This episode originally aired March 13, 2019

Reinier de Graaf has been a partner at OMA since 1996. He co-founded the studio's think tank AMO and has overseen projects ranging from an exhibition of the history of the European Union to masterplans for projects around the world. He has also taught in Harvard's architecture department and is the author of Four Walls and a Roof: The Complex Nature of a Simple Profession. In this episode, Jarrett and Reinier talk about the origins of AMO and when clients don't need buildings, the intersections of theory and practice, and why he doesn't always preach what he practices.

Reinier's latest book, architect, verb, is now available. Links from this episode can be found at scratchingthesurface.fm/114-reinier-de-graaf-rerun.—If you enjoy the show, please consider supporting us on Patreon and get bonus content, transcripts, and our monthly newsletter! www.patreon.com/surfacepodcast