:03

Baldwin actually got really good grades.

22:06

Jason Baldwin was not a dumb kid. He was a smart kid.

22:09

He was a really good artist.

22:11

Apparently he was talented. And, um, I guess he was going to go on to college, to study graphic design.

22:18

Um, w when I unveil my number one, which you guys already know if you

22:22

know the west Memphis three, we'll talk a little bit about those things

22:25

that they ha they were had in common. Um, but yeah.

22:29

Uh, my, again, my number two, Jason Baldwin, poor kid, 16 years old,

22:34

you know, 17 goes to jail for what he thinks is the rest of his life.

22:38

Um, for a crime, he really, really didn't commit that appears to be

22:41

well-proven that he didn't commit. So again, you know, a travesty of justice and a really sad situation.

22:50

Brittney Sherman: All right. My number two is Ruben hurricane Carter.

22:57

Oh, I first learned about and, uh, became, he became.

23:03

Probably pretty famous because of a Bob Dylan song called the hurricane.

23:10

You know that on ya? Sonia Meza-Leon: I hate Bob Dylan.

23:13

I know you do. That's how I, oh, God, like that was that's.

23:17

I don't, there's no comparison the way you could ask me that I'm like, I that's

23:21

the furthest from my, my, my world of music and I don't mind folk music.

23:26

I just, Bob Dylan's voice just makes me Brittney Sherman: that's crazy.

23:29

You know, I had a teacher one time compared Bob Dylan's.

23:32

As the most successful worst singer of all time, specifically referring to.

23:42

Sonia Meza-Leon: I'd probably agree with that. Brittney Sherman: Uh, but he's a hell of a songwriter and his, his song.

23:49

The hurricane is an eight minute plus song about Rubin Carter, who

23:55

was a middleweight boxer in the 1960s in Patterson, New Jersey.

24:01

And he happened to be at a neighboring bar.

24:06

To where a armed robbery and shooting that led to the death of

24:11

a couple of patrons took place. And he wa the witnesses claimed that they saw two, maybe three black men

24:23

that were a, the VSA lens and a similar time Carter and two other men were

24:30

leaving a neighboring bar and then were.

24:34

No, doubtedly trailed by police.

24:37

And at this time, Carter was not, he didn't have a clean slate.

24:42

He was dishonorably discharged from the military for, uh, disciplinary reasons.

24:50

He had charges against him for abuse, but he was cleaning up his act and he was.

25:00

Pace to become, to challenge for the world boxing middleweight

25:05

championship of the world. When he was pulled over after dropping a friend off and arrested, ultimately

25:13

charged and was convicted of murder.

25:19

Now, the witnesses who claim to see, uh, that the shooters were black.

25:25

Did not pin Carter to the scene.

25:28

They did not identify him as a suspect.

25:32

There was a female witness who called attention to a different suspect,

25:40

but that suspect said he was just robbing the place and he wasn't

25:44

responsible for any of the deaths.

25:47

And the, I will, I seriously have to say.

25:52

He ultimately, uh, was released from prison in the nineties, uh,

25:57

because the witnesses recanted and there was evidence to support that

26:00

he was never actually at that bar. And seriously though, like that Bob Dylan song can sum up this case.

26:08

So, well, In eight minutes and then there's a 1999 movie

26:13

starring Denzel Washington. That's about the same case that I've seen parts of.

26:17

And it's pretty good, but it's, it's really a case that

26:20

I've always found fascinating, particularly because of that song.

26:23

And I seriously would recommend anyone.

26:26

Who's got eight minutes to do the dishes or running errands or something.

26:31

Just throwing that song. You will get a really great history lesson.

26:35

I Sonia Meza-Leon: think I saw that movie. Brittney Sherman: Yeah.

26:38

Did you see it? I've seen parts of it.

26:42

Sonia Meza-Leon: I don't know what, I didn't see the whole thing I

26:46

Brittney Sherman: remember. I know I do too. Sonia Meza-Leon: All right.

26:50

Well, very.

26:52

So what I mean, what was the end result?

26:54

Did he get convicted? Did he die?

26:56

No. Brittney Sherman: No, he was, he was convicted, but, uh, he's

27:00

served like 20 years in prison. And then.

27:03

Was released after witnesses, ultimately recanted.

27:07

And there was actually really no evidence to support that he was,

27:12

Sonia Meza-Leon: oh, well, that's awesome. Wait to wait 20 freaking years.

27:15

Oh yeah. Brittney Sherman: It's terrible. Sonia Meza-Leon: How do you live with yourself even?

27:18

I mean, I would doubt myself like day one.

27:22

When it comes to someone's life in my hands.

27:25

I mean, that is on the list. You know what I mean? I think that S Isen things are deceiving, you know, when you're in

27:33

a moment and you think you're seeing something, or you thought you saw

27:36

something really clearly, but, you know, I mean, how well did you see it?

27:40

You know, it's just, it's, it's so tough.

27:44

All right. Well, I like that one. So you've got one left, right?

27:48

And your, your number, your, no, one's going to. Brittney Sherman: All right.

27:51

So you, uh, you take us away for your Sonia Meza-Leon: number one.

27:53

My number one is again, one of the west Memphis three, um, probably

27:59

the most well-known Damien Echols. He was 18 years old when the crime occurred.

28:04

So of course he was, uh, an adult, um, and tried accordingly.

28:09

And I think the other two boys were as well. I didn't think that they really cared at that point, um, because

28:14

the crime was so horrendous. Um, Damien Echols.

28:18

Uh, from a poor family, he didn't attend school very often.

28:23

He had a girlfriend, they ran off.

28:26

Um, I don't know, they ran and broke into some trailer and then

28:29

equals was charged with burglary. So he had some, you know, stuff.

28:33

I mean, he wasn't like a violent criminal. He was just a dumb kid.

28:36

And I think when you watch paradise lost, you'll see that it's, what's terrifying

28:42

to me a bit when I watched that. It really does appear to me in a lot of the video that they shot

28:48

at him that he doesn't have.

28:52

Um, he doesn't have any feelings about the situation.

28:57

Um, not that he doesn't have feelings about his own innocence,

29:01

but he, and a lot of people say, well, why would he have remorse?

29:05

He didn't do it. But. Respect for the situation is what I think was a bit missing.

29:10

And that really offended people.

29:13

Um, when you're talking about a crime that does this, this, let me just see these

29:16

little boys and what happened to them.

29:19

And, um, it, it was, you know, really, really horrendous and he, um, appeared

29:25

in court sometimes to be indifferent.

29:27

He. Uh, I mean, he just didn't take it seriously.

29:32

And I don't know if any of them took it seriously. I mean, obviously the guy who confessed, he didn't take it

29:37

seriously when he was confessing. He just wanted to get out of there.

29:40

But, um, Damien Echols, you know, he was the perfect Patsy for this crime,

29:46

um, in Arkansas at the time, because again, it was such a Bible belt and this

29:51

was a kid who, you know, later on, I think they figured out that he had some

29:55

mental, um, Deficiencies as well yet.

29:58

Um, you know, grandiose and persecute, persecutory, delusions, auditory, and

30:03

visual hallucinations, disordered thought processes, substantial lack of insight

30:07

and chronic incapacitating mood swings.

30:10

Um, you know, he had some stuff going on and, um, he it's just really perplexing,

30:17

you know, I think that he thought it was a joke and I think he later, he even tried.

30:22

Say that he thought it was a joke that didn't take it seriously,

30:25

but it's when you watch it, it's, it's kind of offensive.

30:28

If you're sitting in a room full of people watching this trial go down

30:32

against these, these suspects and they aren't taking it seriously, or he

30:36

doesn't appear to be taking it seriously.

30:39

And isn't, isn't at least thoughtful about the situation it's, um, you really

30:43

dislike him and I'll tell you why.

30:46

I have an, uh, a feeling, an association with Damian.

30:51

And I don't not necessarily about this, but one of the big reasons as

30:54

these three kids were sort of targeted was because they were the poor kids.

30:58

They were the dark kids.

31:01

And when I say dark, I mean, they were, you know, they weren't the

31:05

jocks or the popular kids, you know, they were the outliers, they

31:08

listened to heavy metal music. They wore black clothes, they had black fingernails.

31:13

I mean, they were, you know, The people associated them with being goth,

31:17

even though Jason Baldwin was a goth. I mean, he was just a heavy metal kid.

31:20

He had a little mullet, like no big damn deal.

31:22

Um, I mean, it was really weird, but Damien Echols

31:25

definitely had played that part. And then of course they found nonsense, um, you know, at Damien Echols

31:31

house, which they thought proved the point, they found like the satanic

31:34

Bible and some other literature.

31:37

And he had said at one point that he was in a WCA.

31:40

They hadn't read his binder and some of the poems he wrote and yeah, they

31:43

were a little dark, but I have to say, you know, what attracted me to this

31:47

case in particular was because I really felt like that they were ostracized

31:51

from their community because of those reasons they were considered punks,

31:55

um, satanic, you know, this was all about a set, a satanic ritual, um, So

32:02

unfair, these guys are kids, right. And they're being persecuted like that just for being, you know,

32:08

not part of the popular group. And I felt like that when I was young, you know, I definitely, my crowd was

32:13

a little more, uh, well, definitely more on the outlier side of things.

32:18

And, you know, we, Hey, we wore black w who cares.

32:21

Like, I don't know if that was like a big deal for us.

32:24

It wasn't like that defined us, but we, you know, We definitely didn't have that.

32:29

You know, I mean, when you're a teenager and you're not part of the popular group,

32:32

you're anything, if you're anything but the popular group, you're probably not

32:36

enjoying yourself that much, unless you're completely oblivious because you always,

32:40

those, the people who are the popular kids make sure, you know, you're not.

32:45

And that's where I feel for these guys, because it's so true.

32:49

They, they love it. They enjoy it. It's like, you know who, I mean, if they didn't bother you, it wouldn't

32:54

be one thing, but I know how it is.

32:56

They do bother you. You know, they make, you know, all the time that you are not part

33:00

of the group, you do not fit in. Um, and it it's crappy.

33:04

So, you know, this happened in 19.

33:07

Three, I think the, the murders and they were convicted in 1994, that

33:11

would, that's not that many years after I graduated from high school.

33:14

So it was probably around that same time, but it was, you know, I, I thought

33:18

that really was a bummer for those guys. And so that's why there was a lot of support behind these guys, um, in,

33:25

especially in the heavy metal community. Like I think Metallica allowed them to use like their music

33:29

for free and the paradigm. Documentary.

33:32

I mean, there was a big following, like I had heard about west

33:35

Memphis three for a long time. I mean, you know, because you've got, you know, once the misfits get

33:40

together and there's enough of them, then the misfits are the majority

33:44

and then shit kind of goes down. And that's what happened was that everybody who had felt like.

33:48

An ever, you know, kind of banded together and said, no, we can't let this

33:51

happen to these guys because this is a circumstance that we could have been

33:54

in, in the right, at the right time. But, um, that is my number.

33:58

Number one was Damien Echols and man, some terrible, these guys look in,

34:02

these guys were in jail for eight. Years, 18 years from being teenagers.

34:06

So they grew up in jail, which is horrifying and terrible things happened

34:09

to them while they were in jail. I mean, Damien Nichols, he was raped, you know, they were, it

34:15

was there, there, you know, what happens to child killers in jail?

34:19

You know, child molesters in jail, not good things, you know, I mean, they're.

34:24

They're in particular, they're very much targeted, you know, so, and these guys

34:29

were teenagers, they were young, so I really doubt they could defend themselves.

34:33

But, um, again, take a look at paradise loss.

34:35

It's a really interesting, um, documentary for sure.

34:38

And you can look at it in the pieces or you can look at it as a whole.

34:41

There's some crazy characters in that show as well.

34:43

It's, uh, you know, I kept thinking, Melissa, some of us was in Tennessee

34:47

and Memphis is in Tennessee, but this is actually Arkansas,

34:50

which is a different flavor. Uh, folk.

34:53

So take a look, but that's my top three, Brittany, what's your number one.

34:57

Okay. Brittney Sherman: So my number one, you could call number one, you

35:02

could call number one through five.

35:04

You could even call number one through 10 because my number

35:08

one is the central park five.

35:12

Sonia Meza-Leon: That's a good one. That is a good

35:14

Brittney Sherman: one. The central park five are five teenage boys who were a accused

35:25

of accused and convicted. I should say of assault, robbery, riot.

35:33

Attempted murder, rape and sexual abuse.

35:38

And they ranged in the ages of 14 to 16.

35:43

And this is a, an event that took place on April 19th, 1989 in central park,

35:51

New York, between 9:00 PM to 10:00 PM on a woman named Tricia Mellie.

35:59

And. Uh, these young boys who, um, were just kinda hanging out were really,

36:10

I mean, they're truly innocent kids.

36:14

Truly, um, so much so that one of the boys, the youngest

36:21

one still hadn't hit puberty.

36:24

So his, uh, the crime of rape was clearly not possible for him.

36:31

These boys were taken in for questioning that night.

36:36

They were held without their parents.

36:39

They were promised things like.

36:44

Food drinks, the ability to go home in order in exchange for confession.

36:52

So these immature young kids of horse.

36:57

Which we all know, having seen plenty of documentaries of true

37:02

crime series, listening to enough podcasts like this know that complying

37:07

with, without a parent or legal representative is the worst possible

37:13

situation for someone to be put in. And of course they, uh, their confessions were held up, taken

37:21

to prison and are taken to court and they were sentenced to prison.

37:25

So. The reason I say five, or there are up to 10 because that same

37:32

night in central park, there were other events that took place.

37:36

And there were actually five other teenagers that were indicted for.

37:43

Uh, assault and attacks on other persons, but it's these five boys in

37:52

particular that are referred to as the central park five that are, uh,

37:57

they were the ones that were held and convicted of rape and sexual assault.

38:07

And, um, four were ultimately convicted.

38:11

One was, uh, convicted on a lesser charge, but it was 16.

38:16

So he was tried as an adult.

38:19

All five of them were charged or convicted and sentenced to up to

38:24

15 years in prison and ultimately served between seven and eight years.

38:31

They were natural. Uh, found not guilty.

38:37

And, um, their convictions were vacated in 2002.

38:43

It was an extremely, uh, uproarious event.

38:49

I was too young to remember the event, but I can look back and read

38:55

articles and watch footage of it. And there was, there was a, um, Uh, a cry out for justice against them because

39:08

there was so much evidence that was incorrectly mounted against them, that

39:13

they never had a shot at a fair trial.

39:16

And it's, uh, there's a Netflix series and I, I want to call it

39:22

a great Netflix series by Ava DuVernay called when they see us.

39:28

But I hold on calling. Great.

39:31

Not because it isn't, but because I had such a hard time watching it, I

39:35

literally watched the first episode and the treatment of these innocent

39:41

young, naive boys disturbed me so much.

39:46

I could not bring myself to watch the rest of it.

39:50

And I feel for the victim in this case too, because she was so badly

39:55

battered and bruised and raped.

39:58

She could not identify who attacked her.

40:02

So her assailant ultimately was never found.

40:06

She's obviously the victim in this case, in addition to these kids,

40:11

but she never got justice and these kids paid a price for something that

40:16

they never had anything to do with.

40:18

And naive Lee admitted to committing.

40:21

Just because they were looking for an out in the middle of

40:25

the night, trying to get home. Sonia Meza-Leon: That is awful.

40:29

I have been meaning to watch that show or that series.

40:32

And, um, I know the subject matter is really tense and sensitive.

40:36

So I've been putting it off. I have to be honest with you.

40:39

I'm sure. It's awesome. I love her. I love the director, um,

40:43

Brittney Sherman: because it is so tense. I, like I said, it made me so angry.

40:48

I couldn't keep watching it. I needed to get back to it.

40:50

I need to do it justice to finish watching it, but it really pulled at me.

40:55

And really, it really got to me and upset me about the treatment

41:00

that, that we see on screen. That is true to

41:03

Sonia Meza-Leon: life. What, um, so what happened?

41:05

What did, what happened with this guys? Did they like, let them go.

41:08

I mean, what was the. Brittney Sherman: So they, they all served their time, uh,

41:13

between six and eight years. And then in 2002, they, uh, petitioned and succeeded in having

41:20

their, their charges vacated.

41:24

Sonia Meza-Leon: Great. Yes. That's such

41:27

Brittney Sherman: bullshit. Oh, it, it, yeah, it is.

41:29

It's just, it's, it's disgusting.

41:32

It's a horrible tragedy and miscarriage of the justice system.

41:39

Sonia Meza-Leon: What's that, I'm sorry for suggesting this topic, by the way,

41:44

Brittney Sherman: really started off on a downer. I know.

41:46

Sonia Meza-Leon: I'm so sorry. I was thinking about it and was looking at my list and then I'm like,

41:51

why don't I just Google, you know, wrongful convictions, the multitude.

41:56

I was, I was, I was overwhelmed and I couldn't, I, it would take me

42:00

weeks to read through all of them. Um, the bigger ones, you know, I mean, I think that the exonerations are

42:06

going up, but you know, th the need for exoneration shouldn't happen either.

42:11

Um, but man, you know, you're, you're going to choose the top three next.

42:14

It's all you Brittney Sherman: I'll try and be a little more lighthearted.

42:19

I w I will say, you know, to your point about exonerating, Going off and having

42:25

a sentences vacated, you know, a lot of credit goes to the innocence project or

42:29

projects who dedicates themselves to.

42:33

Going out there taking on cases, pro bono for wrongly convicted felons and

42:39

doing everything they can to return to trial, to overturn the cases based on

42:46

evidence that was either missed or skipped over or just ignored at the time that.

42:56

The convictions happened. And so they really deserve

42:58

a Sonia Meza-Leon: lot of credit. Yeah, no, they think God, there are people out there who are supporting those

43:03

causes and you know, it's again, you know, it's, there's so many of them, so

43:07

it's so hard to get their voices heard, but I'm thankful that there's something

43:10

in place to, to help these folks. Um, but the goal would be to reduce this number percentage greatly.

43:17

You know, I don't think that 10% is acceptable.

43:20

Brittney Sherman: It's a terrible amount is not acceptable.

43:24

Sonia Meza-Leon: Yep. All right. Scarlet as well.

43:27

There's our, uh, our, our top three for this week.

43:31

So our top three wrongful convictions.

43:34

Brittney Sherman: Um, after that, I need to, I need to cool down a little bit.

43:37

I know Sonia Meza-Leon: I'm all right.

43:40

I know. All right. Thanks, Carlitos.

43:44

Brittney Sherman: Deep killing it. Nana check out a couple other podcasters that support us, and

44:00

we want to give them some support.

44:07

Sonia Meza-Leon: Hey, fellow Scarlet, true crime listeners.

44:10

I'm CC the host of a new true crime podcast, sooner state, true crime as a

44:16

born and bred Oki I'll cover cases based in my wonderful home state of Oklahoma.

44:21

The term sooner actually refers to tutors in the land run.

44:24

My state's very first true crime. New episodes are released twice a month in apple podcasts and most

44:30

podcasts ups or visit our website, anchor.fm/crime state to listen now.

44:36

So come away with me to my crime state on the sooner state true crime podcast.

44:43

And please stay sooner safe out there. Y'all.

44:51

Hi everyone. I'm Ariel Cooksey, host of malice.

44:55

When violent acts occur, we tend to think the predators are monsters.

45:00

Surely no human could do such things, but if we're honest, only

45:04

humans commit malicious crime.

45:07

And if you're like me, you want to know why to find out.

45:11

Join me at malice grabber. You listen to podcasts by.

45:18

Hey, y'all I'm Brandon Hall. I'm one of the hosts of music city, nine 11, a podcast about the good,

45:24

the bad, and the dark side of nine 11.

45:27

Dispatching me and my co-hosts are 9 1 1 dispatchers.

45:30

With over 60 years of experience, join us as we play 9 1 1 calls and discuss this.

45:36

Oh, did I mention that we get dark nine 11?

45:41

What's your emergency? you can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at music city nine 11, and we're

46:20

downloadable on every podcast platform. Brittney Sherman: We want to give a shout out to the pod all

46:27

the time podcast network that we Scarlet TCP are proud members of

46:34

Sonia Meza-Leon: other members of the pod, all the time podcast network, our creative

46:38

intuitive, another digital citizen history of a haunting round and round the podcast.

46:45

Real AKA truth podcast, ruck up podcast, random unnamed podcast.

46:51

Surburban. Three peas in a podcast, Ross sex podcast.

46:57

I think we're doing it podcast.

46:59

Brittney Sherman: So if you like what you're hearing from Scarlet TCP, check

47:02

out these other shows that members of the pod all the time podcast network.