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episodes every Monday. Listen to every

0:25

good podcast. How

0:33

can a tiny ant change how lions hunt?

0:36

There's a hint. It involves trees and

0:38

elephants. So you've got

0:41

these tiny three milligram ants

0:43

that are defending trees against

0:45

three billion milligram elephants. It's

0:48

Tuesday, February 27th, and you're listening

0:50

to Science Friday. I'm

0:56

Sci-fi producer Charles Bergquist. Coming up,

0:58

we'll talk with researchers studying the

1:01

predator-prey dynamics of the African savanna

1:03

about the chain of effects one invasive

1:06

ant species had on the ecosystem. But

1:09

first, Kathleen Davis talks with two researchers

1:11

investigating the psychology of trivia, how to

1:13

get better at it, and why some

1:15

people seem to be much more adept

1:18

at recalling fun trivia facts than others.

1:21

Here's Kathleen. I

1:23

love doing trivia. Every

1:25

couple of weeks, I go to my local

1:28

dive bar for trivia night. I'm also an

1:30

avid Jeopardy! watcher. But despite

1:32

all this, I'm still not very good.

1:35

But rather than give up on my

1:37

dream of being a top-tier trivia player,

1:40

this got me thinking. Can

1:42

I actually get better at trivia? And

1:45

why are some people better at it than others? A

1:48

new study in the journal Psychonomic

1:50

Bulletin and Review looked at exactly

1:52

this. And here to break

1:54

down the psychology of trivia are two

1:56

co-authors of that paper, Dr. Monica

1:59

Tiu. Psychology. Researcher at

2:01

Emory University and Edge a

2:03

pretty winner. Choose based in

2:05

Atlanta, Georgia and Doctor Merriam

2:07

Alley assistant Professor of Psychology

2:10

at Columbia University in New

2:12

York. Welcome both of you

2:14

Design Friday. To. Me think we

2:16

have. Thank you! Okay thanks so much for

2:18

having some really excited. Yeah so am I

2:21

so Monica, Tommy A little bit about where

2:23

the idea for the study came from. I

2:25

mean was it from your time on Jeopardy?

2:27

Yeah I need to be for a friend

2:30

since I a first with on Jeopardy as

2:32

a senior and high school when I went

2:34

to college like majored in psychology of the

2:36

sites. no one day I'm gonna have a

2:39

razor say where we can call candidates and

2:41

ask upcoming illustrates get us which we didn't

2:43

get any would break the study. Is. So

2:45

it's still do it. But. I

2:48

have think you're his for a long time about.

2:50

Our trivia experts memory I

2:52

stood including read his. May

2:54

be different than other people because I've always

2:57

known other people. My classes in my

2:59

grad programs. Who. Are so smart and

3:01

yet they all relate on about why

3:03

did you know all his brand of

3:05

stuff. And so it really. It wasn't

3:08

until I was at school where I

3:10

felt like I had enough of those

3:12

science idea actually do research study about

3:14

it so you didn't get to scan

3:16

Ken Jennings his brain. But did you

3:19

talk to other Jeopardy contestants about this?

3:21

Yeah, so it's funny. nineteen. I was

3:23

invited to do the It Jeopardy All

3:25

Star Games and while it was Thera

3:27

it was meeting other debris champions who

3:30

are. So great and so smart

3:32

and so knowledgeable. Yeah, and as

3:34

we were talking about people in

3:36

how experience of knowing and remembering

3:38

trivia something that I realized that

3:40

we seem to have in common

3:43

with state other experts they talk

3:45

to you seem excessive. A really

3:47

good memory for the episodic details

3:49

of when they learned Target So

3:51

lake, where were you white text

3:53

book What class lake? Where did

3:55

you say? what trip did you

3:58

go on where you saw this

4:00

in a museum way. All that

4:02

side memory it's it is about

4:04

learning the fact that not necessarily

4:06

disability and okay very interesting. So

4:08

how did you actually pass this

4:11

idea Monica? So when that Miriam

4:13

and I were designing this research

4:15

study weird new to we had

4:17

to try to teach pupils new

4:19

fact. He ended up because if

4:21

you're trying. To recruit some trivia experts

4:23

and some trivia non experts to do a

4:25

study. he said a. Big issue is that

4:28

of your participants already know a bunch of

4:30

stuff and so them were not casting their

4:32

memory for learning new things were only testing

4:34

their memory. For stuff they already know.

4:37

So. When idea when learn

4:39

or third quarter with the we basically

4:41

like literally went to the library and

4:43

checked on reference bucks and like who

4:45

went to the mat. When said

4:48

Encyclopedia Britannica? Dot com and spend so much. Time

4:50

on their collecting glimpse of

4:52

obscure fags to put together. These

4:55

little quote Unquote Science and

4:57

History Museum. So. What did

4:59

museums really are is it's an

5:01

online tasked Were on each exhibit

5:03

page you would see a little

5:05

picture of an exhibit items immediately,

5:07

a particular musical instrument or history.

5:09

Or you'll also see a little

5:11

sharga Please Courage giving you some

5:13

information about that musical instrument? Yeah,

5:16

and you'd be read as act

5:18

on the please guarded by area.

5:20

So. What we have people do is

5:23

we had them go through these museums. One

5:25

exhibit. Then. After

5:27

they went thirty is near the end. We

5:29

tested or memory for three different. So.

5:32

First it has to their memory for attribute

5:34

that they would have learned from the papers.

5:37

Than. Be tested their memories for which

5:39

exhibit pictures they saw. So let's say

5:41

you saw a picture of a Harding

5:43

or Federal which in this case is

5:46

like I Norwegian violin like instrument the

5:48

used it in before the break the

5:50

two towers on Pm. It's great but

5:52

let's say we. Shall you? two different

5:54

pictures of chew hurting Settle? One.

5:57

is the one you saw before and one as

5:59

a slightly different picture of a different fiddle. But

6:02

you can't use your memory to say, one

6:04

is a fiddle and one is not. You

6:07

have to remember exactly which one you saw.

6:09

So after we tested people's memory for the

6:11

facts they saw and the exhibit pictures, finally

6:13

we tested their memory for which museum they

6:16

saw that picture in. Because we showed people

6:18

these exhibits in two different quote unquote museums.

6:21

One was called the Amber Archives where

6:23

everything was like orange themed. And

6:25

one was called the Cobalt Collections

6:27

where everything was blue themed. So

6:30

then when we analyzed the data, we

6:32

looked at A, how was people's memory

6:34

for the facts that they learned in

6:36

the study? And B, does

6:38

memory for the picture that you saw

6:41

in the exhibit and which museum you

6:43

saw it in, seem to

6:45

correlate with your memory for the fact

6:48

itself? Okay, super fascinating. So, Miriam, when

6:50

you took a look at all this

6:52

data, what did you find? So

6:55

what we found is that trivia experts

6:58

were better at learning brand

7:00

new novel facts in our experiment. So

7:02

these are facts they'd only seen before

7:04

in our study and they were better

7:06

at acquiring these new facts. But

7:08

they didn't have better memory overall. So if

7:10

we just asked them to indicate which of

7:12

the two photographs they saw in the exhibit,

7:14

they weren't better at that than people who

7:17

weren't experts. So their memory wasn't better

7:19

across the board, but they seemed to be uniquely

7:21

good at learning new facts. And

7:23

the critical thing that we found was

7:25

that in trivia experts, but

7:28

not non-experts, when they

7:30

remembered a new fact, they

7:32

were also more likely to remember multiple

7:34

features about how they learned it. So

7:37

they remembered the details of the museum

7:39

exhibit, like whether it was the Amber

7:41

archives or the Cobalt collection, and

7:43

the specific photo that was paired with that

7:46

fact. So it really nicely dovetails with

7:48

the anecdotal reports from experts that

7:50

when they recall a fact, they

7:53

remember details about how and where

7:55

they learned it. Okay, super interesting.

7:58

So, Miriam, I mean- why

8:00

do some people remember better

8:02

than others? Do we know? Like, is that

8:05

information stored in maybe different parts of the

8:07

brain? That's a

8:09

really good question. In this particular

8:11

study, we don't know whether trivia

8:14

experts are better able

8:16

to bind these unique information about

8:18

the fact and episode because of

8:20

something different about how they're paying

8:22

attention. If it's something different

8:25

about how their memory systems work or

8:27

if it's something else altogether, we do know that

8:29

they don't seem to be trying to do this

8:31

intentionally. So it doesn't seem

8:33

to be a strategy that trivia

8:35

experts have that non-experts don't have.

8:38

But we don't know yet whether

8:40

it's something related to how they

8:42

pay attention during the learning experience.

8:44

Do they attend more broadly whereas

8:46

non-experts might attend more narrowly? Or

8:49

is it something related to how their memory

8:51

systems work? So is it just that their

8:54

episodic memory system and their kind of fax

8:56

memory systems are more tightly

8:58

coupled than those of non-experts? Okay.

9:00

So, I mean, can I take this

9:03

information and apply it to

9:05

my own learning? Like, can I train

9:08

myself to become the winner of

9:10

my local bars trivia, Miriam? I

9:13

wish I could answer that. I can speculate.

9:16

Based on our results, we don't know whether

9:18

this is going to be trainable. So we'd

9:20

like to think that given that

9:22

trivia experts have these super bound memories between

9:25

what they learned and how they learned it,

9:27

that maybe if we could get non-experts to

9:29

try to bind those pieces of information together,

9:31

maybe they'd become more like the experts. And

9:34

to answer that question, we'd really have to

9:36

do another study where we try to train

9:38

people to show these memory signatures

9:40

of experts by binding together what

9:43

they learned and how they learned it. So

9:45

can you kind of walk me through, there's

9:47

this concept of the memory palace. Can you

9:49

kind of walk me through what this is

9:52

and what it means? Yeah. So the memory

9:54

palace is a related but really relevant concept.

9:56

So when we think about a memory palace,

9:59

for example, So if I need to memorize,

10:01

and for reference, I'm way too lazy to

10:03

learn how to do this stuff. But

10:07

if I need to memorize, let's say I shuffle

10:09

a deck of cards and I lay out all

10:12

the shuffled cards and I need to remember the

10:14

order of each of the 52 cards only by

10:16

looking at the deck for like 15 or 20

10:18

seconds. What I

10:20

might do is I might prepare for

10:22

each of the 52 cards, let's

10:25

say the Queen of Spades versus

10:27

the Three of Diamonds, I

10:29

might prepare for each of those a

10:31

particular really vivid image that I then

10:34

place in a memory representation

10:36

of a physical location that I know

10:38

really well. So let's say like my

10:40

apartment building or my office. And then

10:42

if I need to remember a list

10:44

of arbitrary things like the cards in

10:47

the deck, I can place each of

10:49

those sort of cards like mental images. So

10:51

for example, for the Three of

10:53

Clubs, maybe it's like Jerry's Eyes, Elders,

10:56

and things. I can place each

10:58

of those people, places, ideas into

11:01

my memory palace, in this

11:03

case, my mental image of

11:05

my apartment. And as I

11:07

walk around and I go

11:09

through the list, it'll help

11:11

me remember the information in

11:14

that list better because people's

11:16

episodic memory, their memory for

11:18

places, experiences, and perceptual

11:20

information, so what we can see here, taste,

11:22

smell, etc. It's really

11:24

good. And so memorizing lists is

11:26

not something that people are generally

11:28

as good at. So the

11:31

memory palace is believed to work because

11:33

it allows us to leverage the episodic

11:35

memory system for remembering places and experience,

11:38

and especially navigating through places and

11:40

seeing things that allows us to

11:42

use that system to help us

11:44

remember lists of things. The

11:47

way we think this relates to the

11:49

memory that we study is that we

11:51

don't actually think that trivia experts are

11:53

using a memory palace, but

11:55

the memory palace shows us that when we

11:58

use episodic memory, it can help us. us

12:00

remember some non-episodic

12:02

memory or act information better and

12:05

that maybe trivia experts are doing

12:07

something sort of any other direction

12:09

where because their episodic memory and

12:11

their fact memory are naturally talking

12:13

to each other more, that that helps them

12:15

remember the fact better. Thank you

12:17

both so much for joining me,

12:19

Dr. Monica Tu, psychology researcher at

12:22

Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, and

12:24

Dr. Maryam Ali, assistant professor of

12:26

psychology at Columbia University in New

12:28

York. Thank you, it's been fun.

12:30

Thank you so much, it's been

12:32

a pleasure. The first

12:35

years of the HIV and AIDS epidemic

12:37

were filled with loss. It was an

12:39

awful disease back then, I mean they

12:41

were just dying. One of the epicenters

12:43

was the pediatric unit at Harlem Hospital.

12:45

The kids would tell us how

12:47

did they want to die, what clothes they want to

12:49

have on, you know. This is the

12:51

story of people whose lives were changed

12:54

by AIDS. Blind spots, the

12:56

plague in the shadows, a series from

12:58

the History Channel and WNYC Studios. Listen

13:01

wherever you get podcasts. When

13:08

people talk about the interconnectedness of nature,

13:10

the basic example usually goes something like

13:12

the little fish eats the bug, the

13:14

big fish eats the little fish, and

13:17

then an even bigger fish eats that.

13:19

But in reality, the relationships can

13:21

be a lot more complicated. Take

13:24

the example of a recent report in

13:26

the Journal of Science which describes how

13:28

the arrival of an invasive ant species

13:30

in Africa changed the number

13:33

of zebras that get eaten by lions.

13:35

Joining me now to help connect those

13:38

dots are two of the researchers on

13:40

that project. Jacob Goheen is a professor

13:42

and Douglas Camaro is a graduate student,

13:45

both in the Department of Zoology and

13:47

Physiology at the University of Wyoming in

13:49

Laramie, Wyoming. Welcome to Science Friday.

13:52

Thanks Sophie, good to be here. This

13:54

is a bit of a twisted path so

13:56

let's step through it point by point. First,

13:58

to set the scene, where

14:01

were you studying? So this

14:03

research occurred at Old Pejita Conservancy,

14:05

which is right on the equator

14:07

in central Kenya. And

14:10

it's about a 250 square kilometer property. It's

14:15

managed jointly for wildlife conservation

14:17

and also cattle ranching. And

14:20

can you describe the landscape there for us? I'd

14:23

call it a classic African savanna.

14:25

So you've got too

14:28

many trees to call it a grassland,

14:30

and you've got too many grasses to

14:32

call it a forest. So it's kind

14:34

of between those two extremes. And

14:38

both of those plant forms kind

14:40

of co-occur, but neither really

14:42

outcompetes or dominates the other.

14:45

And so that's the situation. And then these

14:48

invasive ants, they arrive on the scene. So

14:50

who are these guys? This

14:53

is the big headed ant, the Dole megacephala.

14:58

And we're really not sure about

15:00

its origins. It likely was introduced

15:02

in bushels of produce imported from

15:04

somewhere in the Indian Ocean, perhaps

15:07

Mauritius. These are roughly one

15:09

milligram ants. And they're labeled

15:11

as one of the globe's top

15:13

100 invaders. And

15:17

when they invade, what happens? In

15:20

general, not much. But

15:22

in this instance, the trees

15:24

that I was just describing earlier are

15:27

what we would call mermakophites. They're

15:29

ant plants. They defend themselves

15:32

with these tiny little bodyguards.

15:35

These are called acacia ants or

15:37

sometimes cocktail ants. They're

15:39

tiny, but they're three times the size of

15:42

a big headed ant. So they're about three

15:44

milligrams. And believe

15:46

it or not, they defend trees from

15:48

the world's largest

15:50

extant land mammal, that

15:52

being the African elephant

15:55

or the Savannah elephant. So you've

15:57

got these tiny three milligram ants.

16:00

that are defending trees against 3 billion

16:03

milligram elephants. Hang

16:06

on, how are ants defending trees

16:08

against elephants? So that's a great

16:10

question. If you think about elephants, they're

16:12

unique in a number of things, one

16:14

of which is their nostrils are about

16:17

six or eight feet from their mouths. So

16:19

their nostrils are on the tips of their

16:21

trunks. And so when

16:23

they're feeding on a tree, they've got to stick

16:26

that trunk into a bunch of foliage

16:29

and then grab a trunk full

16:31

of leaves and pull. And that

16:33

whole process takes about three seconds

16:35

before the elephant is putting

16:37

those leaves into its mouth. And

16:40

in that time, you've got lots of

16:42

these acacia ants that are swarming up

16:44

into the nostrils of elephants. Ouch.

16:48

Yeah, ouch. And

16:51

because of that trunk, it kind

16:53

of exposes elephants to this unusual

16:55

defense by the tree. Things like

16:57

giraffes will just use their tongues

16:59

to swipe ants away from their

17:02

eyes and nostrils. Things like

17:04

black rhinos will just plug up their

17:06

nostrils and eat, but the system is

17:08

kind of rigged against elephants because of

17:10

that trunk. And so to get

17:13

at your earlier question, what the big

17:15

headed ants do is they form these

17:17

super colonies of tens to

17:19

hundreds of thousands of individuals. And

17:21

unlike the acacia ants,

17:24

they don't defend trees. They

17:27

don't live on trees. They live

17:29

in cracks and crevices in the

17:31

soil. And just by virtue

17:33

of their numbers, they can overwhelm

17:35

and just clobber the

17:37

native acacia ants and render

17:40

those trees defenseless against elephants.

17:43

So essentially what happens is

17:45

the big headed ants come in,

17:48

they destroy the defenders of the trees,

17:50

these larger ants that have been

17:52

protecting the trees from elephants, and

17:54

then the elephants reduce the tree

17:56

cover. Is that right? Yep,

17:58

you got it. Absolutely. So

18:01

when you lose that tree cover, what happens

18:03

to the other animals? I

18:06

mean the ones that we

18:08

addressed in this study were lions

18:11

and their primary prey, those

18:13

being plain zebra. And

18:16

zebra require kind of

18:18

big open expanses to detect lions. They

18:21

want to see lions and then just

18:23

run away from them. So

18:25

in areas that are open where tree cover

18:27

has been reduced, zebra

18:29

can more effectively avoid lions. On the

18:32

flip side of that, lions like areas

18:34

that are bushy. So they like these

18:36

trees, they like to hide behind them

18:38

and use them as stocking covers. So

18:40

you can imagine that when you go

18:42

from a pretty dense savanna

18:44

with lots of trees to one that

18:46

is suddenly now more open, the

18:49

lions are exposed and they can't

18:51

ambush zebra as effectively as they

18:53

once did. Okay,

18:55

so I think I understand the theory here,

18:57

but Douglas, could you tell us a little

19:00

about how you did go about proving this

19:02

in practice? Yeah, thanks, Sophie.

19:04

What we did actually, we used a

19:06

combination of methods. You know,

19:09

we have this tree cover like to see how

19:11

comparing areas that are invaded by the

19:14

big headed ants and

19:16

the areas that are not invaded. And

19:18

what we noticed here, what we realized

19:20

is that in the invaded areas, we

19:23

had about five to seven times higher

19:25

visibility on low tree covers compared to

19:27

areas that we did have big headed

19:29

ants. We also colored our

19:31

fitted GPS collars on lions to be able

19:34

to tell where they are going in this

19:36

time or where they are moving. Wow,

19:38

wait, what was, sorry, I have to interrupt.

19:40

What was it like to put a tracking

19:42

collar on a lion? Quite

19:45

some work. Yeah, that

19:49

present involves a lot of logistics. Because

19:51

we did that in collaboration or partnership

19:53

with K-N-Y Wildlife Service. So there's a

19:55

lot of moving parts that we had

19:57

to put together. have

20:00

to dot them using a dot gun, like

20:02

kind of make them sleep. And then you

20:04

feed the GPS and also it's a lot

20:07

of work like going out in the morning

20:09

looking for them, you know, see where they're

20:11

trying within the conservancy or the computer. And

20:14

also we use the GPS callers to see

20:16

where they're killing. Once they align with

20:18

the lion things in one place for

20:20

long, then we go there and

20:22

then we assess what actually the question is

20:25

what the lion is being there. So

20:27

sometimes you go there, you find them with a

20:29

cure and you're able to identify the cure. And

20:32

also sometimes you could go and find some little

20:34

cubs. You know, once lions when they learn they

20:37

have little cubs, they tend to stay in one

20:39

place for quite a while. We

20:41

also did count animals, like

20:43

zebras within the conservancy to be

20:45

able to determine their densities and so

20:48

on. Okay. And you mentioned that

20:50

the lions aren't able to prey on

20:52

the zebras as easily when they're in

20:54

these areas where the big head ants

20:56

have moved in. So did you find

20:58

that the lions were going hungry or

21:00

did they end up eating something else?

21:03

Our hypothesis was if the lions

21:05

are not able to eat their

21:08

birds, which is their primary

21:10

prey, then they'll go hungry.

21:13

And then after they go hungry, then we

21:15

expect their preparation to decry. But that's not

21:17

what we saw after we did our analysis.

21:20

So we were a little bit surprised. And

21:22

then after analyzing some more data, that's

21:24

when we realized that lion actually shifted

21:26

their diet to eating more buffalo. So

21:29

the lions actually were able to sweet

21:32

their diet and you know, killing more buffalo.

21:34

Although it's actually difficult to kill buffalo because

21:37

it takes up to five to 10 other

21:39

lions to bring down a buffalo because the

21:41

buffalo are aggressive and they tend to kind

21:44

of fight back compared to

21:47

zebras. And it takes like

21:49

let's say two to three other

21:51

lions to bring down a zebras. Wow.

21:54

So I guess that's good news for the

21:56

zebras. But Jake, can you tell us what's

21:59

going to happen? them, is their population

22:01

just going to get really big in

22:03

these treeless landscapes? That's

22:05

a good question. We think that probably is

22:08

not likely in that

22:10

zebra numbers are controlled by

22:13

grass. So they're controlled

22:15

by their food supply, which is in

22:17

turn controlled by rainfalls. So they seem

22:20

to vary independently of

22:22

what the lions are doing. On

22:24

the other hand, it is possible

22:26

that this prey switching from zebra

22:28

to buffalo that Douglas just described

22:31

could reduce the number of buffalo on

22:33

this property. And

22:36

is the cascade of effects going to keep

22:38

going beyond even reducing buffalo? Like the fewer

22:41

zebra kills also affect the vultures or

22:43

some other scavengers? Yeah, that's

22:46

another great question. We really don't know

22:48

whenever there are big species

22:51

invasions like with this big headed

22:53

ant. They're winners and losers. And

22:55

sometimes those take a

22:57

while to reveal themselves. So I

23:00

could imagine something like that happening. The thing

23:02

that I think is on

23:04

both Douglas's and my radar is

23:07

that this particular tree, this

23:09

mermechocyte, is a

23:11

key food for globally endangered black

23:14

rhinos. So that I

23:16

think is the next thing that we likely would look

23:18

at. Where do you

23:20

go from here? So what's next for

23:23

your research in this area? The

23:25

next things we're really interested in

23:28

looking at is whether the

23:30

removal or the eradication of

23:32

big headed ants will

23:35

revert those invaded

23:38

areas back to something that

23:40

resembles their kind

23:42

of natural or pristine state. It's

23:44

possible that we remove

23:47

the invasive ants and

23:49

the occasion ants recolonize the

23:51

defend trees and we get

23:53

something resembling the savanna

23:56

prior to that big headed ant

23:58

invasion. It's also possible. that

24:01

we remove the big-headed ants and then nothing

24:04

happens. In which case it would

24:06

say that it's more difficult to

24:08

restore this ecosystem than we might

24:10

have thought originally. The second thing,

24:12

and Douglas mentioned this in one

24:14

of his earlier answers, is

24:16

that it takes three to four times

24:18

the number of lions to bring down

24:21

a buffalo than it

24:23

does a zebra. And

24:25

frequently in the Serengeti Greater

24:27

ecosystem to the south, male

24:30

lions are involved in hunting buffalo

24:32

which is pretty unusual. They typically

24:35

are not involved in hunting other

24:37

prey. So we're actually

24:39

interested in whether this big-headed ants

24:41

invasion is causing changes

24:43

to the social structure of lion

24:45

prides and different hunting groups of

24:48

lions. Thank

24:50

you both so much for coming to tell us

24:52

about how these teeny tiny ants have had such

24:54

a massive effect. Absolutely. Thanks

24:56

a bunch for your interest. Jacob

24:59

Goheen is a professor and Douglas Camaro

25:01

is a graduate student both at the

25:04

Department of Zoology and Physiology at the

25:06

University of Wyoming in Laramie, Wyoming. That's

25:09

it for today. Lots of folks helped make

25:11

the show happen this week including... ...Folissimares,

25:14

Danielle Johnson... ...Beth

25:16

Rami... ...Mahima Ahmed... ...and

25:18

many more. Next time we'll

25:20

dive into the sensitive science of

25:22

shark smell. Probably best not to

25:24

boop that snoo. I'm

25:26

Charles Berkowitz. Thanks for listening. We'll see you

25:29

soon.