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buy. Can

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we change math's reputation for being

0:40

boring? Math doesn't have

0:42

to be this challenging, cold, hard

0:45

calculating subject that you remembered in

0:47

school. It can be

0:49

something that's fun and inspiring. It's

0:52

Thursday, March 14th, and let

0:54

me check my calendar. Oh,

0:56

yep, today is Science

0:59

Friday. I'm

1:01

Sci-fi producer Kathleen Davis. I

1:03

have never liked math. I know that's

1:06

a controversial statement, but it's always been

1:08

really hard for me. Memorizing

1:10

equations and multiplication tables,

1:13

it left me with a bad taste for the

1:16

subject. One person trying

1:18

to break math's dry reputation is

1:20

not your traditional math teacher, Kine

1:23

Santos, who's a drag queen and

1:25

a mathematician. Ira

1:27

speaks to Kine about her new

1:29

book, Math in Drag. Kine is

1:31

based in Kitchener, Ontario. Welcome back to

1:33

Science Friday. Hi, Ira. Thanks

1:35

so much for having me. You're quite

1:37

welcome. All right, you know, at first

1:39

glance, I don't see a lot of similarities

1:42

between math and drag, but your book

1:44

is an argument that they are similar.

1:47

Tell us about that. Yeah,

1:49

you know, people think that these

1:51

are two such separate worlds, right? We

1:53

have drag, which is art, and art

1:55

has no rules, whereas people think that

1:57

math is just full of arbitrary. rules.

2:00

But what the book tries to

2:02

argue is really that math is

2:05

about thinking creatively and, and working

2:07

collaboratively and thinking innovatively and questioning

2:10

our pre held stereotypes and

2:12

beliefs. Yeah. So

2:14

tell me about your personal background with

2:16

math. Did you always love it? I

2:19

remember always being pretty good at it. It was always

2:21

my best subject ever since I was a little boy.

2:23

Really? You know, my dad was Yeah, my dad was

2:25

an engineer, he would just do my math homework with

2:28

me. And I just always wanted to impress him. I

2:31

started liking math and thinking that

2:33

it was beautiful. When I was in

2:35

high school, my math teachers encouraged me

2:37

to start writing math contests, which were

2:39

like these extracurricular math tests didn't

2:42

count for your grades. They were just like

2:44

an extra challenge. I know everyone was

2:46

listening and thinking, Where can I sign

2:48

up? But you know, I loved it.

2:50

And I saw through it a

2:52

different side of math, where it wasn't just about using

2:55

an algorithm that your teacher taught you. It

2:57

was about problem solving and thinking on the

2:59

spot thinking outside the box. Yeah, my I

3:01

had a great math teacher who used to

3:03

describe geometry

3:05

as elegant. It's

3:07

a the proof was elegant. So I

3:10

really I really enjoyed that. And for a

3:13

long time, math has been considered a

3:15

boys club. Was it like that to be a

3:17

math lover who didn't sit that little

3:20

box? Yeah, and I mean,

3:22

I guess, you know, growing up as a boy,

3:24

I sort of had the privilege of feeling like

3:26

math was sort of open to me in that

3:28

respect. I know that math is, as you say,

3:31

a bit of a boys club, I

3:33

in particular thought it was a bit of

3:35

a straight boys club, I felt that if

3:37

I came out as gay, that people wouldn't

3:40

really take me very seriously. You know, I

3:42

always thought that the stereotype behind gay people

3:44

were that they were just sort of flamboyant,

3:46

very vapid. I didn't really think

3:49

that they could become mathematicians or scientists.

3:51

So, you know, the book is really

3:53

aimed at at people who,

3:55

you know, need to unravel the stereotype,

3:57

I want to show people that any.

4:00

Anybody can be a math person no matter who you

4:02

are or what you look like. That's

4:04

really good. I want to get into some

4:06

examples then of how math can be flashy

4:09

and fun. Tell me about the

4:11

different levels of infinity. I

4:13

know when I was back in

4:15

school studying George Cantor's Olaf sets, right?

4:17

There were different infinities, right? Is that

4:20

what you're talking about? Yeah, the book

4:22

talks about Georg Cantor and these different

4:24

levels of infinity. I mean, first of

4:26

all, we have there are infinite numbers.

4:28

You know, you can start from one,

4:30

two, three, four, five, and then they

4:33

never stop. But that's what we call

4:35

countable infinity because you can put them

4:37

on a list. Right. There's an uncountable

4:39

infinity, which is all the numbers just

4:41

between one and two. All the decimal

4:43

numbers like point one, point one,

4:46

five, point zero, zero one. It

4:48

turns out there's an even greater infinity

4:50

of numbers just between one and two.

4:53

And the book explains why that is. That

4:55

is a mind blower to think that one

4:57

infinity can be bigger than the other. Yeah.

5:01

Yeah, not only that, but there are

5:03

greater infinities even than that. You can

5:05

keep taking an infinite set and then

5:08

using that to build an even larger

5:10

infinite set. Like there are

5:12

infinite infinities. I

5:15

love it. Let's talk about OK, let's

5:17

speaking of infinity, let's talk about one

5:19

number with infinite digits, which we all

5:21

love. Pi. Pi

5:23

day is coming up very soon, right?

5:26

This is a concept that most people

5:28

are probably familiar with. And you use

5:30

the concept of pi to make drag

5:32

outfits for yourself. Wow. Yeah.

5:34

Yeah. Well, pi is the relationship between a

5:37

circle of circumference and a circle of diameter.

5:39

So, you know, if you're making a skirt

5:41

that you want to fit nicely around your

5:43

waist, you can take a measuring tape, measure

5:45

around your waist. That's the circumference. But when

5:47

you go to the fabric to cut it

5:49

out, you're cutting out a radius to

5:52

make the circle. So you have to use

5:54

pi in that equation. Wow. And so I

5:57

was reading the parts where you were talking about cutting out

5:59

different kinds of circles. circles that fit different

6:01

different body forms. Yeah, yeah. Well,

6:03

pi is the same, whether

6:05

it's a large circle or a small

6:07

circle, the conference is always pi times

6:09

the diameter of any circle. Wow. And

6:12

you devote a chapter in your book

6:14

to what you call celebrity

6:16

numbers, the rebels and the punks over

6:18

the number world. Give me an example

6:21

of a celebrity number. That's

6:23

right. Pi is one of them. The

6:25

others are zero and I, the imaginary

6:27

number, and I call them celebrity numbers

6:29

and I call them punks because these

6:31

are numbers that challenge our ideas of

6:33

what a number is. You know, we

6:35

used to think that numbers were just

6:37

things you could count, like you had

6:39

one sheep, two sheep. The

6:42

idea that nothingness could be a number was

6:44

something that was a bit

6:46

novel to the Romans. And so that

6:48

that's why there is no Roman numeral

6:50

for zero. There was no year zero.

6:52

Zero had to be invented, right? Yeah,

6:54

it had to be invented. And so,

6:56

you know, the fact that there are

6:58

numbers that that we don't know exist,

7:01

but that do fit into the framework. Once

7:03

we do accept the idea of zero as

7:05

a number, it also opens the door to

7:07

negative numbers, which is a hard

7:09

thing to wrap your head around. But once

7:12

you do, it's like, yeah, it works perfectly

7:14

for describing debt, for describing below

7:16

zero temperatures. And it's

7:18

a great analogy to drag because just as

7:20

there are new sorts of numbers

7:23

that we may not understand, there are

7:25

all sorts of people that at first, when

7:27

we meet them, we don't always understand who

7:29

they are or why they're like that. But

7:32

you want to have an open mind when it comes to math

7:34

and when it comes to life. Yeah,

7:36

especially when you get into imaginary numbers,

7:38

which I've always had a lot of

7:41

trouble with. Yeah,

7:44

students have a hard time wrapping their heads

7:46

around that. You know, I did as well

7:48

the idea that you can take the square

7:50

root of a negative, you

7:52

know, it's hard to imagine,

7:54

no pun intended, because, you know, a negative

7:57

times a negative is a positive, zero times

7:59

zero is zero and a positive times a

8:01

positive is positive. So how do you multiply

8:03

a number by itself and get a negative

8:05

number? Well, you just invent it

8:08

and it turns out that it works

8:10

quite well in math. We can use

8:12

it in computer science and electrical engineering

8:14

and physics. And it has all of

8:16

these applications and it actually

8:18

works quite well, just like how negative

8:20

numbers fit into our framework quite well.

8:23

You can say, you know, numbers are this

8:25

and this is our framework and that doesn't

8:27

work, or you can expand your framework

8:29

and make it all the more fabulous

8:32

and wonderful. We're taught that

8:34

math has very rigid rules, but you

8:36

say it doesn't have to be that way. No,

8:39

no. You know, this is, I think the

8:41

problem of how math is taught. We teach

8:43

math as if we were teaching

8:45

kids to paint by having them paint a fence.

8:48

It's just all about like following

8:50

these rote rules where really math is

8:53

about thinking creatively. And you

8:55

know, the idea of accepting new source of

8:57

numbers is one example. Um, but

8:59

a lot of, you know, modern mathematicians

9:01

are thinking creatively and working on

9:04

original ideas and they're questioning axioms

9:06

and tinkering with, well, if we

9:08

tweak this, then what happens here

9:10

and finding these connections? Right.

9:13

Cause you always have these things where

9:15

if you're doing multiplication, a long string of

9:17

numbers or addition, you do

9:19

this stuff inside the parentheses first, right?

9:22

They, that's stuff on the outside. So

9:24

you have those rules, but they're

9:26

all, they're not always agreed upon. No.

9:29

And listen, drag has rules too. You know,

9:31

if you, if you watch RuPaul's drag race

9:33

or if you go to a drag pageant,

9:35

there are rules that drag queens have to

9:37

abide by as well. So, you know, there,

9:39

there are these constraints that we put

9:41

on to sort of help

9:44

us understand, you know, what drag is about

9:46

and how drag is different from other art

9:48

forms constraints oftentimes can help you

9:50

be even more creative. And speaking of

9:52

that, this concept of illegal numbers makes

9:55

me think of drag and the

9:57

way it's been made into a bad guy in

9:59

the, I. of some people. Oh, yeah.

10:01

I mean, I go on and on talking

10:03

about, you know, my experience with the trolls

10:06

online, people coming up to drag queens. You

10:08

know, I talk about in the book how

10:11

math has been controversial and how numbers

10:13

have been illegal. You know, when zero was

10:15

first invented, people had a hard time grappling

10:17

with that, that zero and the

10:20

rest of the Hindu Arabic numerals were also

10:22

illegal at one point. Yeah.

10:24

So how do you keep

10:27

your head up against the people who

10:29

say drag queens should not be teaching

10:31

kids about math or even existing at

10:34

all? You know, I just

10:36

have to keep my head up and I just, you

10:38

know, have to lead with positivity and light. I know

10:40

that what I do is not

10:42

for everyone and I'm not going to change everybody's

10:44

mind. But I just

10:46

want to lead with love and positivity and

10:48

and be a good role model and show

10:51

people that we're

10:53

more than just a stereotype. Really

10:55

my goal is to change

10:57

people's opinions about math and also

10:59

change people's opinions about drag. Mm

11:02

hmm. Mm hmm. Speaking of which, let's

11:04

talk about your very popular TikTok

11:06

page. Yeah, where you teach math concepts

11:09

in a really fun and visually engaging

11:11

way. I want to ask

11:13

you about the Mobius strips, which is something

11:15

that you talk about on your channel a

11:18

lot. Tell us what a Mobius strip is. Yeah.

11:22

The Mobius strips are great because they're a

11:24

great visual example. You can make one with

11:26

a piece of paper. You just cut out

11:29

a long rectangle. You flip it 180 degrees

11:31

and then tape it back together. And

11:33

then you get this thing that you can play with that

11:35

is one sided. If you trace

11:37

your finger all the way around, you end

11:40

up back where you started having touched both

11:42

sides because it's it's all one side.

11:44

And I think that people like it because it's this

11:46

visual thing that they can really connect to. You

11:49

know, TikTok has just been so magical because it's

11:52

allowed me to reach millions and millions

11:54

of people, people who wouldn't have otherwise

11:57

looked up a math video, people who

11:59

have graduated. graduated from school and probably

12:01

thought they would never want to take a

12:03

math class again are suddenly now interested in

12:05

math and wanting to talk about it in

12:07

the comment section, talk about it at the

12:10

dinner table. Hmm. And what's your strategy for

12:12

teaching a really complicated math concept

12:14

to people who maybe have no

12:17

background in the subject? How do

12:19

you break things down in

12:21

a way that's so to speak,

12:23

digestible for people? I think

12:25

the key is really, I don't

12:28

try to get them to memorize it like we

12:30

do in school. What I

12:33

explain is, you know, why these concepts

12:35

are the way they are. I try

12:37

to really explain the logic behind things

12:39

and also how they're used in the

12:41

real world. I think that's what's maybe

12:43

missing from our education system. Everybody's

12:48

got a story about a piece of music. I thought

12:50

this is the greatest thing I've ever heard. It's

12:52

about pure experience, pure

12:55

connection, pure joy. This

12:57

song allowed me to

13:00

survive. I'm Terrence McKnight

13:02

with a new season of the Open Ears

13:04

Project. Every Monday in under 20

13:06

minutes, you'll hear a different guest share

13:08

their story. So you can start your

13:10

week on the right note. Listen wherever

13:12

you get podcasts. Not

13:16

only are you a mathematician and

13:18

a drag queen, but you're also

13:20

a musician. Let's talk about music

13:22

theory. Because right now we know

13:24

that musicians and mathematicians really have

13:26

an intersection there. Yeah,

13:28

okay. Well, I wouldn't call myself a musician.

13:30

I suppose I'm a music lover. I'll

13:33

take that. I'll take that close enough.

13:36

Yeah, well, I mean, over the holidays,

13:38

I was just learning about math and

13:40

music. And what's amazing is

13:42

that music, something else that we think

13:44

is so artistic, actually

13:47

has a lot of math

13:49

behind it, behind the way a piano was tuned,

13:51

even a sound wave.

13:54

Whoever is listening to this right now, you

13:56

know, so much math has to happen for the

13:58

sound waves to be fed to the microphone

14:00

and then through the speakers and then fed

14:03

through the wires as encoded

14:05

in zeros and ones. It's really brilliant

14:07

to think about it. So

14:10

then music could be possibly a good

14:12

way in, like a door for

14:14

people. Yeah, I mean, I think what's

14:16

great about music is that everybody

14:19

can connect to it. You know, people

14:21

realize that you don't have to be

14:23

a music expert in order to listen

14:25

to music on the radio and really

14:27

appreciate it. And I

14:30

want to say that you don't have to be

14:32

a mathematician to appreciate math and to enjoy the

14:34

masterpieces of math. And who would

14:36

you say, because people always ask authors,

14:39

who did you write this book for? Do you

14:42

have a specific audience in mind here? I

14:44

wrote this book for college

14:46

students, high school students, adults,

14:49

people who maybe

14:52

don't have a great relationship with math.

14:54

I want to help repair that relationship and show

14:57

them that math doesn't

14:59

have to be this challenging, cold,

15:01

hard, calculating subject that you remembered

15:03

in school. It can be something

15:06

that's fun and inspiring

15:08

and is actually present in

15:10

everywhere we look around the world around us. I

15:14

just want to show people that

15:16

you can just love this universe and

15:18

math is the language of our universe.

15:21

Yeah, that's another way of saying, and

15:23

you say this in your book, that

15:25

math is magical. Yeah, it

15:28

is magical. You

15:30

rarely hear people who are not mathematicians

15:32

who are not involved with math talking

15:34

about it being magical. Make an argument

15:37

for me about math being magical. I

15:39

mean, I'll talk about pie since we talked about that.

15:42

Pie is everywhere. You can use it to make a dress.

15:46

But it's also got infinitely many

15:48

digits. And yet, we only need

15:50

a few of them to make a dress. And

15:52

we only need even 15 of

15:55

them to land rockets on the moon. The

15:58

first 40 digits of pie, you can use it to make a dress. can

16:00

estimate the circumference of the entire observable

16:03

universe within atoms with

16:05

a margin of error and yet it

16:08

has infinitely many digits and it may

16:10

or may not have your phone number,

16:13

your credit card number encoded within it

16:15

could be the entire works of Shakespeare

16:17

and the Bible. I think

16:20

infinity is just this magical

16:22

concept and yet it

16:24

exists in our own heads. Yeah

16:27

and and speaking of Pa you talk in

16:29

the book about how many different cultures discovered

16:32

it independently. How you you

16:34

know that it was something that

16:36

had to be discovered. Yeah I think the

16:39

the other magical thing about it is if

16:42

it is in our heads then why did

16:44

so many people discover it independently around

16:46

the world you know you had the

16:48

ancient Egyptians, the ancient Greeks, ancient

16:51

China, India, Mesoamerica all

16:54

coming up with number systems all coming up

16:56

with their own expressions of pi

16:59

and algebra and sort of landing on

17:01

on these similar math concepts you know

17:03

there's two schools of thought you can

17:05

say that math is sort of invented

17:07

by us and exists in our heads or

17:09

it's out there in the real world. Yeah.

17:13

If it's invented in our heads well

17:15

it works really well and it

17:18

is so good at describing the universe

17:20

and if it's out there then where

17:22

is it? Is it in the sky? Is it

17:24

in the out where is it

17:26

out there if it's a physical thing I don't

17:29

know. Yeah it's kind

17:31

of spooky I mean in a good

17:33

way. Yeah so what do

17:35

you say to people who

17:37

aren't good at math but would like to

17:39

be good at math would like

17:41

to discover what you have discovered? I

17:44

would say that learning never stops

17:46

at any age even when you

17:48

graduate school and you get your diploma for

17:51

me I'm a lifelong learner and I've always

17:53

just wanted to learn more about this

17:55

universe and the people we shared with and

17:58

you should never put any limiting belief on yourself

18:00

and say, you know, I'll never learn math. It's

18:03

like saying I'll never learn another language or I'll

18:05

never read another book. Why say that to yourself?

18:07

I think we should all embrace an

18:10

enthusiasm for learning because what else are we here

18:12

on this planet for? And it

18:14

also takes a good teacher like yourself

18:17

to be able to explain it to people who

18:19

really want to know about it. I appreciate that.

18:21

Thank you. And I, and I, you know, want

18:23

to give a shout out to all the other

18:25

teachers out there in the world, you know, working

18:27

in the classrooms because they're molding the minds of

18:29

this next generation of humans. And there

18:31

you have it, Kyne. Thank you for, for what you

18:33

do and for taking time to be with us. Thanks

18:36

for having me. You're welcome. Kyne

18:38

Santos, author of Math in Drag,

18:41

a really cool new book out

18:43

this week. Kyne is based in

18:45

Kitchener, Ontario. And we have an

18:47

excerpt of the book on our

18:50

website. Yes, sciencefriday.com/math in drag. Check

18:52

it out. That's all

18:54

the time that we have for now. A

18:56

lot of folks helped make the show happen,

18:58

including Annie Nero, Jason

19:01

Rosenberg, Rasha Aridi, Shoshana

19:04

Bugsbaum, and many more.

19:06

Tomorrow, we'll check in on the biggest

19:08

science stories of the week. But for

19:10

now, I'm SciFri producer Kathleen Davis. Thanks

19:13

for listening. At

19:17

Radiolab, we love nothing

19:19

more than nerding out

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