0:03

Hi. I'm your host, Vasquez White.

0:06

Welcome to the Scrum master toolbox podcast

0:08

where we share tips and tricks from scrum

0:11

masters around the world. Every

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day, we bring you inspiring answers to

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important questions that all scrum masters

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face

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day after day. On

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Fridays, we talk about the product owner

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role in scrum. We talk about patterns

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and antipatterns that relate to

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hours and the team's collaboration with

0:30

the product owner. And we've also

0:32

put together a course to help you navigate

0:35

that relationship. There's

0:37

eighteen modules, nearly eight

0:39

hours of tools, techniques, videos,

0:42

handouts, Presentations you

0:45

can use to help you and your team

0:47

work better with your product owner.

0:49

The course is available at BIT

0:52

dot l y slash coach

0:54

your p o, all lowercase, all

0:56

one word, that's BIT dot

0:58

l y forward slash

1:01

coach your

1:02

p o. And now

1:04

on to the show, the product owner

1:06

show. Hello,

1:08

everybody. Welcome to our my day,

1:10

and TGIF episode this week

1:12

with Caterina Reinker.

1:14

Hey Katarina. Welcome back.

1:16

Hi,

1:17

Russel. Thanks for having me at the end of the

1:19

week.

1:19

Absolutely. And today we have

1:21

a quite amazing topic I think to talk

1:23

about. It's one of my favorite topics,

1:25

the product owner and it's

1:27

both sides of the coin,

1:29

I guess, you could call it the the good

1:31

and the bad. We'll

1:34

talk about a great product sooner in a minute.

1:36

But before that, do share with us, Caterina,

1:39

the worst product owner

1:41

and the pattern that you've ever witnessed

1:43

in your career.

1:45

think the worst and

1:47

most often witness product on a

1:50

product on an anti pattern by myself,

1:52

that a witness is the PO

1:54

as a project manager, delegating

1:56

work, tracking the output, reporting

1:59

to the management,

1:59

not doing any

2:02

product exploration, backlog

2:05

work, and working with the team

2:07

or guiding the team with a

2:09

vision and so on. I think that is

2:11

the the worst anti pattern

2:14

because it's not really, yeah, helping

2:16

the team or not the product owner themselves

2:20

nor the product in the end.

2:22

And yeah.

2:23

So tell us a little bit more. I imagine

2:25

that such an anti pattern would

2:27

emerge for example, with

2:31

a conversation in the daily meeting where the product

2:33

owner says, hey, Mary, you take care

2:35

of this oh, and drove this other thing

2:37

that I told you about yesterday, it needs

2:39

to be done today. Remember that? And

2:42

like that kind of conversation, is that one,

2:44

how you witness it?

2:45

Yes. And also just lose getting

2:48

a lot of requests lose that in

2:50

their own inbox.

2:53

And then just

2:54

getting it through to the teams.

2:56

And so kind of instead of acting

2:58

as a filter, acting more

3:00

like a telephone. Right? Like, comes in

3:02

and goes straight to the team. Mhmm.

3:04

Or maybe not even

3:07

going through the product owner,

3:09

but all these tasks reach matters

3:12

directly and the team

3:14

does not have any,

3:15

yeah, any process yet.

3:17

How how do we cope with all these

3:19

emails that we get? from all our

3:21

colleagues, they all need our help,

3:23

and then

3:24

everyone is just running on their own.

3:26

Absolutely.

3:26

And it it also as

3:29

you describe it, it it also comes

3:31

to mind the potential lack

3:33

of clarity in the spring planning.

3:35

I imagine a conversation such as

3:38

and asks, hey, do we also

3:40

need to do this And then

3:43

maybe Jeff says, not just

3:45

that story, but remember there's this other

3:47

you know, refactoring

3:49

that needs to be done when we do that story

3:51

and the PO says yes to everything.

3:54

Right? Yes and yes and

3:56

yes.

3:56

even worse when the product owner

3:59

then asks,

3:59

what do you want to do next print?

4:03

That's actually

4:03

a great point. I have to write that down.

4:06

what do you want to do

4:08

next sprint? And so

4:11

besides this I could

4:13

call it symptoms, signs of

4:16

this PO

4:19

as a project manager. What other

4:21

signs to UC. May maybe in relationship

4:25

to stakeholders, maybe in relationship

4:27

to other teams, like, what what are the characteristics

4:29

of that PO as a project manager?

4:31

In regards to the stakeholders, as

4:34

I quickly mentioned at the beginning, it's

4:36

really about this reporting. Like,

4:38

okay, I have this list of, I don't

4:40

know, one hundred thing I got from

4:42

my boss, and

4:43

my boss requests

4:44

lose a weekly update how

4:46

far have you come. And

4:48

it's really not about the

4:51

devalue your creation anymore or the

4:53

outcome created by the team. It's just

4:55

simply okay. There were one hundred

4:57

items on the list. How many are

4:59

so open? Tell me, are we green?

5:00

Are we red? And I was like, uh-huh. I

5:03

don't want to hear anything about any.

5:05

traffic light

5:07

metal for us here, lose. That

5:09

reminds me too much of

5:11

a more traditional project management

5:14

thing and we don't have any time

5:16

to actually talk about the value

5:19

or the thing, the product that we

5:21

are working on because When

5:23

you ask a product owner like this,

5:25

what is actually your product you

5:27

own? It's really hard for them

5:29

to answer their question. The lose you do

5:31

a hundred things and

5:34

so hard then to to have a connection

5:36

between these many things and

5:38

many responsibilities and sometimes

5:41

also not default because

5:43

as we talked about before,

5:45

it's a lot about cultural change and

5:47

how organizations cope

5:49

with changed and

5:51

with responsibility

5:55

and ownership in their

5:57

regs as well. And

6:00

yeah. But not being able

6:02

to answer, what is your product is

6:04

one of these project manager

6:07

symptoms, I would say.

6:08

Yeah. It's so focused on the work.

6:10

They forget why they're doing it. I

6:12

I recognize that I've been guilty of

6:14

the same myself So

6:16

it's easy. I don't blame anyone.

6:18

Yeah. I mean, because work tends to

6:21

just take over your mind. Right? Lose, you're just

6:23

working on it and then that's what you think

6:25

about. You don't think about – you don't take

6:27

a step back, right? And I think

6:29

that's one of the key advantages of a product

6:31

owner that is able to relinquish

6:33

control. To let the team do their

6:35

thing, those POs are able

6:37

to then step back and think, why are we

6:39

doing these things? Why are people asking me

6:41

for this and that feature right? Who are

6:43

we serving? Because if we're

6:45

constantly doing what I would call

6:48

shopping list management style

6:50

product ownership, Right? All all

6:52

we have is a shopping lose. And and

6:54

there's only two things you can do with the shopping

6:56

list. It's either add stuff or go to the supermarket

6:59

to fulfill it. There's no other way.

7:01

Right? So,

7:03

Andrina, that was a bad example, of

7:05

course, and we always want to have some

7:07

examples of antipatterns, but

7:09

We also want to have a great example. So

7:12

share with us what's

7:14

the best product owner you've ever

7:16

worked with? How did they work?

7:18

So for me, I think one of the

7:20

nicest product owner relationships

7:22

I had in the past was one

7:25

product only that was able to shift

7:27

prospectors really swiftly, like

7:30

at one point, thinking really

7:32

big and beyond with the stakeholders,

7:35

with the management of men, to

7:37

have a big vision to really be

7:39

able to also stand behind this

7:41

vision and to also

7:43

show different options. Lose, we

7:46

could do business and this, that outcome

7:48

or we can go direction b

7:50

with a different outcome. What do

7:52

you think? This is the timeline? This is

7:54

the cost and to really have this

7:57

visual always in your pocket,

7:59

and I find found that

8:01

really good working. like

8:03

this product owner, he always had the

8:05

same slide, PowerPoint, and

8:07

he just updated at the same site

8:09

that we always had the same visual

8:11

that changed over time

8:14

with the timeline, the biggest topics,

8:16

and then management just connected

8:18

this slide with this product

8:20

owner, the product, and the team,

8:22

and that was so helpful for

8:24

communication. And on

8:26

the other hand, this same slide was also

8:29

pretty helpful for the team's perspective.

8:31

That is where I come to

8:32

the part of shifting perspectives

8:35

because

8:35

as I with management, you want

8:37

to think big, think beyond, but

8:39

a team,

8:40

they're on a different level. They

8:42

work on really detailed technical

8:45

stuff. and then when I come

8:47

as a product owner and

8:49

I feel like I've told

8:51

you that a hundred times before,

8:53

have you forgotten about it again? that's

8:55

not careful because they are no technical

8:58

details, and it's okay that they

9:00

don't have division on the tip of of the

9:02

fingers at all times. That's why you need the

9:04

product only. And then here

9:06

also as a product owner, to be

9:08

abroken record, to

9:10

repeat over and over again the

9:12

vision why we're doing it, the

9:14

idea behind the goal that we want

9:16

to reach in the sprint and also in the

9:18

next sprint

9:19

to provide this guidance. I

9:21

think that is really

9:22

helpful. And also here, you can use

9:24

the same slide that you lose management

9:27

of your team and just some modem all the

9:29

time. This is what we're doing. That is where

9:31

we're heading to. Does the next three

9:33

things we want to achieve

9:35

to

9:35

really get

9:37

over the feeling that there is a

9:39

backlog with, I don't know, a hundred

9:41

or open items and I

9:43

don't know how they're all connected.

9:44

Here's a simple slide and there

9:47

is where we want you to go

9:49

and

9:49

to create this clarity

9:51

and direction. I think that

9:53

is a very good that

9:55

is what a very good or even

9:57

great product owner does.

10:00

Absolutely.

10:00

I really like the emphasis

10:03

on repeating a visionary

10:06

picture. Right? Lose, this is where we're going.

10:08

This is why we're doing it and and doing it both

10:10

with a high level perspective to

10:12

the stakeholders as well as to the

10:14

link to the work, when

10:16

working and talking to the team. I think

10:18

that that is a a great idea.

10:20

And and the the tip of always

10:22

having the same visual. Right?

10:24

It always looks the same and then we're

10:26

updating it as we go through and and than using

10:28

that as a repetition.

10:31

One manager of mine

10:33

once told me that in order for people to

10:35

get something must repeat it

10:37

seventeen times. Do not expect

10:39

anyone to remember something you have not

10:41

repeated seventeen times.

10:44

And it was it it was

10:46

so, how you say, visceral, that way

10:48

that he communicated that to me

10:50

that it really is stuck. It's

10:52

that

10:52

people don't listen or

10:54

they're dumb or anything. It's just like everyone

10:56

has their own perspective and what is

10:58

important to you might not

11:00

be that top of the list at my

11:02

head at the moment because I have other

11:04

ten things that I have to tend

11:06

to. So if you don't tell me several

11:08

times that this is really important,

11:10

it

11:10

might not make my cut as

11:13

simple as

11:13

then. Absolutely. And one

11:15

addition to that, so

11:18

repetition is important because it becomes top

11:20

of mind with time. It doesn't necessarily

11:22

do that the first time. And then the

11:24

other thing is that people are

11:26

always testing as a product owner. Right? They

11:28

are they're checking, do you really believe in

11:30

this? And if you don't repeat it, you can

11:32

easily change that action and boom, it's

11:34

fine. Right? Yeah. But when the

11:36

productor is repetitive in the

11:38

sense of consistent and

11:41

disciplined in the message, then the team

11:43

absorbs and takes on that

11:45

message and also do the stakeholders.

11:47

Mhmm.

11:47

And also, I think the thing that I

11:50

discovered there which was

11:52

really interesting is that, of course, the

11:54

vision changes slightly

11:56

over time, doesn't stay

11:58

the same. for twelve months

11:59

or even twelve weeks, it just

12:02

changes slightly. And if you

12:04

don't repeat it ever

12:06

so often, you missed

12:08

the slight changes and just just hear the

12:10

big bangs. And it's like, oh,

12:12

wow.

12:12

Now we changed direction quite a

12:14

lot. What happened there? And then it appears like

12:16

this mess of thing that brings a

12:18

lot of noise to the

12:20

team instead of these

12:23

more swifter steady

12:25

changes that happens, naturally

12:27

happens, and it just

12:29

more natural and more

12:32

more flowy. Absolutely.

12:33

That's a great way to put it

12:35

more flowy. It flows

12:37

better. It's accepted better

12:39

by the team. Mhmm. Katarina,

12:42

that was a great story, a great example

12:44

of an awesome p o. Thank you for

12:46

sharing that. Unfortunately, we are

12:48

getting close to the end. But before we go,

12:50

where can people find out more about you and

12:52

the work that you're doing?

12:54

You

12:54

can find me on LinkedIn.

12:57

I'm happy to connect with you

12:59

guys there if you want. drop me a

13:01

line and maybe we can

13:03

connect about the topics a bit

13:05

more. Absolutely.

13:05

So don't hesitate, send follow-up

13:08

questions to Katrina on LinkedIn. I'll put

13:10

the link on the show notes so that people can

13:12

easily find it. Caterina, it's been a

13:14

pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity

13:16

with your time and your knowledge.

13:18

Thank you

13:18

for letting me join you

13:21

this week also.

13:23

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