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0:33

Space exploration is at a

0:35

turning point as more countries and companies

0:37

shoot for the stars. So, who

0:39

makes the rules in space? Most

0:42

people don't know what space law is or that it

0:44

even exists. Most of my

0:46

time is just spent answering the question,

0:48

so who's your client, aliens? It's

0:51

Thursday, February 29th, and you're listening

0:53

to Science Friday. I'm sci-fi producer

0:55

Rasha Iridi. In

0:58

1967, the Outer Space Treaty took effect.

1:00

Basically, it laid down some ground rules

1:02

and established that space is for everyone.

1:05

But those rules were made decades

1:07

ago, and space exploration has taken

1:09

off since then. So

1:11

do we need new guidance? And if

1:13

so, who makes it? Guest

1:15

host Sophie Bushwick speaks with two people

1:17

on the forefront of space governance. Almost

1:22

70 years ago, in the middle

1:24

of the Cold War, the US and

1:26

the Soviet Union kicked off the race

1:28

to space. The USSR

1:30

launched the first-ever satellite, Sputnik.

1:33

The US put the first humans on the moon.

1:36

High-stakes missions like these transformed our

1:38

relationship with space forever. Now

1:41

we're in a different space race, but

1:43

this time we have a lot more

1:45

contenders. There are more satellites

1:47

in orbit than ever before. NASA

1:50

is trying to put humans on Mars.

1:53

Countries and private companies are sending

1:55

lots of landers to the moon,

1:58

and billionaires are using rockets

2:00

as tourist vehicles. All

2:03

this activity raises questions. Who is in

2:05

charge of space and who

2:07

makes the rules? A story

2:09

in Wired magazine by journalist Kari Johnson

2:12

explores these questions and it features two

2:14

scientists at the forefront of this field.

2:17

Dr. Timiebi Aganaba, assistant professor of

2:19

space and society at Arizona State

2:21

University in Tempe, Arizona, and

2:24

Dr. Danielle Wood, assistant professor

2:26

and director of the Space-Enabled

2:28

Research Group at MIT in

2:31

Cambridge, Massachusetts. Welcome to Science

2:33

Friday. Thank you so much. Thanks so

2:35

much. Danielle, how did the

2:37

first space laws come about? It's

2:39

a wonderful story to consider why we

2:42

have space laws because at

2:44

the time that the original

2:46

treaties were debated, it was a period

2:48

when things could have gone much worse

2:50

and we see countries responding to the

2:53

realities of the Cold War by encouraging

2:55

dialogue and forming a United Nations committee

2:57

called the Committee on the Peacely

3:00

Dividend Space. And they

3:02

also saw the need to propose treaties,

3:04

the first one being the Outer Space

3:06

Treaty, so there'd be opportunity to define

3:08

the principles that would govern this activity.

3:10

This all happens in the years right after

3:12

the first object by humans is launched into

3:14

space, the Sputnik satellite. It's launched by the

3:17

Soviet Union and many fears were raised at

3:19

the time, but there's also, I think, really

3:22

smart diplomacy that happened, especially to highlight

3:24

the need to avoid having nuclear weapons

3:26

or weapons of mass destruction go into

3:28

space. I often say it would

3:30

be great to celebrate this long heritage that

3:32

these early treaties helped us avoid nuclear war

3:34

in space by putting right away into the

3:36

treaties, one that many countries and

3:39

all countries deserve to have benefit from space,

3:41

but also that we should focus on space

3:43

for peaceful purposes and avoid weapons of mass

3:45

destruction. So the early treaties were

3:47

signed by the United States, United

3:50

Kingdom, and the Soviet Union. But soon

3:52

after, the committee that was forming the treaties often grew.

3:54

Looking at the graph, you can see it going from

3:56

like 20 countries in the beginning up to over 100

3:58

now. And So countries where every region

4:00

are part of the committee's now we have we

4:03

have since he should come across the world. Every

4:05

single com net is represented a separate article and

4:07

has since issues that are enjoying and giving their

4:09

views on this policy Now. And. To

4:11

me a d what precedent you think set

4:13

outer space treaty set. The. Outer

4:16

Space Treaty is a

4:18

very interesting example of

4:20

international law making. And.

4:22

It's a very unique one too because

4:24

they happen very, very fast and at

4:26

the time that it was negotiated. There.

4:28

Were only two countries that even

4:30

have the capacity to utilize the

4:33

season environments. And. If you

4:35

look at his trying to bring all these

4:37

countries together to an have to agree. On

4:39

a treaty like today is very,

4:41

very difficult. So the speed and which

4:44

they were able to do it was really

4:46

interesting but also demonstrates the players who were

4:48

in the game at the time. So everything

4:50

is kind of changed now. And.

4:53

We're talking about Space Lawyers. So

4:55

what exactly does Space Lawyer to

4:57

do and and what big questions

4:59

are there for it for this

5:01

person to think through? It really

5:03

depends on. What?

5:05

The person mandate is so

5:07

for instance, if you work

5:10

for the government to like

5:12

see. The State Department's. You.

5:14

Would be you know negotiating agreements.

5:16

You would be determined in the

5:18

boundaries of the project that you

5:21

want to do. Excedrin. If

5:23

you're a contract, Lawyer you will

5:25

be able to help people developed

5:27

the contract for that i like

5:29

manufacturing or that Launch Services contract

5:32

so that the a variety of

5:34

things that people do with respect

5:36

to launch that facilitate. Thanks.

5:38

Activities. One. Of the things

5:41

that so helpful the think about when trying to

5:43

define space law is the fact that they saw.

5:45

In. Many ways happened that the national level.

5:48

And. It's negotiate international level so we

5:50

can say that yes Faith has both

5:52

new ratified and sign the Outer Space

5:54

Treaty which means off the Us law.

5:57

And. That's really key to keeping track of

5:59

what it means for international law to be

6:01

finding. I think the key thing is this

6:03

law is meaningful specially we can countries make

6:05

it domestic law and then the same as

6:08

a legal activity that happens at the country

6:10

for other machines can happen and face. Where'd

6:13

the world stand on space law at

6:15

this point? I mean, are there any

6:17

big players? Are any nations that are

6:19

dominating the conversation? Most people don't know

6:22

what space law is. All that Etti

6:24

that exists. Most of my time is

6:26

just spent answering the question. So who's

6:29

your client? Aliens. Six assists. The

6:32

majority of people don't even know that this is

6:34

a topic or that this is an issue. So.

6:37

I don't really think this question

6:39

of dominance. Is. The right

6:41

way of asking the question. The

6:43

right way. The asking the question

6:45

is now that we are seeing

6:47

that we are going to space

6:50

and we're going to space to

6:52

stay. It's really evidence that we're

6:54

going to need very robust systems

6:56

of organizing different actors, being able

6:58

to determine different competing interests. so

7:00

people are increasingly all around the

7:02

world having to consider that as

7:04

they think a real viable projects

7:06

as I gonna do so I

7:09

would say that were all. Pretty

7:11

equally ignorant on this topic. And

7:13

it's anyone's game to learn how

7:15

to really navigate all these new

7:18

players and new activities. I'm moving

7:20

forward. The next few years I expect

7:22

we'll see a lot of novel mission that

7:25

haven't really been tried yet. This is having

7:27

different satellites are pretty and space where one

7:29

is on by a company that's helping to

7:31

provide services like fuel repair two different company.

7:34

Send. Some ways of coming up next

7:36

his new. Case studies or

7:38

uses of the as mistreating. That

7:41

will help us expand our mutual to petition across

7:43

different countries. the but there was mistreating means. Resemble.

7:46

There cause for things like trying to

7:48

not a cause harm to other missions

7:50

or of other countries. And. The

7:52

idea that a private entity is under the

7:54

thumb to prison and the opposition of the

7:56

national government that are threats that so does

7:58

it look like for. A government. To.

8:01

Get permission to a private company top

8:03

rated station and then ensure that that

8:05

happening on the decision is always following

8:07

these men just a laws. We. Haven't

8:09

tried that yet. So the new opportunity to figure

8:11

out how these last play out. And

8:14

see me A D Your work

8:16

has been fostering a generation of

8:18

the lawyers who were thinking about

8:20

these issues in space, specifically from

8:22

countries across Africa. Why it's so

8:24

important to trained lawyers from this

8:26

region of the world. And

8:28

we have the manfred let's say slow

8:30

a mood competition which is kind of

8:33

the entryway for all fake leg. Or

8:35

people interested in space that are

8:37

lawyers to get access. To either

8:39

the networks or the climate issues in

8:41

the kind of problems that could potentially

8:43

a rise in space. The Moot courts.

8:46

One of the most amazing things about

8:48

it is that you get to argue

8:50

in front of sitting judges of the

8:52

International Court of Justice. You

8:54

know that is such an amazing thing

8:56

for a young student to say that

8:58

they've argued inferences. I Cj judges. I

9:00

fell into this when I was a

9:02

teaching assistant at the International Safe University

9:04

in France. It was the

9:06

coach for a team of scientists and

9:09

engineers that entered the competition and then

9:11

when I went to go do my

9:13

master's and Phd in Canada, I was

9:15

able to participate as a student in

9:17

the North American rounds and I just

9:19

thought that it was so sad that

9:21

there was no African round. So.

9:24

African students wouldn't have had an

9:26

opportunity or a way to get

9:28

involved in this topic. so it

9:30

was really doing the work to

9:32

get an African region around established

9:34

and you don't Years later that

9:36

lives two thousand and eleven by.

9:38

decided that we had to take

9:40

it one step further. So I

9:42

set up the Space Governance Innovation

9:45

Contests Will African Students am so

9:47

so For me, it's just a

9:49

case of giving people the opportunity

9:51

to understand the kinds of problems.

9:53

And how they can contribute. It's not so much

9:55

that I was like okay, it has to be

9:57

African students, but there was nothing set up for

9:59

them. And that way you know that that

10:01

I set that up. And. This competition

10:03

sounds really interesting. Can you give me

10:06

an example of the type of case

10:08

that might be argued their back in

10:10

the day they were a lot more

10:12

far future hypothetical kind of question today.

10:15

You can find that the questions are

10:17

a lot more topical on what's actually

10:19

happening today, so you know I think

10:21

this year it's about Doc and Quiet

10:24

Sky because of the issue of mega

10:26

constellation vs. astronomers and can yell do

10:28

you have a perspective on that type

10:30

of case This idea of mega constellations.

10:33

Of all these satellites in the

10:35

sky, I'm sort of creating all

10:37

this light pollution and interfering with

10:39

the the views of humans and

10:41

animals are back on earth. And

10:43

the areas where the the love oscillations right

10:45

now he caught low earth orbit of the

10:48

area with all his commoners of of honey

10:50

to begin with the fourth quarter. that's like

10:52

a dozen orders right in the area of

10:54

the five hundred eight hundred kilometers, the back

10:57

of a destination for five constellations which means

10:59

that effort to killer rain to say a

11:01

crowded and. It's. Real that the constellations

11:03

that are bringing in the is. Really?

11:06

Important services through the internet for it.

11:08

But they're awesome become a concern for

11:10

astronomers on the ground. Because. The

11:13

either operating radio frequency that affects me on

11:15

that was happening from the point of view.

11:17

astronomy. Or. They are passing.

11:19

Your. Over and the furious When the lights on the

11:22

summers I felt the satellites and then seen from

11:24

the earth. Now folks around the world a shame

11:26

to see. Families are often bit of the fast.

11:28

They. Often as the idea that many

11:30

this is communities highly value. Seeing.

11:33

Them as an essential state for many

11:35

reasons practical reasons like navigation and cultural

11:37

reasons. I feel that connect with stories

11:39

of their heritage. And. We are

11:41

indeed in danger of altering. Are

11:43

you an expensive than it's guy?

11:46

No. Way that. On. One hand violates and really

11:48

in doesn't hold sacred some of the values and

11:50

it is me. undies for awesome. It

11:52

makes. Assist that some people are making that have

11:54

one he was having chest and of discuss or

11:56

her away and on As a young the are

11:58

many who value. The Naturals. The map for that

12:01

important debate. Is

12:03

it helps to celebrate hunt. And

12:07

connect and. We got the stories

12:09

to prove of join me Counts

12:11

Mcknight for the new season up

12:13

the Openers project a podcast on

12:15

which are toss up piece of

12:17

classical music at a summit. Most

12:19

about that music my even mind

12:21

a being meaningful for you. The

12:25

Openers project. Listen now wherever you

12:27

get podcasts. So.

12:32

How do we ensure that everyone has

12:34

a right to space? Like the Outer

12:37

Space Treaty says that spaces for everyone.

12:39

So do we do that sustainably. I'm.

12:42

Fortunate I'm a black American woman working and

12:44

ever see in Boston. But. I'll have

12:46

a chance to collaborate with leaders who are

12:48

often the first pioneers in their country. For.

12:51

Seeing how they want to his face that lot of

12:53

him. For. Example: I'm lucky to work

12:55

directly on a project with the Angolan. As

12:58

of this program. And. They wanted to

13:00

work with me on using Nasa satellite data

13:02

to monitor trout because I have experience with

13:04

Math Math Or Science Team. Have. Access

13:06

to some of the sciences too early specialist

13:09

and how to use microwave remote sensing to

13:11

monitor. And changes of as saw

13:13

mr As you the rainfall was the flooding

13:15

or lack of rain and in this case

13:17

for trying to translate that sensitive measurement and

13:20

in admissions the some tough guys the government

13:22

on how they respond to drought. This

13:24

is a good example. Will See Didn't See

13:26

is now a connector between him and We

13:28

Need Space Technology that is usually Frank a

13:31

Pc little training to use it and bring

13:33

it to the benefit of the other agencies

13:35

that are really focused on trial. For example

13:37

those are doing runs response. Is

13:39

are examples where people who believe it's

13:41

this acknowledging and nurse potential. Are. Trying

13:43

to present locally into things that matter a lot to

13:45

the economic and and social well being of the country

13:48

to practical areas that are really important of them. In

13:51

a I think Daniel made a really

13:53

good point here Set: We need to

13:55

really distinguish between capacity building it which

13:57

will everyone is obsessed with talking about.

13:59

You know, developing countries and all these

14:02

people that we have to build their

14:04

capacity and giving people an opportunity to

14:06

demonstrate that capability. Where. The since

14:08

you know sure you don't have a

14:10

rocket right? but but what we're talking

14:12

about today is that What? What actually

14:15

do you have to like a country

14:17

like Nigeria? Amazing. An Afro beats right

14:19

with really good at music were really

14:21

good at social and cultural thing. So

14:23

how would you leverage the capacity that

14:25

you already have a cigarette? How they

14:27

play and to faith is what we're

14:29

talking The only say local economic development

14:31

rather than always being seen as well

14:34

we have to build your capacity. You

14:36

don't have a rocket, you don't. Have

14:38

this the think that the reef

14:40

framing that that I've really learned

14:42

from. You know, really studying these

14:44

ideas of of multi level governance

14:46

and seeing how you play in

14:48

using your strength. As. As

14:50

the entryway and then developing you know

14:53

your limitations a weakness rather than developing

14:55

countries being brought into the conversation always

14:57

from the perspective of we have to

14:59

help you develop your capacity. Talking.

15:02

About space exploitation and these issues

15:04

of power and precedence brings up

15:07

the question of colonization. Are we

15:09

seeing parallels between the countries that

15:11

are colonizing space and the countries

15:14

the a history of colonizing other

15:16

nations here on earth. For.

15:19

Certainly the idea of what it

15:21

means for claiming territory and of

15:23

beyond went on a nearby borders

15:25

as Levin well. I do see

15:27

certain patterns and the space contact with the the pattern

15:29

that. Are there are those that

15:31

are very active? These countries with the

15:33

I want to use some of the

15:35

land of other new bring are no

15:37

distant locations because they find a direct

15:39

benefit and and things right I consider

15:41

as expensive Kenya they are on the

15:43

equator as many benefits to do with

15:45

operation on the equator and answered that

15:47

and path of Italy but off of

15:49

the Us. Has. Had activities little

15:51

months after those. The Canyon. And.

15:54

a half to death for some level of be

15:56

the countries like india are fully operating their own

15:58

did you guess is beneficial rather

16:01

than sort of partnering with countries that, you know,

16:03

one might argue they have more experience. But more

16:05

and more, I see some technical leaders in places

16:07

all around Africa. I see there's an opportunity for

16:10

countries that in the past were heavily colonized to

16:13

stand on their own technical leadership and partner on an equal

16:15

basis with other countries, rather than on sort of a host

16:17

basis. I also

16:19

am a spaces by the country of Bermuda. They're

16:21

a small island, and they're very proud that they partner with both the United

16:23

States and with Europe to be a tracking location. And

16:26

they take a lot of benefit, and they find

16:28

it to be a benefit to their country to

16:30

be a host with these partners. And it helps

16:32

them to inspire their own youth and their own

16:34

sense of being part of the space program. So

16:36

I think that's an interesting contrast where Bermuda says,

16:38

look, we are so excited to use our unique

16:40

location on the Atlantic Ocean to be a tracking

16:42

site and to have multiple countries working with us.

16:45

And part of their space strategy is to maintain

16:47

that activity and to use it to spur their

16:49

own local development in space. So there's different ways you

16:51

can partner. But the key thing is to

16:53

have the power beyond, you know, from equal footing on both sides. And

16:56

I am concerned that players who move

16:59

first in locations beyond the Earth, especially on

17:01

the Moon, are likely to act in a

17:03

colonial way. And when I say colonial, I mean to

17:05

behave in a way that's allowable because one is

17:07

first and one has certain technological

17:09

and military power, rather than acting in a

17:11

way that considers the connection between all the

17:13

players that really have the right to be

17:16

there. So I do think it's

17:18

important that we have dialogue and that the place that really

17:20

happens is this committee. It's called

17:22

the Committee on the Theseal Use of Outer Space in United Nations.

17:24

And the good news is there are countries from every region in

17:26

that committee. And they are

17:28

all having the same level of influence in terms of

17:30

how they can come to agreement because it has

17:33

to be done by consensus. I'd love

17:35

to hear from both of you about what

17:37

the next era of space exploration looks like

17:39

to you. I want

17:41

everyone to pay attention because I think

17:43

that right now, 2024, is

17:46

a key transition in the experience of

17:48

how humans relate to space, meaning

17:50

we're in a period where the technologies that

17:52

many of us have dreamed about are starting

17:54

to see that becoming true. And this

17:56

means to me that We must all

17:59

pay attention because... I were going to

18:01

has long term consequences. The. Examples of and

18:03

of who's involved and and who goes there

18:05

first will start to late president. And.

18:07

The lily was actually the happen in orbit and

18:09

these are exciting but also means that whatever we

18:12

do now our children's doesn't want to see the

18:14

results. Are encouraged us to be very thoughtful.

18:16

Also to v re optimistic where I see

18:19

the see today is a lot of hard

18:21

work. In. Understanding what a

18:23

we even talking about lonely

18:25

talk about activities like these

18:27

exploitation our values aligned in

18:29

all those things given the

18:31

experience from climate change which

18:33

is that perpetual growth is

18:36

unsustainable. Than. The Language is

18:38

the safe industry that completely focused on

18:40

the growth of the same economy is

18:42

already going down a bad line. Rather,

18:44

I would propose that we focus on.

18:47

Economic. Development, Socio economic development as

18:49

the foundation and the basis for any

18:51

kind of growth that we want to

18:53

do. The that's my goal moving. Forward.

18:56

Thank. You both for joining me. Think

18:58

us and a buzzard. Thank you

19:01

so much Doctor Kim Yeah, be

19:03

Atlanta by his his assistant professor,

19:05

Space and Society at Arizona State

19:07

University in Tempe, Arizona and Doctor

19:09

Danielle Would isn't assistant professor and

19:11

Director of the Space Enabled Research

19:13

Group at Mit in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

19:16

That's it for today. Join a smile for

19:18

around up as this week science news

19:20

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