0:04

People know Parkinson's disease for the tremors

0:06

it can cause, but it's

0:08

much more. It's this disease that

0:11

encroaches on multiple body systems and

0:13

parts of our lives. Today

0:15

is Wednesday, March 6th, and you're

0:17

listening to Science Friday. I'm

0:27

Sci-Fi producer Charles Bergquist coming up a

0:29

talk with a recipient of this year's

0:31

Rising Black Scientist Award. He's

0:33

a graduate student looking at effects of

0:36

Parkinson's disease that go beyond the most

0:38

visible body tremors, to things

0:40

like your ability to sense your own heartbeat. Here's

0:43

Ira Flato. Parkinson's,

0:45

as you may know, is the second

0:47

most common neurodegenerative disorder in the U.S.

0:51

According to a 2022 study,

0:53

some 90,000 people

0:55

a year are diagnosed with

0:57

Parkinson's. It's a progressive

0:59

disease that worsens over time,

1:01

producing unintended or uncontrollable movements,

1:04

such as tremors, stiffness, and

1:06

difficulty with balance and coordination.

1:09

Researchers are working to better understand the

1:11

causes of the disease, how it connects

1:14

to other conditions, and how

1:16

to slow or prevent its effects. Senegal

1:19

Alfred Mabry, a third-year PhD

1:21

student in neuroscience at Cornell

1:23

University in Ithaca, New York,

1:25

chose to study Parkinson's for

1:27

an additional reason, a social

1:30

reason. And as I mentioned,

1:32

Mabry is a recipient of this year's

1:34

Rising Black Scientist Award, a program created

1:36

by Cell Press, and he joins me

1:38

now. Welcome to Science Friday.

1:42

Happy Friday, everyone. Thank you so

1:44

much for having me on. As

1:46

you've mentioned, I'm a third-year doctoral

1:48

student in human neuroscience. My advisors

1:50

are Dr. Adam Anderson and Keith

1:53

DeRosa, and a leader in the field

1:55

of emotions and

1:57

neurochemistry, respectively. Thank you.

2:00

examines the heart-brain access in Parkinson's

2:02

disease. Looking at your biography though,

2:04

you weren't originally a science guy,

2:07

right? You were a politics and

2:09

policy guy. What led to the

2:11

change? That's a great question.

2:13

I actually have seen

2:15

myself always science-adjacent or using

2:18

science, using evidence to help

2:21

communities really understand the issues

2:23

that they're experiencing. In undergraduate,

2:25

I was lucky enough to

2:27

have experiences going out to

2:29

Kenya for a fossil dig

2:31

looking for Miocene, Arahaminids, and

2:34

Resinga Island. But most

2:37

of my career path has

2:39

really been about influencing education

2:41

policy, helping policy leaders

2:44

think and redesign education systems. And

2:46

during the pandemic, I was working

2:48

for a major think tank and

2:50

I was collaborating with a bunch

2:53

of current and former

2:55

US governors across the aisle.

2:58

And the questions that they wanted

3:00

answers to, the evidence that they

3:03

were most interested in using to

3:05

influence education policy, was

3:07

evidence about the brain, particularly

3:09

when it comes to early learning. And

3:11

I said, well, if I'm going to

3:13

be effective in these spaces, if I'm

3:15

really going to help leaders make better

3:17

decisions, I need to get core

3:20

access and root knowledge to the

3:22

science. So I transitioned into a

3:24

human development program and was interested

3:26

and passionate about learning how I

3:28

can grab hold of the science,

3:31

but also communicate and democratize the

3:33

science for communities and for these

3:35

policy leaders actually able to use

3:37

to make a difference. And how

3:40

big a shift was that? Moving

3:42

into the lab and neurology. I

3:44

think a doctoral program is a

3:46

challenge for everybody. And everybody has

3:48

a different conception of what it's going

3:50

to be like. My image in

3:53

my head was going to be kind

3:55

of Mickey Mouse and Fantasia. You know,

3:57

everybody's seen that. Yeah, that classic cartoon.

4:00

where he's a sorcerer's apprentice and he's

4:02

playing with magic beyond his control, but

4:05

he has this distant but

4:07

brilliant sorcerer there to guide him.

4:10

I wanted a space where I could make

4:12

mistakes, where I could learn, where I could

4:14

fail, but I ultimately doing something that would

4:16

be interesting and meaningful.

4:19

And why my advisors really selected

4:21

me is because I already had

4:24

an experience working

4:26

alongside communities, building partnerships

4:28

between groups, building connections

4:30

and using evidence. But

4:33

they took a shot saying, well, he can

4:35

learn the neuroscience component of

4:37

this and he can use

4:39

his personal experience and the connections that

4:41

he has to take it in a

4:43

whole new direction. And that's what research

4:46

often is, is trying to understand what's

4:48

been done before, but then saying, well,

4:50

what are the questions that still need

4:52

answers and who can I work alongside

4:55

with to get those answers. But it

4:57

looks like your motivation is more than

4:59

just the laugh. You're right.

5:02

I have no black role models in the scientific

5:04

field to guide me, but my

5:07

journey has been defined by resilience,

5:09

courage and an unyielding

5:11

commitment to making a positive impact

5:13

on my community. Can you amplify

5:16

what you're saying there? I

5:18

think that really starts in going

5:21

back to Parkinson's. It's

5:23

this disease that encroaches on multiple

5:26

body systems and parts of our

5:28

lives. There are

5:30

innumerable stories in

5:32

the United States of families who

5:35

have an experience with this disease,

5:37

a loved one, a community member,

5:39

maybe they are caregivers. And

5:41

a lot of it is about access

5:44

to knowledge and how we treat and

5:46

understand and work with disease. Just

5:49

obviously, people will recognize it

5:51

from these motor symptoms, changes

5:54

in their voluntary motor function,

5:56

their gate changes. I

5:58

write in my piece that people call it

6:00

the shakes because of those changes. But

6:03

right underneath the surface, Ira, you

6:06

can see how fascinating a diabolical disease

6:08

is. When I tell you it's caused

6:10

by cell death in

6:12

this tiny subcortical brain

6:14

region that actually produces

6:16

the neuromodulator dopamine. So

6:19

the same neurochemical that's really

6:21

important for reward and for

6:23

pleasure and for exploring our

6:25

environment also has a critical

6:27

role in our motor function.

6:30

And that's where you need

6:32

these MRI tests and these

6:34

PET tests for people to

6:36

actually get a diagnosis. And

6:38

that's often denied to historically

6:40

marginalized communities, but also is

6:42

something that people here in

6:44

upstate New York are often

6:46

lacking access to. And

6:48

another way this kind of the

6:51

invisible elements of the disease take

6:53

root is in these cognitive changes,

6:55

the pattern recognition, the changes and

6:58

cognitive flexibility potentially. So all

7:00

of these are elements of

7:02

the disease that we are talking

7:04

about. We're only talking about the

7:07

motor changes, but my hope

7:09

in the piece was to

7:11

bring light to the challenges

7:13

experienced by the black community

7:16

in the US around neurogenetic

7:18

health, but also spotlight

7:20

the fact that this country

7:22

generally needs to have more

7:24

open and honest conversations about

7:26

what it means to take

7:28

care of one another and

7:30

also to steward brain health

7:32

for the people who will

7:34

be diagnosed and the

7:36

people who have currently been diagnosed. You've

7:39

mentioned that the second most common neurogenetic

7:41

disease in the world, it's also the

7:43

fastest rising. So more people are going

7:45

to be diagnosed with Parkinson's this year

7:47

than any other year and the rates

7:49

continue to climb. Do we

7:51

have the tools though yet or

7:54

now to recognize

7:56

those early symptoms and

7:58

notice that we're talking about that? we're on the

8:00

path toward Parkinson's? It's a

8:03

great question. And in a lot of

8:05

cases, yes, we do have

8:07

the tools, but they're still in

8:09

these subspecialized research areas. There's

8:12

a great researcher at the

8:14

NIH, Dr. David Goldstein, who's

8:16

doing these positron emission tomography

8:19

scans, PET scans of

8:21

the heart and showing that

8:23

the heart cell death can

8:25

occur years before the brain

8:27

changes for people who are

8:30

experiencing. Some additional symptoms, rapid

8:33

eye movement, sleep disorder, for example,

8:35

or changes in their

8:37

olfaction, their ability to smell.

8:40

So there's all of these odd

8:42

elements of the story that when

8:44

you look at them all together,

8:46

you can start getting a real

8:49

package or a real understanding of

8:51

somebody's risk factors for Parkinson's disease.

8:53

And those are the people we

8:55

can start steering towards resources. The

9:00

presidential candidate photo ops at the U.S.-Mexico

9:02

border can't show you, but the many

9:04

different ways communities and local governments are

9:07

meeting their new migrant populations. I'm

9:09

Kai Wright. On the next Notes from America,

9:12

we talk with immigration reporters from around the

9:14

country about what the response to asylum seekers

9:16

looks like where they live. Listen

9:18

wherever you get your podcasts. Tell

9:28

me more about this. Why would

9:30

symptoms outside of the brain and

9:32

in your heart, other places, be

9:35

a clue to about what's going wrong in

9:37

the brain in Parkinson's? It's

9:40

such an integrated system where

9:43

there's not one

9:45

particular change. So we're starting with

9:47

the motor changes in the disease,

9:49

yes, but that's caused by changes

9:51

in this neurochemical dopamine. So not

9:54

only is dopamine playing a role

9:56

in the motor changes, but also

9:58

the cognitive symptoms. But... changes

10:00

in something like the health of

10:02

the sympathetic nerves inside the heart

10:04

could also potentially explain things like

10:07

orthostatic hypotension. The fancy words for

10:09

saying low blood pressure when

10:11

people with Parkinson's get up from

10:13

sitting down or lying down and

10:16

it's a symptom that affects 30%

10:19

of people living with Parkinson's and

10:22

it's potentially more debilitating than the

10:24

general motor or gait symptoms because

10:26

trying to stand up or get

10:28

up can lead folks to passing

10:31

out because they're not recognizing these

10:33

changes in their low blood pressure.

10:36

My role, Ira, is really not only

10:38

to look at the symptoms but think

10:40

about how the brain and the autonomic

10:43

nervous system may actually explain the symptoms.

10:45

You can't look at everything, can you? I mean, you

10:48

must have to focus on something first in your work.

10:50

What would that be? Well, an example

10:53

of some of the work that we're doing is trying

10:56

to understand interoception in

10:59

Parkinson's disease. It's a

11:01

funny word. It's like introspection.

11:04

It's similar and to explain it

11:06

to folks, I often ask people, how many

11:08

senses do you have? So

11:10

how many senses would you say you have? Five,

11:13

six, seven. Most people say,

11:16

oh, I like this. Most people say five and

11:18

that's what we've been taught in school

11:20

and there's the obvious smell which we've

11:23

talked about being disrupted, hearing, vision, touch,

11:25

and taste are all impacted in Parkinson's

11:27

disease, sure. But now, let

11:29

me just ask you and your wonderful audience

11:31

just to close your eyes for a second,

11:33

unless you're driving, just close your eyes and

11:36

try and count your heartbeats. Give

11:38

it a couple of 30 seconds or so

11:41

just try and count your heartbeats. Breathe

11:43

out, don't touch your pulse points

11:46

and try and count them. It's not

11:48

easy to do if you're not listening

11:50

carefully to your heartbeats. If

11:53

you were able to catch them, great job. Now

11:56

tell me what sense you were using to feel those heartbeats

11:58

if you were able to catch them. out. Well,

12:01

if I were able to touch my wrists

12:03

where my pulse is, or if I

12:06

if it was really quiet and I could you

12:08

know, nighttime lying in bed or something, I might

12:10

really hear or feel it. Right. So

12:12

you didn't smell it. If you tasted it,

12:14

please go seek help immediately. Don't know about

12:16

that. But you did feel it. But it's

12:19

this internal feeling, right? Or similar to a

12:21

hearing. And so that's what we call introception.

12:23

It's your body's internal ledger

12:25

of what's happening inside of

12:28

it. It's this connection between

12:30

your brain and your body

12:32

and how your brain recognizes

12:34

what's happening inside of your

12:36

body. Right. It underlies your

12:38

emotional health, gives you feedback

12:40

from that autonomic nervous system.

12:42

And we've been testing it

12:44

to understand how impairments and

12:46

interoception and Parkinson's could connect

12:48

with these other symptoms. And

12:50

we do that using fancy

12:52

MRI, otherwise known as functional MRI,

12:55

right, to see how the connections

12:57

between brain regions change while they're

12:59

doing an introceptive task. We're still

13:01

in the early stages of research.

13:03

But what's exciting about the

13:05

approach that I've chosen to take

13:07

is we get to do this

13:09

alongside communities, including an exercise intervention

13:11

that actually has been able to,

13:13

you know, improve folks motor

13:15

and gait outcomes in control studies.

13:18

Tell me about that. What do you mean?

13:20

So I started getting this, this journey interested

13:22

in the heart, brain access and Parkinson's disease.

13:25

I didn't just file for my IRB and

13:27

start collecting, you know, data from patients. I

13:30

went out to the support groups in

13:32

the southern tier area and the Finger Lakes

13:34

area and the Tompkins County area. And they

13:37

said, all that stuff is great. And, you

13:39

know, we're happy you're trying to capture these

13:42

root elements, the disease, but what are you actually

13:44

going to do for us in the interim? How

13:46

is this going to have an immediate benefit? How

13:48

are you going to live up to these translational

13:51

ideas that you've come in and

13:53

you've talked about? And they

13:55

gave me suggestions. They gave me people to talk

13:58

to. And one of them was a doctor. Dr.

14:00

Jeff Bauer at SUNY Cortland, who

14:02

had been running this exercise study

14:05

on a high-intensity exercise intervention usually

14:07

used by these Olympic skiers called

14:09

a REACT trainer. It's this

14:12

platform where people with Parkinson's can

14:14

just safely balance on an oscillating

14:17

platform that moves underneath them, and

14:19

they get a heck of a

14:21

cardiovascular workout, and it's been able

14:23

to improve their motor and gait

14:25

symptoms. But there's so much that's

14:27

unknown about how the training of

14:30

the autonomic nervous system, which is

14:32

really what exercise is, why

14:34

it improves motor and gait symptoms

14:36

for Parkinson's. Even though

14:39

people living with Parkinson's are really

14:41

passionate about exercise, there are the

14:43

Rock City boxing programs, dance

14:46

is an incredible intervention for people

14:48

living with Parkinson's, in part because

14:50

it helps build intentionality around movement.

14:52

But we don't have clear answers

14:55

around how the brain, the autonomic

14:57

nervous system are connected from exercise.

14:59

And so we've been able to

15:01

take people and do a

15:03

pre and post study for this exercise

15:06

intervention and ask questions not only about

15:08

their interoceptive ability, these autonomic

15:10

nervous system changes, but

15:13

hopefully gather real evidence about how it

15:15

actually works so that we can tune

15:17

it and we can improve it. And

15:20

that's the type of rigor and

15:22

excellence you can get when you take

15:24

a community approach to your research, rather

15:27

than saying, I'm just going to release

15:29

this study. But thinking, well,

15:31

who are the main actors really

15:34

involved in my community? And what

15:36

are the areas of interest that

15:38

the stakeholders that I have, the people that

15:41

I'm doing the research on

15:43

behalf of are passionate about? And I

15:45

think that's what you can

15:47

only get when you're training to be a

15:49

community neuroscientist, when you've come in from a

15:52

policy or an impact background. And now

15:54

you're saying, well, how do I use

15:56

science? How do I understand and grab

15:58

hold of the tools? to actually

16:00

be able to make impact in my community.

16:03

Well, you sound like a very passionate person

16:05

yourself. Is this a topic you're

16:07

likely to continue down the road once

16:10

you complete your PhD? Where do you see

16:12

yourself headed? I think I'm

16:14

passionate about this. Again, everybody has

16:16

a story around the disease. Mine

16:19

begins, I was training

16:21

on my amazing post-doc study,

16:24

Dr. Elizabeth Riley's large study

16:26

on Alzheimer's disease. We

16:28

were collecting data from a really diverse

16:31

set of participants, black

16:33

people from Syracuse who we were able

16:35

to win a partnership to bust out

16:37

to Ithaca and do a study

16:39

about their brain health. I met

16:41

an old woman who was funny,

16:44

she was attentive, she was a

16:46

local gossip, she knew everybody in

16:48

their mother's business, and

16:50

she had a resting tremor in her right

16:52

hand, a telltale symptom. When

16:56

we gave her all of our

16:58

cognitive tests, she just flunked every

17:00

single one of them. It

17:03

didn't represent the extremely resilient

17:05

person that was in front of

17:07

me. I started on

17:09

this interested in how do we bring

17:12

what we know from psychology research

17:14

or from all these places to

17:17

honor and recognize this person's resilience.

17:20

I think being in

17:22

partnership with the Parkinson's community

17:25

and being a place where

17:27

those stories come and

17:30

then trying to do really rigorous

17:32

research to honor those stories and

17:34

provide evidence to explain why

17:37

those are the case and help people

17:39

feel seen is what I want to

17:41

do. I think you can do that best from

17:43

a research seat because you're

17:46

often the ones in charge of

17:48

or the ones stewarding, grabbing

17:50

evidence and generating evidence and helping

17:53

people understand the landscape.

18:00

Evasion and congratulations on your reward

18:02

and I look forward to hearing

18:04

from you in the future. I

18:07

beg you so much for having the I. Thank.

18:09

You for taking time to be

18:12

with us today. Cynical Alfred May

18:14

Breeze If there's your Phd Students

18:16

in Neuroscience at Cornell University in

18:18

Ithaca, New York and recently named

18:20

the recipient of this year's Rising

18:22

Black Scientists Award, that's it for

18:24

today. Lots of folks up like

18:26

the show have that, including aerials.

18:28

It's Santiago Flotus D. Peter Smith

18:30

from some As and many more.

18:33

Tomorrow a new book looks at

18:35

fi the U S is modernizing

18:37

it's nuclear arsenal and what it

18:39

means. To coexist with nuclear weapons.

18:42

And Cipher I producer transfer request. Thanks

18:44

for listening! Will. See assume. On

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