1:10

I think the strength I

1:12

have, from being in this business

1:14

for decades, is that I've

1:17

seen things go awry. Good

1:19

things get interpreted incorrectly.

1:22

I mean, the Science of Reading has that potential.

1:27

This is Susan Lambert. And welcome to Science

1:29

of Reading: The Podcast, from Amplify, where

1:32

the Science of Reading lives. What

1:35

is reading comprehension? How

1:38

can background knowledge be built, rather

1:40

than taught? And how can vocabulary

1:42

be developed most effectively in

1:45

the classroom? These are some of the questions

1:48

that Dr. Sharon Vaughn explores on

1:50

this fascinating episode of the

1:54

podcast. Dr. Sharon Vaughn is the Manuel

1:57

J. Justiz Endowed Chair in

2:00

Education and executive director of The Meadow

2:02

Center for Preventing Educational Risk

2:04

at The University of Texas,

2:07

Austin . She was also the lead author of the

2:10

What Works Clearinghouse Practice

2:12

Guide, "Providing Reading Interventions for

2:14

Students in Grades 4–9." For

2:17

those who may be unfamiliar, that

2:19

guide is full of grade information, which

2:21

we also discuss during this conversation.

2:25

And so without further ado , I'm thrilled

2:28

to share this conversation with

2:30

Dr. Sharon Vaughn. Well,

2:33

Dr. Sharon Vaughn, thank you for joining us on

2:35

today's episode.

2:37

You're welcome! Thank you for having me on

2:39

this episode.

2:40

Before we hop into the first question, I

2:42

do wanna highlight the

2:45

What Works Clearinghouse Practice Guide.

2:47

So the IES Practice Guide.

2:49

I think this is the most recent one that you

2:51

supported, all about providing reading interventions

2:54

for students in grades four through nine. This

2:57

is a really important practice guide. And I

2:59

bet you've gotten great feedback on it.

3:01

I so like that you said that, because

3:04

I think it is a really important practice

3:06

guide too. And so you

3:08

having said it opens the door for me to

3:10

say, in the audience, if you

3:12

have not looked at this practice guide, it's

3:15

on the IES website. And it

3:17

is about teaching students with

3:19

reading difficulties in grades four to nine.

3:21

And here's the cool thing, not only

3:24

does it list the high

3:27

priority practices that have

3:29

been proven, are scientifically

3:32

based , if you will, to improve outcomes.

3:34

It also has really cool

3:37

examples of how to do it in your classroom,

3:39

with real lessons. So dig

3:41

in! And not only learn what they

3:43

are, but how to do it.

3:45

Yeah , and nobody will actually have to go out and look

3:47

for it. We'll link our listeners in the show notes

3:50

to this practice guide. And I

3:52

love that you let me talk about it, because I think

3:55

the practice guides are underutilized. But

3:57

I found this one particularly helpful.

3:59

So, thank you for helping to craft that guide.

4:03

So, let's just talk a little bit about

4:05

reading comprehension, and what reading

4:07

comprehension really is. And

4:11

you have a quote that I absolutely

4:13

love. I have carried it with me since the

4:15

first time I heard you say it, and I can't remember where

4:17

that was. But the quote is,

4:19

"You can't teach reading comprehension. You

4:22

can't teach reading comprehension. It's

4:25

an outcome." Can you tell us about

4:27

that?

4:28

Oh gosh! Thank you so much for

4:30

saying that, because I think that,

4:32

you know, especially around the Science of

4:34

Reading, many people are sort of

4:36

obsessed with the idea that the Science of Reading

4:39

is phonics . And they are like, "Oh

4:41

my gosh!" That gives them sort of

4:44

a justifiable cause against the Science

4:46

of Reading, because it isn't just phonics.

4:49

Well, of course it's

4:51

not <laugh>! However,

4:54

it is

4:58

quite defensively impossible to learn

5:00

to read if you cannot read

5:03

words. So if you wanna get to

5:06

comprehension, the most important thing you have to get

5:10

to is accurate

5:12

and efficient word-reading. And of

5:15

course the mechanism for getting to accurate and

5:17

efficient word-reading are things like phonemic awareness and

5:20

phonics. But, the point is, you have to be able to read these

5:23

words. And, here's the second thing, you have to know what

5:26

they mean. So, vocabulary is important. You

5:28

gotta know how to read 'em. You gotta know what they mean.

5:31

And those two developments work

5:34

together. And

5:36

then with adequate background

5:40

knowledge, comprehension comes for

5:43

free for the vast majority of

5:46

students. So, comprehension is

5:49

an outcome. And it's based on being

5:51

able to read words accurately, know what

5:54

they mean, have adequate background knowledge,

5:56

and also being able to make

5:58

inferences and not

6:01

check yourself when you go to

6:03

a text. For the most part, if we're

6:06

paying attention, if we can read words

6:08

efficiently, and know what they mean, and have background

6:10

knowledge, it yields comprehension.

6:13

And comprehension, when you try to teach

6:17

it independent of word-reading,

6:21

efficient word-reading, which some people think of as fluency

6:23

, vocabulary, and background

6:25

knowledge, you can't get there.

6:28

So if students can't read words, don't know what they mean, emphasizing

6:31

comprehension is just really

6:34

the wrong priority.

6:37

I think that's what I meant by that, Susan.

6:39

Well, it stuck with me a really long time.

6:41

And I think it's because I put myself back

6:43

in the classroom. And I'm sure other

6:46

classroom teachers are going to relate to this.

6:49

Do you know how often what we thought we

6:51

were doing was teaching comprehension? I'm

6:55

sure teachers can relate to that right now. We thought

6:57

we were teaching comprehension. And to hear

6:59

that, "Yes, there's other factors that can

7:01

influence it. And if these other factors

7:03

are in place, reading comprehension comes

7:05

for free." That's another great quote! I

7:08

think that's another Dr. Sharon Vaughn great

7:10

quote <laugh> that we're gonna put out there is

7:12

that if you do it right, reading comprehension

7:14

is free <laugh>.

7:16

Yeah! And all

7:18

of these strategies, like if you don't know how to

7:20

read words, there are not

7:23

enough comprehension strategies to get

7:25

you to comprehension. If

7:27

you don't know what the words mean,

7:29

you can teach me 27

7:32

comprehension strategies and my comprehension

7:34

will not improve. All I will do is be

7:36

confused by all these strategies you've taught me.

7:40

But if I have efficient word-reading, and

7:42

know what the words mean, and have background knowledge, then

7:45

things like main idea, and

7:48

summarization, and inferencing become

7:51

very meaningful tasks that

7:53

help me dig deeper into what

7:55

I'm reading. And then you don't

7:58

need a bucket full of

8:00

comprehension strategies. You need

8:03

a handful. Just a small handful

8:06

of comprehension strategy.

8:08

I love how you said that, because, as

8:10

you know, right now there's just this big

8:13

conversation about, well,

8:15

is it background knowledge and vocabulary that we should

8:17

be teaching? Or is it comprehension strategies

8:20

that we should be teaching? And

8:22

really good readers have both

8:25

things. They use both things.

8:27

So it's not an either/or proposition.

8:30

However, background knowledge is pretty important;

8:33

and it really does influence comprehension.

8:35

Well, it does Susan. And like all

8:38

things in education, we

8:40

have every single good idea that we

8:42

can mess up <laugh> . And I

8:47

kind of worry that we might

8:49

do that with background knowledge. Because

8:53

is it important? Yes. Does

8:55

it facilitate comprehension? Yes.

8:58

Has it been overlooked? Yes.

9:01

But listen to this, how could

9:03

we mess it up? The

9:06

way we could mess it up is to

9:08

think that you TEACH background

9:10

knowledge rather

9:13

than BUILD background

9:15

knowledge.

9:16

Oh, tell me what you mean.

9:20

Did you like that idea?

9:22

I did, yes! It's another Sharon

9:25

Vaughn excellent quote there .

9:27

<laugh> I'm hanging out with you more often <laugh>!

9:29

But, what I mean by that is,

9:32

if we start seeing background

9:34

knowledge is having, like, these components.

9:37

And we have to stand in front of students, and

9:39

start teaching it where the teacher's

9:42

doing all the work. And the

9:44

students are sitting there half aware , half

9:47

asleep, and mostly hoping it ends

9:49

soon, then we

9:51

are not going to enhance background knowledge

9:53

. But if we say to ourselves, "Hmm. I

9:57

need students to have broader,

10:00

deeper, more thorough

10:02

background knowledge, how do

10:04

I build that?" The

10:07

way I build that is

10:10

this duo-focus, from the

10:12

very early stages of teaching,

10:15

in which I have listening

10:18

through higher level texts,

10:20

because students can comprehend through listening

10:23

at a higher level, and I'm

10:26

using information texts

10:28

that build on what students

10:31

are going to be learning in the future in

10:33

social studies, and science, and various areas.

10:36

So I'm literally building this background

10:39

knowledge from the beginning through

10:41

listening comprehension. And

10:44

of course I'm focusing more

10:46

on information texts, because

10:48

those are excellent sources for doing

10:50

that. And so by building,

10:53

I mean that you systematically say

10:55

to yourself, "What are the topics — these

10:59

students are vulnerable, meaning they

11:01

have inadequate background knowledge — and our

11:04

priorities — meaning they're g onna be taught

11:06

in the near future, in the next year or two — that I

11:09

can ramp up?" So that

11:12

the key ideas, concepts, and

11:14

vocabulary words are familiar

11:16

to students when they encounter them. Does

11:19

that kind of fit, with what I'm thinking

11:21

about with building rather than teaching?

11:23

It makes a lot of sense. It actually does, yeah.

11:30

There's an essence of coherency here too

11:32

that I hear coming through in what you're describing. That,

11:35

probably, when we build background knowledge, it's

11:37

not, "Oh, we're going to look at this

11:40

topic today. And tomorrow we're

11:42

gonna think about another one. And the next day

11:44

another one." Right? There must be some

11:46

kind of time on topic that

11:49

probably makes a difference. Does that make sense?

11:52

Whoa! So I am going to borrow

11:54

that word, coherence. I'm

11:57

going to borrow it, and use it in the future,

11:59

because it is really one

12:02

of the fundamental ideas about

12:04

making building of background knowledge

12:07

successful. Because, as

12:09

you said, it's not sort of

12:11

this hunting and pecking around different

12:13

ideas, like, " Oh, today we're gonna talk about legs

12:15

on a spider. Tomorrow we're

12:18

gonna talk about icebergs." We

12:22

can go through those things in iterative

12:24

ways. And we can return to these topics.

12:27

It doesn't mean you spend all your

12:30

time on one topic and never leave. But

12:33

there is a structure, an organization,

12:36

a coherence, as Susan says, that

12:39

really allows students to

12:42

sort of, in a spiral and iterative

12:44

way, encounter these topics. Enhancing

12:48

their background knowledge and concept understanding

12:50

over time. And you know what

12:52

else Susan, they could be done in

12:55

ways in which they're sort of thematically

12:57

organized. So, it could be something

12:59

like places in the world.

13:02

And so for a while you build

13:04

on different places in the world that

13:07

students need to know about. Or it

13:09

could be something like things that

13:12

move fast. And

13:14

you can go from animals to F1,

13:17

to all kinds of really interesting

13:20

things that move fast. And you

13:22

really learn about them. You learn vocabulary,

13:24

and concepts. Then you learn things

13:26

like velocity. And you could

13:28

just imagine how helpful that could be

13:31

as students broaden what they read

13:33

and learn later on.

13:35

There's motivation

13:38

in that for students. I'm in the world

13:40

of elementary, that's where I taught. But

13:43

I loved seeing students get

13:46

excited about topics. And get

13:48

excited to use words that they felt

13:50

like were big people words. There

13:53

is a motivation to that for kids in schooling.

13:56

And since you

13:58

said it, let's talk a little bit about it. There is this relationship

14:00

between vocabulary and

14:03

knowledge in the process of building

14:05

knowledge. You're building and

14:07

acquiring more breadth, and depth,

14:10

and vocabulary as well. And so,

14:12

the two things are so reciprocal in

14:14

nature that when you have

14:17

vocabulary, you likely have the knowledge

14:19

about where that vocabulary sits,

14:21

in terms of themes and topics.

14:23

I really think that's right. And

14:26

I think the emphasis on vocabulary,

14:29

which we've seen, Susan don't you agree, grew

14:31

in the last 10 years.

14:32

Yes.

14:33

And it's pretty well accepted

14:35

in elementary, upper elementary,

14:37

even secondary that vocabulary

14:40

is sort of the , if you will, high

14:43

nutrition. We need to really build

14:46

the DNA of learning. And

14:49

I think that's all right.

14:52

And like I said, there is no good

14:54

idea in education that we can't

14:56

mess up. So let me tell you my worry about vocabulary.

14:59

You ready for this?

14:59

Please! Yep, yep I am.

15:02

<laugh> So here's my worry.

15:04

What I've seen a lot of is that,

15:06

because vocabulary

15:09

is a proxy for background knowledge,

15:11

meaning if we really wanna understand

15:15

students' background knowledge on a particular topic, a

15:18

pretty good way to do that is to

15:20

ask them whether they

15:22

know the meaning of some of the words that

15:25

are fundamental to that

15:27

background knowledge. And so, it

15:29

becomes this sort of proxy. And we,

15:31

therefore, think that by

15:34

teaching vocabulary, we're teaching background knowledge.

15:36

Because they are associated. And

15:39

so that's worry number one.

15:41

I get that. Yes.

15:42

Right? And that's not the same.

15:44

They're related, but they're not the same. And

15:46

the second thing, it's like telling

15:49

me my cousin is related and we're

15:51

the same. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm

15:54

not. The

15:57

second part of vocabulary that worries

15:59

me is that there's

16:01

just a lot of words.

16:03

There are <laugh>.

16:04

Right? There's, like, 5,000

16:08

words that students need to learn every

16:10

year. And so, if

16:12

we as teachers think, "Oh my gosh, I

16:15

have to directly teach all of

16:17

these words. It's my

16:19

job to be the word teacher,"

16:21

rather than, or

16:24

in addition to, "It's

16:26

my job to teach students

16:29

to be word-conscious." Because

16:32

if they can accumulate words and

16:35

become word collectors,

16:38

then a lot of the

16:41

learning needed to acquire that

16:44

multi-thousand number of words they

16:46

need really comes as

16:49

they go through life. Listening,

16:51

and learning, asking questions, reading,

16:54

and thinking about words. Because

16:57

we can teach a couple of words a

17:00

day. We can teach handfuls

17:02

of words a week. And even

17:05

if we're on it as a

17:07

teacher, we will inadequately

17:10

meet the word learning

17:12

needs, meaning the needs,

17:16

of the students we teach. So

17:18

that's kind of a worry, that we sort of think it's

17:21

on us to teach them the

17:23

words and their meaning. 'Cause

17:25

we just can't do it all. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do some

17:27

of it, right? Absolutely. But we

17:29

have to do both.

17:30

You know, I love that you're framing both

17:32

of these things so far, vocabulary and

17:35

background knowledge, in what Sharon

17:38

Vaughn worries about.

17:39

<Laugh>.

17:39

How these things can go go awry. How

17:41

we in education might, what

17:43

did you say? Ruin them, or destroy them, or something

17:45

like that? Because it's always good.

17:47

It's like when we teach vocabulary. What it is and what

17:50

it's not. It puts some guardrails

17:52

on it too. It's like, wait a minute, these

17:54

things are important, but they could also go

17:56

wrong if we're not careful about how we're

17:58

viewing these in instruction.

18:00

I like that you said that,

18:02

because I think

18:04

the strength I have from

18:07

being in this business for decades

18:10

is that I've seen things go

18:13

awry. Good things get

18:15

interpreted incorrectly. I mean, the Science

18:17

of Reading has that potential, don't you think Susan?

18:19

Where people could take that

18:22

and sort of start creating their own

18:24

meaning about what it means. And

18:26

start downloading that on

18:29

districts and schools in ways

18:31

that are counterproductive.

18:33

Yeah, it's certainly true. And

18:35

I think we started this

18:37

episode with just that. It's that even

18:40

now some folks think the Science

18:42

of Reading is just, and only about,

18:45

phonics instruction. And, although that's

18:48

critical, and an important part, it's a

18:50

much bigger body of evidence

18:52

and body of research than just that.

18:56

We'll be right back. Last

18:59

time around, we told you we were sharing our

19:01

final message on knowledge building from

19:03

last year's cohort of Science of

19:05

Reading Star Awards finalists. But

19:08

I've got good news! We actually have

19:10

one more message to share with you this

19:13

time around. We're going to hear from Heather

19:15

Campbell, a learning coach in southern Utah.

19:18

Heather was a finalist for The Changemaker

19:21

Award. Here's Heather.

19:24

When it comes to talking about

19:26

knowledge and knowledge building with

19:28

the Science of Reading, it really is

19:31

important to make sure that the

19:33

teachers understand how to do it in

19:35

bite-sized pieces. Take what

19:37

they're already doing and apply

19:40

it in different ways. It is

19:42

making sure that we're more explicit with vocabulary.

19:45

And making sure that we're taking the

19:47

knowledge strand and providing the

19:49

students the prior knowledge they need

19:51

in the content areas. So they will

19:54

be successful with their comprehension

19:56

later on. I am lucky

19:58

to live in Utah where we have Senate

20:01

Bill 127, which

20:03

states that our current kindergartners,

20:06

by the year 2027, when they are

20:08

third graders, 70%

20:10

of them will be reading at grade level. And

20:13

for us, it's been really diving

20:16

into what is grade level like?

20:18

What does that look like? And it's

20:20

helping the teachers understand the importance

20:23

of increasing the rigor, and

20:25

providing an equitable education for every

20:27

single student in the classroom. So

20:30

that wherever they go,

20:33

and what future careers they choose,

20:35

they will have the knowledge that they need

20:38

in order to be successful and

20:40

to have future jobs and careers.

20:42

That was Heather Campbell, learning coach from

20:45

Sunset Elementary in Washington County School

20:48

District in Utah. Heather was a

20:50

finalist for The Changemaker Award. That

20:53

was our final message

20:55

from our 2023 cohort

20:58

of the Science of

21:00

Reading Star Award finalists. But

21:03

applications are open for

21:05

the 2024 Science of Reading Star Awards.

21:09

Find

21:15

out more information, and submit a

21:17

nomination, at amplify.com/sor-star-awards. And now,

21:20

back to our conversation with Dr. Sharon Vaughn. I

21:23

wanna go back a

21:25

little bit, not to plug your

21:28

practice guide again, from the What

21:31

Works Clearinghouse, but ... for grades four through nine, I do a lot

21:32

of work with

21:35

elementary teachers and educators. And more and more

21:38

people are understanding the importance of read-alouds,

21:40

and getting this background knowledge and vocabulary

21:42

to kids, and texts that are well above

21:44

their grade level, because they're not even reading

21:46

yet. But even in this What

21:49

Works Clearinghouse Practice Guide,

21:52

you remind fourth through

21:54

ninth grade

21:56

educators, in recommendation number three, about building a

21:59

set of comprehension-building practices,

22:02

or using a set

22:04

of practices. And I know you don't have this memorized,

22:06

but I have it in front of me. And

22:08

it says two things. There's four parts to this. The

22:11

first two parts are build students'

22:14

world and word knowledge, and

22:16

then consistently provide students with opportunities

22:19

to ask and answer questions to

22:22

better understand the text. And I think those two things

22:25

are really interesting. Because one, I

22:27

think upper-elementary and middle-grade teachers are not quite

22:29

sure what this comprehension and

22:31

knowledge building should look like. But

22:34

we're still focusing on those things, right? In

22:36

the upper elementary and middle grades. Word

22:39

knowledge. World knowledge. Ask and

22:41

answer questions. And get kids involved

22:43

in this building of background knowledge.

22:46

Did I get that right? Did I make a connection

22:48

correctly?

22:50

I like that bridge.

22:52

And it bridges beautifully to what

22:54

we were talking about with

22:56

background knowledge. World

22:59

knowledge is just another way to say background

23:02

knowledge. And word-reading

23:04

is just another way to talk about what

23:06

we were saying, where you have to be an efficient and accurate

23:10

reader of words. And I

23:12

keep using the word, "efficient." And

23:14

the reason I do is because

23:17

when you are slow and laborious,

23:20

even if you are accurate, that

23:24

slow, laborious

23:29

reading keeps

23:32

you from freeing up your cognitive

23:34

resources in such a way that you can think

23:36

about what you're reading. And you can

23:38

hold multiple ideas in your head.

23:41

And you can compose meaning so

23:44

that you can read for understanding. And

23:46

that's why that efficiency is so

23:49

important. Especially when

23:51

you get to fourth through ninth grade. Because

23:53

without it, that really

23:57

extensively slow reading bogs

24:00

you down. So that by the

24:02

time you reach the end of the paragraph,

24:05

you can't possibly remember

24:07

what the beginning of the paragraph was about.

24:11

So, we really want to think about ways to

24:13

improve efficiency. And that's why fluency

24:15

ends up being important, even in those upper grades.

24:18

And kicking back to

24:21

your question about the

24:23

strategies of asking and

24:25

answering questions. Can we return to

24:28

that as well, Susan ?

24:29

Yeah , please.

24:29

OK. So, here's why I wanna

24:32

return to that. Asking questions is, as you

24:37

know, extremely difficult. Asking

24:39

the RIGHT questions. Asking

24:41

questions that get students to think about,

24:44

and wonder about, what they've read. And

24:46

integrate it with what they know and think from

24:49

other things . That's where

24:51

the real learning juice is.

24:55

Asking questions that

24:57

require me to go back into

25:00

the text and find one-word answers.

25:03

You know, what color was the boy's hat when

25:05

he was riding the pony? Well,

25:08

I mean, I can find that, right? And

25:11

I don't even necessarily have to know a lot about

25:13

comprehension in order to do it. So,

25:16

I don't think those questions are

25:19

useless, but

25:21

they're pretty close to useless. We

25:24

really have to figure out how to

25:26

ask questions. Like, what about

25:30

how? Why?

25:33

When did this happen? And

25:36

why do you think the author wanted

25:38

that? So, really,

25:40

the quality of the question we

25:43

ask has everything to

25:45

do with the quality of the comprehension

25:47

we can expect. And

25:51

we think of these questions, Susan,

25:53

as coming after students read.

25:56

Not bad, you know, we should do some

25:58

of that. But, it's also not a bad idea

26:00

to say, "So far,

26:03

here's what we've read about Napoleon.

26:06

In the next page, something

26:09

is going to happen that

26:12

changes the way Napoleon

26:15

thinks about how to lead

26:17

men. As you read this, see

26:21

if you can figure out what that

26:23

is? And how that affected him?"

26:26

That's very

26:29

thought-provoking, in terms of the

26:32

quality of our comprehension. I think this is

26:34

what you said. I'm gonna say it back to you again. The

26:36

quality of the comprehension, or

26:38

how we're assessing the quality of students'

26:41

comprehension, is directly related

26:43

to the types of questions we're

26:46

asking, or the quality of the questions

26:48

we're asking. So there's a relationship

26:50

between those two things.

26:52

Thank you for putting a

26:55

headline on those comments, because that's a really nice

26:57

headline. Another headline

27:01

along with yours is

27:03

text matters. I

27:06

think we have this idea for

27:08

so long, Susan, that

27:11

every child should know what

27:14

their level is in their leveled

27:16

reading. And every

27:19

child should read in their leveled

27:21

reading box. And

27:23

golly, forbid if you pick

27:26

up a harder or easier box.

27:29

Well, I don't know about you, but how

27:31

would you like to have a box that you could

27:33

read in and not lower or higher?

27:36

<laugh> Yeah , no , thank you . That's interesting,

27:40

because you also talk a lot

27:42

about, I think this is

27:44

right, nutrition as

27:46

it relates to instruction,

27:49

and making sure we have a good balance of

27:51

that. Is that right?

27:53

I think so. In the

27:55

guidance document that you referred to, one

27:58

of the things they suggest, or we suggest,

28:01

I can't blame them since I'm the first author, we

28:03

suggest.

28:05

<Laugh>.

28:05

If you guys don't like it out there, it's not my fault; if

28:08

you like it, I did the whole thing by myself <laugh>. But

28:12

the recommendation is

28:14

to integrate stretch-text into

28:17

students reading. And the

28:20

thinking behind that is that

28:22

as students are behind, because

28:25

this is focusing on students who are struggling readers,

28:28

we need to understand that for many

28:30

of these students, accessing grade

28:33

level text has never occurred. So

28:36

they have had a steady diet,

28:40

if you will, of text that has limited

28:42

background knowledge, marginalized

28:46

vocabulary, and some

28:48

text that's under-complicated. And

28:51

because of the steady diet of that

28:53

... now, I don't think they should have none of that.

28:55

People need to practice reading what they can't

28:58

read. But they can't ONLY

29:01

practice reading what they can't read. With

29:05

strong teacher support, reading

29:08

texts that are challenging can

29:10

be interesting, fun, engaging, and

29:13

profitable.

29:14

I like

29:16

how you said that. Interesting,

29:19

engaging, and profitable. Can

29:22

you talk a little bit more about what you mean by profitable?

29:24

Well, what I mean is this. So,

29:27

imagine, Susan, that I'm

29:29

one of the students you're teaching. And

29:31

imagine me as a fifth grader, which

29:34

is not actually that hard. I act that way

29:36

quite a bit <laugh> . And

29:42

imagine that I read on the second-grade

29:45

level. So you can

29:47

imagine that over the last six

29:49

years of my schooling, the

29:52

kind of low-level, mind-numbing,

29:56

simplified texts I've

29:58

been exposed to, right? Because I have

30:00

to read my level books. And they're

30:03

all just exactly what

30:05

you think. I think people do

30:07

a really good job trying to make those books

30:10

interesting. I am sometimes amazed at how

30:12

interesting they make them. But nevertheless, I'm

30:15

in fifth grade and these books are

30:17

quite a bit simpler than what

30:19

I am as a developed fifth grader.

30:22

Now, imagine that

30:25

there's a topic I'm interested in.

30:27

And imagine you find a book about

30:30

trains on the fourth-grade level. And

30:33

we are able to work through it,

30:35

because as a seasoned, knowledgeable

30:38

teacher, you know what words

30:40

to show me ahead of time. You know

30:43

how to tell me how to re-read. You

30:45

know how to read the paragraph first,

30:48

before me, and say, "I'm gonna read it first and then you're

30:50

gonna gonna read it." You know how to support me, so

30:53

that accessing this text

30:56

is profitable for me.

30:58

That's great. It's

31:02

really helpful. A helpful reminder

31:05

that education is about

31:08

stretching, and growing, and helping

31:10

our students access those things that they

31:12

might not have been able to access

31:15

without us. And so,

31:17

that idea of helping kids get to

31:21

what you're calling stretch-text is really great. I

31:23

think you

31:28

know something too about

31:31

literacy instruction, that

31:34

actively and effectively supports

31:37

students' literacy development. And I'd love for you to talk about a

31:39

couple of things. The first

31:42

one is called Collaborative

31:45

Strategic Reading, also known as

31:47

CSR, because we like to shorten things <laugh> . Can

31:52

you talk a little bit about CSR?

31:55

And what it is? And why it's so effective?

31:58

Thank you for that invitation, because my

32:01

colleagues Janette Klingner

32:03

and I, and unfortunately

32:06

Janette Klingner has passed away, which is very,

32:08

very sad for me. That was

32:12

probably about eight years ago or so. And

32:15

she and I, all the way back when

32:17

we were living in Miami, which was over 25

32:20

years ago, wondered

32:22

how it was we could make classrooms,

32:26

that is, what we think of as general education

32:28

classrooms, more

32:32

supportive of students who were challenged

32:35

by reading. And how could we set something

32:38

up? So that information text, again,

32:40

thinking about background knowledge and vocabulary,

32:43

was at the center of that. And

32:45

we also knew too many strategies

32:48

means you waste too much of

32:50

students' cognitive processing on learning strategies,

32:52

and not enough on learning reading. So

32:55

with that in mind, we pulled together

32:58

a set of practices

33:01

that would be conducive to

33:03

small-group reading. And

33:05

in which students in

33:07

the group would take on various roles

33:10

to lead the group. So we

33:12

would have a leader. We would have

33:14

a gist expert, which is basically the main

33:16

idea. We would have a

33:19

summarization expert, that would put the gist together.

33:22

And then we would have a clunk expert. And the clunk

33:25

expert was somebody who would help

33:27

the group when words were

33:32

either too difficult because they were multi-syllable or

33:34

because students couldn't

33:37

figure out the meaning.

33:38

Did you say clunk expert? C-L-U-N-K?

33:42

Clunk, not cluck . This is not about chickens

33:45

<laugh>.

33:45

OK, got it <laugh> .

33:48

Yeah . Clunk expert. Because

33:50

we thought of a word

33:52

when you're reading as being a clunk,

33:54

it stopped you dead in your tracks and you

33:56

couldn't go any further . So we

33:59

had a set of strategies that we

34:01

taught related to each of those practices.

34:03

Clunk expert, gist expert,

34:06

summarization expert. And

34:08

we used information text. And students working

34:11

in groups would help each other, because they

34:13

would become experts at these. And

34:15

then we would rotate expertise

34:17

over the course of a year, so

34:19

that, you know, in a six-month period, every student

34:22

in the group would become an expert in

34:24

each one of these things. And the

34:26

idea was that once they practiced

34:28

and became an expert in the

34:30

group, it would generalize to other reading they

34:32

would do throughout the day. And

34:35

the teacher then would model

34:37

these strategies, and support the groups, as students

34:39

were reading it. But the

34:41

initial work that we did was in

34:44

whole-class, general-education settings.

34:47

And we've done many studies.

34:49

Students with disabilities, students who are

34:51

English learners, students who are poor

34:53

readers. And we've done studies in multiple

34:57

states. CSR is consistently associated with

35:00

improved outcomes, to the point where I kind of feel

35:02

like, "Well, maybe I should do another

35:04

CSR study." And actually, I am.

35:06

I just started doing a CSR study

35:08

with my colleague, Elizabeth Swanson and

35:11

Phil Capin. And we're using

35:14

CSR through computer-assisted instruction,

35:16

in which we have texts of

35:19

various levels, easier and harder,

35:21

and in English and in Spanish,

35:24

so that we are using CSR

35:27

through computers. So we're just getting

35:29

started, but we're really excited about the idea.

35:32

Wow! That's really interesting! And I

35:34

have a question for you about the way that the

35:37

strategy is then employed during instruction.

35:39

So, each of these individual experts,

35:42

if you will, are actually there

35:44

though in service of increasing

35:48

the knowledge that the kids are gaining

35:50

from the text, right? So we're putting the content first,

35:53

but these strategies are coming up to support the

35:55

learning of that content. Is that right?

35:57

Yeah.

35:57

So it's not the strategy for strategy's

36:00

sake, right?

36:00

Oh , that's right. Thank you. You always

36:03

do such a nice job summarizing what I've said. I

36:06

appreciate it <laugh>.

36:08

That's really very interesting.

36:11

And so, in your study using computers

36:14

or technology, what makes

36:16

it different than the in-classroom kind

36:18

of stuff that you did previously?

36:21

Well, we're just getting started. This is a brand

36:24

new study that we just had funded. And

36:26

right now we're building the text base, so

36:29

we're trying to get background knowledge. Let's

36:31

say we're talking about the

36:34

history of Egypt, which is

36:36

one of the content areas students need to learn.

36:38

We are building a cadre of

36:41

easier and harder text on every

36:43

topic, so that students can

36:45

use the easier text to

36:47

then access the harder text. The

36:49

idea is that you

36:51

can start with the easier text to kind of

36:54

get some of the background knowledge so that the harder

36:56

text is easier to read. And

36:58

we're also then using the

37:01

strategies of CSR to

37:04

help with comprehension around those texts.

37:08

That makes sense. So, in other words, the

37:11

technology being employed here is in

37:13

relationship to the text?

37:15

Yeah.

37:15

And the increased difficulty of the text. OK.

37:18

Thank you for that clarification. And

37:20

I think this is what we would call, somewhat of, a

37:22

replication study. Is that what

37:25

this might be? Is that we're seeingiIf it can work?

37:27

Or maybe is it in a different context?

37:29

Yeah, I think replication studies can

37:31

be either direct replications, in

37:34

which they literally replicate everything

37:36

that was done in previous studies, or they

37:38

are extended replications. So

37:40

I think of this more as an extended replication.

37:43

Yeah, that makes sense. When was the first time

37:46

that you actually studied CSR?

37:49

Whoa, I'm gonna say it was like in

37:51

'95.

37:53

And the

37:55

reason I say that is, because I think we forget,

37:58

or maybe we don't even realize, maybe some

38:01

newer educators don't even realize how

38:03

often we sort of build on this research.

38:06

Things that we see work, and we replicate,

38:09

like you said, and extend on that replication.

38:11

And continue to work out. That's

38:14

part of the scientific process.

38:16

You know, in fact, back to the Science of

38:18

Reading, which we can't leave behind

38:21

<laugh> , and that is that if you

38:23

look at the early studies from

38:25

the late eighties and early nineties,

38:28

they really were the building blocks for

38:30

phonemic awareness and phonics. And

38:33

the way in which we have identified

38:35

the foundation skills as being essential. So,

38:38

we act like the Science of Reading is something new,

38:40

and we've been building this for decades.

38:43

Yeah, that is a great point. That's a great reminder

38:45

of how long

38:48

this actually takes to get these things right. So,

38:54

does it bother you or surprise

38:56

you that we're still talking about the

38:59

reading wars, or trying to get this instruction

39:01

right in the classroom?

39:05

You know, what bothers me is

39:08

that it has challenged us to

39:11

get this practice up and

39:13

running. I think

39:16

teaching is hard, but I

39:18

hardly think that teaching

39:20

reading is something that we

39:22

have not understood. We've understood

39:25

this for a long time. And

39:29

the principles and practices that

39:31

are so fundamental to what makes

39:33

a difference for students having access

39:35

to print is not

39:37

novel. And any

39:40

arguments and discussions that

39:43

are unreasonable around

39:46

it frustrate me. Yes.

39:48

Well that's coming from

39:50

somebody that's dedicated a

39:52

really long time to this whole

39:55

process. So, thank you for that. I'd

39:57

love to ask you about one more project

40:01

that you worked on called Project PACT.

40:05

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

40:07

You know, Susan, I was just actually working on

40:09

that this morning. Because I was putting a speech

40:12

together about the four

40:14

randomized controlled trials that we've

40:16

done on PACT, which is promoting and

40:19

accelerating comprehension for adolescents.

40:22

And it's through text, it's a text-based

40:25

approach. Again, primarily

40:28

information text. A little bit of hybrid text, and by

40:30

hybrid text I mean narrative and information.

40:32

Kind of like biography is a hybrid text.

40:35

But we like to keep our text nutritious,

40:38

so that students learn things, and build background

40:40

knowledge, and increase their vocabulary. And

40:44

PACT is also a class-wide

40:46

practice, meaning that it's done in

40:48

classrooms with a range of learners. And

40:51

it has been associated with improved outcomes

40:53

for that entire range of learners. So

40:55

we have outcomes for English learners, students

40:57

with reading difficulties , etc. And

41:00

the set of practices really

41:02

starts with what we think of

41:04

as a comprehension canopy. So,

41:07

we sort of think about a unit,

41:09

maybe a week-long or two-week unit, and

41:12

what the big overarching idea

41:16

is to learn about in that unit.

41:18

So, again, building on background knowledge. And

41:21

then within that, what some of the

41:23

key constructs or vocabulary words

41:25

are. So we know we can't teach

41:27

all of 'em, but we wanna teach some of the nuggets

41:30

each week. And then we

41:32

also work very hard to be sure

41:34

that students work in

41:37

teams . So it's team-based learning. It's

41:39

not cooperative learning, which is what CSR

41:42

is. But team-based learning means

41:44

that students demonstrate what

41:46

they learn from the text independently,

41:49

and then they work in their team to give feedback,

41:52

and go back and revisit it. So

41:55

team-based learning, Susan, actually came out

41:58

of universities, in which they were using

42:00

it in things like pharmacy, and nursing,

42:02

and medicine. To make sure that

42:05

individuals as well as groups learned

42:07

all they needed to learn. And we

42:09

applied it to middle school and

42:11

high school, quite successfully. And

42:14

then, of course, there's

42:16

a set of instructional practices very

42:19

similar to the ones in CSR. So

42:21

there's a lot of overlap, because these

42:23

are effective practices, but there's a

42:25

lot of independence as well. This one is much more

42:27

text-based, and much more content,

42:30

background-knowledge-based.

42:32

And when

42:34

you say some of the strategies, can you just paint

42:36

a picture of what it would look like in a

42:38

classroom during a lesson when

42:41

PACT was being utilized?

42:43

Yeah, thank you for that. Well, it's

42:45

kind of hard to do that, because every day focuses

42:48

on something a little different. It is a set of

42:50

practices, but what I can

42:52

say, and we encourage people

42:55

to do this, is go to our website,

42:57

which is really easy to remember. So it's www.meadowscenter.org.

43:03

So the beautiful meadow, only with an "s" on

43:05

it. And we

43:08

have sample lessons there. I

43:11

find it very hard to do without

43:13

pictures, and without instruction, to

43:15

really portray this multiple

43:18

set of practices.

43:19

Well, we will also link the listeners in our show

43:21

notes to that. And just

43:23

to reiterate, this is middle and high

43:25

school. So this is sort of an upper-grades strategy or

43:29

project.

43:30

Yeah. We're working on an elementary

43:32

version of it right now. So we're

43:35

just getting ready to do some of our initial efficacy

43:37

trials . So we'll have more information on that

43:40

in the next year or two.

43:40

Great. Well, we'll follow that on the website.

43:43

Thank you for pointing us in that direction. I

43:45

appreciate it. There's

43:48

been a lot of Dr.

43:50

Sharon Vaughn nuggets <laugh> in the last

43:53

45 minutes, so thank you

43:55

for including all those. I just

43:57

wonder if you have any final thoughts for

43:59

our listeners? Anything that

44:01

you would like to share?

44:03

Well, the one thing I wanna share is

44:05

I wanna thank the listeners, because I feel like I

44:07

preached to the already converted <laugh> . So

44:09

anyone listening to your show already

44:12

probably knows many of the things firsthand

44:15

that we talked about. And sometimes they just

44:17

look for affirmation. And so

44:20

I hope some of the things that we have said today

44:22

provide the kind of affirmation your

44:24

very capable listening group already

44:27

knows.

44:27

Well, thank you for that. And I would

44:29

add to that, for those that are listening,

44:33

share this episode with those folks that

44:35

maybe are looking to

44:37

learn more about the Science of Reading. 'Cause

44:39

Dr. Sharon Vaughn is actually

44:42

one of those pillars of the Science of

44:45

Reading. Someone who's been around. And

44:47

who knows this work. And has done this work. So

44:50

I really appreciate you joining us today. It

44:52

was a real honor, and pleasure, to be able to chat

44:54

with you. And good

44:56

luck on the research that you're

44:59

doing right now. We will definitely keep up on

45:01

that.

45:01

Thank you. And thanks for being such a great interviewer.

45:04

I was lucky to work with you.

45:08

Thanks so much for listening to my conversation

45:10

with Dr. Sharon Vaughn. Dr.

45:13

Vaughn is the Manuel J. Justiz endowed

45:16

chair in education and executive

45:19

director of The Meadow Center for Preventing

45:21

Educational Risk at The University

45:23

of Texas, Austin. Check

45:26

out the show notes for links to some of the resources

45:28

we discussed, including the

45:30

What Works Clearinghouse Practice Guide

45:33

providing reading intervention for students

45:35

in grades four through nine. We'd

45:38

be thrilled to hear your takeaways from this conversation.

45:41

Please add to the conversation in

45:44

our Facebook discussion group, Science

45:46

of Reading: The Community, Science

45:48

of Reading: The Podcast is brought to you by

45:50

Amplify. For more information

45:53

on how Amplify leverages the Science of

45:55

Reading, go to amplify.com/ckla.

46:01

Next time on the show, I'll be joined by

46:03

Dr. Greg Ashman for a fascinating

46:06

conversation about Cognitive Load Theory

46:09

and how it can be applied in an education

46:11

setting.

46:12

People think of memory in quite a reduced

46:15

and limited way. They think about memorizing

46:18

facts or you know, the date of

46:20

a battle and they think that's what memory is. But

46:22

to us, in Cognitive Load Theory, memory is

46:24

a much more expansive thing. So the ability to

46:27

hit a ball in a certain way is actually

46:29

something that is stored in long-term memory.

46:31

That's coming up next time. Don't

46:34

miss that. Or any other upcoming

46:36

episodes by subscribing to Science

46:38

of Reading: The Podcast, wherever you

46:40

find your podcasts. While

46:43

you're there, please consider leaving us a rating

46:45

and review. Thank you again

46:47

for listening.