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The. Work Lab podcast from Microsoft answers

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the questions they keep business leaders

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up at night like how can

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I reinvent processes for the Ai

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era? From customer service to sales

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to Hr, how can I prepare

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for a I'd have fundamentally transform

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jobs companies industries in the whole

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economy. Don't panic, tune in, Each.

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Episode of Work Lab brings you the

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top experts, hard data and actionable insights

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to help you future prove you are

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organization. Check out Work Lab that's W

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O R K L A B No

0:30

spaces on Apple Spot if I or

0:32

wherever you get your podcasts. Hi

0:40

everyone, I'm Hilary Car The Cow

0:42

founder and Chief Content Officer F

0:44

Who Out Where and this Is

0:47

Second Life a podcast spotlighting women

0:49

who have truly inspiring careers, were

0:51

talking about their work journeys, what

0:54

they've learned from the process of

0:56

setting aside their doubts or fears

0:58

and what happens when they embark

1:01

on their second life today on

1:03

the show and speaking with the

1:05

co founder and Ceo of Yards

1:08

and Alison Messner. And

1:10

Twenty Eight Team. After experiencing

1:12

a devastating wild and their

1:14

neighborhood, Alison and her husband

1:17

search for a landscape designer

1:19

to help them rebuild their

1:21

scorched outdoor space. However, they

1:23

quickly recognized how slow, difficult

1:25

and expensive the typical landscape

1:27

design process was and a

1:29

light bulb went off the

1:32

to begin developing an idea

1:34

to make the process more

1:36

efficient and accessible and soon

1:38

they launched Yards. An additional

1:40

landscape design and build platform.

1:42

Today the company operates in

1:44

all fifty states with a

1:46

network of hundreds of designers

1:49

and architects, has partner with

1:51

brands like Crate and Barrel

1:53

and has raised eleven million

1:55

dollars in venture funding. But

1:57

before Allison was disrupting the

1:59

landscape. The day she reported

2:01

as a journalist and Alaska

2:03

worked. In Pr served as

2:05

Cml of the tech company

2:07

Open Dns when it was

2:09

acquired by Cisco for six

2:11

hundred thirty five million dollars

2:14

and even started her own

2:16

feces. Allison

2:18

story is beyond inspiring.

2:20

And I'll let her tell you

2:22

the rest of that for some

2:24

know on second life is Alison

2:27

missed. All

2:30

right, I'll send you a nice I'm ready.

2:32

Let's do it. x Let's sell out for

2:35

this podcast! We like to start at the

2:37

beginning. what did you study in school and

2:39

much more importantly, what is you think you're

2:41

going to be when you grew up? When.

2:44

I was a kid, I told people I

2:46

wanted to be a marine biologist, but I

2:48

don't think it was because it actually wanted

2:50

to. I think some point along the way

2:53

I figured out that was a really satisfying

2:55

way to kind of. And that conversation with

2:57

adults as the and I was told i

2:59

think like a lot of women that my

3:02

strength was writing and the arts and so

3:04

I definitely gravitated toward that if you'd asked

3:06

me probably when I was ten or twelve

3:08

what I wanted to be with that broadcast

3:11

journalist And that led me to studied journalism

3:13

in college. And okay so

3:15

your dad was attacked founder and your

3:17

mom was a silk plant pioneer which

3:20

feel sick. Incredible foreshadowing for your career

3:22

but also the same time. like what

3:24

was it like or any of them

3:26

said exactly? is a silk plant pioneer?

3:29

Tell me a little bit more about

3:31

your towel had please? Very valid question.

3:33

So my dad grew up in California

3:36

and he was actually a commercial fishermen

3:38

in Alaska for ten years. So I

3:40

was born on a little island in

3:42

Alaska called Kodiak with no. electricity or

3:45

running water south and my dad i

3:47

think being from california was really have

3:49

see to get back there was a

3:51

lot happening in the technology sector in

3:54

california and i think he felt like

3:56

he was missing out on it's my

3:58

dad's warn of a lot of hats, he's

4:00

had a lot of professional lives. After

4:03

we moved back to California,

4:05

my mom who's very into

4:07

gardening, recognized this emerging silk

4:09

plant business and started selling

4:11

silk plants. And she

4:13

had a little storefront and I worked

4:15

the cash register when I was a

4:17

kid. But my parents are both very

4:19

entrepreneurial. There was a lot of experimentation,

4:22

a lot of both successes and failures.

4:24

I witnessed them not have success in

4:26

entrepreneurship. And I think that taught me

4:28

that it's okay to fail. That's

4:30

a good modeling situation because it takes some

4:33

of the fear out, I would imagine. Yes,

4:35

it did for me, certainly. And by

4:38

the way, I didn't connect the dots on

4:40

the continuity between my mom's silk plant business

4:42

and yard zen until somebody pointed that out

4:44

to me long after I had started yard

4:46

zen. So it's not always clear to us,

4:48

right? No, but I think that's

4:51

one of the amazing things that I've

4:53

learned by hosting this podcast for so

4:55

many years is that all of these

4:57

things that we do from childhood, from

4:59

families, from things that we study, that

5:01

we might not necessarily understand how it

5:04

all ladders up, but all of those

5:06

learnings over time end up

5:08

resulting in the careers that we do have.

5:10

And it's sort of beautiful and wonderful because

5:12

it makes you realize or it has made

5:14

me realize everything leads to the next thing,

5:17

even if you don't necessarily see the clear

5:19

through line in the moment. It just

5:21

feels like nothing's really wasted, which ultimately

5:23

feels pretty optimistic. Yeah, I love that.

5:25

Couldn't agree more. Okay, so

5:28

broadcast journalist in your head, but

5:30

also grew up in a very

5:32

entrepreneurial world and then post school,

5:34

you ended up going back to

5:36

Alaska, correct? Yeah, we

5:38

left when I was three. And so I was

5:41

always very curious about it. We went back periodically

5:43

for a week or two in the summer, but

5:46

I met and fell in love with my husband's senior

5:48

year in college. He had graduated from Stanford and was

5:50

working in Sacramento, which is not far from where I

5:53

went to school. And his

5:55

dream was to be a commercial fisherman.

5:57

What? I know it was perfect. And

5:59

so I told him that I

6:01

was headed there. I got a job working

6:03

for the small daily newspaper on Kodiak Island

6:05

and he said, great, I'll come with you.

6:08

There is the idea of how a job

6:10

will be or how a life

6:13

will be and then there's the reality of it.

6:16

And sometimes those two match up perfectly. Sometimes

6:18

there's a little bit of overlap.

6:20

Sometimes they're totally different. What was

6:22

that experience like for you? Because

6:24

I feel like that is an

6:27

amazing place to learn,

6:29

especially with journalism because it's

6:31

a smaller environment, which in theory usually means that

6:33

you get to do more early on.

6:36

Was that your experience? Absolutely. I got

6:39

to interview the governor of Alaska. I

6:41

got thrown into the biggest news stories

6:43

coming out of the state. I

6:45

loved that experience. I was so passionate

6:47

about it. I loved being part of

6:50

a newsroom. I loved the daily deadlines.

6:52

I'm not an early morning person, but

6:54

I loved getting up early. I loved

6:56

seeing my bylines. It was so incredibly

6:58

fulfilling. I am biased

7:00

because my background and still the way

7:02

I self identify is as a journalist,

7:05

but I'm wondering if there were any

7:07

skills that you learned in that formative

7:09

first job that have

7:11

had application to the rest of your career.

7:14

A hundred percent. It taught me to

7:16

listen, taught me to be curious, to

7:18

slow down. Everybody has a

7:20

story. I believe that journalists are

7:22

professional generalists. You have to very quickly

7:24

become an expert in whatever it is

7:27

that you're writing about. There was a beetle

7:29

infestation in the spruce trees in Alaska while

7:31

I was there. I had to become an

7:33

expert in that. There were

7:35

some very contentious policy initiatives. I

7:37

had to become expert in local

7:39

politics. So I loved

7:42

that. I loved the process of interviewing

7:44

people. Everybody is interesting. Everybody

7:46

has a story. You just have to find it.

7:49

So how long did you end up staying

7:51

in that job and what made you feel

7:53

like it was time to move on?

7:56

Yeah, just a year. I think the reason I

7:58

was so ready to move on is I'm very...

8:00

ambitious. I'm very entrepreneurial. We were living

8:02

on an island with no electricity or running

8:04

water in a little cabin, an hour

8:06

outside of town in a little village,

8:09

and the isolation was both wonderful but

8:11

also gave me a little bit of

8:14

anxiety. I was newly graduated from college

8:16

and ready to sort of run, and

8:18

the opportunities are somewhat limited in an

8:20

environment like that. So I came back

8:22

and very quickly immersed myself in the

8:25

technology industry. I had grown up around

8:27

the tech industry, and again, like when

8:29

my dad came back to California from

8:31

Alaska, similar things were happening.

8:33

And so I started in PR. So

8:36

PR is sort of a natural transition

8:38

point out of journalism and into business,

8:41

and I did that for two years.

8:43

It was a wonderful experience. I did

8:45

public relations for Adobe systems, for a

8:48

very cool company that maybe you're familiar

8:50

with called Pantone and learned about the

8:52

business of color. I

8:54

got to do PR for really

8:56

cool companies that were making robotics

8:59

and early artificial intelligence applications, and

9:01

it was through that experience that I saw

9:04

the people that were building the businesses

9:06

themselves and started to get pretty interested and

9:08

curious about whether I could do that and

9:10

what that would be like. It felt a

9:13

little like I was on the sidelines on

9:15

the periphery of where the really interesting stuff

9:17

was happening, but it was through that experience

9:19

that I gained that interest and curiosity

9:22

and really confidence to take the plunge. Talk

9:25

to me about that journalism to PR pivot,

9:27

because it is something that we see a

9:29

lot of. It goes both ways, though primarily

9:31

I feel like journalists to PR. What

9:33

was the same? What was different? And how

9:35

did you adapt? Because even when skill sets

9:38

have a great deal of overlap, there's still

9:40

a learning curve. So

9:42

to describe the feeling initially, I would

9:44

say I felt pretty disloyal. There's this

9:46

sort of sense of separation of church

9:48

and state, and I wouldn't be the first person

9:51

to reference going into PR as going over to

9:53

the dark side. I have

9:55

so much love and so much passion for

9:57

the profession of journalism. It plays such an

9:59

important role. role in society. And with

10:01

all that said, journalism has changed a

10:03

lot. And even then, when I was

10:05

making these decisions, I could see the

10:08

writing on the wall. Journalism was changing

10:10

a lot. Also, you know,

10:12

needs to be mentioned as part of

10:14

the discussion. Journalists are not fairly compensated

10:16

in a lot of cases. And so

10:19

there's a lot of economic upside to

10:21

moving over to PR. So it felt

10:23

like PR let me stay close to

10:25

journalism, but also participate in some of

10:27

the economic upside that was available to other people

10:30

around me. Yeah, it pays a

10:32

lot more. That's

10:35

important. So you also

10:37

worked with influencer and product reviews

10:39

programs through Adobe. Please walk me

10:41

through this, because if my research

10:43

is right, this is in the

10:45

early aughts. Influencers, that wasn't a

10:47

thing in the way that is

10:49

today. So I'm so interested in

10:51

how you thought through that piece

10:53

of work and what the landscape

10:56

was like then. Yeah,

10:58

so I had a phenomenal team. There was

11:00

a team of three of us at Adobe.

11:03

And the way that we really thought of

11:05

influencer was sort of the evolution of product

11:07

placement. So prior to this, there was this

11:09

notion of product placement, where a company would

11:11

pay to have their product be featured on a

11:14

TV show, for example, the example I always go

11:16

back to CSI, you know, in

11:18

like the early mid aughts, there

11:20

would be on a computer screen, very

11:22

recognizable version of Photoshop. And it

11:24

was clear that that was Photoshop,

11:26

right? As the internet sort

11:28

of took hold, you didn't need CSI

11:31

as a platform for that to happen,

11:33

because people were able to communicate through

11:35

their own channels on social media. And

11:37

again, very new. But we were recognizing that

11:40

there were people that were developing these big

11:42

audiences on social media platforms. And so we

11:44

were pretty swift to identify who those people

11:46

were. The education sector is very important to

11:49

Adobe or was at the time, there were

11:51

people that worked in education that we recognized

11:53

as very influential that we wanted to make

11:56

sure we're expert in our products. And so

11:58

that's sort of how we approach. influencer.

12:01

And then product reviews was a

12:03

separate program. It was just very

12:05

important to Adobe to make sure

12:07

that if a review occurred it

12:09

was authentically positive. And so we worked

12:11

directly with the people that were developing the products

12:14

to make sure that the products were great. And

12:16

that's atypical for PR to be so

12:18

deeply ingrained in the development process. But

12:20

again kudos to Adobe for being so

12:22

pioneering in that area. So

12:24

ahead of the game that is incredible.

12:27

I mean like these are things that are top

12:29

of mind in 2024. So 20 years ago,

12:33

I mean that's revolutionary in so

12:35

many ways. Agreed. So how long

12:37

did you stay in that job?

12:40

Two years to the day. I was told

12:42

that in any consulting role like working in

12:44

a PR agency or working in management consulting

12:46

you need to put in two years. This

12:49

is pretty antiquated thinking at this point but

12:51

you need to put in two years if

12:53

you leave before two years it's not going

12:55

to reflect positively. And so two years to

12:57

the day. What was

12:59

your plan and also how long had

13:02

you been thinking about that resignation? I

13:05

knew probably about six

13:07

months in that this wasn't going to

13:10

be a long-term role for me. The

13:12

PR agency I worked for is phenomenal.

13:14

They still are phenomenal. They were acquired

13:16

by Edelman, one of the largest PR

13:19

agencies in the country to basically become

13:21

their technology practice. Amazing. Yes and so

13:23

much upward mobility but not enough upward

13:25

mobility for me at that age. Where

13:27

did this ambition come from? I love

13:30

it. It's something that's

13:32

been deeply ingrained in me. When I was

13:34

seven years old I would knock on my

13:37

neighbor's doors and ask if they had any work for

13:39

me to do. I've always loved to work and I've

13:41

always loved to create and I've always loved to own.

13:44

When you're thinking through okay there's upward mobility

13:46

but not enough were you thinking in terms

13:49

of financial or power or

13:51

affecting change? Like what part were

13:53

you really interested in? It

13:56

was affecting change and just

13:58

ownership of strategy. and

14:00

the work that I did. There was

14:02

a list, for example, at that PR

14:04

firm of journalists that I would have

14:06

never been allowed to contact just because

14:09

of my level, despite proving that I

14:11

was very capable. So I think

14:13

structure that might be necessary in an

14:15

environment like that, where you have so

14:17

many people organized by team, but it

14:19

wasn't the environment that was most conducive

14:21

to my personal success and fulfillment. Got

14:23

it. I see what you're saying. Okay,

14:25

so two years there, what was the

14:27

plan in your head for your next

14:30

move? Were you thinking, okay, immediately

14:32

to a startup, less corporate, a

14:34

lot more impactful, kind of

14:36

scrappier in some ways, almost more like

14:39

the journalism days, right? Yeah,

14:41

I think scrappy is a great word.

14:43

So, Jumpship joined a startup, didn't last

14:46

very long there, probably three or four

14:48

months, because I got the opportunity of

14:50

a lifetime. Through a family friend, I

14:52

met a wonderfully talented, incredibly capable person

14:55

named David Ulevich, who is now a

14:57

partner at Andreessen Horowitz and doing amazing

14:59

things. And over a

15:01

beer in San Francisco, we were 22, I

15:03

think at the time, he said, I'm starting

15:06

a company. Would you like to come and

15:08

check out our office and just

15:10

see what it's all about? And

15:12

the company OpenDNS was effectively being started

15:14

in an incubator. It was well-funded by

15:16

one individual slash fund, and they assembled

15:19

10 of us. I was very lucky

15:21

to be one of those people. It

15:23

was sort of right place in right

15:26

time and was thrown

15:28

into entrepreneurship at 22, 23 years old. And

15:31

it was absolutely amazing and the

15:33

perfect environment for me and just

15:35

the perfect next step in life. Okay,

15:38

talk to me about the company. What was

15:40

your role? What was the company doing? What

15:42

felt like such a good fit? So,

15:44

the thing that felt most exciting was

15:46

just being there at inception and being

15:49

able to shape everything about this company.

15:51

The idea was also brilliant. So,

15:53

at the time, this is before the Chrome

15:55

web browser and before you could type

15:57

a word into an address bar. and

16:00

it would take you to the logical next step.

16:02

It used to be the case that if you typed

16:04

something into the address bar that was not a full

16:06

domain, even if it was a typo of

16:08

the domain that you were trying to get to, it

16:10

would take you to a 404 error page. Do

16:13

you remember that? Yes. There were

16:15

dead ends on the internet everywhere. Everything

16:17

was a dead end. It was so

16:19

annoying. So not user friendly. Yes,

16:22

so the idea was basically to

16:24

open up and monetize the dead

16:26

ends of the internet and in

16:28

the process make the internet smarter,

16:30

safer, faster, more reliable. And

16:32

so the idea was brilliant. I

16:34

was the only non-engineer on the

16:36

team for at least the first few years. So

16:39

my role was everything that was not engineering. It

16:41

was everything outwork-facing sales and

16:43

marketing and business development and

16:45

partnerships and product. And it

16:48

was incredible. So

16:51

that is a lot of hats

16:53

to wear. And as a generalist,

16:55

I'm sure that was very fulfilling

16:57

and exciting, but what parts were

17:00

you prepared for? What parts were

17:02

surprising or challenging? Because

17:04

that feels, yes, exciting, but also a

17:06

little daunting at the same time. I

17:09

think my greatest strength was not knowing

17:11

what I didn't know. And not

17:14

knowing that I had no business doing a lot

17:16

of the things that I was doing, because

17:18

it turned out I did. And if I'd maybe

17:21

been in an environment for longer where I was

17:23

told that I didn't have any business doing

17:25

it, I might not have done it. But I

17:27

would say the thing I was most prepared for

17:29

was definitely PR, because I had two years

17:31

in a really elite PR environment learning how to

17:34

do that. And so we grew the business very

17:36

efficiently. We didn't spend any money on marketing,

17:38

frankly, because I didn't know how to deploy performance

17:40

marketing dollars. We grew the business

17:42

to very healthy revenue without spending any

17:45

money on marketing for I think the first three

17:47

years. And did great, I mean,

17:49

fast forward. Eight years later, we sold the business

17:51

to Cisco, the technology behemoth for $635 million. It

17:55

was a wildly successful outcome. And

17:57

just like a dream of a first

17:59

four. into entrepreneurship. I

18:02

mean that is crazy and you

18:05

must have been so wildly proud of

18:07

that. I mean that's just outrageous. The

18:10

room that we were in when the

18:12

CEO of Cisco came before the entire

18:14

Open DNS team and told us how

18:16

excited he was to join forces and

18:18

to have Open DNS be part of

18:21

his company, I can put myself back

18:23

in that room. Yeah it's completely surreal

18:25

to reflect back on the moment that

18:27

the logo was created and coming

18:29

up with names for products and all of

18:32

the you know hiring and all the experiences

18:34

that you go through. I mean I'm sure

18:36

you can relate. Creating something out of nothing

18:38

is a pretty wild experience. Talk

18:41

to me about managing throughout all of this

18:43

because obviously you started when the team was

18:45

teensy tiny. As time goes on it has

18:47

to grow. Managing is something

18:50

that comes I feel like naturally to some

18:52

people is more of a learning curve for

18:54

others. How did you feel about that piece

18:56

of it? Managing, hiring, like building out teams,

18:58

all of that stuff. Massive

19:00

learning curve for me. Absolutely.

19:02

I made so many mistakes.

19:05

I thought that I had to show up

19:07

a certain way and present a certain way

19:10

and be authoritative. I mean I definitely learned

19:13

the hard way. I'm still learning. I'm learning

19:15

every day. I mean it's very difficult and

19:17

every single person requires a different

19:20

methodology and sort of approach to

19:22

management and so there's no one

19:24

size fits all version of management.

19:28

Yeah I often think of it like

19:30

yoga like it's an ongoing practice. Like

19:32

there's no destination when it comes to

19:34

managing. It's not like you get to

19:36

a certain point you're like well I'm

19:38

perfect at this. I've learned everything I

19:40

need to know and I can manage

19:42

anyone and everyone going forward. A hundred

19:44

percent. So you have this great acquisition.

19:46

What was in your head about next

19:49

steps? Were you planning on staying on?

19:51

Was it immediate like okay now we've

19:53

had this event. It's proof of concept.

19:55

I'm gonna move on and start something

19:57

of my own. Where was your headspace? that

20:00

moment. So in the technology

20:02

industry oftentimes if you are an operator

20:05

in a role like that and you

20:07

have a success under your belt, there's

20:09

a lot of gravitational pull to go

20:11

into investing and support other companies that

20:13

are on that journey. So that's the

20:15

direction that I went. I was recruited

20:17

by a couple of funds to come

20:19

join as a partner and ultimately decided

20:21

to actually start my own. So started

20:23

a venture fund with one of the

20:25

first investors in open DNS. And the

20:27

idea was parallel entrepreneurship. So we had

20:29

a small venture fund, but we were

20:31

going to build several companies ourselves and

20:34

we were going to hire in talent

20:36

and just sort of like foster and

20:38

grow the companies. And we

20:40

were very successful out of the gate.

20:42

We had great ideas. Everything was going

20:45

well. Ultimately, it did not succeed. And

20:47

that's okay. I learned a ton through

20:49

that process. Some of the companies actually

20:51

went on to do quite well, but

20:54

the fund itself did not. I

20:56

learned a lot about the importance of partnership

20:59

and how to step into a partnership.

21:01

I probably didn't think through all of the

21:03

things before I took the plunge. For

21:06

someone who is ambitious

21:09

and who had enjoyed

21:11

success, was that difficult? Honestly,

21:15

no, because I feel like everything is

21:17

a learning and I knew

21:19

how important it was to just keep moving

21:21

forward. Take the lessons and keep

21:23

going. Absolutely. So at that

21:26

point, were you thinking about

21:28

starting YardZen? When did that

21:30

come into your brain?

21:33

Yeah, so the idea for YardZen was born

21:36

out of a personal experience. I had never

21:38

done anything in direct to consumer. YardZen has

21:40

a very strong direct to consumer element. So

21:42

I wasn't even thinking really about direct

21:44

to consumer, but my husband and I bought

21:47

a great 100 year old farm house

21:49

in the wine country in California in an

21:51

awesome little town called Calistoga. And we were

21:54

there late one night. This is October 2017.

21:57

And I had gone to bed with the kids and

21:59

we My husband woke me up, he was

22:01

running through the house, flipping on all the lights.

22:04

There was a wildfire that was so

22:06

close. All of our neighbor's houses, save

22:09

for a couple, were already on fire

22:11

by the time we figured out that

22:13

the fire was close. Oh my God.

22:16

So it was a emergency evacuation situation.

22:18

No warning. It was grab the

22:21

kids with the clothes we have on. You're

22:23

running for your lives, 100%. So

22:26

where we live, we're in a valley just

22:28

above the Napa Valley floor and there are

22:30

visibly three ways out of the valley. Two

22:33

were clearly not an option because they

22:35

were engulfed in flames. So we had

22:37

one option. It was a harrowing night,

22:40

something my kids will never forget. They

22:42

were little. For anybody who's

22:44

lived through a wildfire, they know it's

22:46

pretty indescribable. But we came back a

22:49

couple days later and we

22:51

were shocked to find out that our house

22:53

had survived the fire. Large

22:55

thanks to my husband and his diligence. He

22:58

had turned on sprinklers as we were evacuating

23:00

and really had cared for the property of

23:02

the yard very well. Oh, that's,

23:04

I mean, like horrible and so devastating.

23:06

And also that's wild. I

23:09

can't imagine like the

23:11

relief and survivor's remorse of

23:13

that to some degree. Both. Yes,

23:15

both. I mean, it felt like nothing short

23:18

of a miracle, but yes, for sure. Lots

23:20

of different emotions. But the

23:22

fire burned right up to the house.

23:24

So melted rain gutters, outbuildings, the

23:26

fence around the property. So when we came

23:28

back, there were still spot fires burning all

23:31

over the property. And if you can imagine

23:33

the sort of apocalyptic engulfed in smoke,

23:35

fire still burning. But

23:37

we had now a house on a

23:40

patch of scorched earth and we

23:42

had to rebuild it. And we have

23:44

always been DIYers. We'd never hired a

23:46

landscape architect before, but we were committed

23:48

to hiring a designer or an architect

23:50

because it's a big swath of land.

23:53

And we just thought we got to do this

23:55

right. And so we just put one foot in

23:58

front of the other and just started the process

24:00

of. rebuilding our outdoor space and

24:02

found somebody as geographically far away in

24:05

the United States from us as possible. Her

24:07

name was Anna and she was in Miami. She

24:09

said at first, no, no, no, I don't want

24:11

this job. It can't be done. And I convinced

24:13

her. I sent her

24:15

links to USGS, US

24:18

Geological Survey data, which can capture

24:20

the topography of your property. The

24:22

planting zone. So every property sits

24:24

in a planting zone. I told

24:27

her a little bit about the

24:29

sun and shade patterns. We're lucky

24:31

to be under these beautiful majestic

24:34

California Oaks. I made sure to

24:36

photograph all of the existing trees and

24:38

photographed the property from several different angles.

24:40

I thought video might be helpful. So

24:43

I took a video walking around the

24:45

property and talking through what I envisioned.

24:47

And then I sent her inspiration images.

24:50

I showed her yards that I'd like

24:52

to come on Pinterest. Also

24:54

the level of maintenance that we wanted to

24:57

commit to. I wrote a

24:59

paragraph describing how we would live

25:01

in our yard in an ideal

25:03

scenario, described my kids playing and

25:05

my husband and I relaxing with a glass of

25:07

wine with friends over. So it was a brief

25:10

and she created a beautiful design that

25:12

we installed that we still enjoy today.

25:14

And so after sort of

25:16

proved this is something you can do

25:18

online, despite the dynamic nature of outdoor

25:21

spaces, we were off to the races.

25:23

So had you not connected with anyone

25:25

locally? Was that part of what was going on?

25:27

You interviewed people and gone through it and it

25:29

just wasn't landing. I had

25:32

interviewed people locally. The standard process

25:34

for landscape architecture is quite long

25:36

and quite involved. Walk

25:38

me through it, please. Yeah. So in my

25:40

experience, this might be different for other people.

25:43

In my experience, it was going to cost

25:45

$10,000, $20,000 to hire

25:47

a landscape architect to come up with

25:49

a plan. It was going to be

25:51

months of time. The entire property needed

25:53

to be plotted. Again, the property is

25:56

a hundred years old, has outbuildings That

25:58

were built a long time ago. We're

26:00

not reflected in the plans that we

26:02

had and so it was a very

26:04

thorough process and everybody I spoke to

26:06

was very committed and convinced that the

26:08

thorough process was the way to do

26:10

it. Also the deliverable in some cases

26:12

was a pencil sketch. I'm a visual

26:14

person and needed to see something more

26:16

visible side. The seeping this idea in

26:18

my head of with the perfect deliverable

26:20

would be for me. It would be

26:22

pretty quick, I would get to me

26:24

within a week. it would be hyper

26:26

visual and it wouldn't require all of

26:28

this time and money. That's what I

26:30

needed to greenlight A projects. See. Gone

26:33

to this yourself and then you found this person

26:35

in Miami. Why did you know she was the

26:37

right person? Other than that, you eventually were able

26:39

to convince or was it that you left her

26:41

taste, her style, her work, For. Her

26:43

work was beautiful and Donna Sensors a didn't

26:45

know she was the right person. I think

26:47

you have to have an experimentation mindset and

26:50

be okay with that. not working but hopeful

26:52

that it will censor what was the proposition

26:54

that you gave her. He said i know

26:56

you're a Miami I don't want if I

26:58

you hour ago wanted to the sick long

27:01

involved saying i want to send you all

27:03

of this information and just see what you

27:05

come up with yep exactly as you that

27:07

you're crazy to appoint a little bit and

27:09

then came around and said okay we'll give

27:11

it a shot and didn't. Work the way

27:14

that you thought it would absolutely exactly

27:16

like I thought it would and how

27:18

long to that process take some the

27:20

time you submitted on that information and

27:22

tell she came back to listen phone.

27:24

says. Interesting. It's not dissimilar at all to the

27:27

wizards and works. Today was about a week. And

27:30

what did you do from this? Now you have

27:32

all these plans. How does one actually move on executing

27:34

at. So. Then we started

27:36

contacting contractors. So now we have a

27:38

plan have a vision which effectively as

27:41

a communication. Tool that you can use that

27:43

the contractor to. Convey what you're trying to

27:45

do. The contractors loved that. Said designs

27:47

were both in photo realistic three D

27:49

renders. That's a really important part of

27:51

this process. Again, I asked Honor to

27:53

make sure that she rendered that defines

27:55

not just give me the plan view

27:58

as we had contractors come out. Forbidding

28:00

so with yards and we have a

28:02

network of vetted contractors. We have contractor

28:04

partners in all fifty states and so

28:06

in the back my mind as I

28:08

was thinking about the ideal offering for

28:10

people that are not me. If we

28:12

were gonna build this for other people

28:14

that would be a really important part.

28:17

Yellow as I was betting contractors myself

28:19

I was looking at yelped and and

28:21

it's listen all the places where you

28:23

might go to read reviews and understand

28:25

other people's experience. Hiring that contractor, I

28:27

was looking up their license to

28:29

make sure that the relations with

28:32

currents and Japanese stricter and. So

28:34

from their you hired the contractor

28:37

and then how long does it

28:39

take to actually have your. Yard.

28:42

We ended up building in phases that

28:44

we started with the most important area

28:46

right off the house and that took

28:48

about a month so from start to

28:50

finish it was pretty quick. That.

28:52

Is wild on so many levels and

28:54

so exciting. At what point in that

28:57

journey were you saying to think this

28:59

is a business. They to buy.

29:01

I couldn't help but think as we

29:03

got. Into where there's gotta be a

29:06

better way to do this and get

29:08

just the amount of time consumed by

29:10

going up to the property to meet

29:12

people on say than waiting weeks for

29:14

them to come back with a plan

29:16

and all of the plotting of the

29:18

entire property despite as not wanting to

29:20

design the entire property and I could

29:23

tell it wasn't great for the designers

29:25

and architects either, wasn't just my frustration.

29:27

I thought somebody needs to innovate here

29:29

and make this process easier for everybody

29:31

and so you know my has been

29:33

an Arab. Millennial parents of young kids

29:35

that love soup live outside and I

29:38

had a lot of confidence that there

29:40

are lots of other people that are

29:42

just like my. Has been an eye

29:44

that would really appreciate the guidance through

29:46

this process so that they could have

29:48

a beautiful functional outdoor space. And there's

29:51

so much data that says being in

29:53

green space leads to wellness way. Also

29:55

just felt good about. And nibbling that

29:57

for other people. That. Make sense and

29:59

also like. What an industry to just be

30:01

a has very old fashioned in so

30:03

many ways that doesn't have to be

30:06

so you have the idea. At What

30:08

point did you say thinking through names?

30:10

At what point did he said thinking

30:12

through, I'm going to come on this

30:14

with my husband. That so short

30:16

answer is right. about bought a domain

30:19

I'm a big believer in just make

30:21

it real. Ah, if anybody's listening and

30:23

contemplating starting a company, that's always my

30:26

advice. Given a name, breathe life into

30:28

it, and having a domain is actually

30:30

a very legitimizing thing. I think for

30:33

an entrepreneur because you have a thing

30:35

that is tangible, be all that exists

30:37

outside your brain that you can look

30:39

that and put people to and start

30:42

nurturing and developing. So Yards and.com was

30:44

available and it wasn't too expensive. For

30:46

that was like are only startup cost

30:49

really. Was buying the domain straight and

30:51

we built it on square space which

30:53

was such a wonderful platform and really

30:56

can create such a professional, legitimate looking

30:58

website in like days. So built the

31:00

site and then launched on next door

31:02

in our little neighborhood and said we

31:05

have a start up and we have

31:07

a beta of this landscape design product

31:09

and within twenty four hours with thirty

31:12

two people in our little neighborhood that

31:14

a pita is arbitrary dollar. Amount and

31:16

Burma we just had Ana we have the

31:18

demands and now we had to solve for

31:21

the supplies so felt actually like a big

31:23

problems if we had to go create Thirty

31:25

two Landscape Design and again I'm not a

31:27

landscape design or I didn't have the ability

31:29

to just create them myself. We had to

31:31

go find designers who could forget I mean

31:34

yards and had a media. Products market

31:36

said from the get go which was

31:38

awesome. So what was that

31:40

initial offer? What was the proposition was

31:42

it just slides will give you the

31:44

design and then you go off and

31:46

execute with your own general contractor. What

31:48

were you thinking about? That workflow? Yes,

31:51

said they're offering rate from the

31:53

beginning was that we were going

31:55

to design and then also broker

31:57

introductions between you and contractors and

31:59

my husband adam who's wonderful. He

32:01

went and became a licensed landscape

32:04

contractor. Stop it. Yeah,

32:06

he went and took the test and became

32:08

licensed. And he, since

32:10

the beginning, has managed that side of

32:12

our business. So today he's the general

32:14

manager of our build operations team. So

32:17

he oversees the pro network. But

32:19

yeah, so appreciated his willingness to really

32:21

roll up his sleeves. And he actually

32:24

put together a crew and installed

32:26

a couple of the first designs that we

32:28

created that were local to us and learned a ton

32:30

in the process. How did you think

32:32

through pricing? Such a good

32:34

question. There are people that are absolute craftsmen

32:37

and women at pricing. I am not one

32:39

of them. So it was totally gut instinct.

32:41

I felt strongly that we needed to have

32:43

something at a pretty low price point. So

32:46

we had one design offering that was just

32:48

a planting plan that was $249, which is

32:50

wildly disruptive to the

32:53

industry. It's a very low price. And then I

32:55

also felt strongly that we needed something under $1,000.

32:57

So we had the next package at $9.95 and

33:01

then the most expensive package at $1,395. And our

33:05

pricing is not all that different today. We

33:07

do some experimentation with pricing, but we should

33:09

probably do more. And that's a big opportunity

33:12

for us as a startup

33:14

and a disrupter to introduce more

33:16

transparency. Even in design, oftentimes you

33:18

pay a designer by the hour,

33:21

or you pay a percentage of the

33:23

materials or furniture, whatever it is that

33:25

they buy for you. And so I

33:27

think it can be a little confusing

33:29

for a consumer to understand how to

33:32

pay for design. We've always just had

33:34

a flat fee with no upcharges. We

33:36

collect all of it up front. We're

33:38

very clear about what you're going to get. And

33:40

that approach has worked for us so far. Okay.

33:43

So you launch in beta, the neighbors

33:46

know, folks aren't signing up.

33:48

The New York Times then factors

33:50

in here. You got a reporter

33:52

to review the company. How did

33:55

that happen? And what was the

33:57

impact? Yeah. So I just pitched her

33:59

and I Again, advice to anybody, just

34:01

send a page. Just drag. It

34:03

took several emails. I think I sent her

34:05

seven emails without a response. And then

34:08

she finally responded and she said, okay,

34:10

I'll do it. And I was shocked

34:12

and excited. And she went through our

34:14

design process anonymously. So we didn't know

34:16

who it was going through the process.

34:18

So that's amazing. Wait, how long had

34:20

you been in business when this all

34:23

happened? Three months. Oh,

34:25

so you're still like working out the kinks in theory.

34:28

Oh, 100%. So you have an

34:30

anonymous New York Times reporter going through

34:32

the process. At this point,

34:34

were they based in California? How are you thinking

34:36

about the state piece of it? So

34:39

perhaps did not approach this the right way and

34:41

maybe would have done it differently. Almost for sure

34:43

would have done it differently. We figured we would

34:45

get the press in the New York Times and

34:47

then we would figure everything else out after that.

34:50

So at this point, we weren't limiting our

34:52

offering to just the county that we were

34:54

in, which absolutely would have been the right

34:56

way to go to market to start small

34:58

and expand. So the New

35:01

York Times hits and the New York

35:03

Times has a wonderful international readership. So

35:05

not only did we get a

35:07

lot of business from states

35:09

across the United States, we got

35:11

international orders coming in. And

35:14

so we were having to on

35:16

the fly come up to

35:18

speed on local flora in

35:20

Dubai. We did designs in

35:22

Europe and that didn't last for very long.

35:24

We had to say we absolutely cannot confidently

35:26

serve these clients, but really an indication into

35:29

mindset and how we were drinking from a

35:31

fire hose and we were just going to

35:33

figure out how to make it work. So

35:36

tell me about what the aftermath of that was

35:38

like. Yes, you're getting business from all over the

35:41

place. At that point, do you have a team

35:43

in place? How are you thinking about scaling? How

35:45

are you thinking about like delivering on all of

35:47

this in a timely fashion? Because I feel overwhelmed

35:49

and I'm just hearing about it. Yes,

35:51

it was incredibly overwhelming. We had hired one

35:54

person. So it was my husband and I

35:56

and our very first hire Alana and we

35:58

were in a little tiny audience. office above

36:00

a karate dojo. And we were

36:03

managing all of these client projects on a

36:05

whiteboard. We came up with a system to

36:07

assign a code. We actually got

36:09

through that period quite well. I mean,

36:11

it was very stressful, but we had to

36:13

build systems that allowed us to scale up

36:15

and I'm sure you know, with press, you

36:17

get this like blip and then things kind

36:20

of settle a little bit, but it established

36:22

a new baseline for us. So it was

36:24

a forcing function to start building foundational things

36:26

that let us scale and then a couple

36:28

of months after that, we decided to go

36:30

raise venture capital money. And how

36:32

did that go? It went

36:34

pretty well. Raising a seed

36:37

round, we pitched four or five investors and

36:39

we got two yeses. Our series A

36:41

was definitely more challenging, but you

36:43

know, we had the numbers to

36:45

support this narrative that Yardham was

36:47

a venture scale business or had the potential to be

36:50

a venture scale business. And so that's what we

36:52

did. And what was the

36:54

plan for the money? Because as

36:56

our audience knows, like if you do decide

36:58

to go the venture route, it unlocks a

37:00

lot of doors and opens a lot of

37:02

doors, but then there's also a pressure and

37:05

a ticking clock on making good on all

37:07

of the vision that you have pitched. So

37:09

how did that transform the business? Yeah,

37:13

it introduces a tremendous amount of pressure. You

37:15

know, when we started the business, we had

37:17

conviction that we were not going to raise

37:19

outside money, but it just became clear that

37:21

in order for us to scale the way

37:24

we wanted to scale, we needed to hire

37:26

engineers. We needed to build a technology platform.

37:28

There wasn't anything right out of the box

37:30

that we could use for our purpose. The

37:32

workflow was so unique and there were lots

37:34

of things about what we were doing that

37:37

didn't lend to using something that we didn't

37:39

build. So yeah, we started hiring engineers. That

37:41

was how we started deploying the money. We

37:43

were pretty conservative for the first year, but

37:45

yeah, a lot of pressure. It changed the

37:47

company and kind of the way we were

37:49

operating pretty dramatically. So

37:52

walk me through what the process

37:54

is like today and how it's

37:56

changed from the client side, from.

38:00

that beta testing moment. Yeah,

38:02

so we have built the technology platform that

38:05

did not exist. So when

38:07

our first clients were onboarding to

38:09

Yardzen, everything happened over email. So

38:11

now everything is on rails, it's

38:14

platform end to end. Contractor

38:16

introductions happen on platform. We

38:18

now have messaging built in,

38:20

payments, reviewing of invoices, it's

38:22

a much more supportive process

38:24

for our clients from start

38:26

to finish and also for

38:28

designers and contractors. In

38:30

any business, there are pain points that come

38:33

up along the way. What have some

38:35

of those major learnings or turning points been

38:37

throughout this process? Yeah,

38:39

so Yardzen was a crying infant of a

38:41

baby when the world shut down in 2020.

38:45

We had teed up all of our Series A

38:47

pitches in March 2020 and

38:49

they were all in person. No. Yeah,

38:52

and they all shifted to Zoom

38:54

meetings. And there was a moment

38:56

there where we were wondering what

38:58

is gonna happen. Contractors weren't allowed

39:00

to work at first. And

39:02

then they were deemed essential businesses and then

39:04

it started opening up a little bit, but

39:06

it was a scary time. We thought this

39:08

could be the end. And then

39:10

it turned out that we were actually

39:13

a highly COVID accelerated business because the

39:15

only green space people could access was

39:17

their yards. People were very motivated to

39:20

make them beautiful. And we had this

39:22

digital process that really lent itself nicely

39:24

to that time. And I say that

39:26

with a keen awareness of the pain

39:29

and suffering that a lot of people

39:31

endured during that time. But yeah, having

39:33

acceleration like that and then

39:35

not having continued acceleration at

39:37

that rate has been really changing.

39:40

And anybody who had a business that was

39:42

COVID accelerated can 100% relate to that. Some

39:46

really beloved brands, like I think about Peloton

39:48

and what a great product that is and

39:50

the great product market fit that they have

39:52

that they just couldn't sustain at the

39:55

level of demand that they saw during COVID. And

39:57

when you sort of build your

39:59

business. The support that level of demand and

40:01

then the demand doesn't continue. That club. it's

40:04

very challenging said I would say that's than

40:06

our biggest challenge. I

40:08

mean, which makes so much sense

40:10

and I think it's something that

40:12

almost all businesses probably went through

40:15

to some degree or another. I

40:17

also want to talk about sustainability

40:19

because that's obviously such a key

40:21

component of your business, and I'm

40:24

wondering how he thought through that

40:26

piece of that's how you try

40:28

to educate your clients about making

40:30

informed decisions in that way. Touch

40:32

me. that sustainability. From.

40:35

The beginning we recognized that we

40:37

have a lot of opportunity to

40:39

do good if yards and worked

40:41

with kind of our perspective if

40:43

this works. If this is successful,

40:45

it is one hundred percent our

40:48

responsibility to make educating our clients

40:50

about responsible decisions. Table Six has

40:52

to. Be a core part of what we do.

40:54

There are a hundred and thirty

40:56

million residential lots in the United States.

40:59

Imagine if everybody planted habitat supporting

41:01

plants. Not a ton of them, but

41:03

one two three habitat supporting players.

41:05

Are we talking that like native local

41:07

plan? So what exactly does that

41:09

mean? Yes, so the word that

41:12

a lot of people use to describe

41:14

the good plants that we want that

41:16

contribute positively to climate or notice. But

41:18

there are lots of plants that are

41:21

actually not natives. It's still do a

41:23

lot of good. they can become acclimated.

41:25

so a lot of the plants that

41:27

we have here in our yard in

41:29

California are not necessarily native to California,

41:32

but they've become climate adopted overtime. And

41:34

they also have this other wonderful benefit

41:36

of providing habitat for birds and bees

41:38

and butterflies. And it's just a wonderful.

41:41

contribution that everybody can make and it's

41:43

not a big contribution like that's a

41:45

really easy one there's also a lot

41:47

of decisions around water that are really

41:49

important on the west coast obviously low

41:52

water is really important there's a lot

41:54

of parts of the united states were

41:56

flooding is a big concern and some

41:58

making sure that drainage works properly

42:00

on your property so that you

42:03

don't contribute to flooding is important.

42:05

There are in big cities heat

42:07

islands. So planting trees

42:09

can actually make cities more livable

42:11

and this is not even getting

42:13

into material decisions. We partnered

42:15

with some amazing companies that make

42:17

composite decking that is made

42:20

from recycled plastic and is

42:22

also recyclable. There are endless ways that

42:24

we can educate our clients about about

42:27

making positive decisions. So that's baked into

42:29

our process. We also started something called

42:31

the American rewilding project right when we

42:33

started yards end that's our commitment to

42:35

including two to three habitat supporting plants

42:38

in every project we designed. So again,

42:40

not a huge lift. I thought it

42:42

was important to make it not a

42:44

big commitment because the bigger

42:47

ask I think the less

42:49

likely you're going to be successful. If

42:51

you make the ask quite small then people are

42:53

more likely to say yes. 98%

42:55

of our clients opt in to the American rewilding

42:57

project, but also the other wonderful benefit it has

43:00

is it starts a dialogue. So they say yes,

43:02

and then they say what else can I do?

43:04

Got it. I appreciate how

43:06

considered it is because I

43:09

don't know that that is top of

43:11

mind for everyone. It should be obviously

43:13

I think people think about water consumption

43:16

with their choices, but not necessarily what

43:18

is local or adaptable. So

43:21

that is such a wonderful

43:23

aspect of the business. I love that.

43:25

Thank you very much. Okay,

43:28

so this went from solving

43:30

your own personal problem to

43:33

a thriving business

43:35

that operates in 50 states. You

43:38

are doing amazing work and have given

43:40

work to hundreds of

43:42

designers and architects. You've

43:45

also partnered with major brands like Crate

43:47

and Barrel. As you were

43:49

thinking towards the future, what

43:52

gets you really excited? What do you want to

43:54

do? What does success look like? Where do you

43:56

want to go? What Keeps

43:59

me incredibly excited? That about yards

44:01

and is the possibility to expands

44:03

the number of people that get

44:05

to experience it because I know

44:07

how amazing it as. But I

44:10

also know not everybody is interested

44:12

or can spends a thousand dollars

44:14

seventeen hundred dollars on a design

44:16

experience. So our business lends itself

44:18

very nicely to Generative A and

44:21

I am a firm believer that

44:23

A as not going to replace

44:25

see a Man brilliance designers and

44:27

architects. but there's a lot of.

44:30

Opportunity. To support and bull

44:32

for the purpose. And also

44:34

could inspire for those people that

44:36

you know maybe don't value or

44:38

can't access the full design experience

44:40

that we offer. So yes, that's

44:43

what gets me very excited. I

44:45

mean that you saw the look of

44:48

Isis is a sick are the light

44:50

bulb went off like oh of course

44:52

of course that would be another step

44:54

in really setting out decisions. I pay

44:57

tax Me that working with your husband.

44:59

As someone who sounded my company with

45:01

a business partner where we had complimentary

45:03

skill sets not a ton of overlap,

45:06

I saw many other founders crash and

45:08

burn because they couldn't get through that

45:10

piece of that's obviously one knows that

45:12

you get along with your spouse. One

45:14

would help. But working the other

45:17

such a different thing. How do you

45:19

think through that piece of end? What

45:21

advice would you give someone who is

45:23

thinking about starting something? whether it's with

45:25

a romantic partner or a friend or

45:27

anyone vivid? Yeah. I think

45:29

you just hinted at at the

45:31

very clear delineation of roles and

45:33

responsibilities, and my husband I actually

45:35

have a lot of overlap, probably

45:37

in skills, but we from the

45:39

beginning were very clear about defining

45:41

his area of focus and minds.

45:43

I'm the Ceo of the business

45:46

and he owns the contractor network.

45:48

I don't play and not at

45:50

all. he owns it entirely. He

45:52

sent a really wonderful job and

45:54

he counsels me and big decisions

45:56

and I certainly don't make. Any

45:58

really good ones without him, we're very much

46:00

cofounders. that I think the really important thing

46:02

in the reason that we've been successful as

46:05

cofounders. In addition to cut parents and romantic

46:07

partners and life partners is just making sure that

46:09

he has his lane and I have my lane

46:11

had a turn it off sell at the end

46:13

of the day or do not as it's just

46:15

something that you love so much that you want

46:18

to talk about all the time or like being

46:20

in. Think about the who wants to talk about

46:22

what at what point in time like that can

46:24

be tricky. So it is

46:26

tricky. I always I'm thinking about work

46:29

and I always want to talk about

46:31

work. For me it's very creative process.

46:33

Adam loves to compartmentalize. At the end

46:36

of the day he goes surfing and

46:38

he says it off and we've had

46:40

to learn language. Actually that. Is respectful

46:43

of each other's interests and preference. Like we

46:45

go out on a day and it's my

46:47

inclination to talk about work. And he

46:49

uses very respectful language. Racist? Can we time box

46:51

this? I wanna hear you? Can you tell me

46:54

what is important to you? I want to listen

46:56

And then can we say we're not going to

46:58

talk about work? Can you get on the same

47:00

page? Can you get on my team? And then

47:03

I do. I have to respect the fact

47:05

that for his mental health or you know

47:07

just the way he wants to live in

47:09

his evenings weekends I. Have to be respectful of. It.

47:12

And. Loves that. Okay, so one of the

47:14

things that we like to talk that

47:16

on his podcast this mistake because the

47:18

all need some, but we don't always

47:20

own them publicly and I think there's

47:23

something really important about saying like this

47:25

is something that totally screwed up on

47:27

ends. You know what? We were able

47:29

to move through it and eat at

47:31

my life is another, the company isn't

47:33

over. I think it's fundamentally optimistic to

47:36

hear stories of people overcoming things suitable

47:38

with that mind and hoping that you

47:40

didn't tell me about a mistake. That

47:42

you've made at any point in career and what

47:44

you've learned from it. Yet

47:46

so partnership is incredibly important. I

47:48

didn't realize in the past to

47:51

make career how important it is

47:53

when you sign on to. join

47:55

up with somebody else and a

47:57

partnership and start a business you

47:59

are really, really entering into a

48:02

lot more than just working in

48:04

the same office, you know, having

48:06

the same deadlines. You have to

48:08

be incredibly alone. And I've had

48:11

to learn. And my

48:13

partnership with my husband is absolutely the

48:15

beneficiary of those learnings. Because I think

48:17

the reason that we are able to

48:19

partner so well is because I've had

48:22

to navigate that in the past. And

48:24

so today, as I said, we have

48:26

very clear delineation of roles and responsibilities.

48:28

We are very philosophically aligned on things

48:31

like the culture that we want to create,

48:33

outcomes that we want to drive, what's important

48:35

to us, things like owning our own time,

48:37

you know, really, really critical. I feel like

48:40

that's the ultimate success in life. If you

48:42

can be in the driver's seat and own

48:44

your own time and dictate how you spend

48:46

your time, that is absolutely successful. I'm a mom

48:49

of two kids, I'm able to see

48:51

them after school and still show up

48:53

and give full commitment to work. My

48:55

husband has the same value system. So that's

48:58

what I would say. So

49:00

a lot of the folks who listen

49:02

to this podcast are in their first

49:04

lives. They are interested in

49:06

leaving that first life and trying

49:08

something new and pivoting, whether that's

49:11

staying within the industry

49:13

that they're in or moving

49:15

industries. Maybe they like you

49:17

want to solve a problem or they

49:19

see a space for disruption, but they

49:21

haven't done it quite yet. And

49:24

maybe they're nervous about it. What advice would

49:26

you give someone who's sort of standing on

49:28

the precipice thinking about it, but just

49:30

hasn't crossed over quite yet? My

49:33

advice would be if you believe in

49:36

your heart of hearts, that this is

49:38

something that you want, that you want

49:40

to start something from scratch, then just

49:43

get started. You don't have to quit

49:45

your job. You don't have to jump

49:47

in with both feet. You

49:49

can dip a tin. You can, as I said

49:52

before, buy a domain. If you have an idea,

49:54

that's really critical, of course, to have

49:56

the idea to know what it is that you're going to

49:58

build. it,

50:00

make it a thing. And I think

50:02

you will know when it's time to

50:04

commit yourself fully. You will know. The

50:06

writing will be on the wall. It'll

50:08

be a gut instinct. It'll show up

50:10

in numbers somehow, but you will know.

50:12

Just get started. Worth case scenario,

50:14

you have a website. So be it. Worth

50:17

case scenario, you have a website. I've

50:19

had a lot of websites in my

50:21

life. So, yes. And you never

50:24

know. Maybe someday down the road, someone else will

50:26

want that website and then you'll make all the

50:28

money back. We just don't know. In the meantime,

50:30

don't wait to get started. It doesn't have to

50:32

be a huge commitment. Exactly. Okay.

50:34

So my last question is also

50:36

my favorite question, which is, if

50:38

you could go back in time

50:40

and speak with your younger self

50:42

and give younger Alison some career

50:45

advice, what would you say? Be

50:47

bold, be ambitious. I

50:50

think that a lot of young people

50:53

look around and they see people that

50:55

are further in their career that have

50:57

experienced success and they think there's some

50:59

magical recipe or some secret sauce, some

51:01

degree that they have, some experience that

51:04

they have. It doesn't exist. It doesn't

51:06

exist. So any imposter syndrome that I

51:08

felt along the way, any fear that

51:10

I had, I would tell my younger

51:12

self, let it dissipate because you are

51:14

just as suited to do this as

51:17

anybody else. And that's true of everybody

51:19

listening. I love that. And

51:22

it is so true. Sometimes it's just

51:24

like success comes when you just keep

51:26

going a hundred percent. Alison,

51:28

thank you so much for your time. This was

51:31

such a pleasure. I have been

51:33

really looking forward to chatting with

51:35

you because I have been watching

51:37

Yardzen for years. I think it's

51:40

such an interesting concept. I just

51:42

think what you're doing is all

51:44

kinds of amazing. And

51:46

I'm really, really glad that I got to hear the

51:48

backstory. So thank you for sharing it with me. It

51:51

is such a joy and a privilege to be on

51:53

your amazing podcast and so wonderful to meet you. Thank you

51:55

so much for having me. That

52:04

was the co-founder and CEO

52:06

of Yardzen, Allison Messner. For

52:09

more inspiring interviews with women like

52:12

Allison, head on over to

52:14

secondlifepod.com, where we have so many

52:16

more for you to peruse. If you

52:18

liked today's show, please subscribe on Apple

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52:46

Kerr. The show is at Second Life

52:48

Pod. Our DMs are always open. I'm

52:51

Hillary Kerr, and you've been listening to

52:53

Second Life. This

52:56

episode was produced by Hillary

52:58

Kerr, Summer Hammaris, and Natalie

53:00

Thurman. Our audio engineers

53:03

are at Treehouse Recording in Los

53:05

Angeles, California, and our

53:07

music is by Janus and Leahy. Welcome

53:14

to another round of Drawing Board

53:16

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53:18

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