0:00

On this radio lab, we're talking about

0:02

crabs. Trees are tree Crabs?

0:05

Crabs all the way down from

0:07

radio lab. Listen wherever you find

0:09

podcasts.

0:19

Listener supported, WNYC Studios.

0:23

This is Science Friday. I am

0:25

Iraplato. To say that,

0:27

this has been a strange winter

0:30

would be stating overstating the

0:32

obvious, like sixty degree temperatures

0:35

in the north east when it should be in

0:37

the thirties. It's a warming

0:39

climate trend. The winters aren't

0:42

as cold and some places colder

0:44

than others spring comes earlier,

0:46

and the plants, they don't know what to do.

0:48

They poke up their new shoots up through the soil

0:51

weeks earlier than expected. Then

0:54

a sudden freeze comes by and kills

0:56

the buds. I was going through seed

0:58

catalogs looking to plant the garden

1:00

that's more resilient to these change

1:03

and that's what we're gonna talk about this

1:05

hour. Plants, soil,

1:08

gardening 2 attract and feed the wildlife,

1:10

like the birds and the bees and the other pollinators.

1:13

And the good news is that we're taking your

1:15

gardening questions 2. What

1:17

do you want to know about planting a climate

1:20

resilient garden. Give us

1:22

a ring. You make the call, but only

1:24

if you make the call are number 447248255844

1:30

sci talk or of course you can tweet us

1:32

at sci fi and maybe you have

1:34

some hints are tips that you'd like to

1:36

share, 8447248255,

1:40

and we have a bunch of guests who are gonna help

1:42

us out here. Let me introduce them.

1:44

Laura Ek Laura Erickson, a burger

1:46

and author based in Duluth, Minnesota.

1:49

Her most recent book, one hundred

1:51

plants to feed the birds turn your

1:53

home garden into a healthy bird

1:55

habitat. Also, doctor Tiffany

1:57

Carter, research soil scientist at

2:00

the USDA based in Lincoln, Nebraska,

2:02

has listened to the show you know how much I

2:04

am interested in the soil. And doctor

2:07

Lucy Bradley, a horticulturist, an

2:09

extension specialist in North Carolina

2:11

State University in Raleigh, and I'm

2:13

sure Dr. Bradley answers all kinds of

2:15

questions about people's soil and

2:17

their gardens and what's wrong, what's going right, and

2:20

she'll answer yours if you if you phone us.

2:22

All of you welcome to Science Friday.

2:25

Delighted to be here. Thank you.

2:28

I'm delighted to be here too. Very

2:31

nice to have you all. Laura, let me

2:33

that with you because I know that you're a burger,

2:36

but you wrote a book about

2:37

plants. Fill us in on why that happened.

2:41

My publisher, Story Publishing,

2:44

had already published one book,

2:46

a hundred plants to feed the bees,

2:48

and another one, one hundred lands

2:51

to feed the monarchs. So they

2:53

thought birds would be the next one.

2:55

And mind is a little

2:57

different because I'm not only

2:59

talking about plants that produce

3:02

nectar and seeds

3:04

and nuts or acorns. I'm

3:06

also talking about plants because

3:10

locally native plants are the

3:12

ones that provide the insects that

3:15

all just about every kind

3:17

of backyard bird needs. Insect

3:20

food is so critical to birds

3:22

that we're having so many problems losing

3:26

native insects that that

3:28

was one of my big focuses

3:30

on the

3:30

book.

3:31

Tell me about why we're being such a problem

3:33

losing native insects? It's

3:36

all kinds of things, all conspiring

3:39

together, decides, of

3:41

course. But also,

3:44

we don't keep water

3:48

a lot of the wetlands that used

3:50

to be rich with may

3:52

fly streams and rivers that

3:54

had very clean well

3:57

oxygenated water have become

3:59

more neutrophic, now more

4:01

plants, which seems like a

4:03

good thing except as they died,

4:05

they use up all the oxygen and

4:07

mayflies can't survive

4:10

there and mayflies depend

4:12

on our or purple martins

4:15

and several other swallows, Nighthawks,

4:19

whipper whales, they all depend

4:21

heavily. MACE wise,

4:23

force fueling their spring

4:25

migration. And when

4:28

they get to their breeding

4:31

grounds, that's what they feed their babies.

4:33

We're losing so many native

4:37

insects because so many evasive

4:40

exotic plants have crowded

4:42

out the native plants that

4:44

supply

4:46

many of the insects that birds

4:48

need to. So Yeah. Now you've

4:50

certainly answered that question. Lucy,

4:52

let me take you well, you take

4:54

me. Would you wanna walk through your garden.

4:57

What what have you got growing now?

4:59

Oh, my garden's so fun. I have

5:02

lots of edibles, so I have fruit

5:04

trees and fruit buses and

5:06

ground cover strawberries and things, and I

5:08

also grow native plants to

5:11

feed the birds like Laura was saying.

5:13

And I grow plants for cut flowers. So

5:15

the MYR, you have to be multifunctional.

5:18

So I'm looking for things that are going

5:20

to feed me or the birds or provide

5:23

cut flowers that are going to attract

5:25

people and and insects and

5:27

and fun. Do do you see

5:29

climate change affecting your garden? Have

5:32

you experience changed there? Yes.

5:35

I go out now and sing well abies

5:37

to my fruit trees to say try and keep them

5:39

asleep for a little bit long because they get

5:41

those high temperatures and they pop out

5:43

and then they're like you said, they're susceptible to

5:45

a late freeze. So the challenge

5:47

that I see is that it's not just that

5:49

we're getting warmer is that there's so much more

5:52

variability. So we don't just need plants

5:54

that are going to survive a drought. We need plants

5:56

that can survive drought and blood. We

5:58

need plants that can survive hot and

6:00

cold. So we need plants

6:02

that are more resilient in wider array

6:04

of circumstances.

6:06

Yeah. IIII agree

6:08

with you. Tiffany, you're a soil

6:10

scientist. What made you think that soil

6:12

was so cool that you wanted to

6:14

it. I mean, I I love soil. What what

6:16

what 10 you want about the soil? Yes.

6:19

So I'm actually

6:21

a soil biologist, so not only

6:23

do I focus on the soil, I focus on

6:26

all the things that live in the soil. Mhmm.

6:28

Yeah. I just get

6:31

really excited if somebody's got to care for these little

6:33

critters. Right? We've got all kinds of cool things

6:35

going on down there. You've got their microbes and

6:37

you've got, you know, earthworms and So

6:40

all that life, you know, I I love studying

6:42

life, love looking at life, and so that's what got me into

6:44

soil. There's so much life there that that we don't

6:46

see with the the naked

6:48

eye. Alright. Read somewhere that there is like

6:50

a billion organisms in a

6:52

in a in a spoonful of

6:54

soil. Is that

6:55

right? Yes. Yeah?

6:56

Yes. Absolutely. And

6:58

and that's the soil health is

7:00

important for the garden health. Howard Bauchner:

7:02

Absolutely. Soil health is

7:04

probably the most important thing. When we care for

7:06

soil. We're caring for the rest of the ecosystem,

7:08

which does include those soil organisms. Mhmm.

7:11

Give me give me an idea of what's going on

7:13

underground. At

7:16

this time of the

7:16

year, and generally during the whole year, what

7:18

what kind of interaction is happening there?

7:22

Well, throughout the year,

7:25

those soil organisms and things that

7:27

are living there are interfacing and interacting

7:29

with the rest of the soil environment,

7:31

which includes those plant roots. And

7:34

so those plant roots often provide

7:36

a food source or a carbon source for

7:38

those items that are are those organisms that are

7:40

living in the soil. And so there's a

7:43

lot of interplay back and forth. So

7:45

even though it may be cold, even though we may not

7:47

see plants growing on the

7:48

surface, there's always something going on

7:50

down there below ground. Mhmm. And

7:52

this time of the year, what's happening

7:54

with the soil? Is it is it rest thing or

7:56

is it getting active?

7:58

Never resting. Always active.

8:01

Of course, things are more active when when it's

8:03

warm, you know, just like us. You know,

8:05

if it's if it's no one outside. I'm not moving

8:07

very fast. But certainly in the

8:09

summer, when it's warmed up, we are so

8:11

things are are slowed down a little bit because

8:13

we have our reduced temperatures because we're just coming

8:15

out of

8:15

winter. But always active. Mhmm.

8:18

Always active. Yeah. We I was I was trying

8:20

to theme this hour about resiliency,

8:22

Laura. Tell me about planting native

8:24

plants. Is that super important

8:27

to the resiliency of your garden since

8:29

these species are already adapted

8:31

to your area?

8:34

Right. That's super important. Also,

8:36

it's best to get locally native

8:38

plants partly because as

8:40

we just heard, the soil is

8:42

so important. And when we get

8:44

them grown locally, those

8:48

plants will thrive better in

8:50

the low all soil with the

8:52

particular

8:53

microorganisms that soil

8:56

has. But plants

8:58

that we need

8:59

to let me ask you, what's the difference between

9:01

local and native plants then?

9:04

Well, some people consider a

9:06

native plant to be any plant

9:09

native to North America rather

9:11

than getting, you know, Japanese

9:13

honeysuckle or something. But

9:15

locally native is

9:18

really important because some plants

9:20

that are local in

9:22

one place in America become

9:25

invasive. In other

9:27

places, Mesquite in Florida,

9:30

Black Locust taking over

9:33

habitat in areas where it

9:35

wasn't originally part

9:37

of the ecosystem

9:41

and also the locally native

9:43

plants are the particular,

9:46

you know, over time even within

9:49

a species, plants evolve. And

9:51

so the ones that are local

9:54

are the ones that are

9:56

best adapted to our yards.

9:59

Is it possible to go to your nursery

10:02

and find something hyper local

10:04

that really is about your neighborhood?

10:08

It all depends. The

10:10

local nursery. Some of them

10:12

are very much focused on

10:14

people who want to grow food

10:17

in their gardens or flowers,

10:19

and some are more focused on

10:22

the native plants that are part

10:24

of the local actional

10:27

ecosystem. And so you have

10:29

to be careful in finding

10:31

out which garden, which clubs

10:34

in your or

10:36

county are most focused

10:38

on those sorts of things. And you'll

10:40

get lots of advice from

10:43

gardeners and derasteries that

10:45

are focused on the

10:48

native plants. That's a big

10:50

movement right now. So my

10:52

book has one organization per

10:55

state and province

10:58

that tells you know, that is good

11:00

for that, but you have to get

11:02

down as close to your

11:05

backyard. As you

11:06

can, as far as local. Lucy,

11:08

you know, speaking of flowers and ornamentals

11:11

and fruits and veggies, should we separate

11:13

them in different

11:14

gardens? I know a lot of people do that. I certainly

11:16

do that. You

11:18

can do that, but you can also integrate them

11:20

all into one space. A lot of edibles are

11:22

gorgeous in the landscape. And Swiss

11:25

chard brings beautiful color and texture,

11:27

you know, strawberries, you

11:29

can snub right in and people don't even notice that

11:31

you're growing edibles or they're actually

11:33

improving the beauty of your

11:34

landscape. So I think you can do both. I

11:37

think

11:37

you're very well. Yeah. I I think I'm gonna

11:39

do that this year. I know I'm starting my seeds

11:41

now, hoping that I'm getting

11:43

a few sprouts coming

11:44

up. And

11:46

Yeah. Something not have enough space just to

11:48

lay out a vegetable garden in full sun, but

11:50

they can

11:50

tuck, you know, some lettuce

11:53

and greens things into their fundamental

11:55

landscape in the sun and get get

11:57

double double

11:58

bang. That's a great idea. Let let let me

12:01

give out our number because we're gonna take a break and

12:03

then go right to the phones. 8447248255844

12:08

Citox, and you can also tweet us

12:10

at Sci Fry talking about gardening

12:13

with Laura Erickson, author of a

12:15

hundred plants to feed the birds, turn your

12:17

home garden into a healthy bird habitat,

12:19

Doctor Tiffany Carter, USDA

12:22

based in Lincoln, Nebraska. She's a research

12:24

soil scientist, doctor Lucy

12:26

Bradley, a horticult Trist, an extension

12:29

specialist that's North Carolina State

12:31

University and Raleigh, stay

12:33

with us. Give us a call 8447248255

12:37

or tweet us at sci

12:39

fi. We'll be right back after this break.

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14:04

Listen wherever you get podcasts.

14:09

This is Science Friday. I am IraFLETO. We're

14:12

talking this hour about how to plant a happy,

14:14

healthy garden that will survive

14:16

the throes of climate change.

14:18

With my guests Laura Erickson, author

14:20

of a hundred plants to feed the birds,

14:23

doctor Tiffany Carter, USDA based

14:25

in Lincoln, Nebraska, doctor Lucy

14:28

Bradley, based in North Carolina State

14:30

University. And Raleigh, our number

14:32

8447248255.

14:35

And Tom in

14:35

Gainesville, Florida has a question

14:37

I want to talk about also. Hi, Tom. Up to

14:40

Science Friday. Hey,

14:42

thank you for taking my call. I've

14:44

been gardening for about twenty five years

14:46

and in lot of organic matter,

14:48

but I've also been tilling and recently

14:50

reading some information about tilling

14:53

may not be good as we thought

14:55

it used to be for this

14:56

oil, and I'd wanted to see if the, like,

15:00

that question could be addressed. Good question.

15:02

That Dr. Carter, I'm gonna direct this at Yolked

15:04

because I know you're a soil scientist. And

15:06

I I faced this the other day. We went out.

15:08

We had fifty degree weather. And I

15:10

took my hoe and I went into my garden

15:13

bed and started pulling up the soil

15:15

and then remembered talking about how they

15:17

say try not to till the soil

15:19

because you're gonna all the interaction of

15:22

all those bugs in there?

15:23

Yes. So, yes,

15:26

research has shown us that there are actually several

15:28

things that we can do to really manage our soil

15:31

2 make sure that we're maintaining its health.

15:34

There are four key principles of soil health that

15:36

we really, really need to keep in mind as we are preparing

15:39

our ourselves for gardening and growing seasons.

15:42

First, maximize living roots

15:45

by keeping some sort of living crops and plants

15:47

in the oil as long as possible. Secondly,

15:50

minimize your soil disturbance. Tilling

15:53

for example is something that

15:55

does disturb our soils breaks up our

15:57

soil aggregates, breaks up our

16:00

fungal high fee that have created a network

16:02

to actually help some of those nutrients

16:04

and things move to our plants. Third,

16:07

we wanna maximize our biodiversity. So

16:10

a little bit earlier, you guys were talking about, you

16:12

know, mixing in different crops and

16:14

edibles. So definitely planting diverse

16:16

crops. And finally, making

16:18

sure that we keep that soil covered. Bear

16:21

soil is not our friend. Mhmm. And so

16:23

always having something to cover it, whether it's

16:25

a crop or cover crop residue

16:28

from last year, mulch, something like

16:30

that. Those are the main things that

16:32

we'll we'll really make sure that that garden stays

16:34

healthy and sustainable, not just for

16:36

now, but for later as well. So if I'm planting

16:38

seeds in my garden, I should not

16:40

create a big row digging my hoe

16:42

in and dragging it to create a

16:44

trough. I should place each seat

16:46

one at a time be pushing it into the ground?

16:49

Not necessarily. You know, when I say

16:52

minimize the soil disturbance, that doesn't mean

16:54

that there won't be any disturbed

16:55

events. It's just those that are going

16:57

through and and tilling things, you know, often

17:00

and

17:00

mixing

17:00

things all the time. I see. Tom, does that

17:02

answer your question? Yeah.

17:04

I think that does. Yeah. Because I would normally

17:07

put manure in and try to chill it in, but think

17:09

what I'll do is just put it between the rows

17:11

now and use that for the next the next

17:13

Steven.

17:14

Alright. Thank you.

17:15

Can I just tell you

17:16

how wonderful it is when the best answer

17:18

is easy? I just love that.

17:22

Well, lot of stuff a fiz easy, isn't it?

17:24

Exactly.

17:25

Yeah. Let let speaking of easy, let let's

17:27

go to the next caller. Let's go to a Laurie

17:30

in Orange Park, Florida. Hi, Laurie.

17:33

Wow. Hello. I can't believe you

17:35

answered my call. Hi. Go

17:38

ahead. First of all,

17:40

III wanna say, I love

17:42

love love you. I listen to your show

17:44

while I'm working in my garden. 2,

17:47

to your podcast. So I thank you so

17:50

much. This is

17:52

fantastic for me because I am a

17:54

home home gardener and a

17:56

couple of just little quick questions

17:58

and I'll get off the air. The

18:00

first one I mentioned to the

18:03

nice lady that answered my call

18:05

was that I live in zone

18:07

nine a, which is Northeast

18:09

Florida. And with the

18:11

climate change, is getting more and more

18:14

difficult to determine

18:17

or plan out my garden,

18:19

not knowing when the cool

18:21

weather is gonna stop for cool weather

18:23

crops like my collards and,

18:26

you know, turnips and beaks

18:28

that have versus my hot

18:30

weather crops. I mean, they're they're

18:32

blending now and they're they're not growing,

18:35

I guess, at the speed that the

18:37

seed people think they good,

18:39

so my harvest dates are off. And

18:43

the other little short question since you

18:45

have a a soil person there,

18:47

how often can you reuse container

18:50

soil without just adding

18:52

more stuff to

18:53

it? Both good questions. Let me let me

18:55

go to Lucy Bradley, horticulturist.

18:58

And and this is the kind of question you would get as

19:00

an extension

19:01

specials. Would you not about how Absolutely.

19:04

How decide what to do? Yes.

19:07

And I wish there was a perfect answer. And the

19:09

challenge is that it's gonna

19:11

be different with different

19:12

years. Right? So some

19:13

so I think some of it is is being flexible.

19:15

Some of it's paying attention to the plants and noticing

19:18

how, like, when, you know, when

19:20

this plant leased out, a good indicator of

19:23

where you are as opposed to trying to memorize

19:25

a date on the calendar. Most

19:28

state pharmacology offices have

19:30

first and last frustate averages for

19:32

you, but that's still an average that you can

19:34

plan around. And, you know,

19:36

I it's not uncommon for me to have to replant

19:39

lettuce a couple of times because I just get really enthusiastic

19:41

when it starts to warm up and I put it out and then, you

19:43

know, if I don't get it covered, might have a freeze and replant.

19:45

So I do just have to be resilient yourself 2.

19:48

You know, and, you

19:50

know, and and just recognizing that that there's a lot of things you

19:52

can't control. So you do the best you can with the information

19:54

that you've got and composite

19:57

works.

19:57

Laurie, does that answer? Happy at all?

20:00

It does. Thank you so much. That's

20:03

And that's typically what what I'm boy.

20:05

Yeah. It's

20:06

hard. III, you know, I can understand

20:08

what you're saying. I'm trying to say, well, how

20:11

long is my cold season gonna last for

20:13

my cold weather

20:13

crops? If it's gonna get 2

20:15

warm and

20:15

they're gonna both. Right?

20:17

Right. Exactly.

20:18

Yeah. Okay. That's cool. Thanks for that question.

20:21

You like yeah. Go ahead. Because I just said,

20:23

one thing that you can do is 2 stagger your

20:25

planting. So if you if you replant,

20:27

you know, every two weeks that you don't, like, put in all your

20:30

lettuce at once, you put replant some

20:32

in a two week later and plant more in two 2 later and and

20:34

at least one of those planting hits it

20:35

right, you

20:36

know? Yeah. Do do do do plant

20:38

scientists understand this conundrum

20:40

and are they developing more

20:42

resilient, climate resilient plans?

20:46

I think plant scientists are learning

20:48

all the time and working on developing plants

20:51

to help meet our needs? Yes.

20:54

Okay. Thanks. Let's go to Mindy in

20:56

Akron, Ohio. I'm Mindy. Manila,

21:00

Hey there. Hey. I'm

21:03

I'm so excited. You you're taking my call.

21:06

And I have to say this show is just

21:08

warms my heart. You're kind of Beacon

21:10

to the choir here. I am a retired certified

21:13

organic vegetable farmer, and I'm

21:15

also very involved with the garden club of

21:17

America. And I

21:20

just wanted to kind

21:23

of announce and I'm

21:25

sure or maybe not your guests as

21:27

well as your list nurs 2 be aware that

21:30

we will have declared by

21:32

the end of probably April

21:34

this year, all fifty states there

21:37

will be a proclamation. Each

21:39

state will deem the month

21:41

of April, maybe not Alaska,

21:44

as national native plant months.

21:46

This will be a proclamation that will have to be

21:48

renewed every single year. But

21:50

nevertheless, again, it's just

21:52

a mass of effort on the part of this amazing

21:55

organization, the Garden Club of America, to

21:57

draw attention to the critical importance

22:00

of how having native plants everywhere

22:03

in our yards in

22:05

any possible location in

22:08

lieu of

22:10

invasive and non native.

22:12

So I heard your discussion about that

22:14

and just

22:15

wanted to announce that. Well, Mandy. Thank

22:18

you for sharing. You you heard it first

22:20

on Science Friday that

22:22

April's

22:22

going to be wonderful. Well, well, well,

22:24

thank you. Let let me get a reaction

22:26

from some of our guests. What do you think about

22:28

that? It's

22:30

pretty delightful.

22:34

Alright. So let's let's go.

22:37

Well, what what did you think about what

22:40

about the idea of planting

22:42

crops or, you know, staggering

22:44

the crops. That seems like an important thing

22:46

to do about out trying

22:48

to, you know, I I guess

22:50

average out the weather that we're going

22:52

through.

22:53

Yeah. It heads up your bets. Right? Yeah.

22:55

Let me okay. Let's let's go to the phones.

22:57

Because there are a lot of folks here. I'm looking

22:59

at these calls and say, wow, Jordan and

23:01

San Antonio. Hi. Welcome to Science Friday.

23:03

Hi. Yeah. So I just 2 know

23:06

Is there a genetically modified grass

23:08

out there? It's so dry

23:10

these days in San Antonio and South Texas.

23:13

Like a genetically modified grass that can

23:15

handle all this heat that you don't have the water

23:17

so much?

23:19

Good question. Maybe we should

23:21

10 Anybody anybody know that?

23:23

I mean, I would expect you'd be they'd be developing

23:26

that? I don't know enough about Charles

23:28

to give you AAAA noticable answer

23:30

to that, Jordan, but I'm sure there's people who are working

23:32

on on

23:34

breeding varieties that will do that.

23:36

Well, as long as we're talking about lawns, know,

23:38

I have noticed that Clover

23:41

is taking over my

23:42

lawn. And I have I

23:44

was thinking about it and saying, this is actually

23:46

pretty good. Why do I need

23:48

excellent. Yeah. Why is

23:50

that? Yeah. Because it makes your lawn

23:53

more diverse. So instead of having monoculture

23:55

of graph, you now have

23:58

something that's nitrogen fixing there that's going to

24:00

help feed the rest of your lawn. You have something that's going

24:02

to bloom and include pollinators. So

24:04

I'm a big fan of versed green

24:06

spaces as opposed to a

24:09

perfect lawn. I think we really need to redefine

24:11

what we that were beautiful when we're thinking

24:13

about that in terms of landscapes and stop

24:15

looking for perfection

24:16

and look for for holistic

24:19

beauty in the whole system.

24:21

Yeah.

24:21

And not only that, it the gross so low. You

24:23

don't have to mow it.

24:24

Yeah. It's beautiful. You

24:27

find poorly plumbers too. How cool is that?

24:29

Yeah. I started looking. I started looking.

24:31

But I was so happy to see the diversity

24:34

of the

24:34

clover, some tiny little leaves,

24:36

some big leaves? Yes. Yeah.

24:39

Yes. And and

24:40

it comes at

24:40

all different colors. You know, there's lots and lots

24:42

of wonderful things about Clover.

24:44

Speaking of, let's let's go to Houston, Tiffany.

24:46

Welcome to Science Friday. Hi.

24:49

Thank you for taking my call. So

24:52

I would like to start planning

24:54

edibles. However, I

24:57

am not sure about where

24:59

to start, and I would like to

25:01

be really good at it pretty quickly so

25:04

I can introduce another plant

25:06

the next season. Any

25:08

starting point that I won't

25:10

be wasteful 2 that grows so much

25:12

that I'm wasting more than eating

25:15

more. So any guidance on that will

25:17

be helpful. Also one little tidbit,

25:19

I work with children 2, so I'd like to share

25:21

those cities at a table at the lunch

25:23

table with the little ones I work with.

25:25

Well,

25:25

any thank you. Any one of our guests could answer that.

25:27

Who wants to jump in first? Lucy

25:30

2 Patty Laura? III

25:33

Go ahead. Well,

25:33

I would love to 2 jump

25:35

in and and and, Tiffany, that's

25:37

fantastic. I'm so glad you're interested in growing

25:39

at and I would encourage you to contact

25:42

your local cooperative extension office so

25:44

that you can get a list of varieties

25:46

that are well adapted to your area and you

25:48

can pick things that are likely to subscribe

25:51

for you. So you

25:53

can start by just planting

25:56

a few, you can start by planting annuals

25:58

and just sticking them 10, you can grow some perennials

26:01

that will come back again and again. There's

26:04

shrubs and trees that that you can do

26:06

it. But you don't have to do it all at once. You don't

26:08

have to, like, install an entire landscape. You

26:10

can just start sticking things in and just grow

26:12

it as you succeed. They

26:14

go, Tiffany. Good.

26:16

That's very helpful.

26:17

Good. Thank you. Good luck. Let

26:20

me ask 2 my guest Tiffany. How

26:22

does the soil health impact

26:25

the rest of the ecosystem beyond

26:27

the

26:27

garden? Does it talk underground

26:29

the soil? Yes. So

26:32

I I wanna throw in here, you know, when we

26:35

make sure that we're taking care of the soil,

26:37

we really are not

26:40

just focusing on the soil health and the conservation

26:42

of it, but we're also really caring for the rest

26:44

of the ecosystem, which includes those

26:47

organisms and other things that we don't

26:49

see that are interacting below ground.

26:50

Mhmm.

26:51

So that's that's very important to

26:53

to keep in mind that, you know, just because we don't

26:55

see it top doesn't mean that there aren't things

26:57

going on beneath the

26:59

surface. Everything is interconnected, everything

27:02

is interacting.

27:03

And so that's why it's just really so important

27:05

that that we're paying attention to

27:07

to those soil health principles.

27:09

And the soil, as I say, let me just remind

27:11

everybody that this is Science Friday from WNLC's

27:14

studios. And what's

27:16

really fascinating about the soil is

27:18

that the soil communicates with plants

27:20

among each

27:21

other. Right? Yes.

27:23

Absolutely. How does it do that?

27:25

Absolutely. So

27:27

as I mentioned a little bit earlier, those

27:30

plant roots are really doing a good job of providing

27:32

our soil organisms a food source.

27:35

Mhmm. So the carbon that that

27:37

those roots are are kind of greeting there

27:40

ends up being good for what's living

27:42

there beneath the

27:43

ground, which is why it's so important

27:45

that we're we're taking care of the entire system.

27:48

That's great. Great answer. Let me see if I can get

27:51

a phone call in before we go to the

27:53

break. Let's go to John in

27:54

Tulsa, Oklahoma. Hi, John. Hey,

27:57

so good to talk with you all and thanks for taking

27:59

me my call. I I love to have my

28:01

my little garden. You

28:03

know, I I loved raise our tomato

28:06

plants that we had a brutal

28:09

drought last year. It was so hot and dry.

28:12

And many of us weren't able

28:14

to get a good harvest

28:16

of tomatoes. Even if we watered it was just

28:19

they, you know, some Some

28:21

things I don't know. Some things I don't know how, you

28:23

know, to keep the water right on plants. It's

28:25

the but the blossoms fall off. You lose your

28:27

tomatoes. So something about how to

28:29

water and really hot situations that

28:31

would be helpful. But also have

28:33

question about now we're in our

28:36

pre spring getting our beds red or

28:39

what's coming? Is there something I can be

28:41

doing to fortify my bed right now

28:43

or where I'm going to plant my tomatoes that

28:45

will help me have better success

28:47

in adverse hate conditions?

28:50

That's good question. Lucy

28:52

Tiffany, any suggestions? What

28:56

to

28:57

do with it?

28:58

I'm sorry. Go ahead.

29:01

This is Lucy, and and I would encourage you to water

29:03

the soil instead of of your plant.

29:05

So don't spray the water

29:07

up on the plant itself, but put the water on

29:09

the soil. And you're

29:12

right. When it's really hot and dry, the

29:14

plant itself gets desiccated. If

29:16

it's really hot, the pollen and the flowers

29:19

is is not viable. So

29:22

when it's really hot and dry, tomatoes

29:26

are a challenge.

29:26

Yeah. They need a 2 of

29:27

Well, I think I'm saying good luck to you, John.

29:32

Well, maybe you could What about it? What about

29:34

starting them indoors? So they give them a healthy

29:37

start.

29:37

Right? Grow them under lights indoors

29:39

is what I'm trying to do this year to

29:42

get a healthy That's great. And the the the

29:44

thing about that too is you can get an early start.

29:46

Right? So you can start on six to eight weeks and

29:49

inside before they would be able to go

29:50

out, and then you get a jump on the season

29:53

before it gets really hot. So that's a great

29:55

strategy. You know, but but what

29:57

happens though is you think the season is is

29:59

over. Right? Winter is over, and then you put it

30:01

you put it

30:02

out. And in Oklahoma, this big no storm

30:04

comes. Yes.

30:07

Yes. Yes. It's hard.

30:09

You know, have your frostcloth ready to protect

30:12

them? Oh,

30:13

I hope, John, we gave you some good ideas

30:16

there.

30:17

Well, thank you. appreciate it. I appreciate

30:19

the opportunity. Thank you so much. Yeah.

30:22

We have to take a break. But

30:24

before we go to the break, Laura, I want you to

30:26

mention some of the hunks a hundred plants to

30:28

feed the

30:29

birds. Give me five plants that we should be

30:31

planting to feed the birds. Oak

30:33

trees if you live anywhere

30:36

where your soil will support them. I

30:38

live in a neighborhood in Duluth where there aren't

30:40

folks, some

30:42

sort of pine tree, another

30:45

conifer,

30:46

Juniper, or white cedar,

30:48

things like that. Smaller

30:51

plants, there's all kinds of

30:55

composite flowers that

30:58

feed gold finches and are native,

31:00

and lots of other little birds and

31:02

support insects.

31:04

Alright. We're gonna come back after a break and

31:06

talk lot more about gardening. Our number

31:08

8447248255.

31:12

We're talking with Laura Eric in,

31:14

doctor Tiffany Carter, doctor Lucy

31:16

Bradley. And you can also tweet

31:18

us at SciFi. Lots of tweets coming

31:20

in, lots of interest, of course, is

31:22

spring around the corner. Stay with us. We'll be

31:24

right back after the short break.

31:27

Support for Science Friday also comes

31:29

from Schmidt futures, a philanthropic

31:32

initiative founded by Eric and Wendy

31:34

Schmidt.

31:36

This is Science Friday. I'm IraPlato, a

31:39

brief program note, citizen science

31:41

month is coming up this April and it's

31:43

a great opportunity to do real

31:45

science anytime, anywhere

31:48

and we have got some fun free projects

31:50

ready to go and a series of talks

31:53

to get you started. So checkouts science

31:55

Friday dot com slash citizen

31:58

science. That's one word. Citizen science for

32:00

information. Science Friday dot

32:02

com slash citizen science.

32:04

This is how we're talking about gardening, how to

32:07

plant the climate resilient garden.

32:09

Our number 8447248255.

32:12

You can also tweet us at scythe

32:14

Fry lots of gardening questions. Laura,

32:17

it's it's easy to see why a garden

32:20

can benefit birds. Right? It gives them

32:22

food a place to guests, some

32:24

water. But what about the

32:26

birds? Can what can the birds do

32:28

for your garden? Well,

32:31

in my yard, we used to have

32:33

a ranch as Barry Patch when we moved

32:35

in. And after maybe

32:37

ten or fifteen years here, it

32:40

started dying out from some fungal

32:42

infection. But meanwhile, the

32:45

purple fintas who had been picking out

32:47

on the raspberries, the ones that

32:49

were harder for us to get planted

32:51

a whole new bed for

32:53

us. So that was pretty cool.

32:55

That is pretty cool. Okay. But hummingbirds

32:58

do a lot of pollinating for

33:00

the plants that have evolved to be

33:03

hummingbird attractors. The

33:06

they those plants depend the hummingbirds

33:09

2- Mhmm.

33:11

-- to pollidate them. Blue jays are

33:13

credited with starting

33:15

up the oak forests as

33:18

glaciers retreated so

33:20

that the oak forests advanced with

33:23

the retreating glaciers much more

33:25

quickly than trees with

33:27

windborne seeds. They they

33:30

the oak trees got an edge. Thanks.

33:32

The blue jays. Yeah.

33:33

And and the blue jays are the other birds, they

33:35

might help pick away at the insects and

33:38

they gone.

33:39

Right. And the blue jays, you know, they

33:41

plant they hide all these

33:44

acorns here and

33:45

there, and they go back and take a bunch

33:47

of them, but they don't need all of them. And

33:49

that means some of them will be

33:51

replanting and keeping young oaks

33:54

in the areas -- Thinking

33:56

of that house that had seven hundred pounds of acorns

33:58

in Oh, yeah.

34:02

God. Laura, before give me a couple

34:04

of tips of how to grow a bird friendly

34:06

garden. What should I be playing? Thing?

34:10

Well, it's very complicated

34:12

depending on where you

34:13

live, what your like,

34:15

I live in Duluth, Minnesota, and

34:17

my neighborhood has horrible

34:20

clay soil, so some plants

34:22

don't grow here that grow in other

34:24

neighborhoods 2. You have to be

34:26

aware of those little things. You

34:29

have to think about what birds you

34:31

want in your yard. And you have to

34:33

think about your yard. If

34:35

you of a small yard. You don't wanna

34:37

plant a Willow where the roots

34:39

are gonna be getting into your pipes.

34:42

You have to think about so many different

34:44

things. And I tried to touch on all

34:47

those things in the book because

34:49

it was a lot of stuff I hadn't thought

34:51

about it until I started

34:52

researching. Alright. We'll get we'll get a copy

34:55

of hundred plants to feed the birds. Let's

34:57

let's go to the phones and see,

34:59

well, there's so many interesting phone calls.

35:02

Let's go let's talk about this that everybody

35:04

wants to talk about, and that is pesticides. Christine

35:07

and Steamboat Springs, Colorado. Hi, Christine.

35:12

Christina, you there? Hello. Hey there.

35:14

Go ahead. I'm here. Thank you.

35:17

My question is, I

35:19

haven't been able to get this

35:21

question answered from our extension

35:24

agent in Colorado. We

35:26

have thirty five acres of dry land,

35:29

alfalfa. We are required

35:31

by the state to kill all invasive

35:34

leads, you cannot

35:36

spray alfalfa nor

35:39

do I want to. I don't like using

35:41

poisonous herb besides and -- Mhmm.

35:44

-- pesticide. How

35:46

can I kill these weeds that I'm required

35:48

to kill?

35:50

That's a great question. Lucy,

35:52

can you Okay. So what

35:54

kind of weeds are are you trying to kill?

35:56

Are they annuals? Are they perennials? Are they

35:59

both? They are

36:01

-- we have had years and years

36:04

of drought here. So

36:05

the weeds have just taken over sir.

36:09

You're well. So I would

36:11

say always the best place to start is

36:13

looking at how do you have your crop thrive

36:16

because if your crop is doing really well, then

36:18

it will outcompete the weeds and you don't have to

36:20

worry as much about managing them.

36:23

I'm not a field crop expert, so I don't want to

36:25

give you any it's about what pesticides

36:28

you should use. And I'm sorry you didn't get a

36:30

good answer when you your

36:32

local folks. But if you want to leave your

36:35

contact information with the folks at

36:37

NPR, I'd be happy to follow-up with you individually

36:39

and put you in touch with some folks.

36:42

I would appreciate that

36:43

so much. Right.

36:44

We're here at Science Friday, not NPR. So

36:46

we'll be happy

36:47

with Beyond Finance.

36:48

Sorry. One more thing. We also

36:50

run a dog rescue so I ever

36:53

use anything poisonous on

36:55

the ground. So

36:57

it's a it's a it's a double whammy.

37:00

I I'm required to do

37:01

it, but I don't want you. Alright. I'm gonna put you

37:03

on hold and and and you

37:05

can talk to our producer who will try to get you

37:07

some and we'll get back 2 you with some information.

37:10

So yeah.

37:12

You know, this is this is the the thing

37:14

we don't talk about much is how to 2

37:16

keep weeds out of your garden without having to

37:18

use pesticides. You know?

37:21

It's it's something that

37:23

people

37:25

Don't wanna do, and I don't blame them.

37:28

Yeah. I think it you know, one of the things that's staying

37:30

ahead of game. So if

37:33

you can remove weeds

37:35

before they flower and go to seed,

37:37

then you cut down tremendously on

37:39

population for the next year. That's one of the challenges

37:42

with weeds, most of them are outstanding

37:44

at reproduction. So if you have one flower that

37:46

goes to seeds and you got millions that you're dealing

37:48

with next year. Mhmm. So making

37:50

sure that the plants that you have

37:53

are set up to thrive using, you

37:56

know, ground cover or mulch

37:58

to make it harder for the weeds to germinate

38:00

and and come up

38:01

removing

38:01

them when they're younger, the smaller they are, the easier

38:04

they get out. Tiffany, let's talk about

38:06

the soil because I really love to talk

38:08

about the soil. I wanna talk more about it.

38:11

How do you know, if you have

38:13

good soil or not, and what is

38:15

good soil?

38:18

You know, III first

38:20

wanna start by because I love soil

38:22

so much. I love all of the

38:23

soil. And so I

38:26

I think all of it is good.

38:28

There are things kind of as I mentioned

38:30

before that we can do to to really

38:32

care for the soil and make sure that

38:34

our soil is sustained

38:37

in a way that we can get what we need from it

38:40

while also making sure the soil is is okay.

38:43

Soil is really complex because it

38:45

is a living and breathing ecosystem, you

38:47

know, making sure that we're caring for the entire

38:51

body from not just

38:53

what we're planting in there, but also

38:55

what things we know are living below ground

38:57

and interacting below ground. You

38:59

know, that's that's the key there. Mhmm.

39:02

And, yeah, man, imagine that

39:04

you should get your soil tested.

39:06

Right? To know Yes. -- what would

39:08

you be testing for? You

39:11

know, you're testing for just

39:13

kind of making sure that you have created the

39:15

right environment

39:17

for the species that are surviving there. So

39:19

you're wanting to know pH

39:21

levels, maybe some of the chemistry that's

39:23

going on there in the soil. Depending on

39:26

what type of plants you're you're

39:28

growing, you may need more and more

39:30

or less assistance from

39:33

you know, your local extension agents

39:36

or or NRS. You know, NRS

39:38

does offer a variety of resources that

39:40

can assist with with figuring out

39:43

how to best care for your particular soil.

39:45

You know, of course, me here in Nebraska,

39:47

I'm at the National Center, the National

39:49

Sewell Survey Center sir. But we

39:51

have act you have access to

39:54

several different resources on

39:56

our website, nrcs dot

39:58

usd a dot gov that can really

40:00

lead people in the right direction for making sure

40:02

that they're choosing the right

40:04

things,

40:04

make sure they're getting the right soil tests, and make

40:06

sure they have all the right 2, to make sure that

40:08

you have a thriving soil

40:10

system. Let me go to you, Dr. Bradley,

40:12

because you're at an extension Yeah. Especially,

40:14

you are an extension specialist in North Carolina

40:17

Do people bring in

40:18

soil? Do you encourage them to bring in soil

40:20

for a test? Absolutely.

40:23

They take it to to the my

40:25

Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture business,

40:28

oil test for

40:28

them, and then their extension agents can help them

40:30

interpret what that means for them.

40:32

How do you how do dig up a sample

40:34

to bring it in? What

40:37

do you want to do is look at you know,

40:39

where you want to grow and and take sample

40:41

samples from around that and mix them together

40:43

and then

40:46

put that in the box to send and get it tested

40:48

so you have kind of an aggregate to look

40:50

at. And I want to throw in just

40:52

2 all the great things that Dr.

40:55

Carter was saying is the importance of thinking

40:57

about what might be the risks in the soil. A lot

40:59

of folks who are growing in urban air really want

41:01

to think about how is that soil used before

41:03

you decided to make a garden

41:04

there. Mhmm.

41:05

know, and and what kinds of contaminants could be

41:07

in the soil. There there's a lot of good information

41:09

out there to help you identify what, you

41:11

know, based on how the soil was used previously, what might

41:14

be some things that you would wanna consider, what you might

41:16

need to test

41:16

for, and what are ways that you can minimize the

41:18

risk ask from regarding those

41:21

locations. Very good point

41:23

because could have been a battery factory there

41:25

or an asbestos plant. There's something

41:27

in a brown sphere in an urban

41:29

garden. Right? Right. It could have been an

41:31

old house that has lead paint or lead

41:33

plumbing. So there's there's there's there's

41:35

all sorts of things to think

41:36

about. And it's really important to know how the

41:38

land was used previously so that you can can

41:40

make informed decisions. Mhmm.

41:43

And to 2 get the sample, how deep do you

41:45

dig? Or what what do you do exactly? Is it two

41:47

inches? Six inches down? Yes.

41:49

Six inches? Yes.

41:52

Six inches probably. Okay. lot

41:54

of people looking for gardening. Let's go to

41:57

LASLOW in South Bend, Indiana.

42:00

Yes. So whoa. Hi there. Go

42:03

ahead. I have a

42:04

question about about for about

42:06

three weeks in April to the middle

42:08

of May every year. I get a bunch about

42:10

three or four pounds of morale mushrooms growing

42:13

in

42:13

my yard. Are you lucky? Well,

42:15

that's how fully done 2 the fold.

42:17

Yeah. I had no idea, and

42:19

they're so tasty. But but how

42:21

how can I get more of them? I guess they're very

42:23

difficult to grow. The

42:25

grow we're still right now, the street sells them for about

42:27

forty or fifty

42:28

dollars. I I don't even know

42:29

pound or something. So you should be selling them

42:31

to them. Right? Yeah.

42:34

Well, rest told me that

42:36

if I could grow, like, five pounds, but they did

42:38

super

42:38

good. I don't wanna sell it. You

42:40

know what I mean?

42:40

For more than two weeks a year.

42:42

Yeah. I didn't do it. Is there any way

42:44

I can spread the spores or or

42:47

do anything because they can keep to grow in one specific

42:49

spot? I think it's under some kind

42:52

trees or something? And and under an old tree? Mhmm.

42:56

Good

42:56

good question. I I don't have an answer. Maybe

42:59

Lucy, do you have an answer for that?

43:01

I would say contact an expert in mushrooms

43:04

and fungi because --

43:05

Yeah. --

43:06

I I did not have an answer to worry about it.

43:08

Yeah. Figure out what you're doing. Figure out what you're

43:10

doing in that spot and do more of it.

43:13

There you go. Yeah. I think I'm just lucky.

43:16

Well, luck luck is pretty good. Thank

43:18

for calling. Thank you very much.

43:20

See you. Take care. This is Science Friday

43:22

from WNYC Studios. Yes,

43:25

luck will go just so far sometimes

43:28

until you want to fix

43:30

some more. Oh, here's a Twitter question

43:32

from Lee. He says, I wanted

43:34

I have worked hard to naturalize my yard.

43:37

The natural plants, particularly making it

43:39

appealing to birds, but it seem to

43:41

be always battling urban, living

43:43

deer. Oh, yes. Eating me

43:45

out of house and home, what can I do to minimize

43:48

destroying my hard work by

43:50

deer? Welcome to the

43:52

rest of the world with the deer problem.

43:55

Yeah. Any -- Yeah. -- aid. Do we

43:57

blood meal, all those kinds of things, those

43:59

suggestions? Did did do they

44:01

work? I

44:03

think all of them are contingent upon how

44:05

you know, what what's the level of the deer population

44:08

in your area and how hungry are they? There's

44:10

lots of plants you can look up that are

44:13

less attractive to deer, but if they're really

44:14

hungry, they'll eat most of those.

44:16

Your your best bet is is exclusion.

44:19

So if you can fence them out -- Right.

44:22

-- or or fence off plants if you want to protect,

44:24

that's that's, you

44:26

know, you can be your best

44:27

not. You know, I I know the deer are there

44:30

because the the tops of my lilies

44:32

are gone. Oh, the top.

44:34

They love they love they loveily. Maddy

44:36

and Barryville, Arkansas. Hi, welcome

44:38

to Science Friday. Oh,

44:40

hi. I live in

44:43

a a senior citizen community

44:45

and it's a deaf to cool the sack. It's only

44:48

about a block off the main highway, but

44:50

it's completely surrounded with forest.

44:55

And I have a lot of

44:57

critters out here, rabbits and

44:59

raccoons and possums, gung and squirrels,

45:02

So I've been feeding them.

45:04

I just throw stuff out that I don't

45:06

eat chopped up in in some carrots

45:08

and in of strawberries and

45:10

lettuce and different stuff for

45:12

them. And they

45:15

don't always eat everything. They don't like

45:17

the asparagus and their much.

45:19

But I'm wondering if this also

45:21

helps to help the soil, to

45:25

feed the soil because at you

45:28

know, if the plants will

45:32

begin to mulch or whatever, I don't

45:33

compost, I just throw out

45:36

the fresh step that I'm eating

45:38

that I can eat. I'd see if I can get an answer

45:40

to a quick quick answer. Should

45:43

she should she be throwing that a fatter comp

45:45

you better off 2 be composting

45:47

it, right, before you

45:49

throw it out.

45:52

I I I'll step in there.

45:54

Yeah.

45:54

Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go

45:55

ahead. And I was gonna

45:57

say, you know, of course, compost is a good thing.

46:00

But, you know, small amounts of lettuce,

46:02

carrots, strawberries, they shouldn't hurt

46:05

too much just because, you know, we still

46:07

are adding that that carbon source and that

46:09

food source to the soil there.

46:10

Yeah. So just the couple little little

46:12

things that the critters leave, they

46:15

shouldn't hurt the the the that's hurt on

46:17

there too. That's about all the time we have have

46:19

to say goodbye. Thank you both for all of

46:21

you, all three of you, Laura Erickson, doctor Tiffany

46:23

Carter, doctor Lucie Bradley,

46:25

for taking 2 to have to be with us to take lots of

46:28

great questions. Lots of great answers

46:30

about the soil and gardening. So thank you all

46:32

for taking time to be with us

46:33

today. Thank

46:35

you so

46:36

much for having us. Before we go,

46:38

I'm sure some of you who listen to this

46:40

hour on gardening may have been

46:42

stung by a bee or a wasp

46:44

while working in your own garden. Right?

46:46

But probably have not been stung

46:49

as often or by as many

46:51

different insects as 2 Justin

46:54

O Schmitt. Schmitt was stung

46:56

nearly a thousand times by nearly

46:58

every manner of bee, wasp,

47:01

cornered, and ant, all in the name

47:03

of science. Schmidt died last

47:05

month in Tucson, Arizona, but

47:07

he left behind extensive work,

47:09

chronic the pain that stings can

47:11

cause to humans and other

47:13

animals. And he talked with me in twenty

47:15

sixteen about his book, the

47:17

thing of the wild. The reason I've

47:19

been doing this is trying to understand the

47:22

evolution of social behavior. You

47:24

know, we're a social species, but

47:26

so are many all ants and many

47:28

wasps and many bees. And

47:31

the problem they have is

47:33

how do you protect a whole bunch

47:35

of nice succulent a yummy brood

47:37

or honey in the case of bees from

47:39

big nasty predators like us

47:41

or even other

47:42

animals. They wanna eat you.

47:45

And my hypothesis was the only

47:47

way you could do that was through

47:50

an effect 2 defense and the only affected

47:52

defense you had was a sting.

47:55

He also created the entertaining Schmidt

47:57

Sting Pain Index. Which

48:00

attempts to describe how these things

48:02

feel with more nuanced

48:04

than a numerical

48:05

scale. Here he describes this thing

48:07

of the fearsome bullet ant. The

48:10

bullet ant hurts like a burning

48:12

amber that was just rammed into

48:15

you. Unfortunately, it doesn't

48:17

just last two minutes It it

48:19

goes into this crescendo as if somebody's

48:21

turning on a blowtorch and burning

48:23

you, and then they kinda turn it off and

48:25

let it recede for a little bit, then they

48:27

turn and on again. Imagine

48:29

this going for twelve to thirty six

48:31

hours. Justin O'Shmit, known

48:33

as the king of ding was

48:35

seventy five. And that's about it for

48:38

this program. If you missed any part of it, we'd

48:40

like to hear it again, subscribe to our podcasts

48:42

or ask your smart speaker to play science

48:44

Friday. You can say hi to us on social

48:47

media. Sure. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,

48:49

or email us the classic way. A

48:51

scifrei at science friday

48:54

dot com. Have a great weekend. We'll

48:56

see you next

48:56

week. I'm Myra Fredo.

48:59

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